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Bonus match, Darth Tyranus Vs Darth Vader.

TOR ftw.

That's good, but who wins these three fights?

TOR for the lose.

Tyranus is the top of this list here. Vader is closer to the bottom. Malgus beats Vader, I'd say - only because his conviction was steadily stronger, and Malgus was not held down by a heavy respirator, suit, and unlimber cybernetics.

Revan beats Dooku, Malgus beats Vader, Vader beats Dooku (again).

Vader wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader beats Dooku (again). You do know Maul was getting the better of Vader in Star Wars Tales, don't you??

Dooku was aboard a higher level than Maul (AoTC). The highest, in fact, Dooku and Windu were considered as not only the greatest of their age, but of any age (AoTC).

Dooku wounded Yoda in Dark Rendezvous - Windu defeated a character with nearly as much raw Force power as Yoda.

Vader's one prayer was his ability to stand against Starkiller II, but he trained minute weak-points Starkiller II's style just for that reason, and was able to fall into an unbreakable defense because of this.

Revan's strength in the Force was dwarfed by Vader's (Empire of Dreams documentary) who was very close to the Emperor, who was the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos (Refer to the Vitiate Vs Sidious thread).

A>B>C = fail

Originally posted by Nephthys
A>B>C = fail What?

Tyranus' power level was similar to Vader's, almost equal, as before Anakin let lose in their battle on the Invisible Hand Dooku was able to Force kick Anakin halfway across the level whilst Force choking Obi-wan like a helpless puppy - then proceeding to sling him across the entire Throne Room and in a split second rip an observation deck off its hinges to trap the unconscious Jedi Master.

In the CW Mace Windu butchered an entire army of super battle droids - decommissioned a super-weapon large and powerful enough to cause seismic disturbances, before proceeding to Force jump across the plains - landing in front of a far away onlooker. Keep in mind Mace Windu was bested in his duels with Dooku only 10 years prior to this event, and strictly among the Jedi of the PT era he was far ahead of all but Dooku and Yoda before Ani began growing by leaps and bounds after TCW.

Tyranus, Vader, Vader.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
, Vader. Don't see him beating Malgus or Tyranus.

I don't see him beating Malgus because, although he may have slightly better TK capabilities - he can't use Force lightning due to his circuitry, Sidious designed the controls of his respirator to be susceptible to a critical strike, he has less motility and is more easily off-balanced when compared to his template Malgus - and Malgus is fully devoted to the dark, and therefore his powers come close to Vader's - just like Starkiller II.

I don't see him beating Tyranus because that little lightsaber is going to get through Vader's defenses very quickly as a result of Tyranus having immensely superior balance and range of motion - and comparable strength in the Force to Vader, more so than Malgus and Starkiller II judging from his "Force contest" with Yoda and his general dismissal of opponents like Quinlan Vos and Obi-wan Kenobi with straight TK.

Tyranus is a veritable giant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A>B>C = fail Oh, I get it.

C = fail, so A (OT) and B (PT) must be greater than failure C (TOR).

While the original trilogy A is greater than B, the Prequel Trilogy.

K, that makes sense. It's all based of the OT anyway.

Tyranus beats Revan with ease. Vader beats Malgus after a good fight.

I want specifics on that Empire of Dreams quote. When is Revan so much as compared to Vader, much less indicated to be less powerful?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I want specifics on that Empire of Dreams quote. When is Revan so much as compared to Vader, much less indicated to be less powerful? I was referring to Vader being 80% of Sidious, who by feats and accolades is above Vitiate and Plagueis.

The quote is made in ignorance of them as it predates the depiction of both. Sidious didn't exceed either by RotJ and wasn't comparable until DE. And that's being generous in the case of Vitiate.

Tales seems to have a higher opinion of Maul's power than most things, Vader has many showings that quite surpass Maul's.

Compare Maul vs Qui-gon and Obi-wan, to Vader taking on entire groups of Jedi masters and coming out on top.

Originally posted by Q99
Tales seems to have a higher opinion of Maul's power than most things, Vader has many showings that quite surpass Maul's.

Compare Maul vs Qui-gon and Obi-wan, to Vader taking on entire groups of Jedi masters and coming out on top.
If you're referring to Purge, only one of them was a master and he was sub-par to either Obi-wan or the then more powerful Qui-gon Jinn. Vader also lost miserably, after Vader took advantage of one of Jedi on that team killing another (if that hadn't happened Vader would have been toast) - and he still had three more Jedi he failed to defeat before the Clones showed up.

Maul was caught by surprise, the character's inattentiveness was demonstrated by Sidious in Episode I Journal: Darth Maul.

Actually, there were several masters in the group. These members include Tsui Choi, Koffi Arana, Ma'kis'shaalas, Jastus Farr, Roblio Darte, and Shadday Potkin. The others were knights.

Even so, I'm inclined to agree that Vader really got overwhelmed in that battle, even when he had quite a few distinct advantages over the team. Another thing that should be noted though--This was nowhere near Vader's peak.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This was nowhere near Vader's peak.

Vader suffered from an inner conflict that prevented him from letting lose his full power.

In that fight he was emotionally compromised, made many tactical errors, and his lightsaber skills weren't fully developed. Over the years his tactics and lightsaber style will have improve marginally, as to whether or not he'd take the group or Maul, it could go either way - as would many of his fights. More than not I'll give you Vader over Maul easy, and RoTS Kenobi with major difficulty; but not Malgus or Tyranus.

Revan vs Dooku = Revan
Malgus vs Vader = Malgus
Vader vs Dooku = Vader

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan vs Dooku = Revan
Vader vs Dooku = VaderWould you mind arguing against my points in the last page then?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The quote is made in ignorance of them as it predates the depiction of both. Sidious didn't exceed either by RotJ and wasn't comparable until DE. And that's being generous in the case of Vitiate.

I concede that Vader being 80% of Sidious' natural power level is different than him being 80% of his natural power level when supplemented by his union with the dark side at the time - I also agree that what's been learned through developments since then have affected the relevance in the way I've described.

Still, none of Revan's TK feats consolidate him as being above Vader due to exploits in TFU II - note Starkiller II, like Nyriss, was able to incinerate opponents in game-play and his lightning was even more powerful in incinerating fighters during the game's en-combat sequences. Vader was described in the book and seen in game repelling that Force lightning.

As for Revan's saber feats, yes he defeated armies, but so did Windu in CW, and between Windu and Tyranus, Windu was stated to be the lesser swordsman in the duels 10 years earlier - yet at around the same time in AoTC Yoda explains that Tyranus is stronger than before "Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side I sense in you." Yoda says this during his Force battle with the Dark Lord. This is a big deal, because Yoda's TK powers surpass demonstrably surpass that of Vader's at any point (CW), but I'll get to that later. AoTC states that Tyranus and Windu were equals as of the Clone Wars, implying their relative but unique abilities. So even though Tyranus and Windu are equal, it is perhaps unfair to say he's capable of repeating Windu's feat - and contradicted by him surrendering to an army of mercs TCW, yet this can be explained by Tyranus' lightsaber form - which is not as good against blasters, but better in 1 on 1 duels, which is what he's having with Revan here.

Tyranus has proven that his TK is nearly on par with Vader's, easily dismissing the relatively powerful Jedi Master Quinlan Vos, who has been shown to best Nightsisters, characters Luke struggled between RoTJ and HtTH, in a flashback. Tyranus has been able to apply TK to possibly greater extents than Vader in momentarily getting a hold of Kenobi, though the novelization states that Kenobi and Anakin were almost tripping over each other and not really in sync, this might have had a play in that feat.

All in all, I'd say Tyranus has the tools to beat Revan and Vader.

Now you can argue exaggeration due to gameplay, and argue that the novelizations don't count because the same events are depicted different than from the movies. Yes, you can argue exaggeration but they don't hold precedence over the novelizations or games unless Lucas directly comes in there and says that particular thing is different, the LFL page you provided does not say otherwise.

Besides, what fun is there in limiting the PT era when stacking against the TOR era?

Originally posted by Oneness
What?

Its a phrase people have around here, about why thinking ABC works is wrong. Just because A is superior to B and B is superior to C, doesn't make A superior to C.

Just because Maul "beat" Vader doesn't mean Vader would lose to Dooku. Vader has the TK ability to stand up to Dooku and even probably overwhelm him a little, since his feats are generally better. And Dooku's lightning abilities are too underdeveloped to pose a threat to Vaders armor imo.

Lightsaber combat is tough, but Vader has the skill to stand up to Dooku. Dooku's style is all about precision and positioning, but against an opponent as skilled as Vader he'd have trouble finding an opening to exploit. Vader meanwhile is strong enough that he'd pose a significant problem to Dooku because of this. Dooku was floored by Savage Opress' sheer strength and was overpowered by Anakin.

You shouldn't underestimate Vader's raw power. Someone compared it to that of Kar Vastor, saying that Vader dwarfed Vastor in power and Vastor was powerful enough to give Mace Windu a serious fight. He's crushed tanks, broken unbreakable metals, blocked blasterbolts with force shields, shook entire buildings with his power and performed numerous extremely powerful feats.

^^^

Nicely put.

Dooku represents a benchmark point for Force-users in the mythos. He is powerful and skilled but he is no longer in the "exceptional" category of the mythos holistically or so it seems.

Yes, Dooku was superior to majority in PT period but holistic picture of the mythos is very different from PT (only) representation.

This being said, Dooku is likely to put up a decent fight but Vader is superior.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its a phrase people have around here, about why thinking ABC works is wrong. Just because A is superior to B and B is superior to C, doesn't make A superior to C.

Black and white fallacy. There's a gray area called implication. If person a can do this and this, and it didn't work against person b, it's implied they won't work for c either.



I never said that, I said Maul had the upper-hand in combat, and Vader's power in the Force didn't do anything, he had to rely on the element of surprise.



No, but the way in which Vader had to win strongly implies the hypothetical effectiveness of Tyranus' particular skill set, and the level of his overall set, against Vader.

NOW THAT THAT'S OVER WITH:



Examples?



Sith lightning is Sith lightning, power level is power level. He's had enough to time to catch one up to the other.



Based on RoTJ and his point of view narrative of having a combination of fear and humility when facing his son?



It's also about balance and using his opponent's momentum against them. Vader's balance sucks, his momentum is all he has, and Dooku as far better speed and agility to utilize said speed with.



Not even close.



Anakin also did not have as much weight behind him, and did not need to rely on as much putting weight in his attacks to generate power.



One very important thing that you're forgetting is that Vader's defense sucks when he's winded, both Luke and Starkiller managed to wear him out, Dooku tooled Master Kenobi and Padawan Anakin before proceeding to go toe to toe with Grand Master Yoda on even footing.

I don't think Vader has the ability to beat even RoTS Kenobi, much less Tyranus.

Remember, according to Plagueis speed translates to power, Anakin had far better control and agility when using Force speed against Tyranus - explaining why either Tyranus or Anakin could produce enough power to match or exceed Vader blow for blow.

Originally posted by Oneness
Black and white fallacy. There's a gray area called implication. If person a can do this and this, and it didn't work against person b, it's implied they won't work for c either.

When it comes to lightsaber combat, there's enough complexity that implication is not generally enough.

Originally posted by Oneness
I never said that, I said Maul had the upper-hand in combat, and Vader's power in the Force didn't do anything, he had to rely on the element of surprise.

I don't recall Vader really using the Force against him. Therefore I call PIS.

Anyway, this whole point is slightly irrelevant since it wasn't ever confirmed that it really was Maul or not.

Originally posted by Oneness
No, but the way in which Vader had to win strongly implies the hypothetical effectiveness of Tyranus' particular skill set, and the level of his overall set, against Vader.

Nah.

Originally posted by Oneness
Examples?

Here are some of Vader's raw power and mastery in TK:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334419
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334420

^ Here he force crushes a jedi's heart.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3094868

^Here he force crushes a tie fighter.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191489
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191490

^Here he uses the force to levitate and rip apart a giant droid.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416107

^Here Vader force throws a huge Vehicle. Notice how small the people are to the vehicle who are hanging from it.


http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334391
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334392

^Here Vader force throws a large stone that dwarfs him in size.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139131
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139132


^Here Vader uses the force to collapse an entire cathedral on himself and others, and he survives it, so his durability shouldn't be in question.

These scans of Vader's TK feats do not even include his feats from TFU, and most of them were done very casually. He's also shook a 7 story building to its foundations just by getting pissed off, shook the walls of the Jedi Temple and he destroys a material scientists had deemed unbreakable in Death Star. And theres this:

"Instead of following up his first move with a direct assault, however, Vader did something completely unexpected. He just stood there, ignoring her as casually as if she didn't exist. As she stared, he inspected her lightsaber thoughtfully; then, holding it out at arm's length, he reactivated it. The crimson spire of destructive energy pointed straight up from his gloved fist. At first, nothing seemed to be happening. Then Sing realized that the shaft was getting brighter. Its brilliance intensified until she had to raise a hand to shield her eyes from the all-but-blinding scarlet radiance. The refulgence dazzled her eyes, overwhelming everything else; the street, the buildings, the wrecked landspeeder. Only Vader remained somehow visible; standing there, holding the weapon easily, seemingly unaffected by the blade's terrible radiance. The familiar deep hum that was the weapon's identifying sound rose in pitch, higher and higher, until it tore at her hearing. And then, in a final burst of screaming incandescence, the lightsaber's shaft vanished.

Sing stared in sheer disbelief. Her eyes were capable of adapting much more rapidly to changes in ambient light than were a human's. A couple of blinks and the afterimages cleared, normal vision returning almost immediately. Vader stood motionless, the weapon's hilt still gripped in his outstretched fist. She could see a tiny wisp of smoke curling from the emitter.

He had overloaded the lightsaber's energy crystal through the Force. Sing prided herself on her knowledge of weaponry and their individual strengths and weaknesses. It was her profession, after all. But she had never seen or heard of such a thing before."

Originally posted by Oneness
Sith lightning is Sith lightning, power level is power level. He's had enough to time to catch one up to the other.

And feats are feats. And he has demonstrated no feats with lightning that make me think he could damage Vaders suit when Galen Destroyed-an-AT-AT-with-lightning Marek did not manage to with his despite hitting him with it.

Originally posted by Oneness
Based on RoTJ and his point of view narrative of having a combination of fear and humility when facing his son?

Whats your point?

Originally posted by Oneness
It's also about balance and using his opponent's momentum against them. Vader's balance sucks, his momentum is all he has, and Dooku as far better speed and agility to utilize said speed with.

I wouldn't underestimate Vaders speed and agilty. He's leapt straight over blows and was fast enough to blitz lesser Jedi even as of RoDV. His balance does not suck as much as you think it does. It seems to me that you're getting most of this from RoDV while ignoring that at the end of that book Vader dramatically improves his ability to use his new body.

Also theres this:

"It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda. The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart."

Originally posted by Oneness
Not even close.

ezBMeNMP9Fk

10 onwards. Floored and disarmed.

Originally posted by Oneness
Anakin also did not have as much weight behind him, and did not need to rely on as much putting weight in his attacks to generate power.

And Vader does? His mechanical arms add a lot of strength. He's ripped durasteel doors off their hinges before.

Originally posted by Oneness
One very important thing that you're forgetting is that Vader's defense sucks when he's winded, both Luke and Starkiller managed to wear him out, Dooku tooled Master Kenobi and Padawan Anakin before proceeding to go toe to toe with Grand Master Yoda on even footing.

I don't think Vader has the ability to beat even RoTS Kenobi, much less Tyranus.

Weren't you talking about Vader having an unbeatable defense? Dooku won't be able to wear him down, since he does not pack power into his hits and his stamina is not great (he's breathing hard after fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan).

Lol at Dooku being on even footing with Yoda. Cuz its not as if he ran away or anything.

Sids ran away too.

ARE YOU SAYING SIDS IS WEAKER THAN YODA?

No, because in the end it was Yoda who actually ended up running away.

BUT SIDS RAN FIRST. AT LEAST DOOKU PUT UP A FIGHT.

DOOKU > SIDS BY NEPH'S OWN ADMISSION!



EDIT: It's been awhile since I watched that Savage/Ventress + Dooku fight. Dooku may have been knocked back, but besides that he was dancing around both of the fighters a lot better than Anakin or Obi-Wan was. Savage seems to lack any kind of finesse with the blade, but his raw power is something else. Too bad he didn't have any time to develop.

@Neph, I concede that Tyranus and Vader have the ability to beat each other. None of them are really that much ahead to consolidate a win 100% of the time, and that in the PT/OT canon any seasoned master of the Force with enough raw potential has a shot - especially when the Force is with them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's been awhile since I watched that Savage/Ventress + Dooku fight. Dooku may have been knocked back, but besides that he was dancing around both of the fighters a lot better than Anakin or Obi-Wan was.

Exactly, it's seems by this point Savage and Opress had a unique skill set to put up a significantly better fight than AoTC Anakin + Obi-wan. Also, I'd say a careful Dooku would have eventually ended bested both Ventress and Opress had that fight not been cut short judging by the fact that Savage - in an overpowered Force rage stupor - was hacking at Ventress.

By his own admission, Maul was just better.
"I'm not like you, never....was....#croke"

In straight up H2H, I'd bet on Savage above most people in the PT, really. Maul is more of the martial artist, but Savage is just retarded strong. I like the idea that Savage/Maul is a dark mirror of Obi/Ani. Too bad that wasn't fleshed out enough.

As for Dooku, while not stomping on Sidious' or Yoda's level, he certainly is more consistently better at dealing with foes that regularly challenge the Jedi duo. Ventress has many Jedi kills to her name, including masters, and has stomped Obi, Ani, and Kit Fisto before. Savage, while not as dangerous to the duo, has put them on their toes in a confined environment. I think he has generally been restricted by environment in most of their fights (closed areas, or those floating platforms) so his true potential I have yet to see.

If I had to make a tier for Dooku, it'd be on par with Mace but below Yoda and Sids. I wouldn't put Obi-Wan or Anakin near either on a consistent basis. Maul and Savage are probably near to the Jedi duo, but Savage is the weak link and therefore they fall short.

Keen point to realize is that when people like Yoda, Sids or Dooku employ the Force in fights, it seems to be pretty stomp-worthy. Mace too, for that matter.

Opress's ridiculous physical strength and rage enhanced Tk gave Dooku trouble, but he simply wasn't skilled enough to pose a real threat to Dooku. Especially not on his own.

Vader however has similar physical strength, and his regular Tk is easily a match for Opress's rage enahnced Tk. But unlike Opress, Vader is a very skilled Lightsaber duelist, and has spent decades mastering the Force.

That's what makes me agree with Neph here, that Vader may have exactly what it takes to best Count Dooku.

^^^

This.

Vader overloading that lightsaber is pretty insane. As I recall the Coruscant Nights trilogy was very high in terms of powerlevels.

And it only takes place a few months after RotS. mmm

I think it's more likely that cyber-Vader was able to channel his anger and tap more of his rage and raw power than his RotS form could on a regular basis. So yeah, he's a huge contender for knocking the Count out and I think may even edge out as superior.

I put Vader on a completely higher tier to Dooku myself. It goes:

Tier 1: Sidious (Vitiate, Nihilus etc)

Tier 2: Vader (Malgus, Krayt etc)

Tier 3: Dooku

You're probably right. Vader is very comparable to Malgus and Dooku doesn't match up as well.

Thanks.

Cue Legend dogpiling me over comparing Malgus to Vader.

Vader deserves some newfound respect now that he has something on the table other than being black and choking British guys all the time. His OT showings were underwhelming.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I put Vader on a completely higher tier to Dooku myself. It goes:

Tier 1: Sidious (Vitiate, Nihilus etc)

Tier 2: Vader (Malgus, Krayt etc)

Tier 3: Dooku



Hmm, think Vader could best Dooku, but not sure I'd put him a whole level above the Count.

Dooku's still the guy who stomps the likes of ROTS Kenobi with incredible ease, able to go toe to toe with Yoda for a short time, has been placed as Windu's equal by numerous sources and named by Yoda as being the Temple's most learned student.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vader deserves some newfound respect now that he has something on the table other than being black and choking British guys all the time. His OT showings were underwhelming.


Still even in the OT, the Force choke over the view screen and blocking laser bolts with his hands were pretty impressive even looking at the whole sage.

Did they confirm that the blaster bolts were deflected by virtue of his Force powers and now his Truckasaurus hands?

I think this probably confirms it:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334391-new+picture+%2824%29.jpg

Its obviously not something beyond him.

Geez is that a Force shield? What comic is that?

Is that a.... Magneto shield? Wtf.

Didn't you guys actually check out those images that SIDIOUS 66 posted in the Exar Kun vs Vader thread? I reposted them on the last page. >:T

Some of them didn't work for me last time. Magento shield, srsly. Wtf.

To be fair, people have done better than that. Jacen for instance deflected gunship fire (turbolasers?) with a Force bubble. Even though I hate him, that was an impressive feat.

DE Luke did something comparable too. It is not a noob power though. Makes me wonder how much knowledge he naturally learned versus studied.

Revan defeats Dooku...easily...no contest..
Malgus defeats Vader.....

simple...don't have to write much....
I mean...he's Revan reborn...and before me you are nothing...nuff said...
A Force Field??? Bane breaks through those with eaze...

Malgus understands and has over come Vader's insecurity with his armor and his attachments...
plus Malgus is a better warrior and military leader....so Malgus...