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who'll win? please give reasons.

Molecule Man wins, because I'm not insane .

Molecule Man should win.

Reason being, he was more powerful than every cosmic being combined in MU.

Lucifer doesn't have that level of power.

Been done many times, shouldn't be done anymore.

I have no problem with Owen winning, but I am curious how he would do so?

The best feats I remember from Owen(correct me if I'm wrong) are:
-Easily fixing multiversal damage Beyonder had caused.
-Discharging a blast that could have supposedly destroyed billions of dimensions.
-Causing multiversal tremors in his battle with Beyonder.
-Shielding himself and the heroes from a blast from Beyonder that stretched across the entire multiverse.

Don't get me wrong, Owen's feats are very impressive. However, at his peak Lucifer was capable of effortlessly tanking/warping a big bang(a multiversal big bang, in fact) detonating in his face:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133973_1.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133974_2.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133975_Lucifer_013_2001_digital-Empire_020.jpg
ie. it would require a multiverse-busting++ attack to have a shot at harming peak Lucifer.

Additionally, Dream(who is a multiversal force in his own right) stated that Lucifer was FAR more powerful than himself:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133998_3.jpg

This statement was cemented when Dream outright admitted that he was scared of Lucifer:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17134001_4.jpg
ie. Lucifer>>>multiversal entities.


However, if superiority to the cosmic hierarchy(inc. LT) constitutes a battle feat, then Owen should win I guess... /shrug

Originally posted by Cogito
Been done many times, shouldn't be done anymore. Whoops. Yeah, you're right.

Owen also gathered the power of the whole multiverse to put that shield on his house iirc, but point still stands: being more powerful than LT (although, imo, he weaker back then, he was still above conceptual/abstract beings) and the other cosmic beings combined, should give Owen the win.

Besides, Lucifer has at the very least low showings (being hurt by Gabriel's sword, not able to leave Yahweh's creation, unable to stop the basanos' attack on his cosmos, leaving Musubi to deal with the host of heaven ........... for some reason, among other things), Owen does not, at least not the version we're using (meaning the period between Secret Wars 1 #10 and his retcon in FF #319)

Originally posted by operator616
Owen also gathered the power of the whole multiverse to put that shield on his house iirc, but point still stands: being more powerful than LT (although, imo, he weaker back then, he was still above conceptual/abstract beings) and the other cosmic beings combined, should give Owen the win.

Besides, Lucifer has at the very least low showings (being hurt by Gabriel's sword, not able to leave Yahweh's creation, unable to stop the basanos' attack on his cosmos, leaving Musubi to deal with the host of heaven ........... for some reason, among other things), Owen does not, at least not the version we're using (meaning the period between Secret Wars 1 #10 and his retcon in FF #319) It's not in Owen's character to duplicate those very situational low showings, though(he's not the brightest fella around, after all)-- so I don't think they matter that much. He'd almost certainly try blasting Lucifer to death, which I don't think would be a full-proof tactic for reasons I already mentioned.

Like I said: I have no problem with him winning. I just want to know how he does? Or do you think he wins mainly because he was stated to be superior to LT(and co.)?

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: I have no problem with him winning. I just want to know how he does?
He wins by annihilating Lucifer. Easy.

How, though? With blasts?

What blast did he unleash that was superior to what Lucifer has already tanked/warped?

Originally posted by Galan007
I just want to know how he does? Or do you think he wins mainly because he was stated to be superior to LT(and co.)?

Yeah, i think he wins mainly because of that, but it wasn't just a statement (which is also backed by his bio),it was shown pretty clearly imo.

Owen also managed to direct the Beyonder's entire energies to fill the Beyond-realm, which dwarfed the mainstream multiverse.

Originally posted by Galan007
How, though? With blasts?

What blast did he unleash that was superior to what Lucifer has already tanked/warped?
What exactly did Lucifer tank that was so impressive? Michael's "Big Bang" blast? Who cares? Last time I checked that was Lucifer's thing. "God's Will" shaped "God's Power" and formed a new creation.

MM would annihilate Lucifer's creation WITH Lucifer in it. He'd destroy Yahweh too.

Originally posted by operator616
Yeah, i think he wins mainly because of that, but it wasn't just a statement (which is also backed by his bio),it was shown pretty clearly imo.

Owen also managed to direct the Beyonder's entire energies to fill the Beyond-realm, which dwarfed the mainstream multiverse. Cool beans. Like I said, not opposed to the notion, just was curious how, is all.

Originally posted by zopzop
What exactly did Lucifer tank that was so impressive? Michael's "Big Bang" blast? Who cares? Last time I checked that was Lucifer's thing. "God's Will" shaped "God's Power" and formed a new creation.

MM would annihilate Lucifer's creation WITH Lucifer in it. He'd destroy Yahweh too. You cannot answer a question with a question, dooder.

LM

Originally posted by Galan007
However, at his peak Lucifer was capable of effortlessly tanking/warping a big bang(a multiversal big bang, in fact) detonating in his face:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133973_1.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133974_2.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133975_Lucifer_013_2001_digital-Empire_020.jpg
ie. it would require a multiverse-busting++ attack to have a shot at harming peak Lucifer.

It's debatable whether that feat is a purely durability feat or also an energy manipulation feat. Because a vastly weakened Lucifer(who was getting his sh1t pushed in by inferior blasts of the Demiurgos from a similarly vastly weakened Michael) survived a similar blast when Michael died and transferred his power to Elaine, who went kaboom because of her inexperience at dealing with such vast energies.

Originally posted by Galan007
However, if superiority to the cosmic hierarchy(inc. LT) constitutes a battle feat, then Owen should win I guess... /shrug:
You do realize you made the exact same argument for Lucifer? In the exact same post no less:
Originally posted by Galan007

Additionally, Dream(who is a multiversal force in his own right) stated that Lucifer was FAR more powerful than himself:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17133998_3.jpg

This statement was cemented when Dream outright admitted that he was scared of Lucifer:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17134001_4.jpg
ie. Lucifer>>>multiversal entities.

Originally posted by Epicurus
It's debatable whether that feat is a purely durability feat or also an energy manipulation feat. Because a vastly weakened Lucifer(who was getting his sh1t pushed in by inferior blasts of the Demiurgos from a similarly vastly weakened Michael) survived a similar blast when Michael died and transferred his power to Elaine, who went kaboom because of her inexperience at dealing with such vast energies. Hence why I said: "tanking/warping"(ie. tanking or warping), as it could have been either one.

Originally posted by Epicurus
You do realize you made the exact same argument for Lucifer? In the exact same post no less: Duh?

I posted those comment 'feats' because the same type of 'feat' had already been mentioned on Beyonder's behalf.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hence why I said: "tanking/warping"(ie. tanking or warping), as it could have been either one.

Point noted. On a second note, the likelihood of the kabooming Demiurgos being maniped is far more likely than it being tanked outright though.
Originally posted by Galan007
Duh?

I posted those comment 'feats' because the same type of 'feat' had already been mentioned on Beyonder's behalf.
Nobody had mentioned those feats prior to you posting the dialogue with Dream etc. I want to say "I told ya so" for some reason, but I'll restrain myself from doing so for the moment.

Originally posted by operator616
Owen also gathered the power of the whole multiverse to put that shield on his house iirc, but point still stands: being more powerful than LT (although, imo, he weaker back then, he was still above conceptual/abstract beings) and the other cosmic beings combined, should give Owen the win.

Besides, Lucifer has at the very least low showings (being hurt by Gabriel's sword, not able to leave Yahweh's creation, unable to stop the basanos' attack on his cosmos, leaving Musubi to deal with the host of heaven ........... for some reason, among other things), Owen does not, at least not the version we're using (meaning the period between Secret Wars 1 #10 and his retcon in FF #319) Didn't he get almost beaten to death by Dr Doom in that time period?

Originally posted by Epicurus
Point noted. On a second note, the likelihood of the kabooming Demiurgos being maniped is far more likely than it being tanked outright though.I can agree with that.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Nobody had mentioned those feats prior to you posting the dialogue with Dream etc. I want to say "I told ya so" for some reason, but I'll restrain myself from doing so for the moment. You *could* say that, but it'd just make you look like a buffoon for trying to put your own little 'twist' on my posts.

This was the comment operator made before I even posted in this thread:
Originally posted by operator616
Reason being, he was more powerful than every cosmic being combined in MU.

By his own accord, operator was referring mostly to the statements made regarding Owen's powerset-- hence why I posted 'comment feats' on Lucifer's behalf in response(note that I never tried using those comment feats for anything other than to show people that Lucifer also has them.)

Seriously, why are you acting like you know what I meant... More than I know what I meant? It's silly, and borders on trolling.

Originally posted by Galan007
I can agree with that.

You *could* say that, but it'd just make you look like a buffoon for trying to put your own little 'twist' on my posts.

Basically saying, he didn't post any feats. You were the one who brought it up.
Originally posted by Galan007

This was the comment operator made before I even posted in this thread:


By his own accord, operator was referring mostly to the statements made regarding Owen's powerset-- hence why I posted 'comment feats' on Lucifer's behalf, in response.

Seriously, why are you acting like you know what I meant... More than I know what I meant? It's silly, and borders on trolling.
Operator elaborated upon it in the other posts. You were the one who clung to this idea that MM wins based off superiority towards the Marvel Cosmic Hierarchy, as seen by your attempt to correlate that with Lucifer's superiority to an Endless.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Basically saying, he didn't post any feats. You were the one who brought it up.

Operator elaborated upon it in the other posts. You were the one who clung to this idea that MM wins based off superiority towards the Marvel Cosmic Hierarchy, as seen by your attempt to correlate that with Lucifer's superiority to an Endless. facepalm

TGK is NEVER wrong, people. The man knows your posts better than you do!!!!!

Originally posted by Galan007
facepalm

TGK is NEVER wrong, people. The man knows your posts better than you do!!!!!
I am glad you finally accepted this undeniable fact. Now you too can see the light of the Final Truth: I am above all.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Dr.-Evil-Sarcastic-Right-In-Austin-Powers-Gifs.gif

http://i.imgur.com/bxby3K8.gif

You posted a Han Solo gif. My faith in you has been restored.

If it's a fight for raw power and back straight, Molecule Man would win. If it's a fight wit and handling, Lucifer would win. Molecule Man is not smart enough to outwit a master manipulator as Morningstar.

Anyone would be hard pressed to prove MM would overpower Lucifer, as Galan has already shown Lucifer tanking and manipulating God's infinite energy point blank.

So what we have here is one of comics' most prominent manipulators against a guy who could probably be manipulated by a poo-flinging chimp in to killing himself.

Originally posted by Cogito
Anyone would be hard pressed to prove MM would overpower Lucifer, as Galan has already shown Lucifer tanking and manipulating God's infinite energy point blank.

So what we have here is one of comics' most prominent manipulators against a guy who could probably be manipulated by a poo-flinging chimp in to killing himself.

iow, this guy takes owen:

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Shit_b45621_2851629.gif

Especially that guy

Originally posted by Cogito
Anyone would be hard pressed to prove MM would overpower Lucifer, as Galan has already shown Lucifer tanking and manipulating God's infinite energy point blank.

So what we have here is one of comics' most prominent manipulators against a guy who could probably be manipulated by a poo-flinging chimp in to killing himself.


Morningstar wins.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Didn't he get almost beaten to death by Dr Doom in that time period?

Even though that was technically a retconned Owen (because it happened 1 issue before the retcon and Enlgehart already had it in mind), the answer is still no.

Doom attacked Owen, and thought he killed him but MM's powers automatically saved him:

http://i.imgur.com/z6lKC93.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/qNvx9bO.jpg?1

Owen was presumably inhibiting his power because he wanted to live a normal life (and that's why he didn't want the other heroes knowing that his powers were still active after he supposedly burned them out while saving the earth along with the Silver Surfer), but when Doom attacked him, his powers were automatically activated and saved him.