On Free Will

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Stealth Moose
The idea of free will or an absence of hard determinism or inescapable fate is an interesting real world concept, but I wanted to discuss it within the context of Star Wars EU. To clarify, this is using both EU concepts and the movies where available to flesh out this idea. Ask yourself: does free will exist in this mythos? Why or why not?

Consider the following examples -


The Chosen One prophecy
The Sith'ari
Yoda's philosophy on the future
Scourge's visions


Also consider the ways in which the Jedi and Sith both view this problem. It could be argued that the Jedi are passive to fate, but the Sith claim to be fated to win. On the flip side, the Jedi beleive in self actualization and development, while Sith seem to follow a kind of self-determination.

Use any examples you can to make this an engaging discussion!

Q99
There seems to be some free will, some determinism- The Force tries to direct things one way, but things don't have to go down that path. The Chosen One prophecy was kinda wrong, it ended up *really* being Luke finishing the job.

Scourge's prophecies only happened because he chose to self-fulfill them, I'd say.

The Sith'ari, well, it's vague enough that it could be described as, "A thing various Sith will try to do occasionally."

Oneness
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The idea of free will or an absence of hard determinism or inescapable fate is an interesting real world concept, but I wanted to discuss it within the context of Star Wars EU. To clarify, this is using both EU concepts and the movies where available to flesh out this idea. Ask yourself: does free will exist in this mythos? Why or why not?

Consider the following examples -


The Chosen One prophecy
The Sith'ari
Yoda's philosophy on the future
Scourge's visions


Also consider the ways in which the Jedi and Sith both view this problem. It could be argued that the Jedi are passive to fate, but the Sith claim to be fated to win. On the flip side, the Jedi beleive in self actualization and development, while Sith seem to follow a kind of self-determination.

Use any examples you can to make this an engaging discussion!

I mean look at Anakin Solo becoming Caedus and altering the course of the cosmos.

I have to agree with the Sith in that there is free will - but actualizing free will is limited by, well, the limitations of the individual...lol

Revan and Mace Windu demonstrated the superior power of Potentium - and what using the dark and the light can achieve. Plagueis was on to something as well, I think.

Anakin Skywalker never really had a chance to think about it, he went insane in Ep. II - and rightfully so...long before Revan. I mean, can you imagine being a slave in a desert, then being a celibate Jedi was absolutely no normal social interaction or attention other than for beasting other aspiring Jedi and impressing your trigger happy master (Kenobi), for 10 years? The Jedi really messed him up, before going into war like a bunch of automatons following the senate's every command. Anakin's life is depressing as ****.

Luke's even more so, he basically gave up his own will and did not act for himself - yet he ended up killing and slaughtered Sith and Yuuzhan Vong like a mad man.

Nephthys

Q99
For an interesting bit on Prophecies, read the KotoR comic's first arc. The Jedi Covenant strongly believes it's following the will of the force and heavily relies on seers, and acts to prevent a vision they saw. In reality, they probably weren't doing anything like the force's plan for them, and Zayne helped to be their undoing, aided by some less-forced visions of his own.


One of the things in favor of free will is the mere existence of the Sith- The Force seems to favor the light side pretty consistently when push comes to shove, and it also has huge millennia-long periods where the Jedi are largely uncontested. Yet the Sith keep popping up because people have their own desires.

psmith81992
I approach free will in the mythos like I approach it in real. Let's the force with "God". My long held belief is that there are two answers to free will vs. determinism. As far as fallible humans are concerned, we have free will. As far as an all powerful, omnisicent god/the force/father/son/daughter are concerned, everything is predetermined from their point of view. So is free will an illusion or can we really say it exists because we are fallible and because we cannot comprehend infallible beings?

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by psmith81992
I approach free will in the mythos like I approach it in real. Let's the force with "God". My long held belief is that there are two answers to free will vs. determinism. As far as fallible humans are concerned, we have free will. As far as an all powerful, omnisicent god/the force/father/son/daughter are concerned, everything is predetermined from their point of view. So is free will an illusion or can we really say it exists because we are fallible and because we cannot comprehend infallible beings?

This doesn't strike me as very clear. Can you elaborate?

Neph and Q99 have some very good points and extra kudos for using canon sources.

Also, Oneness, your post almost implies we should pity Anakin for being raised from a desert slave to an intergalatic monk-policeman who gets to live among virtuous paragons in relative wealth and comfort and has ten years of training before he has his first major fall. Not to get derailed, but Anakin had it ideal compared to most, and he was an endearing child before he was accepted in.

Nephthys
Yeah Anakin sure had it tough, being freed from slavery, being one of the most powerful men alive, having great friends and colleagues and getting to bang Natalie Portman. The unlucky s.o.b.

Stealth Moose
I would bleed tears in this case.

Let me raise another question for discussion: Is the Force itself a form of fate or deterministic all-pervading power?

Nephthys
Both? The Will of the Force is a very real thing and there is distinct feeling that events need to occur as they are fated to.

The prophecy of the Chosen One was made centuries before Plagueis and Palpatine unbalanced the Force and pushed the Force into defending itself by spawning Anakin. The prophecy was only made because they performed that ritual. And the prophecy necessitates that they would perform it, otherwise the prophecy would never have been made. Therefore, even before they were born it was decided that they would perform that ritual, that the Chosen One would be born and that he would bring balance to the Force. And remember, the prophecy came from the Force in the first place. The whole thing is just a massive self-fulfilling loop.

psmith81992
We're human beings. We're fallible. We don't know the future nor can we predict it, so to us, we have free will. The force/God is an infallible being or beings who know the past, present and future. They know all the decisions you are going to make. So from an omnipresent standpoint, free will is an illusion, but from our "fallible" human stand point, it is very much real. I've held this belief for a long time and have had arguments about it. I'm not sure if I can be any clearer.

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah Anakin sure had it tough, being freed from slavery,

Why didn't they free his mother? They certainly had the resources, they're the ****ing Jedi order. No, he found his mom in concentration camp, watched her die, and went psycho.



No one at his age would have been mature enough for that responsibility.



Pieces of shit who have no free will, and an overcritical master with some dark side in him - if Qui Gon or Yoda had trained him, he would never have fallen to the temptation of lust.

Which Sidious uses to break him in.

Q99
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I would bleed tears in this case.

Let me raise another question for discussion: Is the Force itself a form of fate or deterministic all-pervading power?


Since it can be defied, I'd say it's somewhat a force of fate, but it only guides things that way, it's not purely deterministic.

Stealth Moose
A friend of mine brought up Ben Kenobi's talk to Luke during the remote training session, where he says it both guides one's hand but also obeys ones commands. If this indicative of how the Jedi see the Force, this implies some rather mild guidance on its behalf. My buddy also brought up how inconsistentthe Jedi are in ffollowing its guidance. When Yuon Par says the Force is guiding the Jedi Counselor's training the Council considers it unorthodox but indulges her because of her standing.

Oneness
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A friend of mine brought up Ben Kenobi's talk to Luke during the remote training session, where he says it both guides one's hand but also obeys ones commands. If this indicative of how the Jedi see the Force, this implies some rather mild guidance on its behalf. My buddy also brought up how inconsistentthe Jedi are in ffollowing its guidance. When Yuon Par says the Force is guiding the Jedi Counselor's training the Council considers it unorthodox but indulges her because of her standing.

They're ignorant, they lie to themselves, they hide information from their students.

They are equals to the Sith in their deeds, you can righteously do something that's complete different than torturing an innocent puppy, that has far worse repercussions galaxy-wide; the Jedi did this by stealing Anakin from his mother, yet they always get the moral upper-hand and win...

But as for the Force itself, it is neither good or bad, it guides a being to carry out his or her will successfully. It's basically a way to manipulate reality.

Nephthys
The Jedi didn't steal Anakin, they saved him from slavery. What assholes.

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi didn't steal Anakin, they saved him from slavery. What assholes. With Anakin's racing skills, he probably would have ended up with enough money to free both himself and his mother - so could the Jedi but they had no use for a common slave girl.

Oneness
In fact, Anakin's life story should be precedence of free will>prophecy or "destiny" - in that the prophecy was different from the vision of the Jedi scholar who made it; or the Jedi Masters who read it would have done things differently. Of course there's the question of the completeness of the scholar's vision - in which case I'll refer to Jacen* Solo altering the course of events within the vision he saw - effectively changing the future and unleashing Abeloth the Bringer of Chaos.

It would appear that Force users make their own destinies - being fully surrendered to the Will of the Force, Luke's life events and destiny may as well have been a manifestation of his will influenced by the collected Will of all the life that also influenced the Will the Force.

Stealth Moose
So what did your parents do to you that makes you so strongly identify with Anakin Skywalker?

Oneness
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So what did your parents do to you that makes you so strongly identify with Anakin Skywalker? I'm living with my parents who're helping through college. I don't see any similarity in that regard.

I see mistakes I've made in the past as disappointing to other's expectations of me, that's why I might relate to Anakin Skywalker - but at the same time I believe that it's never too late actualize my potential.

Even Skywalker could find a way to come back - as Jedi ghosts can embody living hosts (Darth Plagueis Novel).

Q99
Originally posted by Oneness
They're ignorant, they lie to themselves, they hide information from their students.

They are equals to the Sith in their deeds, you can righteously do something that's complete different than torturing an innocent puppy, that has far worse repercussions galaxy-wide; the Jedi did this by stealing Anakin from his mother, yet they always get the moral upper-hand and win...

But as for the Force itself, it is neither good or bad, it guides a being to carry out his or her will successfully. It's basically a way to manipulate reality.

Equal to the sith? There's a difference between the occasional thing having unintended consequences due to short-sightedness and overt regular maliciousness. Even the hidebound and somewhat foolish Jedi of the time were a net plus, and at other times the Jedi have been a much bigger plus than them.

Stealth Moose
Q99 has a point. Oneness, you appear to be injecting your own venom into your interpretations of the Jedi's motives and that makes your own POV concerning.

Oneness
Originally posted by Q99
Equal to the sith? There's a difference between the occasional thing having unintended consequences due to short-sightedness and overt regular maliciousness. Even the hidebound and somewhat foolish Jedi of the time were a net plus, and at other times the Jedi have been a much bigger plus than them. Luke and Vader's victory at Endor caused more harm than good.

The Prophets of Rhand said it best when they proclaimed that Palpatine's failure was that, after he succeeded in destroying the Jedi and the Republic, was that he tried to create - potentially his '10,000 year reign' (most likely as a body hopper between Force sensitives) would have seen him ruling over more and more systems - but as a Roman Emperor archetype.

What the success of this violent rebellion and the creation of the New Jedi Order really did, was allow for the Yuuzhan Vong to invade. This invasion resulted in a death toll far more massive than of the Clone Wars that caused far more damage to independent systems than the Jedi's outer rim siege (which was also quite destructive in its own right).

After the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, there were a series of crises included in the events of the Dark Nest trilogy and the FoTJ series - then a 130 year period peace - then another Sith Imperial War far faaaaar worse than anything before it that was resolved the the Galactic Alliance of Independent Systems, which is questionably still less capable of maintaining the level of peace that Sidious' Empire would have in that now the Sith are free to fester in secret like in between the events of the Darth Bane Trilogy and TPM. Now the Sith are in greater number, still hard to discover - and can amass a military force far more easily among this nigh-anarchically galactic community; especially since the galaxy is now more divided than ever!

The Jedi and the Sith allow the destructive wars of Star Wars to perpetuate increasingly. They are both equally responsible for getting in the way of peace and little the normal, non-super beings who can't use the Force to govern themselves.

S_W_LeGenD
The Force strives for balance and possibly peace; this is representative of its will. This balance can be disturbed when Force-users try to bend the Force to their will for their personal gains, resulting in conflicts and violence.

Those who let the Force guide their actions, represent the light side of the Force. These Force-users automatically accept the will of the Force and ensure its balance and resultant peace.

Those who use the Force for personal gains, represent the dark side of the Force. These Force-users have the tendency to reject the will of the Force and disturb its balance due to nature of their actions.

The Force does not prevents its users from using it for their personal gains but it still wants them to follow its will and retaliates by creating circumstances that prevent its misuse.

The entire concept of balance is that Force should not be bend against its will because its misuse will result in elimination of peace and promotion of violence. At-least this is what I have understood.

Most Force-users are born neutral (they are neither light and nor dark at birth). Their can be exceptions though such as Vitiate, he was dark since birth.

Stealth Moose
So the question to ask also might be: does the Force manifest agents just of balance or does it also manifest agents of change? Beings like Vitiate, Sidious, and Bane are Dark Side agents pretty much from birth, while beings like Yoda, Luke and even Obi-Wan seem to be paragons of Light. Might the Force be schitzophrenic, or is it the users that create these anomalies?

Oneness
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Might the Force be schitzophrenic, or is it the users that create these anomalies?

It's the users' collective commands that create the chaos - the Force only obeys commands, and guides their commander in the best way possible to fulfill them.

Like in real life transhumanism and a shared telepathic link, and VR are, theoretically, the only way to go before we can move on; in Star Wars the only way for higher order is to become Celestials, engineering a dimension in order to collectively shape their own - structured - reality.

ares834
I view the Force not as a sentient being like God but more like a force of nature. As such, the "will of the force" isn't actually some God-like being's will but rather nature balancing itself out to an equilibrium. Ultimately then, I don't think the force "manifests" agents of change or balance. They just happen naturally.

As for free-will, I view it in a similar way to psmith. That, while we don't technically have true free-will, we have the illusion of free-will or choice. It's the exact same way I view the real world. While we still get to choose the actions we will take what we choose is entirely based on our genes and past experiences.

Oneness
Originally posted by ares834
what we choose is entirely based on our genes and past experiences. And yet which of our genes get activated and what experiences are acquired throughout the life cycle depend entirely on the environment around us.

The fact is, we can change our environment as well, which in turn changes us. Only difference is, this environment that is nature that is the Force, cannot choose how to restructure us, it just does it. Its a one way process, the thing that thinks is the thing that shapes.

We're the architects, not nature, not the Force - we are nature thinking about itself, we are a way for the Force to think.

ares834
Yes... And? Not sure how that contradicts my view at all.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by ares834
I view the Force not as a sentient being like God but more like a force of nature. As such, the "will of the force" isn't actually some God-like being's will but rather nature balancing itself out to an equilibrium. Ultimately then, I don't think the force "manifests" agents of change or balance. They just happen naturally.

So in this case, Force titans born naturally or seemingly randomly shape their eras rather than the eras necessitating their appearance?

For example, Adas is a bonafide Sith mutant of immense power and vastly different size and shape of his peers and somehow drove off the Infinite Empire to the point where Korriban remained free from their influence. Nihilus formed from the chaos of Malachor V as a wound in the Force, and sought to absorb this energy across the cosmos like some kind of living black hole. The Exile, Meetra, was similar enough in function to be immune and stop him. The Sith Emperor, Vitiate, is likewise a strange-born child of immense Force power who gains status and mastery quickly and begins anew a threat to the Republic rivaling or perhaps exceeding that of the Great Hyperspace War, being behind both the Mandalorian invasions, the Jedi Civil War, and the sacking of Coruscant and the Jedi Temple.

Anakin Skywalker is a being born seemingly of the Force with immense potential and is naturally gifted in the Force, and it is his powers and will that seem to shift the balance of the galaxy from good to bad and then back again. Luke Skywalker comes out of obscurity and aids in this endeavor, going on to become the paragon of his era, striving against incredible adversity and evil to maintain hope and peace.

The thousands of years of Force users has brought us millions of practitioners of varying degrees of power. But only certain individuals rise above the others and make or break history. I think the question stands do these people come about due to naturally occurring laws structuring the SW universe and Force, or are they manifestations of its dual-natured self?

I think it's more likely that they are manifestations, since there is no overall rhyme or reason as to why certain exceptional or exotic individuals appear. Things like Nihilus, Adas, and Vitiate in particular spawn seemingly without a like cause.



This sounds fair. IRL, I'm a hard determinist, because I think that all explanations presuppose cause and effect. Even scientific method does as much. And therefore the formulation of 'knowledge' implies that things are caused and they simply don't exist out of nothing and remain uncaused. That extends to us.

Free-will tells us we can choose, but our choices and who were are were caused in advance. Playing as Commander Shepherd in Mass Effect represents free-will, since you get three choices half of the time and not absolute freedom.

Oneness
Originally posted by ares834
Yes... And? Not sure how that contradicts my view at all. I was reasserting what you said from a different viewpoint:

In this sense, free will is a subjective delusion; an alternate point of view - in reality, objectively, these great dooers of evil and good, had no free will to begin with - their lives were preset, created and manipulating by the Force based on the average desire of the collective, "the Force obeys your command, but it also guides you." As with any system, the average of the collective holds the greatest command over individuality.

Logically, this is the true nature of the real universe: The Balance, The Average. The needs of the many out-way the needs of the few. When things are not balanced, nature must intervene. What do you get? War, destruction, Star Wars; a path our society is headed toward, except it will be a very terrestrial destruction; and, although bacteria will survive and life may continue more balanced than ever, humans will be gone.

In both Star Wars and in reality - everyone must try to strive keep balance for themselves before the precipice, so the Force of Nature doesn't have to bring destruction by removing the creatures who off-balance it - if we are unruly and unbalanced, we're a flawed system.

In America, the 1% has 40% of all the wealth - the to ten percent has 90% of the wealth; this is not a balanced system; on the real though, the American economy is on the brink of destruction because we Americans can't balance it out.

Just the Republic in SW.

Q99
You know, I'm pretty sure 10,000 years under Sith would be a heck of a lot worse than the Vong war ending a bit faster.


There's constant suffering under such a system, and there's large amounts of the galaxy- the unknown region- that would have large numbers of worlds put to the torch under the conquest.


Furthermore, that assumes the rebels didn't success sooner or later anyway. It certainly would've been a longer and bloodier rebellion, but victory was not impossible. What if a ship Palpatine was on was destroyed in 18ABY? Then the fall of the Empire would still happen and there'd be less time to recover from it when the Vong did show up.

Or what if Vader dethroned Palpatine but failed to hold power due to his heavy handed methods? Or if master and apprentice mutual-killed?

The Empire inherently had a lynchpin. It was not designed as a stable system that could handle without it's leader well.



The Jedi only get in the way of 'peace' with it's an oppressive 'peace' that enslaves and kills countless people across the galaxy. I will again note, most of the time since their forming have been long, long periods of peace. Sometimes lasting for ten thousand years, sometimes one thousand, sometimes less, but overall, a good enough track record that I feel confident to say, 'these are not the instigators here.'

The Sith get in the way of peace because that's just what they do.



The Jedi aim for peace. The Sith aim for conflict. When the two are balanced, you don't have peace- view The Old Republic era for that, two governments, one with Sith one with Jedi, and you get destructive struggle.

Nor are lack of Jedi a sign of peace. One of the worst conflicts in galactic history, the Pius Dea Crusades, happened when the Jedi withdrew, unwilling to act, and went on for a thousand years until the Jedi allied with other resistance forces and took them down. No Sith, no force users in the helm. Just billions and billions dying for a millennium.

Furthermore, the Tion conflicts, and the time of Xim the Despot, no force users were behind that. Nor the Hutt wars. The Alsakan Conflicts were seventeen wars driven by political tensions and not force users.

The Jedi help reduce such conflicts.

psmith81992
I created a topic like this 3 or 4 years ago and there was surprisingly little discussion. It was a lot of foreshadowing: was Luke responsible for the destruction of the galaxy? Had he not destroyed the Empire, the Empire would have been well equipped to defeat the Vong and rule the galaxy through military strength. So to answer your question, I'll take 10,000 years under the sith than 3-4 years under the Vong (365 trillion casualties).

Stealth Moose
That many people died? The Sith Empire was ridiculously stable in comparison. Hell, most of them were.

Oneness
The effect that the Empire had on the galaxy wasn't any different from the Republic, except that it unified the systems in a neuse, for a more secure, centralized, militarized and industrialized society.

It was actually better. All that Palpatine wanted was power, his reign wasn't all that "dark". The only reason for the Rebellion was because the systems were bitter about living in a police state, and having to share resources with other communities, they were bitter about a lack of free-market. Of course they're going to be bitter, they're selfish, ambitious, and greedy!

Think of the Galactic Empire as the mid-60's through mid 70's Golden Age of America after we came back from WWII, baby boomers, civil rights for everyone. Unlike the forces of the old and new Republic, Palpatine's military was human-based, human-operated, tight-nit, and just like in the sixties these humans were booming in population among the aliens of the galaxy, thriving because of Palpatine's humanocentric Military - the most powerful military in the mythos - because being one-species-based allowed for a larger and more cohesive, expansive, and factorized Force in that the similar anatomy and what-not allows for like crafts.

So we have autonomy, industry, science, efficiency, and security galaxy-wide.

The Rebellion plunged the galaxy into chaos; Anakin should have merked his evil son when he had the chance.



Vader would have put down that pathetic rebellion by being a genius wartime tactician better than Batman, on top of being 200%+++ of the Emperor in power level as a fully committed Sith.

Vader did not see himself as a wise leader, neither was Sidious, an Emperor was unnecessary, in fact.



This is exactly what happened in RoTJ, and the galaxy was plunged into chaos.



No, it's just there was no time to organize the transition, you get a two decade cluster **** of competing military hierarchies. Vader, as "Emperor" what have allowed technocrats to make the Empire truly organized and unbeatable.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Oneness
It was actually better

No, it wasn't.

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120730222651/aceattorney/images/4/46/Normal_1.gif

One only needs to read "Allegiance" where stormtroopers are rounding up aliens on a planet and massacring them for no reason to understand that the Empire did not make the galaxy a better place.

Oh sure, maybe everything was better off for the majority of citizens, i.e. the humans, just like a lot of Germany benefited under the Nazi's. But that doesn't balance out their crimes.

The Empire legalised slavery. Case closed. erm

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it wasn't.

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120730222651/aceattorney/images/4/46/Normal_1.gif

One only needs to read "Allegiance" where stormtroopers are rounding up aliens on a planet and massacring them for no reason to understand that the Empire did not make the galaxy a better place.

Oh sure, maybe everything was better off for the majority of citizens, i.e. the humans, just like a lot of Germany benefited under the Nazi's. But that doesn't balance out their crimes.

The Empire legalised slavery. Case closed. erm

A lot of the problems with the Empire was the lack of democracy. It was a perfect, centralized technocratic system that would hypothetically do wonders of the Emperor's position was removed, and if the technocrats operated on a morality basis, not an Emperor commands basis.

Vader was potentially powerful enough to gain a reach in the Central Intelligence Underground, long enough to prevent coops that might form fascist secret sects. Vader could have been the center piece of democracy in a system far superior to the Republic.

I digress, the Jedi and Sith have a special position, they are super beings, and are equally responsible for the death, tragedy and destruction throughout Star Wars.

Nephthys
Right, so it isn't perfect since the system orchestrates the rise of cruel tyrants to positions where they have complete power and no ethical restraints. Almost all high ranking Imperials are complete monsters for a reason.

Just like Socialism is perfect until humans get involved.

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, so it isn't perfect since the system orchestrates the rise of cruel tyrants to positions where they have complete power and no ethical restraints. Almost all high ranking Imperials are complete monsters for a reason.

Just like Socialism is perfect until humans get involved. In a technocracy, the greater expert in the issue holds superior power to decide what gets done. In a democratic technocracy, the greater expert in the issue holds superior power to decide what gets done, but must do so while "restrained" by a moral premise, as he is accountable.

In this way, there is an intelligent, centralized system - democracy is more of a an ethics committee - and every action is documented by said ethics committee and technocrats in office are accounted for. Less privacy is good, it becomes more difficult to organize a fascist coop when the whole system is dependent on experts in all fields pooling their expertise.

It's really where the real world would be headed, now I feel it's headed toward global annihilation.

Nephthys
I don't particularly care about your politics, I was responding to your laughable claims that the galaxy was better off under the Empire and that the Rebels were just a bunch of greedy assholes.

I do find your argument that it was so much better under Palpatines sturdy one-species-based system to be compelling though. Provided you weren't a alien of course. Otherwise I guess it would be pretty shit. But I guess who really cares about the rights and welfare of the minority if humans do well, huh?

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't particularly care about your politics, I was responding to your laughable claims that the galaxy was better off under the Empire

In more ways than not. The Republic could not agree on anything, there was no synchronization, there was far less industry and autonomy so the galaxy was falling into economic inequality under Republic, which is why the Separatists were so successful in recruiting so many systems in the out rim to their cause. And what did the Jedi do? They followed the orders of the corrupt senate - run by the wealthy that were causing most of the galactic community to suffer from their inequality creating this conflict in the first place (more so than Palpatine who merely used the conflict to gain power over a system that actually got rid of this inequality of wealth) - like mindless automatons, bringing fire and death to the outer rim.



Do you know what kind of death and destruction they caused when they threw the Empire into a chaotic competition for hierarchy. The Republic forming afterward, sucked because - more than the Old Republic there was a lack of centrality - and fell apart. They literally needed a New Rebellion. The Yuuzhan Vong would not have even invaded if the Empire had still been around.

Yes, the Empire was the lesser of two evils if we're considering overall suffering. I don't recall enslaving or slaughtering aliens exclusively, and the outer rim (aliens and humans included) were a lot better off. There's a reason that beings kept trying to re-install the Empire two and a quarter centuries after its fall (Fell).

Tatooine was one of millions of systems that could get away with slavery in your "golden Republic". smh...&gtwink

Nephthys
Originally posted by Oneness
In more ways than not. The Republic could not agree on anything, there was no synchronization, there was far less industry and autonomy so the galaxy was falling into economic inequality under Republic, which is why the Separatists were so successful in recruiting so many systems in the out rim to their cause. And what did the Jedi do? They followed the orders of the corrupt senate - run by the wealthy that were causing most of the galactic community to suffer from their inequality creating this conflict in the first place (more so than Palpatine who merely used the conflict to gain power over a system that actually got rid of this inequality of wealth) - like mindless automatons, bringing fire and death to the outer rim.

Most of which was because of the machinations of the Sith, not the actual failings of the Republic. And you can't blame the Jedi for any of this because the Jedi are simply a peacekeeping force. They don't have the training or the right to interfere with politics.

Originally posted by Oneness
Do you know what kind of death and destruction they caused when they threw the Empire into a chaotic competition for hierarchy. The Republic forming afterward, sucked because - more than the Old Republic there was a lack of centrality - and fell apart. They literally needed a New Rebellion. The Yuuzhan Vong would not have even invaded if the Empire had still been around.

Yes, the Empire was the lesser of two evils if we're considering overall suffering. I don't recall enslaving or slaughtering aliens exclusively, and the outer rim (aliens and humans included) were a lot better off. There's a reason that beings kept trying to re-install the Empire two and half decades after its fall (Fell).

Tatooine was one of millions of systems that could get away with slavery in your "golden Republic". smh...> )

Which was not the fault of the Rebels, but the fault of the Empire for being such a horrible dictatorship that caused the Rebellion in the first place. The Empire created the conflict through its evil, forcing the people to rise up in rebellion. It wasn't the Rebellion who caused this death and destruction, it was Palpatine and the Sith for corrupting the Republic, manufacturing a massive galactic war, massacring the greatest defense the galaxy had in the Jedi, overthrowing the democratic process and oppressing the galaxies citizens for 2 decades. THAT is what led to the galaxies downfall, not the Rebellion.

And no, I disagree on your estimation of the Vongs chances vs the Empire:

"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done." - Han Solo.

Tatooine wasn't a member of the Republic, it was ruled by the Hutts.

Oneness
You deceptive little bewb,.

Quit repeating yourself.

Nephthys
Only if you quit hitting yourself.

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
Most of which was because of the machinations of the Sith, not the actual failings of the Republic. And you can't blame the Jedi for any of this because the Jedi are simply a peacekeeping force. They don't have the training or the right to interfere with politics.

The Rebels were just like the Jedi, violently acting out on matters beyond their comprehension.



Sidious only provided the Republic with a clone army and had immense control of the Separatists in secret as well - but the >Empire disparity and lack of stability had been there long before Sidious was conceived.



Forcefully liberate is a better word. True, their ethics were questionable - but they did gain a hold over the galaxy, and provided for the outer rim and inner rim fairer equality. Palpatine was past wealth, he had unlimited power, so in a lot of ways he was less evil than the Bureaucrats of the Republic. That's more than the Republic showed capable of doing, Old and New.



Han Solo is not equipped to gauge what the **** the Empire would have done.



The Republic were very poor at bringing stability long before the First Sith Empire, much less Palpatine.

I maintain the fact that the Empire saw more prosperity, technological progress, and higher learning and basically super-education systems, than did the old and new Republic.

Nephthys
I was kinda hoping someone would come in and laugh at you for me, but oh well.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Rebels were just like the Jedi, violently acting out on matters beyond their comprehension.

Except for the fact that the founding members and leaders of the Rebellion were senators and the few people alive who actually knew what was going on with regards to Palpatines takeover and the horror of the Empire:

Bail Organa
Galen Marek
Dodonna
Mon Mothma
Leia
etc

Originally posted by Oneness
Sidious only provided the Republic with a clone army and had immense control of the Separatists in secret as well - but the >Empire disparity and lack of stability had been there long before Sidious was conceived.

As I recall the Sith had been undermining the Republic from within for quite some time. As I said, the Republic was corrupt because the Sith had corrupted it for generations. And Sidious didn't just give the Republic an army, he was behind the creation of the CIS as well.

Also I think you mean 'Republics disparity'. wink

Originally posted by Oneness
Forcefully liberate is a better word.

Laugh my ****ing ass off!

Sure, forcefully liberating the people by taking away all their rights and freedom! That are smatr.

Originally posted by Oneness
True, their ethics were questionable - but they did gain a hold over the galaxy, and provided for the outer rim and inner rim fairer equality.

Imperialism ho!

Originally posted by Oneness
Palpatine was past wealth, he had unlimited power, so in a lot of ways he was less evil than the Bureaucrats of the Republic. That's more than the Republic showed capable of doing, Old and New.

shocklaugh

Sure, and in another way he murdered billions-trillions of people so in no way is he less evil than the 'eeeeevil greedy bureaucrats'.

Originally posted by Oneness
Han Solo is not equipped to gauge what the **** the Empire would have done.

lol

Originally posted by Oneness
The Republic were very poor at bringing stability long before the First Sith Empire, much less Palpatine.

I maintain the fact that the Empire saw more prosperity, technological progress, and higher learning and basically super-education systems, than did the old and new Republic.

No really. I recall the Old Republic being fairly stable before Sadow and his goons ****ed everything up.

Yeah, the Empire was great. If you were human. And a man. And white. Then it was great! It saw more technological progress only in the area of warfare because they were ****ing lunatics unbound from ethics. Of course you're going to make better progress when you're not concerned over the deathtoll.

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
I was kinda hoping someone would come in and laugh at you for me, but oh well.

A lot of people identify with the Empire, because not everyone is a fool who buys into GL's philosophy.



As I said, fools throwing the galaxy into chaos. You associate with them cause Lucas says "sympathize with them", and you subjectively do so. The Rebellion ****ed up the galaxy, therefore, objectively, they're the bad guys.



Along with the entire poverty stricken outer rim.



That was started with Darth Tenebrous and finished with Sidious, and btw Dooku's resources, along with the Separatist leaders and all the broke ass Outer Rim territories made it possible. Now if only Americans could reproduce that feat and get some equality back.



Which was greater than Empire's, yes.



Yes, smart. It's called a police state, they forced the systems to get along through suppressing their ability to secede.




Capitalist ho!



Not the Empire, the Republic's inequality of wealth and the Jedi's blind obedience are responsible for that. The outer rim territories that brought that war suffered more heavily than the snug rich bastards in the core worlds.



As you once said, "that's a good argument".



We're talking about Lucas' story here.



It really was, you have increased productivity, better job market, higher living standards for everyone who didn't join the violent Rebellion against the Empire at the beck and call of fools without a plan to implement a better society.



Why are you bringing ethnicity into this, that has nothing to do with anything. laughing who says the Empire cared about ethnicity? Black people are humans too, so they can be anti-racist and still be humanocentric. Get off the hate, man.

It wasn't just humans that benefited from the Empire though, it was basically everyone unless they were apart of the violent rebellion or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The Imperial military was humanocentric mainly because the technology would be more easily factorized if it were to suit one species' biological needs. In fact, if Thrawn is any indication, most humanoids had a place in the Imperial Military. The military protected billions of alien species, and provided work and security for humanoids and alien engineers alike - pumping the galactic economy that no longer suffered from inequality of wealth and did appeal far more systems than did the Republic.

It was just better.



What "death toll"? laughing, and no, you won't!

The Rebellion couldn't do shit but attack Imperials, most of the systems were anti-Rebellion because they did benefit from the Empire more so than they had with the Republic.

The Clone Wars had a huge death toll yes, but the inequality of wealth was a larger contributor to it than were the Sith, the Sith merely used this flawed system to their advantage - and made a better system.

The Empire fell into descent after Palpatine's death because Palpatine made the Imperial Chain of command untenable without an Emperor - and unable to implement a new Emperor as we've seen. If Vader had survived, Endor II wouldn't have hurt the Empire, and Vader would have tried something new, by not making more Death Stars and actually putting down the Rebellion with wartime based strategies.

If you were really concerned with actual death toll, than the Rebellion and the Republics were obviously the bad guys - the Clone Wars, no cohesion during the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion, etc.

As I said about the Force, it would not need to intervene if the galaxy could balance themselves out. That is what Empire tried to do - it wasn't perfect but it did a better job until the Rebellion took away its ability to function.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Oneness
A lot of people identify with the Empire, because not everyone is a fool who buys into GL's philosophy.

Lmoa. Question:

Do you "identify" with them destroying an entire planet and its inhabitants?

Originally posted by Oneness
As I said, fools throwing the galaxy into chaos. You associate with them cause Lucas says "sympathize with them", and you subjectively do so. The Rebellion ****ed up the galaxy, therefore, objectively, they're the bad guys.

For noble purposes. Some amount of chaos is always expected with Revolution, but that is a necessary evil to get rid of a much greater one. Palpatine and his cronies are the ones who truly are to blame for this chaos. They blew up Alderaan, Sidious mentally enslaved billions on Byss, Kasyyykk was bombed and the Wookiee's were enslaved as were many other sentients throughout Imperial space. They were monsters. Yeah, the Rebels created chaos, for good reasons. As opposed to greedy monsters like Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin throwing the galaxy into chaos purely for their own benefit. And, no I sympathise with them because they are combating a great evil in the form of the Empire and their goals and methods are righteous.

Yes, the galaxy suffered long term, but you only know about that through hindsight. The Rebels had no way of knowing about the Vong. They cannot be blamed for them.

Originally posted by Oneness
Along with the entire poverty stricken outer rim.

ohhhhh nooooooooo not POVERTY! being incompetent is sooooo much worse than being mass-murdering tyrants!

Originally posted by Oneness
That was started with Darth Tenebrous and finished with Sidious, and btw Dooku's resources, along with the Separatist leaders and all the broke ass Outer Rim territories made it possible. Now if only Americans could reproduce that feat and get some equality back.

Are you forgetting that the leaders of the CIS are some of the wealthiest beings in the galaxy? The Trade Federation? Dooku? The Techno Union? The Intergalactic Banking Union? The Commerce Guild? The Corporate Alliance? Noticing a pattern here? >;] The CIS is almost universally portrayed in the Clone Wars material to be made up of nothing more than a bunch of vile, backstabbing opportunists and darkside murderers. They didn't give a shit about the supposed poverty, which I'm sure you're exaggerating, they just wanted more money and power for themselves.

Plus as I recall as early as Darth Bane, the Sith were undermining the Republic.

Originally posted by Oneness
Which was greater than Empire's, yes.

no u ****ed up

Originally posted by Oneness
Yes, smart. It's called a police state, they forced the systems to get along through suppressing their ability to secede.

Cool story bro, everyone knows police states are ****ing kickin' rad and totally not basically awful in every respect. thumb up

Originally posted by Oneness
Capitalist ho!

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/fd/e5/d1/fde5d1e2dab48caf17ba161bd8f4c763.jpg

Originally posted by Oneness
Not the Empire, the Republic's inequality of wealth and the Jedi's blind obedience are responsible for that. The outer rim territories that brought that war suffered more heavily than the snug rich bastards in the core worlds.

I'm honestly confused here. Are you seriously arguing that the Empire decreasing poverty and raising the standards of living makes up for their countless crimes against humanity? Are you saying that they're better than people who blow up planets, enslave entire populaces and are literally cackling madmen?

Originally posted by Oneness
As you once said, "that's a good argument".

Han's quote was a joke. wink

Originally posted by Oneness
We're talking about Lucas' story here.

Nope. You're bringing up things like the Vong, which are outside of Lucas' story. Don't try to pick and choose.

Originally posted by Oneness
It really was, you have increased productivity, better job market, higher living standards for everyone who didn't join the violent Rebellion against the Empire at the beck and call of fools without a plan to implement a better society.

Sure, which is why so many people were cheering after their defeat in RotJ, right? wink

The Empire was awful. It was a horrible, despotic regime that committed countless atrocities. Theres a reason so many people rebelled and it wasn't because they were violent anarchists.

Originally posted by Oneness
Why are you bringing ethnicity into this, that has nothing to do with anything. laughing who says the Empire cared about ethnicity? Black people are humans too, so they can be anti-racist and still be humanocentric. Get off the hate, man.

When was the last time you saw a black Imperial officer?

Originally posted by Oneness
It wasn't just humans that benefited from the Empire though, it was basically everyone unless they were apart of the violent rebellion or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

erm

Except for species like the Wookiees, who they mass-enslaved. You need to do some research:

"However, after the rise of the Empire, slavery was once again given a degree of legitimacy with the issuance of Imperial Decree A-SL-4557.607.232. Non-Humans and Human critics of the New Order alike were rounded up and enslaved en-masse for work on such projects as the Death Star. Agorffi, Wookiees, Yuzzem, and Talz were exploited for their strength while the Mon Calamari and the Givin were used for their famous ship-building skills. Also the Quarren, Chromans, Ugnaughts and Mustafarians were enslaved for their mining skills, the Gamorreans and Gungans were enslaved for military operations and the Kaminoans and Kallidahins for their cloning skills. Meanwhile, the Empire frequently ignored the trade of Twi'lek girls, who were enslaved for their beauty."

Yeah man, the Empire was so awesome. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Oneness
The Imperial military was humanocentric mainly because the technology would be more easily factorized if it were to suit one species' biological needs. In fact, if Thrawn is any indication, most humanoids had a place in the Imperial Military. The military protected billions of alien species, and provided work and security for humanoids and alien engineers alike - pumping the galactic economy that no longer suffered from inequality of wealth and did appeal far more systems than did the Republic.

It was just better.

Nope, it wasn't just the military. And Thrawn was the exception.

Originally posted by Oneness
What "death toll"? laughing, and no, you won't!

Um, the millions who died to create their awesome new tech? See above for just a taste.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Rebellion couldn't do shit but attack Imperials, most of the systems were anti-Rebellion because they did benefit from the Empire more so than they had with the Republic.

Wrong. Most of the systems were pro-Rebellion because Empire was just that ****ing awful. After the destruction of the Death Star the Rebellion hugely gained numbers because so many were horrified over the destruction of Alderaan.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Clone Wars had a huge death toll yes, but the inequality of wealth was a larger contributor to it than were the Sith, the Sith merely used this flawed system to their advantage - and made a better system.

Lmao. No, the Sith were a much more important reason. And as I said, most of the leaders of the Seps were greedy rich people.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Empire fell into descent after Palpatine's death because Palpatine made the Imperial Chain of command untenable without an Emperor - and unable to implement a new Emperor as we've seen. If Vader had survived, Endor II wouldn't have hurt the Empire, and Vader would have tried something new, by not making more Death Stars and actually putting down the Rebellion with wartime based strategies.

If you were really concerned with actual death toll, than the Rebellion and the Republics were obviously the bad guys - the Clone Wars, no cohesion during the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion, etc.

As I said about the Force, it would not need to intervene if the galaxy could balance themselves out. That is what Empire tried to do - it wasn't perfect but it did a better job until the Rebellion took away its ability to function.

Actually, IIRC the construction of both Death Stars tanked the economy. And tons of people would have rebelled after two such defeats, as they did, with or without Vader's death. Vader lacked the authority and will to be Palpatines successor anyway.

How the hell are the Rebellion to blame for the Clone Wars? Thats almost entirely the fault of the Sith, the greedy CIS leaders and partially the Republic. What, is Bail Organa to blame for any of that? Mon Mothma? This is ridiculous.

Lolwut. You really are nuts. The Force intervened because of the Sith, not the imbalance in freaking social disparity. Wtf are you smoking? Also the idea of balance in a system of rampant inequality is lulzy.

Oneness
Why were the people cheering?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Oneness

Nephthys
Originally posted by Oneness
Why were the people cheering?

That doesn't make sense to me.

They were cheering because they were happy that the Empire had been defeated.


Originally posted by Oneness
Let’s start from the beginning: what is the relationship between the Empire and the Ewoks before the movie begins? I submit that the internal evidence of the film makes it clear that they were peacefully coexisting. Several elements contribute to this conclusion, which is admittedly based on limited data, but which seems entirely uncontradicted by any available evidence:

1. When the rebels encounter the Imperial scouts on their speeders, the Imperials appear to be conducting routine patrols in the territory around their base. The guys on the ground seem to be about to eat lunch, while another group sits casually on their speeder bikes some distance away. This is not how soldiers on patrol in a combat area act; obviously they don’t expect any trouble from the locals.

2. The effectiveness of the Ewoks in battle against the Imperial troops, despite their inferior technology, clearly indicates that the Imperials have not battled Ewoks before. If they had, they would have developed tactics and doctrines suited to warfare against the indigenes. (I suggest orbital bombardment.) Instead, their deployments and approaches are clearly oriented around repelling a high-tech assault from orbit, rather than dealing with a native insurgency against their occupation.

3. The Ewoks, a hunter-gatherer society, appear to have no dislocations in their lifestyle. Their town, although only a short distance from a major Imperial facility, is apparently permanent, well-settled, and prosperous – numerous healthy young are in the community and Ewoks of all ages appear to be well-fed and happy. There is no sign of malnutrition or indications that the Ewoks have been displaced by the Imperial presence.

4. The Ewoks are unsurprised, and do not become hostile, when they encounter humans and a Wookie. Their reaction to other hominids is entirely contextual. When Leia is found helpless by one of the Ewoks, he pities her plight and gives her aid; he does take her “prisoner” but it is clear that she is well treated. When Luke etc. are caught in an Ewok trap, they are treated as food. This clearly indicates that the Ewoks are judging each visitor to their territory on their own merits and on the basis of the immediate context, and not assuming a hostile status with “those evil humans”. Otherwise they would have killed Leia immediately, having seen that she was connected with the speeder-riding Imperials. All of this leads to the conclusion that the Ewoks have met and dealt with Imperial humans before, and don’t bear them any particular malice or friendship.

So, it is clear that the Empire decided to use this moon for its strategic location, and took no hostile action against the native population of the world. They aren’t hunting Ewoks for food, they aren’t enslaving them for labor. I assume that the Empire took some Ewok land to build their base, but it doesn’t seem to have negatively impacted them. (Perhaps they paid the Ewoks a fair price for the land.) The Empire didn’t start colonizing the obviously lush and productive world or stripping it of its resources. They just built their base and proceeded with their legitimate military business. They defended their base against Rebel attack, but did little or nothing to forestall military activity by the natives, indicating that they did not expect such activity.

What happens when the Rebels enter this picture of interspecies cooperation and harmony?

The first encounter is when Leia meets an Ewok hunter and is taken back to their home. Her actions appear friendly – although her attitude is somewhat contemptuous of the natives’ intelligence – but we don’t really know her intentions. Perhaps she didn’t mean to be an infiltrator and a spy on the native people. We just don’t know.

The next thing that happens is that Luke, Han, Chewie and the droids are captured by an Ewok hunting party when they stumble into a trap. The Ewoks believe that C3P0 is some kind of divine being to be honored (though not particularly to be obeyed or feared), and decide to turn the bounty of their hunt into a feast for their god.

When C3P0 and Leia’s remonstrations are ineffective, Luke uses his Jedi power to trick the Ewoks into believing that C3P0 really is a god and really does have divine powers. The immediate motivation for this action – avoiding becoming lunch – is morally acceptable. However, the party does not stop with saving their own lives and proceeding with their own mission. Instead, they use C3P0′s divine status to turn the Ewoks into their own private army. They demand food and equipment, guides, and the return of their own equipment, legitimately seized by the Ewoks when the Rebels trespassed on their territory.

What’s worse, they enlist the Ewoks into their own futile rebellion against the legitimate authority. They take a largely helpless indigenous people who, by virtue of the humanity and decency of the local Imperial power, enjoy peaceful relations with the legitimate government, and turn them into doomed rebels. They convince them to mount a surprise attack against an overwhelmingly superior force, and the resulting battle results in the deaths of dozens of Ewok warriors – in exchange for a marginal shift in the tactical situation for the rebels.

In my world, there is a word for people who use trickery and deception to convince simple primitives of their own divinity, and then use that divine status to turn peaceful hunters into jihadists against a vastly superior foreign power that has never harmed them.

That word is “evil”.

Other authors, David Brin foremost among them, have written pieces speculating about the odd moral universe that Mr. Lucas has created. I find myself in agreement with Brin’s conclusions, if not with his excessively egalitarian reasons for preferring the Imperial cause.

The actions of the Rebel characters in Episodes IV through VI, and the actions of the Jedi and/or Republican loyalists in Episodes I through III, add, rather than subtracting, to the weight of this conclusion. There are a number of extremely troubling actions or scenarios that buttress the belief that, while the Empire certainly has its flaws and demons, the Rebels are significantly worse.

The major question that Lucas always seems to avoid: “and then what happens?”

Again, the Ewoks are illustrative. OK, the Rebels win (at great cost to the Ewoks, and little cost to themslves) and the Empire is defeated, for the moment. Then what happens? Are the Rebels going to leave C3P0 with his new followers? Certainly not – he’s still useful. The Ewoks will just have to find a new god. Sorry about wiping out half of your warriors and leaving you vulnerable to the next hostile bit of megafauna wandering around the forests of Endor – oh, and sorry about destroying your culture’s beliefs about the Deity as part of the plan to cynically exploit, use, and then discard your people – bye, now. We’re off to the big victory party on Coruscant.

Rebellion? What rebellion?

There does not appear to be any popular support for the Rebellion.

This seems a rather bald-faced assertion to make, but my review of the films seems to lend considerable support to the idea. There are a handful of rebels in Episode IV – from the visual evidence of the triumphal scene, a couple of thousand at most. They have built a base from which their ancient and decrepit starfighters apparently raid legitimate commerce to support themselves. A few thousand rebels and a handful of ships, out of a Republic of thousands upon thousands of worlds?

Despite their major victory over the Empire, there does not seem to be any particularly large flocking to the rebel banner in Episode V. Again, we have a handful of rebels building a base in an out-of-the-way place, hoping to avoid detection by law enforcement. The behavior is much more typical of a criminal syndicate than that of a rebel movement that allegedly represents the true feelings of the populace of the Galaxy. With FTL communication and hyperdrive, why have a central base? Why not hide individual ships among the bulk of the citizens on all of these thousands of worlds – swimming in the human and alien sea of bodies? Clearly, because there aren’t any reliably Rebel population pools to hide within. The isolated frontier is the only place where the Rebels are safe from the people who will turn them in to the lawful authority.

I'm sorry, what?

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
They were cheering because they were happy that the Empire had been defeated.




I'm sorry, what? Read my argument for the Empire ya scarcity-promoting, masochistic capitalist.

That last argument was pertaining to the fact that the Rebellion didn't have a lot of supporters, and that the Rebels will literally let half of a culture be whiped out by Imperial Forces to win a victory. They are nothing but Jihad Rebels, crazy extremists.

I mean, on screen, we've seen the Empire wipe out the Jedi, destroy entire worlds, enslave peaceful peoples, and declare that their ultimate aim is perpetual rule through fear of force alone. Indeed, the Empire is so evil that it actively rewards cruelty: Grand Moff Tarkin — the commanding officer of the first Death Star — was awarded his title after slaughtering hundreds of anti-Imperial protesters in cold blood.

All of that said, I’m not so certain that the operating philosophy behind the Galactic Empire — that despotism is necessary to maintaining the peaceful cohesion of a galaxy-spanning empire –is entirely wrong.

Especially since we have enough examples of republican forms of galactic government to know that the alternative isn't that much better. The previous galaxy-spanning political unit – the Galactic Republic — collapsed largely because it was too large to be effective.

The Republic didn't even possess the strength or legitimacy to handle a trade dispute on a minor core world, much less an existential threat like the Clone Wars. On the other end of the timeline is the successor regime to the Rebel Alliance, the New Republic.

The New Republic was, like its namesake, a loose confederation of worlds united by common economic ties and a representative body. It maintained a large military, for the purpose of defense and peacekeeping, and was firmly committed to respecting the rights of sentient beings. It was also a complete failure.

For the full 23 years of its existence, the New Republic was beset by division and problems of legitimacy. Consensus was habitually hard to come by, even in times — like the Thrawn crisis — when it was absolutely necessary. Indeed, the New Republic fell precisely because it couldn't muster the cohesion or will to defend itself against the extra-galactic Yuuzhan Vong, despite possessing the combined resources of an entire galaxy.

Now, to me at least, this suggests that a single galactic, representative governing body — no matter how well intentioned — is simply incapable of dealing with such an overwhelming diversity of cultures, viewpoints and agendas (remember, we’re talking about trillions of people and tens of thousands of different lifeforms).

If you’re committed to something vaguely democratic, the only real option is a galactic confederation — not dissimilar to the Federation in the Star Trek continuity — where each member planet or sector has extremely limited ties to a central “governing” body of limited authority. Of course, there are real threats from within and outside the galaxy, and there is a real need for a centralized authority, if only for collective defense.

In which case, it seems that the only way you could have effective collective defense is by forcing each member planet to provide for a common army and navy, which requires enough force for coercion, which in this context can only be successful if the regime has little respect for rights: i.e. the Empire.

Palpatine was incredibly brutal and evil, but he also understood — correctly — that successful galactic dominion requires the kind of cruelty and brute force that we see on display in the movies. Otherwise the whole thing will collapse into petty-infighting and jealousy.

Sure, the Empire are the bad guys. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Oneness

Oneness
Yet they made up a small portion of the greedy rich people of the core worlds.



You don't recall correctly.



Where was this stated?



The first Republic was to blame for the Clone Wars. The Rebellion and the New Republic was to blame for how many the Vong were able to kill when they invaded. The most powerful Military in the Mythos (Galactic Empire) would have trashed them in weeks.



Who were sheltered and successful because the Republic literally caused the lack of cohesion and secession of systems that the Rebellion couldn't even compete with when the Empire reigned.



Like Obi-wan said, the Force also obeys the commands. The entire galaxy had a symbiotic relationship with the Force, midi-chlorians were in all life forms. The collective suffering would call into action the Force. Which was why the Jedi were losing their ability to use the Force, why Palpatine was born evil, why the Sith prevailed.



That's why the Force was out of balance.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Oneness
Read my argument for the Empire ya scarcity-promoting, masochistic capitalist.

Honestly I'm not really that interested in politics. The peak of my investment in that area would be NCR vs Legion, lol.

Originally posted by Oneness
That last argument was pertaining to the fact that the Rebellion didn't have a lot of supporters, and that the Rebels will literally let half of a culture be whiped out by Imperial Forces to win a victory. They are nothing but Jihad Rebels, crazy extremists.

A) The Rebels had thousands of systems join them after ANH. They had enough forces to defeat the Empire and take over as the New Republic. The fact that we see people even on Coruscant celebrating their victory should tell you how wide-spread support for them was.

B) You're blowing the Ewok thing up way overboard, lol. Considering the stakes on the Battle of Yavin (as well as the fact that the Ewoks nearly ate them), Luke and co were well justified in tricking them. And that thing about C3P0 was retarded. Theres no evidence they 'destroyed their culture' or whatever the ****.

Originally posted by Oneness
I mean, on screen, we've seen the Empire wipe out the Jedi, destroy entire worlds, enslave peaceful peoples, and declare that their ultimate aim is perpetual rule through fear of force alone. Indeed, the Empire is so evil that it actively rewards cruelty: Grand Moff Tarkin — the commanding officer of the first Death Star — was awarded his title after slaughtering hundreds of anti-Imperial protesters in cold blood.

I don't see why this post needed to go beyond this.

Originally posted by Oneness
All of that said, I’m not so certain that the operating philosophy behind the Galactic Empire — that despotism is necessary to maintaining the peaceful cohesion of a galaxy-spanning empire –is entirely wrong.

I'll take an inefficient democracy over an efficient dictatorship that blows up ****ing planets any day, personally. erm

Also, you're wrong about that being needed.

Originally posted by Oneness
The New Republic was, like its namesake, a loose confederation of worlds united by common economic ties and a representative body. It maintained a large military, for the purpose of defense and peacekeeping, and was firmly committed to respecting the rights of sentient beings. It was also a complete failure.

For the full 23 years of its existence, the New Republic was beset by division and problems of legitimacy. Consensus was habitually hard to come by, even in times — like the Thrawn crisis — when it was absolutely necessary. Indeed, the New Republic fell precisely because it couldn't muster the cohesion or will to defend itself against the extra-galactic Yuuzhan Vong, despite possessing the combined resources of an entire galaxy.

Um, you're aware that the Republic and Jedi beat the Vong, right?

Originally posted by Oneness
Now, to me at least, this suggests that a single galactic, representative governing body — no matter how well intentioned — is simply incapable of dealing with such an overwhelming diversity of cultures, viewpoints and agendas (remember, we’re talking about trillions of people and tens of thousands of different lifeforms).

If you’re committed to something vaguely democratic, the only real option is a galactic confederation — not dissimilar to the Federation in the Star Trek continuity — where each member planet or sector has extremely limited ties to a central “governing” body of limited authority. Of course, there are real threats from within and outside the galaxy, and there is a real need for a centralized authority, if only for collective defense.

In which case, it seems that the only way you could have effective collective defense is by forcing each member planet to provide for a common army and navy, which requires enough force for coercion, which in this context can only be successful if the regime has little respect for rights: i.e. the Empire.

Palpatine was incredibly brutal and evil, but he also understood — correctly — that successful galactic dominion requires the kind of cruelty and brute force that we see on display in the movies. Otherwise the whole thing will collapse into petty-infighting and jealousy.

Um.... you mean other than the 25,000 years the Republic successfully held firm, right?

Originally posted by Oneness
Sure, the Empire are the bad guys. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yes, they are. They really, really are.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Oneness
YES, and right now you suck at arguing against that plight.

Wow.

/end discussion

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
Honestly I'm not really that interested in politics. The peak of my investment in that area would be NCR vs Legion, lol.

Politics. Let me tell something, I don't really have any interest in politics either. I have interest in trasnhumanism because I'm one of...probably the only person who understands that humans have the resources to rise above the current scarcity-based system, but biologically can't.





Then why couldn't they hide behind in systems? Why did they have to go to uncharted systems, why did they only have central base.

The Separatists during the Clone Wars didn't have a central base, and had plenty of systems sheltering them.



That doesn't mean they had as much support as the Empire, it means they managed to cut off the head and remove the Empire's military coercion.



Not really, we don't know how many were not celebrating, or if the people celebrating understood the full implications of the Rebel Victory.



Removing the necessary destitution to keep the galaxy safe and economically thriving? Mhm.



Only to get back their resources and get out, not to exploit their resources or use them for war - or tell stories about the "Evil" Empire being religiously offensive to their impersonated "God".



You mean causing mass death and destruction upon there people is completely justifiable?



So you'd take over 100 trillion deaths over a few million? K.



Then why did the Clone Wars succeed in destroying trillions of sentient lives?



Only after hundreds of trillions of lives were lost, actually far more than the clone wars.



Seeing a cascade of conflicts that were all of them worse than the reign of the Galactic Empire, yes.



The Empire isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than the Republic.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.