OT Palpatine Vs DE Palpatine

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Oneness
I actually considered this a few years back, but never wanted to get flamed for it. Now I'm in more of a position to be flamed but **** it:

While Krayt states that death and rebirth makes a Sith considerably stronger, and Tyranus demonstrates on Vjun that being on a dark side nexus makes a dark sider stronger; Plagueis stated something along the line to Force alignment (to either the dark or light side) literally provides a Force user with a larger power level...and the Sorcerers of Rhand (read wookieepedia) confirmed that the dark has a will of its own and makes its practitioners more powerful for succeeding in increasing its presence throughout the galaxy; than no single Sith corrupted the galaxy as much as Sidious, the guy literally plunged the galaxy into the Dark Times after the PT. Sidious' death literally reset the balance of dark and light throughout the galaxy.

Is it possible that Emperor Palpatine lost his influence over the dark when he died? Of course it's suggested that his Force storms were granted him by the dark, he also said that he'd discovered the ability long before his death in Book of Sith, this indicates that it was in fact a result of his Force corruption, as was his scarring. In RoTS he claims he wishes for his empire to stand 10,000 years, but even body hopping between clones would not give him total immortality because each new clone is less Force sensitive than the original (DE handbook) - so is it possible the dark was also increasing his longevity before his death, and that it betrayed him because he was trying to create rather than destroy, as the Sorcerors of Rhand claimed?

Could OT Palpatine really have been more powerful than DE Palpatine? He could have already been feeding off of the collective life essences of his subjects on Coruscant along with its inhabitants, he had 24 years to do so...

Nephthys
I think they were likely similar if not OT Sidious being superior. As you say Palpatines clonebodies were inferior to the original in force sensitivity and were corrupted by the guy who created them as I recall. On the other hand Sidious' mastery of the Force had increased iirc and the bodies were younger, so maybe it all balances out.

Oneness
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think they were likely similar if not OT Sidious being superior. As you say Palpatines clonebodies were inferior to the original in force sensitivity and were corrupted by the guy who created them as I recall. On the other hand Sidious' mastery of the Force had increased iirc and the bodies were younger,

No, there was no genetic manipulation (other than making them younger or trying to make them more like the original template) with any of the clones at all, what so ever. A few traitors began chopping up a lot of his clones and he had to get into one that wasn't as good.

Obviously not when he faced Luke.

But then again he'd transferred his essence from his "truest" clone - losing whatever he'd gained from Force drain.

oaa
I doubt Palpatine gained many additional powers in DE and I think it's debatable how much more powerful he became. His younger body may have allowed him to use the Force more effectively and it certainly helped his saber use though. Can't wait for Episode VII to, hopefully, rid the Star Wars universe of reborn Palpatine.

Zett
I bet that after 2015 DE won't be a canon source anymore.

Oneness
Originally posted by Zett
I bet that after 2015 DE won't be a canon source anymore. Hope so, hope none all of it is debunked save Courtship of Princess Leia.

Jedi don't love! #Marajade

The whole point of Jedi not procreating is that it's dangerous, now you have a Skywalker family line.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Zett
I bet that after 2015 DE won't be a canon source anymore.

Overriding canon isn't good for sales though. I suspect that the new SW saga will take place much later.

Also, a lot of this speculation is implicit on behalf of OT Sidious, who has only demonstrated Battle Meditation and rather mundane lightning. I have to agree with Neph that even if natural inclination was decreased with clone hopping, it was counterbalanced by increased mastery or at least demonstration of mastery and had a very small effect. DE Sidious is usually shown as being the strongest incarnation of the character, with the most high-level, cosmic feats to his name. If he is weaker than OT Sidious by implication of DE sourcebook material, this would be unfortunate given the utter lack of comparable feats.

No one would consider Naga Sadow or Nyriss to be stronger than say Vader or Dooku because of implicit strength not shown on-screen, so advocating the same for OT Sidious is inconsistent.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, a lot of this speculation is implicit on behalf of OT Sidious, who has only demonstrated Battle Meditation and rather mundane lightning.

Only if we confine 'OT Sidious' to his appearances in the films. As far as OT-era EU, the Emperor has a veritable wealth of impressive feats and accolades to his name.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
DE Sidious is usually shown as being the strongest incarnation of the character, with the most high-level, cosmic feats to his name.

The only real feat the Emperor has to his name as of Dark Empire that his original incarnation doesn't is his ability to trigger Force storms. And even that is suspect, in light of implications from Star Wars Gamer and Book of Sith that Palpatine had made use of the ability prior to his death at Endor.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No one would consider Naga Sadow or Nyriss to be stronger than say Vader or Dooku because of implicit strength not shown on-screen, so advocating the same for OT Sidious is inconsistent.

Actually, that's been a prevailing argument for years concerning lesser known characters like Ragnos. Implicit strength shouldn't be outright disregarded and, in an inconsistent mythology like this one, feat wars shouldn't always be decisive.

DARTH POWER
I've always found feat wars to be unrealistic. Because clearly the characters with more exposure will have more feats to show for it.

Petrus
They shouldn't always be decisive, but definitely having a good feat to a character's name does change the general way in which that character is viewed.
Although realistically, if we ever saw the main characters from the PT and OT in games such as TOR or KOTOR, I can guarantee they'd aquire a good load of great feats to their name; like say, Sidious flying with Force lightning or toying six Jedi at once or destroying difficult-to-destroy shit with his lightning. That's why imo you have to consider a healthy combination of both feats and accolades to even attempt to judge the character's powers.

I think implicit strength in certain characters should be considered.

Intrepid37
Power scaling is more retarded than Kurupt Thanosis' brain on a bad day.

S_W_LeGenD
Sidious became more powerful after his return. However, it took him several years to become stronger then ever before.

Sidious was able to unleash powers such as Force Storm Wormhole after his return because he was siphoning energies from billions of individuals (populace of Byss). Midichlorian count no longer mattered to him.

This is why I believe that no mortal could be as strong as Sidious at the height of his power.

Regardless:

Sidious, during his reign as Galactic Emperor, was already a master of the dark side. He had already acquired know-how of immortality and further honed his grasp of Force Storms (thanks to tutorship of Darth Malgus in this respect).

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if we confine 'OT Sidious' to his appearances in the films. As far as OT-era EU, the Emperor has a veritable wealth of impressive feats and accolades to his name.

Can you refresh my mind on some?



Draining Byss, body hopping, and Force wormholes qualify.



Alright, so if we use implicit judgments within reason, OT Sidious is probably implicitly better than his DE counterpart, even if only marginally. This might have more weight of comparable EU feats for OT Sidious are shown. OT Sidious also, IIRC, hasn't dueled in like 30 years so whether or not his saber skills atrophied or remained constant or progressed begs for proof.

In the case of Ragnos, it's entirely implicit because he is never shown in canon alive, while Nyriss and Sadow and Sidious have, so his case was always the caveat of "based on his dominance of badasses and the power of his walking stick, it seems likely that he's a beast". Additional gems of his undefeated terrentatak tomb-pet (which killed intruding Sith for over a thousand years) and his SWTOR codex entry seem to reaffirm this.

The reality is, that EU could come around and show Ragnos as being decisively weaker than Vitiate or Nihilus (which I find plausible even now) or he could come out being some kind of cracked out titan who chokes Sith Lords across the galaxy to maintain his dominance while battling the ones foolish enough to spill wine on his throne. We just don't know, so the cases aren't quite comparable.

S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate is canonically more powerful then Ragnos, Tulak and even Nihilus.

Stealth Moose
I'm not sure how you concluded that absolutely. Not that I disagree he could be such, but when you add "canonically" it implies some higher up made a decision, and that's not what I've seen so far.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm not sure how you concluded that absolutely. Not that I disagree he could be such, but when you add "canonically" it implies some higher up made a decision, and that's not what I've seen so far.
Here:

"Lord Vitiate sacrificed millions, stealing their life force to make himself immortal. Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born." (Darth Nyriss)





TOR represents entire ancient history ranging from Rakatan era to Great Galactic War event. Possibly even earlier times.

Stealth Moose
And we confirmed that the Encyclopedia does not have an in-universe POV like some other reference books we've seen?

S_W_LeGenD
Much of the star wars content represents "in-universe perspective" of things in the mythos.

The latest "real-world perspective" based sourcebook that I have access to is Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion. Characters have not been power-scaled in this source.

However, if multiple accounts/sources are implying that Vitiate is stronger then his predecessors, we are likely to take this seriously.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia covers entire ancient history since Rakatan era (Marka Ragnos included).

Stealth Moose
I agree that the comment has merit, but whether or not it is absolute depends on if the book is written from the perspective of an omniscient third party narrator or if it's "attributed to Sudo Blaas, Imperial Scholar 2,500 BBY".

Nephthys
It isn't written from anyones perspective and from reading it its obviously NOT written from a singular perspective or scholar. But the blurb at the front says its an in-universe source. So its in the air imo.

S_W_LeGenD
Well, I am not sure whose perspective Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia represents because it doesn't seems to be written from the perspective of a historian or historians. 6 authors have co-written this sourcebook, which is worth noting.

If you check sourcebooks such as Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, The Jedi Path: A Manual for students of the Force and The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural, you will notice that these sourcebooks represent POV of various characters and historians. These sourcebooks are a good representation of what "in-universe" perspective is as per my understanding.

Now the sourcebook in question (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia) gives "real-world" impression of the content featured in it, it have been written in such a manner. I regard it as an analysis which have consensus on its side, be it from authors or historians or whatever.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Can you refresh my mind on some?

Cosmically, a list would include Palpatine's telepathic manipulation of Coruscant, his psychic subjugation of Byss and corruption of the planet, his rituals during the Clone Wars that aggravated Jedi anxiety and deepened the shroud of the dark side, and his ritual alongside Plagueis that disrupted the balance of the Force.

In terms of combat feats, he's disintegrated Sith wyrms and dark side adepts with Force lightning, defeated Starkiller, stalemated Yoda, massacred three of the Jedi order's premiere swordsmen, blitzed Maul and Opress, demonstrated superhuman strength and speed in excess of most Force users, etc.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Draining Byss, body hopping, and Force wormholes qualify.

Byss was corrupted and subjugated prior to Dark Empire; Palpatine demonstrates the essence transfer technique as early as immediately post-Yavin, where he executes and resurrects Bevel Lemelisk; and the Force wormholes/Force storms have already been addressed.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Alright, so if we use implicit judgments within reason, OT Sidious is probably implicitly better than his DE counterpart, even if only marginally. This might have more weight of comparable EU feats for OT Sidious are shown. OT Sidious also, IIRC, hasn't dueled in like 30 years so whether or not his saber skills atrophied or remained constant or progressed begs for proof.

In the case of Ragnos, it's entirely implicit because he is never shown in canon alive, while Nyriss and Sadow and Sidious have, so his case was always the caveat of "based on his dominance of badasses and the power of his walking stick, it seems likely that he's a beast". Additional gems of his undefeated terrentatak tomb-pet (which killed intruding Sith for over a thousand years) and his SWTOR codex entry seem to reaffirm this.

The reality is, that EU could come around and show Ragnos as being decisively weaker than Vitiate or Nihilus (which I find plausible even now) or he could come out being some kind of cracked out titan who chokes Sith Lords across the galaxy to maintain his dominance while battling the ones foolish enough to spill wine on his throne. We just don't know, so the cases aren't quite comparable.

I'm not saying OT!Sidious is necessarily stronger than DE!Sidious (it is confirmed his Force mastery improved after his death), but only that we can't assume a character is frail or otherwise unimpressive when both earlier and subsequent depictions of the same character is portrayed mightily.

But I think we're on the same page anyway, so that's cool.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cosmically, a list would include Palpatine's telepathic manipulation of Coruscant, his psychic subjugation of Byss and corruption of the planet, his rituals during the Clone Wars that aggravated Jedi anxiety and deepened the shroud of the dark side, and his ritual alongside Plagueis that disrupted the balance of the Force.

In terms of combat feats, he's disintegrated Sith wyrms and dark side adepts with Force lightning, defeated Starkiller, stalemated Yoda, massacred three of the Jedi order's premiere swordsmen, blitzed Maul and Opress, demonstrated superhuman strength and speed in excess of most Force users, etc.

LOL at the massacre of those premier swordsmen, one of which is conclusively just above AotC Obi-Wan. But anyways, I asked specifically for OT feats.



More or less. I'm not claiming OT Sidious is utterly weakened, but how much has he fought in the last 30 years? In comparison, PT and DE Sidious had some battles to examine.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, I am not sure whose perspective Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia represents because it doesn't seems to be written from the perspective of a historian or historians. 6 authors have co-written this sourcebook, which is worth noting.

If you check sourcebooks such as Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, The Jedi Path: A Manual for students of the Force and The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural, you will notice that these sourcebooks represent POV of various characters and historians. These sourcebooks are a good representation of what "in-universe" perspective is as per my understanding.

Now the sourcebook in question (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia) gives "real-world" impression of the content featured in it, it have been written in such a manner. I regard it as an analysis which have consensus on its side, be it from authors or historians or whatever.

If this is the case, then SWTOR Encyclopedia may have some weight. Baffled as to why they choice to avoid the in-universe POV this one time, but whatever. Vitiate being more powerful than Ragnos seems very likely anyways, this just reaffirms it.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Thanks.

As for (OT) Sidious's combat prowess; he subdued Master Kota and handled Starkiller.

Starkiller is canonically stated to be no match for Sidious irrespective of how the events unfolded between the two in a confrontation. Keep in mind that Starkiller ended his own life in an attempt to save his allies during this confrontation, so it is unclear how much longer he would have lasted. Though, their is an alternative ending in the game in which Sidious throws a starship over Starkiller to seriously injure him but this is not canon event.

If the author of a sourcebook (featuring Sidious) is Daniel Wallace, expect some major wanking for Sidious from him (Mr. Wallance is the greatest fanboy of Sidious among the authors). It is in a sourcebook from this author that Starkiller is stated to be no match for Sidious. Very telling.

Stealth Moose
I love how LFL just floods the market with movie character wanking and blows the consistency right out of the window. One guy has like some average TK and lightning to his name, next thing you know he's building Death Stars with his mind while figuring out Chinese finger traps. It makes me utterly hate this mythos sometimes.

Oneness
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
LOL at the massacre of those premier swordsmen, one of which is conclusively just above AotC Obi-Wan. But anyways, I asked specifically for OT feats.



More or less. I'm not claiming OT Sidious is utterly weakened, but how much has he fought in the last 30 years? In comparison, PT and DE Sidious had some battles to examine. All throughout in between ROTS and ANH, Sidious has had battles with traitorous assassins and surviving Jedi, and in the OT as well, Rebellion series, Empire Series - throughout the OT Sidious is the untouchable God in combat more so than in the PT (Arrest scene, battle with Yoda) - consistently, Post-ROTS Sidious is just...you can't touch him. Then there's Empire At War: Forces of Corruption.

Then in ROTJ, the Force betrays him, bringing balance - then, in DE| even after the Sith Spirits guide his spirit and in Empire's End request that he join them in Vader's spot, as the Ultimate Sith of antiquity| Sidious has run his course, yet fights it off, lingering on with his pitiful machinations, losing to Luke, being afraid to face him, trying desperately to get into Leia's womb for an unrealistic upbringing by equally ambitions Sith Acolytes...

His desperation alone should tell you that he's not what he once was. He was born to become the most powerful (both as total Emperor of the galaxy and as sole inheritor of the total dark side at its greatest, than any Sith before him).

His powers alone may have been keeping him from death until ROTJ - or else he would have body hopped into a clone of Anakin immediately after becoming Emperor, as he still had a living breathing Vader that he could take blood sample from and regrow the original with all his Force sensitivity. He certainly had plenty of time to learn Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation technique, but he didn't even feel the need. Obviously the dark powers were sufficient enough to match Rell's, a human who lived 300 years merely because she was strong in the Force.

Oneness
As for TFU novel, the mere explosion of Sidious' lightning is what kills Starkiller. Starkiller never faces him, he straight drops to his knees and asks Starkiller to kill him, obviously he was trying to convert Starkiller, if he'd succeeding in goading the latter, Sidious must have been confident that he could subdue his attacker with the Force alone. Then the novel says that Starkiller is no match for the Emperor.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Nephthys
As you say Palpatines clonebodies were inferior to the original in force sensitivity and were corrupted by the guy who created them as I recall.

Palpatine in the OT is also hosting a clone body.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
LOL at the massacre of those premier swordsmen, one of which is conclusively just above AotC Obi-Wan.

Regardless, that station is conferred upon them by numerous canon sources.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But anyways, I asked specifically for OT feats.

Some of those are from the OT-era: his defeat of Starkiller, his disintegration of dark side prophets, etc. But the real question is: why should we assume that an older, more advanced, more powerful Sidious would be unable to replicate prior feats?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
More or less. I'm not claiming OT Sidious is utterly weakened, but how much has he fought in the last 30 years? In comparison, PT and DE Sidious had some battles to examine.

Once he becomes Emperor, Palpatine obviously enters the fray far less often than he did before. But he's also dedicating himself to an unprecedented study of the Force and Starkiller, with all his stupendous feats, is "ultimately no match" for the Emperor. Whatever he may have lost in combat skill he undoubtedly makes up for in ever-increasing power.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I love how LFL just floods the market with movie character wanking and blows the consistency right out of the window. One guy has like some average TK and lightning to his name, next thing you know he's building Death Stars with his mind while figuring out Chinese finger traps. It makes me utterly hate this mythos sometimes.

This stance has always baffled me. Why is character wanking acceptable when it pertains to the EU and not the movies?

pencilcrayon
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Palpatine in the OT is also hosting a clone body. Didn't Leland Chee say that he was lying to Luke about that?

Petrus
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If this is the case, then SWTOR Encyclopedia may have some weight. Baffled as to why they choice to avoid the in-universe POV this one time, but whatever. Vitiate being more powerful than Ragnos seems very likely anyways, this just reaffirms it.

If several in-universe sources confirm it, we should take it practically as fact. If in-universe sources contradict each other and we see ambiguous comments and statements regarding one or more characters' power, then we shouldn't take it very seriously. But I think in this case, when more than one source is implicitly stating Vitiate as the most powerful up to date, there's little room for debate imo.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Regardless, that station is conferred upon them by numerous canon sources.

And similarly canon sources indicate Kit Fisto, who did the most besides Mace in the confrontation and has the most "accolades" to his name, is explicitly just above AotC Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan Kenobi wouldn't last a fart in hell's chance against Sidious. So their standing is moot.



I don't doubt his knowledge, but it's been brought up that a much younger Qui-Gon Jinn became weaker, slower as he aged. If this is a valid stance, it's logical to assume that OT Sidious, while probably stronger in the Force and definitely more knowledgable, might not be as capable with a blade as he used to be.



Which is true, I agree.



Precisely because EU started off as over the top and ridiculous, and scaling down has not really occurred. DE started most of it, as did some of the other post-RotJ stuff and the authors went on to make TotJ/GAotS, which goes even further into ridiculousness. Then you have TOR, KotOR, etc. where cosmic level powers are the norm for top tier Force users, and for many many years this was exclusive to the EU. Even the PT films and the Clone Wars novels did not attempt to bridge this gap.

But then came TFU, the newer CW series, and more books and comics about Vader and Sidious to boost them to more respectable levels. If they had been that powerful in the first place, it wouldn't have bugged me. I even admitted that Vader is more powerful now than I had realized and I ranked him higher than Dooku, which you should know is the first time I've done as much.

But the problem becomes this sudden overemphasis on the movie era, to cater to movie-centric fans, and then the wanking starts to spiral out of control and you get abominations like TFU. If anything, I liked the idea of more moderate Force users in the PT/OT era because the emphasis was on the story, not the powers.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And similarly canon sources indicate Kit Fisto, who did the most besides Mace in the confrontation and has the most "accolades" to his name, is explicitly just above AotC Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan Kenobi wouldn't last a fart in hell's chance against Sidious. So their standing is moot.

Which speaks to how powerful Sidious is, not necessarily how weak they are. The characters who can contend with the Emperor are vastly outnumbered by those who are little more than cannon fodder.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't doubt his knowledge, but it's been brought up that a much younger Qui-Gon Jinn became weaker, slower as he aged. If this is a valid stance, it's logical to assume that OT Sidious, while probably stronger in the Force and definitely more knowledgable, might not be as capable with a blade as he used to be.

But what holds true for Qui-Gon isn't necessarily the case for other aged characters like Sidious, Dooku, etc. In fact, Sidious was Qui-Gon's age when he took on the Zabraks, Mace and the B-Team, and Yoda. While his natural physicality has diminished with age, he's clearly powerful enough to compensate.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Precisely because EU started off as over the top and ridiculous, and scaling down has not really occurred. DE started most of it, as did some of the other post-RotJ stuff and the authors went on to make TotJ/GAotS, which goes even further into ridiculousness. Then you have TOR, KotOR, etc. where cosmic level powers are the norm for top tier Force users, and for many many years this was exclusive to the EU. Even the PT films and the Clone Wars novels did not attempt to bridge this gap.

But then came TFU, the newer CW series, and more books and comics about Vader and Sidious to boost them to more respectable levels. If they had been that powerful in the first place, it wouldn't have bugged me. I even admitted that Vader is more powerful now than I had realized and I ranked him higher than Dooku, which you should know is the first time I've done as much.

But the problem becomes this sudden overemphasis on the movie era, to cater to movie-centric fans, and then the wanking starts to spiral out of control and you get abominations like TFU. If anything, I liked the idea of more moderate Force users in the PT/OT era because the emphasis was on the story, not the powers.

The problem is that, as you admit, the EU began this wankery. It seems to me that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I personally find most of it distasteful, regardless of whether or not it's movie- or EU-centric.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which speaks to how powerful Sidious is, not necessarily how weak they are. The characters who can contend with the Emperor are vastly outnumbered by those who are little more than cannon fodder.


True enough.



I personally agree. But I was the minority in that discussion.



I agree, but it's a little too late to level the playing field without basically making a bunch of G-canon look ridiculous in comparison.

If the films were edited to make Force usage more comparable, and some EU novels edited likewise, this might bridge the gap a bit. I'm not defending EU wankery at this point, but I simply don't have unrealistic expectations of it to be modest anymore, since it never was in the first place. The films, starting with the OT, were very modest and the early Clone Wars novels kept that basis.

It made more sense that a comfortable and relatively unchallenged Jedi would become complacent, and the adaptation of the Diplomat's Form over more practical dueling forms. In any case, the G-canon is better for storytelling, and the EU for empowering uber feats and up to 11 characters. Revan, arguably the most popular EU only character, is built around this concept rather neatly.

Freedon Nadd
To everyone's surprise I have done reading all the Dark Empire series at last, and Palpatine hasn't surprised me so "godly" in those cbooks as all of his fanboys claim him and portray him to be the "strongest Sith of all times". lol
Sidious was at most a better version of King Ommin.

Vitiate safely outmatches him so much under most aspects. It has become obvious for me that at this point Vitiate is indeed the strongest Sith of all times, followed by Darth Nihilus, then Exar Kun.


As the general Sith top goes(not Banite Sith) in brute strength in the Force:

1.Vitiate(Valkorion)
2.Darth Nihilus
3.Exar Kun
4.Darth Sidious/Darth Plagueis

Regarding the official lore Sidious should be on the 4th place because he had most showings in cbooks, unofficially I think ancient Sith>Sidious in Force power and , but we didn't see many of their showings so we can't just blindly assume things.

My favorite part is when the ancient Sith feel simpathetic for Sidious when they revealed his doom on Korriban.
"How can one who has ruled only a few *decades* command those who held dominion for *centuries*?" I love that line. Or when they questioned his authority entering in their Sith tombs because he couldn't stop the rapidly aging process of the clone.

ILS
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Sidious was at most a better version of King Ommin.http://i.imgur.com/E4fc5jX.gif

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cosmically, a list would include Palpatine's telepathic manipulation of Coruscant, his psychic subjugation of Byss and corruption of the planet, his rituals during the Clone Wars that aggravated Jedi anxiety and deepened the shroud of the dark side, and his ritual alongside Plagueis that disrupted the balance of the Force.

In terms of combat feats, he's disintegrated Sith wyrms and dark side adepts with Force lightning, defeated Starkiller, stalemated Yoda, massacred three of the Jedi order's premiere swordsmen, blitzed Maul and Opress, demonstrated superhuman strength and speed in excess of most Force users, etc.



I'm not saying OT!Sidious is necessarily stronger than DE!Sidious (it is confirmed his Force mastery improved after his death), but only that we can't assume a character is frail or otherwise unimpressive when both earlier and subsequent depictions of the same character is portrayed mightily.

But I think we're on the same page anyway, so that's cool.

1. While erasing the mind of Coruscant people is a feat, they were non-sensitives. Non-sensitives are not comparable with Force sensitives. Besides that, he corrupted Byss with his Dark Side Adepts, slowly draining them for decades, keep in mind, decades. He clouded the Jedi's mind because of that Sith shrine under the Jedi's temple, he had weakened them, and he had done that in long years, not a day. Their "midi-chlorian ritual" disrupted the Force, but there are many examples of past Sith Lords who could create rifts in the Force with their sheer raw strength in the Force.

2. I've looked for Wookieepedia for "Sith wyrm" section or "Force lightning" section, and I didn't find any to suggest Palpatine disintegrated such creatures, or that he disintegrated Dark Side Prophets.
May I ask the source for Sidious disintegrating Dark Side Prophets or Sith wyrms with his Force lightning?

Galen Marek was stronger in the Force than him during the movies, but he was more likely a version of Anakin, strong, but unskilled in comparision with Sidious.
I've seen the movies and Yoda had beaten Sidious, but withdrew because the clones were on the way. I could hardly say those were so skillful Jedi or the best of all times, they were some ordinary Jedi. He didn't blitz Maul or Oppress, he resorted to his Force strength to kill them, Sidious always does that. There are popular Sith or Jedi that can move as Sidious, he was a fast warrior, but not a DBZ-er.

3. Sidious is an impressive character, but in the end it depends of consumer if really thinks Sidious is a Sith god. lol Sidious was the best at cunning, deception and manipulation, that was all.
Let's not summon the worm holes 'cause he already said in his Dark Side Compendium it had nothing to do with one's strength in the Force. Impressive feat, but it was an ancient technique as well.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by ILS
http://i.imgur.com/E4fc5jX.gif

Don'get mad with me, but you didn't invent Star Wars, you merely create a thread based on your own logic. While some are pretty well made, there are many threads in which a character, more likely like Sidious is elevated at god status by some Sidious brainwashed obsessed fanboys who cannot comprehend properly some hyperbolic sentences . By the way, I've read your Exar Kun thread. And it was attractive. smile

Such obsessed fanboys I know are:

ShootingNova
TheVivas
Silver2467(a little)

Trocity
I wish you would just stay away.

FreshestSlice
Doesn't matter. I heard Disney plans on cutting the EU anyway.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Trocity
I wish you would just stay away.

Because I ruin your dream of Sidious strongest Shit*?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Doesn't matter. I heard Disney plans on cutting the EU anyway.

They did it already.

Trocity
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Because I ruin your dream of Sidious strongest Shit*?

No, because you are retarded.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
They did it already.
No shit? When?

Sinious
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

As the general Sith top goes(not Banite Sith) in brute strength in the Force:

1.Vitiate(Valkorion)
2.Darth Nihilus
3.Exar Kun
4.Darth Sidious/Darth Plagueis

LOL no

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Trocity
No, because you are retarded.

Then tell me why I am not right?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
LOL no

Yes it does. Prove me the contrary if not.

Sinious
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yes it does. Prove me the contrary if not. If I have to prove why Sidious, who has already surpassed Plagueis after TPM is superior to him during DE, you must be really stupid.

Plagueis > Kun so lol @ Kun > Sidious.

Nihilus is hard to gauge and is absolutely not above the very best.

Valkorion rivals Sidious in raw power and an argument can be made for him but even he didnt reach the destructive level that Sidious has reached.

FreshestSlice
Your argument is as gross as his with more destruction = more power tbh.

Raptor22
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. While erasing the mind of Coruscant people is a feat, they were non-sensitives. Non-sensitives are not comparable with Force sensitives. Besides that, he corrupted Byss with his Dark Side Adepts, slowly draining them for decades, keep in mind, decades. He clouded the Jedi's mind because of that Sith shrine under the Jedi's temple, he had weakened them, and he had done that in long years, not a day. Their "midi-chlorian ritual" disrupted the Force, but there are many examples of past Sith Lords who could create rifts in the Force with their sheer raw strength in the Force.

2. I've looked for Wookieepedia for "Sith wyrm" section or "Force lightning" section, and I didn't find any to suggest Palpatine disintegrated such creatures, or that he disintegrated Dark Side Prophets.
May I ask the source for Sidious disintegrating Dark Side Prophets or Sith wyrms with his Force lightning?

Galen Marek was stronger in the Force than him during the movies, but he was more likely a version of Anakin, strong, but unskilled in comparision with Sidious.
I've seen the movies and Yoda had beaten Sidious, but withdrew because the clones were on the way. I could hardly say those were so skillful Jedi or the best of all times, they were some ordinary Jedi. He didn't blitz Maul or Oppress, he resorted to his Force strength to kill them, Sidious always does that. There are popular Sith or Jedi that can move as Sidious, he was a fast warrior, but not a DBZ-er.

3. Sidious is an impressive character, but in the end it depends of consumer if really thinks Sidious is a Sith god. lol Sidious was the best at cunning, deception and manipulation, that was all.
Let's not summon the worm holes 'cause he already said in his Dark Side Compendium it had nothing to do with one's strength in the Force. Impressive feat, but it was an ancient technique as well. the wyrm feat is from Sithisis, a short story/comic from the star wars visionaries collection.

Trocity
http://i.imgur.com/gzXcxe8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3GxFhxf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CecIkoU.jpg

Zenwolf
Wow the necro!

Also since Trocity put the wyrm thing, guess i'll do the dark prophets.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/2_zpshvm5byxh.png

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/6_zpswtkk2rul.png

Who were powerful enough to resurrect Darth Maul.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/21_zpsgheh8snv.png

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Trocity
http://i.imgur.com/gzXcxe8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3GxFhxf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CecIkoU.jpg

Ah that Sith wyrm.

Darth Sidious performed an arcane and horrifying Sith ritual where he summoned a worm-like creature from inside a holocron, eating it, and casted Force lightning on a LARGE CRYSTAL, causing a storm on Coruscant, filling the Jedi with unease and fear, as well as fueling Anakin Skywalker's lust for power. All the while he wallowed and writhed in the dark side's embrace, shaping the very fate of the galaxy. A similar but enormous worm-like creature bursted from the holocron and devoured Sidious. The ritual ends abruptly with the Sith Lord reducing the worm to dust, and he emerges from his chamber and goes through a procession of Red Guards, giving off the calm and friendly image of the Chancellor.

Actually because he casted a lightning on that LARGE CRYSTAL helped him to reduce the worm to dust. It doesn't surprise me that. I could suggest that since the holocron was of a Sith nature it doesn't kill the chance he was amped by its miasma. I mean that holocron had to be similar to a dark side small nexus since it contained a Sith wyrm. lol

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Wow the necro!

Also since Trocity put the wyrm thing, guess i'll do the dark prophets.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/2_zpshvm5byxh.png

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/6_zpswtkk2rul.png

Who were powerful enough to resurrect Darth Maul.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Wolfninja/21_zpsgheh8snv.png


1. Where did this happen?

2. As far as I have seen in the depictions, those three Dark Side Prophets were assaulted by surprise by Darth Sidious, not to mention that happened when they were with their back unprotected, so I can't really count it as a feat for him, since they didn't even have the chance to defend themselves.

3. Those three Dark Side Prophets weren't even disintegrated such as that Sith wyrm, they just died having their skin, burned, or maybe even about that I might be wrong since they wore black-grey robes, and I can't see the difference.

So it proves that the LARGE CRYSTAL did indeed help Sidious to disintegrate that Sith wyrm.
That's nice to know, I thought the authors got mad and made Sidious luicrously OP, but that's not the reason. Glad of that. smile

It seems it's all about the consumer.

Trocity
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Actually because he casted a lightning on that LARGE CRYSTAL helped him to reduce the worm to dust.

lolwut

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
3.They weren't even disintegrated such as the Sith wyrm, they just died having their skin, burned, or maybe even about that I might be wrong since they wore black-grey robes, and I can't see the difference.http://i.imgur.com/ATIxKDV.jpg?1

You're right tbh, prolly just third degree. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2570579909.png

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
If I have to prove why Sidious, who has already surpassed Plagueis after TPM is superior to him during DE, you must be really stupid.

Plagueis > Kun so lol @ Kun > Sidious.

Nihilus is hard to gauge and is absolutely not above the very best.

Valkorion rivals Sidious in raw power and an argument can be made for him but even he didnt reach the destructive level that Sidious has reached.

Prove Plagueis>Kun?

Nihilus is on second place in raw power after Vitiate, since he TK'ed his ship with his vessels from Malachor V's gravitational wells and kept them throughout the galaxy doing his daily shit. Kreia knew they needed a plan in order to defeat him, Nihilus had to be weakened to be defeated.

While I agree Nihilus is not that aknowledged regarding the dark side, he's powerful enough to send most of Sith Lords out of orbit, except Sidious, Plagueis, Exar Kun and Vitiate.

Valkorion surpassed Sidious, if you realize how insignificant is Sidious in comparision with Vitiate I'd give you a cookie. xD

Just because Vitiate didn't know that worm hole trick, doesn't make him inferior to Sidious.

Vitiate is truly the most powerful Dark Lord in the galactic history.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Beniboybling
http://i.imgur.com/ATIxKDV.jpg?1

You're right tbh, prolly just third degree. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2570579909.png

I thought they were disintegrated, not having any body left, I thought they were completely vanquished. And still it doesn't change the fact that Sidious ambushed them behind their back, I really can't give him credit for that.

C'mon even Nyriss turned Scourge into a charred husk, and she is way inferior to Vitiate. Most Sith Lords of the Old Era could turn their enemies into ash.

I ask again, where has happened that?

Beniboybling
Except Scourge is still alive. mmm

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except Scourge is still alive. mmm

IIRC Nyriss still turned a few guardians in smoking charred husks when they came to get her. While I'll take it or admit that those guardians were non-Force sensitives, and they couldn't withstand such power, thus they were incinerated, it can be said the same about those Dark Side Prophets who weren't prepared to defend themselves despite being Forceful when Palpatine ambushed them. And yet, Nyriss's Force lightning was still far more effective, when we take into account that neither of their opponents couldn't defend themselves. To Nyriss, because they were likely non-sensitives, to Sidious, because they were taken by surprise. Still Nyriss's lightning looks more potent if you take it that way.

Sinious
This guy's Sidious lowballing is so pathetic I can't even take it seriously.

Trocity
He desperately claims non-existent amps.

DarthAnt66
Do you have any examples, tbh?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
IIRC Nyriss still turned a few guardians in smoking charred husks when they came to get her. While I'll take it or admit that those guardians were non-Force sensitives, and they couldn't withstand such power, thus they were incinerated, it can be said the same about those Dark Side Prophets who weren't prepared to defend themselves despite being Forceful when Palpatine ambushed them. And yet, Nyriss's Force lightning was still far more effective, when we take into account that neither of their opponents couldn't defend themselves. To Nyriss, because they were likely non-sensitives, to Sidious, because they were taken by surprise. Still Nyriss's lightning looks more potent if you take it that way. Lol charred husks =/= incinerated bro.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol charred husks =/= incinerated bro.
For someone who has said this

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Simply because the Star Forge channeled the dark side, does not make it a nexus, specifically one that dampens a Jedi's connection to the Force.

And that only leaves two explanations, that the Star Forge wasn't a DS nexus, or just wasn't strong enough.
in the past, and that Depa is a "rival" of Windu, you can't speak.

ROFL.

Beniboybling
http://i.imgur.com/1c301Zp.jpg

DarthAnt66
http://www.sooriginal.com/

I'll sign you up for classes. thumb up

Beniboybling
https://irony.codeplex.com/

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.sooriginal.com/

I'll sign you up for classes. thumb up

Beniboybling
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3c/54/cf/3c54cfa19060ccbea9ca669aaa752af4.gif

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66
Anyway, getting back on topic:

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
This guy's Sidious lowballing is so pathetic I can't even take it seriously.

For the fact that Sidious is the 4th most powerful Sith Lord, I am lowballing him. :/ lol

He could beat in Force most of the Sith Lords. I am not lowballing him at all.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Trocity
He desperately claims non-existent amps.

I didn't say he was amped when he electrocuted the Dark Side Adepts, I said where was the place Sidious killed them?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
For the fact that Sidious is the 4th most powerful Sith Lord, I am lowballing him. :/ lol





I'm pretty sure it's a fact that he's the Most Powerful. As stated multiple times in various sources.

Sinious
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
For the fact that Sidious is the 4th most powerful Sith Lord, I am lowballing him. :/ lol

He could beat in Force most of the Sith Lords. I am not lowballing him at all. This is one of the most illogical things I've heard in these forums tbh.

Sidious has better feats than any other sith in the mythos. So why don't you present an argument for the other sith you see as his superiors? I would recommend constructing an argument mostly based on feats rather than accolades since Sidious also has accolades that put him in no.1 automatically. thumb up

AncientPower
Force and Destiny doesn't make it so definitive anymore on that front. Not that I doubt he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time but the tip toeing has become increasingly more noticeable.

Freedon Nadd

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by AncientPower
Force and Destiny doesn't make it so definitive anymore on that front. Not that I doubt he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time but the tip toeing has become increasingly more noticeable.

This.

Keep in mind that Sidious was declared "most powerful Sith" by other characters of his time who didn't face Vitiate, neither Nihilus, and it remains available only in the G-canon.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
This is one of the most illogical things I've heard in these forums tbh.

Sidious has better feats than any other sith in the mythos. So why don't you present an argument for the other sith you see as his superiors? I would recommend constructing an argument mostly based on feats rather than accolades since Sidious also has accolades that put him in no.1 automatically. thumb up

Bring me some feats and let's analyze them(I might be out for a period, but I'll respond as soon as I can)

Can't you understand, that the *new* Sith have surpassed Sidious in showings!?

Heck, when Sidious travelled to Korriban to hold his clone from dying because he couldn't stop the aging process(lol he couldn't), the ancient Sith practically mocked him in the face, and all he could do was to mumble, untill the old Sith felt pity and showed him how he's gonna die.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by AncientPower
Force and Destiny doesn't make it so definitive anymore on that front. Not that I doubt he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time but the tip toeing has become increasingly more noticeable.


Does it say something to put doubt on it?

AncientPower
Basically that he might be the most powerful ever, not with total certainty.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Does it say something to put doubt on it?

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/palpatine_zpso0gcvxd1.png

carthage
But..but.. Valkorion!

The_Tempest
Originally posted by carthage
But..but.. Valkorion!

Hey, don't be discouraged. Valkorion is mentioned plenty of once in the book. thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The extent of the burning, charred is associated with the facade, and incineration with the total consumption to ashes....


One results in remains and the other in ashes......Exactly... if husks (of flesh/skin) remained clearly they were not reduced to ashes i.e. incinerated thumb up

AncientPower
Valkorion is irrelevant to a discussion regarding the supreme Sith, his prime incarnation has completely raised above that ideology, not only in practice but personality. Really, anyone claiming he is still Sith needs a serious bias check.

Personally, I don't think you can even call him Vitiate anymore given the datamining shit I have heard about Chapter 10+.

The_Tempest
Guess the Codex writers need a bias check. erm

BTW... A guy whose handle is AncientPower and who spends his time trying to put "ancient" characters over their successors... Might not be the best person to lecture others on bias lol.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion is irrelevant to a discussion regarding the supreme Sith, his prime incarnation has completely raised above that ideology, not only in practice but personality. Really, anyone claiming he is still Sith needs a serious bias check.

Personally, I don't think you can even call him Vitiate anymore given the datamining shit I have heard about Chapter 10+. Valkorion may no longer identify with Sith teaching but as an "ancient Sith entity" who created a Sith Empire he is still part of Sith history.

Just in the same way Palpatine remains part of the history of the Rule of Two, despite eventually abandoning it in favour of his "Rule of One."

The_Tempest
Beni slaughter-housing tbh thumb up

AncientPower
A codex entry you've completely taken out of context is indeed an indication of your unending, unchanging bias yes. Even Valkorion's dialogue makes it crystal clear that even associating him with the Sith Empire anymore is retarded.

My username has nothing to do with Ancient Sith, paranoia got the better of you? Oh and I'm not Legend so that's kind of way off base. I respect the hype of the Ancient Sith, but not out of any kind of bias; I simply refuse to handwave evidence.

The_Tempest
No, I simply take it out of your preferred context, which is the context you manufacture to suit your bias and isn't actually the real context.

And if simply saying you're not biased means you're not biased, then no one here is biased.

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower

Oh and I'm not Legend so that's kind of way off base
laughing out loud

AncientPower
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion may no longer identify with Sith teaching but as an "ancient Sith entity" who created a Sith Empire he is still part of Sith history.

Just in the same way Palpatine remains part of the history of the Rule of Two, despite eventually abandoning it in favour of his "Rule of One."

Him being historically relevant to the Sith has absolutely no bearing on the fact his latest incarnation has distanced himself entirely from the Sith Empire and the ideologies therein. He isn't Sith anymore, as Vader isn't a Jedi anymore. Your attempted denial of logic has no grounds to stand on given how order-exclusive statements are inherently exclusive to those within that order.

If it makes you feel any better, in a Sith exclusive world I certainly agree that Reborn Emperor Palpatine > Sith Emperor Vitiate. Immortal Emperor Valkorion just doesn't swim with those Baracuda.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I simply take it out of your preferred context, which is the context you manufacture to suit your bias and isn't actually the real context.

And if simply saying you're not biased means you're not biased, then no one here is biased.

Except for the fact that your entire basis for making Valkorion inclusive of the ring of Sith that Palpatine's statements pertain to, is solely a descriptory statement regarding the past of the character in question.

On the contrary to your stretched interpretation of that codex entry, is the fact that every character in KOTFE, including Valkorion, couldn't make it any clearer that he isn't connected with that Force using order anymore.

He was a Sith and ruled over all the other Sith in the galaxy for a millennium as the Emperor; he then decided that the entire ideology of that order was flawed and decided to found an institution far superior to his current one. He then turns on the Sith completely and undergoes a huge personality makeover to boot.

Is it bias on your part, to discredit literally all of that evidence to your contrary, by 'interpreting' a single codex entry to suit your own agenda? That's actually textbook bias, now that I think about it.

Really, this is a desperate stance on your part and is frankly beneath your baiting skills.

The_Tempest
Yes, yes, we've been through all this before.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
He isn't Sith anymore, as Vader isn't a Jedi anymore.And yet is referred to in present tense, as a Sith entity, and whose recent rise to power was the product of Sith ritual. You grossly exaggerate how "distanced" Valkorion has become by comparing him to Anakin's transformation into Vader. His disconnect is purely ideological (and really only applicable to "archaic" Sith teaching), as it was with Palpatine - or Bane for that matter, but he retains many ties to the Sith nonetheless.But it's not order exclusive is it? The statement refers to Sith history which:Valkorion is absolutely a part of. thumb upNo offense, but I couldn't care less about where you rank Sheev, though the idea that ROTJ Palpatine doesn't > Vitiate is at least entertaining.

FreshestSlice
The codex is written by an unseen, unknown random.
Valkorion himself says he isn't a Sith

Actual person> background info


Who the **** cares anyway? Argue feats, you heathens.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The codex is written by an unseen, unknown random.You mean by BioWare. It's an objective source bro. erm

FreshestSlice
The codex is in-universe, smart one.

Beniboybling
Proof? You realise it has info on game mechanics and such yes?

FreshestSlice
Because it's based solely on information the player has access to?

Like for a second, just a second, pretend that this is a video game. The journal has and always had been a framing device for BioWare; hell, it's usually written by the player. The fact that it speaks about game mechanics doesn't change that it's built around and for the player.

Beniboybling
It being built for and around the player doesn't make in a subjective in-universe source, anymore than it does the SWTORE, it makes it relevant and informative. erm

Bearing in mind of course, that the player is only given access to this information by reading the entries. roll eyes (sarcastic)

EDIT: Heck as a recall one codex entry actually had spoilers for the plot.

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who the **** cares anyway? Argue feats, you heathens.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It being built for and around the player doesn't make in a subjective in-universe source, anymore than it does the SWTORE, it makes it relevant and informative. erm

SWTORE is also in-universe. How does that help your argument?

No. It's kind of like the player hears something, and then it goes into the codex.

Then you recalled wrong because these codex entries open up right after the plot points happen, including, surprise surprise, this one.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
SWTORE is also in-universe. How does that help your argument?So the SWTORE is an inaccurate source too now? ermExcept not everything heard in the codex is told to the player, certainly not game mechanics. thumb up

Not that it makes any sense for the protag to record this stuff in some codex...No I didn't and I remember the entry now, being the one on Nox Drayen. Which tells you he was frozen in carbonite before the reveal.

Not that Valkorion ever tells you he is an ancient Sith entity. mmm

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who the **** cares anyway? Argue feats, you heathens.

lol

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So the SWTORE is an inaccurate source too now? erm

If you say so. I certainly didn't. Hell, I didn't even say the codex was completely inaccurate.

That's a pretty retarded retorte. Given that game mechanics don't actually, you know, exist.

Exactly right, the player should just remember random events forever and BioWare should not try to keep track of it. thumb up

no expression Except that doesn't unlock until you unfreeze him...

No, the entire backstory for the goddamn game tells you that when you install it. Seriously.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If you say so. I certainly didn't. Hell, I didn't even say the codex was completely inaccurate.Except when you want it to be. mmmExactly, so how could that be in an in-universe source? confused
https://media1.giphy.com/media/sjTEF3Gtw8FOw/200.gif
As I said it unlocks before the reveal, unless it's been changed, it was kinda dumb.
You appear to be confusing the player with the protag...

Anyway this conversation is getting boring, and I hardly see the point considering whether or not it is in-universe, doesn't change the fact it is objective, and doesn't necessarily contradict what Valkorion is saying.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/palpatine_zpso0gcvxd1.png

1. When was this written?

2. It says that "his power may be unparaleled", which it has already been surpassed, e.g:Vitiate, Nihilus, Exar Kun.

"may be" already gave free way to "it is", when you take in consideration Vitiate's showings for example.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly... if husks (of flesh/skin) remained clearly they were not reduced to ashes i.e. incinerated thumb up

I think I have misspoken when I said Nyriss turned others into charred husks, she incinerated them, and she wanted to do the same thing to the Jedi Exile and Scourge until Revan screwed her plans. More likely Sidious turned those Dark Side Prophets into charred husks, because their skeletons were still there.

Beniboybling
You didn't mispeak, that it what it says in the text:thumb up

P.S. And for the record, a husk is an outer membrane, not an endoskeleton.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. When was this written?

2. It says that "his power may be unparaleled", which it has already been surpassed, e.g:Vitiate, Nihilus, Exar Kun.

"may be" already gave free way to "it is", when you take in consideration Vitiate's showings for example.

1. 2015

2. If his power had definitely been surpassed, they wouldn't have phrased it the way they did.

3. See number 2 and, from the same source:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/legends%20conceit_zpsm9weeiy1.png

Palpatine was declared the most powerful Sith of all {again} in Legends earlier this year in the prologue to the Empire Volume 1 Omnibus.

This book is apparently canon and apparently regards the Legends feats of ancient Jedi and Sith ambiguously.

Deronn_solo
The concept of a Exar Kun and Nhililus being above Sidious is outlandish. They're so many sources that puts him above the two that it isn't even worth discussion. Vitiate has a bit more wiggle room, but he's still inferior to Palpatine as far as I'm concerned.

The_Tempest
Agreed, DC. thumb up

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You didn't mispeak, that it what it says in the text:thumb up

P.S. And for the record, a husk is an outer membrane, not an endoskeleton.

I wanted to say I "misspoke", because I wrote that yesterday, tonight, and I was a little sleepy. Sorry for that.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by The_Tempest
1. 2015

2. If his power had definitely been surpassed, they wouldn't have phrased it the way they did.

3. See number 2 and, from the same source:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/legends%20conceit_zpsm9weeiy1.png

Palpatine was declared the most powerful Sith of all {again} in Legends earlier this year in the prologue to the Empire Volume 1 Omnibus.

This book is apparently canon and apparently regards the Legends feats of ancient Jedi and Sith ambiguously.

Wait, you said this is 2015 which puts Sidious the strongest Sith in Disney canon, which he is. lol And it was said that Legends Sith Lords are nothing compared to the Disney canon regarding Darth Sidious, because they don't exist. Of course that states the truth, but here we speak about Legends, not "new canon" which makes Sidious the strongest Sith in the entire existence...

The Omnibus releases specify the time a story takes place in for each story arc.

One final question, who wrote this "article"? Is he/she aware of our most powerful popular Sith Lords's feats?(Vitiate, Nihilus)

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The concept of a Exar Kun and Nhililus being above Sidious is outlandish. They're so many sources that puts him above the two that it isn't even worth discussion. Vitiate has a bit more wiggle room, but he's still inferior to Palpatine as far as I'm concerned.

Nihilus, Vitiate and Exar Kun are above him in showings and raw strength in the Force, I don't care if Palpatine is "the most powerful Sith Lord" lol, as long as he doesn't have the necessarly showings to compete , he isn't.

About Kun, he was depicted in a poorly comic book, and he hadn't all of his proper showings in comparision with Darth Sidious, the main evil of the Star Wars Saga, Kun simply had a short appearance. Don't forget that in a source, Odan Urr and Vodo Siosk Baas were compared to Yoda and Windu, Odan Urr being Yoda, and Vodo Siosk Baas being Windu. Kun at least killed them both, he didn't need to fake for Ulic-Qel-Droma to save him.

Now Exar Kun would definitely beat Darth Sidious in a match(remember that while Sidious was a 7ls master, he didn't hold that kind of performance because was too busy for politics and all that manipulation, he resorted to Force powers more and more in a fight, all of his fights(Windu, Yoda, Maul and Oppres), so even if he was a consummate 7ls master, his skills were vastly degraded), but, but, but, Exar Kun would be extremely damaged, he would probably barely hold on his feet.

If you go and analyze Vitiate's feats you will see why he surpasses Sidious. At least Vitiate didn't need to live in clones, he could live as a spirit, Sidious couldn't, and Vitiate was able to bend Jedi alike Sith to his will just at his whims.

Trocity
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Don't forget that in a source, Odan Urr and Vodo Siosk Baas were compared to Yoda and Windu, Odan Urr being Yoda, and Vodo Siosk Baas being Windu.

Stop taking that quote out of context.


Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
At least Vitiate didn't need to live in clones, he could live as a spirit, Sidious couldn't, and Vitiate was able to bend Jedi alike Sith to his will just at his whims.

lol.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Nihilus, Vitiate and Exar Kun are above him in showings and raw strength in the Force
I stopped reading right here, if I'm being honest. I'll respond when I get the time, nonetheless.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

Nihilus, Vitiate and Exar Kun are above him in showings and raw strength in the Force.

Yeah, not really.

Sidious ability to effortlessly summon hyperspace wormholes throughout the galaxy that sport the power to "kill" planets and swallow entire fleets of ships - some of whom has the defensive capabilities to deflect assaults that are measured in the teraton range is the very epitome of raw power. Neither Vittiate, Nihlus and especially Kun has showed this kind of raw destructive output.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

I don't care if Palpatine is "the most powerful Sith Lord"

Considering everyone you're attempting to place above Sidious are Sith Lords, then yeah - it certainly should be one of your primary concerns.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

lol, as long as he doesn't have the necessarily showings to compete

Except, he does.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd , he isn't.

LAL.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

About Kun, he was depicted in a poorly comic book, and he hadn't all of his proper showings in comparision with Darth Sidious, the main evil of the Star Wars Saga, Kun simply had a short appearance.

In other words; Kun's showing are largely inferior, and this is just a poorly constructed argument for you to circumvent Sidious inevitable superiority? mmm

I'll take that, KEK. thumb up

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd Don't forget that in a source, Odan Urr and Vodo Siosk Baas were compared to Yoda and Windu, Odan Urr being Yoda, and Vodo Siosk Baas being Windu.

Only in a metaphorical sense, my dear. The quote only means that, like Mace and Yoda during their time, Odan and Vodo was the most well respected and powerful Jedi during their time, hence the comparison. It has nothing to do with Odan and Vodo being comparable to Yoda and Mace in power, or skill in a umbrella sense. Only that their position and power for their time mirrored Yoda and Mace's position and power for their time. So are Vodo and Odan the most well respected and powerful Jedi in the Order during their days? Sure they are, but does that mean they share parity with Jedi that existed thousands of years after they did because of their Uno and Dos position in theirs? Not in this life time. Context, dude, context.

Now, an isolated look at Yoda and Mace's feats/accolades in juxtaposition with the ancient Jedi would lead us to the unavoidable conclusion that Yoda would solo both Vodo and Odan in conjunction.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd Kun at least killed them both, he didn't need to fake for Ulic-Qel-Droma to save him.

How about that false equivalency? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd Now Exar Kun would definitely beat Darth Sidious in a match

laughing out loud

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

(remember that while Sidious was a 7ls master, he didn't hold that kind of performance because was too busy for politics and all that manipulation, he resorted to Force powers more and more in a fight, all of his fights(Windu, Yoda, Maul and Oppres), so even if he was a consummate 7ls master, his skills were vastly degraded)mbut, but, but, Exar Kun would be extremely damaged, he would probably barely hold on his feet.

You see, all of this gibberish is based on virtually nothing. Sidious penchant for using the Force in his duels says nothing about his lack of dueling skill - it only details about his willingness to use an asset he greatly prefers over lightsabers (Sidious has gone on record saying has a disdain for Lightsaber duels in general, and see's it as far and away inferior to the Force) You can buy into your nonsensical stance that Palpatine's Lightsaber skills degraded, while I relish in the fact that Sheev fought on even terms with perhaps the greatest swordsman in the entire mythos in Yoda.

thumb up


Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
If you go and analyze Vitiate's feats you will see why he surpasses Sidious.

Please do. I'm all ears, here.


Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
At least Vitiate didn't need to live in clones, he could live as a spirit, Sidious couldn't

I'm pretty sure Palpatine was able to resist Chaos with sheer will power and exist as a spirit perfectly fine. mmm

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
and Vitiate was able to bend Jedi alike Sith to his will just at his whims.

Oh, so he has elite TP?

Good thing Sidious does as well. You know, using BM across Lightyears, dropping Vader while he's on another planet, subtly manipulating Darth Plagueis, and casually eliciting a haze of confusions that effected multiple Jedi simultaneously. thumb up

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, not really.

Sidious ability to effortlessly summon hyperspace wormholes throughout the galaxy that sport the power to "kill" planets and swallow entire fleets of ships - some of whom has the defensive capabilities to deflect assaults that are measured in the teraton range is the very epitome of raw power. Neither Vittiate, Nihlus and especially Kun has showed this kind of raw destructive output.







https://ionetheurbandaily.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/moreno-crying-gif.gif

Nephthys
That guy is like, soul crying. You Yanks must take football pretty damn seriously.

FreshestSlice
People from the South don't appreciate being called Yanks, you swine.

quanchi112
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
People from the South don't appreciate being called Yanks, you swine. It is cuz you lost that civil war. North > South for all time.

FreshestSlice
No. No that's not why. Not sure why you're trying to bait with that anyway. Doesn't really fit.

quanchi112
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. No that's not why. Not sure why you're trying to bait with that anyway. Doesn't really fit. I just don't see why someone saying yank would hit such a nerve if that wasn't the case. Overly sensitive ?

Lord Stark
Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion is irrelevant to a discussion regarding the supreme Sith, his prime incarnation has completely raised above that ideology, not only in practice but personality. Really, anyone claiming he is still Sith needs a serious bias check.

Personally, I don't think you can even call him Vitiate anymore given the datamining shit I have heard about Chapter 10+.

Links?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by quanchi112
I just don't see why someone saying yank would hit such a nerve if that wasn't the case. Overly sensitive ?
Uh no. First, yank is a derogatory term. Plenty don't like it because of the connotation. Second, Southerners like to be distinct from Northerners. That was true before the Civil War.

DarthAnt66
>implying anyone cares about Southerns

quanchi112
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Uh no. First, yank is a derogatory term. Plenty don't like it because of the connotation. Second, Southerners like to be distinct from Northerners. That was true before the Civil War. So you're very sensitive. I dint find it derogatory at all but then again I'm from Ohio. Southerners drink too much sweet tea anyways and I find that to be disgusting.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
>implying anyone cares about Southerns
>implying you spelled Southerners right

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
>implying anyone cares about Southerns

FreshestSlice
We don't pay taxes for you to waste that education. Spell it right, damn it.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
>implying anyone cares about Southerns

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, not really.

Sidious ability to effortlessly summon hyperspace wormholes throughout the galaxy that sport the power to "kill" planets and swallow entire fleets of ships - some of whom has the defensive capabilities to deflect assaults that are measured in the teraton range is the very epitome of raw power. Neither Vittiate, Nihlus and especially Kun has showed this kind of raw destructive output.



Considering everyone you're attempting to place above Sidious are Sith Lords, then yeah - it certainly should be one of your primary concerns.



Except, he does.



LAL.



In other words; Kun's showing are largely inferior, and this is just a poorly constructed argument for you to circumvent Sidious inevitable superiority? mmm

I'll take that, KEK. thumb up



Only in a metaphorical sense, my dear. The quote only means that, like Mace and Yoda during their time, Odan and Vodo was the most well respected and powerful Jedi during their time, hence the comparison. It has nothing to do with Odan and Vodo being comparable to Yoda and Mace in power, or skill in a umbrella sense. Only that their position and power for their time mirrored Yoda and Mace's position and power for their time. So are Vodo and Odan the most well respected and powerful Jedi in the Order during their days? Sure they are, but does that mean they share parity with Jedi that existed thousands of years after they did because of their Uno and Dos position in theirs? Not in this life time. Context, dude, context.

Now, an isolated look at Yoda and Mace's feats/accolades in juxtaposition with the ancient Jedi would lead us to the unavoidable conclusion that Yoda would solo both Vodo and Odan in conjunction.



How about that false equivalency? roll eyes (sarcastic)



laughing out loud



You see, all of this gibberish is based on virtually nothing. Sidious penchant for using the Force in his duels says nothing about his lack of dueling skill - it only details about his willingness to use an asset he greatly prefers over lightsabers (Sidious has gone on record saying has a disdain for Lightsaber duels in general, and see's it as far and away inferior to the Force) You can buy into your nonsensical stance that Palpatine's Lightsaber skills degraded, while I relish in the fact that Sheev fought on even terms with perhaps the greatest swordsman in the entire mythos in Yoda.

thumb up




Please do. I'm all ears, here.




I'm pretty sure Palpatine was able to resist Chaos with sheer will power and exist as a spirit perfectly fine. mmm



Oh, so he has elite TP?

Good thing Sidious does as well. You know, using BM across Lightyears, dropping Vader while he's on another planet, subtly manipulating Darth Plagueis, and casually eliciting a haze of confusions that effected multiple Jedi simultaneously. thumb up http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11124/111242954/4703379-accolade2.jpg

See the last paragraph.

And also you should remember of how weakened were the Jedi in the New Republic, you know Sidious.

3.Yeah sure, lol, Sidious thought himself superior over the lightsabers because he was strong in raw power, true, that's why he didn't keep to use it anymore. But no matter how good you are, if you don't hold that performance, your skills are gonna degrade, real-life examples are many. Remember that quote, "Sidious's lightsaber hadn't seen the lightday for decades."
Just read or watch, and you can see that Maul was always training on his own, or with robot droids, same for Vader. You can't say that shit, because he has a "disdain", when you stop training, your skills degrade, period.

Yoda was the greatest, perhaps, but not the best. And I was so sure you would say Luke Skywalker was the "greatest" in mythos. lol

4.Palpatine wasn't able to resist the Chaos, he was disembodied there. All those who are darksided such as the Sith are disembodied in the Chaos, the Chaos is the dimension where they(bad guys) suffer for eternity. And it was some Sith spirits who guided him back to the living world(lol what a bullshit), if he could truly exist as a spirit, then he wouldn't have needed clones, or Leia's child, he could have been just as Vitiate. Yet, he wasn't.

5.Yes, Sidious has Elite TP.

6.What has to do Battle Meditation with that, with his raw strength in the Force?

Also, the use and effect of battle meditation in in Heir to the Empire, when Grand Admiral Thrawn explains to Joruus C'baoth and Gilad Pellaeon his own theory as to why the Battle of Endor was lost; he believed that Palpatine employed the power to an unwise degree, taking such close control of the Imperial forces as to make them puppets, almost incapable of fighting on their own when his influence was suddenly removed (the use of battle meditation at Endor was later revealed and attributed to Admiral Nial Declann instead of Palpatine).

If you mean a Force choke, by "dropping Vader", then you should realize that as long the contact is made, you can do that.

He manipulated Plagueis, of course, but he didn't do it using the Force, he just took advantage of Plagueis's arrogance and "clouded" his mind.

If you mean of how he weakened the Jedi prior TCW, then you should realize he did with a Sith shrine beneath their Jedi Temple, and he did that for long decades, not a shit done in a few seconds.
The Jedi Temple was built over the Sith shrine, to curb its corrupting influence, perhaps. As for the reasons why they were built, well, for the same reasons in Legends, one would expect: the Jedi being far more decentralised had many libraries, academies, enclaves and temples throughout the galaxy, and the Sith once ruled the galaxy so likewise had many different outposts. Some would be headquarters of individual Masters or Lords, some would be for training new apprentices, some would be for storing lost knowledge, some would be for meditation or specialised Force uses e.g. rituals, some would be tombs...

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Links?

This

However you take it, Vitiate is stated as a Sith Lord in the EU.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Trocity
Stop taking that quote out of context.




lol.

He could, unless your prove me the contrary. And I think when it comes about Darth Sidious, most of you Sidious fanboys are taking many things about him out of context. wink

Nephthys
I didn't know it was a derogatory term, but still:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
>implying anyone cares about Southerns

FreshestSlice
Who cares? It'd be like me calling you a feb. And DC is in the South. They'll send the army to defend freedom if you keep mocking them.

Nephthys
I don't know what a feb is. Are you calling me a month or something? Cuz I'd rather be a bit warmer.

Deronn_solo
The utter lack of respect for the South here is disgusting.
sad

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know what a feb is. Are you calling me a month or something? Cuz I'd rather be a bit warmer.

Limey, then?

Either way, it's more odd than it is insulting. We haven't really identified ourselves as yanks in like, a century. Or two.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The utter lack of respect for the South here is disgusting.
sad Well, they did get crushed in the civil war and still aren't over it.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Limey, then?

Either way, it's more odd than it is insulting. We haven't really identified ourselves as yanks in like, a century. Or two.

Yeah, Limey and Yank are more comical and odd than insulting in my view. They're silly words to say.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know what a feb is. Are you calling me a month or something? Cuz I'd rather be a bit warmer.
Yep. Definitely a feb.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The utter lack of respect for the South here is disgusting.
sad
People would respect the South more if it would move on with life and nuke Florida, ignoring Miami, Orlando, and South Beach; and Alabama.

Freedon Nadd
Also now that I think better. . .

If I recall correctly, that's a passage from the novelization of ROTS(Sithisis) The whole thing is a metaphor. Sidious doesn't literally shoot a crystal or have worms emerging from holocrons that he consumes and then consume him. It's one of several worm and dragon based metaphors in the novel that are designed to describe internal conflict as well as the mental and emotional aspects of utilizing the Force. As I said, this passage refers to the means in which Palpatine hides his true appearance, with the novel working with the belief that Palpatine hid not only his nature but his actual physical self from all those around him.

Sithisis I part of a collection of non-canon comics. Have you looked at what else is in the Visionaries set?

So again. The comic is a metaphor. It doesn't even have any dialogue. It's just a collection of non-canon images. Moreover, they're non-canon, both to the Disney "canon" and to the Legends continuity.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Also now that I think better. . . You sure that's what you're doing?

FreshestSlice
Ohshitgetsomealoeforthatburn

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