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Okay, so what if instead, Dooku and Grievous held Palpatine captive on the bridge, and Obi-Wan and Anakin faced them there?

Two alternatives:

1. Obi-Wan and Anakin succeed, the war comes to a closer end and eventually Anakin becomes Darth Vader.

2. Dooku and Grievous succeed, the remaining Republic becomes ruptured by the empowered Separatists and the Sith rule successfully without any casualties, with the combined power of droid invasion forces and Imperial clone troopers to hunt down any remaining Jedi.

AHEM

Obi-Wan and Anakin succeed.

Grievous is a muggle so Obi-Wan solos.

What if Dooku and Grievous get droid assistance? Also, Grievous nearly killed Obi-Wan, it's just that at the last minute, his own arsenal was turned against him.

I don't recall Grievous being a legitimate threat to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
What if Dooku and Grievous get droid assistance?

I think that'd probably be too much to handle, a group of magnadroids, plus Grievous would throw too many distractions at the Jedi.

Though it depends on how many. If it was just, say, one or two, the pair may just take them down really fast.

I have no idea who would win, but I see it that way:

Fact 1 - Anakin will start this fight - as in ROTS - as jedi, he wont use his dark emotions. Without a that, isn't Count's equal.
Fact 2 - Dooku probably can take out Kenobi faster, then Anakin can take out Grievous.

Jedi will charge at Dooku and Grievous. Even if Anakin will attack the Count, Dooku still will will be able to attack Kenobi by his force powers while defending himself against Anakin's blows. If Dooku will send Grievous against Anakin, he will eliminate Kenobi even faster. I don't see Anakin being able to take out Grievous in seconds.

After Kenobi's fall, Anakin will use his dark emotions. From this moment, I can see it in two ways:

1) Anakin will use his TK and will crush Grievous in seconds. Dooku will be too startled to react in time. Then Anakin will charges at Count Dooku and will defeat him as he did in ROTS.
2) Anakin will try to overcome Grievous as fast as possible in lighstaber duel, but Dooku will attacks him by the force. Anakin will be overhelmed by two opponents, and finally will fall.

Grevious gets ragdolled, and the fight proceeds as per canon.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Grevious gets ragdolled, and the fight proceeds as per canon.

Uh, no. Lol if you think Dooku'll just sit back and watch his favorite toy get played with by Skywalker or Kenobi.

Team Dooku wins. Why? Because instead of having to waste energy disposing of Kenobi, Dooku can focus on Skywalker first (perhaps sometimes needing to rescue Grievous). As long as Kenobi stays awake, Anakin won't be susceptible to DS influence.

We've seen Anakin fare considerably well against Dooku in TCW, but he always ragdolls Obi. On the other hand, Obi beats Grievous on his own... So, if Dooku is smart enough to pit Grievous against Anakin while he quickly disposes of Obi, he could then team up with Grievous and win this fight. I think Dooku would beat Obi faster than Anakin beats Grievous.

Originally posted by Petrus
We've seen Anakin fare considerably well against Dooku in TCW, but he always ragdolls Obi. On the other hand, Obi beats Grievous on his own... So, if Dooku is smart enough to pit Grievous against Anakin while he quickly disposes of Obi, he could then team up with Grievous and win this fight. I think Dooku would beat Obi faster than Anakin beats Grievous.

Yes we have. But Dooku comes out on top with his superior force powers. And if we want to use TCWs as an example, we've seen Grievous put Kenobi on his ass more than once. To say that Kenobi will just swoop in any day of the week and casually take the General to the curb on his home turf is pushing it.

I'm not saying that, but I think Obi-Wan would indeed defeat Grievous in the end. If we don't use TCW as an example, he stomps Grievous and Anakin stomps Dooku . I'm just saying that Dooku would defeat Obi-Wan faster than he would defeat Grievous.
Unless you're actually saying he won't defeat Grievous in which case I disagree.

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm not saying that, but I think Obi-Wan would indeed defeat Grievous in the end. If we don't use TCW as an example, he stomps Grievous and Anakin stomps Dooku . I'm just saying that Dooku would defeat Obi-Wan faster than he would defeat Grievous.
Unless you're actually saying he won't defeat Grievous in which case I disagree.

Grievous (based on what we've seen) is like a 65/35 in Kenobi's favor at best.
Dooku takes Skywalker at least 75/25 though. And Anakin isn't stomping Dooku. Not with his master right there. Anakin has only been able to give Dooku a challenge when he tapped into his rage. Without that the Count tools him.
With Kenobi there, the likelihood of him doing that is nill. Even Sidious knew that Anakin would never fall to the Dark Side with Kenobi (or Yoda) there.

So LS Anakin loses to Dooku every time imo.

Anakin pretty much always taps into his rage though.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Grievous (based on what we've seen) is like a 65/35 in Kenobi's favor at best.
Dooku takes Skywalker at least 75/25 though. And Anakin isn't stomping Dooku. Not with his master right there. Anakin has only been able to give Dooku a challenge when he tapped into his rage. Without that the Count tools him.
With Kenobi there, the likelihood of him doing that is nill. Even Sidious knew that Anakin would never fall to the Dark Side with Kenobi (or Yoda) there.

So LS Anakin loses to Dooku every time imo.

Yes, he probably is about 65/35 . Not that it's relevant at all if Dooku battles him and not Anakin. I still think that even though Dooku would win most of the time against Anakin, he'll always find it easier to defeat Obi-Wan.

Yup. Dooku can demolish either Kenobi or Skywalker before either of them can down the General. LS Anakin is overrated, he's stated to be on the same level as Kenobi.

I'm not sure he's that overrated. Where is this stated?

It seems more like the common conception here is they are near-equals. Truth is, Anakin has better raw power and his saber skills are marginally better, while Obi-Wan is smarter and has more Force wisdom and a righteous goatee.

Originally posted by Petrus
We've seen Anakin fare considerably well against Dooku in TCW, but he always ragdolls Obi. On the other hand, Obi beats Grievous on his own... So, if Dooku is smart enough to pit Grievous against Anakin while he quickly disposes of Obi, he could then team up with Grievous and win this fight. I think Dooku would beat Obi faster than Anakin beats Grievous.

Pretty much spot on, if this is prime Grevious before the Mace incident. After that fight and this strategy doesn't work, the Grevious of Utapau would get beat faster than Dooku can get rid of ObiWan.

If Dooku can ragdoll Obi-Wan in three seconds again then Separatists win.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
LS Anakin is overrated, he's stated to be on the same level as Kenobi.


Actually it's Anakin and Dooku who are closer to being equals. But I'm happy to give Dooku the edge over him.

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm not sure he's that overrated. Where is this stated?

ROTS commentary states he's a level 8 swordsman unless he taps into the Dark Side. On par with Kenobi.

That's Nick Gilliard stuff. He's not a definitive authority and is simply giving his opinion. This is the same guy who couldn't tell you what Vaapad is without Google.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't recall Grievous being a legitimate threat to Obi-Wan.


Well they've fought several times throughout TCW, and ROTS is the only time Kenobi decisively beat Grievous. Other than that, there were times when Grievous has either ragdolled Kenobi or forced him to flee.

-Ja7rgrRNHU

GG definitely is a legit threat to Kenobi, as seen here where the General pushes him pretty hard.

(also note that GG seems to resist Kenobis TK at 1.06 and 2.10)

Here's a few more.


Rn7o_Cz9rVs

m1BqZzIWSW0

^This last one, skip to about 2:25.

I think Grievous is being underrated in this topic.

I disagree with Palpatine about Anakin being the best fit to take on Grievous.
Anakin may be more powerful than Kenobi, but with his aggressive fighting style, I don't think he would do nearly as well as Kenobi did. This is a case where A > B > C logic doesn't work in my opinion.

I could see Dooku and Grievous taking this more often than not.

Watching the videos now. At ~2:00 in the first video, it appears Grievous cuts through those Magna-guard weapons, which are made of phrik and thus virtually indestructible. Or I'm on crack.

Nope, just rewatched it. He definitely cuts the ends off.

~2:38, Obi-Wan realizes he has Force powers and TK's that dead Magnaguard into Grievous. Derp.

Just finished the first video. Honestly, considering the lack of room and Grievous' obvious higher level of physical strength, Obi-Wan doesn't get pwnt. If anything, once he brings his TK to bear, Grievous runs like hell. Worst case - draw.

Watching the second video now. So far, Grievous' advantage comes from his unorthodox limbage, which is still a valid strength in his favor. ~1:00, Obi-Wan is like LOLNOPE I HAZ TK and Grievous can't do anything about it. Grievous than runs away.

Also, it's blatantly obvious that Grievous has Gadet Magnet Soles. Hacker.

Concluded the fight. Aside from getting some hits in with his Gadget claws, Grievous didn't stomp here either, and ran away like a *****. More environmental chaos to upset the fight (which these series is notorious for), and Grievous yet again escapes.

Watching the third fight. Already, it's not a simple 1 v 1, but Grievous gets bonus points for tanking that explosion. But then the fight is pretty much over. This shouldn't even count for discussion.

These videos give me the following conclusions:

1. Grievous can do some good damage with his bendy straw limbs.

2. He's stronger than previously though.

3. He's afraid of TK and runs like hell.

4. He can't take Obi-Wan in a straight fight.

Neph, at no point does Grievious resist TK. Idk what you're talking about here. 1:06, Grievous is pushed back from a saber slash, and at 2:10, Obi mimes hitting him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
ROTS commentary states he's a level 8 swordsman unless he taps into the Dark Side. On par with Kenobi.


Yeah but he does tap his rage (dark side) regularly in challenging fights. So even by Nick's standards, Anakin is a level 9.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose

These videos give me the following conclusions:

1. Grievous can do some good damage with his bendy straw limbs.

2. He's stronger than previously though.

3. He's afraid of TK and runs like hell.

4. He can't take Obi-Wan in a straight fight.

Neph, at no point does Grievious resist TK. Idk what you're talking about here. 1:06, Grievous is pushed back from a saber slash, and at 2:10, Obi mimes hitting him.



Exactly!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That's Nick Gilliard stuff. He's not a definitive authority and is simply giving his opinion. This is the same guy who couldn't tell you what Vaapad is without Google.

He's pretty up there in authority. Beyond you at the very least.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/level9_zps209071fd.png

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Watching the videos now. At ~2:00 in the first video, it appears Grievous cuts through those Magna-guard weapons, which are made of phrik and thus virtually indestructible. Or I'm on crack.

Nope, just rewatched it. He definitely cuts the ends off.

~2:38, Obi-Wan realizes he has Force powers and TK's that dead Magnaguard into Grievous. Derp.

Just finished the first video. Honestly, considering the lack of room and Grievous' obvious higher level of physical strength, Obi-Wan doesn't get pwnt. If anything, once he brings his TK to bear, Grievous runs like hell. Worst case - draw.

Watching the second video now. So far, Grievous' advantage comes from his unorthodox limbage, which is still a valid strength in his favor. ~1:00, Obi-Wan is like LOLNOPE I HAZ TK and Grievous can't do anything about it. Grievous than runs away.

Also, it's blatantly obvious that Grievous has Gadet Magnet Soles. Hacker.

Concluded the fight. Aside from getting some hits in with his Gadget claws, Grievous didn't stomp here either, and ran away like a *****. More environmental chaos to upset the fight (which these series is notorious for), and Grievous yet again escapes.

Watching the third fight. Already, it's not a simple 1 v 1, but Grievous gets bonus points for tanking that explosion. But then the fight is pretty much over. This shouldn't even count for discussion.

These videos give me the following conclusions:

1. Grievous can do some good damage with his bendy straw limbs.

2. He's stronger than previously though.

3. He's afraid of TK and runs like hell.

4. He can't take Obi-Wan in a straight fight.

Neph, at no point does Grievious resist TK. Idk what you're talking about here. 1:06, Grievous is pushed back from a saber slash, and at 2:10, Obi mimes hitting him.

I never said Grievous stomped him, I said he was a threat to him and pressed him hard, which he did. He seemed the obvious superior in a direct duel with Obi-Wan only managing to pushing him back when he catches him off-guard with TK.

At 1.06 Grievous is pushed back and stumbles back a bit, but then Kenobi pulls his blade towards the magnaguard and Grievous thrusts his chest out. I think Obi was either trying to force pull him or GG was er... unbalanced? Kenobi clearly tries to TK push him at 2.10 though, lol.

Well Kenobi sure seems to catch Kenobi "off-guard" with his Tk many a time. And Grievous flees Every Single Time Kenobi utilizes Tk.

Heck in one of those videos Grievous fails to take Kenobi in an enclosed space(clearly a benefit to Grievous) and with aid from Magnaguards.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/level9_zps209071fd.png

Source? Let me check the ROTS novel. Pretty sure they are stated as equals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said Grievous stomped him, I said he was a threat to him and pressed him hard, which he did. He seemed the obvious superior in a direct duel with Obi-Wan only managing to pushing him back when he catches him off-guard with TK.

At 1.06 Grievous is pushed back and stumbles back a bit, but then Kenobi pulls his blade towards the magnaguard and Grievous thrusts his chest out. I think Obi was either trying to force pull him or GG was er... unbalanced? Kenobi clearly tries to TK push him at 2.10 though, lol.

I am glad TCWs elected to show Grievous as a legit threat and not a total ***** to TK in some ways. It was good to see him defeat Adi Gallia and push Kenobi.

Also I think Grievous seems to have gotten better to when he got tooled by Fisto.

^The Making of Revenge of the Sith, page 130.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
^The Making of Revenge of the Sith, page 130.

Interesting. I retract my statement. That's awesome that Anakin is confirmed as a 9 even when he's not "intehzone"

Yep. Also, Mace was confirmed to be a level 9 also, but the page didn't fit.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yep. Also, Mace was confirmed to be a level 9 also, but the page didn't fit.

A shame they never stated Dooku was. It can be inferred though.

Anyone saying that Dooku wouldn't be a level 9 is ignorant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anyone saying that Dooku wouldn't be a level 9 is ignorant.

You'd be surprised.

A lot of members here are ignorant.

^
Agree with that. And also agree, that Dooku is level 9.

But well, if we are using Gillard's levels as example, then which level are:

Maul (I guess 8)
Opress
Bulq
Jinn
Fisto
?

Maul would be a high 8.

Opress, in technical skill, would be a 7, but is a more effecient fighter than the rest of the Jedi you listed because of his immense strength and raw power.

Bulq would be a low-mid 8.

Jinn would be a high 7.

Fisto would be a low-mid 8.

Is Kenobi high 8 or mid 8?

He would be high 8. Also, Bulq and Fisto would be more of mid-8's than low-8's probably.

And the difference between low 8 and high 8 is smaller then between high 8 and low 9?

No, the opposite probably. Or equal difference depending on where you rank the characters.

I hate these "levels" of lightsaber mastery. Who invented that shit? Stupid.

Nick Gillard, lol.

As far as I know, Gillard is not an actual authority or a canon source:

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That's Nick Gilliard stuff. He's not a definitive authority and is simply giving his opinion. This is the same guy who couldn't tell you what Vaapad is without Google.

His opinion shouldn't count if contradicted, but if it isn't, I don't see why he hasn't got the authority, just like I don't see how Karpyshan doesn't have authority to explain Vitiate's telepathic limits or Luceno not having authority to say that Plagueis would beat Sidious in a fight.

What an idiot. Attempting to define how good a combatant is wielding a lightsaber with levels as if the whole SW universe was a videogame or something. Good thing he doesn't hold canon authority.

He was talking to Lucas about the levels though. He didn't just make them up himself. Although the whole idea of levels was probably Gillard's idea.

Isn't he just the fight choreographer for the PT movies? I don't see why that would give him any canon authority. >:T

It wouldn't surprise me if Lucas agreed with that idea tho.

Saying Nick Gilliard is a valid authority on saber levels by virtue of being a fight choreographer is like saying the small asian who animates Sidious' lightning is a valid authority on Sidious' lightning level or Force power. It's just his opinion and in the end he does whatever GL tells him to do.

Nick Gilliard has also expressedly either disavowed EU forms from Fightsaber etc. or simply remained ignorant to them.

Neph, Grievous has magnetic heels. Even if we assume he is being tugged, (and there's not strong enough evidence to assume Obi would do a weak tug anyways) resisting by virtue of magnetic feet isn't a strong indicator of anything but having... magnetic feet. If Obi fights Grievous on wood floors or a sand arena, that's moot anyways and he can't defend himself by virtue of being a 1337 muggle.

Back to the match, I still reassert that Obi-Wan is too much for Grevous. The general may have gotten some swipes in but when Obi brings Force to bear he just loses it and runs. I imagine even Anakin could defeat him or similarly use TK to chase him off.

Since he choreographs the fights, he needs to know the disparity between the fighters. Still not seeing why they aren't valid.

Um, of course, lol. How did you think I thought he was resisting him? Through the magic of friendship?

Obi-Wan may be superior, but will you at least admit that GG is a legit threat to him?

And since the asian tech stereotype guy needs to determine how bright, large, loud and persistent Sids' lightning is, the same logic applies.

An authotitative figure is GL in this case, since he leans over in his director chair and tells Nick what happens next. Nick's job is just to make it fast, fun and safe.

Nah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, of course, lol. How did you think I thought he was resisting him? Through the magic of friendship?

Obi-Wan may be superior, but will you at least admit that GG is a legit threat to him?

Not until you admit Barriss is a legit threat to the bounty hunter.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Not until you admit Barriss is a legit threat to the bounty hunter.

She isn't really. He's defeated far better Jedi than her.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And since the asian tech stereotype guy needs to determine how bright, large, loud and persistent Sids' lightning is, the same logic applies.
Except the asian guy only determines lightning for one character so he cannot make levels comparisons the characters unlike Gillard who is involved with several characters.

But Nick Gilliard isn't the universal authority on saber fighting any more than Bob Anderson is for the OT. I don't understand why you insist this has validity but let's cover it again:

1. NG has no official capacity as an authority in canon.
2. NG is interpreting GL's vision through fights. Unless GL explicitly says "These levels exist, implement them" or something to that effect, there's no reason to assume his isolated comments reflect G-canon.
3. If they can't conclucisely be G-canon, they are regulated to C-canon, an area in which NG is utterly ignore of already. So numerous other C-canon quotes would either need to corroborate his views or contradict them.
4. The asian dude is the creator of Sids' lightning. If I hold your reason as valid, only the asian tech dude can decide Sids' lightning values, EU be damned.

Neph, Barriss Offee took down Ventress who killed Jedi Masters including premier master uber swordsman Kit Fisto in seconds. Barriss is better than all of them by extention, so I win.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But Nick Gilliard isn't the universal authority on saber fighting any more than Bob Anderson is for the OT.
Difference is Anderson has nothing to do with the OT while Gillard has a a lot to do with the duelists in the movies.

Erm, no. That's not correct. Bob Anderson is the Olympic professional fencer who worked as swordsmaster/Vader double for the OT. He's never given us any power charts but if he did they'd be just his opinion without canon material corroborating them.

NG isn't an LFL official in his capacity; he's the swordsmaster/stunt coordinator LFL hired to choreograph the film's action scenes. If he says "Kit Fisto is a level 9" but this is not shown in film or EU, we would do best to disregard it because of his position within the company and lack of support. These "levels" are nowhere else in the mythos.

Let me use another example: Bob Anderson trained Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn, and said Viggo was the best student of the sword he'd ever trained. Aragorn over everyone else by virtue of this comment? Or is it perhaps a matter of opinion based on his work with the actors and role in the production. Or does Bob make LotR film canon now?

Oh, lol. I thought it was the guy who wrote some of the Ancient Sith comics. Wasn't he called Anderson as well?

Eh, we would see if there's anything contradicting it. In this case, there's nothing that contradicts the idea that Anakin, Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku are on the same level skill-wise with Kenobi one tier down.

I'm pretty sure Gillard has stated that he discussed the levels with Lucas.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She isn't really. He's defeated far better Jedi than her.


And hasn't Kenobi defeated far superior foes to Grievous?

i should clarify, I wasn't against the conclusions necessary, but how they were reached. The classification was too cut and dry and NG is the sole source and creator of the levels, so I consider them his opinion at best.
And yeah, another Anderson was an author. Forget his first name. Kevin J Anderson? Idk.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm pretty sure Gillard has stated that he discussed the levels with Lucas first.

And I'm pretty sure he didn't. Burden of proof, is the whole point. NG was hired to do the same job in the PT as Anderson was in the OT and LotR; no one here would consider unreplicated power levels from Bob as binding in either case. Why apply inconsistency? Because it favors the feeling someone already has?

In the end, it may be the case. But I want those making the assertion that it is valid to prove such. Otherwise, why should I trust in it?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And I'm pretty sure he didn't. Burden of proof, is the whole point.

There's a quote from Gillard that was posted here somewhere (will have to find it) by the great poster Arhael. It was a NG quote where he says he discussed the levels with George.

But there's no quote from Lucas himself on the subject.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm pretty sure Gillard has stated that he discussed the levels with Lucas.




And hasn't Kenobi defeated far superior foes to Grievous?

Considering he has fought on par with Mace Windu there aren't many who qualify as "far superior" to Grievous.

Didn't Grievous only last a few seconds against Mace before getting crushed and fleeing?

Also, noted Darth Power. Lemme know if you find it sometime.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Didn't Grievous only last a few seconds against Mace before getting crushed and fleeing?

Also, noted Darth Power. Lemme know if you find it sometime.

I don't think so. At least not according to Mace.

Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told
him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during
the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told
him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently
analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and
had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said,
"so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he
has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any
style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living
Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."--ROTS novel

Even though Dooku's Makashi makes Obi-Wan look like amateur hour, so why would Grievous' own attempts rattle Mace and fail against Obi? Ah, more inconsistencies. This fight is from Labyrinth of Evil, IIRC, when Grievous still had hype.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even though Dooku's Makashi makes Obi-Wan look like amateur hour, so why would Grievous' own attempts rattle Mace and fail against Obi? Ah, more inconsistencies. This fight is from Labyrinth of Evil, IIRC, when Grievous still had hype.

Fight is also referenced in the same novel/ movie where Grievous' dehyping began.

Grievous has always been a threat to Jedi in Sabers and Close Combat. That never changed. But in an all out the most powerful Jedi can TK Grievous into defeat.

Let's not forget even in the clone war mini series when Grievous's hype was at it's greatest, Mace TK crushed Grievous's chest pretty easily. So yeah I do think Sith Skywalker and even Opress are foes Kenobi has defeated who are considerably more powerful than Grievous in an all out.

Originally posted by Petrus
What an idiot. Attempting to define how good a combatant is wielding a lightsaber with levels as if the whole SW universe was a videogame or something. Good thing he doesn't hold canon authority.

I hate these "levels" of lightsaber mastery. Who invented that shit? Stupid.

I agree that "levels" shouldn't be treated as absolutes (i.e. A is level 8 so he beats B because B is only level 6), but I don't have a problem using them as rough guides.

Let me elaborate. I see the "levels" as being how good the fighter is in pure technical bladework. That is, if he stood in front of a panel of experts and did a demo, the level would indicate how good his technique was.

Of course in actual lightsabre combat, sabre technique is just one of several factors which could tip the balance.

Also, even in a "fair and square arena-type match," a lower level doesn't mean a guaranteed defeat. He could still win, it just means he'd have an uphill battle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Grievous has always been a threat to Jedi in Sabers and Close Combat. That never changed. But in an all out the most powerful Jedi can TK Grievous into defeat.

Let's not forget even in the clone war mini series when Grievous's hype was at it's greatest, Mace TK crushed Grievous's chest pretty easily. So yeah I do think Sith Skywalker and even Opress are foes Kenobi has defeated who are considerably more powerful than Grievous in an all out.

Considering Grievous is not Force sensitive, the effectiveness of TK against him doesn't reveal anything new that we didn't already know, for the same reason why we shouldn't shit bricks that Vader can ragdoll Han Solo and Chewie together, or Sidious could break Boba Fett's neck. Muggles don't have a defense, it's axiomatic.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I agree that "levels" shouldn't be treated as absolutes (i.e. A is level 8 so he beats B because B is only level 6), but I don't have a problem using them as rough guides.

Let me elaborate. I see the "levels" as being how good the fighter is in pure technical bladework. That is, if he stood in front of a panel of experts and did a demo, the level would indicate how good his technique was.

Of course in actual lightsabre combat, sabre technique is just one of several factors which could tip the balance.

Also, even in a "fair and square arena-type match," a lower level doesn't mean a guaranteed defeat. He could still win, it just means he'd have an uphill battle.



As usual, good points made. It's more like Hunger Games ranking or something. Just a number, not a revelation on its own and a mere facet of the other factors in a fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm pretty sure Gillard has stated that he discussed the levels with Lucas.

So do I. As I remember, the main reason for those levels, was that Nick wanted to know, how good are those guys, compare one to another. So it was Nick's idea, but George ranked them.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Interesting. I retract my statement. That's awesome that Anakin is confirmed as a 9 even when he's not "intehzone"

I guess, it's about Zonakin. Or Anakin who is using dark side.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Considering Grievous is not Force sensitive, the effectiveness of TK against him doesn't reveal anything new that we didn't already know, for the same reason why we shouldn't shit bricks that Vader can ragdoll Han Solo and Chewie together, or Sidious could break Boba Fett's neck. Muggles don't have a defense, it's axiomatic.





As usual, good points made. It's more like Hunger Games ranking or something. Just a number, not a revelation on its own and a mere facet of the other factors in a fight.

Thank you very much.

Yes, that's the kind of thing I meant.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And yeah, another Anderson was an author. Forget his first name. Kevin J Anderson? Idk.

That's right. Kevin J. Anderson wrote the "Tales of the Jedi" comics and the Jedi Academy Trilogy. He's a great author who gave us Exar Kun, Vodo-Siosk Baas etc.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Erm, no. That's not correct. Bob Anderson is the Olympic professional fencer who worked as swordsmaster/Vader double for the OT. He's never given us any power charts but if he did they'd be just his opinion without canon material corroborating them.

Bob Anderson was incredible. He also worked on Highlander: The Series.

Anakin>Dooku

Obi-Wan>Grevious

War's over.

Originally posted by Oneness
Anakin>Dooku

Obi-Wan>Grevious

War's over.

Except Anakin is not> Dooku. Out of the several times they've dueled Anakin won...once. It just happens Dooku never once wanted to kill Skywalker.

Dooku has always went for the kill in TCW.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku has always went for the kill in TCW.


When exactly? When he let Anakin escape in TCWs movie? Or when he blasted Anakin away and had him defenseless when he kidnapped Palpatine? Or when he intentionally captured him in exchange for Grievous.

Filoni has said in an interview that Palpatine's plan was to have Anakin fight in TCW to see if he could survive. If he couldn't then he wouldn't be a worthy apprentice. So obviously he would have Dooku go all-out to test him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Filoni has said in an interview that Palpatine's plan was to have Anakin fight in TCW to see if he could survive. If he couldn't then he wouldn't be a worthy apprentice. So obviously he would have Dooku go all-out to test him.

Bullshit. Palpatine saved Anakin's ass. When they dueled in that godawful Episode where Grievous lost to Gungans, Dooku could have killed him.

link

The only time Dooku tried to capture Skywalker without killing him was when Grievous was captured. And that time he required aid from several magnaguards.

In the Clone War movie Dooku clearly goes for the kill when Skywalker is floored.

Concerning the "Crisis on Naboo" fightFiloni said in his end of season 4 Forcecast interview that he doesn't believe that Palpatine would step in to save Skywalkers life. Because ifSkywalker dies then he wasn't good enough for Palpatine.

yep that's what i was referring to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only time Dooku tried to capture Skywalker without killing him was when Grievous was captured. And that time he required aid from several magnaguards.

In the Clone War movie Dooku clearly goes for the kill when Skywalker is floored.

Concerning the "Crisis on Naboo" fightFiloni said in his end of season 4 Forcecast interview that he doesn't believe that Palpatine would step in to save Skywalkers life. Because ifSkywalker dies then he wasn't good enough for Palpatine.

So why didn't Dooku capitalize on Anakin being KO'd by his lightning/TK in "Crisis on Naboo"?

In the Clone War Movie he also lets Skywalker escape.

It's been awhile since I've seen that movie, but, didn't the final Dooku/Anakin fight climax with Dooku running for his life?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
It's been awhile since I've seen that movie, but, didn't the final Dooku/Anakin fight climax with Dooku running for his life?

No it climaxes with Dooku on his ass because he taunted Anakin about Asoka then Anakin running away to save her. But Dooku could have just gone in for the TK.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So why didn't Dooku capitalize on Anakin being KO'd by his lightning/TK in "Crisis on Naboo"?



Because he wasn't KO'd. Just floored and a bit dazed with his Lightsaber off. But also shot pretty far away. By the time Dooku made it to Skywalker he could easily have been back up again. In TCW Movie, Skywalker was floored and disarmed by Dooku, then Dooku went for the kill, but Skywalker still got to his Lightsaber and defended himself in time, despite Dooku being much closer in that fight. Also in "Crisis on Naboo" Dooku was under the pretense that he's trying to escape with Palpatine as his hostage.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dooku has had the edge against Skywalker in all their Clone War fights due to his superior force powers. But it is just an edge. Anakin and Dooku have been portrayed as near equals throughout TCW.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except Anakin is not> Dooku. Out of the several times they've dueled Anakin won...once.

And by that one point, after season 6 of TCW, by Dark Horse's Brothers and Arms and Obsession; Anakin's Force power level had doubled. Writers stated Anakin was on a higher level, like 7 I think, as a Jedi than Obi-wan. As per Anakin and Obi-wan's battle of heroes in ROTS and the stalemate Force push, Obi-wan was obviously being amped by the Will of the Force - or there was an explosion of Force pushes like the explosion between Yoda's Force repel and Sidious' Force lightning. Either way, that entire fight Obi-wan lived because he able to flee and Anakin could not trap him in one spot like he did Dooku, Obi-wan kept slipping away - it was very reminiscent of TFU II and how Starkiller II couldn't break Vader's defense despite his superior Force power level. Vader repeatedly broke Obi-wan's defenses, later on in that fight Vader broke them more frequently, constantly getting successful hits on Obi-wan before the latter ran away again. Until Vader made the leap that left him wide open and unable to defend himself. As a cyborg he would not have made that same mistake.



Yes he did, it was either Anakin died or Dooku did, Palpatine was trying to see if Anakin would be a more suitable apprentice, like Vader vs Luke in RoTS - except Palpatine never said Luke was powerful in retrospect, he claimed Luke's Force rage him powerful but he was clearly beating Vader before that, whereas Palpatine claimed that Anakin was more powerful in the Force than Dooku bar none.

RoTJ Luke>Vader>Obi-wan, Courtship of Princess Leia went down not too long after that fight with Vader; in that novel Luke literally hovers safely to the ground, along with his X-Wing after it got shot down by a Tie Fighter - that is a TK feat I doubt Obi-wan could replicate. Remember that by RoTJ Luke is 23, Anakin is also 23 as of RoTS. Luke's been trained well enough to hold his own against Vader, and to construct his own lightsaber. In both Marvel's Star Wars and in the new Dark Horse's Star Wars comic series (Between ANH and RoTJ) Luke demonstrates he learned as much as he could from Obi-wan and his journals, even in the Empire and Rebellion novels Luke demonstrates that his powers progress super-fast. It is safe to say that Luke was on par with Vader by RoTJ, as much so as Starkiller was in TFU - and that Luke's Jedi training from Yoda himself is reminiscent, albeit somewhat less complete, to Starkiller's training under Vader.

I have this theory that Anakin will reach that double-season 5 power level by season 6 when he faces Maul. If he does. Maybe Sidious will use Maul to test Anakin to see where he ranks next to Dooku, a prelude to the battle on the Invisible Hand.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because he wasn't KO'd. Just floored and a bit dazed with his Lightsaber off. But also shot pretty far away. By the time Dooku made it to Skywalker he could easily have been back up again. In TCW Movie, Skywalker was floored and disarmed by Dooku, then Dooku went for the kill, but Skywalker still got to his Lightsaber and defended himself in time, despite Dooku being much closer in that fight. Also in "Crisis on Naboo" Dooku was under the pretense that he's trying to escape with Palpatine as his hostage.

But the point is Dooku could have ragdolled him. The thing is that, every time they've dueled it was under the pretext that Skywalker was not the primary objective. If Palpatine ever gave Dooku the order to kill him it'd be game over.



Near equals in lightsaber combat? Sure, although Dooku taking both Kenobi and Skywalker on the Invisible Hand then seems even more impressive. Force wise though the Count is on a different level.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Force wise though the Count is on a different level.
Except Anakin's feat of tipping a 40 meter long battlestation is a better telekinetic feat than anything Dooku has shown.

In an exaggerated comic.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Except Anakin's feat of tipping a 40 meter long battlestation is a better telekinetic feat than anything Dooku has shown.

Yeah, no.
"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.

LOL @ these being equally good as Anakin's feats.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
LOL @ these being equally good as Anakin's feats.

Uh yes it is. Anakin's feat takes place right after AOTCs, where Dooku ****s his shit up.

Dark Rendezvous takes place right before ROTS. End of TCWs Ventress would murk AOTC Skywalker in force or lightsaber combat (she's force choked him before even later).

And ROTS Kenobi is superior to AOTC Anakin. I think even rage stupid Anakin in ROTS is far superior to his earlier incarnations sans late Clone Wars and early ROTS.

Dooku demolished these three with contemptible ease. Galen Marek has superior TK feats to Sidious, but we all know the Dark Lord would rag doll him.

Defeating powerful force users with TK> TKing inanimate objects.

Especially when said force users are defeated with gestures such as finger raisings and wrist flicks.

Except said Force users are jokes in comparison to Anakin.

lol

you're a fat and english prick, don't talk. >:=(

Originally posted by Intrepid37
fat

lol

Me
prick

Originally posted by Oneness
Anakin>Dooku

Obi-Wan>Grevious

War's over.

Battles don't work like that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


Least I got one, boy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Except said Force users are jokes in comparison to Anakin.

Really? Because last I checked Ventress was able to fight off Anakin even with Kenobi's help and put him in a force choke. And Kenobi was able to match his TK. Hardly "jokes" in comparison to Anakin. Battle TK feats will always be> I can TK something bigger than you.

Unless you want Galen Marek to be the single most powerful being in the mythos. Which is bull, he's not that far above Vader.

Sure.

So Galen Marek is more powerful than Anakin, Yoda, Mace, and pretty much the entire cast?

Given that he was utterly destroyed by Sidious, I'd say he wouldn't be more powerful than Yoda.

Anakin and Mace, yeah, probably.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Given that he was utterly destroyed by Sidious, I'd say he wouldn't be more powerful than Yoda.

Anakin and Mace, yeah, probably.

But he has better TK feats.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Given that he was utterly destroyed by Sidious, I'd say he wouldn't be more powerful than Yoda.

Did you even read the book? Sidious was hauling in pain until Marek chose to sacrifice himself to save rebels from storm troopers and Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael
Did you even read the book? Sidious was hauling in pain until Marek chose to sacrifice himself to save rebels from storm troopers and Vader.

The game designers had a completely different interpretation.
MNIU-9X5Eso

2:52

I think this is a pretty accurate depiction of a "what would happen" if Marek tried to defeat Sidious right then and there.

I know that.

But if we choose to follow game instead of book, it means that Marek beat and overpowered Sidious with TK fair and square.

Originally posted by Arhael
I know that.

But if we choose to follow game instead of book, it means that Marek beat and overpowered Sidious with TK fair and square.

Except that scene above makes it even more obvious that Sidious was faking the whole time. Thus the whole.

"He's more powerful than you know and he deserves to die for what he did to me."

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except that scene above makes it even more obvious that Sidious was faking the whole time. Thus the whole.

"He's more powerful than you know and he deserves to die for what he did to me."
Or it only means that Marek is not as good as Yoda at tanking explosions. Sidious wasn't overpowering him until explosion came.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
But the point is Dooku could have ragdolled him. The thing is that, every time they've dueled it was under the pretext that Skywalker was not the primary objective. If Palpatine ever gave Dooku the order to kill him it'd be game over.


Where are you getting this from? Dooku has consistently used his Force Powers on Skywalker. He's even attempted to kill him after flooring him with the Force in TCW Movie. Yet he failed.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Near equals in lightsaber combat? Sure, although Dooku taking both Kenobi and Skywalker on the Invisible Hand then seems even more impressive. Force wise though the Count is on a different level.


Nah they're near equals in an all out.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The game designers had a completely different interpretation.



It has to directly contradict the book for the book's decription to be non-canon. Sacrificing himself by putting his force defenses down is not something we see, but something that's explained in the novel from Starkiller's POV.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The game designers had a completely different interpretation.
MNIU-9X5Eso

2:52

I think this is a pretty accurate depiction of a "what would happen" if Marek tried to defeat Sidious right then and there.

The game interpretation is non-canon. The novel is the canon version.

If the game was canon then we'd have to consider health bars and save points to be canon. Or the fact that Jedi/Sith get slashed with lightsabres and all it does in reduce their health bars as opposed to cutting them in half.

Or the fact that in the game Galen can die multiple times only to come to life again at his last save point. Should we consider that canon?

To put it another way, a game is meant to be an experience for a player to enjoy. This compromises its effectiveness as a story. A novel is an actual story. That is why it makes more sense for the novel to be the canon version.

That being said, I agree that Galen could not have defeated Palpatine in a straight-up fight. However I don't think it's unfeasible that he could have some degree of success which is what the novel shows i.e. pushing his lightning back and grappling with him so that he gets zapped by his own power just enough to hurt a bit.

Again, Galen can hurt him a little under certain circumstances, but not come anywhere close to defeating him.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The game interpretation is non-canon. The novel is the canon version.

Proof?

Citing game mechanics doesn't count.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof?

Citing game mechanics doesn't count.

Right here:

Originally posted by me
If the game was canon then we'd have to consider health bars and save points to be canon. Or the fact that Jedi/Sith get slashed with lightsabres and all it does in reduce their health bars as opposed to cutting them in half.

Or the fact that in the game Galen can die multiple times only to come to life again at his last save point. Should we consider that canon?

Sorry but we can't just ignore game mechanics just because they're inconvienient. They're an intrinsic part of the game. We can't just ignore the bits we don't like. If we could then we would consider Jar-Jar Binks to be non-canon (yes I know, bashing Jar-Jar got old long ago, sorry, but it's the clearest example I could think of.)

However the real proof is here:

Originally posted by me
To put it another way, a game is meant to be an experience for a player to enjoy. This compromises its effectiveness as a story. A novel is an actual story. That is why it makes more sense for the novel to be the canon version.

To reiterate, a novel works better as a storytelling medium than a game. Ergo the novel is what should be treated as canon. It's just more logical.

Things like health bars aren't canon, but the story and cutscenes are.

Novels aren't superior storytelling vehicles than games, just different. In this case the game is the original source and primary medium for the story to take place in. I'd put my chips on that over the novel.

Neph is right; you're confusing game content for game mechanics here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where are you getting this from? Dooku has consistently used his Force Powers on Skywalker. He's even attempted to kill him after flooring him with the Force in TCW Movie. Yet he failed.

Uhh Dooku force choked and electrocuted him in Crisis on Naboo. He could have ended it there.







Nah. Dooku has shown the ability to rag doll Anakin.





Game is the primary source. The comic and the novel are supplementary.

Why is this even getting discussed?

a) Anakin kicks Dooku who ends on the ground.
b) Dooku has the advantage because og Magnaguards.
c) Anakin disarms Dooku and chokes him but gets electrocuted.
d) Dooku loses his head.

Really, there is little disparity between the two. Anakin is the more powerful telekinetic (not more efficient, as he lacks Dooku's mastery), has a few physical edges and has a vast amount of Force reserves which allows him to keep going.

On the distinction between game and book, I'd actually argue that in some ways the story told by the Starkiller game is superior to the one in the book. I played parts of the game after reading the book, and it was amazing how much the book read like a really articulate description of what was on screen. There wasn't much of Stover's metaphysical poetry, there wasn't too much introspection that was absent in the game, and the fights followed the cutscenes (iirc) faithfully. From a purely narrative view, the game seems to come before the novel.

Moreover, the game offers a level of immersion superior to the novel in the form of many different opportunities to project motivations and nuance onto Starkiller's actions that were otherwise absent. For example, I much preferred to lift and then shock troopers because their fear served as a single grain of suffering to balance out the weighty list of harm done by the empire. Starkiller was an impassioned retributivist until the death of his mentor, at which point the Force showed him that hate leads only to more suffering.


Of course, this does not change my estimation of his capabilities; I know exactly how successful he was when fighting walkers and rancors; the scripted events are the unifying or consistent thread across all iterations of Starkiller. Metaphysically there is only one canon Starkiller, which we see through the foggy window of media. The cutscenes are a refinement of the shared characteristics that comprise Starkiller the being in itself. The gameplay is the subjective experience of Starkiller-ness which we are limited to by our limited knowledge of the universe. By contrast, the book is a mere list of the things which are confirmed to be Starkiller-characteristics. We discard nuance and subtlety in pursuit of some flat objectivity which would otherwise have been immediately obvious. Visual data is much easier to interpret than literature, anyway.

Originally posted by Arhael
Did you even read the book? Sidious was hauling in pain until Marek chose to sacrifice himself to save rebels from storm troopers and Vader.
Given that...

a) It was from Marek's point of view

b) Sidious was toying with Marek

c) Marek had never felt such energy (he compared his own powers like ''toys'' in comparison to the enegy unleashed by Sidious)

I'm not sure if you read the book.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhh Dooku force choked and electrocuted him in Crisis on Naboo. He could have ended it there.

That wasn't "Crisis on Naboo". That was "Shadow Warrior," the only time he was told to take him alive, and required the aid of several magnaguards to do so.







Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah. Dooku has shown the ability to rag doll Anakin.

Only in TCW movie, and even with the ragdolling he still couldn't kill Skywalker. In "Crisis on Naboo" Skywalker was pretty much tanking all of Dooku's TK Attacks. The only attack that floored Skywalker was a rare opportunity for a full TK+FL Combo. And even that after Dooku was already floored and Dooku was actually the one being choked.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Given that...

a) Ye, very convenient. This excuse gives you power to tell entirely different story assuming that Marek's views are lies, when suits you.

b) "The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain."

Good luck proving that he is toying and denying the resemblance to final contest between Sidious and Yoda.

c) God damn it, I already told you to reread the book, at least that fight.

Indeed he never felt anything like this:
"The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor."

But he never compared his own power to Sidious's "like toys". He compared his own last experience to previous his own last experiences with the dark side:
""No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child."

Originally posted by Arhael
a) Ye, very convenient. This excuse gives you power to tell entirely different story assuming that Marek's views are lies, when suits you.
No one said Marek was lying, only that his judgement is fallible.

Originally posted by Arhael
b) "The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain."




Originally posted by Arhael
Good luck proving that he is toying and denying the resemblance to final contest between Sidious and Yoda.
I don't understand this.


Originally posted by Arhael
c) God damn it, I already told you to reread the book, at least that fight.
Point still stands. Marek was rewarded with strength that made his previous effort look like toys yet died while Sidious was unharmed.

Intrepid, in the novel Marek put his force defenses down in the last moment against Sidious.

There's nothing in the game that makes that part non-canon.

??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Intrepid, in the novel Marek put his force defenses down in the last moment against Sidious.

There's nothing in the game that makes that part non-canon. No he doesn't, he opens himself to the light side, causing Sidious' lighting to explode like it did in his battle with Yoda.

Sidious presumably puts up a shield, because the explosion kills Starkiller and leaves the Emperor unscathed.

I don't have the novel on me, but it was specifically noted that Starkiller put his defenses down before the explosion. So that has to be factored into him dying while Sidious was still standing.

Nah it shouldn't. He sacrificed himself, yes, but had more power than ever before yet got destroyed.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhh Dooku force choked and electrocuted him in Crisis on Naboo. He could have ended it there.

No, Anakin pummels Dooku and Force chokes him to Sidious' delight, Dooku gets upset and Force lightnings him and runs away.

Afterward (IIRC) Anakin gets up and pursues Dooku and Palpatine.



Even in AoTC, as a Padawan, Anakin puts up a better fight than Obi-wan, effectively winding Dooku.

All through TCW Dooku never gets the upper-hand. After their last encounter in TCW - I'd say by the Brothers and Arms comic story arc - Anakin's powers had doubled.

The Invisible is not a good demonstration of Anakin and Obi-wan's full abilities when they are Force handled at a critical moment - because Obi-wan was separated and got back to Dooku through two Super Battle droids, by the time he was up there Dooku seized an opportunity.

Afterward, Anakin gets the upper-hand rather easily - quicker than Yoda in AoTC.

Yoda is still quite a bit more powerful than Dooku and Anakin by this point, seeing as how an amped Dooku on Vjun was forced to retreat from the Jedi Master yet again - Yoda usually won the sparring matches with both Jedi Dooku and Mace Windu - but beyond sabers was Yoda's Force power level, demonstrated to marginally exceed Dooku's in AoTC.

But Anakin was getting damn near close by ROTS, despite not having access to higher Jedi teaching, they exclusively restricted Anakin access or the title of Master because of his power level - which I think Obsession shows off when he Force waves Durge.

Then as Vader throughout the post-PT novels and games, he fully masters a lot of techniques, and puts the power level to good use - charging lightsaber crystals to blind opponents, using strong Force shields, Force gripping fricken TIE Fighters, nestling his saber in TK and using Force repulse (he taught Starkiller all those crazy Force techniques btw), he's demonstrably above Stakiller in Force power level and damn near Yoda and the Emperor. Starkiller winded him in TFU, and in TFU II he fared much better by designing Starkiller II's lightsaber form to have weaknesses only he knew about - so I'd say even Starkiller II was the lesser in power level, as was RoTJ Luke.

There's a reason the Emperor kept Anakin alive and kept Vader around long after he'd lost the will to grow in power level. There's also a reason why the Emperor designed the suit with an outside respirator susceptible to Force lightning and such, he was afraid of his apprentice's power, and rightfully so.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't have the novel on me, but it was specifically noted that Starkiller put his defenses down before the explosion. So that has to be factored into him dying while Sidious was still standing. You're right, just reread it.

But it does note he's no match for the Emperor's power.

Why are we arguing about Starkiller, btw?

Originally posted by Oneness


But it does note he's no match for the Emperor's power.




Doesn't note that in the novel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't note that in the novel.

It clearly says that, and it's post-humusly so it's not Starkiller's POV.

Again, why is the relationship between the Emperor and Starkiller's power level relevant here?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't note that in the novel.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia does, however.

Because Intrepid thinks that because CWs Anakin managed to move a 40m battle platform he's has better TK than Dooku. The same Dooku who has manhandled people Skywalker's had trouble with with the force.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
people Skywalker's had trouble with with the force.
Where?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Where?

When Ventress bombarded him with shit and gave him trouble on Yavin 4? Or when Ventress force choked him on her flagship? Or when Kenobi matched his force push on Mustafar?


Woah woah woah just found this, is this canon? And what was the outcome?
http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091208031628/starwars/images/0/0c/SkywalkerVsVentressDooku.JPG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0nA7CnHPQA

Found it!

Holy shit 6:33 Skywalker force pushes Dooku and puts him on his ass.

Ahhh nevermind its n-canon it got ovewritten by the Clone Wars episodes.

The Force push exploded, like the explosion of Yoda's Repel and Sidious' Lightning in that same film.

Anakin was unquestionably far more powerful than Obi-wan. Why did he lose? He left himself open when he made the leap and could not defend himself, a mistake he would not make as a Sith Lord later on.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ahhh nevermind its n-canon it got ovewritten by the Clone Wars episodes.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Force push exploded, like the explosion of Yoda's Repel and Sidious' Lightning in that same film.

Anakin was unquestionably far more powerful than Obi-wan. Why did he lose? He left himself open when he made the leap and could not defend himself, a mistake he would not make as a Sith Lord later on.



I am in no way arguing that Anakin>Kenobi. I will argue that AOTC Anakin is stronger than ROTS Kenobi.

IF he's discussing something with Lucas and has discussed it with him in the past and Lucas didn't make him change the idea of levles.. than Lucas himself is signing off on the idea.. thus he IS an authority on their levels even as stupid as the ranking are.