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1. 3 of these guys on the left and right.
2. Juhani
3. Jolee Bindo
4. Darth Bandon
5. Bastila Shan
6. Darth Malak

15 minutes rest after each fight. Takes place on the Geonosis arena.

Bandon is in that first match. Luke dies then.

Not sure. I see him falling at 4, 5 or 6. Guys like Jolee and Juhani are never really displayed as exemplar Jedi so I can see Luke defeating them.

Lol easily clears.

Juhani is a bit of a padawan, but Jolee is a wise old Jedi and survived in the wilderness on Kashykk. He shouldn't be underestimated.

And again, the three Sith in the initial picture would probably undo him since he hasn't displayed the technique and skill to overcome that many Force using opponents.

Stops at Malak imo, unless Malak starts talking about his sister.

Quite possibly clears.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Bandon is in that first match. Luke dies then.

No, if you read it carefully he's only reffering to the guys that are with Bandon.

Man, the Luke love around here is strong. Did anyone rewatch RotJ recently? I'm curious to know what makes him stronger than people who actually have Force training and practical experience. Hell, people like Kit Fisto and AotC Ani/Obi should be able to dominate Luke. What is it that people think he has, or is this a "he beat Vader and he has 2345% of Sidious potential, so he wins" argument all over again?

http://i.imgur.com/v86Z2.gif

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6297420288/h19BCFA96/

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, if you read it carefully he's only reffering to the guys that are with Bandon.

Bandon is present though. Therefore, he wins.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Man, the Luke love around here is strong. Did anyone rewatch RotJ recently? I'm curious to know what makes him stronger than people who actually have Force training and practical experience. Hell, people like Kit Fisto and AotC Ani/Obi should be able to dominate Luke. What is it that people think he has, or is this a "he beat Vader and he has 2345% of Sidious potential, so he wins" argument all over again?

http://i.imgur.com/v86Z2.gif

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6297420288/h19BCFA96/

Loses to bastilla. I don't see why he would lose to bandon based on kotor.... does TOR reveal any more information about bandon that would actually make him a competent combatant.

No. But Bandon was number 2 of the Sith at the time so that's pretty good. Plus, Luke doesn't have much rest between rounds so I could see him loosing due to exhaustion.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Man, the Luke love around here is strong. Did anyone rewatch RotJ recently? I'm curious to know what makes him stronger than people who actually have Force training and practical experience. Hell, people like Kit Fisto and AotC Ani/Obi should be able to dominate Luke. What is it that people think he has, or is this a "he beat Vader and he has 2345% of Sidious potential, so he wins" argument all over again?

Even before he raged out, he does better against Vader than many fully-trained and experienced masters.

Originally posted by Q99
Even before he raged out, he does better against Vader than many fully-trained and experienced masters.

Vader was totally holding back though. No Force powers used, very little offense compared to ESB. Again, I asked people what happened in 2 years that made Luke so much better. His showings are not up to par, and his level of technique and knowledge is woefully inadequate at this stage.

I love it when video-game characters are used. We get to make all kindz of speculations. All kindz...


Realistically, he dies at one. Luke showed no great prowess with a lightsaber in either the movie or novel. He was good, sure, but nothing remarkable. He also showed effectively zero skill in Force abilities. One Drain, Lightning, Stasis field, Choke, etc., and he's out.

But for the sake of f*cking canon (because realistically, movie/novel Vader and Palpatine would lose here too)... he dies at Jolee. Old man's too tough and experienced.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vader was totally holding back though. No Force powers used, very little offense compared to ESB. Again, I asked people what happened in 2 years that made Luke so much better. His showings are not up to par, and his level of technique and knowledge is woefully inadequate at this stage.

Intend self-training and reflecting on his duel with Vader. I've heard Luke compared to Marvel's taskmaster, what with how fast he picked things up from a little experience.

As Vader said, his skills were complete. If he had not gained significantly in skill, raging out would not have been enough to push Vader.

Yeah, it is said that his learning rate is extraordinary, or something like that.

Is that why DE Sidious beat his ass, who is perhaps 20-30 % better, and why Exar Kun's spirit used him as a whipping boy?

Because he's just so good at learning by self reflection?

He did beat DE Sidious in a duel.

Kun... I guess you could write it off as him being unused to facing spirits, though another factor would be 'early EU by a writer who loved some spirits.' And Kun was a spirit empowered by the sacrifice of thousands of lives when he died, so it might have been stronger than living Kun even,

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Bandon is present though. Therefore, he wins.

The first fight refers to the Sith weaklings pictured to the left and right only. So completely disregard Bandon.

When he faces Bandon, it's just Bandon.

Originally posted by Q99
He did beat DE Sidious in a duel.

Kun... I guess you could write it off as him being unused to facing spirits, though another factor would be 'early EU by a writer who loved some spirits.' And Kun was a spirit empowered by the sacrifice of thousands of lives when he died, so it might have been stronger than living Kun even,

1. DE Sidious stomped Luke initially. Granted, there's some time difference here but I'm looking at Luke anywhere near RotJ. About the only thing I can recall he djd before fighting Vader again was go against the Black Sun, which is not composed of great saber duelists who use the Force.

2. Kun's spirit is explicitly stronger and requires life energy and the confines of the temple to manifest at all. It admits that using abilities is a strain when it ragdolls Horn and KOs Luke. But that's besides the point. This isn't someone with even JA Luke experience levels or NJO, it's RotJ Luke, who can't dodge a rancor, who got shot at Jabba's barge, who pretty much is worse at blaster bolt deflection and taking out enemies than AotC Anakin or his later apprentice Ashoka.

What has Luke does between ESB and ROTJ that warrant's mentioning?

Luke is so inconsistent in combats it's disgusting. I see what you're saying SMoose, but my guess is that Luke trained a lot on his own between ESB and RotJ. Even though he's not portrayed as a very impressive duelist in neither of those, it is indeed said his learning rate is extraordinary.
I agree that it's ridiculous he could even defeat Vader in RotJ doe. Lucas decided to turn Luke into a full-fledged 'Jedi Master' from being a farmboy who had no idea how to fight or what a lightsaber was in just a few years.

Except it's apparent everywhere but the ancient novelization which injects all kinds of "didn't happen" stuff that Vader as holding back, so his "victory" is largely unindicative of his skill level. And training by yourself is unquantified improvement as well, since the average Jedi Knight has 10,000 hours of lightsaber training. That's a little over a year straight of practice. Are you arguing that Luke surpassed this base level proficiency in two years alone? It makes zero sense.

Here's what I'd like to see:

1. Supporting commentary from the RotJ dvd. I don't have a copy at this time.

2. Some EU feat or proof of improvement during that two year gap which conclusively shows Luke as better than say, a proficiency Jedi Knight from the Great Sith Wars (Jolee) or Random Jedi from the PT era for that matter.

To be honest, Luke's account in Fightsaber is indeed impressive.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/ROTJLuke_zpsd58f328f.png

15 min edit limit smh.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Lukeinstantaneouslearningability_zpsf2c6eb6f.png

What's the second clip from? Also, the canon status of Fightsaber I can't readily determine, but without express links to GL it falls into C-canon.

Both are from Fightsaber.

The mention of Form V, which didn't exist back then, strikes me as someone creating a C-canon explanation in any case. I'd rather see GL weigh in on this. I doubt he would keep his mouth shut during the scene. If I wasn't on mobile I'd youtube to see if a clip is available.

I don't see the problem. Insider issues are C-Canon which is useable.

And thus inferior to G-canon. Here's what I'm seeing:

1. Luke is really good cuz he learns fast (even though so does Anakin, so does Revan, so does Exar Kun, etc.)

2. Luke is really good cuz he studied Obi-Wan's works during a two year hiatus without training against a living Force using opponent.

3. Luke is really good cuz C-canon sources embellish RotJ and retroactively inject context and interpretation while nothing official from GL has been brought to the table to confirm it.

Again, the -average- Jedi has 10k hours of saber training against living opponents. Luke couldn't have done this, so the idea that he has this mutant learning capability appears to be a new fiction again brought on by two sources: the novelization which has issues of injecting stuff not seen on film (Luke briefly reflecting lightning) and a Fightsaber article as old as AotC. Neither is convincing.

B-b-b-but... my fanooooon!!!

You can still do your Qui-Gon/Chewie slash-fic, Neph. No need to be troubled.

Fool! I ONLY ship Nox and Treek. OTP 4 LYF!

http://cdn.segmentnext.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Treek.jpg

http://www.xbox360iso.com/images/smilies/DatAss%20Emoticon.png

He learns fast *by those standards*. His skill increased much quicker than Anakin's.




The thing is, whatever the reason? He has a demonstrated really, really impressive fight with Vader the Jedi killer, known for beating multiple masters at once.

And there's no indication I've seen that Vader let Luke chop his hand off or anything.

Even if he's holding back that doesn't mean he's going to let Luke kick him down the stairs..

Okay, so then you're saying the Vader fight is a valid showing of skill.

At what point during this gauntlet does the opposition insult his sister and make him reach that level of rage?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. DE Sidious stomped Luke initially.

At that point Luke had at least one foot in the dark side and his mind and spirit were clouded by it so he wasn't at his best.

In the rematch, when he was at his best due to his mind and spirit being clear, he beat Palpatine.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What has Luke does between ESB and ROTJ that warrant's mentioning?

Some EU feat or proof of improvement during that two year gap which conclusively shows Luke as better than say, a proficiency Jedi Knight from the Great Sith Wars (Jolee) or Random Jedi from the PT era for that matter.


In "Shadows of the Empire" he beat Guri, a human replica droid that possessed superhuman speed and strength, in a fist fight. She was strong enough to effortlessly break metal shackles and could have easily overpowered Chewbacca had she needed to.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Man, the Luke love around here is strong. Did anyone rewatch RotJ recently?

I did. If we went purely by the movies, Luke is a far better fighter than almost anyone in the PT. No spinning around, no twirling his lightsabre like a baton, no passing it from hand to hand like a moron; just good, solid sabre fighting.

Let's be honest here. The duels in the OT were way better than those in the PT for the reasons I just described.

I did. If we went purely by the movies, Luke is a far better fighter than almost anyone in the PT. No spinning around, no twirling his lightsabre like a baton, no passing it from hand to hand like a moron; just good, solid sabre fighting.

Let's be honest here. The duels in the OT were way better than those in the PT for the reasons I just described.

No.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I did. If we went purely by the movies, Luke is a far better fighter than almost anyone in the PT. No spinning around, no twirling his lightsabre like a baton, no passing it from hand to hand like a moron; just good, solid sabre fighting.

Let's be honest here. The duels in the OT were way better than those in the PT for the reasons I just described.



Aside from the ANH duel, I agree.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
At that point Luke had at least one foot in the dark side and his mind and spirit were clouded by it so he wasn't at his best.

In the rematch, when he was at his best due to his mind and spirit being clear, he beat Palpatine.

Good to know.



I actually knew this at one point but it's been since like '05 when I read it. Kudos for pulling the example. I retract my statement.



Actually, if I went solely by technique, Dooku would be top tier, followed by Maul. In both cases, the individuals are played by professional fighters and it shows, for the same reason why Jet Lit would make a more convincing Jedi than Clive Owen.

Obi/Ani would actually be right below them. While they did some pretty stupid stuff, compared to the others, they're gods.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Good to know.



I actually knew this at one point but it's been since like '05 when I read it. Kudos for pulling the example. I retract my statement.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, if I went solely by technique, Dooku would be top tier, followed by Maul. In both cases, the individuals are played by professional fighters and it shows, for the same reason why Jet Lit would make a more convincing Jedi than Clive Owen.

Indeed, that's why I said "almost anyone." Maul and Dooku were awesome for the reasons you mention.

It's a pity Ray Park's Iron Fist movie never emerged. It would have been amazing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Obi/Ani would actually be right below them. While they did some pretty stupid stuff, compared to the others, they're gods.

I have to admit Kenobi and Anakin do have genuinely impressive moments.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except it's apparent everywhere but the ancient novelization which injects all kinds of "didn't happen" stuff that Vader as holding back, so his "victory" is largely unindicative of his skill level. And training by yourself is unquantified improvement as well, since the average Jedi Knight has 10,000 hours of lightsaber training. That's a little over a year straight of practice. Are you arguing that Luke surpassed this base level proficiency in two years alone? It makes zero sense.

Here's what I'd like to see:

1. Supporting commentary from the RotJ dvd. I don't have a copy at this time.

2. Some EU feat or proof of improvement during that two year gap which conclusively shows Luke as better than say, a proficiency Jedi Knight from the Great Sith Wars (Jolee) or Random Jedi from the PT era for that matter.

I agree that it makes zero sense, I'm just pointing out that his learning rate was extraordinaire. By no means do I think he was capable of defeating Vader out of pure skill by RotJ.
I also agree that training by yourself isn't really the way to go, but maybe because he's Luke Skywalker this helped him more than it would help other Jedi.

Originally posted by chilled monkey


I did. If we went purely by the movies, Luke is a far better fighter than almost anyone in the PT. No spinning around, no twirling his lightsabre like a baton, no passing it from hand to hand like a moron; just good, solid sabre fighting.

Let's be honest here. The duels in the OT were way better than those in the PT for the reasons I just described.


Originally posted by Based
No.


It depends on if one's talking visually better, or better in a real fight.

A lot of the flash in the PT really is useless in real combat.

The PT character with the best fighting style was Dooku, because the actor's fencing experience was taken into account (Maul, while played by a professional fighter, was playing by a professional fighter focusing on flash rather than being based on his normal style).





Even that is underrated- it was slow, but they kept their swords between each other the entire time and didn't make foolish moves.

Originally posted by Q99
It depends on if one's talking visually better, or better in a real fight.

A lot of the flash in the PT really is useless in real combat.

The PT character with the best fighting style was Dooku, because the actor's fencing experience was taken into account (Maul, while played by a professional fighter, was playing by a professional fighter focusing on flash rather than being based on his normal style).





Even that is underrated- it was slow, but they kept their swords between each other the entire time and didn't make foolish moves.

Well said. Thank you very much.