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The two fight on mars in a arena

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2325/darkxmen003015.jpg
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3186/darkxmen003016.jpg

srug

Technically, Nate has the ability to fight just as fast as(if not faster than) Zoom:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154138_Dark_X-Men_03_0014.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154139_Dark_X-Men_03_0015.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154140_Dark_X-Men_03_0016.jpg
"The combat takes place out of time, in the 'Planck Length' between moments."

Tack that onto him wielding some of the most formidable mind-phuckery abilities in Marvel, and I'm curious how this isn't a one-sided stomp in his favor?




Bran ninjas yet again!

Originally posted by Galan007
Technically, Nate has the ability to fight just as fast as(if not faster than) Zoom:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154138_Dark_X-Men_03_0014.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154139_Dark_X-Men_03_0015.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154140_Dark_X-Men_03_0016.jpg
"The combat takes place out of time, in the 'Planck Length' between moments."

Tack that onto him wielding some of the most formidable mind-phuckery abilities in Marvel, and I'm curious how this isn't a one-sided stomp in his favor?




Bran ninjas yet again!

well, the mindphuckery could work, but not sure how he would ever get a chance to use it. i had this debate some time ago, and here is how the discussion ended:

Originally posted by leonidas
sigh.....

using the term 'plank unit' like it's a measure of speed and that is absolutely wrong. there are actually multiple plank units--mass, time and length can all be regarded as 'plank units'. the 'time' plank unit, is merely a very very small measurement of time. the thing is, it is so small because the DISTANCE OVER WHICH IT IS MEASURED IS SO SMALL. if you are operating in 'plank time' you are GOING the speed of light. that's it. and it most CERTAINLY does NOT shame any flash speed feat. why? because flash operates in the MACROWORLD. imagine how quickly flash could cover something as small as a plank length (google a planck length). seriously.

photon starts at point (a) and is released. when it crosses point (b), the time it took from point (a) to point (b) is measured. nothing in the universe can go from point (a) to (b) faster than a photon.

in the comicbook universe, that simply doesn't hold true.

i truly, in all sincerity, don't see how you're questioning this issue.

plank HIMSELF stated: these natural units would always remain the same as long as the law of gravitation, the speed of light in a vacuum, and the principles of thermodynamics remain valid.

the plank unit that defines time is BASED ON THE SPEED OF LIGHT. the plank length, as it was used by that author, was MISUSED. it makes no sense.

iow, to say someone exceeds light, means--BY PLANK'S OWN DEFINITION--that they are outside the boundaries defined by his units.

now, i agree with what you said a couple above--since nate was 'within' these time frames, he is seeing things in a quantum sense. but how does that translate into his "being really fast"? we can only go by how far in 'time' they were able to see. flash went to the END OF TIME. that implies his 'speed' (for lack of a better term, again)>nate's.

i would argue his ability is mainly perceptual because ares was also able to enter this localized timeframe he was in. no way it could have been motion-based.

seriously, if you are "covering ground in 'plank units'" you are misusing the term. if you don't see that..... shrug

Accepting everything you say without question, that pertains to Flash and speedsters exclusively.

Nate did pretty much what Zoom does but without blinking back into the normal stream.

Or something.

Personally, I'm not getting caught up on the Planck Length thing-- as Planck units were the 'cool thing' in Marvel at the time(not long before that the F4 beat MoD with Planck Heat, for example.) The other narration in that scene is what I'd focus on: "out of time", and "between moments". This narrative is very important because when Flash finally gained that level of 'speed', he was able to equal Zoom:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154203_Flash_v2_200_Page_14.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154207_Flash_v2_200_Page_15.jpg

So yeah, Nate should be able to move as fast as Zoom, and has much more versatility. I see this as a hugely one-sided battle, tbh.

Galan's arguing against Zoom? What's next, Carter's going to argue Superman would beat WBH in an arm wrestling competition?

http://i.imgur.com/YLHjL.gif

Originally posted by Cogito
Galan's arguing against Zoom? What's next, Carter's going to argue Superman would beat WBH in an arm wrestling competition?

http://i.imgur.com/YLHjL.gif Let's not compare Carter to Galan...

Originally posted by Cogito
Galan
Carter Reported for bashing.

...

He started it.


True story.

I wonder if it bothers Galan that I've posted everything he has here but just slightly before 3 times in a row

I'm guessing it has to do with internet speed. You might be running a kb/s or two faster than me.

Just imagine the damage Asstard could do with the Swedish internet empowering him.

Originally posted by Galan007
Personally, I'm not getting caught up on the Planck Length thing-- as Planck units were the 'cool thing' in Marvel at the time(not long before that the F4 beat MoD with Planck Heat, for example.) The other narration in that scene is what I'd focus on: "out of time", and "between moments". This narrative is very important because when Flash finally gained that level of 'speed', he was able to equal Zoom:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154203_Flash_v2_200_Page_14.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17154207_Flash_v2_200_Page_15.jpg

So yeah, Nate should be able to move as fast as Zoom, and has much more versatility. I see this as a hugely one-sided battle, tbh.

see, this here is what i'm not getting--nate never "moved" at all--unless you want to suggest his telekinetically stepping into a sidereal timeframe as "moving". he would need to actively utilize that skill and remove himself though, nor is there any indication this skill could be used in a battle scenario in any offensive way. he basically entered that timeframe to hide. once engrossed in that timeframe, he might be able to perceive zoom, maybe, i guess, but i still have no idea how he could fight at those speeds. i think flash could access that same timeframe if he chose, but once IN that timeframe, he could STILL utilize his superspeed the same way he could OUTSIDE said pocket timeframe, if you get what i'm saying. zoom could likely do the same imo, though since his power is timebased, it is a trickier question imo. bottomline--i don't equate what he did as being speed-related at all as much as it is time manip. and even if he could interact with the outside and 'battle from within that bubble' he would still be maxed at the speed of light. it's a cool power, but i've never understood why so many have nerdgasms over it. shrug

.

Zoom exists outside of time and locked between the ticks of a second(as he put it.)

Nate and Ares' battle also took place "out of time" and "between moments":
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17154591_Dark_X-Men_03_0016.jpg

...Which is why I think Nate can technically be on Zoom's level-- and with their speed/perceptions/etc. equalized, Zoom has no defense against Nate's TP.

yeah, but zoom operates on a level far exceeding nate's. nate's movement is discrete, so even assuming for a moment that he could somehow will himself to that place "between moments" where he could conceivably perceive zoom, zoom would destroy him BEFORE he ever reached that haven. and even if nate STARTED in that little time haven between moments, zoom operates in fractions of a moment even SMALLER than nate--that is to say there is no guarantee nate could perceive him at all, even FROM that place between moments. imo, he couldn't. he MAY well see zoom at reduced speeds though i guess, and be able to mount a tp assault. but that's ONLY assuming he was able to START the battle from his other-time bubble. he could never GET to it otherwise, least not imo, and not before zoom pummeled him to death. interesting discussion though.

We both know that Nate can think AND process information extremely fast, to say the least. So unless Zoom delivers Superman-level punches right out of the gate, Nate would almost certainly be able to weather the initial blitz long enough preform some sort of counterattack, imo.

Aside from the Planck time thingy, another easy option for Nate would be shielding--Zoom isn't breaching that even with Superman-level punches--in conjunction with mindphuckery. So yeah, even IF Nate didn't shift into his "haven"(I like that term for it), he should still be able to win.

Nate said that that was one of the three hundred ways he used to see

Which makes sense considering he was able to see/scan all planes of existence AND all futures, in the space of a single panel, to discern that Ares was war personified.

not sure it would take superman level punches to ko nate but i think we're at the point in our e-relationship where we can disagree agreeably. if not, gimme back the damn ring! sneer

the shield is def an option, and at that point it simply comes down to whether nate can think faster than zoom can move. no real proof to suggest he could do that since no one in marvel can operate at zoom/flashesque speeds. most likely scenario imo (not going all forum zoom) is that zoom DOES nail him, but fails to ko him THEN gets mind f'd. if we go forum zoom, or forum flash, imo nate gets killed before he can think his way to a win. the real irony--you love zoom and i actually love nate. kmc is crazy, crazy i tell ya!

Originally posted by leonidas
we can disagree agreeably. I'm fine with that.

So you didn't give him the ring back?

Zoom easily

The fukk is the world coming to?

I come in here seeing Galan strongly defending Shaman Nate Ghey, while Leo is debating for Forum Zoom?

I don't like this at all. This does sit well with me... Fukkin twilight zone.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
The fukk is the world coming to?

I come in here seeing Galan strongly defending Shaman Nate Ghey, while Leo is debating for Forum Zoom?

I don't like this at all. This does sit well with me... Fukkin twilight zone.
Next you would see quan arguing for darkseid against thanos and Carver arguing for superman against hulk.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Next you would see quan arguing for darkseid against thanos and Carver arguing for superman against hulk.


Better yet, ODG and Philo agreeing on the same thing. I tell ya it's a frukked up world we live in.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Next you would see quan arguing for darkseid against thanos and Carver arguing for superman against hulk.



Someone has a male crush on me.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Better yet, ODG and Philo agreeing on the same thing. I tell ya it's a frukked up world we live in.
KMC would explode bro.Originally posted by carver9
Someone has a male crush on me.
Yeah, that celey guy always had a crush on you.

Nate

The mechanics behind Nate/Zoom shifting in between moments are familiar. But the context, of how each character applies said ability differs.

Zoom uses it as a means to be ahead of anyone in real time.

X-Man uses it as a means to vastly extend his perception, and time travel.


So while Nate could do what Zoom does, and be ahead of anyone in real time. Does not garuntee it will allow him to be on equal footing with Zooms speed. Considering Zoom, still retains all of his abilities, within those time bubble. But if you look at it objectively, Nate retains all of his abilities as well, and I find it difficult to believe Zoom has the means to put him down, since he is living energy, held together by thought alone. Where Nate has the means to put Zoom down, if he can land a strong Telepathic or Telekinetic assault.

Originally posted by "Id"
The mechanics behind Nate/Zoom shifting in between moments are familiar. But the context, of how each character applies said ability differs.

Zoom uses it as a means to be ahead of anyone in real time.

X-Man uses it as a means to vastly extend his perception, and time travel.


So while Nate could do what Zoom does, and be ahead of anyone in real time. Does not garuntee it will allow him to be on equal footing with Zooms speed.



pretty much all's i was sayin.



i can agree with this as well. i think zoom COULD put nate down, but the magnitude of the attack it would take to completely overwhelm nate before nate could bring his mindphuckery to bear is unlikely to happen if we consider zoom's character. i think zoom would def get his first shots in, but nate would still be around to deal with him via tp or tk. it would require forum zoom (or at least extreme high end zoom) to completely take nate out before zoom was mindraped.

I give this match to Leo

Oh wait, sorry, it was so polite and well reasoned in here, I thoughtit was a BZ.