Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Just so you know, DeFalco himself has pointed out that Thor simply removed the force field.
And no, he didn't tie Juggernaut's durability to the force field. Cain went on to point out that he was resistant to all forms of pain and injury. He however did tie his invulnerability to the force field. Which is NOT a contradiction and very much in-line with continuity based on the comics that come before and after. And I mean like in the 60's:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14wytdl&s=6#.UqVQU-IVBfs
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35c4m5f&s=6#.UqVQZ-IVBfs
As a matter of fact, denouncing DeFalco when we have FAR worse showings for Cain (Vs. Nightcrawler, Captain Universe, Storm/Spider-Woman, Nimrod, large fan, Feral, Shatterstar, Onslaught, Deadpool, Vision etc.) is silly imo. How about we do a tally of all the times he's been portrayed as invulnerable without his force field and all the times he's been hurt without it?
Even that Oblivion scene was later expanded on and was made it clear it was no real feat and he was simply banished and died:
http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/1918857-x_men_legacy_219__zone_megan__pg11_super.jpg
Greeting Rage. Always a pleasure.
I disagree though on your stance regarding DeFalco's writing in that issue.
This is not a knock on all his work. Just that battle sequence.
The rest I'll hit in bits if you don't mind.
"Just so you know, DeFalco himself has pointed out that Thor simply removed the force field."
I understand what he claims to have done. I disagree with how it was portrayed on panel.
There is a conflict between his words and how Cain's modern power-set works.
"And no, he didn't tie Juggernaut's durability to the force field. Cain went on to point out that he was resistant to all forms of pain and injury. He however did tie his invulnerability to the force field."
I don't see the difference. Invulnerability is simply the state of having absolute durability. I used the terms interchangeably.
And Cain's FF was absolutely tied to his durability in that particular issue; which is off base.
When the Force Field was stripped, Thor's punches "hurt" Cain.
They made him scream out in pain.
Thus he was obviously not resistant to all forms of pain or injury at that time.
If he was- Thor's punches would not have caused him pain or injured him.
"Which is NOT a contradiction and very much in-line with continuity based on the comics that come before and after."
Comics before and after?
Before- Agreed. But only in VERY early showings.
After- I don't believe so. Cain's Power-Set has been solid for decades now. It just took a few years to flesh it out.
In point of fact...
Juggernaut's character concept evolved greatly over the first few years.
In his first battle with fuzzy Beast; his power was tied to his helmet.
In his early X-Men days; he was an arcane spell caster.
But that was a very long time ago.
And this is not what "modern" Juggernaut is (modern including the timeframe of the above mentioned battle with Thor- and pretty much everything over the past 30 years).
Everything 1980's + has been very stable.
And honestly- If you back far enough in anyone's history you will find oddities.
Heck; Iron Man was able to knock out Silver Surfer with a charge attack in the 70's. Things change. Cain sure as heck did.
DeFalco wrote "modern" (post 70's) Juggernaut. And he wrote him wrong.
Modern Juggernaut's invulnerability is an enchantment built into his skin.
Not his Force Field.
All the FF did for him was keep objects from touching him. It did not alter his invulnerability to damage.
Juggs is also vulnerable to powerful magic. That Godblast should have knocked a bloody hole through his chest. FF or no. That is divine magic of insane proportions.
(And I get that Thor wasn't 100%... still, a Godblast is a Godblast.)
On a side note:
This is likely why Marvel hasn't displayed the FF in over a decade.
Because it became an unnecessary duplication of power-set: an invulnerable being does not need a FF. It is redundant.
Thus Marvel has taken Cain's FF away.
"And I mean like in the 60's:"
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14wytdl&s=6#.UqVQU-IVBfs
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35c4m5f&s=6#.UqVQZ-IVBfs
Like I said- character evolution.
Cain dropped that mantle long ago. His Respect Thread on this very Forum shows as much.
Even without his FF; Cain casually walks through titanic amounts of physical damage with no effect.
As for dying in space after an "eternity"- I don't see how this is contrary to his Invulnerability being "skin deep."
Time was his enemy- not punches.
Even Cyttorak itself is not immune to eventual entropy.
"As a matter of fact, denouncing DeFalco"
Not DeFalco as a whole. Only his work on that battle...
"when we have FAR worse showings for Cain"
Most have Plot Bomb reasons to explain them.
I'll need to hit on each incident to show where and why.
"(Vs. Nightcrawler, Captain Universe, Storm/Spider-Woman, Nimrod, large fan, Feral, Shatterstar, Onslaught, Deadpool, Vision etc.) is silly imo."
Kk... let's see here...
Nightcrawler- Not sure what you are referring too. Issue #?
Captain Universe- Blew his helmet off and Psi-Blasted the hell out of him.
Storm/Spider-Woman- Is likely PIS. I need the issue # to see if Cain was weakened. I don't like to cry PIS often; but the fact is that Cain has tanked FAR worse than "Storm Class" of damage with his FF down. This event sounds like a fringe showing. Low Ball all the way. Perhaps even non-canon. Need issue #...
Nimrod- Did not physically harm Cain. He targeted his brain with Sonics and mimicked the same effect as a Psionic Attack (neural overload). The attack bypassed his body and went for the brain. Cain's brain has always been his Achilles heel. It's his Kryptonite.
Feral- Much like Nightcrawler- not sure what you are referring too...
Shatterstar- Used a magic weapon. His blades are enchanted to slice through magic barriers. They are practically custom made to carve out Cain's eye.
Onslaught- Was a reality manipulator (and a supreme psionic). His power level was high enough to be able to strip away Cain's Enchantments. And once you do that- you get "Huggernaut."
"How about we do a tally of all the times he's been portrayed as invulnerable without his force field and all the times he's been hurt without it?"
Please do. I can always use more material for my Hulk/Juggy debates.
But to be honest- the tally would be rather short; and most of the showings would have a specific reason for Cain's Invulnerability (or durability if preferred) to be lessened in said showing.
But yes; by all means list a tally. I would love to discuss them with you.
.
