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The master of the mind vs the master of not-dying


Let's say they each want to steal the other's immortality secrets to expand their knowledge

Sion steps on a tack and becomes so enraged he can't be destroyed. He then goes on to thrash Darth Andeddu.

Ah, but is he thrashing Andeddu, or an illusion?

Andeddu kills by making one's mind believe wounds happen to such a level the wounds are made real.

Pretty sure Sion doesn't require things like sleep, so he has all day to find Andeddu.

I'm not sure how that'd help against Andeddu killing him with his mind. His illusions can slay sith by making them think they're dead, we aren't just taking 'use illusions to hide onesself and cover other attacks' stuff, the illusions themselves are deadly attacks.

Originally posted by Q99
Ah, but is he thrashing Andeddu, or an illusion?

Andeddu kills by making one's mind believe wounds happen to such a level the wounds are made real.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm not sure how that'd help against Andeddu killing him with his mind. His illusions can slay sith by making them think they're dead, we aren't just taking 'use illusions to hide onesself and cover other attacks' stuff, the illusions themselves are deadly attacks.

That's highly impressive, no question, but the thing with Sion is that he can handle deadly attacks. To all intents and purposes he is a zombie. His body is broken and rotting with his Force powers the only thing holding him together. A few more deadly wounds won't bother him at all. Heck, pain makes him stronger.

Meetra Surik, the Exile, was only able to kill him by convincing him to let go of his hate and pass on, and I'm pretty sure she was only able to do that because he loved her (a warped and twisted love but still love).

I don't see how Andeddu could do the same thing. And as he keeps trying to kill Sion with his illusion attacks, Sion will just keep feeding on the pain and getting stronger until he gets strong enough to just blast through the illusions and slice Andeddu up.

Yes, but think for a second about the method- Andeddu's illusions make wounds by convincing the mind they're real to the extent they become real. Or in other words, Sion's own mind is the media used to kill him.


When Wyyrlok killed Andeddu with illusions in their epic illusion-fight, Andeddu's body was perfectly intact, but his soul was destroyed. The same could happen here.

That depends on how susceptible to the illusions Sion would be. What do we know about their effectiveness on others? Sadow, in his sphere, could create illusions that killed people across the galaxy at the same time. Lesser Force users could made illusions that could be dispelled (Nomi did as much, and she's a relative Force noob).

There's some kind of threshold where illusions either work really well or not at all.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That depends on how susceptible to the illusions Sion would be. What do we know about their effectiveness on others? Sadow, in his sphere, could create illusions that killed people across the galaxy at the same time. Lesser Force users could made illusions that could be dispelled (Nomi did as much, and she's a relative Force noob).

There's some kind of threshold where illusions either work really well or not at all.

We know the Sith of his time feared his power and refused to take him on without ganging up.

We know they were capable of working against Darth Wyyrlok, the Sith who ended up killing him in an illusion duel and who was an extremely powerful sith sorcerer in his own right.


In short, breaking Andeddu's illusions is something I'd expect only top Dark Lords to do, he was able to be top dog of his time based on their strength.

Originally posted by Q99
We know the Sith of his time feared his power and refused to take him on without ganging up.

We know they were capable of working against Darth Wyyrlok, the Sith who ended up killing him in an illusion duel and who was an extremely powerful sith sorcerer in his own right.


In short, breaking Andeddu's illusions is something I'd expect only top Dark Lords to do, he was able to be top dog of his time based on their strength.

Right, I understand. But what level of strength is sufficient? This isn't clear. Newbie Nomi could dispel illusions of high calibre, and Sion's power in the Force is so raw and primal that he can reconstruct his body after clinical death and keep it maintained even though it is rotting and should fall apart into dust at any moment.

Saying the Exile, who has a very specific relation with Sion, can talk Sion into death through extended plot development is one thing.

Saying Andeddu can just illusion him to death by virtue of other people being scared of him is another and is less clear.

Well, Wyyrlok, who seems to be about as good to a little stronger, in turn had his illusions broken by Krayt (though not easily).

So Krayt's strong enough, fairly definitely.




It's more, Andeddu's illusions were used in practice against someone quite strong, and even Wyyrlok just countered with his own rather than break it. And others being afraid of him speaks to them not thinking *they* could break it without help either. Best-of-an-era does have implications, as does his outright feat.

And illusioning to death seems a pretty ideal way to kill Sion, since it really is making one's own mind kill them.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, Wyyrlok, who seems to be about as good to a little stronger, in turn had his illusions broken by Krayt (though not easily).

So Krayt's strong enough, fairly definitely.

Agreed on Krayt. But I was more or less trying to establish the baseline for just who Andeddu can overpower. Sion's control and will is very very strong. He uses his rage and pain to overcome death itself. I find it hard to believe some illusions will unravel him like a Christmas present.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Agreed on Krayt. But I was more or less trying to establish the baseline for just who Andeddu can overpower. Sion's control and will is very very strong. He uses his rage and pain to overcome death itself. I find it hard to believe some illusions will unravel him like a Christmas present.


It's not just 'some illusions,' though, any more than Sion's is 'some healing.' It's high-end sith killing sith sorcery.

Sion's got rage, but does he have the force power and knowledge? If he can't break free, he'll lose.

Originally posted by Q99
It's not just 'some illusions,' though, any more than Sion's is 'some healing.' It's high-end sith killing sith sorcery.

Sion's got rage, but does he have the force power and knowledge? If he can't break free, he'll lose.

Sion's depth of knowledge is relatively unknown. We know he survived the Sith Wars before, and he served under Revan and under Traya. He's got Force Drain, both active and passive. And again, his rage prevents his entire body from falling apart. The level of sheer power and control that this requires is very very impressive and pretty much unique to him.

Even if the illusions could cause physical damage (as Sadow's did; Aleema's did not, IIRC), Andeddu has to know exactly how to contain or dismantle Sion without the enemy closing the gap or initiating a TK/Force Drain battle that may disrupt his illusions. Keep in mind that when Aleema used illusions, the sufficiently Force powerful (but not Force knowledgeable) Nomi pinpointed her location and assaulted her mind in turn. Sion, himself proficient if not masterful in using the Force to sense others, could potentially prove sufficient enough in raw Force strength to resist attempts to destroy his mind and pinpoint Andeddu even if briefly for a melee attack or Force drain attack.

As I recall, a loading screen does say that he learned his immortality technique on Malachor though.

They certainly can and did.



Not too different than Wyyrlok and Andeddu engaging in their duel. Wyyrlok managed to win, but he's both the Loremaster of the One Sith and second only to Krayt, and even then not by much.


And their mind-to-mind illusion duel looked like This.

Andeddu woops ass.