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Setting takes place on the ship where they fought in ROTS, though remember that this is ANH Kenobi, Ben Kenobi, not Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Round 1 - Sabers
Round 2 - Force Abilities
Round 3 - All-Out

Who takes this?

Tyranus curbstomps all three. Mismatch.

He certainly doesn't curbstomp in sabers.. this much I know for sure

Yes he does Ben Kenobi isn't even ROTS Kenobi level at this point. He curbstomps all 3

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he does Ben Kenobi isn't even ROTS Kenobi level at this point. He curbstomps all 3 The hell are you talking about? He's above ROTS Kenobi, just his simple comments can make you see that. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine." AND "You can't win, Darth." Obi-Wan isn't one to over-exaggerate.

Ben is not more powerful then his ROTS self, where did you get that fanfiction from?

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Obi-Wan%20Kenobi/BenKenobiwasashadowofhisformerself_zps7575358a.png

Originally posted by NTJack0
Ben is not more powerful then his ROTS self, where did you get that fanfiction from? Oops, I guess Obi-Wan somehow grew weaker between the events of ROTS and ANH, even though it is heavily implied that its the opposite, I guess all that training with two of the most Jedi Master's in the Jedi Order was all for naught, right?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Obi-Wan%20Kenobi/BenKenobiwasashadowofhisformerself_zps7575358a.png What quote is that from?

Insider #62: Fightsaber.

^ Dooku>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Kenobi

That was out before ROTS was made, in 2002, and at the end of the ROTS movie, Obi-Wan was about to begin rigorous training with Yoda and Qui-Gon. It
makes absolutely no sense to include that in the movie if it has no relevance to Ben Kenobi's power. Everyone in this forum keeps arguing that "They just said it, to say it, therfore its just there to be there, in general" No, everything that is said in all the Star Wars movies is true, its not just said to be said, it actually means something and is relevant. Obi-Wan is told he is going to be trained by Qui-Gon again at the end of ROTS, and we know canonically that during the gap between ROTS and ANH, Kenobi had trained with Yoda as well. I doubt Yoda just went Mr. Miyagi style and just said "Paint my Dagobah house" No, he trained him, so you mean to tell me that despite all that training through about 19 years meant absolutely nothing?????

Kenobi was trained by Qui-Gon so he could learn how to be a Force ghost.

The source stands. It has never been retconned by anything.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kenobi was trained by Qui-Gon so he could learn how to be a Force ghost.

The source stands. It has never been retconned by anything. Then how come Anakin became a force ghost? If you have to be "Trained"

I'd say that Vader being a shadow of his former self has been conclusively retconned by The Force Unleashed and other sources, myself. Kenobi though....

Nah. Vader at the time lost to Maul. Also Vader was equal with only equal with Kenobi so there.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then how come Anakin became a force ghost? If you have to be "Trained"
I believe he was taught to after Sidious got destroyed.

That may not have been really Maul. It was an ambiguous clone thing. Plus it was only in pure lightsabers. Most of Vaders strength comes from being stupidly good with the Force.

I know. But Vader might find it hard to employ TK against an opponent as aggressive as Maul, at least when he's behind in skill.

I'd say its more just PIS. Vader should have used TK more. Especially since iirc theres plenty of times when theres the opportunity to use it i.e. when Mauls gloating like an utter retard.

Plus reading it again, Vader does pretty well actually. He cuts his saber in half (again).

That's not the whole fight. And Vader used TK to have the blasters shoot at Maul.

IIRC Path of Destruction heavily explores that it depends on the situation. Likewise Maul is far more powerful than Obi-Wan but they fought for a minute without Maul using TK at all. Same goes for Starkiller. He is more powerful than any of his opponents but was still losing his duels because of inferior skill.

Vader TKing the blasters was so weak as to be laughable. If he wanted to show the real power of the darkside he should have busted out something way bigger considering his feats.

Maul is much more focused on physical lightsaber fights than using the Force though, which is why he only really uses it to supplement his duels. Vader uses the Force alot in fights.

Lol.

TPM Maul, sure. TCW Maul? Not so much. He has choked Kenobi several times, almost to death in a comic.

Again, Starkiller. Malgus' TK feats outshines Zallow's by a lot but Zallow gave him a tough fight because of his comparable skill. Anakin is extremely powerful but is more of a duelist than a Force practitioner. Savage has used TK waves in duels before yet never did so against Ventress or Koon.

TK and the likes is certainly important when fighting someone of comparable skill and physique, but this is why I find skill and physical attributes more important than TK.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nah. Vader at the time lost to Maul. Also Vader was equal with only equal with Kenobi so there.


I believe he was taught to after Sidious got destroyed. In about a week, tops? Guess after a week, Obi-Wan and Yoda never spoke again, all 19 years of training never existed, Obi-Wan just learned that one thing then decided to lose (Yes, on PURPOSE) to Vader. I doubt that was all he was taught.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lol.

TCW Maul? Not so much. He has choked Kenobi several times, almost to death in a comic.




Kenobi was at a disadvantage every time Maul choked him. The comic choke was on a darkside nexus. The other times you can see for yourself how Kenobi was disadvantaged.

But I agree Maul is probably Kenobi's superior in the Force. Just not by as much as you seem to be making out.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kenobi was trained by Qui-Gon so he could learn how to be a Force ghost.

The source stands. It has never been retconned by anything.

what gives you the impression that his is a high source of canon. You act like it's G canon or something.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
what gives you the impression that his is a high source of canon. You act like it's G canon or something. Its still canon.........
Until the end of ROTS which makes that quote nearly moot.

I KNOW. ANH BEN IS EQUAL TO VADER WHO IN TURN IS EQUAL TO PoD VADER SO ANH BEN >>>> DOOKU.

/thread.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I KNOW. ANH BEN IS EQUAL TO VADER WHO IN TURN IS EQUAL TO PoD VADER SO ANH BEN >>>> DOOKU.

/thread.
No, ANH Ben is above ANH Vader, but what was Kenobi going to do if he defeated Vader, fight Sidious? Cause that shit would most likely turn out pretty damn bad on Obi-Wan's part.

Seriously?

Sounds legit.

Well, in their fight, Ben certainly sounded pretty damn confident to the point where he was convinced that there was no way Vader could win. Unless Ben was just bullshitting the entire Audience.

If he was confident he'd win, he'd win.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he was confident he'd win, he'd win.
Curses, foiled again!

I feel like this is a really bad trolling attempt.

Why would he let Vader kill him if he could win?

Are you on the drugs?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would he let Vader kill him if he could win?

Are you on the drugs? He chose to die, Ben made no attempt to block his attack.

No shit. But if he was confident he could win, he wouldn't choose to pointlessly die, he'd kill Vader.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The hell are you talking about? He's above ROTS Kenobi, just his simple comments can make you see that. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine." AND "You can't win, Darth." Obi-Wan isn't one to over-exaggerate.

No he's not, in fact Kenobi is usually very humble about his own abilities. But I'm pretty sure he was speaking metaphorically in both of those cases.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Obi-Wan is told he is going to be trained by Qui-Gon again at the end of ROTS, and we know canonically that during the gap between ROTS and ANH, Kenobi had trained with Yoda as well. I doubt Yoda just went Mr. Miyagi style and just said "Paint my Dagobah house" No, he trained him, so you mean to tell me that despite all that training through about 19 years meant absolutely nothing?????

No offence but three things:

1) Kenobi was training how to transcend death and appear to the living as a Force spirit, not how to be a better fighter.

2) The training did not last anywhere near 19 years since the majority of that time Ben was living in exile on Tattooine watching over Luke.

3) No, I'm quite sure that once he was on Tattooine Ben had no contact with Yoda, seeing as both of them were in hiding.

Anyway, Ben allowed Vader to kill him so that Luke and the others would flee. If he had tried to continue the fight then Luke would have gone to aid him and probably have gotten killed.

That being said, again, Ben's "you can't win Darth" was metaphorical and should not be taken literally.

I reccommend watching Jenssarai1's video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B80Jdj1bbv0

Obviously this is just his opinion but I feel he makes some very good points.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi was at a disadvantage every time Maul choked him. The comic choke was on a darkside nexus. The other times you can see for yourself how Kenobi was disadvantaged.

But I agree Maul is probably Kenobi's superior in the Force. Just not by as much as you seem to be making out.
The place was strong with the dark side, but Maul only let go after flying far away from Kenobi's location.

DOOKU.

Also, the same source states that Ben could hold off Vader but not defeat him, and also that Vader could not break through Ben's defenses. So they were at an impasse.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
1) Kenobi was training how to transcend death and appear to the living as a Force spirit, not how to be a better fighter.

2) The training did not last anywhere near 19 years since the majority of that time Ben was living in exile on Tattooine watching over Luke.

3) No, I'm quite sure that once he was on Tattooine Ben had no contact with Yoda, seeing as both of them were in hiding.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
Tyranus curbstomps all three. Mismatch.

I'm pretty sure, Dooku could curbstomps sabers and all-out. I'm not sure about the force, since even Vader somehow wasn't able to break Kenobi's guard.
If Kenobi didin't become stronger in the force, that would mean, that Vader was toying with him, or Dooku's TK was better then Vader's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say that Vader being a shadow of his former self has been conclusively retconned by The Force Unleashed

Depends. From my point a view TFU doesn't change anything. I believe, that Sidious was toying with Starkiller, and we can see him using his full power in the dark side ending. I believe, that he'was able to crush Starkiller the whole time. Vader couldn't, so Sidious is far above him in every way.

I have no idea why anyone would think TFU changes anything. Vader's best feats are during the Purge in various comics, not in TFU. Anakin's feats are better than Vader's anyway.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have no idea why anyone would think TFU changes anything. Vader's best feats are during the Purge in various comics, not in TFU. Anakin's feats are better than Vader's anyway.

Now thats true, Anakin is ahead of Vader, due to Zonakin, and the ever important Mortakin, in regular combat though, I'm not exactly sure. Though I already posted that fight, its been buried partially though.

Originally posted by Zett




I'm pretty sure, Dooku could curbstomps sabers and all-out. I'm not sure about the force, since even Vader somehow wasn't able to break Kenobi's guard.
If Kenobi didin't become stronger in the force, that would mean, that Vader was toying with him, or Dooku's TK was better then Vader's.



Depends. From my point a view TFU doesn't change anything. I believe, that Sidious was toying with Starkiller, and we can see him using his full power in the dark side ending. I believe, that he'was able to crush Starkiller the whole time. Vader couldn't, so Sidious is far above him in every way.

Vader canonically had at least 80% of Sidious' power. (Though I think thats the maximum as well)

Yeah, but I always considered is as raw power. He can be technically better in some force techniques (perhaps TK, for example) then Sidious. But if they both will mastered some technique to the highest degree, then Sidious' will be stronger.

Sidious would stomp Vader, not even worth discussing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious would stomp Vader, not even worth discussing.

This is true, but it's canon that he has 80% Sidious power.

I might not say stomp, though he would win.

It would be an effortless speedblitz.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It would be an effortless speedblitz.
Again, Vader canonically has 80% of Sidious' FULL power.

So?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So?


So he's obviously not going to effortlessly stomp someone who is 80% as powerful as him.

If he could then Vader wouldn't be anywhere close to 80% as powerful.

Yes he is.

That's stupid.

@ Darth Power, Intrepid37

I agree, that pure force battle would be an effortless win for Sidious. I'm not sure about pure sabers duel, but considering Vader's all duels, I think, that it's possible for Sidious to blitz Vader. Anyway, easy win for Sidious again.
But all-out against might be hardest for Sidious. Vader can use his saber to defend himself againt FL, and can use TK to attack hist master. Sidious would win at the end, but in this scenario Vader has some chances.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The hell are you talking about? He's above ROTS Kenobi, just his simple comments can make you see that. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine." AND "You can't win, Darth." Obi-Wan isn't one to over-exaggerate.

Well, and Vader killed Anakin ye? It's Kenobi's logic, nothing more. I think, that in Kenobi's point of view, he won this duel against Vader.
Vader killed him, so he became immortal as force ghost (= he won). If he would killed Vader, he would also won. because Vader would be dead.
But he wasn't stronger then his ROTS self. He became much weaker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's stupid.
Silver's argument recently persuaded me.

Originally posted by Zett


I agree, that pure force battle would be an effortless win for Sidious.


Nah, Vader's a TK Beast. I mean a Real Beast. And he can defend FL with his Saber.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Silver's argument recently persuaded me.


Silver's an interesting read for sure, but he seems to jump strides in some of his conclusions. He says for instance that Sidious could speed blitz Mace Windu(before he has a chance to fully submerge himself in Vappad). Which basically means he would speed blitz Dooku as well. That's just too out there when considering the movie fights (Yoda vs Dooku and Windu vs Sidious).

I stand by the argument that if it's silly to think Sidious is going to speed blitz someone who by Lucas's own words is 80% as powerful as himself. Tiin/Kolar/Fisto for instance are clearly not even close to being 50% as powerful as Sidious. Overall power has to account for speed.

I recently thought like you, but then, Sidious being slightly faster than Yoda is probably.

Regardless, sourcebooks have said that Mace hadn't even realized what had happened when Kit, Saesee and Agen had died. Lucas mentions that only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious; no mention of Anakin, Dooku, Kenobi, all of whom are even with Mace in speed if not faster, which leads me to believe that Yoda is the only one capable of competing with Sidious' speed on a regular basis, while Mace is the only one capable of channeling the darkness within him thanks to Vaapad.

Originally posted by Zett
Well, and Vader killed Anakin ye? It's Kenobi's logic, nothing more. I think, that in Kenobi's point of view, he won this duel against Vader.
Vader killed him, so he became immortal as force ghost (= he won). If he would killed Vader, he would also won. because Vader would be dead.
But he wasn't stronger then his ROTS self. He became much weaker. So, lets try a what-if here, shall we? Luke gets killed in a speeder accident a few days before he meets Ben. Regardless, Kenobi is devastated. Not only has Anakin's son died, but Ben lacks the strength to take down the empire on his own, even with Yoda's help. Ben looks for Leia, but, much to his dismay, her traitorous actions against the empire had forced The Emperor's hand, he ordered her to be executed personally by Vader. Neither Vader nor Leia knowing the connection between them. Ben regrets never trying to get stronger in order to adequetely fight off Vader and the Empire, what can he do, how can he help? Is the galaxy doomed? Wait, Yoda cou--- Oh, wait, Yoda dies a few years later. So yes, the galaxy is doomed, all because Ben was never trained in the ways of Yoda past ROTS, Ben tries to take down the Death Star on his own, getting Han Solo's help as he did in ANH. They get to the Death Star and Darth Vader senses him, they stalemate eachother until stormtroopers come and blast Ben's head off. Han Solo gets away with his money by turning off the ship's tractor beam and sneaking to his ship before using hyperspeed in a clean getaway. Regardless, the galaxy is doomed, and all this because Ben put all his trust in Anakin's children, who both died.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah, Vader's a TK Beast. I mean a Real Beast. And he can defend FL with his Saber.

Yeah, that's why I said, that Vader's best chances are in all-out. In pure force battle, he would not have lightsaber to defend himself against lightning. That's why I consider pre force battle as easy win for Sidious.

@Jmanghan

Yoda - GM of the Jedi Order, after about 800 years of traning was unable to kill Sidious. Kenobi wasn't even a match for Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious being slightly faster than Yoda is probably.

Don't see how anyone would come to that conclusion given that if anyone was winning the Saber fight between Yoda and Sidious, then it was Yoda.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Regardless, sourcebooks have said that Mace hadn't even realized what had happened when Kit, Saesee and Agen had died.

If that was literally true, then Mace would have also been cut down.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lucas mentions that only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious; no mention of Anakin, Dooku, Kenobi, all of whom are even with Mace in speed if not faster,

Well Anakin and Kenobi would simply get TK stomped by Sidious, same way he TK stomped Maul and Opress.

As for Count Dooku, Lucas's statement was in reference to the Jedi Mace took with him to challenge Sidious. Dooku is neither a Jedi, nor is he even alive at the point in question.

Also it depends what Lucas means by "compete"? Does he mean just put up a fight, or does he mean actually having a chance at defeating Sidious? If he means the latter then Dooku obviously should not be included, if however he means the former, then Dooku has already displayed he can put up a fight against Yoda. So there's absolutely no reason to believe that he couldn't at least put up a fight against Sidious as well.

So context needs to be considered in Lucas's statement.

The much more relevant statement of Lucas Imho is Vader being 80% as powerful as Sidious, given that was a direct comparison of power without any specific context that could alter it's meaning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't see how anyone would come to that conclusion given that if anyone was winning the Saber fight between Yoda and Sidious, then it was Yoda.
Yoda is likely a marginally better swordsman than Sidious; the Sith could still very well be faster, given that he's more powerful.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If that was literally true, then Mace would have also been cut down.
Exactly.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Anakin and Kenobi would simply get TK stomped by Sidious, same way he TK stomped Maul and Opress.
Anakin's TK feats are a tier or two above Mace's. Also, Lucas personally line-edited the novel wherein Anakin couldn't even see Sidious' movements, only countless afterimages.

Anakin never witnessed Sidious' fight. And Anakins TK feats are nowhere near a tier above Windu's. If anything, Windu is a tier above him.

LOL. Mace's TK feats are barely above Savage's if at all.

And Anakins are?

Yes.

Only in CW material, which I'll remind you has Mace still outperforming Anakin plus this:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8954/tothevanishingpoint3.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2438/tothevanishingpoint4.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9666/tothevanishingpoint5.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7164/tothevanishingpoint6.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7216/tothevanishingpoint7y.jpg

That stupid feat with Anakin pushing a platform is still fail.

Even outside CW material Anakin has casually moved Durge's escape pod in Obsession and with a Force Scream collapsed a thirty meter high/ninety meter wide building.

In space, which I'll remind you makes things weightless and that was a pissed off Anakin with the scream. Also looking at the comic with Durge, Anakin doesn't do it casually, since he's clutching his head afterwards.

Mace has lifted a tank with the Force and pulverised a group of droids into scrap with a Force Wave. Plus he has his feats from Shatterpoint where he did some impressive stuff with a landslide.

IIRC the pod was actually attached to the ship, so he had to push it out. And I don't recall he was pissed.

When did he lift a tank? He had to visibly gather energy to push a tank off a cliff. Collapsing a thirty meter tall dome facility is vastly superior.

And in Shatterpoint IIRC he failed to save a few civilians because he wasn't powerful enough to move the landslide.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2139198-new_picture__94_.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2139199-new_picture__95_.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2139200-new_picture__96_.jpg

It doesn't look like he pushed it out as opposed to just you know, activating it. It is an escape pod after all. He was pissed off at Dooku as I recall, who was taunting him.

Thats what I was referring to. And I would disagree with you on that, the force needed to push a huge tank would be about the same as is needed to smash a roof.

"The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of broken rock ten meters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, Why wait? and shoved.

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed.

With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava, organics bursting into flames that the growing landslide instantly smothered as it built itself into a huge wedge-shaped berm of raw dirt across the gully; as lava slowly bulged and climbed the upstream face, the downstream side of the cliff continued to collapse, piling over cooler lava that hardened beneath it, pushing the hotter, more liquid lava into a wave that washed around the steamcrawler's side, welled to the lip of the precipice, then plunged in a rain of fire upon the black jungle far below.

The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof."

He still moved it to send it into the sun, so he still pushed it.

Eh... did you actually read the book? He admitted that he wouldn't be able to do with TK.

Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

But he had other talents.

And Anakin was not pissed.

In the ruined archive hall of LiMerge Power's plasma facility, Count Dooku waited for Kenobi and Skywalker to arrive. The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high and three times that in circumference. Dooku could imagine it when it had hummed with life and activity, before the catastrophe. Still, that it had remained intact was a testament to its builders. And with its curved walls of holobooks and data storage disks - - irradiated beyond salvage - - he accepted that some might believe that secrets of the most sinister sort were concealed here.

Dragging himself out from under plasteel girders and chunks of ferrocrete, Count Dooku came shakily to his feet and gazed in astonished disbelief at the shambles of the control room. Had the containment dome been so weak that it had succumbed to flurries of ricocheting blaster bolts, or had Skywalker's voiced rage actually called the ceiling down? Had Dooku not leapt forcefully at the last moment, he might have been buried, as the two Jedi were, somewhere below, in the expanse of rubble that covered the archive room. He was certain that they had survived. But if nothing else they were trapped, which had been the intent from the start. But Skywalker...

Assuming that he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He still moved it to send it into the sun, so he still pushed it.

Lol, do you not see that the pods engines are on? All he did was direct its movement, its pushing itself.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Eh... did you actually read the book? He admitted that he wouldn't be able to do with TK.

Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

But he had other talents.

Yeah, I know he couldn't lift the steamcrawler, but he was directing the landslide/

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And Anakin was not pissed.

In the ruined archive hall of LiMerge Power's plasma facility, Count Dooku waited for Kenobi and Skywalker to arrive. The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high and three times that in circumference. Dooku could imagine it when it had hummed with life and activity, before the catastrophe. Still, that it had remained intact was a testament to its builders. And with its curved walls of holobooks and data storage disks - - irradiated beyond salvage - - he accepted that some might believe that secrets of the most sinister sort were concealed here.

Dragging himself out from under plasteel girders and chunks of ferrocrete, Count Dooku came shakily to his feet and gazed in astonished disbelief at the shambles of the control room. Had the containment dome been so weak that it had succumbed to flurries of ricocheting blaster bolts, or had Skywalker's voiced rage actually called the ceiling down? Had Dooku not leapt forcefully at the last moment, he might have been buried, as the two Jedi were, somewhere below, in the expanse of rubble that covered the archive room. He was certain that they had survived. But if nothing else they were trapped, which had been the intent from the start. But Skywalker...

Assuming that he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized.

Nice reading skills, buddy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, do you not see that the pods engines are on? All he did was direct its movement, its pushing itself.
Where?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I know he couldn't lift the steamcrawler, but he was directing the landslide/
He nearly cried.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice reading skills, buddy.
lol

Do you even know the point of a Force Scream? It is when a Force user releases a scream out of anger... of course he's gonna be angry.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Where?

The four glowing things on the back of the pod.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
He nearly cried.

What a pussy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

Do you even know the point of a Force Scream? It is when a Force user releases a scream out of anger... of course he's gonna be angry.

Thus why its an attack that draws on an anger Anakin usually suppresses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The four glowing things on the back of the pod.
Look at when it's flying into the sun, it's moving far faster than before because Anakin pushed it.




Originally posted by Nephthys
What a pussy.
'Least Stover doesn't wank his favorite characters.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Thus why its an attack that draws on an anger Anakin usually suppresses.
Yes. Any dark side power draws on anger. That's why a Force Scream happens involuntary but is still a demonstration of power. This isn't complicated.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Look at when it's flying into the sun, it's moving far faster than before because Anakin pushed it.


'Least Stover doesn't wank his favorite characters.


Yes. Any dark side power draws on anger. That's why a Force Scream happens involuntary but is still a demonstration of power. This isn't complicated.

No it isn't. Its impossible to tell speed or time in those panels.

The RotS novel is basically nothing else by furious handjobs to all the PT characters.

Yes, and Anakin drawing on the darkside isn't representative of his usual abilities.


So really, how is Anakin a tier or two above Windu? Because I'm not seeing it so far.

Cmon lol. In the third scan it's easy to see.

It's Anakin's only appearance where I like him.

lol
Scream is a dark side power. Jedi are light side users. This means it's a power he normally doesn't use, but it doesn't mean it doesn't showcase his abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So really, how is Anakin a tier or two above Windu? Because I'm not seeing it so far.
I ****ing hate Anakin but he's so underrated on this board it's ridiculous. Collapsing a thirty meter tall/ninety meter wide hall is the best PT power feat bar Sidious/Yoda. His strength feats are the best besides perhaps Sidious. His speed feats are the best besides Sidious/Yoda. His skills are on roughly Dooku's level. His vast Force energies allow him to keep him going. So please, don't come with your BS. Mace has trouble moving a tank. Anakin collapses something far bigger with less struggle.

There's no way Sidious would speed blitz Windu or Skywalker in Sabers when Gillard has put them both in the same league as Sidious and Yoda.

I realize Gillard may not be a completely canon source, but he did have discussions with Lucas before making the levels. So if we're to believe Sidious would Saber blitz Anakin/Mace then either Gillard completely ignored Lucas when making his levels, or he was simply high when he made them.

Skywalker can't compete with Sidious because he would simply get Force stomped the same way Maul/Opress got force stomped.. Mace is weaker than Sidious in the Force but he's powerful enough not to simply get Force stomped any second that Sidious decides to Force stomp.

What has skill to do with speed?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Cmon lol. In the third scan it's easy to see.

It's Anakin's only appearance where I like him.

lol
Scream is a dark side power. Jedi are light side users. This means it's a power he normally doesn't use, but it doesn't mean it doesn't showcase his abilities.

I'm seriously not seeing it. What on earth makes you think its going faster?

Meh.

Omg, how are you not understanding this? Anakin is more powerful than he normally is when he draws on his rage and hate. He normally does not do this. It doesn't showcase his abilities because he can't do it normally, nor is he normally that powerful.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I ****ing hate Anakin but he's so underrated on this board it's ridiculous. Collapsing a thirty meter tall/ninety meter wide hall is the best PT power feat bar Sidious/Yoda. His strength feats are the best besides perhaps Sidious. His speed feats are the best besides Sidious/Yoda. His skills are on roughly Dooku's level. His vast Force energies allow him to keep him going. So please, don't come with your BS. Mace has trouble moving a tank. Anakin collapses something far bigger with less struggle.

It isn't, Dooku has superior feats and Windu is equal to Dooku. Plus Anakin only achieved that feat through an involuntary burst of rage. Savage is stronger than him. Windu is faster than him. Winsu is more skilled than him. He's crappy at drawing on his power. Anakin has trouble fighting Savage Opress, Ventress, Barriss Offee and others. He is not as awesome as you are making him out to be.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm seriously not seeing it. What on earth makes you think its going faster?
Third scan, second panel or whatever it's called.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Omg, how are you not understanding this? Anakin is more powerful than he normally is when he draws on his rage and hate. He normally does not do this. It doesn't showcase his abilities because he can't do it normally, nor is he normally that powerful.
Scream is an involuntary power, so he didn't ''draw on his rage and hate'' to amplify his power. It just happened. And besides, Anakin is always mad.


Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't, Dooku has superior feats
Lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu is equal to Dooku.
In power? Lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus Anakin only achieved that feat through an involuntary burst of rage.
And still did it with ease. So by that logic, he would still be doing it with mid-trouble. Also, Anakin usually has a harder time performing on a high level when he is really mad because his emotions hinder him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage is stronger than him.
Nope.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu is faster than him.
What? Windu's speed is about equal to Obi-Wan or Maul, below Anakin's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Winsu is more skilled than him.
That might or might not be true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's crappy at drawing on his power.
I actually meant his Force reserves so he can fight for a long time without tiring.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin has trouble fighting Savage Opress, Ventress, Barriss Offee and others.
Is this a joke? Mace only fought Ventress evenly, only fought Bulq evenly, only fought Grievous evenly while Grievous' movement was restricted, only fought Saesee Tiin evenly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He is not as awesome as you are making him out to be.
I wish.

@Nephthys
Dooku has superior feats to regular Anakin. If we'll compare him to Anakin, who is using the dark side, then they are more like equal (Dooku has greater knowledge, and Anakin has greater raw power).
Mace is equal to Dooku as swordmaster, not force user. In the force Dooku is above Windu.
Regular Anakin has a trobule fighting those people. Anakin who is using his anger, is far above them. He defeated Asajj with the force at least twice. It looks like Mace was unable to do that, and Ventress was able to run from him after a short lighstaber duel.

Anakin outright stomped Ventress in Republic.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What has skill to do with speed?

He was obviously talking about overall prowess, not just technical skill. If Sidious could speed blitz Mace/Anakin, then they wouldn't be on the same Saber level as Sids. End of.


Originally posted by Intrepid37

What? Windu's speed is about equal to Obi-Wan or Maul, below Anakin's.

Urm no.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
Is this a joke? Mace only fought Ventress evenly, only fought Bulq evenly, only fought Grievous evenly while Grievous' movement was restricted, only fought Saesee Tiin evenly.




No no no.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was obviously talking about overall prowess,
Prove it.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm no.

Yes.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No no no.
Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

.

Are you kidding me? He said you can jump from an 8 to a 9 by embracing the added power of the dark side. Common sense tells us that technical skill will not increase by changing sides.

You haven't proven that he was talking about overall prowess. You also haven't proven that Mace is faster than Obi-Wan or Maul

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You haven't proven that he was talking about overall prowess. You also haven't proven that Mace is faster than Obi-Wan or Maul

How are Maul and Kenobi on par with Mace in speed if the latter can compete with Sidious in lightsaber combat?

He can't.

Mace: Formed webs, fought invisibly fast, fought faster than thought, fought faster than Vastor.

Kenobi: Formed shields, fought invisibly fast, ran in a blur, fought faster than Qui-Gon.

Maul: Formed webs/shields, ran invisibly fast, ran in a blur, fought faster than Qui-Gon.

Anakin: Encased himself in light, appear in several places at once, outran speeders, filled Dooku's entire line of sight with a blurring haze.

Anakin's just better.

The RotS novel just says that Anakin is the fastest Jedi of his generation. Neither Windu or Yoda are in his generation.

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest.

I'm not sure about your interpretation of this.

Its saying he's the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of his generation. Unless you think its talking about Anakin being the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of any generation in which case.... no.

Theres a reason Yoda and Windu can challenge Sidious and Anakin can't. Theres also numerous Jedi I would place before Anakin. He's not even in the top 10.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Third scan, second panel or whatever it's called.

I'm not seeing anything. I think you might be thinking that because its on fire and bits are breaking off, but thats just because its getting closer to the sun. You can see it start to enter the suns "atmosphere" on the second page.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Scream is an involuntary power, so he didn't ''draw on his rage and hate'' to amplify his power. It just happened. And besides, Anakin is always mad.



No, he did draw on his hate and rage. You said that the power draws on hate and rage. Just because its involuntary doesn't mean it wouldn't be boosted involuntarily. And Anakin IS always mad, but he's always suppressing those feelings, making him very conflicted in fights.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lol.

Dooku's owned Ventress with a finger (not like that, you dirty boy). He ripped a huge metal structure out of a wall. He lifted about a hundred tons of rock quite easily. He's consistently shown that he's better than Anakin in Force abilities.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In power? Lol.

I'm not seeing anything suggesting otherwise.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And still did it with ease. So by that logic, he would still be doing it with mid-trouble. Also, Anakin usually has a harder time performing on a high level when he is really mad because his emotions hinder him.

Your not taking into account that Anakin was tapping into his hate and rage. We've seen him get huge boosts by that, like how he went from losing to Ventress to stomping her, or how he stomped Dooku in RotS.

I'm writing this feat off almost entirely now.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nope.

Lol, Savage pushed Obi-Wan and Anakin back at the same time with his strikes. He smacked Dooku across the room and disarmed him with one hit. Anakin and Obi-Wan tried to wrestle him into submission at the same time and failed to make him even budge.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What? Windu's speed is about equal to Obi-Wan or Maul, below Anakin's.

Lawl.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That might or might not be true.

Pfft, Windu created his own lightsaber style. His technical mastery is well above Anakins. I believe the best accolade for Anakins lightsaber skill is Dooku commenting that his Djem So is as good as anyones he'd seen. Hardly Windu level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I actually meant his Force reserves so he can fight for a long time without tiring.

Hasn't he gotten tired in many fights in the Clone Wars?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Is this a joke? Mace only fought Ventress evenly, only fought Bulq evenly, only fought Grievous evenly while Grievous' movement was restricted, only fought Saesee Tiin evenly.

Ventress ran away, he beat Bulq, he beat Grievous and I don't know about the Tiin one but lmfao at that.

^

Its saying he's the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of his generation.

I disagree. It saying, that he's the most powerful jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. Besides that, he is strongest and fastest jedi. It doesn't mean, that he's most powerful.

Theres a reason Yoda and Windu can challenge Sidious and Anakin can't.

Yoda and Mace can just compete with Sidious. Anakin on the other hand:
If Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor.

Pfft, Windu created his own lightsaber style. His technical mastery is well above Anakins. I believe the best accolade for Anakins lightsaber skill is Dooku commenting that his Djem So is as good as anyones he'd seen. Hardly Windu level.

Well, according to Lucas and Gillard Anakin was in the same league with Mace in terms of lightsaber combat.

(...) he beat Bulq,

Depends of the interpretation. It looks like Sora wasn't unconscious after Mace's push - just before Windu left this place when they fought, he said to Bulq, that he was right, and real fight wasn't there. I doubt, that he would talk to unconscious guy.
So, in my opinion, it's mistake to assume that Bulq was beaten.

Originally posted by Zett
^

Its saying he's the most powerful, fastest and strongest Jedi of his generation.

I disagree. It saying, that he's the most powerful jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. Besides that, he is strongest and fastest jedi. It doesn't mean, that he's most powerful.

You don't say. The "perhaps" isn't convincing in the slightest. Yoda is demonstrably stronger and faster than Anakin. And he and others are demonstrably more powerful than him, not accounting for Anakins potential. The truth is that Anakin is none of those things. Its just Stover wanking people like he always does.

Even if you take this quote as accurate, Stover contradicts it later by calling Yoda the most devastatingly powerful foe of darkness ever.

Originally posted by Zett
Theres a reason Yoda and Windu can challenge Sidious and Anakin can't.

Yoda and Mace can just compete with Sidious. Anakin on the other hand:

If Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor.

Thats ambiguous as to whether Lucas was talking about Anakin as of RotS or some time in the future. And he's obviously talking about the latter. Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan, you seriously think he has a chance vs Sidious?

Originally posted by Zett
Pfft, Windu created his own lightsaber style. His technical mastery is well above Anakins. I believe the best accolade for Anakins lightsaber skill is Dooku commenting that his Djem So is as good as anyones he'd seen. Hardly Windu level.

Well, according to Lucas and Gillard Anakin was in the same league with Mace in terms of lightsaber combat.

I believe he only said that in regards to Anakin receiving a dark side boost.

Originally posted by Zett
(...) he beat Bulq,

Depends of the interpretation. It looks like Sora wasn't unconscious after Mace's push - just before Windu left this place when they fought, he said to Bulq, that he was right, and real fight wasn't there. I doubt, that he would talk to unconscious guy.
So, in my opinion, it's mistake to assume that Bulq was beaten.

Meh.

Well, Stover doesn't contradicts his own words. In his first quote he used "perhaps". But finally, he declarated Yoda as the most powerful Jedi. So Anakin was just strongest, fastest Jedi, and the most powerful Jedi of his generation.

Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan(...)

Yeah, that's true. But I'm a fan of theory, that Anakin wasn't as strong on Mustafar as he was on IH or Jedi Temple. And it's not because of his skill, but because of his state of mind.

Regular Anakin was just a bit above Obi-Wan's level. But Anakin, who was using his ark side, was far above Kenobi. He was able to easily kill Count Dooku (the same Count was equal to Windu). Even Yoda was unable to do that (I mean, he was able to beat Count, but not as easily as Anakin).

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not seeing anything. I think you might be thinking that because its on fire and bits are breaking off, but thats just because its getting closer to the sun. You can see it start to enter the suns "atmosphere" on the second page.
Before he alters its direction, it's going very slow. After that, it flies very fast, which means he must've pushed it.


Originally posted by Nephthys
And Anakin IS always mad, but he's always suppressing those feelings, making him very conflicted in fights.
But when he unleashes it, he's extremely powerful.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku's owned Ventress with a finger (not like that, you dirty boy). He ripped a huge metal structure out of a wall. He lifted about a hundred tons of rock quite easily. He's consistently shown that he's better than Anakin in Force abilities.
Anakin has also outright stomped Ventress with TK, has ripped apart droids, tipped a platform over 40 meter in length with incredible mass, collapsed a thirty meter tall tower. Dooku doesn't have power on this level.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not seeing anything suggesting otherwise.
So now Mace is more powerful than Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your not taking into account that Anakin was tapping into his hate and rage. We've seen him get huge boosts by that, like how he went from losing to Ventress to stomping her, or how he stomped Dooku in RotS.

I'm writing this feat off almost entirely now.
He still did it with ease. We can bump it up to mid-difficulty if we consider his apparant rage boost... it'd still be vastly better than what Mace has shown.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage pushed Obi-Wan
Then failed to overpower his one arm when he and Maul fought him.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Lawl.
If you disagree, prove otherwise.


Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe the best accolade for Anakins lightsaber skill is Dooku commenting that his Djem So is as good as anyones he'd seen.
I believe the best is him consistently stalemating Dooku.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Hasn't he gotten tired in many fights in the Clone Wars?
Don't know.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress ran away,
So? Hardly conclusive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
he beat Bulq,




Originally posted by Nephthys
he beat Grievous
With BFR, not skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You haven't proven that he was talking about overall prowess. You also haven't proven that Mace is faster than Obi-Wan or Maul

I've proven he was clearly talking about more than just skill. It's quite apparent what his levels were about. If you want to suggest he meant something completely different now, then it's up to you to prove that without using EU stuff, because Gillard doesn't give 2 squats about the EU.

Originally posted by Nephthys




Thats ambiguous as to whether Lucas was talking about Anakin as of RotS or some time in the future. And he's obviously talking about the latter.

It's really not that obvious. How long in the future is he talking? He's not made that clear at all.



Originally posted by Nephthys

Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan, you seriously think he has a chance vs Sidious?





By that argument Anakin shouldn't have stood a chance against Dooku either.


I personally think Anakin would get TK Stomped by Sidious. But he wouldn't get stomped in Sabers. Not at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've proven he was clearly talking about more than just skill.
Where

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Where


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He said you can jump from an 8 to a 9 by embracing the added power of the dark side. Common sense tells us that technical skill will not increase by changing sides.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You haven't proven that he was talking about overall prowess. You also haven't proven that Mace is faster than Obi-Wan or Maul

Dozens of blows per second, and even Anakin could not follow his movements in his duel with Sidious. Granted Skywalker is in a shitty state of mind, but its not a stretch to say Mace is faster than Anakin.

Because he was amped. He never moved too fast for anyone like Tiin or Bulq to see. Also, DP, sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because he was amped. He never moved too fast for anyone like Tiin or Bulq to see. Also, DP, sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

1. He owned Bulq.
2. Bulq is one of the most skilled duelists in the Order's 20,000 year history and mastered all 7 forms.
3. Tiin is also one of the most skilled duelists in history.
4. Prove Mace was going all out against either of them. Jedi restraint is a huge part of Mace's philosophy.

1. Did you even read their fight? Their fight was inconclusive. They clash blades, Bulq hurls Mace, they clash blades, Mace hurls Bulq, Mace runs away.

2. So?

3. So?

4. Your point has no basis. Never has it been stated nor even implied he didn't give his all against them. Prove he held back or stop spreading your baseless speculation.

Dooku takes it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1. He owned Bulq.

Whaaaat? He even didn't beat him. This fight was pretty equal, and even if Mace would win at the end, it would be far from "own". Just Mace's victory at best.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dozens of blows per second, and even Anakin could not follow his movements in his duel with Sidious. Granted Skywalker is in a shitty state of mind, but its not a stretch to say Mace is faster than Anakin.

No, it's not. Grievous was fast enough, to strikes with 20 blows per second, and Kenobi was able to block or dodge all of them. Do you think, that Anakin or Obi-Wan were able to see every single of Greivous's blows? I don't think so. Not by their eyes at least. But with the force's aid - yeah.
Anyway, it's all from Stover's novel. in the same novel, he confirms, that Anakin is the fastest jedi.

And if we wants to rely on the movie, well, Anakin was faster during his duel with Kenobi, then Mace was during his duel with Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Also, DP, sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.


He was obviously referring to more than just technical skill with his levels, since he said someone can potentially jump up from a level 8 to a level 9 by embracing the greater power of the Dark Side.

So his levels seem to refer to overall Saber Prowess.

Getting better because you're embracing the dark side doesn't even make sense. Dooku was equal with Mace as a Jedi but also as a Sith.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The hell are you talking about? He's above ROTS Kenobi, just his simple comments can make you see that. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine." AND "You can't win, Darth." Obi-Wan isn't one to over-exaggerate. The first only occurs after he dies and becomes one with the Force and is irrelevant.

The latter is in the long-term sense.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Getting better because you're embracing the dark side doesn't even make sense. Dooku was equal with Mace as a Jedi but also as a Sith.


Yoda outright tells Dooku in AOTC: "Powerful you have become Dooku, the Dark Side I sense in you." Plus the ROTS Novel says something like Dooku was an even more powerful Sith Lord than he was a Jedi. So there's no doubt Dooku grew more powerful after embracing the Dark Side.

But Mace also grew more powerful over the years. In fact we know he's improved after the events of Shatterpoint during the Clone Wars.

But all in all I think getting a boost from the Dark Side is likely a "potential" boost and probably not a "guaranteed" one.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. Did you even read their fight? Their fight was inconclusive. They clash blades, Bulq hurls Mace, they clash blades, Mace hurls Bulq, Mace runs away.

2. So?

3. So?

4. Your point has no basis. Never has it been stated nor even implied he didn't give his all against them. Prove he held back or stop spreading your baseless speculation.

1. It ends with Bulq on his ass. Mace won easily once he put any effort in.

2. So they aren't jokes.

4. It does have basis dumbass. Someone who is able to fight on par with Darth Sidious and Dooku isn't going to have trouble with Sora Bulq and Tiin.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Getting better because you're embracing the dark side doesn't even make sense. Dooku was equal with Mace as a Jedi but also as a Sith.

Dooku wasn't equal with Mace as a Jedi. He was superior. Its stated Dooku defeated Mace in sparring matches, never the other way around. And yes he did grow more powerful.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1. It ends with Bulq on his ass.
Because Mace ran, and the comic was focusing on him. We never saw what happened with Bulq. The duel was inconclusive.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
2. So they aren't jokes.
Your point has absolutely nothing to do with your stupid idea that Mace can fight faster than Anakin can see when Jedi inferior to Anakin in speed can.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
4. It does have basis dumbass.
Not really.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Someone who is able to fight on par with Darth Sidious
In a fight where Mace gained a enormous speed boost because of the increased darkness within him which he amped himself with thanks to the effects of Vaapad.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
and Dooku
Who, at best, is equal to Jedi in speed who, per Lucas, can't even compete with Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
isn't going to have trouble with Sora Bulq and Tiin.

I would like to remind everyone that in the film, Anakin didn't even enter the chamber room until after Mace had already disarmed Palps and knocked him to the ground-- he never "saw" any portion of their battle beforehand. ie. the part of the novelization in which Anakin enters the chamber before Palps is disarmed, and watches he and Mace fight at 'blur-esque' speeds for a fairly lengthy duration of time, is 100% non-canon.

That is all.

I would also like to point that in the movie, Mace doesn't even react/do anything to help Tiin and Kolar until Sidious engages him in combat.

Originally posted by Galan007
I would like to remind everyone that in the film, Anakin didn't even enter the chamber room until after Mace had already disarmed Palps and knocked him to the ground-- he never "saw" any portion of their battle beforehand. ie. the part of the novelization in which Anakin enters the chamber before Palps is disarmed, and watches he and Mace fight at 'blur-esque' speeds for a fairly lengthy duration of time, is 100% non-canon.

That is all.

^Also, Neph, I need some help regarding info on TOR. Can I PM you?

Sure.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I would also like to point that in the movie, Mace doesn't even react/do anything to help Tiin and Kolar until Sidious engages him in combat.


Not entirely true. Mace moves back into a guard position when Palpatine makes his move, so he wasn't exactly in the best position to defend them. And let's face it, it wasn't his job to defend them. It was their job to aid Mace in battling Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because Mace ran, and the comic was focusing on him. We never saw what happened with Bulq. The duel was inconclusive.

Bulq was KO'd and failed in his objective of detaining Windu.




That's pretty stupid A>B>C logic. I guess because Barriss Offee fought on par with Anakin, she must be faster than Mace as well.

Mace has far more consistent feats than Skywalker does.










Dooku dueled on par with the two Jedi who disarmed Sidious so that's a stupid argument.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Bulq was KO'd
Except we never saw what happened with Bulq.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
and failed in his objective of detaining Windu.
LOL. Tyranus failed in his objective to kill Obi-Wan. So what? Besides, Mace failed to capture Bulq.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's pretty stupid A>B>C logic.
I'm not making an argument, I'm pointing flaws in yours.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I guess because Barriss Offee fought on par with Anakin, she must be faster than Mace as well.
I honestly have no idea from where this red herring came.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Mace has far more consistent feats than Skywalker does.
LOL. The only person Mace has beaten on pure skill is presumably Dooku when they sparred. He beat Grievous by BFR, Bulq by Force pushing him (not even a victory), stalemated Tyranus countless times, fought evenly with Tiin without a winner, beat Sidious by exploiting his shatterpoint, drove off Ventress with no conclusive winner, beat Quinlan because Quinlan had no knowledge of Vaapad (IIRC). He lost to Vastor as well.

Anakin is faster than Mace as well. He has better running speed, reaction speed and combat speed. In fact, Obi-Wan has better reaction speed than Mace and equal combat speed. Maul has better running speed, better perception speed and equal combat speed. Luke in the Rebellion era has better running speed, better perception speed and equal combat speed. Kit Fisto has equally good combat speed.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dooku dueled on par with the two Jedi who disarmed Sidious so that's a stupid argument.
And Sidious dueled on par with Yoda who has beaten Mace's equal on a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Except we never saw what happened with Bulq.

Uh no. The Wookiepedia thinks differently and I am inclined to believe it over you.
" When Bulq and Windu sensed this in the Force, Bulq taunted Windu that, with their deaths, he could not possibly win. Windu agreed, blasting Bulq into a pile of rubble and rendering him unconscious, then rushing to the other Jedi, where he forced Ventress to flee.

Bulq awakened and sought out Windu, but he and the other Jedi had fled under attack from Bulq's service droids. His plan had been foiled. Jeisel and K'Kruhk survived and returned to the Jedi fold, completely nullifying any chance of schism. Bulq's fall to the dark side and defection to Dooku were also revealed to no gain. With his potential as a prestigious double agent foiled, Bulq was returned to more overt service for the Confederacy."




No he didn't. He could have captured him but then his companions would have been slaughtered by Ventress.



No you are making an argument that Skywalker>Windu.



Not a red herring. You are arguing against Mace, I am arguing against Anakin. Saying Mace is slower than Anakin because he didn't blitz XYZ is the same as saying Anakin is slower than Mace because he failed to blitz a Padawan



He never beat Dooku. And bullshit he didn't know about Vaapad. Its blatantly stated in source books that the only ones

Anakin is faster than Mace as well. He has better running speed, reaction speed and combat speed. In fact, Obi-Wan has better reaction speed than Mace and equal combat speed. Maul has better running speed, better perception speed and equal combat speed. Luke in the Rebellion era has better running speed, better perception speed and equal combat speed. Kit Fisto has equally good combat speed.





They stalemated. Let's not embellish here.

@Lord Stark

Relaying on wookie is a stupid idea, since there is a lot of people on this forum (DP, or you for example) who could write much better articles.
For example: you - as I remember - were the one that said, that Stover's version of Dooku's duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan was BS. Maybe I'm wrong. But if i'm not, then I have to tell you, that I agree with you.

People from wookie... not exactly. Many of articles have a lot of writter's interpretation. This one with Bulq for example. Or Dooku's and Mace's duel from Boz Pity - as I remember, they writed that Mace overhelmed the Count. And it's clear, that he didn't.

We never saw Bulq unconscious. And the fact, that Mace is still talking to him after that push may suggest, that Bulq was conscious.

I bet, this Mace's push on Bulq was very similar to Maul's push on Kenobi (during their duel in season 5). It's my interpretation, but I consider it as much better then people's from wookie.

It's anyway hard to assume, that Mace had an clear advantage over Bulq. He had not. Bulq also was able to catch him off-guard with his own force push. And their saber duel was pretty equal (unlike Dooku's duel with Bulq). I didn't say, that Mace was below Dooku because of that. Mace and Bulq knew themselves very well (or perfectly - as a fighters). Maybe it was the reason.


@Intrepid37

Mace has beaten Dooku? Where?


Anyway, I agree that Anakin (regular) was faster, but Windu was more skilled. Overall Windu was better. But Anakin (zone) was far above Windu.

Originally posted by Zett
@Lord Stark

Relaying on wookie is a stupid idea, since there is a lot of people on this forum (DP, or you for example) who could write much better articles.
For example: you - as I remember - were the one that said, that Stover's version of Dooku's duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan was BS. Maybe I'm wrong. But if i'm not, then I have to tell you, that I agree with you.

I only rely on Wookiepedia when I don't have the source material handy. Intrepid is pulling shit out of his ass with no direct source material.


That is true.


Hardly. Someone post the link the comics. And no he got blasted into a pile of stones. And if there's a scene of him waking up it proves my point even further.



It doesn't matter. Its stated in several sources the only people in the Order who could duel Mace as an Equal were Dooku and Yoda. PERIOD. Bulq was a part of that Jedi Order.

Speed wise:
Zoneakin>>Dooku>Mace>Anakin (regular)

Strength wise:
Zoneakin>>Anakin>Mace>Dooku

Skill Wise:
Dooku>Mace>Zoneakin=Anakin

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh no. The Wookiepedia thinks differently and I am inclined to believe it over you.
" When Bulq and Windu sensed this in the Force, Bulq taunted Windu that, with their deaths, he could not possibly win. Windu agreed, blasting Bulq into a pile of rubble and rendering him unconscious, then rushing to the other Jedi, where he forced Ventress to flee.

Bulq awakened and sought out Windu, but he and the other Jedi had fled under attack from Bulq's service droids. His plan had been foiled. Jeisel and K'Kruhk survived and returned to the Jedi fold, completely nullifying any chance of schism. Bulq's fall to the dark side and defection to Dooku were also revealed to no gain. With his potential as a prestigious double agent foiled, Bulq was returned to more overt service for the Confederacy."
Did you even read the source? I really don't want to waste time on educating you.




Originally posted by Lord Stark
No he didn't. He could have captured him but then his companions would have been slaughtered by Ventress.
What does Ventress have to do with anything?


Originally posted by Lord Stark
No you are making an argument that Skywalker>Windu.
I'm telling you that your logic for Mace being faster is asinine.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not a red herring. You are arguing against Mace, I am arguing against Anakin. Saying Mace is slower than Anakin because he didn't blitz XYZ is the same as saying Anakin is slower than Mace because he failed to blitz a Padawan
Another red herring. I never said Mace is slower than Anakin because he hasn't blitzed anyone. In fact, neither has Anakin. I'm telling you this:




Which is why I said ''presumably''.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And bullshit he didn't know about Vaapad. Its blatantly stated in source books that the only ones
I have no idea what you're on about.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
They stalemated. Let's not embellish here.
Again, what? Sidious fought evenly with someone factually superior to Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Did you even read the source? I really don't want to waste time on educating you.

I've read it. I remember him being KO'd. So post scans or shut the **** up.




Did you read the source?




Its not asinine you benighted whelp. They are both in the same league.



http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100323154256/starwars/images/7/74/MaceForceSpeed.jpg

When has Skywalker ever demonstrated the raw speed Windu has. Not only in his duel with Sidious, but also in destroying a battle droid army with his bare hands, single handedly.



A>B>C logic doesn't work.

Mace Sidious is like a 65:35 in Sidious' favor. We saw one of the 35/100 times Mace won. Its not always a case of Sidious is stronger so he'll win everytime.

Also LOL at Fisto having equal speed to Mace. Give me a break the guy got lol blitzed by Ventress.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I've read it. I remember him being KO'd. So post scans or shut the **** up.
Your memory serves you horribly.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454119-mace_sora_1_zps0b3f1563.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454120-mace_sora_2_zps991fae6f.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454121-mace_sora_3_zps67c89481.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454122-mace_sora_4_zpsfcc6c835.jpg


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Did you read the source?
You brought up the fact that Bulq failing to complete his objective is in any way related to do the fight he put up. Tyranus failed to kill Obi-Wan in RotS as well, despite it being his intention.




Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its not asinine you benighted whelp. They are both in the same league.
LOL. They are in the same league? By your own admission Mace can't even compete with Sidious since Anakin can't.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
A>B>C logic doesn't work.
Good to know that Mace's defeat of Sidious has absolutely no relevance to any of his other duels then.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Give me a break the guy got lol blitzed by Ventress.
Not like Mace did any better.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
When has Skywalker ever demonstrated the raw speed Windu has.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Also LOL at Fisto having equal speed to Mace.
Nice appeals to ignorance. I maintain what I said.

Mace's best combat speed showing is weaving a web out of his lightsaber.



Good feat. But are you aware that Obi-Wan as far back as TPM has practically done the same when he created a barrier, and per Lucas, he can't even compete with Sidious?



Tiin did it also. He got blitzed by Sidious.

If you pay attention to the quote, Qui-Gon did it also. Are you aware that Obi-Wan is faster than Qui-Gon also?



Are you aware that Maul has done exactly the same, is faster than Qui-Gon who has done exactly the same, and was unable to even see Sidious?







For Fisto, he whirled his lightsaber so fast that the haze surrounding it resembled a cyclone.




Mace spun a web of light about him. Anakin nearly encased himself in light.



Anakin created a blurring haze big enough to cover Dooku's entire line of sight, which was the whole room they were fighting in, showing the huge size of the haze.




So kindly tell me how Mace is faster than any of those characters I mentioned.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Your memory serves you horribly.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454119-mace_sora_1_zps0b3f1563.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454120-mace_sora_2_zps991fae6f.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454121-mace_sora_3_zps67c89481.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Mace%20Windu/2454122-mace_sora_4_zpsfcc6c835.jpg

No it doesn't. You're a moron. Bulq's plan is to kill Windu and tell a tale to get more Jedi to defect.

Also
"You can no more withstand me than the others can resist my companion Asajj Ventress"
His plan is also to have Ventress kill the other Jedi he arrived with. They both admit the true battle is not there. Mace then pwns Sora Bulq. You want proof? Bulq's lightsabers even deactivate; something that typically only happens when the person is unconscious. The duel wasn't a draw. Mace won.

Also its ****ing stated in canon that the only people who could duel on par with Mace were Dooku and Yoda.




Red herring. Different scenarios entirely.




Since when did I say Anakin can't? What part of Anakin was in a shit mental state when he couldn't see the two of then didn't you understand.



No it does. Being able to defeat Sidious any amount of times is significant.



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3462162-mace+ventress+2.jpg

Yes, yes he did.






Then you need to re-watch the Battle of Dantooine.



No his best speed feat is dodging blasterbolts midair and manhandling an army. Not to mention dueling Darth Sidious.




Jesus Christ, does the word artistic liberties mean anything to you? Your argument is so shaky it might as well have been in Katrina.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it doesn't. You're a moron. Bulq's plan is to kill Windu and tell a tale to get more Jedi to defect.

Also
"You can no more withstand me than the others can resist my companion Asajj Ventress"
His plan is also to have Ventress kill the other Jedi he arrived with. They both admit the true battle is not there. Mace then pwns Sora Bulq. You want proof? Bulq's lightsabers even deactivate; something that typically only happens when the person is unconscious. The duel wasn't a draw. Mace won.
Sure thing, bro. If Bulq had ran after he hurled Mace, he'd won as well. As I said, the duel was inconclusive. Mace never gained any advantage by being more skilled.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Also its ****ing stated in canon that the only people who could duel on par with Mace were Dooku and Yoda.
When Dooku was still in the Order, dumbo.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Red herring. Different scenarios entirely.
Dismissing it with no basis is a nice comeback. Concession accepted.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Since when did I say Anakin can't? What part of Anakin was in a shit mental state when he couldn't see the two of then didn't you understand.
Lucas said nothing about exceptions. He makes it clear that ''You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor'', Lucas says. '' In fact, he goes on to say that Anakin could have beaten Sidious if he hadn't suffered injuries.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it does. Being able to defeat Sidious any amount of times is significant.
Because of the mechanics of Vaapad. But let's ignore that.




Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes, yes he did.
No, he didn't They fought evenly, then Ventress runs.





Originally posted by Lord Stark
Then you need to re-watch the Battle of Dantooine.
LOL @ relying on a TV show for speed.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
No his best speed feat is dodging blasterbolts midair
Lol. You say it as if it's something special. Maul easily dodged blaster bolts as teenager. \

Originally posted by Lord Stark
and manhandling an army.
Inconsistent with his other feats.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not to mention dueling Darth Sidious.
Because of the mechanics of Vaapad. But let's ignore that.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Jesus Christ, does the word artistic liberties mean anything to you? Your argument is so shaky it might as well have been in Katrina.
Do you even know how to compare characters and their abilities? We compare their feats. Very simple.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Speed wise:
Zoneakin>>Dooku>Mace>Anakin (regular)

Strength wise:
Zoneakin>>Anakin>Mace>Dooku

Skill Wise:
Dooku>Mace>Zoneakin=Anakin

Looks fine. I'm just not sure about "Skill Wise". "Dooku>=Mace" or "Dooku=Mace" might be better, I think. After all both of them mastered their forms to the highest degree.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Hardly. Someone post the link the comics. And no he got blasted into a pile of stones. And if there's a scene of him waking up it proves my point even further.

There is not scene of Bulq waking up, as I remember. Just last scene, when he's watching as their ship flies away.

I'm not trying to prove, that Bulq was on Mace's level. Because he was not. But somehow, he fought him evenly. Maybe because of Vaapad, or maybe because they knew each other perfectly. Hard to tell.
It looks like they were equal in terms of skill of TK. Mace just had more raw power (which enabled him to take advantage in this fight).

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, he didn't They fought evenly, then Ventress runs.

We all know, that this fight was far from even. Windu just told her, that she's no match for him, she agreed and ran away.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Then you need to re-watch the Battle of Dantooine.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
LOL @ relying on a TV show for speed.

Agree with Intrepid here. In this cartoon characters' feats are highly exaggerated.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It doesn't matter. Its stated in several sources the only people in the Order who could duel Mace as an Equal were Dooku and Yoda. PERIOD. Bulq was a part of that Jedi Order.

Are you sure about that? As I remember Dooku and Yoda were the onlypeople who could outspar him. It's stated on wookie (I guess it's BS since I've never seen that quote) that Qui-Gon could fight Mace equally in a sparing.
The only Jedi that could duel Yoda on equal terms were Mace and Dooku. But I'm not surre, correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Lucas said nothing about exceptions. He makes it clear that ''You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor'', Lucas says. '' In fact, he goes on to say that Anakin could have beaten Sidious if he hadn't suffered injuries.




He never said that relates specifically to Sabers, or Speed or Strength. Looking at how Count Dooku Force stomped Kenobi, and how Palpatine Force stomped Maul and Opress, it's pretty clear Lucas sees competition as being more than just Sabers. The chances are Sidious would effortlessly force stomp Skywalker, therefore he can't compete. That in no way, shape or form means he can't compete in any way whatsoever, or that he specifically can't compete in a Pure Saber match up.

The only indication we may have on Lucas's Saber ratings are the ones Gillard has given us, which put Skywalker and Mace both in the same league as Yoda and Sidious, and appears in the same source as Lucas's competing quote as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He never said that relates specifically to Sabers, or Speed or Strength. Looking at how Count Dooku Force stomped Kenobi, and how Palpatine Force stomped Maul and Opress, it's pretty clear Lucas sees competition as being more than just Sabers. The chances are Sidious would effortlessly force stomp Skywalker, therefore he can't compete. That in no way, shape or form means he can't compete in any way whatsoever, or that he specifically can't compete in a Pure Saber match up.
But the problem is that Mace's Force feats at best are equal to Savage's and Maul's showings individually, not both at the same time. Anakin's Force feats are vastly better than Mace's as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We all know, that this fight was far from even. Windu just told her, that she's no match for him, she agreed and ran away.
Mace's words has no relevance when they do not depict what was shown.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure thing, bro. If Bulq had ran after he hurled Mace, he'd won as well. As I said, the duel was inconclusive. Mace never gained any advantage by being more skilled.

Yes he did.
Bulq TKs; Mace keeps fighting
Mace TKs; Bulq is unconscious.

Mace deals with Bulq with ease and then goes on to **** Ventress' day up as well.



Uhhh no that's also after Dooku left. Read Dark Rendezvous.




No I am dismissing it because Dooku not killing Kenobi has NOTHING to do with Bulq not killing Windu. Why? Because Dooku died, Bulq was still alive.




That isn't helping your argument that Anakin is faster. Maybe you should sit down and think this out.





And because of Shatterpoint. Which are a part of Mace's skillset not some godsend.






You just earlier said Dooku lost to Yoda because he ran. Ventress admitted inferiority and ran even faster than when Dooku ran against Yoda.







Yeah don't give me that double standard nonsense. You cite Anakin's feat of moving that battlestation all the time.




When you are dodging multiple from an army, yes it is special.



Canon. And not inconsistent for the man who disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history.



Lul because Mace having Vaapad is a one time thing. Please.





This is not narutoforums OBD.

Star Wars has a little thing called artistic liberties. Just because one artist draws Anakin swirling a saber around quickly doesn't mean he's faster than Yoda. Comic book artists draw things differently.

Mace swirling his saber around isn't a feat. Him defeating Sidious is.
Also only a moron only uses feats to compare characters, hype and portrayal are equally if not more important.

And yes the quote about Qui-Gon is BS. I have searched high and low and found none of it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Bulq is unconscious.
Except no such thing is shown. If you'd read the relevant source material, you'd have known. The three pages after Mace hurls Bulq focuses on Mace and Ventress. It is the fourth page after that we see Bulq, and he is standing just fine with no injures.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhhh no that's also after Dooku left.
Not true.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Read Dark Rendezvous.
I have a few times. A nice read, but not relevant to this discussion.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
No I am dismissing it because Dooku not killing Kenobi has NOTHING to do with Bulq not killing Windu. Why? Because Dooku died, Bulq was still alive.
LOL. I can refer you to countless examples. Mace failed to kill Sidious. Dooku failed to kill Ventress after fighting her and Savage. Maul failed to kill Obi-Wan in TPM. Learn to tell the difference between victory and superior skill.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
That isn't helping your argument that Anakin is faster. Maybe you should sit down and think this out.
It was never meant to. Are you even paying attention to my posts? You said that Anakin's state of mind was the reason he was unable to see Sidious and Mace move without proof. I direct you to Lucas' statement that Anakin can't compete with Sidious no matter what circumstances since any exceptions aren't noted.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
And because of Shatterpoint. Which are a part of Mace's skillset not some godsend.
A shatterpoint he found only because Anakin was there.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
You just earlier said Dooku lost to Yoda because he ran. Ventress admitted inferiority and ran even faster than when Dooku ran against Yoda.
Nobody is saying Ventress isn't inferior. But it remains that they fought evenly with neither gaining the advantage.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah don't give me that double standard nonsense. You cite Anakin's feat of moving that battlestation all the time.
It seems you can't read.





Citing a media is completely different by the virtue of what is getting cited. Relying on TCW/OCW/movies for speed is as stupid as it gets.



Do you have a link?



If by ''manhandling'' you meant his TK feats on Dantoonie, then yes, it is an inconsistency. Mace failed to move a landslide to save a few civilians in Shatterpoint.



Do you even understand how Vaapad works? Mace channels the darkness within him to a weapon of light. The more darkness within him, the more he can channel/amp himself with. When he fought Sidious, the darkness within him was significantly higher than normal.



No, because Yoda has swirled his saber around quicker than Anakin.




Then Mace has zero feats. Cool.


He did it by swirling his foot. It's not a feat, as you said.


Sure.


Rofl.


Wtf are you talking about?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Except no such thing is shown. If you'd read the relevant source material, you'd have known. The three pages after Mace hurls Bulq focuses on Mace and Ventress. It is the fourth page after that we see Bulq, and he is standing just fine with no injures.

He was still KO'd otherwise his sabers wouldn't have been deactivated.




Yes it is. Read Dark Rendezvous.
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground"



What is relevant to this discussion? You aren't arguing anything except for really bad circular logic. You are arguing Anakin is faster than Mace, then arguing that Anakin can't compete with Sidious.




No matter how many red herrings you throw into this debate it won't change the fact that they don't help your argument. None of those have to do with Sora Bulq losing to Mace Windu. It took him an entire fight with Ventress to regain consciousness.


Uhh yeah he was bordering on consciousness *minutes* before the duel. Do you seriously think that had nothing to do with it?




You are missing the point.




They were not fighting evenly. Windu cornered her onto a cliff in seconds.





Lol trying to justify a double standard. If you are going to use it for one showing you can't downplay it because it hurts your argument in another.




Go on youtube. The clips are there.




And Yoda struggled to lift a crane in AOTC. We all know that's not the limit for the most powerful Jedi.




Prove this.




Do you have any idea how retarded that sounds? And also scans for this.





I don't know what your personal vendetta against Windu is but it ends here and now. The man has been confirmed by multiple sources to be one of the top 3 of the PT Jedi Order. The others being Dooku and Yoda. Now Anakin rivals these individuals and when the circumstances present themselves (in teh zone) he can even surpass the bottom 2. That does not automatically mean Anakin is faster than Mace and Dooku no matter the time and place.

Also. Your argument style is quite honestly pathetic. You've bashed me for using the Clone Wars, when you yourself have used it to shamelessly wank Skywalker in other threads. You think a character feat involves twirling a lightsaber around. You take source material and ignore certain aspects for your own benefit. And worst of all you dismiss Mace's defeat of Palpatine under the "lol Vaapad" argument without even understanding how it works. So when you get Anakin's pretty boy cock from betwixt your lips message me and I'll debate you. Otherwise change your username to Padme Amidala. At least then your wank of Anakin would be justified by some legal measure.

Merry Christmas Padme. Your rebuttal will probably not be responded to.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But the problem is that Mace's Force feats at best are equal to Savage's and Maul's showings individually, not both at the same time. Anakin's Force feats are vastly better than Mace's as well.

He has better force feats than Maul/Savage. What Savage displayed in a huge fit of rage in the episode "Witches of the Mist" when he floored 3 Destroyer droids, several battle droids and 2 Jedi in one force wave, was his best feat. And considering it was in a fit if rage suggests it was a one off.

Whilst on Ryloth- Mace in a more focused force blast completely crushed 2 destroyer droids and several other droids. Highlight on the completely crushed, and not just flooring them like Opress did. So you can bet most Jedi in the path of that force wave that would be floored to say the least. And that was just Mace displaying his normal power, meaning he could do that any time.

Also not getting instantly force owned by Sidious and us being told by Lucas that Mace can compete with Sidious, is all the proof we need that Mace's force powers are above Maul and Opress (individually at least).


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace's words has no relevance when they do not depict what was shown.

It was Ventress's own admission as well, and the fact that she ran because she knew she was no match for him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He was still KO'd otherwise his sabers wouldn't have been deactivated.




No, not necessarily. Skywalker's saber was deactivated when he took a massive force attack from Dooku, but he was still concious and able to fight.

Similarly Kenobi and Skywalker's Sabers were deactivated after taking a force blast from from Opress but they were not knocked out and still fully capable of carrying on the fight. Kenobi's sabers were also deactiavted after Maul force pinned him, but he was still able to reactivate them in time to block the attacks of Maul/Opress and chop Opress's arm off.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Similarly Kenobi and Skywalker's Sabers were deactivated after taking a force blast from from Opress but they were not knocked out and still fully capable of carrying on the fight. Kenobi's sabers were also deactiavted after Maul force pinned him, but he was still able to reactivate them in time to block the attacks of Maul/Opress and chop Opress's arm off.

True, but the artist had specifically just shown Mace's saber active right after a force push. Also the fact that Bulq did not pursue shows he was KO'd. He had just stated the main battle was not where they were fighting. By letting Mace go deal with Ventress he was failing his objective. And not killing Mace was also a failure as he now knew his double identity. Bulq lost. If he didn't he would have pursued Mace.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He was still KO'd otherwise his sabers wouldn't have been deactivated.
What POWER said. Nothing shows that Bulq was out of the fight.




Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes it is. Read Dark Rendezvous.
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground"
Lmao. First off, this is Yoda's opinion. Second, the ''perhaps'' leaves it open for others. Third, Bulq doesn't have to be Mace's equal to challenge him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You are arguing Anakin is faster than Mace, then arguing that Anakin can't compete with Sidious.
It seems you got it, so why is it that pretty much none of your points address mine?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It took him an entire fight with Ventress to regain consciousness.
No, it took the entire fight with Ventress before we saw Bulq.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhh yeah he was bordering on consciousness *minutes* before the duel. Do you seriously think that had nothing to do with it?
Anakin can't compete with Sidious no matter what.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
You are missing the point.
I'm missing something that doesn't exist?



Originally posted by Lord Stark
They were not fighting evenly. Windu cornered her onto a cliff in seconds.
Sure they were. You forgot to post the scan prior to the one where they clashed blades. And she wasn't cornered.




Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol trying to justify a double standard. If you are going to use it for one showing you can't downplay it because it hurts your argument in another.
I can. Relying on TV shows for speed is retarded. Otherwise, Obi-Wan and Maul are not even faster than regular human since they never fought faster than Vizsla.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Go on youtube. The clips are there.
No, you provide the basis for whatever you're arguing.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
And Yoda struggled to lift a crane in AOTC. We all know that's not the limit for the most powerful Jedi.
That's the stylistic difference between movie and EU.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Prove this.




Originally posted by Lord Stark
Do you have any idea how retarded that sounds?
Of course logic is retarded for retards.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And also scans for this.




Originally posted by Lord Stark
The man has been confirmed by multiple sources to be one of the top 3 of the PT Jedi Order. The others being Dooku and Yoda.
Yep. So what? Anakin was one of the top 3 of the PT Jedi Order when Dooku left.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That does not automatically mean Anakin is faster than Mace and Dooku no matter the time and place.
Never even said this. Keep addressing points that I have never made.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Also. Your argument style is quite honestly pathetic. You've bashed me for using the Clone Wars, when you yourself have used it to shamelessly wank Skywalker in other threads.
Because Anakin's feats are consistent. Mace's are not. And LOL @me wanking Anakin.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You think a character feat involves twirling a lightsaber around.
Sure thing. Then everyone is equal in speed I guess, since their speed feats don't count.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
You take source material and ignore certain aspects for your own benefit.
I ignore whatever's inconsistent.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And worst of all you dismiss Mace's defeat of Palpatine under the "lol Vaapad" argument without even understanding how it works.
I know how it works. Do you?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So when you get Anakin's pretty boy cock from betwixt your lips message me
What, you don't want to keep Mace entertained?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
and I'll debate you.
No, you'll waste my time.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Otherwise change your username to Padme Amidala. At least then your wank of Anakin would be justified by some legal measure.
I wank Anakin because I say he has better speed and TK than Mace, but you don't wank Mace for saying the opposite?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Merry Christmas Padme.
Padme died in 2005. You're a bit late.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Your rebuttal will probably not be responded to.
I see. Retracting the argument is wise when it's as retarded as yours.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He has better force feats than Maul/Savage.
Hardly. Savage and Maul has both moved starfighters/shuttles with more ease than Mace moved the tank IIRC. And, as I said, Anakin has better TK as well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What POWER said. Nothing shows that Bulq was out of the fight.


Right so he just decided not to pursue Windu right after trying to kill him.



No it isn't its in the narrative. Reading comprehension ftw. Its saying Mace is a perhaps. Meaning its more than likely a 55:45 in Dooku's favor. Mace is a Jedi, does he have to cut him across the chest in order to win.



You don't have an argument.



You're being dense as usual. If Bulq wasn't unconscious what was he doing. So...you think Windu ran away engaged in a duel with Ventress and ruined Bulq's strategy all while Bulq what? Just stands there and twiddles his dick?


So what is your argument?






Uh I forgot the scan where Ventress hypes her even further?






You don't get to say what canon source is valid and what aren't. Unless you happen to be Leeland Chee or GL, you can stop right there.





Every author has a stylistic difference, that's what a stylistic difference is nitwit.










You aren't using logic. You are using selective reasoning, which is what we like to call bias.





How about you do us a favor and tell us what your argument actually is? State it simply in a thesis. Because at this point you are just annoying me.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Right so he just decided not to pursue Windu right after trying to kill him.
He actually saw Mace fly away without following him, speaking that they would meet again. So yes.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it isn't its in the narrative.
Omfg. SW novels are written in third-person narration. The narrator is not omniscient, but only privy to the thoughts of the characters. In this case, the narrator is showing us Yoda's thoughts/opinion.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its saying Mace is a perhaps.


''Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground''. In this case, ''perhaps'' means that there might be others.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
You don't have an argument.
Then what are you doing here?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Just stands there and twiddles his dick?
With Ventress in sight, I wouldn't be surprised.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
So what is your argument?
I'm seriously wondering if you're this daft or just trolling me. Why are you responding to arguments you don't even know?


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh I forgot the scan where Ventress hypes her even further?
I don't even know what this means. Hypes her even further?


Originally posted by Lord Stark
You don't get to say what canon source is valid and what aren't. Unless you happen to be Leeland Chee or GL, you can stop right there.
Alright. You can keep using Mace's feats which are inconsistent with all is other feats all you like, but I'm not gonna take you seriously.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Every author has a stylistic difference, that's what a stylistic difference is nitwit.
And you are aware that the book in which Anakin has a speed feat better than whatever Mace has done is written by Matthew Stover, the same author who pretty much gave Mace an identity by writing his book ''Shatterpoint'', right?


Originally posted by Lord Stark
You aren't using logic. You are using selective reasoning, which is what we like to call bias.
Lmao. If you honestly think I'm biased for Anakin then good for you. I can't stand Anakin.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
How about you do us a favor and tell us what your argument actually is? State it simply in a thesis. Because at this point you are just annoying me.
lol

That neither Anakin nor Mace can compete with Sidious, and that Anakin is better than Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That neither Anakin nor Mace can compete with Sidious, and that Anakin is better than Mace.

Right, you are aware I created an Anakin respect thread correct? That I was the one who debunked the concept that Mace can take Anakin to the curb? Before I made that thread the idea was that Mace was way stronger than Anakin.

Also Mace can compete with Sidious based on the GL quote you keep throwing in my face. Even if Anakin is better than Mace he'll lose against him because Vaapad throws his greatest strength (his rage) right back at him. Mace defeating Sidious, who's much better at appropriating his rage into strength means Anakin is unlikely to be able to defeat Mae.

Your idea that Mace can't compete with Sidious is debunked by every canon source to date.



We're done here. You clearly don't even know what third-person narrative is. So here you go.
http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/glossary/g/3rdperson.htm

"Third person point of view may be omniscient or limited."

Considering that the novel also reflects Dooku's inner thoughts, it isn't limited. Limited would be like the ASOIAF novels where each chapter focuses on a specific character.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Right, you are aware I created an Anakin respect thread correct?
Link?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That I was the one who debunked the concept that Mace can take Anakin to the curb? Before I made that thread the idea was that Mace was way stronger than Anakin.
You sound proud.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Even if Anakin is better than Mace he'll lose against him because Vaapad throws his greatest strength (his rage) right back at him.
Except that Vaapad has limits. If not, he would have beaten Kar Vastor; but what happened?

He lost to Vastor.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
We're done here. You clearly don't even know what third-person narrative is. So here you go.
http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/glossary/g/3rdperson.htm

"Third person point of view may be omniscient or limited."

Considering that the novel also reflects Dooku's inner thoughts, it isn't limited. Limited would be like the ASOIAF novels where each chapter focuses on a specific character.
This is amusing.

''The third-person subjective is when the narrator conveys the thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. of one or more characters. If there is just one character, it can be termed third-person limited, in which the reader is "limited" to the thoughts of some particular character (often the protagonist) as in the first-person mode, except still giving personal descriptions using "he", "she", "it", and "they", but not "I".''

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nothing shows that Bulq was out of the fight.

Beg your pardon but let's use a little common sense here.

Mace Force-slammed Bulq into the wall and then left to save the other Jedi. He arrives in time to drive off Ventress, they make it to the ship and fly off.

If Bulq had been able to immediately give chase and stall Mace further he would have done so. As it is Bulq doesn't arrive on the scene until the Jedi have escaped. Even if he wasn't out cold he was at the very least stunned for a few moments. Meaning yes, he was out of the fight.

Furthermore, Mace could have killed him right then and there. He didn't because saving lives was more important than killing an enemy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He actually saw Mace fly away without following him, speaking that they would meet again. So yes.

Exactly. By the time Bulq gets there the Jedi have flown off. At that point Bulq knows he can't get to a ship in time to stop them before they go into hyperspace. He doesn't follow because by then they were beyond his immediate reach.

So what was the end result?

Mace foiled Bulq's plan to divide the Jedi, got the others away, exposed Bulq as a traitor and could have killed him if there hadn't been a more pressing issue to deal with.

Winner: Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure they were. You forgot to post the scan prior to the one where they clashed blades. And she wasn't cornered..

By "clashed blades" you mean of course, that she blocked one blow.

She blocked one attack, linked her sabres together and did a counterstrike which Mace backflipped over. He then drove her back to the edge of a cliff so yes, she was cornered.

Blocking one blow, launching one counterattack and then being forced to give ground until she's on the edge of a cliff is not even remotely close to "fighting evenly." At best it shows Ventress is good enough to not get killed immediately against Mace.

She wouldn't have fled had Mace not gained the advantage, especially given her statement that she wanted to fight him in the first place.



And your opinionated but very wrong statement that Mace cannot compete with Sidious does not trump G-canon, no matter how many times you state it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
''The third-person subjective is when the narrator conveys the thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. of one or more characters. If there is just one character, it can be termed third-person limited, in which the reader is "limited" to the thoughts of some particular character (often the protagonist) as in the first-person mode, except still giving personal descriptions using "he", "she", "it", and "they", but not "I".''

It isn't written in third person subjective. Its clearly written from the narrator's POV. We're done here Intrepid.

Nope, Intrepids right.