Supergirl. Wonder Woman. And the Usual Suspects. Heralds of the Luciferian Age?

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bluewaterrider
At least one of the people on this forum, and several elsewhere, have asked me what I've thought of DCnU, the current roster of characters, and how storylines seem to be developing. I've not been overly impressed for the most part, at least not in terms of general goings-on.

I have been struck, however, at the rather ... eclectic motifs and strange brand of symbolism that seems to be at work now. Most of it was already present, and that from day one, but ... something seems ... different now.
To the point of being jarring. To the point where some of the stranger things I've come across and read don't seem quite so strange as they once did. To the point that I'm beginning to wonder, at the very least, where DC writers and art staff are getting their weekly inspiration from.

How, for instance, does a character created, ostensibly, to represent "Truth, Justice, and the American Way", a conservative figure who respects the law and traditional values, become an unmarried and irresponsible father, who sleeps around with women, rejects identity with America, stalks his ex-lover, and executes criminals that, in an earlier time, would have been stopped creatively without bloodshed?

How does this man's cousin go from a gentle girl raised by foster parents, helping in matters as small as getting cats out of trees, become, in one incarnation, a child-killer, in another, a demon-worshipping murderess, and, in the current one, a wild, lost, and rebellious figure threatening the death of everyone on Earth for the "boy" she likes, and the illusory chance of reconciling with her parents?



There's far more than this.

It will take time to develop.

I'm interested in knowing what some of you think.
Where IS the creative staff of DC coming up with this stuff?
Is it the direction of it's own leadership, or that of Warner Bros?

Is it really only driven by money, or is there some template they're actually following?

For now, considering questions like the above, but there are many more concerning NUMEROUS other characters at this point, I'll provide the following link, and, as time goes on, provide some images that seem quite singular in light of long-ago written articles like this, and more than a little puzzling regarding what we've been seeing these past few years:



http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/comics.php?topic=articles/superman-satan

roughrider
A ten year old article as your basis for an argument? roll eyes (sarcastic)

All DC has ever done is try to update Superman and his supporting cast for the modern age. The world is a much more complicated place, and the readership of comics is much more sophisticated than when Superman got started in 1938. The only problem has been DC getting reboot happy since the first big one in 1985, which has led to several different overhauls of Superman.

What Superman did while being possessed or mind controlled has no bearing on his character, like when he was brainwashed into doing a porno with Big Barda (did you miss that one? big grin ) The readership has actually found Superman's (and Batman's) attachment to the no-killing rule unrealistic at times, when the circumstances are extreme (like with Maxwell Lord.)

-Pr-
Really not sure what you're getting at. Elseworlds and alternate versions have almost no connection to main universe. And they're generally written by people who aren't the regular writers on the series.

Originally posted by roughrider
A ten year old article as your basis for an argument? roll eyes (sarcastic)

All DC has ever done is try to update Superman and his supporting cast for the modern age. The world is a much more complicated place, and the readership of comics is much more sophisticated than when Superman got started in 1938. The only problem has been DC getting reboot happy since the first big one in 1985, which has led to several different overhauls of Superman.

What Superman did while being possessed or mind controlled has no bearing on his character, like when he was brainwashed into doing a porno with Big Barda (did you miss that one? big grin ) The readership has actually found Superman's (and Batman's) attachment to the no-killing rule unrealistic at times, when the circumstances are extreme (like with Maxwell Lord.)

It was 20 years between COIE and IC. During that time there was ONE Superman.

The reboot in 2011 being considered, I still don't see where "reboot happy" comes from.

roughrider
Originally posted by -Pr-




It was 20 years between COIE and IC. During that time there was ONE Superman.

The reboot in 2011 being considered, I still don't see where "reboot happy" comes from.

Other attempts to change Superman's origin in the past decade include Superman: Birthright (which Mark Waid wanted to replace John Byrne's Man Of Steel origin) and Superman: Secret Origin by Geoff Johns & Gary Frank. Then the New 52 happened, with positive and negative changes (Better costume, but no Ma & Pa Kent.)

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-
Really not sure what you're getting at. Elseworlds and alternate versions have almost no connection to main universe. And they're generally written by people who aren't the regular writers on the series.



I'm going to presume this part of your message was aimed at me.
You correctly identify that my specific examples for Superman were and are references to the 2 most recent movies, if so.


I alluded to them, however, because:

1) This is the comic book movie forum

2) The movies command a viewership of millions and reach many times more than the comic book readership of several ten thousand. The movie version of Superman is what the general populace knows best.



For the part about Supergirl of my first post, though, none of that was alternate reality OR elseworlds. All of it was mainstream when written:

"gentle girl raised by foster parents ... getting cats out of trees"
Silver Age Supergirl

"in one incarnation, a child-killer"
Jeph Loeb's Supergirl, as depicted by Joe Kelly ... roughly Supergirl #16-18 arc

"in another, a demon-worshipping murderess",
Peter David's Supergirl, late 1990s/early2000s

"and, in the current one, a wild, lost, and rebellious figure threatening the death of everyone on Earth for the "boy" she likes, and the illusory chance of reconciling with her parents?"
DCnU Supergirl. Recent H'el story arc.

-Pr-
Originally posted by roughrider
Other attempts to change Superman's origin in the past decade include Superman: Birthright (which Mark Waid wanted to replace John Byrne's Man Of Steel origin) and Superman: Secret Origin by Geoff Johns & Gary Frank. Then the New 52 happened, with positive and negative changes (Better costume, but no Ma & Pa Kent.)

Birthright and Secret Origin were many years apart, and had little actual effect on Superman in a day to day sense. He was still considered by DC to be the same Superman. Little retcons happen to most characters over time.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm going to presume this part of your message was aimed at me.
You correctly identify that my specific examples for Superman were and are references to the 2 most recent movies, if so.


I alluded to them, however, because:

1) This is the comic book movie forum

2) The movies command a viewership of millions and reach many times more than the comic book readership of several ten thousand. The movie version of Superman is what the general populace knows best.



For the part about Supergirl of my first post, though, none of that was alternate reality OR elseworlds. All of it was mainstream when written:

"gentle girl raised by foster parents ... getting cats out of trees"
Silver Age Supergirl

"in one incarnation, a child-killer"
Jeph Loeb's Supergirl, as depicted by Joe Kelly ... roughly Supergirl #16-18 arc

"in another, a demon-worshipping murderess",
Peter David's Supergirl, late 1990s/early2000s

"and, in the current one, a wild, lost, and rebellious figure threatening the death of everyone on Earth for the "boy" she likes, and the illusory chance of reconciling with her parents?"
DCnU Supergirl. Recent H'el story arc.

Did you bring up Man of Steel in that? I didn't see. Also, Superman Returns was crap, but that's neither here nor there.

I think the summation of David's run is a bit OTT, tbh. Though as regards post reboot Kara, she's still growing, so her acting like a moody teen is to be expected, I think. I'm not saying Supergirl fans have to like it; just that I see where it's coming from.

55iopy
"and, in the current one, a wild, lost, and rebellious figure threatening the death of everyone on Earth for the "boy" she likes, and the illusory chance of reconciling with her parents?"
DCnU Supergirl. Recent H'el story arc.
Hi Bluewaterrider, long time. I guess you know what would get me to post. I'll give this some thought .

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by 55iopy
Hi Bluewaterrider, long time. I guess you know what would get me to post. I'll give this some thought .

There are problems inherent in this topic.

One, it challenges sacred cows by its very nature. It cannot do otherwise.

Two, it deals with symbolism, which, by its nature, is open to interpretation, and, even where it really isn't, was designed in such a way as to defy conventional explanation.

Third, I'm actually talking about something more general than the title will probably lead a casual reader of this particular forum to understand. The fact that I'm going to be using specific examples will throw people off, but cannot be helped. Without specific examples, it will be impossible for people to see what I'm talking about, relate to what I am currently thinking. Your input will be appreciated.
If you have questions, ask. Likely, perhaps starting this week, though perhaps not, I will focus on answering things on Tuesdays ...

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by roughrider
A ten year old article as your basis for an argument?


I've not really made an argument. I suppose if I were to make one it would be something like: "Comic industry characters and scripts seem to be reflective of, and are perhaps to some degree influenced by, lesser known Judeo-Christian writings. This is perhaps to be expected given the background of the people who originally created the industry to begin with."

Cogito
Heralds of the Luciferian Age?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qDdnwPOuokU/TxNMk4iUxFI/AAAAAAAAAoI/HyLL3sHS4jg/s200/clint-eastwood-disgusted-gif.gif

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Cogito
Heralds of the Luciferian Age?


Yep.

I'll explain all the reasons for the title as this thread progresses.

bluewaterrider
I'm not going to worry about any particular order until perhaps page 3 or so.



Default format in the meanwhile will be:

1) Judeo-Christian writing passage.
2) Comic book image that brings that same Judeo-Christian passage to mind, and why it does so, if appropriate.
3) Invitation to readers to provide an alternative explanation

bluewaterrider
A lot of this thread will depend on people giving an honest examination to visual symbols. So, it only makes sense to start by presenting some of those visual symbols and rhetorical questions for posters to answer for themselves.


Here's the first:

Cogito
Superman's crest is Luciferian propaganda?

abhilegend
Quit eating paint chips.

bluewaterrider
I'd already begun writing another response to you, Cogito.

So I'll go ahead and present what I'd already had ready to send here:




Originally posted by Cogito
Heralds of the Luciferian Age?




Comic book readers such as yourself should have little trouble understanding what a "herald" is. Powerful messenger. Preceding the arrival of someone (usually) even more powerful. In fact, so powerful that ordinary men and women can only dream of being like the herald, let alone like the one the herald is announcing to the world. The Silver Surfer and Galactus are the classic case, with Silver Surfer being the equal or superior of Superman himself in almost any incarnation, but Galactus being so far above that as to make Supes irrelevant.


No, it's the word "Luciferian" giving all the trouble.

But explaining what that term actually means, let alone how and why I'M using this phrase, is going to take time.
For not everything can be explained in a single, tweet-length posting.


Have patience. I've already begun, and presented source material that can be perused now at leisure.


In the meantime, enjoy the following clip concerning the fallacy of enforcing concision on every presenter. It concerns a slightly different field, but the general lesson is worth noting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlL2Jj-kCNU

(Noam Chomsky on the vital role of concision in the American Media)

55iopy
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
A lot of this thread will depend on people giving an honest examination to visual symbols. So, it only makes sense to start by presenting some of those visual symbols and rhetorical questions for posters to answer for themselves.


Here's the first:
I'm going to let you present your argument before I respond in depth. You've already seen my response to concision last January (I never heard back from you young man), and I'll give you a quick personal observation on the S Shield question. As I mentioned, I'll wait to see where the greater argument is going, but when I first encountered Superman comics long before I could read or knew the alphabet I didn't observe a snake, my mind focused on the opposite field and I saw two yellow fish swimming in an ocean of red.

What does it say that the visual symbolism my mind perceived worked this way? Concision depends on common accepted visual or verbal cues to impart a greater meaning than is contained in the abbreviated raw message that appears on the surface, did I unintentionally subvert the message by having a different mental shorthand?

Please continue.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Cogito
Superman's crest is Luciferian propaganda?


We haven't defined "Luciferian" yet. It doesn't mean what the average person probably thinks it means. In popular culture, Lucifer and Satan may or may not be synonymous, but Satan is generally regarded as The Devil, a horned, evil-looking malevolent figure. Presumably, Lucifer, as Satan, looks like that type of monster.

Judeo-Christian writings, the lesser-read ones, sometimes give us a slightly different picture. Not a twisted misshapen being, but one who appears beautiful, in fact, nearly perfect in beauty, greater than nearly all others.

"... I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Luke 10:18-19

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by 55iopy
I never heard back from you young man ...


sad

I sorry.




Originally posted by 55iopy
when I first encountered Superman comics long before I could read or knew the alphabet I didn't observe a snake, my mind focused on the opposite field and I saw two yellow fish swimming in an ocean of red ...


confused



Originally posted by 55iopy


What does it say that the visual symbolism my mind perceived worked this way?



confused



Originally posted by 55iopy


Concision depends on common accepted visual or verbal cues to impart a greater meaning than is contained in the abbreviated raw message that appears on the surface ...

... did I unintentionally subvert the message by having a different mental shorthand?



Uhm, sure. I'll go with that one ...


I'm not sure how you're using the term "subvert" here, and I'm not quite sure you're understanding why I posted that Noam Chomsky clip in this particular thread. The first part of your "Concision depends ..." sentence?

I understand.

I think it is a good insight.



I don't quite get the 2nd part.



Unless you're saying you didn't as a young girl have the context to give the picture any meaning? Maybe because you had seen goldfish before that point but not snakes, too young to even know what a snake was, let alone looked like?

If that's what you're saying that would actually be a great help to this thread.

For few people understand what "Luciferian" actually looks like. And I can't show it with one image, I have to show a great many. Until people recognize the pattern.

That can't be done in short order.
It can't be done concise.

(At least, if it CAN be done "concise" I don't personally know how to turn the trick.)



But again, it's not really an argument I'm making.
It's just something I've noticed. And noticed this year especially, in light of developments with some of my favorite characters.


------------------

'Bout your fish:

"Dagon" came up in some of the material I was researching for this topic. Besides that, I was going to present this image regardless of what other responses I got.


Your comment demands this image be presented now and not later ...

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Cogito
Heralds of the Luciferian Age?




I promised I would explain the title as time goes on, and have begun doing exactly that.

Last night, for instance, I defined "Heralds" for you reasonably well.

The entire thread is devoted to explaining the "Luciferian" part, as time goes on.


You may be wondering why the exact phrasing of the title.

Why Supergirl? Why Wonder Woman?


I'll explain that later.

For now, I'll reveal that the exact phrase "Heralds of the Luciferian Age" was chosen NOT solely to reflect what the majority of the thread entries would concern themselves with, but to make this topic search-able on Google.

In point of fact, until today, the phrase "Heralds of the Luciferian Age" typed IN QUOTES gave this particular thread as the lone result ...

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-
Really not sure what you're getting at ...



As I said, it will become clearer as I develop this thread.

For much of this is concerned with symbolism, something inherently difficult to explain to people, assuming it can even be done, but I think there is enough present, even in my own limited collection, to support my relatively narrow-ranged premise:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I've not really made an argument. I suppose if I were to make one it would be something like: "Comic industry characters and scripts seem to be reflective of, and are perhaps to some degree influenced by, lesser known Judeo-Christian writings. This is perhaps to be expected given the background of the people who originally created the industry to begin with."




Perhaps I should start with some of the easier and more obvious examples of the above. Start, in fact with more "well-known" symbols.

Most people in America are at least vaguely familiar with the story of the crucifixion, for instance. The symbol of The Cross, with or without victim shown hanging on it, triggers something in the recesses of memory for even the most secular Americans. What it does for people in other countries, I don't know. You, being one person from another country, might be able to give me a partial answer.

What then, is the average American to associate Superman with in his mind when he sees the following in a blockbuster movie ... ?

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-

Did you bring up Man of Steel ... ?
I didn't see.


That was actually what I was referring to when I wrote this part of my original post:



" ... executes criminals that, in an earlier time, would have been stopped creatively without bloodshed ..."


You know the scene I'm talking about.


Incidentally, this statement would apply even better to the very mainstream-at-the-time Superman #22, by John Byrne.


Back to Man of Steel.
Something else strikes me from that movie.
Concerning the costume especially.


Ever seen snakeskin?

Here's what I got when I entered the word "snakeskin" in on "Google Images" a little while ago:

bluewaterrider
Very pretty those snakeskin images ...


Any of those same snakeskin images,
say, the one in the bottom right hand corner,
remind you of anything as you look at the following picture of Henry Cavill?

bluewaterrider
This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery


There are enough images for an honest poster like Iopy to have food for thought, I think. Here are the URLs for those:


Snake Imagery


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567120

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567261

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14564997

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567695




Iopy, as you examine the above, store away the following for later consideration, too. You're one of the few I KNOW knows the answer to the question asked in its text ...

bluewaterrider
This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery


There are enough images for an honest poster like Iopy to have food for thought, I think.

If not, after today I DO intend to include quite a bit more in terms of images and supporting evidence. Here are the current links for the first "category", though:


Snake Imagery


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567120

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567261

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14564997

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567695

bluewaterrider
December 24th being what it is (Christmas Eve), this will probably have to be one of, if not the, last messages I post for the day, if not the week.

I'll simply make it a post,then, with an image from a relatively recent (given DC's overall history) comic and a few rhetorical questions.

The imagery is important, and I want people to notice the Crucifixion poses assumed 3 times by two different characters on this page, but what I really want focused on is the dialogue, above all the strange mention of "The Beast".

What is this referring to? Or whom?
Why did the writer choose THAT term?
Where does the phrase originally derive from?
Why, in the context of the story (Countdown #13), is the term significant?

----------------------

Till next time ...

Cogito
Your evidence for snake imagery is the letter "S".

Really. no expression

So, is there an inherrent problem with the letter "S" in all possible uses, or only when it's written on someone's shirt?

JakeTheBank
.....what?

Branlor Swift
I don't know what I'm looking at or reading.

bluewaterrider
Yeah, I can see this will take some time.

Jake, assuming that "--- what?" was directed at me, read the following.


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I've not really made an argument. I suppose if I were to make one it would be something like: "Comic industry characters and scripts seem to be reflective of, and are perhaps to some degree influenced by, lesser known Judeo-Christian writings. This is perhaps to be expected given the background of the people who originally created the industry to begin with."


Cogito, the evidence I've presented that relates most to what I've written directly above is the Countdown #13 scan.

You'll need to answer the questions I presented in relation to that and "The Beast" before I concern myself with your other queries, for I've answered several of your questions already and you've ignored my answers to date.

As suggested before, what you've seen is only a fraction of what I intend to present, and it will take a good deal of time to present it all. As it is the holiday season, no more frequency should be expected than Tuesday submissions.

Cogito
Oh please, by all means, continue.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Cogito
Oh please, by all means, continue.


You're still not paying attention to what I'm actually writing, Cogito.



Tuesdays.



Unless I get more time throughout the coming weeks than I know what to do with.

(Iopy I'll seriously consider making an exception for. If I'm online, but that's a big "if", I'll surely do my best to accommodate her. She's a special case.)




Merry Christmas.

Cogito
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're still not paying attention to what I'm actually writing, Cogito.

I think you're confusing "paying attention" with "agreeing" or "not thinking you're nuts".

Merry Christmas.

Prof. T.C McAbe
You convinced me. Lucifer is coming but I am sure as hell that Dean and Sam will stop him, so don't worry pal ^^.

55iopy
No, I'm pretty sure I don't understand why you posted Chomsky in the thread, but I have an idea. I'd prefer to let you develop and express the idea rather than jumping in and spoiling your nascent thesis with a premature analysis.

I'll try to expand on the second part where I failed to express my meaning in a way you could parse. A failure of concision I guess.

What I meant by my comments about concision was that concision requires a certain degree of commonality between the speaker and listener of experience, cultural referents, and mental shorthand connections or the message may be lost or go awry.

As an example of that, if someone created a message thread somewhere with a title of "Superman Meets the Hulk!" the audiences in most fan message bases would be expecting a conversation about who is stronger, a better fighter, and so forth. That's a four word subject line, but carries within it a world of additional meaning that depends on the background, expectations, and mind set of the reader. That's a basic but clear example of concision.

Someone like me, with a completely different set of mental wiring, might expect a graphic of She-Hulk flirting with a blushing Superman, or even one of Superman putting Hulk to sleep with an extended discussion of how hard it is and angsty and depressed it makes you to have a life where you're gorgeous, invulnerable, and loved the world over. (Warning: snarky new52 reference.)

(I would have inserted inline graphics, or even clickable links, that demonstrate the scenes I just described but I don't have the necessary number of total posts to be trusted.)

And this is what I meant by "subvert" in the case of this discussion. I wasn't raised in what is considered a "normal" environment, and I have a different mental map I chart life against than someone who was. When Concision is used I often accidentally subvert the expectations of the conversation by misinterpreting the intent of a concise term or phrase by not having the expected mental referents, emotional attachments, or cultural metaphors.

I don't have a mental model of Judeo-Christian metaphor and imagery based on my childhood experiences and enculturation. My "map" is wrong, and will lead me to faulty conclusions. I won't see a snake in the Super-Shield-as-ink-blot-test, I'll see two fish. Like my last post, where I left you rolling your eyes and wondering WTF, I have to expect to explain myself. You're not talking to Penny, you're talking to Amy Farrah Fowler.*

That was the meaning of my short story about the shield, snake, and fish. Which is, again, a reason I'll let you state your thesis without a lot of commentary until I have a better understanding.

* I love the fact that I now have a "concise" cultural referent.

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by 55iopy


I don't have a mental model of Judeo-Christian metaphor and imagery based on my childhood experiences and enculturation. My "map" is wrong, and will lead me to faulty conclusions. I won't see a snake in the Super-Shield-as-ink-blot-test, I'll see two fish ...


Hearing this is a little disconcerting. For even many of the atheists I know of online, the completely a-religious, yet have familiarity with a great many religious stories, and perhaps those of the Bible especially.

Did you understand why the writer of Countdown 13 was calling Superboy Prime "The Beast" in the scan that I showed? Or at least recognize that the phrase IS a religious reference? This will require a lot more work than I thought if one even as yourself has zero familiarity with the original "longhand" version of what's being modeled.

bluewaterrider
I'll probably conclude for the day with the answer to the following:


Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Iopy, as you examine the above, store away the following for later consideration, too. You're one of the few I KNOW knows the answer to the question asked in its text ...


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567766


The question posed (paraphrased) is "What is Satan Girl's terrible secret?".


The answer, is that

Satan Girl is part of Supergirl. She is merely an aspect of Supergirl given "independence" through the power of Red Kryptonite. When the effect of the radioactive mineral wears off, she becomes again a part of Kara.



If you've read the "shaded" portion above, note now that the themes I'm seeing are generally suggested more directly where they concern Kara or Diana as opposed to Kal-El alone in his solo adventures. Perhaps even stronger suggestions relating to the title can be viewed by previewing the Supergirl run of Peter David, which I intend to address a bit later.

-Pr-
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That was actually what I was referring to when I wrote this part of my original post:



" ... executes criminals that, in an earlier time, would have been stopped creatively without bloodshed ..."


You know the scene I'm talking about.


Incidentally, this statement would apply even better to the very mainstream-at-the-time Superman #22, by John Byrne.


Back to Man of Steel.
Something else strikes me from that movie.
Concerning the costume especially.


Ever seen snakeskin?

Here's what I got when I entered the word "snakeskin" in on "Google Images" a little while ago:

I honestly think that your statement is a horrible over-simplification of what happened. But that's me.

Also, I don't think anyone can claim it was an execution.

Oh, and I don't think anything about Superman is at all Satanic.

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think anything about Superman is at all Satanic.


With all due respect, I'm not sure you or most of the people reading or responding to this thread fully realize what "Luciferian" means. It is not quite the same as Satanic. Presumably "Satanic" equates to "evil" in your mind?
And LOOKS "evil"?

Luciferian LOOKS "good". It is often beautiful and angelic-looking.
Perhaps some of its followers even believe so.
I happened to stumble upon a website that enforced the point, relatively well-reflects how I am trying to use the word "Luciferian". Note that it is not exact. Note that I myself am neither a Luciferian or a Satanist. Note that I am not endorsing this place. I wish ONLY to provide proof with this link, with some authority, that Luciferian and Satanic are not always equivalent terms, though the average reader might think they are.

http://altreligion.about.com/od/alternativereligionsaz/a/How-Luciferians-Differ-From-Satanists.htm


Perhaps it might be useful to explain to people what traits define a character as Luciferian to begin with.
See if you see any reflection of Superman once you read the following:



"Church of Satan founder Anton LeVay said comic books were a means to get Satanic philosophy into the hands of children since that medium was invented by Eastman Color Printing's salesmen Max Ginzberg (Maxwell Gaines) and Harry Wildenberg in 1933. The first comic was a harmless collection of newspaper style 'funnies' titled "Famous Funnies: A Carnival of Comics".

The sinister type of comic 'super hero' genre was invented by a couple of teenagers as 'Superman' during 1932, Jerry Seigel and Joe Shuster in Cleveland Ohio. They sold the prototype story boards to the new 'Detective Comics", now known as DC Comics. The Superman Concept spawned endless copycats, such as Batman who was soon to follow.

Yeah I know, "but Superman was a good guy". LeVay went on to explain the Luciferian 'hero' characteristics. He's a superior being trapped in the human world where he must conceal his identity, lest the inferior human beings try to destroy him. His past usually involves a fall from his previous world to Earth, often left to die by comrades or enemies. LeVay identified the 1950's TV character "The Lone Ranger" as a typical Luciferian hero."

http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?56798-The-Luciferian-Superman-Comic-Book-Connection

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I've not really made an argument. I suppose if I were to make one it would be something like: "Comic industry characters and scripts seem to be reflective of, and are perhaps to some degree influenced by, lesser known Judeo-Christian writings. This is perhaps to be expected given the background of the people who originally created the industry to begin with."


Filtering out distortion

I plan relatively soon to outline the basic model that is BEING modeled, which is essentially the Jewish/Christian log of Creation, Fall, Redemption, Apocalypse.

It takes a very specific form in the Torah, Tanakh, and Bible (presumably the Kaballah, too, but, I've not had exposure to that particular book, and, unless I find one of those online, am not likely to in the future).

It's important to understand; it is the "longhand" if you will, that is shortened, warped, and symbolized in current DCnU arcs, even as it was to some extent in previous eras.

It is the second one, however, the "warping", that is essential to realize.
The tellings are rarely, if ever, exact translations.
That does NOT mean they are not derived from the original source I'm going to describe; just makes it difficult to convey using conventional formats.

-Pr-

JakeTheBank
Superman didn't get angry and execute Zod. He did so was anguish and grief as he effectively severed the one link he had left with his people to save the lives of innocents. I didn't care for that particular scene, but I understood it.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman didn't get angry and execute Zod. He did so was anguish and grief as he effectively severed the one link he had left with his people to save the lives of innocents. I didn't care for that particular scene, but I understood it.

Same. I do see where people are coming from when they say "he had other options", but I can still see where Snyder was coming from.

bluewaterrider
Filtering out distortion


3 examples of the type of distortion I'm trying to describe are coming to mind.


It is is necessary to do so because nearly everything I'm trying to describe is in disguise to some extent, and presumably was/is intended to be so.


I'm not sure I'll use the 1st example.

It would have been the Lonestar versus Dark Helmet battle. It's currently on YouTube. The groan-inducing humor of the scene would distract too much from the point I'm trying to get across. It would be good if that could be gotten past. No one who views the clip could fail to recognize what it is derived from.


2nd example would be Grendel, a re-telling of the first part of the epic poem "Beowulf". From the perspective of the monster. This example would be particularly appropriate for trying to explain Luciferian symbolism.

I'll likely search for a good quick summary so I can illustrate that particular point without wasting much time typing later this week.


3rd example, knowing that I'm dealing with an audience familiar with arcade games and the like ... "Gairyu Isle". Something that reflects just how subtle and very much altered things can be, but still legitimately recognizable as derived unmistakeably from a kernel source.

Then again, one enormous difficulty I'm having is that of ordered presentation.
So I might create a thread for Gairyu elsewhere in the forum before coming back to this particular thread to develop it.






Might be a good idea to see what my audience understands so far, too, so:



P.R.

1) My assertion about Superboy Prime in Countdown 13 and The Beast being a reference to The Beast of Revelation. Agree or disagree? If you disagree, why do you disagree? Where do you think the writer got that instead?
What evidence do you have to the contrary and where have you heard that singular term before?

2) Do you agree or disagree that Man of Steel and Superman Returns both used Christ imagery with Superman? Do you recognize those poses as crucifix and sacrifice motifs or not? If not, what do you propose the poses were adopted for instead?

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-
I read enough reviews to get the impression that most of the reviewers have what I would consider either a distorted or simply unrealistic view of Superman.


1) Granted.
2) Without denying #1, though ... you're a special case.

Originally posted by -Pr-

The John Byrne scan really isn't relevant to your argument, imo.


It corroborates the statement I made earlier:
" ... executes criminals that, in an earlier time, would have been stopped creatively without bloodshed ..."




Originally posted by -Pr-

If we're going by the whole "morning star" thing, then I really don't see how Superman being a "Luciferian hero" is necessarily a bad thing, or how it relates at all to this topic.


Planning to get to that a little later this week.



Originally posted by -Pr-

I'll admit that I only have a vague understanding from what I've read, so am I missing something?

Scans from the comics from me concerning Supergirl, Superman, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Mary Marvel, and a host of others.

And the full development of the argument I've allowed to be set forth.



Which, again, is essentially this:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I've not really made an argument. I suppose if I were to make one it would be something like: "Comic industry characters and scripts seem to be reflective of, and are perhaps to some degree influenced by, lesser known Judeo-Christian writings. This is perhaps to be expected given the background of the people who originally created the industry to begin with."


... and I don't intend to stray very far beyond what is necessary to support the above statement.

-Pr-
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1) My assertion about Superboy Prime in Countdown 13 and The Beast being a reference to The Beast of Revelation. Agree or disagree? If you disagree, why do you disagree? Where do you think the writer got that instead?
What evidence do you have to the contrary and where have you heard that singular term before?

2) Do you agree or disagree that Man of Steel and Superman Returns both used Christ imagery with Superman? Do you recognize those poses as crucifix and sacrifice motifs or not? If not, what do you propose the poses were adopted for instead?

1) Using parallels between religion/mythology for literary purposes has been going on for years. It helps the reader see the gravity of the situation. DC actually has a heaven and a hell, and Superboy Prime is part of neither. It's how the writers get across that this is a massive deal, and that the threat needs to be taken seriously.

2) Superman has long been used as a Christ-like figure. A saviour of mankind. As a fan, I dislike it as much as Superman himself does. It's, again, a method used by writers to try to portray an idea through simple means.

It is not saying that Superman is literally Christ, or that Prime is literally the beast.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It corroborates the statement I made earlier:
" ... executes criminals that, in an earlier time, would have been stopped creatively without bloodshed ..."

Except that it doesn't. It was stated many times that Superman felt he had literally no other course of action. It's a staple of the character that he takes on burdens so that other people don't have to, whether they be physical, mental or spiritual.

"I can't stop these criminals, so I'll deal with the consequences of my actions and the guilt that comes with it, so that people don't die" etc.

There's a difference between killing, and executing. A very important one at that, imo.

======

So your argument is that writers are influenced by religion/myths etc. Is that all? I don't mean to be rude, but I'm honestly asking why debate it at all? It's quite obvious that writers have for years used parallels to help get their points and characters across.

You think there's something sinister going on?

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-
1) Using parallels between religion/mythology for literary purposes has been going on for years. It helps the reader see the gravity of the situation. DC actually has a heaven and a hell, and Superboy Prime is part of neither. It's how the writers get across that this is a massive deal, and that the threat needs to be taken seriously.

2) Superman has long been used as a Christ-like figure. A saviour of mankind. As a fan, I dislike it as much as Superman himself does. It's, again, a method used by writers to try to portray an idea through simple means.

It is not saying that Superman is literally Christ, or that Prime is literally the beast.



Originally posted by -Pr-


It was stated many times that Superman felt he had literally no other course of action. It's a staple of the character that he takes on burdens so that other people don't have to, whether they be physical, mental or spiritual.

"I can't stop these criminals, so I'll deal with the consequences of my actions and the guilt that comes with it, so that people don't die" etc.


Problem with that. Before their execution by Superman with green kryptonite, with Superman himself calling himself "executioner", the Phantom Zone criminals were exposed with Gold Kryptonite. A mineral proven to permanently take away Kryptonian superpowers. It was more or less ordinary people Superman killed at that point.




Originally posted by -Pr-

So your argument is that writers are influenced by religion/myths etc. Is that all? I don't mean to be rude, but I'm honestly asking why debate it at all? It's quite obvious that writers have for years used parallels to help get their points and characters across.


Except it's NOT obvious to many people, including many in this thread.
And I'm arguing these writings are being influenced by a specific type or class of religion(s). I'm even interested in whether or not these writings are so specifically reflective that they can be used to predict where DC will go with current or future arcs. I don't think they are yet, but am interested to see if my opinion or that of others changes in the course of doing this.


Originally posted by -Pr-

You think there's something sinister going on?

That's not a focus of this thread. Like, at all.

I have to admit I am a LITTLE disconcerted to find now that this title, once exclusively calling this particular thread and only this particular thread up via Google, now has me on some type of Anti-Masonic list, though ...

confused

bluewaterrider
I've been trying to think of a way, given what Iopy told me the other day, of quickly relating the bare minimum of "longhand" a completely-unfamiliar-with- anything-remotely-relating-to-Judeo-Christianity reader would need as their base.

Hard to find anything both short enough and informative enough to hold the attention of the average reader, but, judging from at least some of the responses I'm getting, a lot of the readers of this thread are a bit more serious than the average comic reader to begin with.


I'll supplement as necessary.

Briefly:

Doctrines of Luciferian Gnosticism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_OZtVxNQtc
7 min 15 sec

Knowledge of what is contained in the 1st video alone MIGHT be enough to make true sense of everything that will be stated in this thread.

This next would probably make a certainty of it.

I imagine anyone familiar with teachings of the more sincere groups probably know much of the stuff contained here already. I can think of at least one girl I know who would disagree on the teaching of eternal burning in the video.
She would point out, and I seem to remember her group using what are termed "Authorized KJV writings", that even terms as otherwise permanent sounding as "forever and ever" in modern language, sometimes meant instead, "with absolute completeness, taking as long as necessary but eventually ending".

I wish I'd studied with her a few more times before she moved away ...
She was something else.


I digress.

Remembering a very special lady from the past, called to mind by the holidays, among other things ...


Anyway.

Here's the video that should provide the clearest key to understanding the perspective of this thread. Understand again, though, I am not ultimately making the focus of this thread much more than corroborating the assertion that DC has co-opted the "script" of these presentations as the meat of many of their storylines.



Luciferianism VS Christianity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCQjQBqOz38
9 min 59 sec

bluewaterrider
So, with the videos above as barest knowledge base, it becomes possible to do this thread in relatively ordered fashion.


Here, with minor alteration, is the outline that 2nd video gave:

The Beginning
The Fall
The Nephilim
Who is Jesus? (Who is AntiChrist/Beast?)
Redemption
Faith
The Word of God/Prophecy
The End Times

---------------------------

Doubtless I will need to cover and re-order things as people ask clarifying questions, so I won't worry about overmuch about order.
This would never get completed if I did.

I'll go to the default pattern I set forth a page or two ago, filling in as I need.
Got questions? Ask.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah Chapter 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bluewaterrider
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/component/content/article/1-jwo/379-apollyon-bible-study.html





Source of scan: Supergirl #74
Writer: Peter A. David
Circa: 2002

bluewaterrider
Until now my preference was to use KMC's own image host provider.
It still promises the most surety for preservation of images on these boards, so I'll probably still use it occasionally for that.

Unfortunately, I see that, quite unlike times past, KMC no longer allows unregistered people to view KMC images.
More than almost anything, I've always wanted what I post here to be viewable by the widest range of people possible.
Regretfully, then, I ... guess the time for outside IHPs to become MY modus operandi has arrived ...




The following is taken from the first arc of DCnU Wonder Woman.

If you entered the URL from the previous post, you read and perhaps learned something new of Apollo.

My perspective should be starting to come clearer now.

The following scene unfolds as if Azzarello was taking his interpretation of Apollo from the Biblical standpoint as opposed to the more well-known Greek Mythological one.

Or, I suppose one could argue the original Greek interpretation of Apollo, but they're not really all that distinguishable, if so.

At any rate, very much the opposite of how Apollo's been portrayed in the DC Universe PRIOR to 2010 ...



http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9si93.jpg

http://oi42.tinypic.com/j7f792.jpg



http://oi42.tinypic.com/sesgvb.jpg

http://oi43.tinypic.com/1e5lya.jpg


Source: Wonder Woman #1, Volume 5

bluewaterrider
The unfortunate reality is that even YouTube videos eventually get removed. If the same fate befalls the clips I found and posted earlier occurs, nothing will be here in this thread to help people make sense of anything they are reading.

So, here's the "longhand", as best as I can remember, from what I've read or viewed till now, regarding the overall program of the Bible.

It is the script Luciferianism, reverts, inverts, subverts, what have you.

This and Luciferianism in turn, I would argue, are the scripts that are the basis for much of the symbolic language seen in the superhero comic genre.

And today, arguably, more than ever.


I've based much of the reading I did for research on this Christianity portion from what is termed the "Authorized", as opposed to the quote unquote New, King James Version of the Bible, partly because that version is the most readily research-able and available online. I've also heard it's the most accurate of English language Bible translations available in America.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bible summary, from Christianity's perspective:


God created Man.
God loved and loves Man.
Man, intended to have a long-lasting relationship with God,
is given dominion over the Earth.

Lucifer deceives Man into taking action that, ultimately, will prove fatal for the whole line of Man.

Through procreation, mankind manages to survive, even though individual men do not. Death reigns continually now, but so does life.

Lucifer sets out to destroy the surviving descendants.
Lucifer has enormous power, perhaps enough to destroy the entirety of mankind outright. But he is not permitted to do so.
God prevents it.

However, in the pattern of "The King is dead, long live the King", Lucifer, having effectively wrested Adam's birthright from him, becomes ruler of the world.

God enacts a plan to reconcile mankind to Himself.

Lucifer tries to thwart this plan, still having the eventual goal of mankind's complete annihilation.



Lucifer continues to manifest in various guises, even as he did once before, sometimes receiving praise and worship from man,
alternately harassing him with plagues and calamity.


At some point, in heaven itself, there is direct battle.

Lucifer and the forces arrayed with him are defeated.
Once a son of God, and perhaps the pinnacle of creation,
Lucifer is cast down like lightning from heaven, and largely or wholly confined to Earth.

Knowing he has a relatively short time, Lucifer redoubles his efforts to deceive as many people as he can.
Lucifer even uses counterfeit "Christ" figures, whom he empowers supernaturally. The AntiChrist or "Beast" is one of these.
At the same time, Lucifer manifests more and more as Dragon or Destroyer.


Eventually a point is reached where the direct intervention of God Himself occurs.
Lucifer and all those who have allied with him, despite the apparent power many think they wield at present, are finally defeated.

Digi
*looks around*

facepalm

bluewaterrider
Digi, with as much time as you yourself spend hanging around and contributing to religious topics on KMC forums of all types, don't you think it a little hypocritical to slam a thread concerned with pointing out that DC writers incorporate a significant degree of material derived from religious sources?

What exactly are you symbolically shaking your head about?

Digi
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Digi, with as much time as you yourself spend hanging around and contributing to religious topics on KMC forums of all types, don't you think it a little hypocritical to slam a thread concerned with pointing out that DC writers incorporate a significant degree of material derived from religious sources?

What exactly are you symbolically shaking your head about?

The fact that you can't seem to arrive at a concise point despite pages of posts. The fact that your initial premise involves a speculative article from over a decade ago as your only outside evidence. The fact that your central thesis (as I understand it) involves so many writers, artists, executives, editorial boards, managing interests, screenwriters, directors, actors, cultural trends, and years, that the collective effort needed to make this kind of thing happen - and keep it a secret from the general public - would shame many world governments in terms of total man-hours. The fact that you pull from such varied sources that my temporary admiration of your research is overwhelmed by the inexplicable confusion that you would attempt to construct a coherent argument from them. And the fact that nowhere in your analysis do you seem to give more than lip service to the possibility that one of numerous less outlandish explanations may explain everything you're presenting.

At least religious or political conspiracy theories deal with things that people dedicate their lives to in a deeply spiritual sense. Though most of those fall on their faces in similarly flawed ways, at least the realm in which the theories reside lend them the facade of plausibility.

So...that. Also, it would only be hypocritical if my position here didn't match my opinions in the religious forum. That you use religion as a debating point, and that I post in the religion forum, is a shoddy link to accuse me of hypocrisy, and I'm a little concerned that you think it's a valid rebuttal of my dismissal here.

In short, some of your observations - that religious imagery is used occasionally - is uncontroversial (it's been happening for decades in all forms of media). The conclusions you draw, however, or rather the conclusions you imply in an oddly roundabout way, are absurd.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Digi
... you can't seem to arrive at a concise point despite pages of posts.

I thought my general point for this thread, outlined on page 1, and repeated several times since then, was and is about as concise as any thread topic:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Comic industry characters and scripts seem to be reflective of, and are perhaps to some degree influenced by, lesser known Judeo-Christian writings. This is perhaps to be expected given the background of the people who originally created the industry to begin with."


I'm understanding the format of KMC threads to be one where, as a matter of course, discussion with other people is involved, questions are asked, evidence is presented, arguments and counterarguments exchanged.

That doesn't happen in one page, or one day.
You can look at your average versus thread and find threads that have literally DOZENS of pages.

Mine is problematic, despite over 500 views garnered during the low attended HOLIDAY season of KMC, and numerous exchanges, because it has reached all of THREE pages in 10 days?

bluewaterrider
I see you edited your original post.

Let's explore this last sentence you wrote.


Originally posted by Digi
The conclusions you draw ... or rather the conclusions you imply in an oddly roundabout way, are absurd.

Answer for me precisely, please:

What conclusions do you think I'm implying that are so very absurd?

Please give me specifics from this thread. One or two at the least.

Digi
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I thought my general point for this thread, outlined on page 1, and repeated several times since then, was and is about as concise as any thread topic:

Heh. You also repeatedly said you needed time to unveil the full argument on numerous occasions, and that it would "make more sense" in time. Mixed signals, at best. But this is a pedantic trapping, ignoring the problems with your arguments.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm understanding the format of KMC threads to be one where, as a matter of course, discussion with other people is involved, questions are asked, evidence is presented, arguments and counterarguments exchanged.

That doesn't happen in one page, or one day.
You can look at your average versus thread and find threads that have literally DOZENS of pages.

And 3/4 of vs. forum comments are 2-3 words. Not a great example.

Also, yes, evidence (or lack thereof) is presented, and arguments are exchanged. I presented some reasons I think your arguments are crap. You're telling me how debate works on KMC.

srug

...

In any case, if your quoted line is your thesis, I'm dubious. Because A. you say stuff like this in your OP:
"Where IS the creative staff of DC coming up with this stuff?
Is it the direction of it's own leadership, or that of Warner Bros?"

And B. the thread title contains the ludicrous question of whether or not these characters are heralds of the Luciferian Age, whatever the hell that means.

You're NOT just saying there's some Christian references. If you were, you wouldn't be asking such leading questions and making statements that go WAY beyond your "thesis" into the realm of massive movements toward a specific purpose. So either drop the BS and say what you mean, or stop being so melodramatic that we have no chance of understanding you properly.

Btw, everyone knows about Christ references in Superman. His origin story is practically a Sci-fi version of the Gospel stories, and obvious, blatant Christ allusions are everywhere in his work. It's an accepted part of the character, and a writer crutch to convey meaning and allegory. But it's not an underground secret waiting to be unearthed, (or a sign of Satanic influences in the DC ownership, while we're dismissing obvious stretches).

Digi
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Answer for me precisely, please:

What conclusions do you think I'm implying that are so very absurd?

Please give me specifics from this thread. One or two at the least.

Anything beyond "some Christian references exist in DC stories." Any conclusion beyond that. Absurd.

Because you ask a lot of questions and write in vague ways that imply things but never state them outright. It's a handy thing that allows you to backtrack when necessary. But it's clear you're getting at much more. But anything past that statement above.

So you want a specific one? Sure. Supergirl as a herald of the Luciferian Age. Your evidence is not evidence, your outside sources aren't connected in any meaningful way, the Luciferian Age is a meaningless term as you attempt to use it, and the laughable gap between your examples, and the hundreds of different people involved, makes the argument dead in the water.

Writers write stories, Christian symbols aren't anything new in any media form (especially explicit Christ-like characters like Kal), and people can find patterns anywhere if they look hard enough...even where they don't exist. And readers enjoy "darker" stories than they did decades ago, a trend that has influenced numerous mediums. That's all this is.

Katniss Everdeen gets a Christ pose and some allegorical Biblical elements in her latest movie. As I said, writer crutch. Care to add her to your thesis?

Digi
Ask yourself what the motivation is for a DC exec to make Superman the anti-christ? What motivation, despite decades of interviews and stories that portray him as a good character, and writers specifically trying to tap into the positive potential of the Superman mythos?

Second, execs control direction, but not individual stories. What is the motivation for Joe Writer, doing his 9-to-5 and attempting to make a living for his family writing Superman stories? What's his motivation for making the DC mythos Satanic? Are writers instructed to do this? Where's the evidence of it? What's the monetary benefit of trying to make a secular comic company a herald of satanism? How does this trend stay alive as writers, directors, etc. leave the company? How do they convince each movie director, each writer, to portray this, even as the entire company overhauls itself and its staff over time (turnover rates at comic companies are ridiculous)? What's the endgame? And why has no one ever talked about this who has worked on a DC book?

And if you're going to contradict yourself and say that you don't think Superman is Satanic, why did you post the article saying exactly that in your OP?

Provide plausible answers to those and I will start to take your argument seriously.

bluewaterrider
Man.

I don't recall any response you've made to anyone else that had such a degree of energy to it, but I thank you for giving it, just the same.

I plan to answer your posts throughout the course of this thread.

Your last one, given a minute or two ago, I might answer in a few minutes.

The first I'll divide up right now (no answers, just all your major points) so it can be responded to either at present or relatively soon, point-by-point. Note that the last point of your original (edited first post is omitted because it is the bulk of your second post all its own:


Originally posted by Digi
your initial premise involves a speculative article from over a decade ago as your only outside evidence.

Originally posted by Digi
your central thesis (as I understand it) involves so many writers, artists, executives, editorial boards, managing interests, screenwriters, directors, actors, cultural trends, and years, that the collective effort needed to make this kind of thing happen - and keep it a secret from the general public - would shame many world governments in terms of total man-hours.

Originally posted by Digi
you pull from such varied sources that my temporary admiration of your research is overwhelmed by the inexplicable confusion that you would attempt to construct a coherent argument from them.

Originally posted by Digi
nowhere in your analysis do you seem to give more than lip service to the possibility that one of numerous less outlandish explanations may explain everything you're presenting.


Originally posted by Digi

At least religious or political conspiracy theories deal with things that people dedicate their lives to in a deeply spiritual sense. Though most of those fall on their faces in similarly flawed ways, at least the realm in which the theories reside lend them the facade of plausibility.



Originally posted by Digi

Also, it would only be hypocritical if my position here didn't match my opinions in the religious forum. That you use religion as a debating point, and that I post in the religion forum, is a shoddy link to accuse me of hypocrisy, and I'm a little concerned that you think it's a valid rebuttal of my dismissal here.


Originally posted by Digi

... some of your observations - that religious imagery is used occasionally - is uncontroversial (it's been happening for decades in all forms of media) ...

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Digi
Ask yourself what the motivation is for a DC exec to make Superman the anti-christ? What motivation, despite decades of interviews and stories that portray him as a good character, and writers specifically trying to tap into the positive potential of the Superman mythos?



Luciferian heroes aren't (usually) outwardly "bad" characters.

And the script makes for a good storyline.



Originally posted by Digi

Second, execs control direction, but not individual stories. What is the motivation for Joe Writer, doing his 9-to-5 and attempting to make a living for his family writing Superman stories? What's his motivation for making the DC mythos Satanic?

Not Satanic, per se. Luciferian.
The appearance is often quite different.
Luciferian often looks quite Christ-like.




Originally posted by Digi
Are writers instructed to do this? Where's the evidence of it? What's the monetary benefit of trying to make a secular comic company a herald of satanism? How does this trend stay alive as writers, directors, etc. leave the company? How do they convince each movie director, each writer, to portray this, even as the entire company overhauls itself and its staff over time (turnover rates at comic companies are ridiculous)? What's the endgame? And why has no one ever talked about this who has worked on a DC book?

And if you're going to contradict yourself and say that you don't think Superman is Satanic, why did you post the article saying exactly that in your OP?

Provide plausible answers to those and I will start to take your argument seriously.

You're giving a hard form to answer.
I can do it, but it's hard to show things that are visually based without actually showing the visuals. Which I'm gradually doing. But it takes time.

Maybe for you it doesn't, but you're a lot more practiced at this.

Again, we're talking a language largely based on symbols. Symbols tend to propagate themselves. So do characters.

Put them in the appropriate situation and a story writes itself.

Have someone scream for "Help" as a mugger with a gun runs from a woman with her purse and what happens if Superman is on the scene? Ultraman? Batman? Hulk? Venom?

The action is all but predetermined.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Digi
your initial premise involves a speculative article from over a decade ago as your only outside evidence.

That article deals primarily with Superman. My focus is larger.
I actually came to this topic because of what I noticed going on with OTHER characters. Superman's just a starting point, one that's already been written on.
I figured that article, backed up already with some research, would save me some typing time.

Originally posted by Digi
your central thesis (as I understand it) involves so many writers, artists, executives, editorial boards, managing interests, screenwriters, directors, actors, cultural trends, and years, that the collective effort needed to make this kind of thing happen - and keep it a secret from the general public - would shame many world governments in terms of total man-hours.

Make WHAT kind of thing happen exactly?

Originally posted by Digi
you pull from such varied sources that my temporary admiration of your research is overwhelmed by the inexplicable confusion that you would attempt to construct a coherent argument from them.

Ultimately, if you're saying this is too big a topic to tackle for one thread, you might be right. I don't think you are, but you might be. Unlike you, however, I was NEVER thinking this would be short or involve little discussion.

Originally posted by Digi
nowhere in your analysis do you seem to give more than lip service to the possibility that one of numerous less outlandish explanations may explain everything you're presenting.


There's no real way to respond to "seem to", is there?
Your perceptions are your own. But I invited people on page one to offer what you term "less outlandish explanations". I really don't see why I should concern myself with trying to make the counterarguments I'm expecting from people, when, if they are there, and respond to this thread, they will do so on their own.


Originally posted by Digi

At least religious or political conspiracy theories deal with things that people dedicate their lives to in a deeply spiritual sense. Though most of those fall on their faces in similarly flawed ways, at least the realm in which the theories reside lend them the facade of plausibility.


I'm not sure where this is relevant to much.
Then, too, on one level, I find it nearly astonishing we're talking about "plausibility" concerning the subject matter COMIC BOOK writers concern themselves with.

Serious question: If you wanted to deconstruct symbolism in visual medium when people don't know even the basics, how would YOU go about it?


Originally posted by Digi

Also, it would only be hypocritical if my position here didn't match my opinions in the religious forum. That you use religion as a debating point, and that I post in the religion forum, is a shoddy link to accuse me of hypocrisy, and I'm a little concerned that you think it's a valid rebuttal of my dismissal here.


You normally immediately dismiss people when talking about what you think are religious topics with a "shaking my head" icon?


Originally posted by Digi

some of your observations - that religious imagery is used occasionally - is uncontroversial (it's been happening for decades in all forms of media).

You follow this by saying

Originally posted by Digi
Anything beyond "some Christian references exist in DC stories." Any conclusion beyond that. Absurd.


Does that mean saying references from Greek religions are absurd? Roman ones? Pagan ones? What about those that closely resemble Christianity but are different in several important aspects?

I seriously doubt you've actually considered what you're saying here.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery




I covered Snake Imagery on the first or second page.
I haven't presented much (Anti)Christ Imagery.



Brian Azarrello's "For Tomorrow" series might be a good place to start:

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery





(Anti)Christ Imagery


Donna Troy in "The Beast has come" scan of Countdown #13.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/opzs6g.jpg

Father Leone. Antichrist Scene. Beginning of Superman #210v2.
"For Tomorrow". Brian Azarrello
http://oi40.tinypic.com/290ztzp.jpg

Man of Steel. Watery Crucifix Pose. After saving oil rig workers.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/1z68fw9.jpg

Man of Steel. Costumed Crucifix Pose in space.
http://oi42.tinypic.com/judf9h.jpg

Superman Returns. Crucifix Pose. After Kisland release.
http://oi41.tinypic.com/dnejr8.jpg

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by roughrider


What Superman did while being possessed or mind controlled has no bearing on his character, like when he was brainwashed into doing with Big Barda (did you miss that one ... ? big grin )


None of what I outlined in my first posts, or, indeed at any point to the present in this thread, dealt with Superman when he was possessed, mind controlled, or brainwashed. All was featured either in the movies, or in the mainstream comics of the times.


First time around, I DID miss that episode with Barda.

In fact, that is one thing that has me hopeful that I can achieve my goal now. For when I originally encountered someone telling me of this, that DC actually published a comic like that years ago, I thought the person was crazy, severely misremembering, or making stuff up.

Then, that person used my own format, unusual for the forum we were in at the time, and showed me scans of the comic he was talking about.

Actually, it wasn't to me directly, but to another group of posters he was arguing with at the time. Again, visuals weren't the norm on that forum, in fact, I was the only one noted for them, but that particular poster, using my method ...

Well, I was awestruck to say the least, though I'm not sure I ever told him so.
I remember that experience even now, though it is many years later.


But my job is a little harder than that. What I'm dealing with to large degree is interpretation. It's like trying to explain the other side of a dual optical illusion.
If the other person doesn't see it, how can you make it so that he can?
How do you explain it to him if he's predetermined to see only one side?



In the meantime, though, so other people will know what we are talking about with that whole Big Barda thing:

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/off-my-mind-what-happened-to-superman-big-bardas-s/1100-144019/

Digi
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Man.

I don't recall any response you've made to anyone else that had such a degree of energy to it, but I thank you for giving it, just the same.

Heh. I don't get out of my casual debating pajamas too often these days. I'll play nice though. I think you're entirely misguided here, but you're being civil. Kudos.

I would like to point out, though, that you listed my questions but addressed, well, none of them so far. They all represent large gaps in your logic. I don't mind addressing a topic I think is outlandish, if it is sincerely held, but I lose patience if concerns and questions are ignored.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not Satanic, per se. Luciferian.
The appearance is often quite different.
Luciferian often looks quite Christ-like.

So do good superheroes. Especially ones with obvious references to Christ built int their origin. And that's the problem. You're forcing a highly unlikely argument - bordering on impossible imo - when a far easier explanation is sitting right in front of you. You're jamming a square peg into the round hole that the square is starting to look round to you.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That article deals primarily with Superman. My focus is larger.
I actually came to this topic because of what I noticed going on with OTHER characters. Superman's just a starting point, one that's already been written on.
I figured that article, backed up already with some research, would save me some typing time.

But it DOES say Superman is the anti-christ. Maybe you have other points, but you haven't retracted that article. On one side, there's decades of writers trying to write an essentially good character who represents heroism. Mountains of evidence. That's what you're up against to start making sense with your theory.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Make WHAT kind of thing happen exactly?

Make Superman the anti-christ. Or the DC mythos "Luciferian"

Because you're pulling from different characters, different titles, different writers, different creative teams, different editorial boards, even different mediums. Are you saying they're all in on this?! Or that they're somehow being guided by a person or influence to create a Luciferian mythos? Either is laughably ludicrous.

Or something else? Because any variations of those suppositions is ridiculous.

And again, the round peg is sitting right beside you. Dark stories are the norm these days, and there's only so many story permutations in comics, and it's ALL loosely based originally on myths of some sort (Christian or otherwise). But your Luciferian square peg is the only thing you're considering.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ultimately, if you're saying this is too big a topic to tackle for one thread, you might be right. I don't think you are, but you might be. Unlike you, however, I was NEVER thinking this would be short or involve little discussion.

You have an odd sense of verbose importance with this. (almost) Nothing can't be stated in an easily digestible format. That you've been meandering for pages is a lack of cohesion, not the enormity of the theory. I'm not asking for every reference at once. I'm asking for a reasonably comprehensive abstract that states your case, accounts for criticisms, and can be used as a jumping off point for discussion.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There's no real way to respond to "seem to", is there?
Your perceptions are your own. But I invited people on page one to offer what you term "less outlandish explanations". I really don't see why I should concern myself with trying to make the counterarguments I'm expecting from people, when, if they are there, and respond to this thread, they will do so on their own.

Not make the counterarguments yourself, but address them. Anticipate them. Also, you should WANT to account for other possible explanations, even make some yourself. It builds a fuller argument, and doesn't give the sense that you're closed off from entertaining other possibilities.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Serious question: If you wanted to deconstruct symbolism in visual medium when people don't know even the basics, how would YOU go about it?

Explaining symbols isn't hard. You're not talking over anyone's head here. They just aren't reaching the same conclusions. But if there is some "basics" you think we fail to grasp, it's your job to explain it, not ours to discern it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You normally immediately dismiss people when talking about what you think are religious topics with a "shaking my head" icon?

I'm normally uncompromising when I perceive the misapplication of critical thought, dogged conspiratorial thinking that has many more plausible explanations, and theories strung together by hopelessly tenuous links.

And yes, sometimes that manifests as a facepalm . I think you'll agree I've sufficiently extrapolated on my emoticon, however. wink

As ever, it's the ideas I'm against. Not you. My uncompromising stance, and using words like "absurd" can have a detrimental affect on debate. But I'd be disingenuous if I said otherwise. But you're a longtime poster with no warning record. I disagree with, well, most of this. But I hope my tone isn't misconstrued as personal antagonism.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Does that mean saying references from Greek religions are absurd? Roman ones? Pagan ones? What about those that closely resemble Christianity but are different in several important aspects?

I seriously doubt you've actually considered what you're saying here.

No. When I said "anything beyond that statement" I was talking about Luciferian stuff. I was talking about the claims you seem to be making, or at least implying. Obviously I wasn't saying it's absurd to think there are pagan symbols in comics (and characters, frankly...I mean, Thor's a thing). Those are observations, not interpretations (although sometimes, even the observations may be tainted by your looking for specifically religious symbols...whether or not they always exist where you think they do).

bluewaterrider
Happy New Year.

bluewaterrider
So.


I thought a bit about your comments, Digi.

And I did a bit more research.

And, realizing some of the premises you're probably preceding from, I decided to go on and begin my Tuesday update early for this week.


The problem, I am still fairly certain, one of the MAIN problems, at least, is that you have a very different definition of "Luciferian" than I.
I considered that you are an atheist, likely have experience with the term only from forums like this and secular sources, but practically none from the book that actually originated the term.

And how does the secular world define "Luciferian" ... ?



Like so:
---------------------------------
(from Merriam Webster dotcom)

Luciferian


of, relating to, or worthy of an evil spirit <the movie's villain wore a Luciferian expression of supreme confidence>
Synonyms cacodemonic, demoniac (also demoniacal), demonian, demonic (also demonical), devilish, diabolical (or diabolic), Luciferian, satanic
Related Words hellish, infernal; baleful, evil, sinister; malevolent, malicious, malignant; heinous, monstrous; black, immoral, iniquitous, nefarious, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked; barbarous, cruel, ferocious, inhuman, savage
Near Antonyms celestial, heavenly; beneficent, benevolent, benign, benignant; godly, holy, sainted, saintly; ethical, good, moral, righteous, virtuous
Antonyms angelic (or angelical)

-----------------------------------
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/luciferian

bluewaterrider
It's easy to see how you can conclude, wrongly considering the above to be the way I'M using "Luciferian", or indeed even the way Luciferian probably SHOULD be defined, my premise to be absurd.

"Evil ... sinister ... diabolical ... (etcetera) ... ? Supergirl and Superman and Wonder Woman and other heroes are nothing like that, right?

As I've been stating from page 1, however, that's NOT what Luciferian looks like.

Today (Tuesday) I plan to spend some time outlining and illustrating what Luciferian actually DOES look like, and how closely the comics adhere to Luciferian AS THE TERM IS USED IN ITS BOOK OF ORIGIN.


Here will be my basic outline for the day.
I think you will find some of your questions being answered as I go through this program. I see your name listed as a moderator for this forum.
Perhaps, at the appropriate time, you can even help me edit this thread for greater clarity and organization.

In the meantime:





1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12

2. Characteristics of Lucifer, according TO the source of the word "Lucifer".

3. Luciferianism versus Satanism

4. Lucifer as Angel of Light and Prince of the power of the air. Light, sun, and lightning.

5. Prevalence of lightning symbolism in the occult, Rock, Heavy metal, etc.

6. Representation of lightning that even the secular world knows --
the Nazi SS or Schutzstaffel (Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel).

7. Lightning symbolism and empowerment in popular culture.
He-Man and She-ra. Captain Marvel. Mary Marvel. Freddy Marvel.
Shazam. Black Adam. Black Mary Marvel. Captain Nazi.
(JLA Axis deserves a special mention.)
And recall now that the original was Captain Marvel, brainwashed.
Silver Age source of power for The Flash.
Design for the so-called "Crest of El" shield of Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider
This page will probably be the final text-heavy section of the thread.

If you actually read through some of this, you should begin to see the relevance of some of the images previously posted.



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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205&version=AKJV

1 John 5

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness*. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

(One translation has: "all creation lies in the power of the wicked one"wink

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204&version=AKJV

Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 and saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

(confirmation. Satan, according to this Bible passage at least, is current ruler of the world)

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010&version=AKJV

Luke 10

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

(Satan as lightning fall from heaven)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20corinthians%204&version=AKJV

2 Corinthians 4


3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

(Satan, according to the New Testament of the Bible, is, or at least was at the time of Jesus, the god of this world)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%209&version=AKJV

Revelation 9

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

(Apollo)

bluewaterrider
Note that the terms and motifs of beast, dragon, serpent, antichrist, light, and lightning have all referred in these passages nearly exclusively to Satan.
Note that the "evil" or "monstrous" or "demonic" incarnations of Satan happen nearly exclusively at the very end of the Bible program outlined by me a page or so ago. Initially, in fact for a very long term, he presents as everything that is light, and awe-inspiring, and beautiful instead. Satan as Lucifer, the Light Bearer/Light Bringer. Not Satan as he comes to mind for the average American.





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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013

Revelation 13

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

(the dragon gave (The Beast) his power)

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A44-45&version=AKJV

John 8:44-45

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012&version=AKJV


Revelation 12

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

(serpent, satan, dragon, Lucifer, all names of the devil, who deceiveth the whole world)

bluewaterrider
Here again is the program I plan to cover today.
Note that I've now gone through the lined out portions, for the most part ...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12

2. Characteristics of Lucifer, according TO the source of the word.

3. Luciferianism versus Satanism

4. Lucifer as Angel of Light and Prince of the power of the air. Light, sun, and lightning.

5. Prevalence of lightning symbolism in the occult, Rock, Heavy metal, etc.

6. Representation of lightning that even the secular world knows --
the Nazi SS or Schutzstaffel (Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel).

7. Lightning symbolism and empowerment in popular culture.
He-Man and She-ra. Captain Marvel. Mary Marvel. Freddy Marvel.
Shazam. Black Adam. Black Mary Marvel. Captain Nazi.
(JLA Axis deserves a special mention.)
And recall now that the original was Captain Marvel, brainwashed.
Silver Age source of power for The Flash.
Design for the so-called "Crest of El" shield of Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So.

#5.

The prevalence of lightning symbolism in the occult, Rock, Heavy Metal, etcera.

I'm wary of posting this.
Overall, it's not particularly pleasant stuff.
A simple Google "Image" search of the terms "satan lightning" and/or "ss lightning" will suffice to show anything I could display here.
I don't know KMC policy on posting that sort of thing, even as part of a fairly academic discussion.

It will call up some images that trigger some VERY strong feelings and reactions from some people. I debated including an outside Image Host Provider (IHP) to create a link NOT immediately viewable and a warning that people might be offended by what they see.
For the time being, instead, though, I will leave those 2 simple phrases for people to Google on their own.

I'll link instead to the following ...

Digi, if you want to argue absurdity, that's one thing.
My point is that, whether there is anything to the occult, or, indeed, anything to religion at all, matters little. People believe there is something to it.

And they adopt symbols.
And those symbols may be adapted and transmitted by others.

And it doesn't matter whether or not those people understand what those symbols mean or meant, and it doesn't much matter if they know where the symbols derive from. It doesn't change their origin. It doesn't much change the fact of them.


Look up the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider
Digi,

If you looked up those terms "Satan, lightning" and "SS Lightning",
you should have noticed that the Nazi "SS" appeared as a "Satan, lightning" hit.

If you read the "Runic Insignia of the SS" excerpt I just posted from Wikipedia, you learned that the Nazis adopted occult, i.e. what many would consider Satanic, imagery.

I didn't directly post images of those for reasons that should be apparent to you as moderator.

However, as this is a comic forum, I don't have quite the same compunction against posting comic scans, especially from DC's own Wikia.

Recall again:

" ... I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven ..."
and
"I ... saw a beast ... the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority ..."



You can get a fairly clear sense of how many of the aforementioned things come together, probably in an instant, if you examine the scan I'm including here.

Notice that this is only one scan.
There are many more to follow.

Notice that this is a special case, not the general one.
I am well aware of that.
But symbolism doesn't rely on exact tellings to communicate to people.
The general case ECHOES this special case.
And, as I'll show as this thread progresses, the general case is becoming more and more like this "special" case every day.

bluewaterrider
.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Digi
Ask yourself what the motivation is for a DC exec to make Superman the anti-christ? What motivation, despite decades of interviews and stories that portray him as a good character, and writers specifically trying to tap into the positive potential of the Superman mythos?

Second, execs control direction, but not individual stories. What is the motivation for Joe Writer, doing his 9-to-5 and attempting to make a living for his family writing Superman stories? What's his motivation for making the DC mythos Satanic? Are writers instructed to do this? Where's the evidence of it? What's the monetary benefit of trying to make a secular comic company a herald of satanism? How does this trend stay alive as writers, directors, etc. leave the company? How do they convince each movie director, each writer, to portray this, even as the entire company overhauls itself and its staff over time (turnover rates at comic companies are ridiculous)? What's the endgame? And why has no one ever talked about this who has worked on a DC book?

And if you're going to contradict yourself and say that you don't think Superman is Satanic, why did you post the article saying exactly that in your OP?

Provide plausible answers to those and I will start to take your argument seriously.


Let's get a little more serious, then.

Digi, you seem to be under the impression that central planning is required to make a thing work. Or even conscious participation from the majority of its participating members. In many cases, this is not so, nor do you really believe that it is.

Evolution should be an easy enough proof for you that you don't.
You reject the "central planning" theory that "God did it" in favor of, well,
fill-in-the-blank.

Another easy enough proof for you? How about "The Invisible Hand of Economics"? Is there nearly the degree of central planning involved in feeding the populace of the world everyday that the student who has NOT had macroecon might otherwise think?

Some things, aided by people's natural thinking and behavior, effectively shape themselves.

And, again, we are talking the language of symbols. You don't seem to BEGIN to recognize the power and influence they have.

Here, perhaps the following will make clearer to you and others that you DON'T need to be consciously following a program for it to affect you and the work you produce to the extent people might otherwise think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ

bluewaterrider
The connection between Satan and empowerment via lightning occurs a lot in popular culture. The following, a rather disturbing short that seems to echo Satan as a Gnostic creation named Yaldabaoth, features this at the 2 minute 10 second mark:

(again, be warned, this one has proven a little unsettling for some people)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpaRouocBes
(The Mysterious Stranger, Mark Twain, Claymation)


... this more familiar cartoon clip features it around the 30 second mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeA7a0uS3A
(Masters of the Universe Opening Theme, He-Man, Filmation)

bluewaterrider
The format of a KMC thread doesn't readily betray the passage of time.
Here is what was presented last night:


1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12

2. Characteristics of Lucifer, according TO the source of the word "Lucifer".

3. Luciferianism versus Satanism

4. Lucifer as Angel of Light and Prince of the power of the air. Light, sun, and lightning.

5. Prevalence of lightning symbolism in the occult, Rock, Heavy metal, etc.

6. Representation of lightning that even the secular world knows --
the Nazi SS or Schutzstaffel (Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel).


... and this morning I've covered up now to #7.


Digi, I would very much appreciate knowing if you still have editing ability.
This thread could use some condensation at a later point.

For now, going on the assumption that you cannot, I will avoid posting any direct links to more controversial visual subject matter.
I'm referring now to the results Google Imaging "satan, lightning", and "ss, lightning" would yield, of course.

They are vital to understanding the form this takes in the comics and media; anyone unwilling to Google that much for the sake of understanding this portion of the thread should probably quit reading, but I'll avoid posting them until I get some feedback from you.


7. Lightning symbolism and empowerment in popular culture.

He-Man. Captain Marvel. Mary Marvel. Freddy Marvel.
Shazam. Black Adam. Black Mary Marvel. Captain Nazi.
(JLA Axis deserves a special mention.)
And recall now that the original was Captain Marvel, brainwashed.
Silver Age source of power for The Flash.
Design for the so-called "Crest of El" shield of Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.


I italicized He-Man because that will be the visual focus for this particular post.
Think I might drop this format immediately AFTER this post, and just present images concerning the characters listed.

Earlier I showed the opening scene of Masters of the Universe via YouTube.
The following images are screen captures.

Note that He-Man, a cartoon that has engendered more than one charge that it promotes the occult, has echoes of 1940s Germany symbolism.

To get a clearer idea of what I mean, Google "SS cross rune". Then examine the following.

Please note, in advance, that I am NOT necessarily saying He-Man, blond-haired blue-eyed Aryan "UberMensch" though he might resemble, is any form of Nazi propoganda.

I am saying rather that there is quite a bit of symbolism present in He-Man, and Nazi ideology, and DC's (originally Fawcett's) "Shazam" line, and many of DC's other characters that echo unmistakeably the "Satan ... lightning" reference touched on before and everything surrounding it.




http://oi42.tinypic.com/2nlu8va.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/ilhf6x.jpg
http://oi39.tinypic.com/34imra0.jpg

janus77
The S stands for Satan, I take it?

janus77
I always thought that the Galactus - Surfer relationship had shades of the mainstream Christian God - Satan relationship.

More so if you take Kirby's words literally and see Galactus as The Biblical God.

Surfer rebels against his creator, is cast down, lives amongst man and turned Alicia Masters from the straight and narrow path! yes


As for the term "Judeo-Christian", isn't that, at the very least, somewhat a contradiction in terms. Judaism awaits its Messiah, disregards Jesus (at the very least, worse still if you read the talmudic commentaries on him) and sees itself as having an exclusive and elevated relationship with the One True Greybeard.

Christianity is a rejection of that exclusive connection, an expansion of the franchise (and, from an outsider's point of view, a simplification too).

Regardless, it seems obvious that the Superman-as-Jesus thing had to eventually end, for the sake of commercial and cultural relevance if not anything more subversive.

People, in large numbers, no longer take these stories as all that sacred or meaningful, so the power of those symbolic relationships wane too.

This all seems a little too forced.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by janus77
I always thought that the Galactus - Surfer relationship had shades of the mainstream Christian God - Satan relationship.

More so if you take Kirby's words literally and see Galactus as The Biblical God.

Surfer rebels against his creator, is cast down, lives amongst man and turned Alicia Masters from the straight and narrow path! yes

Minus the Alicia Masters part, I can't tell if you're fully joking.
I HAVE actually read somewhere that Kirby said something like that.

Moreover, what you're saying, though it might be heretical to Christianity, is actually perfectly inline with what Gnostics believe, which is that the God of the Old Testament is actually a demonic half-deity named Yaldabaoth, and that the serpent, Satan, is actually the enlightener and true teacher of Man.

Not coincidentally, this is, from what I've read, what Luciferians also believe.

Originally posted by janus77

As for the term "Judeo-Christian", isn't that, at the very least, somewhat a contradiction in terms? Judaism awaits its Messiah, disregards Jesus (at the very least, worse still if you read the talmudic commentaries on him) and sees itself as having an exclusive and elevated relationship with the One True Greybeard.

Christianity is a rejection of that exclusive connection, an expansion of the franchise (and, from an outsider's point of view, a simplification too).


Christianity is based upon Judaism, though.
It did not come into existence on its own.
And the idea of Lucifer comes from Judaic writings.


Originally posted by janus77

Regardless, it seems obvious that the Superman-as-Jesus thing had to eventually end, for the sake of commercial and cultural relevance if not anything more subversive.


Superman-as-Jesus has ended? confused
Have you SEEN the most recent Superman film, Man of Steel?



Originally posted by janus77

People, in large numbers, no longer take these stories as all that sacred or meaningful, so the power of those symbolic relationships wane too.

This all seems a little too forced.

I haven't shown the bulk of visual material that inspired me to post this thread and ask the title question.
Answer for me, though, honestly, have you examined most of the things I've posted here yet? I wouldn't think most people had based on the simple fact that I posted URLs instead of blue links. Part of the reason I did that was because I knew editing would be required and links posted as links here on KMC are automatically "contracted", so they won't neatly copy and paste like they would elsewhere. I'm also waiting for Digi to get back to me and tell me whether or not the simple Google Image search results (for "satan, lightning" and "ss, lightning", etcetera) are erasable by him in case someone thinks they are too incendiary for this forum.

As for people no longer taking these stories sacredly or meaningfully, I agree.
In fact, I would argue that most people in America, unlike several decades ago, are not even able to recognize that these stories ARE being symbolized, for they don't KNOW any of the stories anymore.

bluewaterrider
http://oi41.tinypic.com/de5mr5.jpg
electric blue superman

http://oi43.tinypic.com/30lm0jt.jpg
captain marvel excises a rock of eternity spirit

http://oi40.tinypic.com/1zlvggj.jpg
serpent coil appearing during adora's she-ra tranformation

http://oi40.tinypic.com/295ejbm.jpg
black adam, freddy marvel, or captain marvel?

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2cynqdz.jpg
billy batson held by black adam, dcnu

http://oi39.tinypic.com/o6h35x.jpg
alex ross style print. of black adam, mary marvel and isis. with magical green lightning coiling serpent-like around mary ...

http://oi39.tinypic.com/mrfk11.jpg
she-ra transformation sequence. notice not only the energy snake coiling around the top of her blade, but the skull imagery, darkness enveloping her even as the light shines around, and the circle of eternity forming

http://oi44.tinypic.com/33f7z3o.jpg
live action shot of captain marvel, isis, and black adam. cool to look at, but underscores the reality that the source for all 3 is essentially identical

http://oi42.tinypic.com/30tt6kh.jpg
Mary Marvel, flanked by Granny Goodness (and Eclipso?) Lightning empowerment.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2emojf7.jpg
black and white of Supergirl breaking steel chains. Cinar.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/vcqaz8.jpg
typhon versus marvel zeus

http://oi40.tinypic.com/1znmzo5.jpg
typhon gets a mountain dumped on him by marvel zeus. dualism.
note the insignia, however, on zeus belt buckle

http://oi44.tinypic.com/14v4efl.jpg
strife's arrival. the image of "satan falling like lightning" taken nearly as literally as possible. note that strife is not only trying to spread evil here, but, earlier, deceived the Amazons into killing one another by the score

http://oi43.tinypic.com/14104d4.jpg
the 3 classes of and representatives of lightning imageried DC heroes. Captain Marvel, Electric Superman, and Flash. Note carefully some of the dialogue ...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2je8n6x.jpg
electric blue Superman? McGuinness.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2nvf1jb.jpg
black adam. contrast with the image above

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2elbjhg.jpg
countdown teaser. note not only the lightning motif but the dialogue at the bottom, and the pose Lex Luthor has adopted

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2meei41.jpg
countdown #2 solicit and final covers. forerunner versus jla Axis.
note the lightning imagery and brightly illuminated background reflected by Batman's swatstika-rangs and the last word of the title itself ...

bluewaterrider
Occult Lightning empowerment, Part 2

http://oi40.tinypic.com/14o9ajb.jpg
DCnu Shazam cornucopia. Note that Billy receives his power from the same source as beasts and villains like Sivana and Black Adam.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/nq8cjl.jpg
traditional God-looking figure supplies power to the Marvels ...

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2ccwff7.jpg
mighty isis. mighty adam. over the course of many years, evil characters become sympathetic ...

http://oi40.tinypic.com/30hqw6c.jpg
white garbed Mary Marvel beats down Captain Atom

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2q0k8lj.jpg
power equaled loss of control or possession for Mary in the Final Crisis era

http://oi43.tinypic.com/4l0om1.jpg
compare the fate of this DCnU Black Adam victim to those of the girls prophesying in Wonder Woman (v6) #1

http://oi39.tinypic.com/148pvgk.jpg
sometimes Shazam, sometimes other "gods" or "goddesses" supply ...

http://oi42.tinypic.com/rst1fc.jpg
mary marvel. red outfit

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2mpk784.jpg
Talk about loaded. Baphomet Pentagram at Mary's feet, plus Lightning, AND Beast and Dragon and Demon imagery, all rolled into one.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i5daue.jpg
Mary in this outfit is essentially a black costumed witch

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2rzsx9k.jpg
Mary, once more in her early days, empowered directly by Pantheon figures

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2dmbn6o.jpg
possession. directly stated

http://oi42.tinypic.com/27xkr2w.jpg
Mary in Countdown to Final Crisis

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2qimjok.jpg
Mary Marvel, Isis, Black Adam, and Captain Marvel.
The Isis/Semiramis deity has a fairly prominent place in certain fields outside comics. As for Adam, well, he already looks like a Dracula figure ...

http://oi44.tinypic.com/11ah6jk.jpg
Black Mary versus Kyle Rayner and Donna Troy

http://oi39.tinypic.com/21ltqvk.jpg
Black Mary Marvel and DCnU Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.
In many ways these are mirror characters, even as some believe Mary inspired Kara's original real-world creation many years ago.

But Kara's a REAL special case ...

bluewaterrider
Seemed like I posted a lot of links today; got curious as to how many URLs I'd posted total. Figured it be somewhere around 40.

Actually, I was somewhat surprised to discover I've posted 98 URLs since the beginning of this thread.
Didn't realize it. Precisely BECAUSE they are URLs and not links.
Looks like a wall of text as compared to my goal of being an organized place people can go to for information and meat for discussion, I imagine.
Would explain why there's so much confusion.

Since Digi doesn't seem to be around, and I'm not sure if he could help me edit anything even if he were, I'll simply designate this page, or at least this portion of this particular page, as my editing page.
I'll list what I've got in plain text format, so everything is available at a glance.
(There's a character limit per post, so I'll have to split this up into two or three posts, though.)
Then I'll allow the "parse URLs" box to go unmolested.
That way people will be able not only to click where they want to go, it'll be blue so they can see that there are links in this thread to begin with.

This is already post 8 or some such because I took the time to answer Janus.
I'll begin outlining so that the next page can give an organized summary with supporting links, so that everything after this page can be as concise and clear and read-able as possible.

(That's the PLAN at least ...)

bluewaterrider
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/comics.php?topic=articles/superman-satan
(opening article. Superman as antiChrist.)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14564997
(Supergirl in Man of Steel movie style outfit. Serpentine Supergirl)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567120
(Marlon Brando S Shield)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlL2Jj-kCNU
(Noam Chomsky on the vital role of concision in the American Media)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567236
(10 cinar kryptonite nevermore supergirl strong chainbreak)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567261
(60 showcase superwoman comes to help)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567545
(10 one reason for the title)

------------------------------------- page 1 completed.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567588
(superman returns. christ crucified allusion)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682
(snakeskin image entry. google. christmas eve day 2013. bottom right corner ...)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567695
10 henry cavill. man of steel costume is blue snakeskin outfit)


This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery


There are enough images for an honest poster like Iopy to have food for thought, I think. Here are the URLs for those:


Snake Imagery


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567120

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567261

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14564997

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567695

------------------------------------------------- separate concept grouping


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567766
(superman family 174. supergirl villainesses. #5 is the truly interesting one ...)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567925
(countdownthirteen pagetwo supermanboy prime. described as ... the beast.)


-------------------------------------------------- separate concept


http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneducator/winter2009/hirsch.pdf





http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567766
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14570573
(satan girl secret revealed. adventure comics #409)


--------------------------------------------------- page 2 completed.




http://www.oldredjalopy.com/musings-on-man-of-steel/
(reviewer calling Zod killing scene in Man of Steel an execution)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14572835
(10 superman. vol 2. #22. john byrne. phantom zone criminals. execution.)



http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?56798-The-Luciferian-Superman-Comic-Book-Connection
(thread that defines "Luciferian hero" the way Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan and author of the Satanic Bible, apparently did)



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14573151
(little disconcerting to see this ... antimasonic ... coming up for my title in google hits)



Doctrines of Luciferian Gnosticism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_OZtVxNQtc
7 min 15 sec


Luciferianism VS Christianity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCQjQBqOz38
9 min 59 sec


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14574430
(10 apollo. apollyon. dcnu ... about to murder 3 women.)


http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/component/content/article/1-jwo/379-apollyon-bible-study.html


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14574437
(10 supergirl 74. dark angel in command of locusts destroys bizarrosatangirl. padapollyon)
Source of scan: Supergirl #74
Writer: Peter A. David
Circa: 2002


-------------------------------------------similar appearing character, ancient role
first was Apollo, Destroyer via locusts
this one is Apollo, sun of a King aka the sun god, aka Lucifer, son of the morning

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9si93.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/j7f792.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/sesgvb.jpg
http://oi43.tinypic.com/1e5lya.jpg
Source: Wonder Woman #1, Volume 5

--------------------------------------------------------------

bluewaterrider
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bible summary, from Christianity's perspective:


God created Man.
God loved and loves Man.
Man, intended to have a long-lasting relationship with God,
is given dominion over the Earth.

Lucifer deceives Man into taking action that, ultimately, will prove fatal for the whole line of Man.

Through procreation, mankind manages to survive, even though individual men do not. Death reigns continually now, but so does life.

Lucifer sets out to destroy the surviving descendants.
Lucifer has enormous power, perhaps enough to destroy the entirety of mankind outright. But he is not permitted to do so.
God prevents it.

However, in the pattern of "The King is dead, long live the King", Lucifer, having effectively wrested Adam's birthright from him, becomes ruler of the world.

God enacts a plan to reconcile mankind to Himself.

Lucifer tries to thwart this plan, still having the eventual goal of mankind's complete annihilation.



Lucifer continues to manifest in various guises, even as he did once before, sometimes receiving praise and worship from man,
alternately harassing him with plagues and calamity.


At some point, in heaven itself, there is direct battle.

Lucifer and the forces arrayed with him are defeated.
Once a son of God, and perhaps the pinnacle of creation,
Lucifer is cast down like lightning from heaven, and largely or wholly confined to Earth.

Knowing he has a relatively short time, Lucifer redoubles his efforts to deceive as many people as he can.
Lucifer even uses counterfeit "Christ" figures, whom he empowers supernaturally. The AntiChrist or "Beast" is one of these.
At the same time, Lucifer manifests more and more as Dragon or Destroyer.


Eventually a point is reached where the direct intervention of God Himself occurs.
Lucifer and all those who have allied with him, despite the apparent power many think they wield at present, are finally defeated.

-------------------------------------------------------------- page 3 completed.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14574879
(for tomorrow.father daniel leone. believe in me antichrist opening scene. superman210v2)


(Anti)Christ Imagery


Donna Troy in "The Beast has come" scan of Countdown #13.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/opzs6g.jpg

Father Leone. Antichrist Scene. Beginning of Superman #210v2.
"For Tomorrow". Brian Azarrello
http://oi40.tinypic.com/290ztzp.jpg

Man of Steel. Watery Crucifix Pose. After saving oil rig workers.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/1z68fw9.jpg

Man of Steel. Costumed Crucifix Pose in space.
http://oi42.tinypic.com/judf9h.jpg

Superman Returns. Crucifix Pose. After Kisland release.
http://oi41.tinypic.com/dnejr8.jpg




http://www.comicvine.com/articles/off-my-mind-what-happened-to-superman-big-bardas-s/1100-144019/



how does the secular world define "Luciferian" ... ?
Like so:
---------------------------------
(from Merriam Webster dotcom)

Luciferian


of, relating to, or worthy of an evil spirit <the movie's villain wore a Luciferian expression of supreme confidence>
Synonyms cacodemonic, demoniac (also demoniacal), demonian, demonic (also demonical), devilish, diabolical (or diabolic), Luciferian, satanic
Related Words hellish, infernal; baleful, evil, sinister; malevolent, malicious, malignant; heinous, monstrous; black, immoral, iniquitous, nefarious, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked; barbarous, cruel, ferocious, inhuman, savage
Near Antonyms celestial, heavenly; beneficent, benevolent, benign, benignant; godly, holy, sainted, saintly; ethical, good, moral, righteous, virtuous
Antonyms angelic (or angelical)

-----------------------------------
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/luciferian




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014&version=AKJV


Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28-30
Ezekiel 28

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011&version=KJV
2 Corinthians 11

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024&version=AKJV
Matthew 24:24

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205&version=AKJV
1 John 5

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204&version=AKJV
Matthew 4

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010&version=AKJV
***Luke 10***
(Satan falling as lightning from heaven)


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20corinthians%204&version=AKJV
2 Corinthians 4

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%209&version=AKJV
Revelation 9

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013
Revelation 13

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A44-45&version=AKJV
John 8:44-45

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012&version=AKJV
Revelation 12
(serpent, satan, dragon, Lucifer, all names of the devil, who deceiveth the whole world)

bluewaterrider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sig_%28rune%29


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14582175
(jla axis. lightning imagery abounds.)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14582252
(black adam in shadow with glowing shirt. Alex Ross style)

-------------------------------------------- page 4 completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ
Derren Brown Advertising Agency Task
6 min 47 sec
(power of symbols, even those flashed for just a second unbeknownst to a person)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpaRouocBes
(The Mysterious Stranger, Mark Twain, Claymation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeA7a0uS3A
(Masters of the Universe Opening Theme, He-Man, Filmation)


http://oi42.tinypic.com/2nlu8va.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/ilhf6x.jpg
http://oi39.tinypic.com/34imra0.jpg
(He-Man transformation)



http://oi41.tinypic.com/de5mr5.jpg
electric blue superman

http://oi43.tinypic.com/30lm0jt.jpg
captain marvel excises a rock of eternity spirit

http://oi40.tinypic.com/1zlvggj.jpg
serpent coil appearing during adora's she-ra tranformation

http://oi40.tinypic.com/295ejbm.jpg
black adam, freddy marvel, or captain marvel?

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2cynqdz.jpg
billy batson held by black adam, dcnu

http://oi39.tinypic.com/o6h35x.jpg
alex ross style print. of black adam, mary marvel and isis. with magical green lightning coiling serpent-like around mary ...

http://oi39.tinypic.com/mrfk11.jpg
she-ra transformation sequence. notice not only the energy snake coiling around the top of her blade, but the skull imagery, darkness enveloping her even as the light shines around, and the circle of eternity forming

http://oi44.tinypic.com/33f7z3o.jpg
live action shot of captain marvel, isis, and black adam. cool to look at, but underscores the reality that the source for all 3 is essentially identical

http://oi42.tinypic.com/30tt6kh.jpg
Mary Marvel, flanked by Granny Goodness (and Eclipso?) Lightning empowerment.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2emojf7.jpg
black and white of Supergirl breaking steel chains. Cinar.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/vcqaz8.jpg
typhon versus marvel zeus

http://oi40.tinypic.com/1znmzo5.jpg
typhon gets a mountain dumped on him by marvel zeus. dualism.
note the insignia, however, on zeus belt buckle

http://oi44.tinypic.com/14v4efl.jpg
strife's arrival. the image of "satan falling like lightning" taken nearly as literally as possible. note that strife is not only trying to spread evil here, but, earlier, deceived the Amazons into killing one another by the score

http://oi43.tinypic.com/14104d4.jpg
the 3 classes of and representatives of lightning imageried DC heroes. Captain Marvel, Electric Superman, and Flash. Note carefully some of the dialogue ...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2je8n6x.jpg
electric blue Superman? McGuinness.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2nvf1jb.jpg
black adam. contrast with the image above

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2elbjhg.jpg
countdown teaser. note not only the lightning motif but the dialogue at the bottom, and the pose Lex Luthor has adopted

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2meei41.jpg
countdown #2 solicit and final covers. forerunner versus jla Axis.
note the lightning imagery and brightly illuminated background reflected by Batman's swastika-rangs and the last word of the title itself ...



Occult Lightning empowerment, Part 2

http://oi40.tinypic.com/14o9ajb.jpg
DCnu Shazam cornucopia. Note that Billy receives his power from the same source as beasts and villains like Sivana and Black Adam.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/nq8cjl.jpg
traditional God-looking figure supplies power to the Marvels ...

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2ccwff7.jpg
mighty isis. mighty adam. over the course of many years, evil characters become sympathetic ...

http://oi40.tinypic.com/30hqw6c.jpg
white garbed Mary Marvel beats down Captain Atom

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2q0k8lj.jpg
power equaled loss of control or possession for Mary in the Final Crisis era

http://oi43.tinypic.com/4l0om1.jpg
compare the fate of this DCnU Black Adam victim to those of the girls prophesying in Wonder Woman (v6) #1

http://oi39.tinypic.com/148pvgk.jpg
sometimes Shazam, sometimes other "gods" or "goddesses" supply ...

http://oi42.tinypic.com/rst1fc.jpg
mary marvel. red outfit

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2mpk784.jpg
Talk about loaded. Baphomet Pentagram at Mary's feet, plus Lightning, AND Beast and Dragon and Demon imagery, all rolled into one.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i5daue.jpg
Mary in this outfit is essentially a black costumed witch

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2rzsx9k.jpg
Mary, once more in her early days, empowered directly by Pantheon figures

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2dmbn6o.jpg
possession. directly stated

http://oi42.tinypic.com/27xkr2w.jpg
Mary in Countdown to Final Crisis

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2qimjok.jpg
Mary Marvel, Isis, Black Adam, and Captain Marvel.
The Isis/Semiramis deity has a fairly prominent place in certain fields outside comics. As for Adam, well, he already looks like a Dracula figure ...

http://oi44.tinypic.com/11ah6jk.jpg
Black Mary versus Kyle Rayner and Donna Troy

http://oi39.tinypic.com/21ltqvk.jpg
Black Mary Marvel and DCnU Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.
In many ways these are mirror characters, even as some believe Mary inspired Kara's original real-world creation many years ago.

bluewaterrider
Alright.

With everything produced to this point now in plain text above ...


http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/comics.php?topic=articles/superman-satan
(opening article. Superman as antiChrist.)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14564997
(Supergirl in Man of Steel movie style outfit. Serpentine Supergirl)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567120
(Marlon Brando S Shield)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlL2Jj-kCNU
(Noam Chomsky on the vital role of concision in the American Media)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567236
(10 cinar kryptonite nevermore supergirl strong chainbreak)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567261
(60 showcase superwoman comes to help)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567545
(10 one reason for the title)

------------------------------------- page 1 completed.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567588
(superman returns. christ crucified allusion)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682
(snakeskin image entry. google. christmas eve day 2013. bottom right corner ...)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567695
10 henry cavill. man of steel costume is blue snakeskin outfit)


This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery


There are enough images for an honest poster like Iopy to have food for thought, I think. Here are the URLs for those:


Snake Imagery


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567120

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567261

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14564997

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567682

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567695

------------------------------------------------- separate concept grouping


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567766
(superman family 174. supergirl villainesses. #5 is the truly interesting one ...)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567925
(countdownthirteen pagetwo supermanboy prime. described as ... the beast.)


-------------------------------------------------- separate concept


http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneducator/winter2009/hirsch.pdf





http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14567766
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14570573
(satan girl secret revealed. adventure comics #409)


--------------------------------------------------- page 2 completed.




http://www.oldredjalopy.com/musings-on-man-of-steel/
(reviewer calling Zod killing scene in Man of Steel an execution)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14572835
(10 superman. vol 2. #22. john byrne. phantom zone criminals. execution.)



http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?56798-The-Luciferian-Superman-Comic-Book-Connection
(thread that defines "Luciferian hero" the way Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan and author of the Satanic Bible, apparently did)



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14573151
(little disconcerting to see this ... antimasonic ... coming up for my title in google hits)



Doctrines of Luciferian Gnosticism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_OZtVxNQtc
7 min 15 sec


Luciferianism VS Christianity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCQjQBqOz38
9 min 59 sec


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14574430
(10 apollo. apollyon. dcnu ... about to murder 3 women.)


http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/component/content/article/1-jwo/379-apollyon-bible-study.html


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14574437
(10 supergirl 74. dark angel in command of locusts destroys bizarrosatangirl. padapollyon)
Source of scan: Supergirl #74
Writer: Peter A. David
Circa: 2002


-------------------------------------------similar appearing character, ancient role
first was Apollo, Destroyer via locusts
this one is Apollo, sun of a King aka the sun god, aka Lucifer, son of the morning

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9si93.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/j7f792.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/sesgvb.jpg
http://oi43.tinypic.com/1e5lya.jpg
Source: Wonder Woman #1, Volume 5

--------------------------------------------------------------

bluewaterrider
Thread Link Condensation Post #2.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14574879
(for tomorrow.father daniel leone. believe in me antichrist opening scene. superman210v2)


(Anti)Christ Imagery


Donna Troy in "The Beast has come" scan of Countdown #13.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/opzs6g.jpg

Father Leone. Antichrist Scene. Beginning of Superman #210v2.
"For Tomorrow". Brian Azarrello
http://oi40.tinypic.com/290ztzp.jpg

Man of Steel. Watery Crucifix Pose. After saving oil rig workers.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/1z68fw9.jpg

Man of Steel. Costumed Crucifix Pose in space.
http://oi42.tinypic.com/judf9h.jpg

Superman Returns. Crucifix Pose. After Kisland release.
http://oi41.tinypic.com/dnejr8.jpg




http://www.comicvine.com/articles/off-my-mind-what-happened-to-superman-big-bardas-s/1100-144019/



how does the secular world define "Luciferian" ... ?
Like so:
---------------------------------
(from Merriam Webster dotcom)

Luciferian


of, relating to, or worthy of an evil spirit <the movie's villain wore a Luciferian expression of supreme confidence>
Synonyms cacodemonic, demoniac (also demoniacal), demonian, demonic (also demonical), devilish, diabolical (or diabolic), Luciferian, satanic
Related Words hellish, infernal; baleful, evil, sinister; malevolent, malicious, malignant; heinous, monstrous; black, immoral, iniquitous, nefarious, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked; barbarous, cruel, ferocious, inhuman, savage
Near Antonyms celestial, heavenly; beneficent, benevolent, benign, benignant; godly, holy, sainted, saintly; ethical, good, moral, righteous, virtuous
Antonyms angelic (or angelical)

-----------------------------------
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/luciferian




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014&version=AKJV


Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28-30
Ezekiel 28

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011&version=KJV
2 Corinthians 11

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024&version=AKJV
Matthew 24:24

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205&version=AKJV
1 John 5

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204&version=AKJV
Matthew 4

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010&version=AKJV
***Luke 10***
(Satan falling as lightning from heaven)


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20corinthians%204&version=AKJV
2 Corinthians 4

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%209&version=AKJV
Revelation 9

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013
Revelation 13

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A44-45&version=AKJV
John 8:44-45

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012&version=AKJV
Revelation 12
(serpent, satan, dragon, Lucifer, all names of the devil, who deceiveth the whole world)

bluewaterrider
Thread Link Condensation Post. #3 of 3.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sig_%28rune%29


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14582175
(jla axis. lightning imagery abounds.)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14582252
(black adam in shadow with glowing shirt. Alex Ross style)

-------------------------------------------- page 4 completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ
Derren Brown Advertising Agency Task
6 min 47 sec
(power of symbols, even those flashed for just a second unbeknownst to a person)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpaRouocBes
(The Mysterious Stranger, Mark Twain, Claymation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeA7a0uS3A
(Masters of the Universe Opening Theme, He-Man, Filmation)


http://oi42.tinypic.com/2nlu8va.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/ilhf6x.jpg
http://oi39.tinypic.com/34imra0.jpg
(He-Man transformation)



http://oi41.tinypic.com/de5mr5.jpg
electric blue superman

http://oi43.tinypic.com/30lm0jt.jpg
captain marvel excises a rock of eternity spirit

http://oi40.tinypic.com/1zlvggj.jpg
serpent coil appearing during adora's she-ra tranformation

http://oi40.tinypic.com/295ejbm.jpg
black adam, freddy marvel, or captain marvel?

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2cynqdz.jpg
billy batson held by black adam, dcnu

http://oi39.tinypic.com/o6h35x.jpg
alex ross style print. of black adam, mary marvel and isis. with magical green lightning coiling serpent-like around mary ...

http://oi39.tinypic.com/mrfk11.jpg
she-ra transformation sequence. notice not only the energy snake coiling around the top of her blade, but the skull imagery, darkness enveloping her even as the light shines around, and the circle of eternity forming

http://oi44.tinypic.com/33f7z3o.jpg
live action shot of captain marvel, isis, and black adam. cool to look at, but underscores the reality that the source for all 3 is essentially identical

http://oi42.tinypic.com/30tt6kh.jpg
Mary Marvel, flanked by Granny Goodness (and Eclipso?) Lightning empowerment.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2emojf7.jpg
black and white of Supergirl breaking steel chains. Cinar.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/vcqaz8.jpg
typhon versus marvel zeus

http://oi40.tinypic.com/1znmzo5.jpg
typhon gets a mountain dumped on him by marvel zeus. dualism.
note the insignia, however, on zeus belt buckle

http://oi44.tinypic.com/14v4efl.jpg
strife's arrival. the image of "satan falling like lightning" taken nearly as literally as possible. note that strife is not only trying to spread evil here, but, earlier, deceived the Amazons into killing one another by the score

http://oi43.tinypic.com/14104d4.jpg
the 3 classes of and representatives of lightning imageried DC heroes. Captain Marvel, Electric Superman, and Flash. Note carefully some of the dialogue ...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2je8n6x.jpg
electric blue Superman? McGuinness.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2nvf1jb.jpg
black adam. contrast with the image above

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2elbjhg.jpg
countdown teaser. note not only the lightning motif but the dialogue at the bottom, and the pose Lex Luthor has adopted

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2meei41.jpg
countdown #2 solicit and final covers. forerunner versus jla Axis.
note the lightning imagery and brightly illuminated background reflected by Batman's swastika-rangs and the last word of the title itself ...



Occult Lightning empowerment, Part 2

http://oi40.tinypic.com/14o9ajb.jpg
DCnu Shazam cornucopia. Note that Billy receives his power from the same source as beasts and villains like Sivana and Black Adam.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/nq8cjl.jpg
traditional God-looking figure supplies power to the Marvels ...

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2ccwff7.jpg
mighty isis. mighty adam. over the course of many years, evil characters become sympathetic ...

http://oi40.tinypic.com/30hqw6c.jpg
white garbed Mary Marvel beats down Captain Atom

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2q0k8lj.jpg
power equaled loss of control or possession for Mary in the Final Crisis era

http://oi43.tinypic.com/4l0om1.jpg
compare the fate of this DCnU Black Adam victim to those of the girls prophesying in Wonder Woman (v6) #1

http://oi39.tinypic.com/148pvgk.jpg
sometimes Shazam, sometimes other "gods" or "goddesses" supply ...

http://oi42.tinypic.com/rst1fc.jpg
mary marvel. red outfit

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2mpk784.jpg
Talk about loaded. Baphomet Pentagram at Mary's feet, plus Lightning, AND Beast and Dragon and Demon imagery, all rolled into one.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i5daue.jpg
Mary in this outfit is essentially a black costumed witch

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2rzsx9k.jpg
Mary, once more in her early days, empowered directly by Pantheon figures

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2dmbn6o.jpg
possession. directly stated

http://oi42.tinypic.com/27xkr2w.jpg
Mary in Countdown to Final Crisis

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2qimjok.jpg
Mary Marvel, Isis, Black Adam, and Captain Marvel.
The Isis/Semiramis deity has a fairly prominent place in certain fields outside comics. As for Adam, well, he already looks like a Dracula figure ...

http://oi44.tinypic.com/11ah6jk.jpg
Black Mary versus Kyle Rayner and Donna Troy

http://oi39.tinypic.com/21ltqvk.jpg
Black Mary Marvel and DCnU Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.
In many ways these are mirror characters, even as some believe Mary inspired Kara's original real-world creation many years ago.

carllyfermo
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bluewaterrider
I'm debating whether to use the same technique I did in some of my earlier "Respect" Threads, which was to use periods to "blank" post to quickly exceed the 20 post per page limit of any particular KMC thread and "warp" to the next page.

Yet I also want to answer some of the questions posed earlier more fully and directly, and I want to see if the links I posted this week, especially the ones posted just a little while ago as full click-able images, helped clarify anything.


Perhaps a compromise might work.

"Period" the next post.

Then answer one question.

For that will allow a visual break.
And ready a page jump.
And answer a question.

But also allow people the chance to examine the sources that illustrate what I've been talking about tonight.

bluewaterrider
.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Digi
Ask yourself what the motivation is for a DC exec to make Superman the anti-christ? What motivation, despite decades of interviews and stories that portray him as a good character, and writers specifically trying to tap into the positive potential of the Superman mythos?



Assuming the average DC writer or exec is secular, he would not likely have much familiarity with Christ himself, let alone any antiChrist, especially as that figure is described in a Judeo-Christian writing like the Bible.

bluewaterrider
Alright, been more than a month now.

Time to update ...

bluewaterrider
So the question might naturally arise, "Why Supergirl? Why not Superman?"

The simple reason is that it's easier to see this stuff when Kara is featured in a story. Either as a lens or mirror to her cousin.


For instance, it's possible to see Superman not only as Luciferian but as literally Satanic in some of the modern depictions of him:


Superman as demon servant of a worse being still
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2z4fn79.jpg

Superman as fallen one-winged angel
http://oi62.tinypic.com/nco6z4.jpg

.. but these are few and relatively far between.

Especially hard to see for fans of the character who will argue, as has been the case:
"These are alternate visions of Superman, or Superman in another media,
or Superman when he's been brainwashed, or compromised, or, or ..."


Acknowledged. It doesn't affect the main point.
The language of symbols doesn't make such fine distinctions where this subject matter is concerned.

bluewaterrider
Action Comics 303.


Anyone who can miss the snake imagery in THIS shot ...

http://oi60.tinypic.com/34et6r7.jpg


http://oi61.tinypic.com/317fr4o.jpg
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2u8vtbn.jpg
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11vphsk&s=8#.Uvrk5LSC9v4

bluewaterrider
Ahk. Printed without checking the "Automatically parse URLs" box.
Trying to get out of that habit for this thread.
Anyway,


Superman, the Dragon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi60.tinypic.com/34et6r7.jpg


http://oi61.tinypic.com/317fr4o.jpg
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2u8vtbn.jpg

http://oi58.tinypic.com/11vphsk.jpg


Source: Action Comics #303, Volume 1
Writer: Edmond Hamilton
Penciller: Curt Swan
Date: August 1963
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_303





Supergirl versus Fire Drake
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi62.tinypic.com/wml9c2.jpg

Source: Adventure Comics #409
Writer: Mike Sekowsky
Penciller: Mike Sekowsky
Date: August 1971
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Adventure_Comics_Vol_1_409

bluewaterrider
Bronze Age Serpentgirl Imagery



Dean Cain. Blue Snake Logo Superman outfit
http://oi58.tinypic.com/2vjbps5.jpg

Red Snake saves. Supergirl rescues 2 kids.
http://oi58.tinypic.com/1z6bbyw.jpg

Breakfast at Clark's. What teasing title does Superman give Kara?
http://oi61.tinypic.com/4kwal0.jpg

Supergirl's cape logo forms a caduceus.
http://oi58.tinypic.com/vg7l8w.jpg

bluewaterrider
At this point, people should, at the very least, have begun seeing there is symbolism behind lightning and some of its variations.

Serpents, snakes, dragons, beasts, etcetera ...
should be at least a little easier to see now, too.

Now for the fallen angel aspect. Little dragon mixed in here, too ... should be easy to recognize.

To be sure, I'm answering the observation of gaps, systematically covering the Supergirl portion of my title as it relates to the thread theme by progressive eras.


Roughly:

0) Mary Marvel (??? to pre 1959)
1) Silver Age (1959 to early 1970s)
2) Bronze Age (1970s to early 1980s)
3) Modern Age (1990s to early 2000s)
4) Pre-Flashpoint (2004 to 2010)
5) DCnU

bluewaterrider
3) Modern Age (1990s to early 2000s)

This era begins with Peter David.

There has, arguably, not been any era where the Luciferian and/or Fallen Angelic elements of the Supergirl character were made so pointed and directly stated as this one, present period included.

Note carefully the many symbols included in the 2nd image:
People in sexually suggestive poses, 2-dimensional pyramid, all seeing eye, flames, horned heads or skulls, black leather.
I wasn't a collector of the series during this time; I'm considering the little I read of it and wondering what elements were included in the numerous other books I missed. Not so subtle as your father's Supergirl ...



http://oi57.tinypic.com/14dko5j.jpg

http://oi62.tinypic.com/k0ljed.jpg


http://oi61.tinypic.com/2z5kkf6.jpg

http://oi57.tinypic.com/1p8pxt.jpg

http://oi62.tinypic.com/vnhu77.jpg

http://oi57.tinypic.com/34xqq9k.jpg

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2k0axv.jpg

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2hwphk8.jpg

bluewaterrider
I've been trying to think of an efficient way to relate the type of symbolism I've been talking about throughout this thread.
It's not that easy to do; the hundreds upon hundreds of views this thread has gotten tells me that people are interested; it hasn't told me if they're understanding what I've been presenting.

On the other hand, I know from doing Respect Threads that even if people like what they see and are following and understanding, they don't always comment and say so.


I feel I've answered Digi's major questions to this point.

Pr will presumably return as he hinted he would at some time in the future.

Iopy? Hmm, well KMC is not a major hang-out spot for her ...
I see from where she DOES hang out, besides, that she's actually beginning to LIKE
the rage-filled blood-vomiting being formerly known as Supergirl presently appearing in DCnU.

It's an honestly fascinating process to observe through Iopy's writing, considering her previous tastes as I knew them and as she expressed them before now.
I suppose the same could be said of most anyone, but it still seems remarkable to me.




Anyway:

I found the following video noteworthily good organization for this type of media and plenty of examples for every major point it made.

I'll probably identify about five points where viewers can click the following clip and follow from that point for about 100 seconds and get a reasonably complete understanding of anything missed to this point.

That'll come later though; I've got important other things to complete this afternoon. Follow up on minor topics like this can wait.

Even so, it's Tuesday, so I'll list this first in complete URL form:

(understanding Luciferianism as it is defined in this thread
and many, if not most, of Luciferianism's major symbols)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz12J9zwiWY

bluewaterrider
... and once more in THIS post as a click-able hyperlink:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz12J9zwiWY

55iopy
Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Iopy? Hmm, well KMC is not a major hang-out spot for her ...
I see from where she DOES hang out, besides, that she's actually beginning to LIKE
the rage-filled blood-vomiting being formerly known as Supergirl presently appearing in DCnU.

It's an honestly fascinating process to observe through Iopy's writing, considering her previous tastes as I knew them and as she expressed them before now.
I suppose the same could be said of most anyone, but it still seems remarkable to me.

I'm still reading, and trying to understand. Don't think a lack of response from me means I'm not lurking.

But as for that blood-vomiting....

It's true that this isn't a major hang-out for me, but that's mostly because I don't necessarily understand things such as the versus threads or the comparison of feats to determine who is a better character. I read comics from a different perspective I guess, and thus don't have anything of merit to contribute. That doesn't mean I don't read those threads, it's always possible I may one day have a blinding flash of understanding, but at my age I suspect that's unlikely.

As for the Red Lanterns direction you may be misreading my views, or more likely I've expressed them poorly. Actually I don't like it, but I do have respect for the writers involved and what they've said they're trying to do. And I have hopes for the denoument of the arc being written, as the concepts expressed by those writers includes this being an attempt at epiphany for the character and a change in direction. In a way I consider it a last gasp therapy and attempt to revive the flagging hopes for a DC property that editorial now may realize they've horribly mis-managed. To me the Red Lantern arc is a bit of nasty medicine that must be swallowed or a fever to burn away the infection.

This version of the character has been written as an angry, hysterical, monstrous child for about 1.5 years, in many ways a collection of every stereotype and cliche about teenage girls that haunts the psyches of some socially challenged young men. As little more than a one dimensional cardboard cut-out character her purpose has been to act as a villain in her own book and a reinforcement for the belief that a young woman is, by her very nature, a lesser being. She's been allowed to fill only the standard hack writer female roles: villain, vixen, or victim. And because of that the book has been a chore to read if you're looking for more than smash-mouth, which is where you'll find me.

In the world of comics there are a few ways to fix that: Reboot, ret-conn, or rehabilitate. In this case they're choosing the latter, and have indicated they plan to tell an arc that follows the traditional hero's journey. And in that journey to reach the necessary realization the character must first achieve a nadir where all seems lost, where the worst aspects of the story have been doubled and redoubled until the loss seems complete. For a character that's been written as an angry hot-head filled with unreasoning rage and self-pity from nearly the beginning of this particular iteration it would seem that a Red Lantern would be the appropriate bit of purgatory where we can have revelation, realization, and finally redemption.

At least that's my hope. What I want in a character such as this one hasn't changed. A redemption arc is the last gasp for the character for me, a way to perhaps bring her back to a point where she can be admirable instead of despicable. And they intend to do it by throwing her down before raising her up. If they succeed I'll tip my hat to them, and I'm rooting for that success because I have always liked the character in the past and would like to be able to like her in the future. But in the end it's not her "feats" that draw me to her unless they're feats of exceptional ethical behavior and moral strength. I don't care if she can or can't beat Goku in a confrontation, I care that she's not Vegeta or Freeza.

Sorry to run on long, that was another of those stream of consciousness text walls you used to see from me a lot. But you did mention it, and my name, so I had to respond. If a rambling diatribe without spellcheck or editing can be considered a response. embarrasment

55iopy
Now, to turn what I've said around to approach the subject of your thread. Or to at least try.

A proper story, argument, speech, or position paper has a theme, a direction, and hopefully a resolution. This thread has spent a great deal of time focusing on symbolism, and I think I see much of it now that you point it out, but we're six pages in and you aren't tying it together or drawing conclusions to be discussed and argued over. I'm by nature a polite person, and I now realize I've been quietly waiting for a summation of your argument. But you don't appear on the surface to be making one. You've presented a series of observations, but haven't stated what the proposition is that you're supporting with them, so the most I can do is nod or shake my head. I can't discuss them in a way that is meaningful or that can engender further discussion.

In essence, I see a collected series of statements that seem to be moving toward establishing a proposition, but I don't really understand what the proposition is. Can you help this poor, dense person?

In the meantime I'll touch a point that you hit on briefly, that being the "Luciferian" motif found in various iterations of Supergirl. You've presented a series of scenes via links to scans, and each has those somewhat demonic references. But in each case, while you touch on the that aspect of he story, you don't also reference the story being told. The story of Lucifer is one of a fall, but not one that includes redemption. The story of the Matrix/Linda Supergirl as written by Peter David includes damnation and redemption as motifs. It even includes the basic concept of the guardian angel as described in Hebrews 1:14: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister for them, who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?" And oddly enough, this remarkably spiritual work hints that the angel sent to guide the Linda/Matrix character is the spirit of the Silver Age Supergirl who sacrificed and was forgotten. And in the end the Matrix portion of the merged being makes that same ultimate sacrifice, and like Silver Age Supergirl is forgotten due to another DC universe reshuffle.

So. Luciferian? Perhaps. But only if we also assume that even Lucifer is not beyond redemption. A fall is there, much like I mentioned for the current rage filled Red Lantern Supergirl. But salvation as well, even if not in a strictly biblical sense. And guidance, when needed, by kindred spirits.

Should I continue to talk? Or have I gone so far off the track you intended that I'm derailing your intent?

The proverbial ball is in your court, Mr Blue.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by 55iopy

Should I continue to talk?
Or have I gone so far off the track you intended that I'm derailing your intent?


1. You should definitely continue to talk.

2. It's highly unlikely you'll derail the intent of my thread unless you're trying.
My threads are, generally, designed to incorporate audience questions, participation, and objections,
though that fact isn't always obvious to most.

I suspect I've actually let that become TOO much the case over the years and need to get back to the way I originally used to post on forums.

3. You don't live in Michigan, do you?
Something about your writing pattern seems incredibly familiar ...

Originally posted by 55iopy

A proper story, argument, speech, or position paper has a theme, a direction, and hopefully a resolution ...
You've presented a series of observations, but haven't stated what the proposition is that you're supporting with them, so the most I can do is nod or shake my head.
I can't discuss them in a way that is meaningful or that can engender further discussion.


You actually are and have.

I'll do my best to demonstrate as much in subsequent updates.


Originally posted by 55iopy

This thread has spent a great deal of time focusing on symbolism,
and I think I see much of it now that you point it out ...



That's pretty much the integral theme of this thread; it's as reassuring to see this statement from you as it would have been disconcerting to see the opposite.



You've got me interested now as to what remains confusing or what you think needs further explanation, though.

Feel free to KMC personal message me if you don't think I'm properly understanding you here.



Thank you for your time.

bluewaterrider
Iopy your response tells me that my approach, boggled in organization, nonetheless has been able to communicate some of the things
I've been trying to get across.

Hopefully, assuming I'll have time to devote to it this afternoon,
the bulk of what I've said before will make sense, communicated about as clearly through illustration as symbolism allows.


In the meantime, a preview of the "twinning" theme I plan to explore later on today, an important key to understanding a good portion of the things shown thus far:

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by 55iopy

A proper story, argument, speech, or position paper has a theme, a direction, and hopefully a resolution. This thread has spent a great deal of time focusing on symbolism, and I think I see much of it now that you point it out, but we're six pages in and you aren't tying it together or drawing conclusions to be discussed and argued over ...

In essence, I see a collected series of statements that seem to be moving toward establishing a proposition ...


Stream of consciousness might be the best way to get past any writing difficulties at this point. I've been viewing works similar to this thread and considering the responses this one itself has gotten. Greatest failing of many of the others seems to be a lack of exemplary material.

I'm far slower at content providing than the average KMC image poster.
So it would probably be best just to focus on finishing the presentation of my original set of material and forget about organization and full coherency until the visual portion has been set down here.



The Subtlety of Homage and Symbolism.




http://oi62.tinypic.com/fau9lw.jpg
Black Costume Spidey.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2pzen49.jpg
Deadpool swinging with Jonah Jameson lookalike ... on now frayed line.

Why these entries?

Need to illustrate the principle that storylines and specific contents matter to a more limited extent than people realize where communication via symbols is concerned.

Also that symbols are generally not something overt enough for all people to understand, nor, in many cases, are they intended to.
To a new comic reader, for instance, the above 2 entries are just 2 random entries. They wouldn't know who Deadpool is, they wouldn't know who J. Jonah Jameson is. They would only be able to tell Spider-Man is Spider-man in the first entry because the title said so; they would wonder why in the world he's in some black costume, when, if they've EVER seen him before, it was probably in something red and blue.

By contrast, a fan who actually collects Spider-man to an appreciable degree will recognize, and instantly, that the 2 entries above are not random and meaningless at all. They are actually homages or parodies of Amazing Fantasy #15, the magazine that started the entire Spider-Man industry as we know it today, way back in the 1960s.

New reader/initiate: no clue.
Reader with prior exposure: instant, visceral, resonant recognition.

Any reader trying to follow this thread MUST understand this concept, that the things I'm trying to describe are rarely if ever being displayed blatantly enough
for all people to recognize them.
Not without some ability to correct for the distortion inherent in trying to interpret symbolic language, at least.

Symbolism wouldn't be symbolism if it were spelled out like a legal document.

bluewaterrider
Ahk.

Got to remember to let the "Automatically parse URLs" box remain checked when I compose these messages.

So people know there are links here to click.
And not just walls of text or URLs that require copying and pasting to view.


-------------------------------------------------
http://oi62.tinypic.com/fau9lw.jpg
Black Costume Spidey.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2pzen49.jpg
Deadpool swinging with Jonah Jameson lookalike ... on now frayed line.
-------------------------------------------------

As mentioned in the post before this present post that you're reading, the above are homages to Amazing Fantasy #15,
and illustrations of the minimal degree of interpretive ability you need to possess to understand anything in this thread.


Well, that's the case so far.

It occurs to me, not just now and not for the first time, that I can correct for some otherwise misses by creating composite scans.
Of homage or homages side-by-side with the original.
So people can see at a glance where these things are derived from the very first time around.

bluewaterrider
I stumbled upon a website that actually features Action Comics #252 homage covers a few moments ago, just in trying for an image of that issue:

http://ilovecomiccovers.blogspot.com/2011/08/action-comics-252-homages.html

The variant included as my attachment in my previous post is still the best homage, as far as I'm concerned, but it's nice to have these to illustrate the point.

Note how different each homage is from the original when you visit that site.
Notice how it is nonetheless recognizable, almost unmistakeably so.



Besides being yet another reinforcement of how variation must be factored in to any understanding of this subject matter, the scene depicted on the Action Comics 252 echoes a theme all its own. Another motif, just like the "I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven" meme you all should be learning to recognize from my entries on the previous page. Rebirth.

The Action 252 cover depicts symbolic death and rebirth.
Kara "dies" in a dramatic crash, in the Supergirl #58 homage even a fiery one,
to emerge, Phoenix-like, powerful and reborn, from a structure that vaguely resembles an egg.

I'm reminded of similar memes at work in Lady Gaga and Beyonce performances. But I (vaguely) digress.

Actually, that line of thinking triggers more.

For instance, I like the Loeb variant homage because it actually summarizes the entire first arc of his series.
None of the others communicate that much with so little as far as I can tell; it's absolutely brilliant.

But I'm reminded of it because I recall now someone pointing out that Superman symbolically undergoes a symbolic drowning death in the new Man of Steel movie.
I've got that featured on the first page of this thread, if memory serves. A "burial" where Superman is even shown Christ-like in clothes echoing familiar painted depictions of the cross, following that oil-rig explosion:

http://oi60.tinypic.com/a5hyjr.jpg


In similar, though not nearly so allegorically a fashion, Kara emerges from what is otherwise a watery grave, with a messenger from above shining light down on her, no less. The material lends itself well to that interpretation, at any rate.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by bluewaterrider


for the fallen angel aspect.
Little dragon mixed in here, too ... should be easy to recognize.

To be sure, I'm answering the observation of gaps, systematically covering the Supergirl portion of my title as it relates to the thread theme by progressive eras.


Roughly:

0) Mary Marvel (??? to pre 1959)
1) Silver Age (1959 to early 1970s)
2) Bronze Age (1970s to early 1980s)
3) Modern Age (1990s to early 2000s)
4) Pre-Flashpoint (2004 to 2010)
5) DCnU

bluewaterrider
Dah ...

Errant click of the mouse submitted that without images.

No matter.
I was up to the Loeb Kelly era.

Won't dwell overmuch on this one.
This is the era of Dark Kara/Supergirl introduced by Jeph Loeb.
In contrast to the original Kara Zor-el, who was greeted and mentored and patterned after the relatively light and sunny character of Superman,
Loeb's Kara Zor-el was met first by Batman and adopted HIM as her primary parental figure and mentor.

This was actually pretty fascinating in some aspects.
Separate from the subject matter of this thread, I rather liked the idea.


Anyway, I'm impatient to begin with Wonder Woman tonight/today.

I'll only post 2 scans for now from this era that should nevertheless suggest quite a bit to viewers who've been paying attention to this point, and move on:


http://oi57.tinypic.com/24n20rq.jpg

http://oi60.tinypic.com/2cokbv4.jpg

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider
Time to begin the exploration or re-exploration of the symbolism surrounding Wonder Woman.


Coming to mind immediately:

Apollyon (Apollo) the Destroyer.
Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies
Daughter of Zeus
Diana by other names
Artemis
Sun and Moon
Twin motif
Hera and Siracca
Ares, God of War
Mirror Dragon
Pentagram, Eastern Star, Baphomet
Demiurge versus Yaldabaoth versus Apollo
Superwoman




Sizeable list. I'm not of the mind more than a third of the items above are actually familiar to most people.

Many notes are in order. First, said before, but worth repeating, is that nothing in this thread will make much sense without some basic knowledge of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

From the perspective of any of these monotheistic religions, all fairly common in America, Greek "deities" are not deities at all. Greek gods are not truly gods.
They are, instead, regarded as fallen angels or demons.
Agents either associated with Satan, or agents who are actually disguised Satan himself. Lucifer.


It is unfortunately not Tuesday so I will have to be exceedingly brief; it is actually bedtime where I live.

Note that, depending on how current or non-current you like your source material, you may want to delay your examination of the following links, which is quite recent indeed.
The entry is included here nonetheless because it is fairly remarkable, first of these three offerings especially, for illustrating several of the concepts discussed in these and earlier pages.

See if you can identify at least 2 or 3 or those illustrated concepts.
There just might be a quiz later on ...


http://oi60.tinypic.com/16bhbuu.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/15pof8z.jpg
http://oi61.tinypic.com/scaxeb.jpg

Badabing
You could also make this thread in the Conspiracy Forum. You may get some different opinions.

bluewaterrider
I sense text alone, or text with URLs, and even text with click-able blue hyperlinks isn't proving enough to communicate effectively here.

That would probably discourage me under normal conditions, indeed DID discourage me before now, but, part of me has always recognized this is a visual topic, and needs visual displays to be understood.

I'll take this one level higher, then, and make use of a feature I don't ever recall using before, but which should work for everyone, including even non-registered users (IIRC?), and that being an outside image host provided thumbnail, so text and pictures can both be seen together.

Old hat to many a poster here, but quite novel and revolutionary for me; please bear with me as I appreciate my new discovery.


http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/18474477_642298.jpg
This is Lucifer.


Morning star.
Also, evening star.
Also Hesperus. Also Eosphorus.

Also a host of other names that I may or may not get to later in this thread.

The names are strange-sounding because they are not English words.
The people that named Venus didn't know the language you and I speak today.
Actually, it was the Romans who gave Venus the name "Venus" and the people that preceded them, the Greeks, used the names above.

Cultures that preceded them likewise used remote, obscure sounding non-English names to describe Venus, but we'll stick with the Roman and Greek for now because it is from those two traditions that Wonder Woman most obviously derives.


Note that this Lucifer, aka Hesperus, aka Eosphorus, etcetera, etcetera, is an angelic-looking being. Not a demonic looking one.
Not someone or something particularly planet-looking, either.

Again, "Luciferian" does not necessarily mean evil or plain looking.
Whether taking the form of planet, person, or being, Luciferian often looks quite beautiful and angelic.
Because Lucifer himself, source of the word, started off looking beautiful and angelic, WAS beautiful and angelic,
and, arguably, still IS beautiful and angelic looking.

bluewaterrider
I plan to return to this ... "Hesperus" a few times.

For many reasons.

One those of you who have followed to this point of the thread might recognize is who ELSE Hesperus/Lucifer is ...




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs and vultures, for so were the counsels of Jove fulfilled from the day on which the son of Atreus, king of men, and great Achilles, first fell out with one another.

And which of the gods was it that set them on to quarrel? It was the son of Jove and Leto; for he was angry with the king and sent a pestilence upon the host to plague the people, because the son of Atreus had dishonoured Chryses his priest. Now Chryses had come to the ships of the Achaeans to free his daughter, and had brought with him a great ransom: moreover he bore in his hand the sceptre of Apollo wreathed with a suppliant's wreath and he besought the Achaeans, but most of all the two sons of Atreus, who were their chiefs.

"Sons of Atreus," he cried, "and all other Achaeans, may the gods who dwell in Olympus grant you to sack the city of Priam, and to reach your homes in safety; but free my daughter, and accept a ransom for her, in reverence to Apollo, son of Jove."

On this the rest of the Achaeans with one voice were for respecting the priest and taking the ransom that he offered; but not so Agamemnon, who spoke fiercely to him and sent him roughly away. "Old man," said he, "let me not find you tarrying about our ships, nor yet coming hereafter. Your sceptre of the god and your wreath shall profit you nothing. I will not free her. She shall grow old in my house at Argos far from her own home, busying herself with her loom and visiting my couch; so go, and do not provoke me or it shall be the worse for you."

The old man feared him and obeyed. Not a word he spoke, but went by the shore of the sounding sea and prayed apart to King Apollo whom lovely Leto had borne. "Hear me," he cried, "O god of the silver bow, that protectest Chryse and holy Cilla and rulest Tenedos with thy might, hear me oh thou of Sminthe. If I have ever decked your temple with garlands, or burned your thigh-bones in fat of bulls or goats, grant my prayer, and let your arrows avenge these my tears upon the Danaans."

Thus did he pray, and Apollo heard his prayer. He came down furious from the summits of Olympus, with his bow and his quiver upon his shoulder, and the arrows rattled on his back with the rage that trembled within him. He sat himself down away from the ships with a face as dark as night, and his silver bow rang death as he shot his arrow in the midst of them. First he smote their mules and their hounds, but presently he aimed his shafts at the people themselves, and all day long the pyres of the dead were burning.

For nine whole days he shot his arrows among the people, but upon the tenth day Achilles called them in assembly- moved thereto by Juno, who saw the Achaeans in their death-throes and had compassion upon them ...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.1.i.html

bluewaterrider
http://archive.org/stream/mythsandlegendso22381gut/pg22381.txt

A resource link outlining the fluidity of Greek and Roman deities

bluewaterrider
Fan promo for a Supergirl film, styled off the uniform of Man of Steel 2013.

Though the artwork is beautiful, the features that suggest "snakeskin" or "reptilian" echo very strongly here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwOIVwv-bQY

Endless Mike
DCnU is a big enough disappointment as it is, there's no need to invoke some kind of Satanic conspiracy

Letters

Prof. T.C McAbe
I would say it is exactly the opposite. Not lucifer but god. ^^

Letters
Luciferian by defenition is the belief man can become as gods.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Letters
Luciferian by definition is the belief man can become as gods.



Would that I could have known even as much as I do now.

Perhaps I might have been able to put the matter as concisely as you did.

Sadly, I was not truly familiar with the term.

I don't really assume I know all it entails now, but certainly I could not have predicted the very word "Luciferian" could and would trigger such a powerful response in the people that have responded here.



Letters, thank you for the input.

I apologize for not replying to you sooner; I'd dropped the habit of checking on this thread as used to be my Tuesday habit.

I think I may resume submissions if I know that people like Delta and yourself visit here; with certainty if he wants to debate issues, but likely if even one such as yourself is here to demonstrate interest and offer your knowledge.

Thank you for your time.

bluewaterrider
In recent weeks I've come across imagery that could drive the Luciferian aspect home. I've been concentrating on the "End Times" Judeo/Christian aspect because, until now, that is what struck me as most singular. The series of blue hyperlinks near the bottom of Page 5 make probably the best visual summary.
I've had at least 3 people tell me that, judging from that bank, they could just about see everything I was talking about, though they disagreed with the reasons for it.

I should make clear, that, until now, I haven't really supplied any of my own.
The most I figured prove-able beyond reasonable doubt is that many of the images seen in comics nowadays are Biblical allusions, often very altered ones, still very recognizable as such. Or at least I thought they would be recognizable.
People are less familiar even with symbols I used to think common than I first thought.

My time is short today, just for curiosity's sake, I'll post the following, taken from Superman/Wonder Woman #6, if memory serves. I recorded it months ago, but avoided giving it too much spotlight because it was then only recently released.
I've been trying in general to give material that is at least half a year old and that most regular posters would already have fairly extensive exposure to.

I may revise that -- give slightly more recent material in days to come.

Anyway, I need to know the starting point for the average poster.
I would think a person would have to be inexplicably sheltered not to recognize where the imagery HERE comes from, but, needless to say, I've received a few surprises concerning this thread already ...

bluewaterrider
I'll likely provide verse reference for the following in the future.

bluewaterrider
Happened to be in the Morlun Respect thread today.
Struck me how much the guy is the image of Dracula who himself is the dapper genteel version of ...

Ah, skip it. What struck me was the OP's submission of a "Spider-verse" showing.
Morlun versus "Patton Parnell", an obvious alteration of Peter Parker.

However, this led to discovery of what much of the REST of the story read as. And I realized very quickly that I have here an illustration that might be able to strip away the confusing layer.

For the story of Spider-Man, minus additions used to make Peter Parker relate-able and like-able to a reader, is actually one that would be quite horrifying. It's not, precisely because it DOES have additions that mitigate that fact. Similarly, people are having trouble with the idea of Luciferian because they are expecting to see elements that look obviously Satanic or characters that act that way. And that's simply not how Luciferian presents.

Lucifer again means "light bearer".
The dark elements? They aren't readily apparent.
To some, they'll never be. But they ARE there, whether noticed or not.

Someone DID notice this for Spider-Man, though. Hence the following article:

http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/2014/10/03/edge-of-spider-verse-4-theres-a-monster-at-the-end-of-this-post/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shorter on time today than on Tuesdays.
Going to try in the interim between now and a future Tuesday to get hold of the book "Our gods wear Spandex" by Christoper Knowles.
Till then, enjoy the following:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12056

bluewaterrider
When I first started this thread, I did it for precisely the reasons outlined on earlier pages, and honestly did not understand what was being alluded to by some of the respondents. I've done enough research in the meantime to have a pretty good idea of what they were alluding to now, though.

Been thinking about this more often because of the events of the past 2 years.
Perhaps the most interesting in relation to this thread is that Supergirl, marquee character of my original title for this thread, became a character who went from being featured in failing comics and a bad 1984 movie, to being the main character in a TV show that has reached an audience of millions, very likely doubling or even tripling the character's exposure across the world.

Similarly, the exposure of Wonder Woman, mentioned #2 in my original title, has also increased. She, too had seen new screen time, in fact screen time on the "BIG" screen via the recent Batman versus Superman: Dawn of Justice film, even as Wondy's slated to have her own title film next year.

There was a time in the relatively recent past that such news might have had me anxious to reserve a ticket. I don't quite view these characters and their popular culture in the same way now, though. I've been thinking of how effectively popular culture, deliberately or otherwise, can be used, IS used as propaganda.
If you doubt that it has been, Google "propaganda" "United States", "comics" and "World War II" stat, please.

I've also been thinking, however, of how many subtle cues derived from advertising are present in these books we read and the shows we watch. Recall the famous "XSE" cans from Pepsi/Coke a few years back? You'll find the same message those spelled out when they were stacked in Jeph Loeb's 1st presentation of Supergirl:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14891778

... and in case you just can't see it there, here are several more chances to find that same message:

http://uncannyxmen.net/miscellaneous/sex-sells-new-x-men-118

So, looking at stuff like this, I wonder to myself, and now "aloud" I suppose,

"Is it really coincidence that the President of the United States on Supergirl's show, following an Episode on Supergirl entitled "Stronger Together", the title of Hilary Clinton's book and one of her major campaign slogans, is revealed to be a woman, though in real life we've never had one before?
And for that matter 'Wonder Woman' herself, Lynda Carter?

How many voters could be subtly affected by being encouraged to associate now Candidate Hilary Clinton and "Stronger Together" and the U.S. Presidency and the heroines they grew up adoring and that their daughters now love?

And how apt and predictive the title of my thread if such IS the case, and Hilary does indeed become POTUS and turn out worse than some people fear?"
(I should make it clear I voted for her husband when he was up for re-election, by the way; no innate Clinton hatred here.)


I'm going to review some of the contents of this thread to see if it might benefit from what I've learned in the interim being provided; especially given the content of the comics that have come out since I first created this thread.

It DOES, tonight, at least, seem possible to predict some surprisingly specific things from comics and pop culture today.


In the meantime, though I'll have to provide time markers a little later, a long YouTube clip, working for now at least, that seems to heavily corroborate that Grant Morrison and Alan Moore hold spiritual beliefs in alignment with what has been described before in regards to "Luciferian" ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nIeBKD4o2aw

bluewaterrider
Oh, yeah, since old habits die hard...

Clickable link version of my previous post ..,


When I first started this thread, I did it for precisely the reasons outlined on earlier pages, and honestly did not understand what was being alluded to by some of the respondents. I've done enough research in the meantime to have a pretty good idea of what they were alluding to now, though.

Been thinking about this more often because of the events of the past 2 years.
Perhaps the most interesting in relation to this thread is that Supergirl, marquee character of my original title for this thread, became a character who went from being featured in failing comics and a bad 1984 movie, to being the main character in a TV show that has reached an audience of millions, very likely doubling or even tripling the character's exposure across the world.

Similarly, the exposure of Wonder Woman, mentioned #2 in my original title, has also increased. She, too had seen new screen time, in fact screen time on the "BIG" screen via the recent Batman versus Superman: Dawn of Justice film, even as Wondy's slated to have her own title film next year.

There was a time in the relatively recent past that such news might have had me anxious to reserve a ticket. I don't quite view these characters and their popular culture in the same way now, though. I've been thinking of how effectively popular culture, deliberately or otherwise, can be used, IS used as propaganda.
If you doubt that it has been, Google "propaganda" "United States", "comics" and "World War II" stat, please.

I've also been thinking, however, of how many subtle cues derived from advertising are present in these books we read and the shows we watch. Recall the famous "XSE" cans from Pepsi/Coke a few years back? You'll find the same message those spelled out when they were stacked in Jeph Loeb's 1st presentation of Supergirl:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14891778

... and in case you just can't see it there, here are several more chances to find that same message:

http://uncannyxmen.net/miscellaneous/sex-sells-new-x-men-118

So, looking at stuff like this, I wonder to myself, and now "aloud" I suppose,

"Is it really coincidence that the President of the United States on Supergirl's show, following an Episode on Supergirl entitled "Stronger Together", the title of Hilary Clinton's book and one of her major campaign slogans, is revealed to be a woman, though in real life we've never had one before?
And for that matter 'Wonder Woman' herself, Lynda Carter?

How many voters could be subtly affected by being encouraged to associate now Candidate Hilary Clinton and "Stronger Together" and the U.S. Presidency and the heroines they grew up adoring and that their daughters now love?

And how apt and predictive the title of my thread if such IS the case, and Hilary does indeed become POTUS and turn out worse than some people fear?"
(I should make it clear I voted for her husband when he was up for re-election, by the way; no innate Clinton hatred here.)


I'm going to review some of the contents of this thread to see if it might benefit from what I've learned in the interim being provided; especially given the content of the comics that have come out since I first created this thread.

It DOES, tonight, at least, seem possible to predict some surprisingly specific things from comics and pop culture today.


In the meantime, though I'll have to provide time markers a little later, a long YouTube clip, working for now at least, that seems to heavily corroborate that Grant Morrison and Alan Moore hold spiritual beliefs in alignment with what has been described before in regards to "Luciferian" ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nIeBKD4o2aw

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Cogito
Heralds of the Luciferian Age?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qDdnwPOuokU/TxNMk4iUxFI/AAAAAAAAAoI/HyLL3sHS4jg/s200/clint-eastwood-disgusted-gif.gif

Blue has reached perfection.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Blue has reached perfection.


Well, again, regarding the title of the thread, I chose it to be distinctive and Google-able. Even now, more than 2 years from its start, if you put that phrase in quotes as a search term, this thread comes up as the number one hit.
(One of only 2 total hits, in fact -- at least as I type this at 3:45 pm in my area today. That holds as long as you put the phrase "Heralds of the Luciferian Age" in quotes.)

Now it's true, even back when I started this thread, I had heard of some terms that must be familiar to Digi, and likely to more than a few readers, "5th Age" and "Age of Aquarius". You'll hear those terms even as lyrics to songs in various genres of music. But those terms are far too common to be the least bit unique, at least as far as Google is concerned.

And I already explained my decision to use the word "herald". On the "Comics Versus" Thread on these KMC forums, the term is so common it is actually used as a means of classifying what "tier" a given comic character belongs to, as you yourself are very much aware. In fact, the thread that breaks this down was started by the KMC moderators themselves.
And both Supergirl and Wonder Woman you'll find formally classified as "heralds" by name.

The other sense of "herald", of course, is "messenger".
They communicate information about what is happening.
More than one poster pointed out that the reading audience has become more "mature" in its tastes ... hence more sex, more violence, more vice, etcetera.

And in Supergirl and Wonder Woman comics until the present, you saw more and more of that. In fact, I'm astonished to find that, just in the past few months, there has been a lessening of that. I suspect the Supergirl show, with its writers who are a group separate from the people, or at least they were, of the Supergirl comic BOOK writers, needing to make a show palatable to CBS's general audience, have a great deal to do with that.


I've been finding some interesting answers to my originally posed page 1 questions, though. If you watched the film clip featured a post or two before, for instance, you will find Grant Morrison and Alan Moore talking about their spiritual beliefs. 2 of the most influential writers of the past 2 decades and they describe getting inspiration through visions of a Gnostic Christ and, in Alan Moore's case, a snake God named Glycon. Tune in to the 1:13:18 mark to hear Alan Moore talk about that, if you don't believe me.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycon

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by bluewaterrider


I have been struck ... at the rather ... eclectic motifs and strange brand of symbolism that seems to be at work now. Most of it was already present, and that from day one, but ... something seems ... different now.
To the point of being jarring. To the point where some of the stranger things I've come across and read don't seem quite so strange as they once did. To the point that I'm beginning to wonder, at the very least, where DC writers and art staff are getting their weekly inspiration from.

How, for instance, does a character created, ostensibly, to represent "Truth, Justice, and the American Way ...?

I'm interested in knowing what some of you think.
Where IS the creative staff of DC coming up with this stuff?
Is it the direction of it's own leadership, or that of Warner Bros?

Is it really only driven by money, or is there some template they're actually following?


An unexpected find and partial answer to my original question, at least as far as some of the marquee writers who are given significant creative freedom go ...



Below is a short clip of Grant Morrison describing a spiritual experience.
That occurs in Kathmandu.
In a hotel marked with (a) lightning bolt(s). A fact which Morrison himself ascribes great significance, mentioning the relation of the lightning bolt in the development of comics, especially in regards to characters like The Flash, etcetera. He also mentions, that, after this weird spiritual experience, he put some of his vision into All-Star Superman.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ij20DG3axsQ

1:41 -- 3:17

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by janus77
I always thought that the Galactus - Surfer relationship had shades of the mainstream Christian God - Satan relationship.

More so if you take Kirby's words literally and see Galactus as The Biblical God.

Surfer rebels against his creator, is cast down, lives amongst man and turned Alicia Masters from the straight and narrow path!



I searched for this and actually found what is quoted here above to be nearly exact in its accuracy. Kirby in his own words SAYS the Biblical God was his inspiration, and further that Silver Surfer is ... a fallen angel.
(2:10 -- 3:00 mark)
Note that this earns the description of "Luciferian" and not merely "Biblical allegory" because Kirby makes "God" in this case the villain of his story and "Satan" (Lucifer) the savior of mankind.

Kirby then goes on to explain how mythology and the gods of world myth were his inspiration for his own line of later DC characters who are explicitly referred to as "new gods".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M50Mjdsh_iw

bluewaterrider
More and more it appears that Supergirl is both predictor and barometer of popular culture and current events.

Perhaps this conforms to what people call synchronicity (the simultaneous occurrence of events that appear significantly related but have no discernible causal connection)?

Interesting for me to note, all the same -- Supergirl recently got her own eponymous TV show for perhaps the first time in American history ...

Guess who ELSE recently got their own eponymous TV Show for perhaps the first time in American history?

Click the following for a HINT if you're having trouble...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=617865&pagenumber=6

bluewaterrider
Presentation throughout this thread has proven unusually difficult. For starters, very soon after posting it, KMC forums was altered so that only people registered for the site can see the images posted through its personal image hosting service, automatically cutting its audience to a fraction of what it was for many, many years before.
Then KMC froze most thread view counts, certainly this one, so that now, whether intentional or not, a general gauge of readership can not be had.
For a while, I even understand new registrations were halted, though apparently this was non-deliberate, a problem with the system that was corrected.

Synchronicity again, little doubt.

i'm thinking of this stuff largely because I'm coming to the end of a page that featured a surprising amount of feedback, and the happening upon of a surprising amount of proof that Marvel and DC writers get their inspiration, arguably the bulk of it, from non-secular sources. Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Jack Kirby ...

I also stumbled upon something that illustrates how the Abrahamic God is portrayed in works that can only be called "Luciferian", arguably none more so than the following:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=617865&pagenumber=6

bluewaterrider
Surfing the net the other day, I came across a meme that joked "If your story doesn't begin with the Big Bang, it's not the whole story."

I thought that over in relation to this thread, because the recent election has people in disbelief, some even exhibiting weird psychological behavior, and speaking of fascism, and rebellion, and end times and New World order. Trump seems the made-to-order bogeyman of those expecting the coming of an Anti-Christ in the real world, and, of course, though I do not think of comic characters as being real in the way actual people like Donald Trump are real, I do find it amazing how well comic characters and comic book story lines serve as a barometer for what is happening in world affairs and popular culture at any given time.

There is an idea, broadcast more now than ever, generally by alternate media, that there is a kind of "shadow" government at work in world affairs. Generally thought to be comprised of bankers, hereditary members of certain family bloodlines, and the odd, rare, and singularly resourceful initiate.

Does such an organization or network of people exist?
Don't know. That's not REALLY the focus of this thread.
However, there is a fairly well-known language of symbols associated with this group, and the philosophy of the group conforms amazingly well to what Wikipedia will give you if you look up terms like "Gnostic" "Luciferian", etcetera. And much of what we see in comics nowadays and indeed many years before now, perhaps even from the very beginning, reflects that.

You'll have at least a passing familiarity with some of these symbols and themes. Some you can find on the backs of dollar bills. These include the pyramid, the all-seeing eye, the (double-headed?) eagle, the owl, the snake, and stars represented as five-pointed prints and/or pentagrams. Back of alll this, mentioned at least by title is a being called "God".

Most people assume, if they have heard or seen the name at all, that this is the Biblical God whom Christians address as God the Father. A bit of research will reveal that this assumption, at least in the view of the aforementioned symbol makers, is likely incorrect.

I've talked about some of this before. I want to cover some new ground though, something only mentioned to my remembrance once in several dozen threads in various topics I've now created to this point. I do not know if, as a secular explanation, it is correct. Mainstream science says it isn't. However, beliefs don't require an accurate perception of reality, and I think there is evidence that, correct or not, THEY believe the premise to be true.
That belief is that the solar system is younger than we think. That the planets and the sun were worshipped as gods. That the planet Saturn was once aligned in a conjunction of planets that included Venus and Mars. That Saturn, in the earliest recorded traditions of man, was once ITSELF regarded as our sun.

If you are hearing that for the first time, note again that I am not asserting this is 100% true and happened. I was exposed to this via a film called "Remembering the End of the World" and merely thought it the most intriguing theory I have heard in the past 10 years.

For the briefest possible synopsis, check out the 1:06:00 mark and follow for about 3 minutes. If you check it out for a longer period of time, you might find yourself as fascinated as I found myself with their presentation.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oophJNlP-fk

I could not believe how well that would explain some things.
If the optical illusion produced by the planets were as those researchers describe,
then it would make sense for Venus to be given the title "morning star".
For it would be lit, presumably by our sun, in such a brilliant way as to be confused with our sun. It would explain why Saturn, a mere speck in the sky today, was regarded once as the Father of gods and kings. It would even, or perhaps the term should be " especially", explain why gods were often conflated with one another.

bluewaterrider
After watching the film mentioned and linked above, the following seems a remarkable blended illustration of the themes and motifs mentioned before.
If you can understand Kirby on the previous page in that interview, relating how Silver Surfer represented the Fallen Angel (Lucifer) and Galactus the "God of the Bible" (Kirby said this directly, watch the YouTube interview on the previous page) then you should be able to recognize this, from DCnU's Worlds' Finest, #17(?), as the same allegory.



http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30528408_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30528409_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30528410_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30528411_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30528412_image.jpg



DCnU presents Worlds Finest Karen Starr as Lucifer.
Appears as the Morningstar, bright shining sun, falling like lightning from Heaven. Beautiful, powerful, angelic being, savior to the world, or at least "Hel" (Helena Bertinelli, daughter of Earth-2 Batman, a.k.a. The Huntress).
Note how all motifs are wrapped into one, even the plasma discharges you'll hear mentioned in that "Remembering the End of the World" clip if you watch enough of it.

Parts of the code I have not cracked yet?
Whether Karen also represents the heretofore unmentioned Gnostic figure known as Sophia, whether they're also blending dragon and lady mentioned in the Bible in relation to this theme with the villain of this issue.

bluewaterrider
I was trying to research the spiritual beliefs of Brian Azzarello today.
I'm trying to be relatively comprehensive in scope. Already, for instance, I've been able to provide fairly solid evidence for what 3 MAJOR players in the comic world over the past several decades believed or still believe and spoken admissions of how this influenced or shaped their work (Grant Morrison, Jack Kirby, and Alan Moore).
Unfortunately, it's proved extremely difficult to find similar proof for Azzarello because the body of his WORK for the past 10 years contains so much material related to religion that it's proven impossible to isolate an interview that talks about HIM as opposed to his story. At best at this point, I can prove that, somewhat similar to Kirby, he IS or was trying to make a new mythology of gods that all of DC might be encouraged to adopt.


http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/30537030_image.jpg



----------------------------------



" ... Nrama: We've seen Wonder Woman dealing with the gods before, but it sounds like you're hoping to make this very different?

Azzarello: Yeah, because it kind of feels like the gods have always been somewhat sanitized.

Nrama: I think the difficulty is that these gods existed pretty much only for Wonder Woman. They weren't villains of the DCU. In the Marvel Universe, Loki is the reason the Avengers first teamed up. He was a god, yet he became a central villain and felt like a real threat.

Azzarello: Yeah. And if Cliff and I do our job correctly, people are going to want to use these gods in the DCU These gods will have... what's the word I'm looking for? Legs. They should have legs.

Nrama: You'd told me before that you want this book to have "no cuddly gods." Would it be more accurate to describe the gods as "horrific?" Are they the "horror" in Wonder Woman?

Azzarello: Yes. That's it. Wonder Woman is not horrible. Her villains should be. And she will go up against characters that can take her out. And hopefully there will be a lot of fear in this book because of that.

We're pretty well along now. And there are some really, really jarring moments that happen throughout this book ..."

bluewaterrider
Looking at this thread, I'm thinking it's s crying shame my exposure to the various supplementary materials I've encountered since post one, weren't known to me from DAY one. But there were, and still are, so many obstacles, that, were they not so frustrating to deal with, I'd be thankful I'd even gotten to this point. For instance, as posters before now mentioned or alluded to, as I myself covered on a previous page, the word "Luciferian" has connotations of evil. Arguably this is rightly so. It is certainly so from a Judeo-Christian perspective.
Unfortunately, such serves as a barrier to communication, especially when simply trying to identify it or illustrate what it actually looks like.
Frustrating for me? I looked up Merriam Webster and presented what is listed there and then busied myself explaining why the dictionary-style entry misleads people. What would have probably been far more helpful would have been to simply type the word "Luciferian" into Wikipedia, and not Merriam-Webster, for the Wikipedia actually describes what I've taken pains to illustrate over the course of many posts, and does so in a few paragraphs. Probably could have saved me a lot of time, even as getting even one or two more posters like Letters could have made this one of the best threads on KMC, organized and authoritative, and not merely informational and/or entertaining.

On the other hand, I've come across some remarkable people on my research journey that I would never have connected with in any meaningful way except through this searching process. A lot goes on in my life after all, apart from this forum, that never gets even hinted at here, as is true for most of you.

I still need to correct the omission of what Wiki has to say on the subject. It will help bridge the gap, no, chasm, between what I knew initially and expressed, and what I've learned in the interim and am in the process of sharing.
It's only a beginning, but is still necessary, and should have been provided long before.

Please note that this is NOT reflective of my own opinion on Luciferianism.
I do NOT, for instance, think it is a mistake to associate Luciferianism with Satanism, EXCEPT in the sense that it can prevent people from understanding how Luciferianism APPEARS. As a description of how Luciferianism APPEARS, however, Wikipedia is a lot more informative than Merriam-Webster:

-------------------
Luciferianism, General Beliefs (from Wikipedia)

"...Sometimes mistakenly associated with Satanism due to the Christian interpretation of the fallen angel, Luciferianism is a wholly different belief system and does not revere the devil figure or most characteristics typically affixed to Satan. Rather, Lucifer in this context is seen as one of many morning stars, a symbol of enlightenment, independence and human progression, and is often used interchangeably with similar figures from a range of ancient beliefs, such as the Greek titan Prometheus or the Jewish talmudic figure Lilith.

They support the protection of the natural world. Both the arts and sciences are crucial to human development, and thus both are cherished. Luciferians think that humans should be focused on this life and how to make the most of it every single day. The ability to recognize both good and evil, to accept that all actions have consequences, both positive and negative, and to actively influence one's environment, is a key factor.

For Luciferians, enlightenment is the ultimate goal. The basic Luciferian principles highlight truth and freedom of will, worshipping the inner self and one's ultimate potential. Traditional dogma is shunned as a basis for morality on the grounds that humans should not need deities or fear of eternal punishment to distinguish right from wrong and to do good. All ideas should be tested before being accepted, and even then one should remain skeptical because knowledge and understanding are fluid. Regardless of whether Lucifer is conceived of as a deity or as a mere archetype, he is a representation of ultimate knowledge and exploration: humanity's savior and a champion for continuing personal growth ..."

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider
When I first created this thread, I was shocked at some of the reactions I got.
Part of that was because I assumed a familiarity with Biblical material that KMC readers apparently do NOT have. Comic Books started out as a fairly distinctly American creation, after all, and America is or was known as a primarily Judeo-Christian nation ...

Needless to say, the demographics of KMC challenge those notions and any assumptions that go along with them.

So, I became a frequent visitor to the Religion forum on KMC, to try to learn what KMC posters DO know or believe.

The answers I got convinced me, of course, that I needed to give and illustrate a LOT of background info before I could be understood in any meaningful way whatsoever. Hopefully I've done this to the point that the perspective at least, can now be understood.


I always try to give corroboration for anything I present.
The following exchange should give the last piece of background info needed to understand the visuals of this thread, and confirm, even as Letters did before, even as the interviews with Kirby, Morrison, and Moore support, that there is definitely more than pure profit motive inspiring what we see from DC, that much of the work has mythical and/or religious inspiration, moreover that the narrative often conforms uncannily to Gnostic and or Luciferian beliefs, at least as would be defined by Wikipedia, Gnostics, Luciferians, and Christians.



Read the following with the above in mind:

--------------------------


Originally posted by bluewaterrider



With all due respect to Star, "Greatest I am" is about as atheist as the Pope.

He subscribes instead to something called Gnosticism. It's a form of Luciferianism, and its tenets, having names as exotic as those found in the Bible WITHOUT the name recognition of that work for most people, sounds like something from a bad drug trip.

Have you ever wondered how God could allow bad things to happen?
Have you ever wondered how the Bible could have God speak as if He Himself is the author of calamity in certain places?

Gnostics believe they have the answer.
A being would have to be so conflicted as to be mad in their view, and so the God identified by Christians as Jehovah, Yaweh, God the Father, etcetera IS mad in the Gnostic view, he is, in "fact" a being called the "Demiurge" or, more formally "Yaldabaoth", and is literally insane.

By contrast, however, Gnostics believe that the serpent of the garden, ie Lucifer, is actually a being who was concerned with the enlightenment of man, wisdom, hence the name "Light Bearer". The Bible is, in the Gnostic view, a sort of twisted propoganda form of the "real" story of God and Satan (ie Lucifer).

Hence, light is dark, black is white, good is evil, etcetera.

Re-examine what you see from "Greatest I Am" with this knowledge.

Better yet, examine the first 2 minutes (or as much as you choose) from the 7 minute clip below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_OZtVxNQtc

Better still, do just a little research on your own by Googling or Wikipedia-ing "demiurge" and Gnosticism.

Greatest I Am is not an atheist. He just believes, or at least claims, that the God of the Bible is the deceiver of mankind, not Satan.



Originally posted by Greatest I am


Some of what you know of Gnostic Christianity is now outdated. As a thinking man's religion, Gnostic Christianity has evolved along with man and God.

You do represent our old myths accurately though except for for your "Luciferianism" comment.

I do agree that we see the bible God as trying to keep man stupid but thank Eve more than the talking serpent from the Christian perspective and we do thank the serpent as you say but have it possessed by Sofia, our personification of wisdom, from our Gnostic Christian perspective.

Those differences is why many do not really understand Gnostic Christians. We have one view when criticizing Christianity and their vile theology and another when we are showing our myths.

Regards
DL

bluewaterrider
With all the above now out of the way, I think people can understand.
They may or may not agree with the arguments being made, but they should now have some idea of what they're looking at, unlike the poster from several pages back who seemed totally lost.


I'll start/restart with some easier ones. I think most people will have gotten now the
"I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" motif.

The Worlds Finest entry at the top of this page featuring Karen Starr as the Lucifer stand-in should be obvious even to people who have only read what is on this page and nothing else.

I'll return now, though to Apollo, for this character, as he's been written in DCnU is even harder to mistake as an allegorical Lucifer stand-in. For starters, as noted before, his appearance is like that of an earlier Destroying Angel:

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/30538419_image.jpg


Amazingly, this reflects not only Satan as a winged angel (and perhaps with the issue of his mouth even as Beezlebub, Lord of the Flies?) but also Apollo as he's apparently been described in ancient texts:



APOLLYON. The Greek name, meaning "Destroyer," given in Revelation 9:11 for "the angel of the bottomless pit" (in Hebrew called Abaddon), also identified as the king of the demonic "locusts" described in Revelation 9:3-10...In one manuscript, instead of Apollyon the text reads "Apollo," the Greek god of death and pestilence as well as of the sun, music, poetry, crops and herds, and medicine. Apollyon is no doubt the correct reading. But the name Apollo (Gk Apollon) was often linked in ancient Greek writings with the verb apollymi or apollyo, "destroy." From this time of Grotius, "Apollyon" has often been taken here to be a play on the name Apollo. The locust was an emblem of this god, who poisoned his victims, and the name "Apollyon" may be used allusively in Revelation to attack the pagan god and so indirectly the Roman emperor Domitian, who liked to be regarded as Apollo incarnate.

(Anchor Bible Dictionary)

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/a009.htm


... and the DCnU rendering of Apollo, unlike previous incarnations of the god in Wonder Woman comics, is decidedly demonic:



http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/30538420_image.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/30538421_image.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/30538422_image.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/30538423_image.jpg

bluewaterrider
Azzarello in his Wonder Woman run managed to make Apollo even more malevolent than his original myths. For all the destruction I've read his causing, in works like the Iliad for instance, quoted on the previous page, where Apollo kills scores of men for an affront to his priest, I've never read of Apollo killing his own oracles. He gets a measure of comeuppance in this series not very long after this story, but Azzarello succeeds in his boast; there is nothing that will fully reinvest Apollo with the sense of benign presence previous incarnations had after scenes like this :


http://s6d4.turboimg.net/t1/30538723_image.jpg http://s6d4.turboimg.net/t1/30538724_image.jpg

bluewaterrider
The symbols in this story take on new meaning if radical secular theories like the Electric Universe can be entertained, even if only for a moment.
Note that this theory (provided in the clip entitled "Remembering the End of the World", submitted in this thread a day or so ago), explains the strange persistence and recurrence of sun and crescent and lightning symbols, for instance. And how deity can usurp deity. And how the names of planets can have both male and female trappings.

The Thunderbolts of Jove/Jupiter/Zeus in myth make perfect sense if what people from thousands of years ago were seeing was an interplay of extraordinary plasma discharges. It would explain why Venus was known by so many names, and so many epithets. It would explain why Mars was regarded as both hero and villain. And, of course it would well explain why people like Azzarello, loving all things mythic, and sci-fi, and religious, and obscure, could have Diana supporting a disk-like object or shield that looks like the sun, with Zeus's thunderbolt symbol pictured ...




http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t/30538747_image.jpg

... and later wield it herself ...

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t/30538746_image.jpg

bluewaterrider
Some of you might be wondering how I could give Electric Universe even a moment's thought.

There are several reasons.

One is that it would explain an INCREDIBLE amount of world myth, including discrepancies with names, the fluidity of deities across cultures, and why people, in eras long before telescopes, gave such inordinate importance to heavenly objects they otherwise should barely have been able to see, let alone develop elaborate rituals of worship for (ie Saturn, etcetera).
Two is the awareness that the only thing we have informing us of anything our probes have not revealed is what we can gather from the various forms of light and electromagnetic energy we receive. And significant dispute from people like Halton Arp that our conclusions are correct.
Three? The proponents of Electric Universe, beginning with Velikovsky, though they may have gotten a few things wrong, have been able to predict things conventional astronomers have been wrong on. First coming to mind is a hot Venus, which was nearly directly opposite what anyone in mainstream science predicted before we actually landed probes there.

There are actually a few more reasons than those, but, ultimately it doesn't matter whether the EU people have everything correct, because my assertion is that the symbolmakers and users using the language we're talking about seem to take EU's conclusions for granted. If so, and their meaning derived from it, it'd be like arguing that Buddhists didn't build temples because Buddha himself didn't really exist or do the things his followers say he did. Buddhist temples exist regardless because people believe in Buddhism. Belief can still coordinate human activity and language communication, even if it isn't based on anything prove-ably tangible.
Star Wars would be another good example of this, by the way.

At any rate, one thing among many others that strikes me from the EU model is that the circle and disc representations we think of as sun and moon, especially, say on Islamic country flags and the like, might, in actuality, be representing ... Venus!

Sounds insane on first run.
But the literature of ancient texts speak of this as a reality.


Could it be? The video "Remembering the End of the World" makes a case for this surprisingly strongly. Myself, I only need wonder if Halton Arp's theory on red shift is right. If it is, if he's right, then our Universe and Solar System could be a LOT younger than most people think, and nearly everything EU posits becomes possible.

That would have interesting implications for the following.

(Notice, by the way, typing in "polar configuration Saturn". will get about the same results "polar configuration Venus" did here.)

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/30538853_image.jpg

Now note this, which works if Diana represents the Moon here, as surely as DC even has Apollo state directly that he IS the Sun, but it works if he is the warlike Mars being kissed by Venus here as well ...


http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/30538854_image.jpg

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