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This is Pre reboot DC. This is Beyonder at his Prime. Can he succeed? His goal is to rule the Universe, not destroy it.

Beyonder can do it.

He can't.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Beyonder can do it.

Nope. He will be stopped like every villain ever.

stoned

You mean by Superman?

Cosmic Armour Superman, no less.

Originally posted by SamZED
You mean by Superman?

A few beings that would outright treat him like trash

Primal Monitor
The Presence
The Great Evil Beast
Mandrakk
Cosmic Armor Superman
Mxy
Spectre with full back up from the Presence
Batmite
Original Ion

A few Beings that would give him a challenge. Some would win, while some would lose.
Final Crisis Darkseid with prep
COIE Anti-Monitor
COIE Spectre
Extant with the Worlogog
Emperor Joker
Amazo with the Worlogog
Zero Hour Parallax
Hourman with the Worlogog

If all else fails, Lucifer comes out and manipulate him into being his *****.

Jeez, you don't even need Lucifer to trick him.

Luthor/Joker could do it, to name but two. Joker even has form. Constantine would absolutely twist him inside out.

In short, he's powerful, yes, but dumb.

Originally posted by SquallX
A few beings that would outright treat him like trash

Primal Monitor
The Presence
The Great Evil Beast
Mandrakk
Cosmic Armor Superman
Mxy
Spectre with full back up from the Presence
Batmite
Original Ion

A few Beings that would give him a challenge. Some would win, while some would lose.
Final Crisis Darkseid with prep
COIE Anti-Monitor
COIE Spectre
Extant with the Worlogog
Emperor Joker
Amazo with the Worlogog
Zero Hour Parallax
Hourman with the Worlogog

If all else fails, Lucifer comes out and manipulate him into being his *****. lmao rabid fanboy crap

It depends on what you mean by "Universe". If by that you mean all of DC ever, including every character at their most powerful then Absolutely no. But if you mean could Beyonder take over DC Universe 1 before it's reboot, then yes.

He could do it

Originally posted by SquallX
A few beings that would outright treat him like trash

Primal Monitor
The Presence
The Great Evil Beast
Mandrakk
Cosmic Armor Superman
Mxy
Spectre with full back up from the Presence
Batmite
Original Ion

A few Beings that would give him a challenge. Some would win, while some would lose.
Final Crisis Darkseid with prep
COIE Anti-Monitor
COIE Spectre
Extant with the Worlogog
Emperor Joker
Amazo with the Worlogog
Zero Hour Parallax
Hourman with the Worlogog

If all else fails, Lucifer comes out and manipulate him into being his *****. is this serious?

Originally posted by bbrem123
is this serious?

In fairness, some of it is pretty spot on.

GEB, Presence, Spectre with full Presence...

Right, right???

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

In short, he's powerful, yes, but dumb.
Beyonder isn't "dumb" good friend.

That aside, this isn't a battle of wits/intellect etc. It's about power.

Whatever who wins, but imo, only the Primal Monitor is akin to what Beyonder was. (aside from the 4th-wall symbolic crap)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder isn't "dumb" good friend.

That aside, this isn't a battle of wits/intellect etc. It's about power.

Whatever who wins, but imo, only the Primal Monitor is akin to what Beyonder was. (aside from the 4th-wall symbolic crap)

Dumb was perhaps the wrong word to use.

And why wouldn't it be a battle of wits/intellect?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Jeez, you don't even need Lucifer to trick him.

Luthor/Joker could do it, to name but two. Joker even has form. Constantine would absolutely twist him inside out.

In short, he's powerful, yes, but dumb.

This.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Dumb was perhaps the wrong word to use.
The only thing he was truly ignorant about was desire/incompleteness.
This is because he was all with no beginning or end beyond infinity infinity.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

And why wouldn't it be a battle of wits/intellect?
At this scale/level there's no time for that. A snap of a finger and a multiverse goes. (a few here can do that)
... heck, Beyonder once was pondering a thought, and this caused universeS to collapse.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
lmao rabid fanboy crap Seriously, what is it with you? There was no reason to come in here and start with the flaming. If you disagree with his post then refute it.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
lmao rabid fanboy crap

What is faulty about the list he presented?

I'll make it easier, cite 2 examples from each list that lacks legitimacy.

Originally posted by Badabing
Seriously, what is it with you? There was no reason to come in here and start with the flaming. If you disagree with his post then refute it. the fact his constant bias is bordering on trolling , why try and refute something that gets overlooking due to insane bias

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
What is faulty about the list he presented?

I'll make it easier, cite 2 examples from each list that lacks legitimacy. Anti Moniter ,Batmite, Ion and Emperor Joker just for staters stand no chance

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Anti Moniter ,Batmite, Ion and Emperor Joker just for staters stand no chance

Anti-Monitor- He stands more than a chance against The Beyonder.

ION- The most powerful version makes it more than interesting for the Cosmic Jheri Curl.

Emperor Joker- A psychopath with the power of a 5th dimensional imp against The Beyonder. Unless The Beyonder's naivete is addressed this is a problem.

spite against DC

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Anti-Monitor- He stands more than a chance against The Beyonder.

ION- The most powerful version makes it more than interesting for the Cosmic Jheri Curl.

Emperor Joker- A psychopath with the power of a 5th dimensional imp against The Beyonder. Unless The Beyonder's naivete is addressed this is a problem. non of the have anything in comparison to challenge the feats or power the Beyonder had

Originally posted by Insane Titan
lmao rabid fanboy crap

Why don't you prove me wrong.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
What is faulty about the list he presented?

I'll make it easier, cite 2 examples from each list that lacks legitimacy.

bat mite (save for WF)
Mxy (save for WF)
Thought Robot
Mandrakk
Ion (regardless of the version)

All are out of place.

2nd:

with the Worlogog, one can perhaps challenge the Beyonder, definitely can't overpower him, though Amazo only copied half the power and didn't do anything so im not sure why is he on the list.

FC Darksed is extremely powerful, but in a straight-up fight he doesn't stand a chance because he was weak.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
spite against DC

Try and explaining how exactly.

What is Primal Monitor going to do against PRB? Send Mandrakk after him?

If there was no plot device that could stop PRB before, what chances does DC have?

PRB'll hit the entire JLA with a blast that would slag dimensions and then it's a wrap.

Originally posted by SquallX
A few beings that would outright treat him like trash

Primal Monitor
The Presence
The Great Evil Beast
Mandrakk
Cosmic Armor Superman
Mxy
Spectre with full back up from the Presence
Batmite
Original Ion

A few Beings that would give him a challenge. Some would win, while some would lose.
Final Crisis Darkseid with prep
COIE Anti-Monitor
COIE Spectre
Extant with the Worlogog
Emperor Joker
Amazo with the Worlogog
Zero Hour Parallax
Hourman with the Worlogog

If all else fails, Lucifer comes out and manipulate him into being his *****.

You're a funny guy.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
What is Primal Monitor going to do against PRB? Send Mandrakk after him?

If there was no plot device that could stop PRB before, what chances does DC have?

PRB'll hit the entire JLA with a blast that would slag dimensions and then it's a wrap.

First, what makes you think that Beyonder is superior to the Presence?

Because the Presence is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by SquallX
Why don't you prove me wrong. I would put the time and effort in if I thought you was actually worth it

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Because the Presence is not omnipotent. Shots fired.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Because the Presence is not omnipotent.

True, the Presence has had low showings/moments, but even then an argument could be made that Presence allowed those showings (for example: Lucifer's rebellion was allowed to occur because it was part of God's plan) but meh...

Anyway, The Beyonder isn't omnipotent either, your point being?

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Because the Presence is not omnipotent.

LIES!

Beyonder wrecks DC

Beyonder may not be omnipotent, but there was no abstract being that could touch him apparently. LT couldn't do anything, and we already have GEB on panel --needing--, plus the Presence admitting to external forces beyond his control.

PRB is definitely external from him, i'd say.

Originally posted by operator616
bat mite (save for WF)
Mxy (save for WF)


Why would WORLD'S FUNNIEST not count?

As to the Worlogog, I don't think the description of "Infinite power" can be dismissed as hyperbple. Given that fact, the wielder should be able to handle The Beyonder.

Let's cut short some stuff:

Jynocidus believes that, as necessity flows from the LT, if any character (fictional or otherwise) NEEDS to do something, they do so because the LT allows it.

Captain American needs to save the day? LT.
Batman's parents are killed? LT.
Marty McFly has to go back in time? LT.
Bill Clinton needs to fool around with Lewinsky? LT.
I need to write this post? LT.

Ergo, it doesn't matter what you say, its all necessitated - and hence, allowed - by the LT.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Let's cut short some stuff:

Jynocidus believes that, as necessity flows from the LT, if any character (fictional or otherwise) NEEDS to do something, they do so because the LT allows it.

Captain American needs to save the day? LT.
Batman's parents are killed? LT.
Marty McFly has to go back in time? LT.
Bill Clinton needs to fool around with Lewinsky? LT.
I need to write this post? LT.

Ergo, it doesn't matter what you say, its all necessitated - and hence, allowed - by the LT.

all praise is due to the most high, of course.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Beyonder may not be omnipotent, but there was no abstract being that could touch him apparently. LT couldn't do anything, and we already have GEB on panel --needing--, plus the Presence admitting to external forces beyond his control.

PRB is definitely external from him, i'd say.

Yeah, going by this logic, Puma while empowered by the power of the multiverse could have killed the Beyonder, Doom stole Beyonder's powers with one of Galactus' technological devices, Beyonder didn't have complete control over time/history, so yeah, nitpicking that one single instance from the Lucifer series to downplay the Presence isn't going to work well for you.

Besides, Yahweh from Lucifer (who said that there are forces external to him) is confirmed to be God (Vertigo Encyclopedia):

http://i.imgur.com/j3ZSe8d.jpg?1

Note: God in Lucifer is mostly dissociated from the one in mainstream DC. I mean, we see him depart creation at the end of the series, but in mainstream, he was still functional. Not to mention that Elaine becoming the new "God" was completely ignored.

Tell me........who could be greater than God? Only the writers could. We even see him hold the whole creation in one hand in Lucifer #68:

http://i.imgur.com/MPRqO8x.jpg?1

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Why would WORLD'S FUNNIEST not count?

As to the Worlogog, I don't think the description of "Infinite power" can be dismissed as hyperbple. Given that fact, the wielder should be able to handle The Beyonder.

Not saying it wouldn't count, it's just that the user didn't mention that he/she is using WF version.

Technically speaking, every "universal" being has "infinite power", which is why there are levels of infinity. Beyonder is at the top of that level.

Don't these my abstract is better than your abstract fights usually boil down to a stalemate besides a little bias on each side?

Are we trying to see if Beyonder can take DC as it is..or with all the characters at their most powerful in it? Cause if that's the case Beyonder wouldn't even be able to take over Marvel xD.

Like if he showed up in all his glory, but when he arrived Protege was already there being a douche with three faces and Thanos had the HOTU and the IG, I don't think he would have been able to do much lol...He may take Protege (since he got punked by Scathan and Beyonder was taking the celestials down in fisticuffs) but I don't really see him getting past Thanos so easily if at all but that's a whole other topic in itself.

Operator, is what he's holding the entirety of Marvel too? Sometimes people like to argue in favor of one ft encompassing both companies or whatever. So you are really saying that Presence = TOAA?

To my understanding, PRB was supposedly beyond both Heaven and Hell. Good and Evil weren't anything to him, he was beyond such things. Mixing them both up would basically say PRB > Heaven, Hell , GEB, Presence, Celestials, Dark Celestials, Angels, Infernals.....

That's where I'm coming from.

And for the record, I know we're talking about comic stuff but this "God himself" talk is nothing but trash.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
I would put the time and effort in if I thought you was actually worth it

Nice one.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
And for the record, I know we're talking about comic stuff but this "God himself" talk is nothing but trash.

Depart from me heathen savage!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Depart from me heathen savage!



posts filled with the mark of the beast, idolatry sickens me

Beyonder was definitely Omnipotent!

Only limited by whatever cap he put on himself.

From allowing alcohol to affect him,
to tanking a blast that melts BillionS of UniverseS, making him cough once,
to getting high on heroin,
to creating from nothingness a reality so immense,
that next to the trans-infinite Multiverse its like putting an ocean next to a drop of water. swank
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, going by this logic, Puma while empowered by the power of the multiverse could have killed the Beyonder, Doom stole Beyonder's powers with one of Galactus' technological devices
But in all seriousness,
Puma was a flee to Beyonder just like the LT and All there is.
The future-Doom comedy came after future-Doom got stomped like another flee.
A comedy with one aim in mind, to make Beyonder feel "desire" while de-powered,
in order to have a reason to visit the multiverse/616 the next year in SWII,
in order to understand this "desire" he felt while de-powered.

That aside though,
since this isn't Beyonder contributing/consenting/aiding his own murder via Puma,
and I don't believe the DC side has big G's tech which can only be used
when Beyonder puts his guard down and is actually trying to help his opponent,
like in the future-Doom case from SWI ...

... I don't see how it can be used against him here.
Originally posted by operator616

Technically speaking, every "universal" being has "infinite power", which is why there are levels of infinity. Beyonder is at the top of that level.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Operator, is what he's holding the entirety of Marvel too? Sometimes people like to argue in favor of one ft encompassing both companies or whatever.

No, "all of creation" refers to Yahweh's multiverse.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
So you are really saying that Presence = TOAA?


No. But that doesn't mean DC doesn't have a concept equivalent to TOAA.

Here's 2 examples where the writer is shown on Panel:

Grant Morrison in Animal Man #26:

http://i.imgur.com/tr8jCRQ.jpg

Mike Carlin, in Superman: Man of Steel #75:

http://i.imgur.com/Qnf8Kil.jpg

There are even more examples i could bring up.

Originally posted by Jynocidus


To my understanding, PRB was supposedly beyond both Heaven and Hell. Good and Evil weren't anything to him, he was beyond such things. Mixing them both up would basically say PRB > Heaven, Hell , GEB, Presence, Celestials, Dark Celestials, Angels, Infernals.....



Yeah well, The same thing applies to the Presence

JLA Paradise Lost #3:

http://i.imgur.com/Tn9GSWQ.jpg?1

"The Presence is nowhere and everywhere.......he's heaven and earth, perhaps even hell itself"

The Spectre v4 #10:

http://i.imgur.com/Bgqmb8q.jpg?1

"the divine Presence that contains and surpasses everyone and everything in creation"

Originally posted by Jynocidus

Presence = TOAA?
No.
Originally posted by Jynocidus

To my understanding, PRB was supposedly beyond both Heaven and Hell. Good and Evil weren't anything to him, he was beyond such things.
Actually, not supposedly. Everything that's withIN reality, or part of reality,
of all the realities Eternity/Infinity make up, and of all the LT surveys,
which includes Marvel's heaven/hell Yahweh/Lucifer, all of it.

All of that, was part of the drop of water, next to Beyonder the ocean.

"God?" ... Beyonder was his own supreme being/eternal/no beginning, no end,
self-sufficient, or as Shooter put it: "like God before Genesis"
the creator/embodiment of everything beyond, beyond, beyond.

Like I said prior, only Primal Monitor fits the bill, imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master

that next to the trans-infinite Multiverse its like putting an ocean next to a drop of water.



The multiverse wasn't trans-infinite back then.

And the Presence has held all of creation in one hand. Not to mention that he "breathed" the universeS into being (Supergirl: Wings):

http://i.imgur.com/kUSBC33.jpg?1

Originally posted by Mr Master

But in all seriousness,
Puma was a flee to Beyonder just like the LT and All there is.
The future-Doom comedy came after future-Doom got stomped like another flee.
A comedy with one aim in mind, to make Beyonder feel "desire" while de-powered,
in order to have a reason to visit the multiverse/616 the next year in SWII,
in order to understand this "desire" he felt while de-powered.

That aside though,
since this isn't Beyonder contributing/consenting/aiding his own murder via Puma,
and I don't believe the DC side has big G's tech which can only be used
when Beyonder puts his guard down and is actually trying to help his opponent,
like in the future-Doom case from SWI ...

... I don't see how it can be used against him here.


We've discussed this before. I can't change your mind, so agree to disagree.

Unless Yahweh steps in..Beyond wrecks DC

LT holds megaversal energies and couldn't stop PRB, I don't see how Presence holding a multiverse is supposed to make him flinch.

Originally posted by operator616

The multiverse wasn't trans-infinite back then.
I'm sure you got that scan that says the Multiverse wasn't trans-infinite.
But if instead, you have 10 scans reminding me the multiverse is infinite,
don't bother posting it, since I rather see the scan that says it isn't trans.
Originally posted by operator616

And the Presence has held all of creation in one hand. Not to mention that he "breathed" the universeS into being (Supergirl: Wings)
So, he held a drop of water on one hand. Cool.

Many drops to go before making a river let alone an ocean.
Originally posted by operator616

We've discussed this before. I can't change your mind, so agree to disagree.
Wait, so the thread starter stipulated Beyonder with wanting to die to for-fill a role,
or did he give the DC side Galactus' tech to be used when Beyonder is helping the destroyed DC side,
like he did with the future-Doom?

Let me know, cause I was unaware of that. Otherwise, it's completely irrelevant.

Beyonder

Originally posted by operator616
The multiverse wasn't trans-infinite back then.

And the Presence has held all of creation in one hand. Not to mention that he "breathed" the universeS into being (Supergirl: Wings):

http://i.imgur.com/kUSBC33.jpg?1



We've discussed this before. I can't change your mind, so agree to disagree.

Who do you think the other beings who are above the Presence are?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Who do you think the other beings who are above the Presence are? Kyle.

Why does Presence need to play a role? I thought god was the creator of all things? He seems to acknowledge some other creator in that Supergirl: Wings scan.

Don't know why people dislike these Supreme entity debates, i think they are interesting as hell, lol. I do have a question for Mr. Master and Op616 - the term "Creation", in the scan with the Presence, posted earlier, do u guys think it refers to just Vertigo, Vertigo+DC, or does it includes everything in term of all ideas, concepts and history within THAT comic storied development? In other words, does it encompass EVERYTHING - Overmonitor and his realm included?

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Why does Presence need to play a role? I thought god was the creator of all things? He seems to acknowledge some other creator in that Supergirl: Wings scan.

i don't think that was the Presence. I think he was referring to the Presence.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Why does Presence need to play a role? I thought god was the creator of all things? He seems to acknowledge some other creator in that Supergirl: Wings scan.

Nah, the "creator" in Supergirl, is the Presence, here's a scan from an issue of Supergirl (supergirl v4 #49), around the same time, referencing him:

http://i.imgur.com/0CfnCaF.jpg?1

That aside, i could bring up many more "creators" in DC, apart from the Presence. Let me know. Same thing applies to Marvel btw.


Originally posted by Golgo13
Who do you think the other beings who are above the Presence are?

The writers, most likely.

But Mike Carey also said in a letters page of Lucifer #29, that there was a creation much earlier than God's which wasn't created by him (the one which Silk Man comes from):

http://i.imgur.com/fe5rw0n.jpg?1

.........so maybe him or them.....whoever it may be (we don't know who it is).

Originally posted by Jynocidus
LT holds megaversal energies and couldn't stop PRB, I don't see how Presence holding a multiverse is supposed to make him flinch.

After LT struggles with Nebulos and his staff, sure.

And that "megaversal" showing wasn't until 2006 which was confirmed in LT's bio (pertaining his appearance in Adventures of X-Men #12).

Still, i do believe that LT was a multiversal power back then (probably Lucifer level) but not as powerful as he became later.

I dont keep up with Supergirl, but whoever she was talking too looks more like a supreme entity that i'd accept than The Presence. Some chubby grey haired demon named Yahweh...lol

hulk wins

Originally posted by Jynocidus
I dont keep up with Supergirl, but whoever she was talking too looks more like a supreme entity that i'd accept than The Presence. Some chubby grey haired demon named Yahweh...lol

That wasn't the Supreme deity who was shown on panel, in the 1st place.


Originally posted by dynamix
Don't know why people dislike these Supreme entity debates, i think they are interesting as hell, lol. I do have a question for Mr. Master and Op616 - the term "Creation", in the scan with the Presence, posted earlier, do u guys think it refers to just Vertigo, Vertigo+DC, or does it includes everything in term of all ideas, concepts and history within THAT comic storied development? In other words, does it encompass EVERYTHING - Overmonitor and his realm included?

It was just Yahweh's multiverse (in Vertigo only). Because we later see Elaine and the others merge this creation of Yahweh's with Lucifer's multiverse and Elaine's (universe). And in this merged creation, Elaine became "God", which was completely ignored in mainstream DC.

Overmonitor is dissociated from the Presence, that was just Morrison bringing up a new creation story with a new supreme being (funny thing though, is that Morrison was the one who created the term "The Presence" as well, back in the 90s, in JLA) for the sake of a singular story arc. Which isn't exactly something new.

-------

Here's 2 other creation stories for the sake of a story arc. In Warlord v1 #132, we see Anu/Una (unheard of before) create the universe on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/UXKnmow.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nASd89F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xIpmYkT.jpg

In Dr Fate v2 #3, we see a multiversal creation story on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/tEHZ0dX.jpg

There are more examples even.

Originally posted by dynamix
Don't know why people dislike these Supreme entity debates, i think they are interesting as hell, lol. I do have a question for Mr. Master and Op616 - the term "Creation", in the scan with the Presence, posted earlier, do u guys think it refers to just Vertigo, Vertigo+DC, or does it includes everything in term of all ideas, concepts and history within THAT comic storied development? In other words, does it encompass EVERYTHING - Overmonitor and his realm included?
DC isn't my thing good friend. But I'm sure opr is more than capable of giving you fine insight concerning DC cosmology.

*edit ... damn, the kid is already there. Well then, there ya go.

^^lol, s'all good, brutha.

Thanks, Op616, very interesting stuff - totally suprised they had a creation story utilizing the Brahma's sleep cycle, lol! cool sh!t.

Nobody in DC or Marvel can create. In one of those "creation stories" the worm thing twisted and turned "for all eternity" which is a subordinate of the LT. I'm not trying to be bias when I don't accept DC characters as supreme, it's just every time I try and give them a chance they fail to impress me.

Writers aren't even creators. They're manipulators. They produce comics with thoughts, paper, and ink. All of which already exist. Real creation is a mystery.

Originally posted by operator616

After LT struggles with Nebulos and his staff, sure.
What makes Nebulos such a weak character, just curious?

Also, we should keep in mind this was 1967, nearly 20 years before Beyonder appeared.
Originally posted by operator616

And that "megaversal" showing wasn't until 2006 which was confirmed in LT's bio (pertaining his appearance in Adventures of X-Men #12).
Yea but if you think about it opr, prior to that it was the original Brothers from DC vs Marvel.

As you know, the issue was approved by Carlin who had his name printed.
The Spectre being involved.
And as we discussed in that other thread the look of the Brothers in AotXMen.
This .. as you know, was the original plot, and was never changed on panel,
it was changed ... as you mentioned, in the LT's 2006 bio.

Thoughts friend?
Originally posted by operator616

Still, i do believe that LT was a multiversal power back then (probably Lucifer level) but not as powerful as he became later.
Imo, the LT has never been "upgraded" in status or power.

LT surveys all Marvel, whatever that is at the time it is what it is. Imo.

Originally posted by operator616
That wasn't the Supreme deity who was shown on panel, in the 1st place.




It was just Yahweh's multiverse (in Vertigo only). Because we later see Elaine and the others merge this creation of Yahweh's with Lucifer's multiverse and Elaine's (universe). And in this merged creation, Elaine became "God", which was completely ignored in mainstream DC.

Overmonitor is dissociated from the Presence, that was just Morrison bringing up a new creation story with a new supreme being (funny thing though, is that Morrison was the one who created the term "The Presence" as well, back in the 90s, in JLA) for the sake of a singular story arc. Which isn't exactly something new.

-------

Here's 2 other creation stories for the sake of a story arc. In Warlord v1 #132, we see Anu/Una (unheard of before) create the universe on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/UXKnmow.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nASd89F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xIpmYkT.jpg

In Dr Fate v2 #3, we see a multiversal creation story on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/tEHZ0dX.jpg

There are more examples even.

Good stuff.

Who is Silk Man?

Originally posted by dynamix
totally suprised they had a creation story utilizing the Brahma's sleep cycle, lol! cool sh!t.

Yeah, though the "trimurti" (Brahma included) aren't responsible for everything in DC, that was just in one story. Though they are significant. We see Cronus in a Wonder Woman story collecting their power to achieve the full power of the Godwave, an in turn, the power of the Presence himself. He actually manages to achieve that but only for a moment before he's overwhelmed by the power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What makes Nebulos such a weak character, just curious?

Also, we should keep in mind this was 1967, nearly 20 years before Beyonder appeared.



Because Nebulos didn't display anything impressive on panel (though his staff contained those powerful evils but meh.....still not impressed). And the fact that their battle constituted of throwing some rocks around or something akin to that.

Yeah, and LT never did anything siginificant before SW 2, apart from that what if (even then, he wasn't that impressive).

Originally posted by Mr Master


Yea but if you think about it opr, prior to that it was the original Brothers from DC vs Marvel.

As you know, the issue was approved by Carlin who had his name printed.
The Spectre being involved.
And as we discussed in that other thread the look of the Brothers in AotXMen.
This .. as you know, was the original plot, and was never changed on panel,
it was changed ... as you mentioned, in the LT's 2006 bio.

Thoughts friend?


The main point is that, the megaversal showing was after SW 2 happened (however you see it, be it in 1997 or 2006)

Originally posted by Mr Master


Imo, the LT has never been "upgraded" in status or power.

LT surveys all Marvel, whatever that is at the time it is what it is. Imo.

Had LT done something impressive before that time, id agree.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Good stuff.

Who is Silk Man?

A Lucifer foe. Though i don't recall being impressed with him tbh.

Cosmic Armor Superman is metafictional, and prime STORY of DC universe. Even writer can't vanish his story.
He may defeat beyonder from 4th wall, because Beyonder is not writer's avatar. He is only a character.

Off course, if 4th wall breaking is not accepted, and, if everything shoud be based on feat, He will lose.

^ that logic doesn't work.

Here's an example of She hulk and Renee Witterstaetter (Editor of the issue) with an imprisoned John Bryne (the writer of that issue):

http://i.imgur.com/79arrTs.jpg

That's fourth wall breaking as well.

Here's John featured in a fantastic Four issue:

http://i.imgur.com/achmj8W.jpg

Here's John again in Uncanny X Men:

http://i.imgur.com/gVxDgmw.jpg

there are many more.

Heck, let's go even further than that, here's Marvel Encyclopedia listing Earth-1218 (the real world, our world) as part of the mainstream mutiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/1b5wxPW.jpg?1

So that means that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope. He will be stopped like every villain ever.

stoned Thanos, Mxy, have done it basically. This isn't a comic where the good guy wins in the end. Mary using some objectivity.

Originally posted by operator616
^ that logic doesn't work.

Here's an example of She hulk and Renee Witterstaetter (Editor of the issue) with an imprisoned John Bryne (the writer of that issue):

http://i.imgur.com/79arrTs.jpg

That's fourth wall breaking as well.

Here's John featured in a fantastic Four issue:

http://i.imgur.com/achmj8W.jpg

Here's John again in Uncanny X Men:

http://i.imgur.com/gVxDgmw.jpg

there are many more.

Heck, let's go even further than that, here's Marvel Encyclopedia listing Earth-1218 (the real world, our world) as part of the mainstream mutiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/1b5wxPW.jpg?1

So that means that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers.

IN interview, Morrison said that only never ending STORY can defeat mandrakk.
In DC, It is Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman is embodiment of Superman's STORY itself. If Beyonder's STORY is weaker than Superman's, He can't defeat Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman will change the course of the story to beat Beyonder.

And, If you say that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers, Superman is creator of Real world aka QWEWQ from All-Star Superman. And, QWEWQ appear in JLA too.

Originally posted by operator616

Because Nebulos didn't display anything impressive on panel (though his staff contained those powerful evils but meh.....still not impressed). And the fact that their battle constituted of throwing some rocks around or something akin to that.
Scathan didn't do anything impressive at all, except defeat Protege,
and he didn't even get to lift a rock.

In the same principle, (In his only appearance) Nebulos gave the most powerful entity a hard time,
which speaks volumes about Nebulos/Staff.

As for the cheesiness of the battle, 1967 friend, you should cut dem some slack.
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, and LT never did anything siginificant before SW 2, apart from that what if (even then, he wasn't that impressive).
Interesting. Now, recall how many times a story called for the LT to do something "significant" ... and yet, the LT could not? (prior to SWI-II)

The What If feat is big. LT went as far as he needed to go per plot.
Originally posted by operator616

The main point is that, the megaversal showing was after SW 2 happened (however you see it, be it in 1997 or 2006)

Originally posted by operator616

Had LT done something impressive before that time, id agree.

Lack of feats isn't the character's fault, he's the LT, a boring read, we ain't gonna see much of him,
but I'm more interested in seeing what "impressive" feats did he attempt, and fail,
and then later on was able to perform.

Imo, that's what constitutes an upgrade or otherwise.

I love PR Beyonder, but I think Primal Monitor and World's Funnest Mxy have the juice to stop him. IMO Beyonder would pwn everyone else though (including GEB, CA Supes, Lucifer, etc.)

Originally posted by CatL18
IN interview, Morrison said that only never ending STORY can defeat mandrakk.
In DC, It is Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman is embodiment of Superman's STORY itself. If Beyonder's STORY is weaker than Superman's, He can't defeat Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman will change the course of the story to beat Beyonder.

And, If you say that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers, Superman is creator of Real world aka QWEWQ from All-Star Superman. And, QWEWQ appear in JLA too.

It wasn't just the interview, it was stated in the comic itself as well. and it doesn't really matter if Superman's story is the strongest in DC (which is understandable, he's the most popular character), because the Beyonder is in Marvel. So when Thought Robot displays power enough to be millions of times greater than a bunch of high end multiversal abstracts, then we'll talk whether he can over-power the Beyonder or not.

And i could prove you wrong by saying that this concept was present even Pre-Crisis, here's 2 examples (of Earth-Prime) from separate JLA issues, one from the 70s, the other from the 80s:

http://i.imgur.com/AiEzzYs.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/0KsJrDr.jpg

I guess i shouldn't tell you what happened to that earth (since the crisis happened).

Which is why what i was saying, is that this shouldn't be taken seriously.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Scathan didn't do anything impressive at all, except defeat Protege,
and he didn't even get to lift a rock.

In the same principle, (In his only appearance) Nebulos gave the most powerful entity a hard time,
which speaks volumes about Nebulos/Staff.

As for the cheesiness of the battle, 1967 friend, you should cut dem some slack.



Well, at least in Scathan's case, the implication was pretty clear to me regarding his power-level.

We see him holding Beyonder + Protege in a hand and being present with LT and friends in the realm of cosmic beings (which encompasses the whole multiverse) outside of all reality. That's quite different from throwing some rocks around. Not to mention that Scathan was introduced less than a year after that FFA issue where it was mentioned the Celestials have trans-infinite power-level. Tom DeFalco being the editor-in-chief for both of those stories (i dunno, perhaps there's some sort of connection).

I didn't get any implications from Nebulos to suggest that he's that powerful. And i can say with full confidence, that if Nebulos (with his power being equivalent of how he originally portrayed to be) resurfaced and went up against current LT, he'd be blinked out of existence.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Interesting. Now, recall how many times a story called for the LT to do something "significant" ... and yet, the LT could not? (prior to SWI-II)

The What If feat is big. LT went as far as he needed to go per plot.

Lack of feats isn't the character's fault, he's the LT, a boring read, we ain't gonna see much of him,
but I'm more interested in seeing what "impressive" feats did he attempt, and fail,
and then later on was able to perform.

Imo, that's what constitutes an upgrade or otherwise.

In the What if? issue, Korvac defied LT after he carried out his "ultimate punishment" in the form of a super-nova (Lol).
And after that the LT himself said that he is pretty helpless, so that issue isn't exactly one of LT's shining performances.

Also, funny how after re-looking at that issue, i saw LT using the "continuum of universeS" interchangeably with the multiverse.......not that i wanna discuss this topic again but....just saying.

Originally posted by operator616
^ that logic doesn't work.

How powerful do you think Cosmic Armor Superman is?

Originally posted by operator616
It wasn't just the interview, it was stated in the comic itself as well. and it doesn't really matter if Superman's story is the strongest in DC (which is understandable, he's the most popular character), because the Beyonder is in Marvel. So when Thought Robot displays power enough to be millions of times greater than a bunch of high end multiversal abstracts, then we'll talk whether he can over-power the Beyonder or not.

And i could prove you wrong by saying that this concept was present even Pre-Crisis, here's 2 examples (of Earth-Prime) from separate JLA issues, one from the 70s, the other from the 80s:

http://i.imgur.com/AiEzzYs.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/0KsJrDr.jpg

I guess i shouldn't tell you what happened to that earth (since the crisis happened).

Which is why what i was saying, is that this shouldn't be taken seriously.
Cosmic Armor Superman is larger than multiverse in jar. and, He became infinitely powerful through the fight with mandrakk.
Even if You don't accept morrison's metafictional view, He can unlimitedly adapt to enemy's attack. Mandrakk could attack Superman from 4th wall. Beyonder can't.

And I think that in interview, Morrison said that QWEWQ is us.

^ larger than a multiverse that is constituted of 52 universes, which is infinitely smaller than a multiverse constituted of infinite universes (in case of Marvel)? Sure. Yeah, i read the comic, and this "Cosmic Armor" of his which can "adapt to any threat" got destroyed in the end.

I already explained the 4th wall thingy, im not going to repeat myself again.

Originally posted by CatL18
How powerful do you think Cosmic Armor Superman is?

Id rank him below Lucifer/Michael.

Originally posted by operator616
^ larger than a multiverse that is constituted of 52 universes, which is infinitely smaller than a multiverse constituted of infinite universes (in case of Marvel)? Sure. Yeah, i read the comic, and this "Cosmic Armor" of his which can "adapt to any threat" got destroyed in the end.

I already explained the 4th wall thingy, im not going to repeat myself again.



Id rank him below Lucifer/Michael.
I think 52 universes has pararell dimensions, divergent time line, microverse,etc.so, It is actually constituted of infinite universe.
And I already explained mandrakk attacked Superman from 4th wall. It is not ordinary attack. But if 4th wall breaking is not accepted, You are right.

Beyonder does not win.

Originally posted by CatL18

And I think that in interview, Morrison said that QWEWQ is us.

it was implied in the issue itself (all star superman #10) when we see (inside Earth-Q) an artist drawing a superman comic:

http://i.imgur.com/sKk3554.jpg

But anyway, Morrison can tell us whatever he wants, but that doesn't make it true. In fact, here's an issue of Suicide Squad, depicting Grant Morrison on panel (as the writer) and killing him:

http://i.imgur.com/3gXF3HF.jpg

Here's an instance where he controls what happens in the comic through his screen:

http://i.imgur.com/vLDlnqN.jpg?1

....yet, he got killed.........which isn't true so......

Originally posted by operator616
it was implied in the issue itself (all star superman #10) when we see (inside Earth-Q) an artist drawing a superman comic:

http://i.imgur.com/sKk3554.jpg

But anyway, Morrison can tell us whatever he wants, but that doesn't make it true. In fact, here's an issue of Suicide Squad, depicting Grant Morrison on panel (as the writer) and killing him:

http://i.imgur.com/3gXF3HF.jpg

Here's an instance where he controls what happens in the comic through his screen:

http://i.imgur.com/vLDlnqN.jpg?1

....yet, he got killed.........which isn't true so......
Morrison said that We are in in a holographic fractal universe, a self referential loop of story and reality.
So,Morrison in higher reality may controls what happens in the comic, and Morrison in lower reality was killed.

Originally posted by operator616

Well, at least in Scathan's case, the implication was pretty clear to me regarding his power-level.

We see him holding Beyonder + Protege in a hand and being present with LT and friends in the realm of cosmic beings (which encompasses the whole multiverse) outside of all reality. That's quite different from throwing some rocks around. Not to mention that Scathan was introduced less than a year after that FFA issue where it was mentioned the Celestials have trans-infinite power-level. Tom DeFalco being the editor-in-chief for both of those stories (i dunno, perhaps there's some sort of connection).
He wasn't exactly "holding" them, they were just standing there. But aside from that,
Scathan did nothing except for stopping Protege, and that's all we need to gauge his power.

Statements don't hold much weight for me unless there's plausibility behind it.

But again, to address the "rocks being thrown around,"
vs Beyonder/Protege standing in Scathan's hand,
the stories are separated by nearly 30 years friend, which actually substantiates my point prior.
Also,
if I'm not mistaken that staff contained all evil in creation or whatever but that's besides the point.
It's not the LT becoming more powerful,
it's that as time progresses readers adapt and need more, 'boom, bam, slam.'
This same affect can be seen in movies, music, whathaveyou.

But the LT,
has always been the most powerful entity aside from his master, and that's the bottom line here.
We all know this, you know it, so there's no discussion here.
Originally posted by operator616

I didn't get any implications from Nebulos to suggest that he's that powerful. And i can say with full confidence, that if Nebulos (with his power being equivalent of how he originally portrayed to be) resurfaced and went up against current LT, he'd be blinked out of existence.
I disagree. Nebulos' only showings, is Nebulos. Obviously if they would be portrayed now,
then Nebulos (per character make-up) would be more visually fascinating for ya,
since times have changed, and writers create stories on bigger stages with more affects.
Originally posted by operator616

In the What if? issue, Korvac defied LT after he carried out his "ultimate punishment" in the form of a super-nova (Lol).
And after that the LT himself said that he is pretty helpless, so that issue isn't exactly one of LT's shining performances.
Interesting.

His "ultimate judgement" was petty and he used an external source to attack Korvac
instead of his own power directly due to plot. You missed that friend.

If the LT had curbstomped Korvac with a force bolt, like the one he used on THOTI,
then the plot can't run it's course:
(Korvac feeling despair due to universal failure so he UN's the universe)

LT should have never been there imo. It was a dumb conception I'll give ya that.
As for the "lol" at the LT's "ultimate judgement" which was making the local sun go nova:

I rather think the LT was redeemed when we see him use HIS OWN power,
like sealing Korvac's entire universe in an impenetrable barrier no one escapes
basically disconnecting the joint from the mulitiverse.

LT did that as he left, ... so, that means ... with a thought! stoned

See, dumb shit. Silly LT using a freakin puny sun instead of THIS kind of power ey.

Originally posted by CatL18

Morrison said that We are in in a holographic fractal universe, a self referential loop of story and reality.
So,Morrison in higher reality may controls what happens in the comic, and Morrison in lower reality was killed.
Stan Lee bowed to the Beyonder.

I'm not into who wins here, but I wanna have fun so ...
if 4th wall antics are used, then, Beyonder remembers She-Hulk!
... and She-Hulk is the 4th wall master!

So, Beyonder creates (kidnaps/forces) a 4th wall bodyguard: She-Hulk.

------------------------------------------------


She Hulk, she jumps in out of the pages which are the PM,
she can effortlessly tear away any creation on the PM,
she controls the stories that appear on the PM,
and commands how she'll be displayed on the PM.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11930169_SH1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11930170_SH2.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11930171_SH3.jpg

------------------------------------------------


...bah, She-Hulk stomps the guys who put the "pages" into motion!

The "Pages" which are the PM.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11930306_SH4.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11930307_SH5.jpg

(Executive Editor, Defalco, and Editor/Writer and legend, Gruenwald)

--------------------------------------------------------------


Then again, 4th wall queen She-Hulk can just kill TOAA as well:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11930308_SH6.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11930309_SH7.jpg

(John Byrne no less)

--------------------------------------------------------------

Almighty She-Hulk!

Beyonder, easily. This isn't even a contest.

Originally posted by Galan007
Beyonder does not win.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I love PR Beyonder, but I think Primal Monitor and World's Funnest Mxy have the juice to stop him. IMO Beyonder would pwn everyone else though (including GEB, CA Supes, Lucifer, etc.)

Originally posted by CatL18
I think 52 universes has pararell dimensions, divergent time line, microverse,etc.so, It is actually constituted of infinite universe.
And I already explained mandrakk attacked Superman from 4th wall. It is not ordinary attack. But if 4th wall breaking is not accepted, You are right.

Well, all i can say at this point, is go re-read the story; because it was made pretty clear that it was 52. Mandrakk even said "do you feel the blood of 52 universes" indicating that he was feeding on 52 universes.

But yes, there are (many, in fact) realms/dimensions apart from the 52 universes in DC (at the time).

Originally posted by Mr Master
He wasn't exactly "holding" them, they were just standing there. But aside from that,
Scathan did nothing except for stopping Protege, and that's all we need to gauge his power.

Statements don't hold much weight for me unless there's plausibility behind it.

But again, to address the "rocks being thrown around,"
vs Beyonder/Protege standing in Scathan's hand,
the stories are separated by nearly 30 years friend, which actually substantiates my point prior.
Also,
if I'm not mistaken that staff contained all evil in creation or whatever but that's besides the point.
It's not the LT becoming more powerful,
it's that as time progresses readers adapt and need more, 'boom, bam, slam.'
This same affect can be seen in movies, music, whathaveyou.

But the LT,
has always been the most powerful entity aside from his master, and that's the bottom line here.
We all know this, you know it, so there's no discussion here.


Ok, Scathan never did anything aside from stomping Protege, but the implied power was there from the beginning, imo. He was shown as an equal to the LT, Eternity and Hawkgod.........

Yeah, i already agreed with you that Celestials > Cube beings doesn't make sense, i was saying that Scathan's performance is the only one that supports that statement (which helps his case here), though unfortunately, the same thing cannot be said about the other Celestials.

I understand what you're saying but that's part of the point; just because it was an old story, it doesn't mean that we should cut them some slack, we should gauge their power level relative to how cosmic characters are portrayed now. LT was a multiversal power back then, then he became a megaversal+ power, that's a big power gap.

Actually, back then, LT wasn't established to be the 2nd most powerful entity in Marvel (im sure you know this as well).


Originally posted by Mr Master

Interesting.

His "ultimate judgement" was petty and he used an external source to attack Korvac
instead of his own power directly due to plot. You missed that friend.

If the LT had curbstomped Korvac with a force bolt, like the one he used on THOTI,
then the plot can't run it's course:
(Korvac feeling despair due to universal failure so he UN's the universe)

LT should have never been there imo. It was a dumb conception I'll give ya that.
As for the "lol" at the LT's "ultimate judgement" which was making the local sun go nova:

I rather think the LT was redeemed when we see him use HIS OWN power,
like sealing Korvac's entire universe in an impenetrable barrier no one escapes
basically disconnecting the joint from the mulitiverse.

LT did that as he left, ... so, that means ... with a thought! stoned

See, dumb shit. Silly LT using a freakin puny sun instead of THIS kind of power ey.

So you throw LT's unimpressive moments on plot reasons? I mean, how could you expect me to argue if you keep throwing every low showing (same case with the Beyonder) on the plot? .....

Anyway, yes, that feat -- along with him operating on a multiversal scale (even before SW 2) -- was the reason i said he's probably Lucifer level; but it's not equivalent to the entity which exists in all the countless multiverseS simultaneously, and holds 2 megaverses in its hand, imo.

Beyonder at his prime?

So just Beyonder at his best in post retcon?

^^ I think we all just assumed pre-retcon.

Originally posted by operator616

Ok, Scathan never did anything aside from stomping Protege, but the implied power was there from the beginning, imo. He was shown as an equal to the LT, Eternity and Hawkgod..........
Absolutely, I agree. But just sayin Nebulos didn't really have any back ground reference either,
he came out of nowhere like Scathan in a way.

Imo, and I'll leave it at that, it's the time and obscure title it was centered in.
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, i already agreed with you that Celestials > Cube beings doesn't make sense, i was saying that Scathan's performance is the only one that supports that statement (which helps his case here), though unfortunately, the same thing cannot be said about the other Celestials.
Fair enuff.
Originally posted by operator616

I understand what you're saying but that's part of the point; just because it was an old story, it doesn't mean that we should cut them some slack, we should gauge their power level relative to how cosmic characters are portrayed now. LT was a multiversal power back then, then he became a megaversal+ power, that's a big power gap.
I see where you're coming from but I kinda disagree here.
To me, it was Marvel that grew, not the LT. The LT has always been around the same spot.
It's not like Marvel was a megaverse and the LT was multiversal within this megaverse, you feel me?
Then again, he mentioned once something akin to the omniverse in the What If 82'
maybe Gruenwald tried to sneak that in for us. ... meh, just a theoretical maybe.
Originally posted by operator616

Actually, back then, LT wasn't established to be the 2nd most powerful entity in Marvel (im sure you know this as well).
Well, perhaps not literally, but are you referring to something more detailed?
Originally posted by operator616

So you throw LT's unimpressive moments on plot reasons? I mean, how could you expect me to argue if you keep throwing every low showing (same case with the Beyonder) on the plot? .....
Damn opr, LT can separate an entire universe in a crazy barrier (under his own power)
but decides to attack Koravc with the local puny sun?

Korvac ... who the LT knew had already destroyed/absorbed
Celestials, Shaper, other cosmics, you know the rest.

I mean come on friend. That's some serious plot hinderance if I ever saw one.

As for Beyonder, remember opr, Beyonder explained away any low showing that came his way,
besides that we know he was limiting himself.
Imo, this right here even makes his self imposed limitations irrelevant,
because it tells us that he was always in control, he set it all up, it was all his own doing basically:

(this also takes place near the end of SWII#9, which supersedes every statement prior)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17425272_Beyo.jpg
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17425273_Beyo2.jpg

But on a deeper level, it's also one of the more memorable parts from a readers perspective,
how Beyonder contemplates his own self, being "omnipotent" and all.
How omnipotence can be a jarring experience in Shooter's mind. I luv this moment.
Originally posted by operator616

Anyway, yes, that feat -- along with him operating on a multiversal scale (even before SW 2) -- was the reason i said he's probably Lucifer level; but it's not equivalent to the entity which exists in all the countless multiverseS simultaneously, and holds 2 megaverses in its hand, imo.
Well, I can't say you're wrong for saying that cause it's as much an opinion as my stance. We both have our reasons.

So I'll respect the way you see it.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I love PR Beyonder, but I think Primal Monitor and World's Funnest Mxy have the juice to stop him. IMO Beyonder would pwn everyone else though (including GEB, CA Supes, Lucifer, etc.)

/thread

I don't think He succeeds

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
I don't think He succeeds Why not ?

Because Primal Monitor and WF Mxy are undoubtedly at least on PR Beyonder's level, if not higher, and note I LOVE PR Beyonder, but yeah. PM and WF Mxy operate at a similar or higher power level.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
the fact his constant bias is bordering on trolling , why try and refute something that gets overlooking due to insane bias That's your opinion. Having an opinion which diverges from you think is not trolling. And mods don't need you, or anybody, coming in threads and flaming due to conflicts in opinion. If you see a post that you think is a problem then use the report and a mod will decide. Otherwise you are more than welcome to ignore that post and move on. That's just the way it is.

I want to amend my position. WF Mxy utterly stomps here. He didn't just wipe out the DC comics multiverse, he was going into the DCAU and other DC properties. He really got as close to wiping out the omniverse as one could possibly get. Beyonder at his most powerful, even pre-retcon, was only limited to the comics multiverse. PM as well was only limited to the comics multiverse. Therefore, IMO at least, I rank WF Mxy as being above both of them, as well as being the most powerful non-author-avatar character in the history of comics.

Hate-fueled shitstorm in 3....2....

Originally posted by Lestov16
I want to amend my position. WF Mxy utterly stomps here. He didn't just wipe out the DC comics multiverse, he was going into the DCAU and other DC properties. He really got as close to wiping out the omniverse as one could possibly get. Beyonder at his most powerful, even pre-retcon, was only limited to the comics multiverse. PM as well was only limited to the comics multiverse. Therefore, IMO at least, I rank WF Mxy as being above both of them, as well as being the most powerful non-author-avatar character in the history of comics. That is from an else worlds comic which isn't canon to the dcu.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I want to amend my position. WF Mxy utterly stomps here. He didn't just wipe out the DC comics multiverse, he was going into the DCAU and other DC properties. He really got as close to wiping out the omniverse as one could possibly get. Beyonder at his most powerful, even pre-retcon, was only limited to the comics multiverse. PM as well was only limited to the comics multiverse. Therefore, IMO at least, I rank WF Mxy as being above both of them, as well as being the most powerful non-author-avatar character in the history of comics.

Lol, because that myth has never been debunked... In fact, I'm quite positive that a mod-ruling was given on the topic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is from an else worlds comic which isn't canon to the dcu.

That's funny because you know who else isn't canon?

Wait for it....


PRE RETCON BEYONDER!!

Originally posted by Lestov16
That's funny because you know who else isn't canon?

Wait for it....


PRE RETCON BEYONDER!! For the purposes of this thread he is.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why not ?
From my understanding Beyonder was supreme in MU, barring TOAA.

He will still have to contend with beings such as the GEB, presence, primal monitor ect ( Supreme of DC).

And then there is WF Myx that destroyed all of DC's continuity then ventured to the real world.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, because that myth has never been debunked... In fact, I'm quite positive that a mod-ruling was given on the topic.

Are you referring to my post or Quan's? In defense of my post, EW may not be canon, but neither is PR Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
From my understanding Beyonder was supreme in MU, barring TOAA.

He will still have to contend with beings such as the GEB, presence, primal monitor ect ( Supreme of DC).

And then there is WF Myx that destroyed all of DC's continuity then ventured to the real world. Beyonder was far beyond these characters as well as Mxy whose exploits are not canon to the dcu.

GEB and Presence are debatable, but he's definitely about equal to PM, and WF Mxy would curbstomp him. And STFU about what's canon when PR Beyonder is not canon.

Morrison's Hypertime concept makes all DC stories canon.

I, the KING of canon have spoken!

WF is canon. It has been proven by myself and a few others SEVERAL times. A mod-ruling was even given by Bada in favor of its canonicity.

So yeah...

Originally posted by Galan007
WF is canon. It has been proven by myself and a few others SEVERAL times. A mod-ruling was even given by Bada in favor of its canonicity.

So yeah... Yeah but then brokeback opened his butt to oncoming penises:
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Morrison's Hypertime concept makes all DC stories canon.

I, the KING of canon have spoken!

So now who knows if it's canon?

Originally posted by Galan007
WF is canon. It has been proven by myself and a few others SEVERAL times. A mod-ruling was even given by Bada in favor of its canonicity.

So yeah...

Oh yeah

Indisputable win for WF Mxy here

Originally posted by Lestov16
GEB and Presence are debatable, but he's definitely about equal to PM, and WF Mxy would curbstomp him. And STFU about what's canon when PR Beyonder is not canon. How does WF Mxy curbstomp him?

Originally posted by Lestov16
GEB and Presence are debatable, but he's definitely about equal to PM, and WF Mxy would curbstomp him. And STFU about what's canon when PR Beyonder is not canon. no, he wouldn't. It isn't canon. But if we want to play that game far less has beaten Mxy. You can't just pick one else worlds story and ignore the rest.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yeah but then brokeback opened his butt to oncoming penises:


So now who knows if it's canon?

You fear me, boy!

Originally posted by Lestov16
He really got as close to wiping out the omniverse as one could possibly get. If you're talking about all fiction, then lol.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yeah but then brokeback opened his butt to oncoming penises:


So now who knows if it's canon? Funnily enough, Waid(not Morrison) was the first to officially use/depict Hypertime during The Kingdom.

What I'm saying is that LordOfQueers is going to be extra sore this night.

Originally posted by Mindset
If you're talking about all fiction, then lol. He nearly killed you, dood.

Originally posted by Galan007
WF is canon. It has been proven by myself and a few others SEVERAL times. A mod-ruling was even given by Bada in favor of its canonicity.

So yeah...

Good enough for me.

Originally posted by Mindset
How does WF Mxy curbstomp him?

Because Beyonder can't enter, say, Marvel Super Hero Squad, whereas WF Mxy could enter both the DCAU and the even older Super Friends.

Originally posted by Mindset
If you're talking about all fiction, then lol.
I'm....really not. Don't know how you got that interpretation

Originally posted by Galan007
What I'm saying is that I bow to the knowledge of LordOfBrooklyn.



As well you should.

Know your place.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Because Beyonder can't enter, say, Marvel Super Hero Squad, whereas WF Mxy could enter both the DCAU and the even older Super Friends.


I'm....really not. Don't know how you got that interpretation No he couldn't.

You using the term omniverse.

But he did

I'll admit, omniverse is a confusing term.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I want to amend my position. WF Mxy utterly stomps here. He didn't just wipe out the DC comics multiverse, he was going into the DCAU and other DC properties. He really got as close to wiping out the omniverse as one could possibly get. Beyonder at his most powerful, even pre-retcon, was only limited to the comics multiverse. PM as well was only limited to the comics multiverse. Therefore, IMO at least, I rank WF Mxy as being above both of them, as well as being the most powerful non-author-avatar character in the history of comics.


So WF Mxy > Presence / GEB / Primal Monitor?

I mean, how would WF Mxy have a chance that the Presence doesn't?

This should be good.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, because that myth has never been debunked... In fact, I'm quite positive that a mod-ruling was given on the topic. Correct.

Originally posted by Lestov16
But he did

I'll admit, omniverse is a confusing term. Nope.

Mxy can't even beat Annataz.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6412/zj87.gif

Mxy stomps PR Beyonder? Wait what?

Originally posted by Jynocidus
So WF Mxy > Presence / GEB / Primal Monitor?

I mean, how would WF Mxy have a chance that the Presence doesn't?

This should be good.



PM>>Presence>>>Mxy.

Originally posted by Golgo13
PM>>Presence>>>Mxy.

What?!

PM is above "God himself" ???????? It can't be...

I thought Mxy was supposed to be at the top of the food chain. He destroyed...everything, right? "no more anything" is what I believe his words were in the scan

Originally posted by Mindset
Nope.

Mxy can't even beat Annataz.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6412/zj87.gif

Originally posted by Jynocidus
What?!

PM is above "God himself" ???????? It can't be...

I thought Mxy was supposed to be at the top of the food chain. He destroyed...everything, right? "no more anything" is what I believe his words were in the scan

Yep.

tv_happy

PM>>>>>>>>>Presence.

Originally posted by Jynocidus


I mean, how would WF Mxy have a chance that the Presence doesn't?


Can the Presence enter the DCAU? Can PM?

Originally posted by Mindset
Nope.

Mxy can't even beat Annataz.


Where in World's Funnest did Annataz beat him? Or are you illiterate and misunderstanding of what "World's Funnest Mxy"means?

i'd hope so, I mean..."God himself" should be omnipotent

Originally posted by Golgo13
PM>>>>>>>>>Presence. Based on ?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Can the Presence enter the DCAU? Can PM?



Where in World's Funnest did Annataz beat him? Or are you illiterate and misunderstanding of what "World's Funnest Mxy"means?

I would think so.

Originally posted by Lestov16


Where in World's Funnest did Annataz beat him? Or are you illiterate and misunderstanding of what "World's Funnest Mxy"means? Let me break this down for you since you're apparently dense.

If WF Mxy is canon, then the showing of him being beaten by Annataz is applicable to him.

Originally posted by operator616
Well, all i can say at this point, is go re-read the story; because it was made pretty clear that it was 52. Mandrakk even said "do you feel the blood of 52 universes" indicating that he was feeding on 52 universes.

But yes, there are (many, in fact) realms/dimensions apart from the 52 universes in DC (at the time).
I think that 52 universei is indicating 52 multiverse.

52? That's it?

Originally posted by Jynocidus
52? That's it?

Originally posted by Mindset
Let me break this down for you since you're apparently dense.

If WF Mxy is canon, then the showing of him being beaten by Annataz is applicable to him.

So you're going to go with his lowest showings instead of his highest ones. No butthurt there at all

Originally posted by Lestov16
So you're going to go with his lowest showings instead of his highest ones. No butthurt there at all Why would I be butthurt that you're stupid?

You are using his highest feat and ignoring everything else, probably because you only know of his one feat. Go back to the movie vs forum.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is from an else worlds comic which isn't canon to the dcu.

You know KC Mxy basically did the same thing right?

He was chasing Bat-Mite. Mxy got so piss off, he was destroying everything on his past.

He claimed he was so damn tired of all the fighting, all the retcons, so he began to lay waste to the DCU.

Originally posted by Mindset
Let me break this down for you since you're apparently dense.

If WF Mxy is canon, then the showing of him being beaten by Annataz is applicable to him.

Yet, Beyonder, a suppose Omnipotent being got outsmarted by a mortal?

Originally posted by SquallX
Yet, Beyonder, a suppose Omnipotent being got outsmarted by a mortal? He isn't omnipotent.

So...

Originally posted by SquallX

Yet, Beyonder, a suppose Omnipotent being got outsmarted by a mortal?
Good thing he isn't fighting humanoid mortals here.
You have to start around LT level and move your way up. Way up, millionS of times up.

Mortals are too puny.
It's like, would you call a germ landing on you and getting you sick, "outsmarting" you?
After all, that's its purpose, to get you sick, and it got you.
Or is it that the germ is so insignificant and beneath you that you didn't/can't see it coming?

Nah, but put a tiger a distance from you, arm you with an ak, and see what happens,
... you win, easy.

I'm just yappin stoned but in all seriousness that was necessary.
In order for Beyonder to feel "desire" while depowered, hence
having him return the next year to explore this "desire" he felt
in another anticipated great sell like SWI was for Marvel to this day,
although SWII wasn't quite as invigorating but it still left its mark.

Originally posted by Mindset
Why would I be butthurt that you're stupid?

You are using his highest feat and ignoring everything else, probably because you only know of his one feat. Go back to the movie vs forum.

So I'll take it he didn't wipe out Annataz in WF? LOL at your pathetic downplaying.

Originally posted by Lestov16
So I'll take it he didn't wipe out Annataz in WF? LOL at your pathetic downplaying. So I take it you've never actually read the comics he's in.

Stick to dickriding Bauer.

I'll take it you've never read World's Funnest, where he presumably WTFpwns Annataz (and her entire universe), and the 5th dimension itself. If you honestly think Annataz can beat WF Mxy, please make the thread and get humiliated

Annataz did beat Mxy, pick up a comic, bud.

Make the thread then, if you're so sure of your opinion.

WF Mxy vs Annataz.
You can come up with the thread parameters yourself.

Either make the thread, or STFU with your pathetic cowardice.

I'm going back to sleep, but if I don't see the thread when I wake up, or your concession here, your pussification will be confirmed. Godspeed, muchacho.