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Just curious what everyone does for their investments. This likely won't apply to the college-age members, but it's something I started this past year and have been researching more fully recently. From all the literature I've read, it's something you should start as early as possible. Compound interest favors those who start early, so setting aside, say, $2,000 starting at age 20 and not touching it will (likely) make you a millionaire on the strength of the IRA alone by retirement age. Most can't do that at such an age, but it's the ideal. I'm late 20s, so I'm a bit late to the party, but not so late that I should be worried about my future state.

I have a company-match SIMPLE IRA (they match 3%), which is set up as a Roth IRA (i.e. pre-taxed so that I pay no penalties upon withdrawal later in life). It's invested in some growth-oriented mutual funds, and has performed admirably in its first year of existence.

In the interests of diversifying, I've been considering opening a separate IRA account, or possibly a 401(K). The IRA could be another Roth or a Traditional IRA - at my tax level there's no major advantage or disadvantage to either. The returns on 401(K) plans seems to be slightly lower than IRA estimates that I've seen, provided you put in an equivalent amount of money. I'm not entirely sure why this is. The other option is putting more into my existing IRA; yearly limits are in the neighborhood of $5,500, which I'm not in danger of surpassing currently. And there exists an allure of doing some self-managed stuff on a site like eTrade. So long as I'm continuing the more traditional investments, and making sure those come first, setting aside some to play with in a more hands-on environment is appealing to me.

I'll be talking to my CPA about all of this soon - I'm not really looking for investment advice on KMC, just discussing my current situation. Where is everyone else at with this stuff?

I also don't have a go-to website currently for this kind of literature. I found some helpful articles disambiguating IRAs on the "Get Rich Slowly" website: http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/category/investing/ , but I can't vouch for its overall credibility. What websites do you trust for this sort of information?

I don't trust websites that tell me a 2,000$ investment will turn me into a millionaire. Even if it supposedly takes decades.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I don't trust websites that tell me a 2,000$ investment will turn me into a millionaire. Even if it supposedly takes decades.

Well, it's just simple math. If you do this with an IRA and it has returns of about 5% or better (most actually assume about 7% returns as the norm), you'll have a lot of money by the retirement age of 65. It might not be a million, but it will be a lot. You can do the calculations yourself:
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/roth-ira-plan-calculator.aspx
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/traditional-ira-plan-calculator.aspx

The point isn't the million figure, though. It's that earlier investment is favorable, and even if the market as a whole is slow, you'll see a considerable long-term return on your investment.

And to your specific point, no website promises it will make you a million to do this. The point of long-term investing is to minimize risk; but the risk is still present. But they universally recommend this type of investment as early as you can. Do you do something outside of this type of investing? Or was your criticism aimed at websites only, not investing in general?

Originally posted by Digi
Well, it's just simple math. If you do this with an IRA and it has returns of about 5% or better (most actually assume about 7% returns as the norm), you'll have a lot of money by the retirement age of 65. It might not be a million, but it will be a lot. You can do the calculations yourself:
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/roth-ira-plan-calculator.aspx
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/traditional-ira-plan-calculator.aspx

The point isn't the million figure, though. It's that earlier investment is favorable, and even if the market as a whole is slow, you'll see a considerable long-term return on your investment.

And to your specific point, no website promises it will make you a million to do this. The point of long-term investing is to minimize risk; but the risk is still present. But they universally recommend this type of investment as early as you can. Do you do something outside of this type of investing? Or was your criticism aimed at websites only, not investing in general?

I thought it was a one-time 2K investment. The website you linked claims an annual investment of 5K will net you 700K in 36 years. That sounds somewhat more believable.

Nah, I don't do any kind of investing as I have financial independence anyway, but I probably should start to make sure it lasts. I find it quite intimidating though. I don't know how it's different from country to country as I'm from Europe and those websites seem to be from the perspective of the USA/NA.

My criticism was aimed generally at things that sound too good to be true.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I thought it was a one-time 2K investment. The website you linked claims an annual investment of 5K will net you 700K in 36 years. That sounds somewhat more believable.

Nah, I don't do any kind of investing as I have financial independence anyway, but I probably should start to make sure it lasts. I find it quite intimidating though. I don't know how it's different from country to country as I'm from Europe and those websites seem to be from the perspective of the USA/NA.

My criticism was aimed generally at things that sound too good to be true.

Yes, but run that same calculation from age 20 to 65. It doubles to 1.5 million. That's my point. 10 more years, double the amount of 35 years. Compound interest. And even in yours, 180K is becoming 700K. A significant increase, even accounting for inflation.

This isn't necessarily a too-good-to-be-true thing. It takes time. It's a retirement thing. It's not a get rich quick scheme, it's 35 years or more of careful planning. Now, downtrends in the economy can slow the growth. This money isn't guaranteed. But, for example, my IRA operated at about 6% returns this past year, which is fairly consistent with the default value for that tool. If I invest maybe $2,000 a year until I'm 65, it's not outlandish to say I'll turn an investment of roughly 80K into a lot more than that...as much as half a million depending on my luck.

Add that to a 401(K) or another account with a similar investment, and retiring with a million dollars to spend isn't a pipe dream. Or double that if you have a spouse who has similar foresight. I can't afford to set aside 5K every year right now, but I'm getting there. And the returns are potentially substantial, and certainly better than saving on your own or putting it in a bank account. It just takes planning and steady sacrifice. But an alarming number of people don't start this until middle age, or not at all, or don't have the financial freedom and knowledge to do so. And when rich people get richer, this is what they're talking about. They have 30K in IRA and 401K buckets each year, plus individual stock options being traded, that are compounding into millions upon millions by their retirement. It's possible to get there, it's just not as easy for the middle and lower class, since no one has 30K to stash away each year.

No clue about European rules though.

Well then, I will certainly have to investigate if we have such an investment plan over here. I believe I could afford it.

Good luck to you then.

And I don't mean to seem too rosy - it probably seems that way because I had to rebut your initial skepticism. Market fluctuations can and sometimes do affect these things. I tend to look at less ideal scenarios as target goals...say, 5% returns as opposed to 7%, which can add up to 10s of thousands of dollars over the long haul (or hundreds of thousands at higher investing ends). And total market crashes can do even worse, which is why diversification is a common buzzword...don't want all your eggs in one basket. The idea behind mutual funds - the most common type of IRA and 401K investment - is that they're far less volatile than traditional stocks. And they are! But that doesn't mean they're without risk...it's just far less risk than individual stocks come with.

Most investment firms can adapt to these needs though...higher risk growth funds in younger age, and lower risk ones as you near retirement. It's a common strategy, one that major firms are used to handling. You can even tell some to move your money into lower risk investments without your approval when you hit certain monetary goals or age limits.

Again, none of it is a promise. But it's all better than most of the alternatives.

Thank you.

I see. Didn't the 2008 crisis completely destroy some people's retirement funds though? Or am I thinking of something else here?

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Thank you.

I see. Didn't the 2008 crisis completely destroy some people's retirement funds though? Or am I thinking of something else here?

Destroy is probably a bit melodramatic. I know a lot of 401(K) plans got hit pretty hard, but it wasn't a "sky is falling" moment for most. Here's a decent analysis of it:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/401ks-took-big-but-not-devastating-hit-in-2008-2009-10-06

I keep all my money under my mattress. It's safe there.

And moist.

Originally posted by BackFire
I keep all my money under my mattress. It's safe there.

I assume this is in jest, but it's a mentality many have. But stash 2K under a mattress each year for 30 years and you have enough to last you maybe a year or two. Invest it wisely and you can retire in relative comfort. The number of people I encounter who either know nothing about any of this, or are scared of it for irrational reasons, is startling.

There's a reason the rich talk about their investment portfolio. It's not because they're bored and have money to play with, but because they understand what it takes to maintain and grow the wealth. Risk is risk, which turns some off. But I don't want to work until I die.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And moist.

Lol

Originally posted by Digi
I assume this is in jest, but it's a mentality many have. But stash 2K under a mattress each year for 30 years and you have enough to last you maybe a year or two. Invest it wisely and you can retire in relative comfort. The number of people I encounter who either know nothing about any of this, or are scared of it for irrational reasons, is startling.

There's a reason the rich talk about their investment portfolio. It's not because they're bored and have money to play with, but because they understand what it takes to maintain and grow the wealth. Risk is risk, which turns some off. But I don't want to work until I die.

Oh yeah, where I come from, this sort of mentality is still relatively prevalent. Not entirely without reason, however. Many people lost a lot of their money(entire life savings, in some cases) during the 90s to fraudulent banks and investments. Thankfully, laws, insurance, and accountability have improved massively since then, but fear still lingers in the minds of many.

I get the impression that you're talking about some pretty low-risk stuff in this case. It's not like buying a bunch of stocks and then praying that they increase in value.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Oh yeah, where I come from, this sort of mentality is still relatively prevalent. Not entirely without reason, however. Many people lost a lot of their money(entire life savings, in some cases) during the 90s to fraudulent banks and investments. Thankfully, laws, insurance, and accountability have improved massively since then, but fear still lingers in the minds of many.

I get the impression that you're talking about some pretty low-risk stuff in this case. It's not like buying a bunch of stocks and then praying that they increase in value.

Right. Mutual funds are technically stocks, but instead of, say, buying stock in Google and hoping for the best, your money is disseminated amongst dozens of prominent companies. So Google might be one of 50 major companies I own stock in, and the fluctuations of one company, or even one entire industry, aren't as meaningful so long as the majority stay steady or slowly climb.

So, for example, you can buy stock in the S&P 500: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_500 which is literally hundreds of major companies. Or you could have stock in dozens of foreign companies, or historically steady companies, or religious companies. In any scenario, it's far lower risk than individual stocks, but a full market collapse can still hurt it. Even then, if you're diversified, some "markets" can suffer while others stay steady, so your long-term gains are still there; it's only the degree that varies.

Obviously if you're in a country with rampant bank or stock fraud or something, things change. Mattress that sh*t. But otherwise, we're talking about much lower risk.

Originally posted by Digi
Right. Mutual funds are technically stocks, but instead of, say, buying stock in Google and hoping for the best, your money is disseminated amongst dozens of prominent companies. So Google might be one of 50 major companies I own stock in, and the fluctuations of one company, or even one entire industry, aren't as meaningful so long as the majority stay steady or slowly climb.

So, for example, you can buy stock in the S&P 500: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_500 which is literally hundreds of major companies. Or you could have stock in dozens of foreign companies, or historically steady companies, or religious companies. In any scenario, it's far lower risk than individual stocks, but a full market collapse can still hurt it. Even then, if you're diversified, some "markets" can suffer while others stay steady, so your long-term gains are still there; it's only the degree that varies.

Obviously if you're in a country with rampant bank or stock fraud or something, things change. Mattress that sh*t. But otherwise, we're talking about much lower risk.

Ahhh, so basically you give your money to some company to handle and invest it for you? I suppose it's not a bad idea if they're honest and know what they're doing. Would work well for me as I find doing it myself to be too intimidating.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Ahhh, so basically you give your money to some company to handle and invest it for you? I suppose it's not a bad idea if they're honest and know what they're doing. Would work well for me as I find doing it myself to be too intimidating.

The honesty is largely institutional. There are benefits to some companies over others, but when you're handling literally hundreds of thousands of accounts, as most of the large firms are (T. Rowe Price, Hilliard Lyons, Vanguard, Charles Schwaab, etc.), their financial interest is the same as yours, and the potential risk to them for being dishonest is unjustifiably massive. History isn't without exceptions (Enron maybe...though that wasn't investing, really), but the Icarus-like fall they experienced is warning enough for most companies.

As ever, there are no promises. Eliminating risk in investing doesn't exist. But the fear of corporate dishonesty is negligibly low.

Originally posted by Digi
The honesty is largely institutional. There are benefits to some companies over others, but when you're handling literally hundreds of thousands of accounts, as most of the large firms are (T. Rowe Price, Hilliard Lyons, Vanguard, Charles Schwaab, etc.), their financial interest is the same as yours, and the potential risk to them for being dishonest is unjustifiably massive. History isn't without exceptions (Enron maybe...though that wasn't investing, really), but the Icarus-like fall they experienced is warning enough for most companies.

As ever, there are no promises. Eliminating risk in investing doesn't exist. But the fear of corporate dishonesty is negligibly low.

Well, this was a fairly enlightening discussion for a total newbie like me. I suppose I'll try to go slow and steady as that seems to involve the least risk.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Well, this was a fairly enlightening discussion for a total newbie like me. I suppose I'll try to go slow and steady as that seems to involve the least risk.

Sure. A low-risk IRA is a pretty reasonable play (though if you're young, any adviser will tell you to do slightly riskier ones). Aside from total market collapses, worst case scenarios are still way better than, say, a savings account at a bank.

Glad you enjoyed the discussion, though. Cheers!

Wish I knew more about economics and how money works in general.

It's difficult for me to focus on things that aren't inherently interesting for me, but I can recognize the importance of being money-smart.

Hm. Might be worth investing a class or two into.

It's too bad they don't force us to go over this stuff in high school. It's essential in some degree, because such a large part of being wealthy or at least comfortable economically relies on it.

My tax return this year is going to be my initial investment on a Roth IRA, with about $100 a month after that. I'm excited.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's too bad they don't force us to go over this stuff in high school. It's essential in some degree, because such a large part of being wealthy or at least comfortable economically relies on it.

People like to say "I never used the Pythagorean Theorem herp derp. Why not teach us something important?" It's a false substitution, and there's more than one reason why we should absolutely be getting a rounded education (even with stuff most don't end up using). But the other point - that we should be learning some life skills (like basic investing) - is completely true. I probably could have been putting a grand or two a year into an IRA since about age 20-22 (I'm 29 now, for reference, and started with my company-match plan about a year ago). The fact that nobody told me this stuff angers me. And if I hadn't taken the initiative myself, I wouldn't even be doing anything. Just ridiculous.

My gf is 23 though. I'm kinda happy because I get to yell at her about this stuff. I got her to up the % of her paycheck that she puts into her own company-match plan (which is free money and should never be turned down), so I'm paying it forward. She has debt to pay off, so she shouldn't be thinking to expand beyond that like I am. But it's a start.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Wish I knew more about economics and how money works in general.

It's difficult for me to focus on things that aren't inherently interesting for me, but I can recognize the importance of being money-smart.

Hm. Might be worth investing a class or two into.

It's not hard. I talked to the finance guy at my company a couple times, did a weekend's worth of google searches, and had a 5-minute conversation with my CWA last week. I'm not an expert, but I know what I need to. But good luck.

The IRA reminded me of the Irish Republican Army for some reason.

Anyways, Digi, have you ever considered/participated in stock trading?

For anyone looking to do some quick research, this site came recommended to me by both a friend and a Reddit list of best places to learn new skills:
http://www.investopedia.com/

Originally posted by Epicurus
The IRA reminded me of the Irish Republican Army for some reason.

Anyways, Digi, have you ever considered/participated in stock trading?

Technically IRAs and 401Ks are stock trading...they're just usually managed by a firm and involve a lot of comparatively steady mutual funds and not a lot of moves/trades (if any) over a period of years.

But, like, individual stock trading...sure, it would be fun. I'd love to set aside maybe 3-4K and romp around on an online stock trading service (eTrade is the most popular, but hardly the only one). But I'm not quite there financially, and I'm going to be getting my less volatile ducks in a row before trying anything like that. Second, it would require a LOT more research on my part. Realistically, it's only something I'd try if I felt like I at least half-knew what I was doing. If I'm going in blind just to mess around, I might as well bet on sports lines or something. I understand enough basics to get me started in safe stuff, but actual regular trading where I'm in control (not my CWA) is an entirely different ballgame. My brother works for a bank and manages stocks for large companies...I'm hoping to chat with him soon about where I can go for some digestible resources and advice.

Originally posted by Digi
it's only something I'd try if I felt like I at least half-knew what I was doing.

Clearly never going to happen

That Investopedia site is pretty awesome. I got lost in a rabbit hole of articles last night. Many of them were a bit beyond me, but there's a lot that can be absorbed slowly.

Originally posted by Bentley
Clearly never going to happen

Go back to the off-topic comic thread. Toothless insults belong there. This thread is srs bzznss.

uhuh

WEDIj9JBTC8

More generally, that Youtube channel (BigThink) has a lot of decent investing videos (most a lot shorter than this one). Just head to the channel and search for "investing"

http://www.coffeehouseinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/DSC_0333.jpg

A picture that's a condensed version of a lot of financial wisdom concerning investments. It seems overly fond of hyper-diversified index funds and mutual funds compared to many other sources of advice, but that's not the worst side to err on. A side box briefly espouses ETFs, but it seems very opposed to individual stocks. Which, again, isn't bad advice for the casual investor who still wants to make good decisions, but is also a bit restrictive in considering a full range of options.

Less trumpeted investments like life insurance, home ownership, etc. are also ignored, as are direct investments in, say, foreign exchanges or real estate. But that's to be expected from something that is in cheat-sheet format. As a quick advice guide, it's not bad.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I don't trust websites that tell me a 2,000$ investment will turn me into a millionaire. Even if it supposedly takes decades.

Well, you shouldn't trust websites, that's for sure, unless you do your research on them. IRA accounts are always a GREAT idea. Look at it this way. If you're scared of investing into banks or the system. Have you ever lost, misplaced money, had it stolen or spent it on something you regretted? Well, you have, take two thousand dollars and invest it into one of your local banks, at an IRA account. Money is what makes the world goes round. After all what's two thousand dollars when all is said and done? This is of course for the people whom have a savings account.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Well, you shouldn't trust websites, that's for sure, unless you do your research on them. IRA accounts are always a GREAT idea. Look at it this way. If you're scared of investing into banks or the system. Have you ever lost, misplaced money, had it stolen or spent it on something you regretted? Well, you have, take two thousand dollars and invest it into one of your local banks, at an IRA account. Money is what makes the world goes round. After all what's two thousand dollars when all is said and done? This is of course for the people whom have a savings account.

He misunderstood the premise in that post. He's since learned a bit about IRAs. But yeah, IRAs >>> savings accounts, with incredibly rare exceptions.

There seems to be some general consensus among investing advice. In (roughly) this order...

- Pay off credit card debt first (generally the highest interest rates)
- Pay off student loan debt next
- Do those two first, unless your place of work will pay into an IRA or 401K by matching your contribution. That's free money. Do it even while working off debt.
- Have enough on-hand cash for about 6 months of living expenses, in case you lose your job or an emergency happens.
- Start a growth-oriented IRA as soon as the above are done (or perhaps when you're close on them).
- Beyond that, diversify your investments with other stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. that don't have large overlap with your original investments. For example, if your IRA is heavy in pharmaceuticals and biotech, your next investment(s) should avoid those industries.
- Ancillary investments like life insurance, owning a home, even starting a potentially-valuable collection (art, figurines, sports cards, etc.), are all valid ways to acquire wealth and security in other ways.

I've got my eye on a Small Cap mutual fund for my 2nd regular investment outside the company-match one I have going (I'm starting a Roth with my tax return this year, then paying into it regularly in smaller amounts). The goal is to pay into both, get some cash in the bank (currently I have very little) as a rainy day fund, and set aside maybe 2-3K to invest personally in ETFs or individual stocks. Researching this stuff has been surprisingly fun.

...

I heard an interesting take on diversification, and it was against diversifying. Now, the guy was absurdly rich, but he got there by researching a particular industry and focusing on individual stocks. This is a risk/reward thing. The potential returns on "eggs in one basket" approaches are MUCH higher than, say, index or mutual funds. But the risks are much larger as well. Just depends on your tolerance for risk. For the casual investor, though, and one who is probably having someone else manage their funds, low-risk index funds are probably preferable.

And on websites, Investopedia seems very, very thorough. I hadn't found a good site, but that seems to be the standard for 101-style investment learning (and it includes more advanced stuff too, but definitely realizes that most of its viewers are in the dark).

I've been continuing to dig; this stuff is fascinating. I'm actually probably going deeper than I need to. Like, for the money I'm going to have to invest in the next 3-5 years, some of the rabbit holes I'm going down are pretty intense, and deal with stuff that I'm not likely to be involved in ever, let alone in the near future. So, for example, I downloaded software that is basically a platform for foreign exchange (Forex) trading. It lets you set up a dummy account to practice and learn. I may never actually invest money in Forex, but it should prove enlightening.

Still, knowledge is good. And I don't want to hover around the lower middle class/middle class line for the rest of my life, and fear retirement. So it's progress. And my immediate goals are less exotic. Couple IRA accounts, a chunk in the bank that I might invest through my bank in low-risk stuff like CDs or T-bills, and a little bit of side cash to "play" with as I learn this stuff.

I may reload after another couple months of research and make a new thread on investing that's a lot more coherent. As I've stated elsewhere, it helps me to write this stuff down...organizes my thoughts, so to speak. Whether others are interested is almost ancillary (though it's a pleasant bonus, and nice to chat).

I've begun funding my Roth IRA with my tax return, and will be doing monthly payments into it. I also picked out an online brokerage and have been researching stuff like crazy. Today I authorized a 1K transfer to the brokerage, which should be available for purchasing stocks later this week. I'm still dipping my toe in the water, so to speak, and will likely just choose an index fund or broad ETF to start off with, and will put some conservative stop orders on it to protect myself.

Time is literally money in this case, more so than anything else I can imagine. So I'm trying to act fast but responsibly. Within a couple weeks, I'll having two mutual fund accounts with recurring payments into them and will (likely) own stock, and may begin filtering money into that on a monthly basis as well. So I'm excited to keep moving forward.

If anyone is looking for good resources - news websites, advanced charting sites, apps, money and fund calculators, online brokerages (there's more than just eTrade), etc. - I have a lot of good ones bookmarked or researched and would be happy to share. Interest in this thread seems minimal, though, so I may be talking to myself.

Welp. I own stock. It's about 1K worth, so it's not exactly a make-or-break scenario. But it's also well ahead of the schedule I initially set for myself.

I could technically be paying more into my Roth (though it's rolling now with recurring deposits, which is more than I could say a month ago). But the knowledge I've absorbed is fascinating. I want to test it. Thus, stocks. The learning curve for foreign exchange trading was a bit too steep for me, though I considered it as well.

I'm being reasonable. Conservative stop orders so that I can't lose much (10% of my investment at worst), and if I get about a year or two into the experiment, and have funded a few different positions and they're not working out and I don't know why, I'll cut my losses and fund my IRA more fully.

In the meantime, it's exciting.

That emptiness is where your soul used to be.

Quick, fill it with goods!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That emptiness is where your soul used to be.

Quick, fill it with goods!

Lol. They fit in there quite snugly, thanks.

I have coworkers who will hear about this stuff that I'm doing when we're talking finances and they'll say things like "Oh, right, you actually want to retire..." There's some lighthearted sarcasm there, but they f---ing mean it. They aren't retiring in style, or possibly at all. They'll go straight from the workforce to the nursing home. And it's sort of seen as the norm.

That's terrifying to me. My mom is going to have to work until she can't. Some of what made things that way for her were out of her control, so it's not placing blame. But it's also a model I don't want to follow.

We consume so f---ing much. Dozens of different types of media. Or food. It's not all bad, but the volume of it, collectively, is often sickening to me. I cut the majority of the excess in my life and I'm saving maybe 5K a year from where I was 3 years ago. I could probably double that if I were more disciplined. But if I build my wealth, I can - and will - give back as I'm able. Whether it's to my family, or to charitable causes, it will mean something. And I can live and retire how I want instead of being a burden to others. I won't just be a suction on society, living paycheck to paycheck and consuming. That's the goal, at least. Maybe the market will underperform, I'll pick bad stocks, and I'll be in the same place. But it's worth a shot.

And to boot, this sh*t is fun. I got chills clicking the purchase button on my first stock trade. I don't know how people think it's so dry. And it's a form of personal betterment, which can be empowering.

So yeah, call me Gordon f---ing Gecko. At this point I consider it a compliment. My stock is up a fraction of a point in its first day. Break out the damn caviar.

/rant

Retirement is a nebulous term for people who live day to day, and very likely it will be a horrible thing for many in our generation. Already, the baby boomers are realizing the crunch, because they had the spendthrift years in the 80s and didn't save or invest enough.

Also, Google image search for "Greed is good" nets us this beauty:

http://waterman99.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/greed-is-good.jpg

setting up a Roth IRA literally now.

Planning to sell off some of the Disney Stock my dad bought me when I was born to pay for the first installment.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Retirement is a nebulous term for people who live day to day, and very likely it will be a horrible thing for many in our generation. Already, the baby boomers are realizing the crunch, because they had the spendthrift years in the 80s and didn't save or invest enough.

Also, Google image search for "Greed is good" nets us this beauty:

http://waterman99.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/greed-is-good.jpg

That's epic.

But hell, I see it as the reverse almost. I want to provide for and support my (possible) family, children, etc. while living the life I envisioned. I also want to reach a level of comfort that I can do some good in the world instead of just surviving, so to speak. Greed, to me, is wanting the next iPhone the day it comes out, or eating out 5 nights a week...greed ISN'T wanting my current mutual funds and stock holdings to jump 10% in the next month.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
setting up a Roth IRA literally now.

Planning to sell off some of the Disney Stock my dad bought me when I was born to pay for the first installment.

Awesome.



Disney's not a terrible stock, though. Nice growth potential even, which is shocking given their size, because they haven't monetized the Star Wars buyout yet. A shame you have to liquidize it. A Roth is a better long-term option though, for most.

Originally posted by Digi
Awesome.



Disney's not a terrible stock, though. Nice growth potential even, which is shocking given their size, because they haven't monetized the Star Wars buyout yet. A shame you have to liquidize it. A Roth is a better long-term option though, for most.
I have something like 50 shares, so to put down the first $1000 installment I only need to liquidate about a third of the shares.

Good deal. I've considered Disney in my research. There's a variety of reasons I likely won't own part of them in the near-term future, but they're a decent buy according to most analysts.

I just checked their dividend though, which is only about 1%...for a company so large, I thought it would be higher. So I guess the play is for growth. Still not terrible, given their recent success, market share, and bankable franchises.

I've made 5 cents in two days. Which is an infinite percentage amount more than I made with it sitting in my checking account. I'm an investing god.

Originally posted by Digi
I've made 5 cents in two days. Which is an infinite percentage amount more than I made with it sitting in my checking account. I'm an investing god.



That is about the same amount of money over two days, I made on my digital music sales.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is about the same amount of money over two days, I made on my digital music sales.

Nice. With wealth comes responsibility. Don't take it lightly.



Realistically, I'm just going puppy-dog berserk over watching it too much. Even for short holding periods, 2 days is laughably short.

Website Roundup

For those interested in learning more, here's a bunch of great resources and what to use them for:

News and Information Websites

1. Investopedia - http://www.investopedia.com/
This is THE place to go to learn about investing. It will hold your hand through the easy stuff, all the way up through advanced trading techniques, terms, and strategies. It lacks the other sites' volume of daily news, and the charting and research options for stocks on this site are very meager, so eventually you'll "graduate" from the site. But it's also somewhere to return to any time something complicated rears its head (which is often). Investopedia also lets you create a dummy account to invest in the stock market (or Foreign Exchange market, if you're bold). Fake money, real market. Great, great practice.

2. Investing.com - http://www.investing.com/
A nice catch-all site, with a mix of charts, news, advice, and tutorials. The lone drawback I've found is that the articles tend to be very general. Not ideal for research on specific stocks.

3. Motley Fool - http://www.fool.com/
They'll try to sell you their services quite aggressively (they have several paid newsletters that offer detailed research and advice). But if you ignore that, the site itself is very helpful. Their intro to investing series of articles is excellent, and they offer solid advice on a variety of stocks. Very user-friendly, and newbie-friendly, despite the scope of some of their content.

4. Yahoo Finance - http://finance.yahoo.com/
I park at Yahoo for my day-to-day chart analysis of stocks. Lots of charting options in a very intuitive format. They're also a great launch-pad to the other sites, as their news aggregator is as good as any.

5. Seeking Alpha - http://seekingalpha.com/
Worth creating a username for their most up-to-date content (they have a paid version, but it's not necessary). Seeking Alpha is very detail-oriented, and offers great analysis when researching.

6. Forbes - http://www.forbes.com/
I'll admit to not using them that often, but they're a big name in investing literature.

7. Morningstar - http://www.morningstar.com/
Haven't used it, but apparently it's used by industry professionals for research and ideas. My brother's hooking me up with a premium account through his work. No clue what it's like, though.

Charting

1. Fin Viz - http://finviz.com/
It stands for Financial Visualizations. Probably the best site I've seen for pulling every relevant statistic about a stock and allowing you to view it all at once. There's a lot of professional-level information available here, and you can also search stocks based on any criteria imaginable.

2. Yahoo Finance
Detailed above, this is a good go-to as well.

Advice

1. Youtube Clip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEDIj9JBTC8
A 40-minute crash course in investing basics.

2. Cheatsheet - http://www.coffeehouseinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/DSC_0333.jpg
A hand-drawn cheat sheet of common investing advice.

3. Peter Schiff - http://www.schiffradio.com/site
This was recommended to me by a friend. Schiff wears his politics on his sleeve and backs some unconventional means to wealth (primarily, foreign markets and gold as opposed to stocks). I haven't poked around the site a whole lot, but it may be worth checking out for a contrarian point-of-view.

4. Zero Hedge - http://www.zerohedge.com/
This site veers a bit toward the conspiratorial and dystopian, but there are also some reasonable investing warning signals that the site isn't afraid to call people out on. My brother, who does investing work for a living, pointed me here. It's not his favorite or primary site, but as with the Schiff point I made earlier, he uses it to see the other side of arguments on occasion.

Calculators

1. Investopedia Calculator page - http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/

2. IRA Calculators -
Roth: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/roth-ira-plan-calculator.aspx
Traditional: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/traditional-ira-plan-calculator.aspx

3. Bond Calculator - http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/bondprice.aspx

Apps

1. Investing.com has probably the most used app, and it's easy to use and fairly comprehensive. Many others are a pale reflection of the sites they try to emulate (Yahoo Finance's app, for example, is disappointing). But this one has a lot to offer. I've tried a few others, and while some are decent, I can't recommend any others.

Online Brokerages

http://online-stock-trading-review.toptenreviews.com/

That's a review site that has 16 different reputable online brokerages. You can click on any of them individually for details. There's a lot to consider, but it breaks everything down for you, so you can make the best choice for you.

I went with OptionsHouse. The OptionsHouse research and charting capabilities are lackluster, but I use other sites for all of that, so I wasn't looking for them in a brokerage. OptionsHouse has cheap transaction fees, which was the most important thing to me, and no inactivity fees or minimum balance once you're funded (though you have to start with 1K or more).

Notes

It's advantageous to have an account on some sites (Motley Fool, Seeking Alpha, Investopedia, maybe Yahoo if you build a portfolio to monitor). But don't sign up for the newsletters, or opt out. I haven't had any trouble unsubscribing to any so far, but they can be a bit annoying.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is about the same amount of money over two days, I made on my digital music sales.

I'm up about 8% over about two months. The gains won't necessarily hold or maintain their same course, but it's encouraging. Even at half that rate, it works out to 24% yearly, which is awesome.

Nevermind that 8% works out to about $100 currently. I'm not yet dealing with significant investments. But it's all valuable practice while gaining more than it would be in a savings or checking account.

Anyone else doing anything? Or am I talking to myself?

Originally posted by Digi
Lol. They fit in there quite snugly, thanks.

I have coworkers who will hear about this stuff that I'm doing when we're talking finances and they'll say things like "Oh, right, you actually want to retire..." There's some lighthearted sarcasm there, but they f---ing mean it. They aren't retiring in style, or possibly at all. They'll go straight from the workforce to the nursing home. And it's sort of seen as the norm.

That's terrifying to me. My mom is going to have to work until she can't. Some of what made things that way for her were out of her control, so it's not placing blame. But it's also a model I don't want to follow.

We consume so f---ing much. Dozens of different types of media. Or food. It's not all bad, but the volume of it, collectively, is often sickening to me. I cut the majority of the excess in my life and I'm saving maybe 5K a year from where I was 3 years ago. I could probably double that if I were more disciplined. But if I build my wealth, I can - and will - give back as I'm able. Whether it's to my family, or to charitable causes, it will mean something. And I can live and retire how I want instead of being a burden to others. I won't just be a suction on society, living paycheck to paycheck and consuming. That's the goal, at least. Maybe the market will underperform, I'll pick bad stocks, and I'll be in the same place. But it's worth a shot.

And to boot, this sh*t is fun. I got chills clicking the purchase button on my first stock trade. I don't know how people think it's so dry. And it's a form of personal betterment, which can be empowering.

So yeah, call me Gordon f---ing Gecko. At this point I consider it a compliment. My stock is up a fraction of a point in its first day. Break out the damn caviar.

/rant
Originally posted by Digi
Website Roundup

For those interested in learning more, here's a bunch of great resources and what to use them for:

News and Information Websites

1. Investopedia - http://www.investopedia.com/
This is THE place to go to learn about investing. It will hold your hand through the easy stuff, all the way up through advanced trading techniques, terms, and strategies. It lacks the other sites' volume of daily news, and the charting and research options for stocks on this site are very meager, so eventually you'll "graduate" from the site. But it's also somewhere to return to any time something complicated rears its head (which is often). Investopedia also lets you create a dummy account to invest in the stock market (or Foreign Exchange market, if you're bold). Fake money, real market. Great, great practice.

2. Investing.com - http://www.investing.com/
A nice catch-all site, with a mix of charts, news, advice, and tutorials. The lone drawback I've found is that the articles tend to be very general. Not ideal for research on specific stocks.

3. Motley Fool - http://www.fool.com/
They'll try to sell you their services quite aggressively (they have several paid newsletters that offer detailed research and advice). But if you ignore that, the site itself is very helpful. Their intro to investing series of articles is excellent, and they offer solid advice on a variety of stocks. Very user-friendly, and newbie-friendly, despite the scope of some of their content.

4. Yahoo Finance - http://finance.yahoo.com/
I park at Yahoo for my day-to-day chart analysis of stocks. Lots of charting options in a very intuitive format. They're also a great launch-pad to the other sites, as their news aggregator is as good as any.

5. Seeking Alpha - http://seekingalpha.com/
Worth creating a username for their most up-to-date content (they have a paid version, but it's not necessary). Seeking Alpha is very detail-oriented, and offers great analysis when researching.

6. Forbes - http://www.forbes.com/
I'll admit to not using them that often, but they're a big name in investing literature.

7. Morningstar - http://www.morningstar.com/
Haven't used it, but apparently it's used by industry professionals for research and ideas. My brother's hooking me up with a premium account through his work. No clue what it's like, though.

Charting

1. Fin Viz - http://finviz.com/
It stands for Financial Visualizations. Probably the best site I've seen for pulling every relevant statistic about a stock and allowing you to view it all at once. There's a lot of professional-level information available here, and you can also search stocks based on any criteria imaginable.

2. Yahoo Finance
Detailed above, this is a good go-to as well.

Advice

1. Youtube Clip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEDIj9JBTC8
A 40-minute crash course in investing basics.

2. Cheatsheet - http://www.coffeehouseinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/DSC_0333.jpg
A hand-drawn cheat sheet of common investing advice.

3. Peter Schiff - http://www.schiffradio.com/site
This was recommended to me by a friend. Schiff wears his politics on his sleeve and backs some unconventional means to wealth (primarily, foreign markets and gold as opposed to stocks). I haven't poked around the site a whole lot, but it may be worth checking out for a contrarian point-of-view.

4. Zero Hedge - http://www.zerohedge.com/
This site veers a bit toward the conspiratorial and dystopian, but there are also some reasonable investing warning signals that the site isn't afraid to call people out on. My brother, who does investing work for a living, pointed me here. It's not his favorite or primary site, but as with the Schiff point I made earlier, he uses it to see the other side of arguments on occasion.

Calculators

1. Investopedia Calculator page - http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/

2. IRA Calculators -
Roth: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/roth-ira-plan-calculator.aspx
Traditional: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/traditional-ira-plan-calculator.aspx

3. Bond Calculator - http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/bondprice.aspx

Apps

1. Investing.com has probably the most used app, and it's easy to use and fairly comprehensive. Many others are a pale reflection of the sites they try to emulate (Yahoo Finance's app, for example, is disappointing). But this one has a lot to offer. I've tried a few others, and while some are decent, I can't recommend any others.

Online Brokerages

http://online-stock-trading-review.toptenreviews.com/

That's a review site that has 16 different reputable online brokerages. You can click on any of them individually for details. There's a lot to consider, but it breaks everything down for you, so you can make the best choice for you.

I went with OptionsHouse. The OptionsHouse research and charting capabilities are lackluster, but I use other sites for all of that, so I wasn't looking for them in a brokerage. OptionsHouse has cheap transaction fees, which was the most important thing to me, and no inactivity fees or minimum balance once you're funded (though you have to start with 1K or more).

Notes

It's advantageous to have an account on some sites (Motley Fool, Seeking Alpha, Investopedia, maybe Yahoo if you build a portfolio to monitor). But don't sign up for the newsletters, or opt out. I haven't had any trouble unsubscribing to any so far, but they can be a bit annoying. You gonna do fine.

Originally posted by Mindship
You gonna do fine.

Thanks. I appreciate the sentiment, though even with the seeming preparedness, it's probably not the guarantee you might think. I have to keep a steady job, keep my spending down so I have capital to invest, I want to get a graduate degree in the next few years and will need a new car soon, and life doesn't get any cheaper as you age even if you manage to avoid unforeseen massive costs. It's a climb.

I'm up 6.5% on my stocks in about 2 months, and have been as much as 8% up. That sounds way less impressive when I tell you I'm only playing with about $1500 right now, but the percentage is encouraging. I need to be able to set aside ~3-5K each year - a challenge - and have quality returns for about a decade before I start to feel good. This is ignoring my Roth and 401K, since I'm paying less into them and don't have direct control. They'll do what they'll do. But climb might not even be the right word. Unless you come from wealth, it's a grind.

And as others have said, this is with self-awareness of the situation. Sooo many people from my generation are going to be in the cold come retirement age.

Side note: if you can invest personally, do it. Professionally managed IRA have the benefit of not having to actively worry or manage them, but there are fees involved in that. Which means the returns have to be greater to achieve the same result. My Roth is actually down currently (though in fairness, I just started it), because I started about 2% in the hole from fees. The comparatively tame transaction fees for online brokerages ($4.75-$9.99 depending on your site) are much more manageable, provided you're not investing with pocket change.

I used to read this blog a lot, it's pretty good. http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/

Originally posted by Bardock42
I used to read this blog a lot, it's pretty good. http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/



That was the first website I found when I was doing Google searches. I haven't been on it much, but yeah, it seems good. It's cool that it has alternative advice like "How to buy a mattress" instead of just stock stuff. It is basic-level at best for strictly wall street stuff, but is a good all-around site for living more frugally.

Originally posted by Digi
But the other point - that we should be learning some life skills (like basic investing) - is completely true. I probably could have been putting a grand or two a year into an IRA since about age 20-22 (I'm 29 now, for reference, and started with my company-match plan about a year ago). The fact that nobody told me this stuff angers me. And if I hadn't taken the initiative myself, I wouldn't even be doing anything. Just ridiculous.

That means you are currently between 1000 (1000$ for 7 years at 3%) - 5000$ (2000$ for 9 years at 6%) behind (probably the lower end cause of the crisis really)?

Obviously it's the last years that matter most there, perhaps you can try to make up this difference with more excessive saving in order to alleviate your bad feelings about the possibility that you could have started earlier (at the cost of comfort, right now).

Originally posted by Digi


That was the first website I found when I was doing Google searches. I haven't been on it much, but yeah, it seems good. It's cool that it has alternative advice like "How to buy a mattress" instead of just stock stuff. It is basic-level at best for strictly wall street stuff, but is a good all-around site for living more frugally.

Yeah, I enjoyed reading their ideas, they also had a great article about reading self-help advice not being the same as actually helping yourself, even though it feels the same to your brain. But I can't find it, has been many years though.

I don't really actively invest. I have a savings account where some of the money is invested in fonds. And I have a mortgage.

I suppose I am an entrepreneur now, so I do invest in my own businesses. I am pretty lucky that my parents are well off and I will likely come into some good money and a functioning company at some point (hopefully the inheritance in the far future, perhaps taking over the company sooner)

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, I enjoyed reading their ideas, they also had a great article about reading self-help advice not being the same as actually helping yourself, even though it feels the same to your brain. But I can't find it, has been many years though.

I don't really actively invest. I have a savings account where some of the money is invested in fonds. And I have a mortgage.

I suppose I am an entrepreneur now, so I do invest in my own businesses. I am pretty lucky that my parents are well off and I will likely come into some good money and a functioning company at some point (hopefully the inheritance in the far future, perhaps taking over the company sooner)

Well, a mortgage is investing. It's just a commodity instead of an equity. I know a guy that makes more buying and selling Magic: The Gathering cards than he does in his "real" job. It's all investing; just varying levels of legitimacy. Same with owning a business. It's equity just like stock, just far less abstract.

Savings accounts are fine if that's not all you're doing. You're at least somewhat diversified, plus you have the business, so that's good. But plenty of people stockpile a savings account as though it alone will take care of them. Even Money Market accounts and such don't keep up with inflation, much less growth.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That means you are currently between 1000 (1000$ for 7 years at 3%) - 5000$ (2000$ for 9 years at 6%) behind (probably the lower end cause of the crisis really)?

Obviously it's the last years that matter most there, perhaps you can try to make up this difference with more excessive saving in order to alleviate your bad feelings about the possibility that you could have started earlier (at the cost of comfort, right now).

Good point about the crisis. 2008 was brutal.

And yeah, that's the plan. I don't live beyond my means, and I try to search for ways to limit spending (with varying levels of success). I stopped buying comics about two years ago, for example. That was a $10-30 sink each week. It's still not ideal...if you live in a city with a lower middle class income, there's only so much you'll realistically be able to save. But in about three years I've worked off ~12K in debt and have maybe 4-5K invested in my various funds. So it's progress.

I actually read a couple money-saver links on the "Get Rich Slowly" after you just posted it. Didn't take long to come across a couple decent ideas I may try. Little by little...

Anyway, thanks for the link, and gl with your business. What type of business is it?

Originally posted by Digi
Thanks. I appreciate the sentiment, though even with the seeming preparedness, it's probably not the guarantee you might think. I have to keep a steady job, keep my spending down so I have capital to invest, I want to get a graduate degree in the next few years and will need a new car soon, and life doesn't get any cheaper as you age even if you manage to avoid unforeseen massive costs. It's a climb.Wait'll marriage and kids.

If I may paraphrase: "Man plans; Life laughs." Odds are, it won't be easy, but you're thinking about this and planning ahead now, which is very forsightful. Sure, they'll be tough times ahead, setbacks, mistakes, perhaps moments of despair. But you seem like you'll stay the course, no matter what. That's the most important thing: the Commitment.

I was more of a dreamer at your age (hell, still dreamin'). "'Retirement? Pfft. That's so far away." I didn't start saving til my early 30s. Fortunately, my profession's benefits saved my ass.

Originally posted by Digi
And as others have said, this is with self-awareness of the situation. Sooo many people from my generation are going to be in the cold come retirement age. Rest assured, yours didn't invent unpreparedness. I think what does make it tougher for your generation is the apparent dwindling of reliable job institutions (eg, 30+ years at a company ---> pension). As a group, "Millennials" have to be more self-reliant, more self-promotional than my peeps did, imo.

Originally posted by Mindship
If I may paraphrase: "Man plans; Life laughs."

I dunno. I mean, yes, some things are unforeseen and can't be planned for exactly. Many things, in fact. So there's a lot of truth to it. But this is used a lot as sort of a psychological excuse. Good plans that account for variance tend to work, and the people who I hear invoking similar phrases to this are usually the least intrinsically motivated people I know.

Then again, my internal locus of control is stronger than nearly anyone I know. So I have an instinctual aversion to phrases like this that may not be entirely rationally founded.

Originally posted by Mindship
Rest assured, yours didn't invent unpreparedness. I think what does make it tougher for your generation is the apparent dwindling of reliable job institutions (eg, 30+ years at a company ---> pension). As a group, "Millennials" have to be more self-reliant, more self-promotional than my peeps did, imo.

Most likely, yeah. Student debt is probably the biggest thing hitting this generation that other generations haven't had. When I hear people saying things like "Pfft! You only have 30K in student loans?! You're lucky," you know things have gone a bit south.

I'll have to look over some of the info you provided earlier, as my uncle recently has been trying to talk to me about this sort of stuff. I only recently turned 22 and I really barely heard about anything outside of films. With the exception of my mom simply telling me what to write on forms.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I'll have to look over some of the info you provided earlier, as my uncle recently has been trying to talk to me about this sort of stuff. I only recently turned 22 and I really barely heard about anything outside of films. With the exception of my mom simply telling me what to write on forms.



Start with Investopedia, Motley Fool's intro to investing series, and maybe Get Rich Slowly (links below). Those are the best entry points for basic knowledge. You don't have to dive into stock markets and such. A basic understanding of the various types of IRAs, the difference between stocks and bonds, etc. is a good first step. Many people never graduate beyond a work 401K and/or Roth IRA. And if you're doing enough to fund them, that can be enough.

http://www.investopedia.com/
http://www.fool.com/how-to-invest/thirteen-steps/index.aspx
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/

Originally posted by Digi
What type of business is it?

I'm involved in a couple, the newest one is a web site where we enable the rental of concrete trucks.

A no-name OTC (over the counter, meaning not on a major index) microcap stock that I own is going to be traded on the NASDAQ starting next week. It's already up 20% today as a result of the announcement.

Granted, it had slid about 16% since I purchased it originally, so right now I'm only slightly higher than I was than when I purchased it. But it should continue to skyrocket once it's on the NASDAQ. I'm excited. Again, the excitement is as much from percentages as it is from actual dollar amounts at this point. But like, if this stock makes me $1,000, that would be epic.

Originally posted by Digi
A no-name OTC (over the counter, meaning not on a major index) microcap stock that I own is going to be traded on the NASDAQ starting next week. It's already up 20% today as a result of the announcement.

Granted, it had slid about 16% since I purchased it originally, so right now I'm only slightly higher than I was than when I purchased it. But it should continue to skyrocket once it's on the NASDAQ. I'm excited. Again, the excitement is as much from percentages as it is from actual dollar amounts at this point. But like, if this stock makes me $1,000, that would be epic. Careful. You'll start watching Fox News Business Block soon. Go, Brenda!

Originally posted by Mindship
Careful. You'll start watching Fox News Business Block soon. Go, Brenda!

That would require watching TV. By the time they're talking about it, it's old news. I'm looking for the stocks that they'll be talking about next week. I actually have a couple writers I like to follow. At this stage, I'm not trying to pick blue chip stocks that make me 3-5% a year and protect my wealth. I'm trying to hit home run balls with microcap stocks that could double (or more) within months. If they're discussing it on TV, it's either too well known, or it's already made a major move and it's no longer worth getting into.

Originally posted by Digi
That would require watching TV. By the time they're talking about it, it's old news. I'm looking for the stocks that they'll be talking about next week. I actually have a couple writers I like to follow. At this stage, I'm not trying to pick blue chip stocks that make me 3-5% a year and protect my wealth. I'm trying to hit home run balls with microcap stocks that could double (or more) within months. If they're discussing it on TV, it's either too well known, or it's already made a major move and it's no longer worth getting into. Mostly true. They also like to "predict" what stocks are the ones to buy. Personally, from watching these shows for years now (yes, I watch them, though mainly cuz I have a friend who used to show up now and then as a guest), I've come to the conclusion that, for the Big Picture, there are no experts.

Originally posted by Mindship
Mostly true. They also like to "predict" what stocks are the ones to buy. Personally, from watching these shows for years now (yes, I watch them, though mainly cuz I have a friend who used to show up now and then as a guest), I've come to the conclusion that, for the Big Picture, there are no experts.

This is most likely true. But at least it's good that almost no one really cares about "the Big Picture" with their investments. It's very possible to know what you're talking about and have a good overall track record in smaller subsets of the market.