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Classic Dr. Fate (Inza + Kent)

vs

Marvel's Odin

It's kind of one of those weird things where it depends on the title the character is running in. Odin wins by and large by virtue of consistent showings and good ones at that.

That said when operating as a lord of order the powers of Dr. Fate are more plot device rather than power set. For instance the lords of order in Day of Vengeance I'd give the nod over Odin. Spectre was an absolute monster in that run and Marvel, Shazam, Nabu and Fate all impressed me. However call Dr. Fate from a collab/team comic and he gets wrecked 8-9/10

Odin wins.

Originally posted by Uriel005
It's kind of one of those weird things where it depends on the title the character is running in. Odin wins by and large by virtue of consistent showings and good ones at that.

That said when operating as a lord of order the powers of Dr. Fate are more plot device rather than power set. For instance the lords of order in Day of Vengeance I'd give the nod over Odin. Spectre was an absolute monster in that run and Marvel, Shazam, Nabu and Fate all impressed me. However call Dr. Fate from a collab/team comic and he gets wrecked 8-9/10

This makes no sense. The majority of Classic Fate's showings were above the level of even Nabu in DoV. Combine that with the OP stating this is Kent + Inza ( an amped version of Classic Fate only seen in one issue) and the version of Fate being discussed is way above Lord's of Order/Chaos from DoV.

In the one and only tale where Kent merged with Inza to enhance his power so that he could defeat the Lord of Order Ynar who was aligned with the Lord of Chaos Vandeamon they two lords of power had warped all reality to be what they wanted it to be. planets ceased to exist as did all life on earth. Only Kent, Inza and their tower were immune to the reality warping because reality warping doesn't affect them. By merging Dr Fate had the power of the Lords of Order, and Chaos as well as the spirit of man (both yin and yang). Once he defeated them and cast them out warping reality back to normal was a pretty casual effort for him.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFate-forcesbeyonghumanunderstanding.jpg.html?sort=3&o=47
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFatefightstheunkown-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=58
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFate-fightstheunknown2-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=59
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFate-0315-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=66
Those are before he merged with Inza (there was more but basically he could only stalemate the beings who "warped the cosmos".

Here is after.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/KentandInzamerge.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/KentandInzamerged2.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/KentandinzaMerged3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/KentandInzamerged4.jpg.html

That's it, that is the entirety of the showings of the merged Kent and Inza version of Dr Fate. While impressive I don't see how so few showings can be stacked against Odin's greater number of Feats.

Now while this is the only universal reality warping feat Fate ever achieved it's hard to measure his power levels from the issue against Odin on anything other than the reality. The reason is simply this was the only appearances of Ynar and Vandeamon so the universal level of reality warping is the only thing we have to measure their power by.

As for the "powerset" of Classic fate

powers of the body of Kent Nelson without any magical talismans
These power all stem from alterations Nabu to to Kent on a molecular level
Super strength ( class 100++ easily carries air liners with no strain)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/AAanohelmetFatestrength.jpg.html?sort=3&o=14

Invulnerability ( physically impervious only weakness is a need to breath, immune to all disease and unaffected by magic or reality warping)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/HalfHelmetfateendurance.jpg.html?sort=3&o=13
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/HalfHelmetFateendurance2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=17
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/halfhelmetDrFteendurance3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=15


teachings of Nabu to Kent
As it's told in Kent's origin Nabu taught him long lost secrets that man "would call magic". these included

molecular control - Kent could control his body on a molecualr level. he could draw energy from anything and use it to his will or even from his own atoms. He could matter manipulate
Flight/levitation - can levitate himself and other objects.
TP mild clairvoyance.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/All-StarSquadron47-Page9.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/KentNelsonwastaughtageoldsecrets.jpg.html?sort=3&o=87

With his artifacts of power he could blast with the energy within his body or move planets at will. Dimensionally manipulate, bend space and time to his will, call on the power of gods, and magic to high order. Traverse the barriers to anywhere (including the after life)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/TimespaceanddimensionholdnobarriertoDrFate.jpg.html?sort=3&o=24
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/fatemovesaplanet-3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=98
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFategoeswherehewants1-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=61
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/Drfategoeswherehewants2-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=62

Hmmm, kinda surprised this one dies so quick with so little discussion.

Lack of knowledge

Members are not going to approach this topic, because few are aware of just how powerful Classic Fate was, much less gauge Kent + Inza Fate.

I had always thought Classic Fate was a rival to Wildstorm Doctor(s) or Classic Strange. I think Silver Age Fate is superior. At the top of the Transcendent Class, if not outright Skyfater under the right circumstances.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lack of knowledge

Speak for yourself, beautiful.

Odin force shit stomps

Originally posted by "Id"
Members are not going to approach this topic, because few are aware of just how powerful Classic Fate was, much less gauge Kent + Inza Fate.

I had always thought Classic Fate was a rival to Wildstorm Doctor(s) or Classic Strange. I think Silver Age Fate is superior. At the top of the Transcendent Class, if not outright Skyfater under the right circumstances. higher actually if you consider what the Lords of Order and Chaos were supposed to be case and point being Mordru/Shazam and Fate is among their peers.

Originally posted by Supra
Odin force shit stomps

Originally posted by quanchi112


LIES!

I'd give LOSH Mordru even odds against Odin. This version of Dr. Fate beats Odin every time.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
LIES!

I'd give LOSH Mordru even odds against Odin. This version of Dr. Fate beats Odin every time. Based on ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ?

Canon.

I made the thread with Odin vs Mordru.

Dr. Fate embodies ALL of the power of the Lords of Order and Chaos.

What has Odin done to show he can handle power on that level?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Canon.

I made the thread with Odin vs Mordru.

Dr. Fate embodies ALL of the power of the Lords of Order and Chaos.

What has Odin done to show he can handle power on that level? You haven't established what kind of power that amasses. You just used titles and acted like that is evidence. It isn't.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Dr. Fate embodies ALL of the power of the Lords of Order and Chaos.

What?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What?

Inza+ Kent per the appearance equals

Lords of Order + Lords of Chaos.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You haven't established what kind of power that amasses. You just used titles and acted like that is evidence. It isn't.

If you don't know about The Lords of Order and The Lords of Chaos, then you are unqualified to comment.

I'll make it simple.

Dr Fate + Mordru= Dead Odin

The One eye is facing more than that in this incarnation of Fate.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Inza+ Kent per the appearance equals

Lords of Order + Lords of Chaos. How is saying this proving anything ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
How is saying this proving anything ?



If you've read the comics it says it all.

I just give you the 2 most well known Lords of Order and Chaos to indicate the power level.

Do I need to read the comics to you page by page?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
If you've read the comics it says it all.

I just give you the 2 most well known Lords of Order and Chaos to indicate the power level.

Do I need to read the comics to you page by page? You said they have the power of all lords of chaos and order. Being the most well known has absolutely nothing to do with power. Do you know what evidence is ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You said they have the power of all lords of chaos and order. Being the most well known has absolutely nothing to do with power. Do you know what evidence is ?

NO.

Kent + Inza HAVE the power of BOTH the Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos.

NOT, Dr. Fate or Mordru individually. The fact that I actually have to point this out to you is somewhat disturbing.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
NO.

Kent + Inza HAVE the power of BOTH the Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos.

NOT, Dr. Fate or Mordru individually. The fact that I actually have to point this out to you is somewhat disturbing. The fact you don't understand that one of each isn't all of them is somewhat laughable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The fact you don't understand that one of each isn't all of them is somewhat laughable.





You really are a fool.

There is only one instance of the Dr. Fate being used here. Despite that blatant fact you keep asking for evidence of the power of the 2 cosmic forces that were combined there.

I clearly stated I gave you the most powerful examples of both groups. To anyone not named Quan, they could see that LORDS indicate there is more than one on each side.

You are often unarmed in most battles of wit you engage in.

The failure continues!

Originally posted by quanchi112
The fact you don't understand that one of each isn't all of them is somewhat laughable.



What LoB is saying, is that Classic Fate (with Inza), can invoke the powers from the Lords of Order and Chaos.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You haven't established what kind of power that amasses. You just used titles and acted like that is evidence. It isn't.

Lord Brooklyn May not have but I did. In the scans I posted on this thread we see classic Fate in his one and only appearance where he merged with Inza casually defeat two such lords ( one of each, a Lord of Order and a Lord of chaos) who together could casually reality warp the entire cosmos ( scans of that were also provided).

Other feats for lords of order and chaos "pre COIE" ( which is where Classic Fate is from)

Mordru soloed the combined forces of the SA JLA/ LOSH/ and JSA. That is a team that includes two SA Supermen, SA Superboy, SA Mon-el, two green lanterns, 2 Wonder Women ( the E2 one was vastly more powerful than E1 and actually able to move a planet), Dr Fate ( unmerged), and countless others.

Dr Fate himself had fought and defeated several sky fathers ( admittedly slightly below Odin) like Totec ( who could also warp reality and changed the earth to be in his own image.

In All Star squadron ( issue 27 I iRC) Fate also fought a blood lusted amped Spectre ( under the control of Kulak courtesy of the ring of life. Kulak was powerful enough to influence every mind on earth from another dimension and cause mother to kill child brother to brother etc) for about 7 pages. Spectre only one through BFR. This is one of a few times they faced each other.

Defeating Totec, undoing his reality warp and "healing" Earth was pretty beast.

Thats another example of him operating above the status quo (trancendent class), without outside influence.

There is one image that personifies 60's Silver Age where Mordru is hurling stars and planets like nerf balls.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You really are a fool.

There is only one instance of the Dr. Fate being used here. Despite that blatant fact you keep asking for evidence of the power of the 2 cosmic forces that were combined there.

I clearly stated I gave you the most powerful examples of both groups. To anyone not named Quan, they could see that LORDS indicate there is more than one on each side.

You are often unarmed in most battles of wit you engage in.

The failure continues! You used the word all which implies plural not one of each.

Originally posted by "Id"
What LoB is saying, is that Classic Fate (with Inza), can invoke the powers from the Lords of Order and Chaos. That doesn't make him equal to. Strange can invoke other powers but that doesn't make him those beings either.

Originally posted by beatboks
Lord Brooklyn May not have but I did. In the scans I posted on this thread we see classic Fate in his one and only appearance where he merged with Inza casually defeat two such lords ( one of each, a Lord of Order and a Lord of chaos) who together could casually reality warp the entire cosmos ( scans of that were also provided).

Other feats for lords of order and chaos "pre COIE" ( which is where Classic Fate is from)

Mordru soloed the combined forces of the SA JLA/ LOSH/ and JSA. That is a team that includes two SA Supermen, SA Superboy, SA Mon-el, two green lanterns, 2 Wonder Women ( the E2 one was vastly more powerful than E1 and actually able to move a planet), Dr Fate ( unmerged), and countless others.

Dr Fate himself had fought and defeated several sky fathers ( admittedly slightly below Odin) like Totec ( who could also warp reality and changed the earth to be in his own image.

In All Star squadron ( issue 27 I iRC) Fate also fought a blood lusted amped Spectre ( under the control of Kulak courtesy of the ring of life. Kulak was powerful enough to influence every mind on earth from another dimension and cause mother to kill child brother to brother etc) for about 7 pages. Spectre only one through BFR. This is one of a few times they faced each other. So defeating a few doesn't mean his power equals all. Just more formidable.


Thats child's play to Odin IMO.

Originally posted by "Id"
Defeating Totec, undoing his reality warp and "healing" Earth was pretty beast.

Thats another example of him operating above the status quo (trancendent class), without outside influence.

Beastly indeed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So defeating a few doesn't mean his power equals all. Just more formidable.


Thats child's play to Odin IMO.

1. Please show a single instance o Odin casually defeating a single universal level reality warper???

Fate without the amp did that, with the amp he defeated two who were aligned and as such drawing on the power of both the Lords of Order and Chaos. The merger allowed the new amped Fate to draw on both PLUS the power of the human spirit. This allowed the new merged Fate to go beyond the mere limits o just order and chaos.

2. Lesser powered versions of Dr Fate have shown to be a match for many lords of order plus as I stated this version could match Spectre who while at a lower power level ( as he was unbound which weakens him) in DoV defeated all the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre was clearly >>>>> than all and classic Fate matched a more powerful version.

3. Show a single feat of Odin demonstrating multiversal level blasts. In one JLA/ JSA cross over when destroying a vessel the impact of Fate's blasts were felt on earth 2, in Limbo and in deep space on Earth 1 at once.

Odin has had problems with celestialls, Galactus , and hell lords. Fate without the amp has matched or defeated beings like these.

Not saying he wins, but it's a tough battle for whoever does. Against just classic Fate without the merged Inza I'd lean toward Odin. Classic Fate was a close to even match to Classic Strange. He was above him in some regards like having class 100+ strength, sonic speed, invulnerability, TK that allows him to easily move planets, energy manipulation on or above Silver Surfer level, and matter manip around the same.

With Inza merged with him his power just got lifted a few more notches.

Originally posted by beatboks
1. Please show a single instance o Odin casually defeating a single universal level reality warper???

Fate without the amp did that, with the amp he defeated two who were aligned and as such drawing on the power of both the Lords of Order and Chaos. The merger allowed the new amped Fate to draw on both PLUS the power of the human spirit. This allowed the new merged Fate to go beyond the mere limits o just order and chaos.

2. Lesser powered versions of Dr Fate have shown to be a match for many lords of order plus as I stated this version could match Spectre who while at a lower power level ( as he was unbound which weakens him) in DoV defeated all the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre was clearly >>>>> than all and classic Fate matched a more powerful version.

3. Show a single feat of Odin demonstrating multiversal level blasts. In one JLA/ JSA cross over when destroying a vessel the impact of Fate's blasts were felt on earth 2, in Limbo and in deep space on Earth 1 at once.

Odin has had problems with celestialls, Galactus , and hell lords. Fate without the amp has matched or defeated beings like these.

Not saying he wins, but it's a tough battle for whoever does. Against just classic Fate without the merged Inza I'd lean toward Odin. Classic Fate was a close to even match to Classic Strange. He was above him in some regards like having class 100+ strength, sonic speed, invulnerability, TK that allows him to easily move planets, energy manipulation on or above Silver Surfer level, and matter manip around the same.

With Inza merged with him his power just got lifted a few more notches. You are exaggerating.

I will play your game.

Odin has stopped time, effected the multiverse, etc.


Odin wins.

Originally posted by beatboks
1. Please show a single instance o Odin casually defeating a single universal level reality warper???

Fate without the amp did that, with the amp he defeated two who were aligned and as such drawing on the power of both the Lords of Order and Chaos. The merger allowed the new amped Fate to draw on both PLUS the power of the human spirit. This allowed the new merged Fate to go beyond the mere limits o just order and chaos.

2. Lesser powered versions of Dr Fate have shown to be a match for many lords of order plus as I stated this version could match Spectre who while at a lower power level ( as he was unbound which weakens him) in DoV defeated all the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre was clearly >>>>> than all and classic Fate matched a more powerful version.

3. Show a single feat of Odin demonstrating multiversal level blasts. In one JLA/ JSA cross over when destroying a vessel the impact of Fate's blasts were felt on earth 2, in Limbo and in deep space on Earth 1 at once.

Odin has had problems with celestialls, Galactus , and hell lords. Fate without the amp has matched or defeated beings like these.

Not saying he wins, but it's a tough battle for whoever does. Against just classic Fate without the merged Inza I'd lean toward Odin. Classic Fate was a close to even match to Classic Strange. He was above him in some regards like having class 100+ strength, sonic speed, invulnerability, TK that allows him to easily move planets, energy manipulation on or above Silver Surfer level, and matter manip around the same.

With Inza merged with him his power just got lifted a few more notches.

I'm convinced.

Odin turns into Mantis and rapes Dr Fate

Originally posted by quanchi112


That doesn't make him equal to. Strange can invoke other powers but that doesn't make him those beings either.
Actually once said god is invoked, he can add his powers onto his. Which is why Lord Of B. Mentions that this version could easily stack Mordru powers onto his.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are exaggerating.

I will play your game.

Odin has stopped time, effected the multiverse, etc.


Odin wins.

How is it exaggeration it is on panel in the scans I presented they warped the cosmos every star and planet ceased to exist and changed into something they wanted the universe to be. Only fates and Inza were immune because of their innate immunity to reality manipulation. Once merged he simply cast them out and put everything back to the way.

When he fought totec without this enhancement their battle literally destroy all life on earth. Once he won he simply created everything anew. In doing that he stated he was reaching to the limit of his power. These are on panel feats just like in more fun comics in the 40's where he was shown to completely control time and space

Originally posted by "Id"
Actually once said god is invoked, he can add his powers onto his. Which is why Lord Of B. Mentions that this version could easily stack Mordru powers onto his. Has he done so in a comic ?

Odin has stopped time if you want to play the feats game.

Originally posted by beatboks
How is it exaggeration it is on panel in the scans I presented they warped the cosmos every star and planet ceased to exist and changed into something they wanted the universe to be. Only fates and Inza were immune because of their innate immunity to reality manipulation. Once merged he simply cast them out and put everything back to the way.

When he fought totec without this enhancement their battle literally destroy all life on earth. Once he won he simply created everything anew. In doing that he stated he was reaching to the limit of his power. These are on panel feats just like in more fun comics in the 40's where he was shown to completely control time and space Therein lies the context. An immunity changes the feat since he is immune to that avenue of attack. Takes away from the feat itself.


Odin wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Has he done so in a comic ?

Odin has stopped time if you want to play the feats game.
Yes.
And Fate can stop or manipulate time as well.

Originally posted by "Id"
Yes.
And Fate can stop or manipulate time as well. Scans.


Odin can amp off the other Asgardians. Odin wins. Portrayed consistently higher than Fate.

Originally posted by quanchi112


Odin can amp off the other Asgardians.
scans
Originally posted by quanchi112
Odin wins.

why?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Portrayed consistently higher than Fate.

scans

Originally posted by "Id"
scans

why?


scans He provides the life force of the other Asgardians and took it back when he faced off against the CelestiAls.

Superior portrayals.

Portrayed as above characters who pose a threat to Fate.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He provides the life force of the other Asgardians and took it back when he faced off against the CelestiAls.

Scans

Originally posted by quanchi112
Superior portrayals.

Such as?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Portrayed as above characters who pose a threat to Fate.

Scans

Originally posted by quanchi112
Scans.

This is pathetic.

The fact that you require "Scans' for something that is common knowledge for even a passing DC fan is a disgrace.

You have no knowledge of Dr. Fate and the Lords of Order and Chaos and yet you have the nerve to debate the issue.

Originally posted by "Id"
Scans


Such as?


Scans I am not posting scans.

Multiverse, beating Surtur, etc.


Nah.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
This is pathetic.

The fact that you require "Scans' for something that is common knowledge for even a passing DC fan is a disgrace.

You have no knowledge of Dr. Fate and the Lords of Order and Chaos and yet you have the nerve to debate the issue. Concession accepted. Look up the word all in the near future.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Portrayed as above characters who pose a threat to Fate.

This one has me curious. Who are these "alleged" characters that pose a threat to "CLASSIC" Dr Fate ???

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/aaaatotecvFate.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/AAAtotecvfate2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30145/2492771-aaaaa_kent_denies_fate.jpg

Fate is a being without end. In none of his classic appearances was there EVER any character who was a threat of any substance to him. The only means he had to "destroy him" was to try and make his host not willing to be his host any longer. Nabu had made sure nothing could harm his host by making it impervious, immune to all mortal harm, and unaging.

Even the Corrigan Spectre who was amped by the ring of life and by Kulak could only BFR him for a temporary win.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FateVSpec1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=46

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=43

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FateVSpec3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=42

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=41

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=40

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=39

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec7.jpg.html?sort=3&o=38

Hell when Andrew Bennet brought about the end of existence on behalf of the Lords of Oder (which only sparked creation anew) a later far less powerful version of Dr Fate simply watched as creation was redone, the end of existence and rebirth of everything having no effect on him at all.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/ DrFatewitnessescreationfromtheloveofOrderandChaos1
.jpg.html?sort=3&o=55
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFatewitnesscreation3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=56
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFatewitnesscreation2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=57

A few examples of Fate's control over time
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iwsWGVeFCbA/T9GKfv-tnVI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/mFzuSMciEYE/s1600/eater%2Bisland%2Bheads2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2884217- time_space_and_dimension_hold_no_barrier_to_dr_fat
e.jpg

Simple fact of the matter is anything Dr Fate believes simply is
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3078494-dr.+fate+v2+%2340+-+page+13.jpg

Originally posted by "Id"
Scans?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DF-sqqtOjGY/URRhp-nrarI/AAAAAAAAkRY/_Pk-b9AdEPw/s1600/img047.jpg

There are at least 2 notable instances where Odin has amped off Asgard itself; one is the battle with the Celestials, the other is the fight with Seth where Odin was deprived of the Odinpower.

Originally posted by beatboks
This one has me curious. Who are these "alleged" characters that pose a threat to "CLASSIC" Dr Fate ???

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/aaaatotecvFate.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/AAAtotecvfate2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30145/2492771-aaaaa_kent_denies_fate.jpg

Fate is a being without end. In none of his classic appearances was there EVER any character who was a threat of any substance to him. The only means he had to "destroy him" was to try and make his host not willing to be his host any longer. Nabu had made sure nothing could harm his host by making it impervious, immune to all mortal harm, and unaging.

Even the Corrigan Spectre who was amped by the ring of life and by Kulak could only BFR him for a temporary win.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FateVSpec1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=46

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=43

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FateVSpec3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=42

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=41

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=40

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=39

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec7.jpg.html?sort=3&o=38

Hell when Andrew Bennet brought about the end of existence on behalf of the Lords of Oder (which only sparked creation anew) a later far less powerful version of Dr Fate simply watched as creation was redone, the end of existence and rebirth of everything having no effect on him at all.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/ DrFatewitnessescreationfromtheloveofOrderandChaos1
.jpg.html?sort=3&o=55
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFatewitnesscreation3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=56
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/DrFatewitnesscreation2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=57

A few examples of Fate's control over time
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iwsWGVeFCbA/T9GKfv-tnVI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/mFzuSMciEYE/s1600/eater%2Bisland%2Bheads2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2884217- time_space_and_dimension_hold_no_barrier_to_dr_fat
e.jpg

Simple fact of the matter is anything Dr Fate believes simply is
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/3078494-dr.+fate+v2+%2340+-+page+13.jpg Making it impervious to aging and what not has no bearing on an actual fight. Surtur, Mangog, etc. Are all capable of defeating Fate despite all of the exaggerations posted here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Concession accepted. Look up the word all in the near future.

I'll gladly concede you have no idea what you are talking about.

At this point that fact is painfully self-evident to all who read this thread.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I'll gladly concede you have no idea what you are talking about.

At this point that fact is painfully self-evident to all who read this thread. Untrue. Odin wins via superior power and durability.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Untrue. Odin wins via superior power and durability.

Normal Dr. Fate would give Odin a battle.

This is NOT normal Dr. Fate but Dr. Fate + Inza. His power in this version is increased tremendously. Your resistance in accepting what not only I but other knowledgeable posters have said in this debate makes no sense.

Lets play it your way.

Dr. Fate here simply has his own power as a Lord of Order and Mordru's power as a Lord of Chaos.

Can Odin defeat both Dr. Fate and Mordru at the same time?

Originally posted by Epicurus


There are at least 2 notable instances where Odin has amped off Asgard itself; one is the battle with the Celestials, the other is the fight with Seth where Odin was deprived of the Odinpower. Oh I believe the scans exist. I am simply pestering Quanchi, with his quick spam replies, and troubling for scans along the way, when he himself rarely provides proof for his own claims.

Not necessarily directed at you. But why would this even be a factor? Odin needs to be in his realm for the amapage, a questionable response when this battle is taking place on neutral grounds.

313wank

Originally posted by quanchi112
Scans.

I am not posting scans.

"Amon-Ra make me one with you to destroy your enemy! The Sun-God fills my very being...I am Amon-Ra incarnate!" - Fate

Originally posted by "Id"
Oh I believe the scans exist. I am simply pestering Quanchi, with his quick spam replies, and troubling for scans along the way, when he himself rarely provides proof for his own claims.

Not necessarily directed at you. But why would this even be a factor? Odin needs to be in his realm for the amapage, a questionable response when this battle is taking place on neutral grounds.

313wank not that I feel like getting in the midst of this pissing match but Odin can pull Asgard to himself or just teleport them both to Asgard.

Unless Odin is for some reason cut off from Asgard/his armory he should win pretty brutally.

Originally posted by "Id"
Not necessarily directed at you. But why would this even be a factor? Odin needs to be in his realm for the amapage, a questionable response when this battle is taking place on neutral grounds.

Actually, Odin at one point absorbed the energy of other Asgardians (The Odin Force empowers not only the nine worlds, but the Asgardian race) to fight a foe instead of his own reserves and even Sif and the others who were on earth were deprived of their godly power. Not that dimensional barriers and universal distances should in anyway hinder Odin from absorbing energy, especially his own. This is the guy who enchanted Mjolnir after all.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Unless Odin is for some reason cut off from Asgard/his armory he should win pretty brutally.

"He should win pretty brutally"

No, he shouldn't.

Dr. Fate + Inza has access to the power of BOTH the Lords of Order and The Lords of Chaos.

Odin can't be 2 Lords of Order/Chaos at the same time. Dr. Fate + Inza has access to the power of both groups.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
not that I feel like getting in the midst of this pissing match but Odin can pull Asgard to himself or just teleport them both to Asgard.

Unless Odin is for some reason cut off from Asgard/his armory he should win pretty brutally.
Can you clarify what you just typed? Odin can pull Asgard into himself, outside of his realm.

Respectively Fate can channel the energies from the Realm of Order, because the Helm of Fate acts as a conduit between Fate and its Realm. Ynar and Vandaemeon where going to exploit Fate, to empower themselves enough claim the Multiverse.

Weather he can teleport to Asgard, or call his armory from Asgard isn't what I am questioning.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
not that I feel like getting in the midst of this pissing match but Odin can pull Asgard to himself or just teleport them both to Asgard.

Unless Odin is for some reason cut off from Asgard/his armory he should win pretty brutally.

How?

The very large physicality gap...

Originally posted by pym-ftw
The very large physicality gap...


WHA?



Dr. Fate has the power of the Lords of Order and The Lords of Chaos to use here.

What part of physicality is going to overcome that?

A Headbutt from Odin?

Yes

You act like its not a viable attack, and laugh and counter with platitudes...

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Yes

You act like its not a viable attack, and laugh and counter with platitudes...

A headbutt from Odin is enough to defeat the combined force of The Lords of Order and Chaos?

Not even a member of the Thor Corps would make this assertion.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Making it impervious to aging and what not has no bearing on an actual fight. Surtur, Mangog, etc. Are all capable of defeating Fate despite all of the exaggerations posted here.

Please state what exaggeration it is I've supposed to have made?

Every statement I've made in this text has been supported by the on panel evidence that proves it.

I've not even said throughout this thread that Fate wins because as I stated we haven't seen enough of this amped version to be sure. We've seen the four or five pages of the Ynar and Vaneamon battle and the few during the Inza fate run when they merged there. The merged entity has the power of order, chaos and humanity ( literally stated on panel to draw power from the several billion lives on earth- which I won't load the scan of because obviously you don't even look at them). It also Shari's their intellect with all man, woman and god seeing through each other and sharing control ( unlike standard classic Fate who was purely controlled by Nabu)

On her own Inza was the least powerful Dr Fate in "destructive" power but the most powerful in creative. She even creative 100's autonomous reality warping service baubles that could grant wishes and act on her behalf when she wasn't around to protect her neighbors.

Kent was the most powerful destructive user.

I've only questioned your baseless claims. You've made statements like "beings that pose a threat to Fate" when there has never been one that does pose a threat to Classic Fate and this is an amped version. I'm still waiting to hear what these alleged beings are, that don't exist. Only exaggeration a I can see are the ones coming from you. Not in relation to Odin but in what has been a problem for Fate

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Yes

You act like its not a viable attack, and laugh and counter with platitudes...

Physicality Gap? Odin HeadButt? Half Helm Fate has rumbled with the Spectre.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
A headbutt from Odin is enough to defeat the combined force of The Lords of Order and Chaos?

Not even a member of the Thor Corps would make this assertion. sticking to platitudes then?Originally posted by "Id"
Physicality Gap? Odin HeadButt? Half Helm Fate has rumbled with the Spectre. that was Kent V. Nelson if we are thinking of the same instance.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
that was Kent V. Nelson if we are thinking of the same instance.

I'm curious about what your both referring to, I can't recall a single instance of half helmet Fate taking on Spectre. that would be complete and utter PIS IMO.

Half helmet Kent is limited to his physical attributes ( 100+ tonner, sonic speed, impervious, TP, TK, and mystic senses) plus what magic he remembers powered by the amulet, or used in places of power (that at the time he wasn't aware of the power of, having not discovered it until the SA when he recovered the full Helm )

Originally posted by beatboks
Even the Corrigan Spectre who was amped by the ring of life and by Kulak could only BFR him for a temporary win.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FateVSpec1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=46

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=43

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FateVSpec3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=42

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=41

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=40

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=39

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/beatboks01/media/doctor%20Fate/FatevSpec7.jpg.html?sort=3&o=38

How is this Corrigan Spectre when Spectre clearly states that he is "freed from all corporal restraints" unlike Nabu who is incarnated in human form? He goes on to say that this is his strength opposed to Nabu who at that time clearly admits inferiority.

Also where does it say that Spectre is amped? All that is mentioned is control and that this control has made Spectre bloodthirsty but I wouldn't consider that an amp.

You said Spectre "could only bfr" Fate but judging from what was said by Fate and what was shown on panel in those scans, this was a walk in the park for him. Fate got bfred "THROUGH AN INFINITY OF DIMENSIONS TO THE END OF UNRECORDED TIME". That's a awesome feat for Spectre. Fate was severely outclassed in this matchup.

Originally posted by Sundipped
How is this Corrigan Spectre when Spectre clearly states that he is "freed from all corporal restraints" unlike Nabu who is incarnated in human form? He goes on to say that this is his strength opposed to Nabu who at that time clearly admits inferiority.

Also where does it say that Spectre is amped? All that is mentioned is control and that this control has made Spectre bloodthirsty but I wouldn't consider that an amp.

You said Spectre "could only bfr" Fate but judging from what was said by Fate and what was shown on panel in those scans, this was a walk in the park for him. Fate got bfred "THROUGH AN INFINITY OF DIMENSIONS TO THE END OF UNRECORDED TIME". That's a awesome feat for Spectre. Fate was severely outclassed in this matchup.

Because it's a story from All Star Squadron set in 1942 written and set well before the whole Aztar angel wrath retcon. That is how Corrigan was portrayed in original stories his Spectre form acted independently of his body as did his body.

The amp was mentioned IIRC in the next issue when Kulak sent Spectre to attack earth I'll have to look for the issues when I get home from work. The ing itself was the one thing more powerful than Spectre and was used to defeat him a few times. It also amped kulak enough to raise his long dead legion as well as restore his own power

Despite the type of BFR that's still all it was. He had to make it extra special as Fate could obviously come back pretty quick from a standard BFR. The point was and still is even Spectre couldn't destroy him, and even so he was back next issue ( with help as the fate entity questioned whether man was worth his trouble IIRC).

Since this Fate is amped quite a bit from that one it makes the whole "threat to Fate" thing a big question for me, since this fate doesn't have the stated weakness

Originally posted by pym-ftw
sticking to platitudes then?

I'd rather stick to the canon which clearly states that Odin has never defeated a character of the magnitude of Dr.Fate/Inza.

You are free to show me where he has though.

I don't think you know what platitudes are? Atleast I hope not...

Guys like Surtur, Seth or Ymir come to mind.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I don't think you know what platitudes are? Atleast I hope not...

Guys like Surtur, Seth or Ymir come to mind.

You are aware that Classic Fate has also defeat guys like Seth, Osiros, and other sky fathers right? The continuity within Dr Fate series is that all the ancient gods were either lords of order or chaos who appeared to man to have their power increased by their worship. In some cases once they abandoned the guise that worship created the gods anew. That was the reason the Greek pantheon created the Amazons to ensure their survival. Nabu chose instead to appear to man as a mortal hero/ wizard. The beauty of this was that the hero worship he received could come from the devotees of any god ( hence why he was the most powerful).

I agree that Odin vs standard classic Fate would win after a hard fight, but the version here is an amped classic Fate. One who is supposed to be a reality warper without the weaknesses inherent in Fate's normal make up. I still don't know if he'd win but it's by no means one sided.

I honestly believe if they stand apart and just blast each other its a wash, but Odin is painfully obviously above elite physically and eventually it will factor in. We can make assumptions that the merger will grant Fate additional undisplayed power but again it really will just end in constant spamming of platitudes.

I'm not saying Fate can't win, but I wouldn't bet on the guy with the (relative) glass jaw.

Wasn't Fate as strong and as durable as Pre-Crisis Superman?

He doesn't have a glass jaw.

The Superman who knocked himself out running into a fence? Admitted lowshowing but pc era was kinda a joke.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Wasn't Fate as strong and as durable as Pre-Crisis Superman?

He doesn't have a glass jaw.

Yes, he was.

It seems that canon for Dr. Fate and more importantly the combination of Dr. Fate and Inza is irrelevant here.

Maybe Pym can further enlighten me on vocabulary?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
The Superman who knocked himself out running into a fence? Admitted lowshowing but pc era was kinda a joke.

Fate was an energy being, who can amp his durability AND strength to Superman levels. He's is NOT a glass jaw. And he went head to head against the Spectre. At his height, Fate wins.

Try again.

@Lob

What word don't you understand?

Platitudes?

How does Fate get warranted to be a glass jaw, BTW?

Because he isn't above Top tier in durability, have you seen what Odin has done to Thor?

I even circled the word "relative"

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Because he isn't above Top tier in durability, have you seen what Odin has done to Thor?

I even circled the word relatively

How is he not? Have you seen some of the stuff he has endured?

What is the strongest physical hit he survived?

Spectre for one. Spectre knew he couldn't destroy Fate, IIRC, plus he can reconstruct his atoms and pull himself together. He's an energy being, so many energy attacks won't harm him (when he's in this state). Plus, he can always go intangible as well.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
@Lob

What word don't you understand?

Platitudes?

A term actually.

GLASS JAW in relation to Dr. Fate/Inza.

Do you honestly not know the term or are you being snide because you can't retort?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Do you honestly not know the term or are you being snide because you can't retort?

You can't be serious.

Your point about Dr. Fate's invulnerability is moot as the character in question is a combination of both Dr. Fate and Inza. His powers are augmented to a degree that a comparison to his base level doesn't provide any real insight to the matchup.

There have been scans posted that answer every question you've asked and refute every argument you've made and still you persist.

Lords of Order/Lords of Chaos> Surtur
Lords of Order/Lords of Chaos> Ymir
Lords of Order/Lords of Chaos> Seth

Dr.Fate+Inza has access to power that trumps Odin's.

Is this enough of a retort?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I honestly believe if they stand apart and just blast each other its a wash, but Odin is painfully obviously above elite physically and eventually it will factor in. We can make assumptions that the merger will grant Fate additional undisplayed power but again it really will just end in constant spamming of platitudes.

I'm not saying Fate can't win, but I wouldn't bet on the guy with the (relative) glass jaw.
Half helm fate knocked out Spectre with a headbutt.

uhuh

^ Spectre > Fate, no doubt.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I'd rather stick to the canon which clearly states that Odin has never defeated a character of the magnitude of Dr.Fate/Inza.

You are free to show me where he has though.

....Clearly states? heh..... Anyway, reading this thread, you're very confident that Fate's got this. Let's consider this now, shall we:

Or, JLA v1 #148, one of the Demons three mindrapes Fate:

http://i.imgur.com/TbM4zty.jpg
...later on:
http://i.imgur.com/d0cpox6.jpg

....in an old JiM issue, Odin, stops time, mind-controls the entire human race, and teleports them outside Reality-616, with a gesture:

http://i.imgur.com/jlpnPJi.jpg

Just something to think about.

--- Moving on to Fate's powers being outright ineffective:
More Fun Comics #69, Fate is completely helpless against someone who's intangible/non-physical:

http://i.imgur.com/PZsn0Y6.jpg?1

In the end he only won by destroying the machine (through plot) which rendered intangibility; bio confirmation, that fate couldn't do any physical harm:

http://i.imgur.com/QYbtQ3O.jpg?1

JLA v1 #64, Robots with sand/dust paralyzing guns nullifying fate's magic and paralyzing him:

http://i.imgur.com/ngwBlnD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u6bOa1z.jpg

That's just 2 ways Odin might win this. Ill consider some more later on.

When we consider all things, then we get a different picture. Let's not pretend Fate is this all powerful character you're presenting him to be, he's far far from that.

-----------------------------------

here's a recent universal feat from Odin (it's from the Everything Burns arc)

Surtur contained the "fires of creation" which can unmake the entire universe:

http://i.imgur.com/iTZwA7h.jpg?1

And when those energies are unleashed, Odin casually takes control of them and gets rid of them:

http://i.imgur.com/tSd0YWS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ta4Sfgp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9ogQ9oA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YkFYejT.jpg

Not sure how you even think that Odin is not on Fate's level......seriously. If anything, it's the other way around.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Fate was an energy being, who can amp his durability AND strength to Superman levels. He's is NOT a glass jaw. And he went head to head against the Spectre.

Spectre > Fate........Spectre was portrayed as a bit weak anyways, in that All Star Squadron story, he got restrained by Kulak's servants....

I can say, for instance that in all star Squadron #4, Spectre says that fate's power (at full power) is nearly as powerful as him:

http://i.imgur.com/FhONwNB.jpg?1

Originally posted by operator616
^ Spectre > Fate, no doubt.



....Clearly states? heh..... Anyway, reading this thread, you're very confident that Fate's got this. Let's consider this now, shall we:

Or, JLA v1 #148, one of the Demons three mindrapes Fate:

http://i.imgur.com/TbM4zty.jpg
...later on:
http://i.imgur.com/d0cpox6.jpg

....in an old JiM issue, Odin, stops time, mind-controls the entire human race, and teleports them outside Reality-616, with a gesture:

http://i.imgur.com/jlpnPJi.jpg

Just something to think about.

--- Moving on to Fate's powers being outright ineffective:
More Fun Comics #69, Fate is completely helpless against someone who's intangible/non-physical:

http://i.imgur.com/PZsn0Y6.jpg?1

In the end he only won by destroying the machine (through plot) which rendered intangibility; bio confirmation, that fate couldn't do any physical harm:

http://i.imgur.com/QYbtQ3O.jpg?1

JLA v1 #64, Robots with sand/dust paralyzing guns nullifying fate's magic and paralyzing him:

http://i.imgur.com/ngwBlnD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u6bOa1z.jpg

That's just 2 ways Odin might win this. Ill consider some more later on.

When we consider all things, then we get a different picture. Let's not pretend Fate is this all powerful character you're presenting him to be, he's far far from that.

-----------------------------------

here's a recent universal feat from Odin (it's from the Everything Burns arc)

Surtur contained the "fires of creation" which can unmake the entire universe:

http://i.imgur.com/iTZwA7h.jpg?1

And when those energies are unleashed, Odin casually takes control of them and gets rid of them:

http://i.imgur.com/tSd0YWS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ta4Sfgp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9ogQ9oA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YkFYejT.jpg

Not sure how you even think that Odin is not on Fate's level......seriously. If anything, it's the other way around.



Spectre > Fate........Spectre was portrayed as a bit weak anyways, in that All Star Squadron story, he got restrained by Kulak's servants....

I can say, for instance that in all star Squadron #4, Spectre says that fate's power (at full power) is nearly as powerful as him:

http://i.imgur.com/FhONwNB.jpg?1
If we're going by low showings, Odin has been knocked out by an earthquake and beaten by random aliens wielding laser guns. Not to mention Masterson Thor knocking Loki in his body with two shots from mjolnir after Loki beat the shit out of him.

^ im well aware that Odin has low showings (everyone with a vast amount of appearances, does), it's just that some people here (like LoB) are presenting Fate as an all-powerful character (which he's far from), is all. He was also saying that Odin never beat a character of Fate's magnitude (which he did), when Fate himself has been beaten/proved ineffective by lower beings.

Originally posted by operator616
^ im well aware that Odin has low showings (everyone with a vast amount of appearances, does), it's just that some people here (like LoB) are presenting Fate as an all-powerful character (which he's far from), is all. He was also saying that Odin never beat a character of Fate's magnitude (which he did), when Fate himself has been beaten/proved ineffective by lower beings.

Spectre still said Fate was nearly, which is still uber, IMO. Didn't Fate have a spell that shattered a universe?

Originally posted by operator616
^ im well aware that Odin has low showings (everyone with a vast amount of appearances, does), it's just that some people here (like LoB) are presenting Fate as an all-powerful character (which he's far from), is all. He was also saying that Odin never beat a character of Fate's magnitude (which he did), when Fate himself has been beaten/proved ineffective by lower beings.
Alright, we both know its a futile endeavor at best to compare showings from such variable characters like Fate and Odin.

srug

Originally posted by operator616
^ im well aware that Odin has low showings (everyone with a vast amount of appearances, does), it's just that some people here (like LoB) are presenting Fate as an all-powerful character (which he's far from), is all. He was also saying that Odin never beat a character of Fate's magnitude (which he did), when Fate himself has been beaten/proved ineffective by lower beings.

None of your scans involve this Dr. Fate.

Dr.Fate+Inza.

^ you didn't seem any trouble accepting Beatbok's scans, some of which "don't involve this Fate".

Originally posted by Golgo13
Spectre still said Fate was nearly, which is still uber, IMO. Didn't Fate have a spell that shattered a universe?

Yeah, my main point is that Spectre > fate. i think we both agree with that.

Eric-Fate. It was a shared feat.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Alright, we both know its a futile endeavor at best to compare showings from such variable characters like Fate and Odin.


When dealing with Classic characters, some people must be reminded of the limitations.

I mean, ive seen people believe that classic Strange was LT level based on the out-of context interpretation of his encounter with LT back in the 60s. I assure you, that by posting only high showings for Fate, some people will start thinking that he's an uber cosmic being

Originally posted by operator616
^ you didn't seem any trouble accepting Beatbok's scans, some of which "don't involve this Fate".

Those scans were in reference to the false claim of Dr. Fate having a "Glass jaw".

The scans didn't portray anything that enhanced Fate's power in any illegitimate way.

Originally posted by operator616
When dealing with Classic characters, some people must be reminded of the limitations.

I mean, ive seen people believe that classic Strange was LT level based on the out-of context interpretation of his encounter with LT back in the 60s. I assure you, that by posting only high showings for Fate, some people will start thinking that he's an uber cosmic being
Yeah, I know all about that.

Originally posted by operator616
^ you didn't seem any trouble accepting Beatbok's scans, some of which "don't involve this Fate".



Yeah, my main point is that Spectre > fate. i think we both agree with that.

Eric-Fate. It was a shared feat.

Are you talking about Cosmic Odyssey?

Originally posted by operator616
^ im well aware that Odin has low showings (everyone with a vast amount of appearances, does), it's just that some people here (like LoB) are presenting Fate as an all-powerful character (which he's far from), is all. He was also saying that Odin never beat a character of Fate's magnitude (which he did), when Fate himself has been beaten/proved ineffective by lower beings.

I get that you're not really interested but I'd just like to note that Masterson simply knocked over Odin who was actually Loki in his noticeably weakened body:
http://s16.postimg.org/wy9w3oyrp/Thor455_13.jpg
http://s16.postimg.org/3xa5813ph/Thor455_14.jpg

I'd also like to note even an issue later after Odin is taken out by the "earthquake" (Some all-powerful God Jewel let out a powerful sonic vibration that took everyone out), he notes that his full strength has yet to return:
http://s15.postimg.org/bau4kqd4n/Thor_215_17.jpg

Just to add some context to these claims. While, it's true that Conway's Odin wasn't the all-powerful Cosmic entity that Lee/Kirby wrote about before, his overall power depiction was still superior to a lot of stories that Fate was in. Even when you take into account ants with lasers.

The God Jewel creature was actually pretty powerful:
http://s8.postimg.org/q5y401yox/Thor_216_08.jpghttp://s8.postimg.org/4xkfimk81/Thor_216_09.jpghttp://s8.postimg.org/p6cei38wx/Thor_216_10.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/508wj7d9d/Thor_216_15.jpghttp://s17.postimg.org/5ti8wiytn/Thor_216_17.jpghttp://s17.postimg.org/3q7touz0r/Thor_216_18.jpghttp://s17.postimg.org/tn1i1h2ob/Thor_216_19.jpg

Also, earlier in that story, it's power was said to perhaps rival Odin's more or less:
http://s12.postimg.org/pxj1rnbs9/Thor_215_04.jpg

So even then, Odin when not weakened at least, was a high end being. Sif and Karnilla sustaining the basic power of the creature is probably also very impressive if I were to think about it.

Although I should probably re-read the entire story for all the details.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Are you talking about Cosmic Odyssey?

Yes, that's where it happened.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I get that you're not really interested but I'd just like to note that Masterson simply knocked over Odin who was actually Loki in his noticeably weakened body:
http://s16.postimg.org/wy9w3oyrp/Thor455_13.jpg
http://s16.postimg.org/3xa5813ph/Thor455_14.jpg


Yup. Loki was technically in control for over a 2 dozen issues. Because it was revealed that Loki was the one who ordered Thor's banishment back in issue #432.....up until #455, where Odin regained control, as you know.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

I'd also like to note even an issue later after Odin is taken out by the "earthquake" (Some all-powerful God Jewel let out a powerful sonic vibration that took everyone out), he notes that his full strength has yet to return:

http://postimg.org/image/bau4kqd4n/

Just to add some context to these claims. While, it's true that Conway's Odin wasn't the all-powerful Cosmic entity that Lee/Kirby wrote about before, his overall power depiction was still superior to a lot of stories that Fate was in. Even when you take into account ants with lasers.



Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The God Jewel creature was actually pretty powerful:

http://postimg.org/image/q5y401yox/
http://postimg.org/image/4xkfimk81/
http://postimg.org/image/p6cei38wx/
http://postimg.org/image/508wj7d9d/
http://postimg.org/image/5ti8wiytn/
http://postimg.org/image/3q7touz0r/
http://postimg.org/image/tn1i1h2ob/

Also, earlier in that story, it's power was said to perhaps rival Odin's more or less:

http://postimg.org/image/pxj1rnbs9/

So even then, Odin when not weakened at least, was a high end being. Sif and Karnilla sustaining the basic power of the creature is probably also very impressive if I were to think about it.

Although I should probably re-read the entire story for all the details.

There's no doubt that the creature is extremely powerful.

Heck, it was hinted that he's more powerful than Galactus, in one of the scans you posted from Thor #216:

http://i.imgur.com/3NNDjNk.jpg?1

Furthermore, the 1970s legacy handbook says that his power is greater than Galactus:

http://i.imgur.com/iOyUx76.jpg?1

Now, this may not be accurate but it gives you the general idea on what level he's supposed to be.....nice. Although that's a bit deviating from the point, i do consider Odin knocked out by the earthquake/sonic disruption/whatever, a low showing.

Not that it takes anything away from Odin. Every character has low showings, we simply take the average showings for each character, as im sure you're well aware.

Actually those scans were before the "glass jaw" comment



O_o that goes without saying and it's mores like Spectre >>>> Fate. even the scans i used show Spec bests Fate (as he has in all four of their altercations). The whole point of ALL that was to demonstrate even Spectre can't destroy Fate. Even fate's low showings don't show him susceptible to sustainable damage. At best he's been immobilized, BFR'd, or some such. Odin would beat standard Classic Fate every time I simply believe that Fate would put up a decent fight before he goes down.



Gotta love the inconsistency of those old GA stories huh? it was just a couple of issues later during a the telling of Fate's origin he was after some hell lord Nedal (something close, I remember thinking when the countdown to mystery story of kent V was unfolding how wicked to tribute the original not just with the name but the first opponent)or some such IIRC. In that tale he easily dispatched similar "wraiths" despite being a complete neophyte. It was the story after the one where he revealed himself to Inza as Kent after saving the Leopard from being tricked into killing herself.


and this brings me back to where I came in, there just aren't enough scans OF THIS Fate. basically we have the 5 pages of the story where he battled Ynar and Vaneamon, a page or so after the mantle passed back to Kent and Inza from Erik and Linda and the scan I showed earlier which is after Inza breaks Chaos' as her power source and draws from all mankind and can once again merge with Kent.

Six or seven pages of material to judge a version by simply isn't enough which is why it mostly becomes conjecture.



I hope I'm not one of those people, if it seemed that way it was certainly NOT my intent. He is far from all powerful. He's certainly high up the ranks in DC's power houses but no where near an all powerful character. he is limited like all other DCU mystics by the laws of DC magic (which fro Classic fate was under the 9th age)

Originally posted by beatboks

O_o that goes without saying and it's mores like Spectre >>>> Fate. even the scans i used show Spec bests Fate (as he has in all four of their altercations). The whole point of ALL that was to demonstrate even Spectre can't destroy Fate. Even fate's low showings don't show him susceptible to sustainable damage. At best he's been immobilized, BFR'd, or some such.

Odin would beat standard Classic Fate every time I simply believe that Fate would put up a decent fight before he goes down.


Yeah, that goes without saying for someone like you (who actually read the stories), but for those who didn't, and based on scans/comments posted in this thread, some may think that Fate was at the very least at Spectre's level (which would be.....multiversal level, at least in some minds). Im sure many people don't read classic stories. Hence the clarification.

That aside, I do remember knocking the Spectre and himself in the process in another encounter (it's from JLA #193, the part which features special All star squadron preview):

http://i.imgur.com/ZogNBOl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pr9u50a.jpg

Fair enough on the second part.

Originally posted by beatboks


Gotta love the inconsistency of those old GA stories huh? it was just a couple of issues later during a the telling of Fate's origin he was after some hell lord Nedal.


Yes, which is why he's not the all powerful character some are presenting him to be (not pointing at you).

also, Fate's first origins story, was told before more fun comics #69. It was in the same More Fun comics issue (Spectre's story) which had Kathoon mind-control the Spectre or something like that.



Originally posted by beatboks

and this brings me back to where I came in, there just aren't enough scans OF THIS Fate. basically we have the 5 pages of the story where he battled Ynar and Vaneamon, a page or so after the mantle passed back to Kent and Inza from Erik and Linda and the scan I showed earlier which is after Inza breaks Chaos' as her power source and draws from all mankind and can once again merge with Kent.

Six or seven pages of material to judge a version by simply isn't enough which is why it mostly becomes conjecture.


Yep, although that version of Fate featured in the Flash story, does definitely have a chance against Odin, im not saying otherwise. but it's definitely not a certain win for Fate (like LoB is saying here).

And there's that one thing, the world returned back to normal as a side effect of Fate beating the lords. And in that Flash issue (#312) we merely saw the landscape warped:

http://i.imgur.com/uJ4PlOz.jpg

So it's a bit questionable, regarding the scale of the feat.

But yeah, too much limited material to go by.

Originally posted by beatboks

I hope I'm not one of those people, if it seemed that way it was certainly NOT my intent. He is far from all powerful. He's certainly high up the ranks in DC's power houses but no where near an all powerful character. he is limited like all other DCU mystics by the laws of DC magic (which fro Classic fate was under the 9th age)

Ive got no problem with you. At least you are respectful and backing up your stance with evidence, as opposed to someone like LoB who just makes fun of other people comments and hides behind your back.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Those scans were in reference to the false claim of Dr. Fate having a "Glass jaw".

The scans didn't portray anything that enhanced Fate's power in any illegitimate way. if your going to lie, try harder. The scans were posted before I even posted in the thread.

Originally posted by operator616
At least you are respectful and backing up your stance with evidence, as opposed to someone like LoB who just makes fun of other people comments and hides behind your back.

Your statement here is completely baseless.

If someone engages in a debate there is at minimum a presumption of the parties involved having a modicum of knowledge about the subject at hand. Do you mean to tell me that I have to post "Evidence" of the power of the Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos to people denying their power? These are characters, especially in the form of the 2 most well known members, Dr. Fate and Mordru that have been around for several decades.

You are clearly exhibiting Marvel bias and trying to hide it using me as a crutch.

Would it be reasonable of me to require "Evidence" that Odin can draw the power of Asdardians unto himself? Or demand "Scans" indicating his power as a Mage?

Quan got stomped because he knew nothing of Dr. Fate, Nabu, Mordru, Inza or any of the other characters involved in that aspect of canon.

Pym follows up with an argument favoring "Physicality" on Odin's part to a character that has the power of all the Lords of Order and Chaos, How is that a plausible scenario for Odin winning?

I have to hide behind no ones back. The claims I made are backed by CANON, pure and simple.

There isn't a single argument or assertion that I've made that came AFTER Beatboks post. NONE. So again, your statement is totally without merit.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
if your going to lie, try harder. The scans were posted before I even posted in the thread.

Lie about what?

Maybe you should've read the thread before posting.

Again, what is there to lie about in relation to the scans?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Lie about what?

Maybe you should've read the thread before posting.

Again, what is there to lie about in relation to the scans? so you feign ignorance, then admit to lying, and follow it up by again doubling down on lying.

Originally posted by beatboks
Please state what exaggeration it is I've supposed to have made?

Every statement I've made in this text has been supported by the on panel evidence that proves it.

I've not even said throughout this thread that Fate wins because as I stated we haven't seen enough of this amped version to be sure. We've seen the four or five pages of the Ynar and Vaneamon battle and the few during the Inza fate run when they merged there. The merged entity has the power of order, chaos and humanity ( literally stated on panel to draw power from the several billion lives on earth- which I won't load the scan of because obviously you don't even look at them). It also Shari's their intellect with all man, woman and god seeing through each other and sharing control ( unlike standard classic Fate who was purely controlled by Nabu)

On her own Inza was the least powerful Dr Fate in "destructive" power but the most powerful in creative. She even creative 100's autonomous reality warping service baubles that could grant wishes and act on her behalf when she wasn't around to protect her neighbors.

Kent was the most powerful destructive user.

I've only questioned your baseless claims. You've made statements like "beings that pose a threat to Fate" when there has never been one that does pose a threat to Classic Fate and this is an amped version. I'm still waiting to hear what these alleged beings are, that don't exist. Only exaggeration a I can see are the ones coming from you. Not in relation to Odin but in what has been a problem for Fate You are cherry picking just like people do with Stranges feats while keeping your distance from the average and completely ignoring the lower ones.

Odin is portrayed much higher on average than Fate combo here. Just accept it.

Originally posted by "Id"
I am not posting scans.

"Amon-Ra make me one with you to destroy your enemy! The Sun-God fills my very being...I am Amon-Ra incarnate!" - Fate Hyperbole.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Normal Dr. Fate would give Odin a battle.

This is NOT normal Dr. Fate but Dr. Fate + Inza. His power in this version is increased tremendously. Your resistance in accepting what not only I but other knowledgeable posters have said in this debate makes no sense.

Lets play it your way.

Dr. Fate here simply has his own power as a Lord of Order and Mordru's power as a Lord of Chaos.

Can Odin defeat both Dr. Fate and Mordru at the same time? No, he couldn't just like Strange can't give him a battle either. Odin is much higher and quit ignoring the average portrayals here.

Odin would crush Mordru since lightning owns the guy.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Your statement here is completely baseless.

If someone engages in a debate there is at minimum a presumption of the parties involved having a modicum of knowledge about the subject at hand. Do you mean to tell me that I have to post "Evidence" of the power of the Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos to people denying their power? These are characters, especially in the form of the 2 most well known members, Dr. Fate and Mordru that have been around for several decades.


You must post evidence, when you're asked for it. In which case.....you didn't. For example, when Quan asked for scans of Fate being one with the deity he invokes; you made a sarcastic comment how that's "basic knowledge" or something instead of posting actual evidence and getting it out of the way (shouldn't be too hard considering it's "basic knowledge", you know, which it isn't, btw).

You didn't even have to post evidence, you can simply reference a feat like "Id" did; he just referenced an example of how Fate invoked/became one with Amon-Ra (which is true, this happened toward the end of 1st Issue Special #9, or the reprint in Immortal Doctor Fate #1).

That's how things work.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn

You are clearly exhibiting Marvel bias and trying to hide it using me as a crutch.


Really? Tell me exactly how im "bias". Go ahead.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn

There isn't a single argument or assertion that I've made that came AFTER Beatboks post. NONE. So again, your statement is totally without merit.

Well, im pretty sure that Beatboks was the one who posted the scans from Flash/Immortal Dr Fate.

After which all your arguments been "But this fate has the power of lords of order and chaos"; you were also making faulty claims such as "Odin can't beat even 2 lords of order/chaos", which is wrong. As a collective, it would become a different matter.

Whatever though, im done here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by operator616
And in that Flash issue (#312)

Flash #313. Typo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hyperbole.


No it's not. It was illustrated on panel, we see the image of Amon-Ra (1st issue special #9):

http://i.imgur.com/Nkay5Wf.jpg?1

so it's definitely not a hyperbole.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hyperbole.

No, he couldn't just like Strange can't give him a battle either. Odin is much higher and quit ignoring the average portrayals here.

Odin would crush Mordru since lightning owns the guy.

Thank you for posting this.

You've just illustrated everything I posted about earlier.

Lightning "Owns" Mordru and yet if someone were to post a low point for Odin, they are "Cherry Picking"

You've arrived just in time, Quan.

Originally posted by operator616
You must post evidence, when you're asked for it. In which case.....you didn't. For example, when Quan asked for scans of Fate being one with the deity he invokes; you made a sarcastic comment how that's "basic knowledge" or something instead of posting actual evidence and getting it out of the way (shouldn't be too hard considering it's "basic knowledge", you know, which it isn't, btw).

You didn't even have to post evidence, you can simply reference a feat like "Id" did; he just referenced an example of how Fate invoked/became one with Amon-Ra (which is true, this happened toward the end of 1st Issue Special #9, or the reprint in Immortal Doctor Fate #1).

That's how things work.



Really? Tell me exactly how im "bias". Go ahead.



Well, im pretty sure that Beatboks was the one who posted the scans from Flash/Immortal Dr Fate.

After which all your arguments been "But this fate has the power of lords of order and chaos"; you were also making faulty claims such as "Odin can't beat even 2 lords of order/chaos", which is wrong. As a collective, it would become a different matter.

Whatever though, im done here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Flash #313. Typo.



No it's not. It was illustrated on panel, we see the image of Amon-Ra (1st issue special #9):

http://i.imgur.com/Nkay5Wf.jpg?1

so it's definitely not a hyperbole. Hyperbole in the sense that being Amon Ra doesn't really prove anything at base value. Just like posting evidence Odin is omnipotent is hyperbole despite it being in the comics themselves.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Thank you for posting this.

You've just illustrated everything I posted about earlier.

Lightning "Owns" Mordru and yet if someone were to post a low point for Odin, they are "Cherry Picking"

You've arrived just in time, Quan. A clear point was how lightning clearly effects him. Odin has made his son the god of thunder so it is a bad matchup for Mordru. Odin also can absorb Mordru which he has a fear of. All in all Odin slaps the piss out of Mordru any which way you want it.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
so you feign ignorance, then admit to lying, and follow it up by again doubling down on lying.

YOU. FAILED. TO. READ. BEFORE. POSTING.

YOU THEN MADE A CLAIM THAT WAS ALREADY ANSWERED PRIOR.

To then claim that I'm lying, and now doubling down on lying is absolutely asinine!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
YOU. FAILED. TO. READ. BEFORE. POSTING.

YOU THEN MADE A CLAIM THAT WAS ALREADY ANSWERED PRIOR.

To then claim that I'm lying, and now doubling down on lying is absolutely asinine! honestly are you incapable of reading what your typing? You said the scans were posted in response of what I said, which is a LIE, you haven't refuted anything and have made hypothetit claims based solely on platitudes and titles.

The irony of your posts are amazing, now your lying about what your posting and expecting me to infer from the tripe your spewing that you have something worthwhile to add.

Originally posted by operator616
You must post evidence, when you're asked for it. In which case.....you didn't. For example, when Quan asked for scans of Fate being one with the deity he invokes; you made a sarcastic comment how that's "basic knowledge" or something instead of posting actual evidence and getting it out of the way (shouldn't be too hard considering it's "basic knowledge", you know, which it isn't, btw).

You didn't even have to post evidence, you can simply reference a feat like "Id" did; he just referenced an example of how Fate invoked/became one with Amon-Ra (which is true, this happened toward the end of 1st Issue Special #9, or the reprint in Immortal Doctor Fate #1).

That's how things work.



Really? Tell me exactly how im "bias". Go ahead.



Well, im pretty sure that Beatboks was the one who posted the scans from Flash/Immortal Dr Fate.

After which all your arguments been "But this fate has the power of lords of order and chaos"; you were also making faulty claims such as "Odin can't beat even 2 lords of order/chaos", which is wrong. As a collective, it would become a different matter.

Whatever though, im done here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not so fast.

Dr. Fate has taken on The Spectre under circumstances where he was not augmented and held his own.

You mean to tell me that a character that can battle The Spectre to this extent can't give Odin a battle?

Would I need to post scans demonstrating The Spectre's power here to validate the claim?

Mordru is the most powerful Lord of Chaos. Let us say he is equally as powerful as Normal fate.

The combination of Dr. Fate and Mordru isn't enough to beat Odin?

Enlighten me as to why this is faulty.

What is truly bizarre here is that the scans of Dr.Fate/Inza are on the FIRST PAGE and still you have a requirement for "Evidence".

Would the canon become more valid if I post it?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
honestly are you incapable of reading what your typing? You said the scans were posted in response of what I said, which is a LIE, you haven't refuted anything and have made hypothetit claims based solely on platitudes and titles.

The irony of your posts are amazing, now your lying about what your posting and expecting me to infer from the tripe your spewing that you have something worthwhile to add.

Give me a break.

You made a claim.

You were proven wrong.

You won't accept it and now are diverting the argument to personal attacks.

Pathetic.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
honestly are you incapable of reading what your typing? You said the scans were posted in response of what I said, which is a LIE, you haven't refuted anything and have made hypothetit claims based solely on platitudes and titles.

The irony of your posts are amazing, now your lying about what your posting and expecting me to infer from the tripe your spewing that you have something worthwhile to add.

Originally posted by quanchi112


I'll give you a thumbs up when you show me Odin defeating someone with the Power of Dr.Fate/Inza.

I can literally time when you will re-enter a thread.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Give me a break.

You made a claim.

You were proven wrong.

You won't accept it and now are diverting the argument to personal attacks.

Pathetic. Fine ill give you a break

I did

No I wasn't

Your still lying

Ironic post +1

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I'll give you a thumbs up when you show me Odin defeating someone with the Power of Dr.Fate/Inza.

I can literally time when you will re-enter a thread. Operator already posted scans both demonstrating other showings and the context of those showings. Quit being emotional since you're wrong and can't even debate properly. Debating based off of titles and what not isn't debating at all.

Odin wins based off his showings of power and abilities.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Operator already posted scans both demonstrating other showings and the context of those showings. Quit being emotional since you're wrong and can't even debate properly. Debating based off of titles and what not isn't debating at all.

Odin wins based off his showings of power and abilities.

You were crushed.

You came back after others picked up the debate.

The character in question has a single appearance which was posted here.

I gave you not ONE but TWO examples of a Lord of Order, Fate, and a Lord of Chaos, Mordru. As clearly illustrated by the almighty scan, Dr. Fate Inza can draw upon BOTH the power of the Lords of Order/Chaos.

This was explained to you TWICE in this thread by other posters and yet you STILL return with the same irrational claims.

As I stated before, if Dr. Fate Inza could simply gain the power of a single Lord of Chaos, i.e. Mordru, it would be enough to beat Odin.

You've embarassed yourself yet again.

Wait and see if Operator will return and then post again.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Fine ill give you a break

I did

No I wasn't

Your still lying

Ironic post +1

Yeah, this will be the sum total of your contribution to the thread.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Yeah, this will be the sum total of your contribution to the thread. so does this mean you don't want the break I so magnanimously would have granted you?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Not so fast.

Dr. Fate has taken on The Spectre under circumstances where he was not augmented and held his own.

You mean to tell me that a character that can battle The Spectre to this extent can't give Odin a battle?

Would I need to post scans demonstrating The Spectre's power here to validate the claim?


Ive read practically every appearance of the spectre pre and post crisis, so you're not educating me on anything.

But im curious, what Spectre feats do you have in mind?

And im well aware of Fate's encounter with the Spectre in All-Star Squadron #27, and i already said that he was portrayed a bit weak during that instance, here's a retelling from issue #28, where Kulak's servants restrain him:

http://i.imgur.com/MzVuyDx.jpg?1

That's the one that Fate battled.

Compare that to something like, say, Spectre summoning the energy of a hundred non-universes at half power, in Spectre v1 #4:

http://i.imgur.com/GoiVJiV.jpg?1

It's also a high showing for Fate. Also earlier in the series, in issue 4, Spectre confirmed > Fate (not that it needs to be confirmed, but in your case, it should):

http://i.imgur.com/FhONwNB.jpg?1

On avergae, Fate is not on Odin's level, that's "basic knowledge" going by your terminology.



Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn

Mordru is the most powerful Lord of Chaos. Let us say he is equally as powerful as Normal fate.

The combination of Dr. Fate and Mordru isn't enough to beat Odin?

Enlighten me as to why this is faulty.


Ah, so you're just picking now the most powerful lords, how nice.

Although it depends on the version of Mordru you're talking about. Because there are different versions, you know.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn

What is truly bizarre here is that the scans of Dr.Fate/Inza are on the FIRST PAGE and still you have a requirement for "Evidence".


......I have a requirement for evidence? When did i require evidence? I read the Flash story, and presented a scan regarding Fate's final feat, which is kinda questionable. So stop putting words in my mouth.

I was merely saying that when you make a claim, you should back it up with evidence, instead of making irrelevant sarcastic comments.

Originally posted by operator616


This might be a better approach.

Page 2 of this thread sums up things nicely.

1)Dr.Fate/INZA- I claim that Dr.Fate in this incarnation can access the power of Both the Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos. That would mean that ANY of the Lords are viable for him to take power from.

This claim is supported by other posters on page 2.

2)Picking the Most Powerful- This is addressed in point one but I'll do so again. I chose Mordru as an example that would be easily recognizable and has enough appearances to draw an appropriate gauge of his power. I've stated as much.

3) Scans- Beatboks, I hesitate to even mention his name as the attachment might be drawn as a negative. Neverthless, he was gracious enough to post scans that show that Dr. Fate Inza can draw upon the power of humanity as well. A fact that I haven't even factored in because I feel it is unnecessary.

In closing, I made claims and those claims were affirmed by both scans and statements. Anything beyond that now has nothing to do with the actual debate at hand but obfuscation based on personal attacks.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
so does this mean you don't want the break I so magnanimously would have granted you?

Save it for another time.

^ Are you trying NOT to understand my post or something? Because all you said, has literally nothing to do with what i said, and i never even disputed them. Or perhaps you don't understand that "the Flash" story which i keep referencing is the same one which involves this version of Fate (the one with Ynar and Vandeamon)....?

So, not going to continue this pointless debate, have a nice day.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Are you trying NOT to understand my post or something

if i had a dime for every time i thought THAT in a forum discussion.....

Originally posted by operator616
^ Are you trying NOT to understand my post or something? Because all you said, has literally nothing to do with what i said, and i never even disputed them.?

So, not going to continue this pointless debate, have a nice day.



Ah, so you're just picking now the most powerful lords, how nice.

Although it depends on the version of Mordru you're talking about. Because there are different versions, you know.

Which led to..

2)Picking the Most Powerful- This is addressed in point one but I'll do so again. I chose Mordru as an example that would be easily recognizable and has enough appearances to draw an appropriate gauge of his power. I've stated as much.



I was merely saying that when you make a claim, you should back it up with evidence, instead of making irrelevant sarcastic comments.

Response,

3) Scans- Beatboks, I hesitate to even mention his name as the attachment might be drawn as a negative. Neverthless, he was gracious enough to post scans that show that Dr. Fate Inza can draw upon the power of humanity as well. A fact that I haven't even factored in because I feel it is unnecessary.

^ Except that the "scans" which were asked had nothing to do with the ones that Beatboks posted. Because Quan asked for scans of Fate being one with the deity he invoked.......which has nothing to do with what Beatboks posted. Nice try.

The "not trying to understand my post" was in-reference to your 1st and 3rd points (not 2nd), hence why it was later followed by "the flash story", so let's not try and deviate from the point.

You also tried to explain to me how this version of Fate can tap into the powers of Lords of Chaos/Order which i never even disputed, and acknowledged it, yet, you acted like i didn't, and restated it. So yeah......you're trying very hard NOT to understand my post.

But if all you want is to get the last word in.....then so be it.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Except that the "scans" which were asked had nothing to do with the ones that Beatboks posted. Because Quan asked for scans of Fate being one with the deity he invoked.......which has nothing to do with what Beatboks posted. Nice try.


So you're arguing on Quan's behalf and your own and I'm supposed to have known that.

I like the "Nice try" comment in light of this.

On Quan's behalf, aka the other side of the argument?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are cherry picking just like people do with Stranges feats while keeping your distance from the average and completely ignoring the lower ones.

Odin is portrayed much higher on average than Fate combo here. Just accept it.

The Scans I loaded were specifically for the proof you asked scans for. I've ignored nothing because as I've stated al Classic Fate's low showings still don't show him being susceptible to physical hard. He just isn't, he can and has been immobilized, BFR'd and the like but not physically harmed. Hell even without his mystical talismans like the Helm Kent has been show to be able to tank just about anything. His only physical weakness without mystical artifacts is the need to breath. A weakness he looses once he dons the Helm of Nabu and becomes a Lord of order.

He is of course limited by the same rules of magic that affect all the DCU which limit he amount of magical energy that a mortal form can wield without destroying it. This is the reason the talismans are needed in the first place. It's also the reason why he invokes the power of other gods in SA stories and why Nabu has always altered his host to be more resilient and durable. drawing power through talismans, familiars or higher beings is the only way a mortal can within the DCU's ninth age of magic - this is a weakness that say beings like Spectre, Shade, Eclipso and Zor do not have as their existence is freed from such restraints. Mentioned in one of the scans I loaded of the Fate Spectre fight also and highlighted iirc by sun dipped. This very limitation doesn't apply as much here due to OP set up. As this is merged Kent and Inza they draw powder through all mankind ( meaning millions of "familiars" to handle any overload of power) and their form is a merger of two mortal forms and a lord of Order essence ( so can take much more power strain and call on more magic).

As for accepting it, do you have a problem keeping up? I've stated since the start of this thread and said it about 5 times now Odin would beat standard Dr Fate but Fate would give him a fight( something operator I believe succeeded to). The reasons are simply
1. His durability that has not had a lower showing to counter
2. In his classic appearances Fate is more often portrayed as an energy manipulator who senses the energy within the danger he faces and draws on it to fight that danger with its own power. Pretty much the same way modern Mordru is portrayed like when he fought Shazam on the ROE or took the star heart. Even classic Mordru drained all the magic of sorcerers world and the universe.

I've actually not said anywhere that Fate wins, so please open your eyes and read. I've questioned the use of a version of a character with so little evidence to support them and who is highly speculative. Maybe you should make sure you have an accurate representation of the position another poster takes before trying to put words in their mouth.

Originally posted by operator616
Yes, that's where it happened.



Yup. Loki was technically in control for over a 2 dozen issues. Because it was revealed that Loki was the one who ordered Thor's banishment back in issue #432.....up until #455, where Odin regained control, as you know.







There's no doubt that the creature is extremely powerful.

Heck, it was hinted that he's more powerful than Galactus, in one of the scans you posted from Thor #216:

http://i.imgur.com/3NNDjNk.jpg?1

Furthermore, the 1970s legacy handbook says that his power is greater than Galactus:

http://i.imgur.com/iOyUx76.jpg?1

Now, this may not be accurate but it gives you the general idea on what level he's supposed to be.....nice. Although that's a bit deviating from the point, i do consider Odin knocked out by the earthquake/sonic disruption/whatever, a low showing.

Not that it takes anything away from Odin. Every character has low showings, we simply take the average showings for each character, as im sure you're well aware.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
On Quan's behalf, aka the other side of the argument?

Who cares about arguments? Either you're with Quan or you are against Quan uhuh

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You were crushed.

You came back after others picked up the debate.

The character in question has a single appearance which was posted here.

I gave you not ONE but TWO examples of a Lord of Order, Fate, and a Lord of Chaos, Mordru. As clearly illustrated by the almighty scan, Dr. Fate Inza can draw upon BOTH the power of the Lords of Order/Chaos.

This was explained to you TWICE in this thread by other posters and yet you STILL return with the same irrational claims.

As I stated before, if Dr. Fate Inza could simply gain the power of a single Lord of Chaos, i.e. Mordru, it would be enough to beat Odin.

You've embarassed yourself yet again.

Wait and see if Operator will return and then post again. I was not crushed. You have no idea how to actually debate itself. This thread makes that point painfully obvious.

No, it would not since it does not change the durability of Fate and since this isn't his average showing.


Quit ignoring the context. Odin wins.

Originally posted by beatboks
The Scans I loaded were specifically for the proof you asked scans for. I've ignored nothing because as I've stated al Classic Fate's low showings still don't show him being susceptible to physical hard. He just isn't, he can and has been immobilized, BFR'd and the like but not physically harmed. Hell even without his mystical talismans like the Helm Kent has been show to be able to tank just about anything. His only physical weakness without mystical artifacts is the need to breath. A weakness he looses once he dons the Helm of Nabu and becomes a Lord of order.

He is of course limited by the same rules of magic that affect all the DCU which limit he amount of magical energy that a mortal form can wield without destroying it. This is the reason the talismans are needed in the first place. It's also the reason why he invokes the power of other gods in SA stories and why Nabu has always altered his host to be more resilient and durable. drawing power through talismans, familiars or higher beings is the only way a mortal can within the DCU's ninth age of magic - this is a weakness that say beings like Spectre, Shade, Eclipso and Zor do not have as their existence is freed from such restraints. Mentioned in one of the scans I loaded of the Fate Spectre fight also and highlighted iirc by sun dipped. This very limitation doesn't apply as much here due to OP set up. As this is merged Kent and Inza they draw powder through all mankind ( meaning millions of "familiars" to handle any overload of power) and their form is a merger of two mortal forms and a lord of Order essence ( so can take much more power strain and call on more magic).

As for accepting it, do you have a problem keeping up? I've stated since the start of this thread and said it about 5 times now Odin would beat standard Dr Fate but Fate would give him a fight( something operator I believe succeeded to). The reasons are simply
1. His durability that has not had a lower showing to counter
2. In his classic appearances Fate is more often portrayed as an energy manipulator who senses the energy within the danger he faces and draws on it to fight that danger with its own power. Pretty much the same way modern Mordru is portrayed like when he fought Shazam on the ROE or took the star heart. Even classic Mordru drained all the magic of sorcerers world and the universe.

I've actually not said anywhere that Fate wins, so please open your eyes and read. I've questioned the use of a version of a character with so little evidence to support them and who is highly speculative. Maybe you should make sure you have an accurate representation of the position another poster takes before trying to put words in their mouth. You cherry picked. You're clinging to the higher showings not the entire body of work. Operator already corrected you.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
This might be a better approach.

Page 2 of this thread sums up things nicely.

1)Dr.Fate/INZA- I claim that Dr.Fate in this incarnation can access the power of Both the Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos. That would mean that ANY of the Lords are viable for him to take power from.

This claim is supported by other posters on page 2.

2)Picking the Most Powerful- This is addressed in point one but I'll do so again. I chose Mordru as an example that would be easily recognizable and has enough appearances to draw an appropriate gauge of his power. I've stated as much.

3) Scans- Beatboks, I hesitate to even mention his name as the attachment might be drawn as a negative. Neverthless, he was gracious enough to post scans that show that Dr. Fate Inza can draw upon the power of humanity as well. A fact that I haven't even factored in because I feel it is unnecessary.

In closing, I made claims and those claims were affirmed by both scans and statements. Anything beyond that now has nothing to do with the actual debate at hand but obfuscation based on personal attacks.

So, you're choosing a specific Fate, right?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You cherry picked. You're clinging to the higher showings not the entire body of work. Operator already corrected you.

I'm starting to think you just like arguing without an actual point to make.

You asked for scans of Fate time manipulating and they were offered.
You asked for scans of fate's durability and they were also offered.

The fact is there are no "low feats" of the entity Fate to offer. All his low showings are about his power not affecting something or him being immobilized or BFR'd. Added to which two of the "low showings WERE amongst the scans i gave (which you clearly didn't even view). I showed two of his losses. In none of these was he ever physically damaged.

As for cherry picking and not using the "whole body of work". I even used feats of durability from the lowest powered version of fate of all ( Eric and Linda). The version of fate who was troubled by parrademons.

Not that any of this is relevent as the version of Fate chosen in this thread effectively only has a single issue to draw feats from and has no low showings at all to utilize for it and that one story is the highest ever showings of Fate in any tale he has ever appeared. That's my whole problem with this battle. It's a cherry picked fate who doesn't have a low feat or showing to use. It can draw on all the showings of Classic fate as that is only PART of the power bestowed on this version but it's really nothing but conjecture.

This version of fate has all the power of Classic, plus the unable to verify or quantify power of the human spirit of all humanity ( the Lords of order and Chaos thing is quite frankly irrelevant since the spirit of man is where they get their power from, it's why the Lords of order had Grey man collect human dreams and desires for them, it's why they sought worship, tap emotions like love hate etc). We can allude to using the creativity with the power Inza nelson showed only as this was before she showed it (unless it's after) since they are "equally' driving the entity with Nabu who is in the helm. Combined with the experience of an ancient entity from before this universe was crated. There is nothing to gauge this version by, we have no low feats, only high and no way of knowing the context or level to which that can be taken.

The only "low Durability" feats that anyone could offer out of the history of Fate would be from Kent's mortal form without the power fo Fate at all from his half helmet days. As he has no magic spells or power and doesn't energy manipulate or have complete control over his own atoms he is limited to Superman level invulnerability and had succumbed to smoke, vacuum and gas and been KO'd because of his only weakness the need to breath.

Originally posted by beatboks
I'm starting to think you just like arguing without an actual point to make.

You asked for scans of Fate time manipulating and they were offered.
You asked for scans of fate's durability and they were also offered.

The fact is there are no "low feats" of the entity Fate to offer. All his low showings are about his power not affecting something or him being immobilized or BFR'd. Added to which two of the "low showings WERE amongst the scans i gave (which you clearly didn't even view). I showed two of his losses. In none of these was he ever physically damaged.

As for cherry picking and not using the "whole body of work". I even used feats of durability from the lowest powered version of fate of all ( Eric and Linda). The version of fate who was troubled by parrademons.

Not that any of this is relevent as the version of Fate chosen in this thread effectively only has a single issue to draw feats from and has no low showings at all to utilize for it and that one story is the highest ever showings of Fate in any tale he has ever appeared. That's my whole problem with this battle. It's a cherry picked fate who doesn't have a low feat or showing to use. It can draw on all the showings of Classic fate as that is only PART of the power bestowed on this version but it's really nothing but conjecture.

This version of fate has all the power of Classic, plus the unable to verify or quantify power of the human spirit of all humanity ( the Lords of order and Chaos thing is quite frankly irrelevant since the spirit of man is where they get their power from, it's why the Lords of order had Grey man collect human dreams and desires for them, it's why they sought worship, tap emotions like love hate etc). We can allude to using the creativity with the power Inza nelson showed only as this was before she showed it (unless it's after) since they are "equally' driving the entity with Nabu who is in the helm. Combined with the experience of an ancient entity from before this universe was crated. There is nothing to gauge this version by, we have no low feats, only high and no way of knowing the context or level to which that can be taken.

The only "low Durability" feats that anyone could offer out of the history of Fate would be from Kent's mortal form without the power fo Fate at all from his half helmet days. As he has no magic spells or power and doesn't energy manipulate or have complete control over his own atoms he is limited to Superman level invulnerability and had succumbed to smoke, vacuum and gas and been KO'd because of his only weakness the need to breath. Fate isn't at Odin's level just like Dr. strange isn't. That is the point. The mages have really high highs is all.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I was not crushed. You have no idea how to actually debate itself. This thread makes that point painfully obvious.

No, it would not since it does not change the durability of Fate and since this isn't his average showing.


Quit ignoring the context. Odin wins.

Beatboks has learned how futile it is to actual reason with an irrational person.

That irrational person being you.

You asked me for "Scans" but since I know your shtick I was aware that it would make no difference. You aren't seeking knowledge but simply attempting to play a game and declare yourself the winner.

Beatboks provided the proof and STILL it isn't enough to quiet your flailing and posturing.

Keep posting though, Quan.

You're going down in flames and yet you're still pouring gasoline on your charred remains.

Originally posted by Golgo13
So, you're choosing a specific Fate, right?

Yes, as per the OP scenario.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Beatboks has learned how futile it is to actual reason with an irrational person.

That irrational person being you.

You asked me for "Scans" but since I know your shtick I was aware that it would make no difference. You aren't seeking knowledge but simply attempting to play a game and declare yourself the winner.

Beatboks provided the proof and STILL it isn't enough to quiet your flailing and posturing.

Keep posting though, Quan.

You're going down in flames and yet you're still pouring gasoline on your charred remains. My point remains steadfast. Odin wins based on superior showings.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Yes, as per the OP scenario.

Gotcha. Who do you got on average?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Gotcha. Who do you got on average?

Classic Dr. Fate would give Odin a battle but he would lose.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Fate isn't at Odin's level just like Dr. strange isn't. That is the point. The mages have really high highs is all.

I've never once stated otherwise. In the use of purely magic Classic Fate would be behind Classic Strange. He becomes the equal of Classic Strange only because he has Superman level physicals ( less speed that is only sonic) and Captain Atom level energy matter manip as well as his magic.

The fact is the version selected here is an amp. The Flash story that introduced it the two lords of Order / chaos that fate was fighting were beyond his power. He needed to increase his power to handle them. He did so by merging with his wife to tap the power of the human spirit and chaos as well as order.

Are these two lords Odin level? There's no way to know because it is there only appearance. We see them warp reality which is a limited view of it and have only their words to say they warped the cosmos ( possibly hyperbole but who knows)

Originally posted by beatboks
I've never once stated otherwise. In the use of purely magic Classic Fate would be behind Classic Strange. He becomes the equal of Classic Strange only because he has Superman level physicals ( less speed that is only sonic) and Captain Atom level energy matter manip as well as his magic.

The fact is the version selected here is an amp. The Flash story that introduced it the two lords of Order / chaos that fate was fighting were beyond his power. He needed to increase his power to handle them. He did so by merging with his wife to tap the power of the human spirit and chaos as well as order.

Are these two lords Odin level? There's no way to know because it is there only appearance. We see them warp reality which is a limited view of it and have only their words to say they warped the cosmos ( possibly hyperbole but who knows) I don't see the amp being enough to deal with Odin who is just too powerful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hyperbole in the sense that being Amon Ra doesn't really prove anything at base value. Just like posting evidence Odin is omnipotent is hyperbole despite it being in the comics themselves.

Can someone make sense of what this man is typing? Just how the phuck did you correlate.

A) Fate conjuring a God.

B) Being Empowered by said God.

= To hyperbole

When its shown, and stated.

Cherry Picking? Fate enters this battle in his most powerful state. Not his average. The comic actually points out as so.

And as such, he took on a pair who are a universal force. Clearly a set of enemies, that are as strong, if not stronger than Odin.

Do you comprehend?