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Mace and the two other Vapaad users replace the initial Jedi strike team on Vitiate. However unlike the first team, these guys have immunity from Vitiate's mental domination.

The fight takes place on the Emperor's space station where the HOT first encountered Vitiate.

Mace easily solos with mental resistance.

LOL.

Is the Emperor's station a dark side nexus? If it's not Mace will solo. Even if this team wasn't completely immune against mental domination Mace would still be too powerful to be mind dominated by Vitiate.

Mace solos. Vapaad kicks any Sith's ass. Being a Sith is Vitiate's biggest weakness here, and his downfall.

There's really no point in having threads of Mace vs any Sith. The Sith will always lose. Windu was the real chosen one.

That's a nice no-limmits fallacy, DP.


Unless you're being sarcastic. mmm.

Depa seems to have a thing for evil dudes, so she would team up with Vitiate. Sora Bulq would lose himself to Vapaad and turn on Mace.

This would then become:

Mace vs Depa, Sora, and Vitiate.

Vitiate wins.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's a nice no-limmits fallacy, DP.


Unless you're being sarcastic. mmm.


Windu's The Chosen One dammit! Can you not see that? He was about to kill the Emperor until the "Wannabe" chosen brat sucker punched him. He trusted that kid!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Windu's The Chosen One dammit! Can you not see that? He was about to kill the Emperor until the "Wannabe" chosen brat sucker punched him. He trusted that kid!


Stop.

What's a Mace Windu? Is this some medieval weapon I've not been told about?

Vitiate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate. Nice set Nephthys!

You too buddy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's a nice no-limmits fallacy, DP.


Unless you're being sarcastic. mmm.

^ This.

Also, not sure why we assume Mace is immune to mind-dominating, but untold amounts of other Sith born under Vitiate's rule, an entire planet, Revan and Malak, and co. were completely helpless.

No limits indeed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You too buddy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
^ This.

Also, not sure why we assume Mace is immune to mind-dominating, but untold amounts of other Sith born under Vitiate's rule, an entire planet, Revan and Malak, and co. were completely helpless.

No limits indeed. And if Revan can't overcome Vitiate drawing on light and dark more esoterically than Vapaad ever could, Windu has no prayer.

Honestly, Vitiate is not Sidious, he's far more empty emotionally - though they both were born of the Dark Side so was Bane and Bane was conflicted; Sidious was not as cool and collective as Vitiate was. Sidious, the one responisble for bringing the Dark Times to the galaxy, wasn't as evil as Vitiate. Now as extremely evil Vitiate must have been to make something like that true - he was just that evil.

By virtue of even being able to evolve those same powers, that Darth Nihilus developed due to the havoc on Malachor V by the Mass Shadow Generator and its sketchy nature, on his own, without ever even experiencing those same effects; proves what Tenebrae was. Vitiate was the single most naturally gifted dark sider in the mythos. His must have been the sinister birth of all.

Vitiate was a scholar first and foremost, Sidious' accurate recognition as "the most successful of all Sith"; was because he was - first and foremost - a politician. lol

This whole group gets mind raped.

Sidious, although less twisted by evil than Vitiate, was far more clever, exploitative, and subtle in gaining political, not esoteric, power. The greatest Sith wasn't so much the greatest because he was most delved into the dark arts, it was because he was a good politician. lol

What Star Wars says about politics, is that it can be bent to be more evil than any force of nature. This translates to the real world.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
^ This.

Also, not sure why we assume Mace is immune to mind-dominating, but untold amounts of other Sith born under Vitiate's rule, an entire planet, Revan and Malak, and co. were completely helpless.

No limits indeed.

The OP said that the team is given resistance to Vitiate's mental powers.

Dark Side Nexus or not, Mace is solo-ing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
^ This.

Also, not sure why we assume Mace is immune to mind-dominating, but untold amounts of other Sith born under Vitiate's rule, an entire planet, Revan and Malak, and co. were completely helpless.

No limits indeed.
Reading the OP is always a good start.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The OP said that the team is given resistance to Vitiate's mental powers.

Dark Side Nexus or not, Mace is solo-ing. Revan's mind wasn't dominated when he faced Vitiate. As I said, his use of the light and dark was more advanced than that offered merely by a lightsaber form. Whereas Vapaad is fed by the thrill of a duel, Vitiate won't be playing Windu's "Jedi dueling games". Mace has no way to defend against the powers Vitiate is inclined enough to wield. This is an era far more knowledgeable and mastered in powers unknown to most of the Clone Wars era Jedi - in the case of Vitiate the powers are over all of their heads. Whereas Revan's knowledge offered some defense against Vitiate's mastery, Windu's will fall comparatively short.

I mean, did you not see what Exar Kun's ghost managed to do not only to Luke Skywalker, who'd faced and come to understand the reborn Palpatine's darkest secrets, but to his whole band of Jedi initiates?

Not only that, but the amount of competition within the Jedi ranks, and combat experience against the Sith, in the TOR era far exceeded anything in the Clone Wars. More than likely, they were superior lightsaber duelists as well.

Vapaad beats anything Dark.

But only Mace's Vapaad. Bulq and Depa's Vapaad won't do anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vapaad beats anything Dark.

Nah.

Vitiate pwns Bulq and Billaba and then overpowers Windu.

He's being sarcastic.

Is he though?

Is he?

I goddamn hope so.

Let's be honest, Vitiate was ****in slow. He couldn't react to his own lighting bolt which was directed back to him by Revan so technically Windu should be able to speedblitz him.

Mace isn't faster than lightning.

Still, Vitiate's combat abilities are somewhat lacking.

Mace's blade moves dozens and dozens of time per second. He will definitely speed blitz Vitiate. Especially with all the darkness and all the Vapaad.

Except it doesn't.

Team.

Mace alone can give Vitiate a run for his money. With the other two they win.

Mace having 3 other people didn't matter with Sidious. I don't see how it will with Vitiate. We've already seen him stomp Bulq and Billaba level characters.

Bulq can probably be easily disposed of. But Billaba was pretty powerful. She gave even Windu a challenge.

Only because she was pretty much given over to the Dark Side, Mace didn't want to kill her, and he was exhausted from having dealt with a mountain of shit in the events of Shatterpoint. The limited darkness she encountered on that planet broke her, to the extent that when Order 66 took place, she was pretty much in a waking coma. Vitiate, mind dominating or no, is a foe well beyond her powers, and that of Bulq. Mace has a chance if his two friends can buy him time with an incredibly well-oiled ploy, but as we've seen in the past, power duels almost always favor the single combatant. Only when it comes down to 1v1 that things come close to level.

Look at Maul TPM, Sidious ROTS, Dooku in both AOTC/ROTS, and so on. Force users usually end up being more of a hinderence to each other than a help. Now, Bulq, Depa and Mace have some value as a team (or at least, Depa and Mace do; they have demonstrated teamwork in the past). The problem is that they must maneuver themselves past the ridiculous Force powers Vitiate can rain down on them while trying to close the gap and kill a guy who can defend against a flamethrower using just his powers.

The same guy who killed an entire Dark Council solo. You know, that guy.

Yes, Windu was holding back. However, he does claim that she is a superior duelist. Perhaps one could attribute that to Windu's humility; yet, when one considers both Windu's statement and Depa's performance, I think it fair to say that at the very least she rivals him.

As for Vitiate, he is not undefeatable even at full power. Revan held his own for a bit and the Exile could have killed him. Taking down the dark council is all well and good, but the feat is frankly far too nebulous to be anything more than a curiosity. Not only do we not know how he did it, but we do not know how powerful those council members are.

Windu often though gives above and beyond credit to duelists, including his own apprentice and Obi-Wan Kenobi. He's surprisingly modest for one of the foremost duelists of his era.

Also, you forget - Revan had mastered both sides of the Force to a degree pretty much unheard of, and for that reason alone he was -almost- able to give Vitiate fits. Revan's exotic mastery of the Force eclipses Mace's more practical and mundane usages of it, and Depa/Bulq have no Force feats on the table to really speak of, so there's that.

Also, I'd rank Revan, Meetra, and Scourge a lot higher than Mace/Bulq/Depa in terms of capabilities and effectiveness against the Sith Emperor. You can dismiss the feat of killing the Dark Council all you'd like, but the idea is that fighting multiple opponents is not an alien concept to Vitiate. In one of the TOR storylines, he pretty much obliterates a few Jedi Knights/Masters with his lightning alone, and his variety and proficiency with the attacks he uses in just his fight in Revan is far beyond that shown by ROTS Sidious or any of his competitors in this thread.

So again, it boils down to them working out a battle plan, in which most will die, to get Mace in the right place to strike. Otherwise, he ragdolls them.

The team owns him. Revan and the Exile could have killed Vitiate if the Exile weren't such a shit Jedi and put attachments over the fate of the galaxy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and his variety and proficiency with the attacks he uses in just his fight in Revan is far beyond that shown by ROTS Sidious

lol

Oh yea, he likes to talk up everyone. Great skills, but I don't think he's the most objective in judging others.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The team owns him. Revan and the Exile could have killed Vitiate if the Exile weren't such a shit Jedi and put attachments over the fate of the galaxy.

That doesn't really apply, since Vitiate wasn't aware of the Exile until she attacked. Its like saying that Sidious is shit since Vader was able to grab him and throw him off a ledge. Those kind of sneak attacks aren't relevant in a face to face combat situation.

Just like you pointing out that Mace's fellow Jedi not helping him against Sidious is irrelevant when Sidious possesses significantly higher speed than Vitiate?

No, since I then pointed out a fight where Vitiate pwns 4 Jedi of similar caliber to Bulq and Billaba. They are irrelevant because of Vitiates vastly superior Force powers, not because of speed.

They are relevant in the way that their deaths would buy Mace more than enough time for him to kill Vitiate.

Which is a huge assumption.

In Force powers, it's a stomp in Vitiate's favor.

HoT vs Vitiate was also a Force Stomp in Vitiate's favor, yet he still lost while on a Dark Side Nexus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't really apply, since Vitiate wasn't aware of the Exile until she attacked. Its like saying that Sidious is shit since Vader was able to grab him and throw him off a ledge. Those kind of sneak attacks aren't relevant in a face to face combat situation.

Red herring. Vitiate saw the Exile and Revan burst into his Throne Chamber, not assessing her as a potential threat was stupid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, since I then pointed out a fight where Vitiate pwns 4 Jedi of similar caliber to Bulq and Billaba. They are irrelevant because of Vitiates vastly superior Force powers, not because of speed.

Those Jedi weren't even close to Bulq and Billaba's level.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Red herring. Vitiate saw the Exile and Revan burst into his Throne Chamber, not assessing her as a potential threat was stupid.



Those Jedi weren't even close to Bulq and Billaba's level.

Whether it was foolish is irrelevant. Vitiate thought she wasn't a threat because she was engaged with the Imperial Guard. In this thread all 3 will be engaging him and he will be focused on all 3. For the record Vitiate still would have defeated Revan, Scourge and the Exile btw.

Yes they were. They've been canonically called among the strongest and most powerful Jedi of the time. Warren was the greatest Jedi warrior in his prime, Leeha was a Jedi who had never known defeat and Tol Braga and the Hero are obviously on pissants like Bulq and Billaba's level. Oh no, but of course PT Jedi are ooooobviously above even the most powerful Jedi of the TOR era. Barf. Puke. You smell.

Lulz.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whether it was foolish is irrelevant. Vitiate thought she wasn't a threat because she was engaged with the Imperial Guard. In this thread all 3 will be engaging him and he will be focused on all 3. For the record Vitiate still would have defeated Revan, Scourge and the Exile btw.

Which is why Scourge saw a future with Revan standing triumphant above the Emperor...



Being called the strongest does not magically put them above Sora Bulq who mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and assisted in creating Vaapad, Depa who's bladework gave Mace Windu a hard time, and Mace Windu himself who defeated Vitiate's superior.

Neither Leeha or Warren have feats. One source saying they are strong does not magically put them above virtually the entire PT.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which is why Scourge saw a future with Revan standing triumphant above the Emperor...

He didn't. :I

He saw a future where the Emperor kills Revan and Meetra then mindrapes him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Being called the strongest does not magically put them above Sora Bulq who mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and assisted in creating Vaapad, Depa who's bladework gave Mace Windu a hard time, and Mace Windu himself who defeated Vitiate's superior.

Neither Leeha or Warren have feats. One source saying they are strong does not magically put them above virtually the entire PT.

1) I didn't say above, I said on their level. Lrn 2 reed, nurd.

2) It kind of does, since an omniscient statement of being at the top of the era is an omniscient assessment of their abilities and so can reasonably be seen to be true. So unless you think that the PT era is just better than the TOR, which I think we all know isn't true, Warren and Leeha would logically be about on par with characters like Depa and Sora who are themselves near the top of their era's.

3) It's actually two sources saying the same thing.

"Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order." - SWTORE pg. 89.

"The most powerful Jedi in the Order" - SWTOR, Jedi Knight Act II loading screen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't. :I

He saw a future where the Emperor kills Revan and Meetra then mindrapes him.

And he sees other visions as well. Like one where they are victorious. The point is we don't know what would have happened had Scourge not betrayed the Jedi.

Really? What chapter?

Pretty sure right around when he decides to kill Revan and the Exile.

Edit: "The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revan's triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form."

Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't. :I

He saw a future where the Emperor kills Revan and Meetra then mindrapes him.

Wrong.




Either way. It doesn't. Its said Agen Kolar was amongst the greatest swordsman in the Order's 25,000 year history. That doesn't magically make Kolar superior to Obi-Wan.



Nothing logical about it. Bulq and Depa are amongst the best of all times, Leeha and Warren are just in their time period.



Let me make this clearer. Feats or GTFO.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Either way. It doesn't. Its said Agen Kolar was amongst the greatest swordsman in the Order's 25,000 year history. That doesn't magically make Kolar superior to Obi-Wan.

I never said it did so ok.

On their level, yes. Being at the top of the TOR hierarchy would put them at least at freaking Bulq and Billaba's level. A better comparison would be if Agen Kolar was in a team said to be made up of the most powerful and strongest Jedi in the Order at the time. Then I would probably put him pretty ****ing close to Obi-Wan, yes.

Also I like that you bring up Kolar as if every single discussion about him doesn't have people throwing around that quote exactly like I'm throwing around the Strike Team quotes. Yourself included as I recall.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nothing logical about it. Bulq and Depa are amongst the best of all times, Leeha and Warren are just in their time period.

Well then maybe you should get your... logic.... glasses checked. B*tch. Yeah.

Being among the best of the TOR era would logically put them amongst the best of all time. You duffer.*

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Let me make this clearer. Feats or GTFO.

http://www.awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/NoDrEvil.gif

Thanks for clearing that up though. I was totes confused on that point.



* Duffer is a great word. I'm totes bringing it back.

Really? I mean, Depa I could maybe see considering the trouble she gave Windu (maybe), but Bulq?



It seems like the top 10-20 CW Jedi are all 'among the best of all time' at times.

What feats does Bulq have again?

Also, when it comes to movjie characters, a significant part of the fan base will always elevate movie characters above EU characters because of bias or an inability to see EU characters as real or powerful as live action characters. I don't know why. But I love the feat wars approach. Background and context be damned, if Person A didn't show any feats, they must be weaker, for the same reason why Manwe can't defeat anyone in Arda; he never showed any feats.

It's not like Depa isn't basically EU character (no lines, in the background), and Sora definitely is!

Originally posted by Q99
It's not like Depa isn't basically EU character (no lines, in the background), and Sora definitely is!

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130129042223/starwars/images/6/62/Depa_Billaba_TPM.png

http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060518003024/starwars/images/5/57/Sora_bulq.jpg

While I grant you that much of their feats are EU, the characters originated in the films. You could make the same argument for a lot of characters in the Clone Wars era. There's a certain bubble which extends around the era that is pure and holy and all that SW is meant to be, and then there's un-attached EU which is apocrypha, including anything that doesn't supplement what GL already made.

While I admit that many of the Clone Wars novels I enjoyed, I don't understand some of the anti-EU bias that permeates this EU sub-forum.

Imo...they take Vitiate...but not easily...rather one Vaapad master dying....
The one who dies is Sora Bulq who either saves Depa or Mace by....
a)Throwing his Sabers at Vitiate...whilst attacking with Force Lightning....
b)Stepping in between Mace,Depa,attempting to deflect or reflect Force Lightning....
giving Mace and Depa a chance to attack from two different sides....

or

c)Mace reflects Vitiate's Force Lightning.....Depa attacks...and Sora catches him off guard...
Vitiate Force repulses both Depa and Sora....but wasn't fast enough to stop Mace's stab
to the heart or sudden decapitation.

if I was writing it...I'll have the Vaapad Masters circling Vitiate like a hungry pack of vornskrs...
attacking in unison...then breaking formation with that good ole bait... lure... ambush... kill method...pack animal style....lion...wolf..or hyena....

and here's a bonus...Yoda guiding them w/battle meditation...after Bulq is either wounded or killed....imo...lol...this is good...I'll come back with another scenario after everyone has replied...
yall came up with another good one....

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said it did so ok.

On their level, yes. Being at the top of the TOR hierarchy would put them at least at freaking Bulq and Billaba's level. A better comparison would be if Agen Kolar was in a team said to be made up of the most powerful and strongest Jedi in the Order at the time. Then I would probably put him pretty ****ing close to Obi-Wan, yes.

Me being the best swordsman of the 21st century does not automatically mean I am one of the best in the history of swordsmanship. In other words there's no point of comparison.
Being the best of a lesser era does not make you better than the relative top of all time.

And no Kolar is not close to Obi-Wan at all.




Except Kolar beat the shit out of Quinlan Vos with ease. Also Kolar's quote is different. He's hailed as one of the best of all time, not the best in just his timeline.




Since when has being the best within a 50 year time span ~ being the best over a 25,000 year time span?

That's like saying because John Ruiz was the best in 2005, he can have a shot at defeating Ali in his Prime.