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Pre-Flashpoint Cheetah
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/CH_zps99b908bd.jpg


vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/VE_zps5b053859.jpg

Val.

Cheetah.

Need t specify at which level Valkyre is at and how she's armed. She could just make Barbera one of her avatars and have her kill herself. Or she could be unable to so much as defend herself from being a woman.

Originally posted by beatboks
Need t specify at which level Valkyre is at and how she's armed. She could just make Barbera one of her avatars and have her kill herself. Or she could be unable to so much as defend herself from being a woman.

Also, what level Cheetah is at.

Val because she's Marvel.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Val because she's Marvel.

Cheetah because she's DC.

And its Golgo's thread. So it will be post-Zoom Cheetah, with all upgrades and poisoned centaur blood claws from Justice, against an injured, tired Val with no sword or steed.

Okay, you're right, Val can't even dream of winning in this thread.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cheetah because she's DC.

And its Golgo's thread. So it will be post-Zoom Cheetah, with all upgrades and poisoned centaur blood claws from Justice, against an injured, tired Val with no sword or steed.


crylaugh

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cheetah.

Cheetah, speed and stats.

So has Cheetah took on a suit of armor similar to the Destroyer before?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cheetah because she's DC.

And its Golgo's thread. So it will be post-Zoom Cheetah, with all upgrades and poisoned centaur blood claws from Justice, against an injured, tired Val with no sword or steed.

Originally posted by Kazenji
So has Cheetah took on a suit of armor similar to the Destroyer before?

She's been as fast as a Flash and easily beat down Wonder Woman before.

Originally posted by KingD19
She's been as fast as a Flash and easily beat down Wonder Woman before.

And when someone else took the power, he used it to take down Superman before.

Cheetah is a mid-herald.

Originally posted by KingD19
She's been as fast as a Flash and easily beat down Wonder Woman before.

So your comparing Wonder Woman with an armor similar to Destroyer?

Yes. Wonder Woman can be downright abysmally strong with her powers in conjunction with her skills. And Cheetah beat her with ease despite her having far more high showings than lows.

Valkyrie doesn't always just walk the dog on Destroyer level opponents.(Was the Destroyer powered with a powerful soul?)

Sin aka Red Skull's Daughter was in control of it and it also wielded all the hammers which were in Fear Itself.

Originally posted by KingD19
She's been as fast as a Flash and easily beat down Wonder Woman before.
Flash stole her upgrade from Zoom. Later she couldn't beat a wonder woman who was nearly killed by Genocide and was barely able to stand.Originally posted by Q99
And when someone else took the power, he used it to take down Superman before.

Cheetah is a mid-herald.
Superman was weakened by Circe's trap. J'onn oneshotted the same cheetah.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Sin aka Red Skull's Daughter was in control of it and it also wielded all the hammers which were in Fear Itself.
How did she escape from it?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Flash stole her upgrade from Zoom. Later she couldn't beat a wonder woman who was nearly killed by Genocide and was barely able to stand.


I'm aware of what happened. They said that's the most likely version Golgo was use. I was pointing out what that version did.

Originally posted by KingD19
I'm aware of what happened. They said that's the most likely version Golgo was use. I was pointing out what that version did.
That was sarcasm from Darksaint.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was sarcasm from Darksaint.

Proof?

In any case, Cheetah wins here. Val is strong, but Cheetah's speed and skills give her the edge there.

Incidentally, whilst googling, I saw this image

Terrible art. Horrible.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2a/a7/e1/2aa7e124d8499518430fd32ed8cc36ff.jpg

The monsters/freaks behind her look better then her.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Proof?

In any case, Cheetah wins here. Val is strong, but Cheetah's speed and skills give her the edge there.

Incidentally, whilst googling, I saw this image

Terrible art. Horrible.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2a/a7/e1/2aa7e124d8499518430fd32ed8cc36ff.jpg
Eww. That's Lifeld level bad.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Flash stole her upgrade from Zoom. Later she couldn't beat a wonder woman who was nearly killed by Genocide and was barely able to stand.

The 'upgrade' was simple training, Zoom doesn't have any ability to give anyone powers. 'Stealing speed' like Wally does doesn't permanently remove speed, and nor was her speed speedforce related anyway.

Remember, when she fought Cheetah after Genocide (and there was some recovery time, and WW has a healing factor, so she wasn't at nil or anything. Heck, she goes on to fight Genocide again the same day!) Cheetah was moving so fast Wondy couldn't touch her and was slicing her apart, until an explosion got Minerva off her feat and allowed Wonder Woman to grab her.

That was still rather impressive speed!





Superman didn't sense him coming due to the trap, iirc that's all the trap did.

The Cheetahs definitely are more offense than toughness. While they have some feats of tanking stuff, like taking Volt's lightning (iirc he's a Firestorm foe), their toughness is lower than their strength. When they can ambush someone, keep the pressure on, and not give them the chance to fight back, they can take on very strong foes, but they can't take it as well as they can dish it out.

Originally posted by Q99
The 'upgrade' was simple training, Zoom doesn't have any ability to give anyone powers. 'Stealing speed' like Wally does doesn't permanently remove speed, and nor was her speed speedforce related anyway. Haha, what? How did she suddenly became faster than Flash in all of two days?

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Zoom_Cheetah/WONDERWOMAN_V2_214-PG19.jpg

We see him removing the upgrade from Cheetah. She never displayed that level of speed again.

She specifically stated that she was too weak to stand up straight. She needed Gauntlet of Atlas in the second round. A nearly dead wonder woman got blitzed by Cheetah, stop the presses.

http://www.amazonarchives.com/Images/ww29p2.JPG

Nope, not at all.





Not according to Phil Jimniez.

Re: The Male Cheetah vs. Superman

Just as a behind the scenes note, I remember how difficult it was to even get that scene in the book. It was an enormous hurdle to convince the editors of the notion that the Cheetah, even god-powered, fast enough to fight Wonder Woman, and magical in nature, could sneak up on Superman and tackle him. I remember having to layer in Circe's magic sphere to help deaden Superman's senses and powers even further, and it was understood that this was a one time deal. They basically held their nose at the idea and let me do it, although I think my own editor at the time understood what such an attack could do for Cheetah, in terms of raising the character's viability as a high-level villain.

For what it's worth, I think it helped that it was a male villain. I don't think the editors ever would have approved of a successful attack on Superman if it was the Barbara Minerva Cheetah, or another female version of her.

Just my memories on the topic.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?296775-Wonder-Woman-s-FOES-Most-Amazing-Feats/page3

Basically that was a very high feat for Cheetah, superman was weakened, his magical weakness was exploited and it wouldn't happen any time again. Congrats, beating a doubly handicapped superman is SOOO good.

She is barely a high meta.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, what? How did she suddenly became faster than Flash in all of two days?

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Zoom_Cheetah/WONDERWOMAN_V2_214-PG19.jpg

We see him removing the upgrade from Cheetah. She never displayed that level of speed again.

We don't QUITE see the upgrade removal. We see the speed removal (I'm a SPEED thief).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We don't QUITE see the upgrade removal. We see the speed removal (I'm a SPEED thief).
And suddenly Cheetah forgot her training in every appearance after WW 214?

Originally posted by abhilegend
And suddenly Cheetah forgot her training in every appearance after WW 214?

Well, speed is always difficult to show, especially at uber levels. Intelligences is another.

After Morrison, Flash didn't do his IMP - does that mean he can't do it anymore?

I have just never seen Flash 'removing training' from someone, that's all. Speed, yes, and she's welcome to give me a snog, but not training.

And I'm usually the first to try and apply exotic Flash Speed Force powers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, speed is always difficult to show, especially at uber levels. Intelligences is another.

After Morrison, Flash didn't do his IMP - does that mean he can't do it anymore?

I have just never seen Flash 'removing training' from someone, that's all. Speed, yes, and she's welcome to give me a snog, but not training.

And I'm usually the first to try and apply exotic Flash Speed Force powers.
He has shown being at infinite mass in Kelly's run, so yes it did. The notion that Cheetah was faster than Flash after WW 214 but never showed it is laughable to the extreme.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He has shown being at infinite mass in Kelly's run, so yes it did. The notion that Cheetah was faster than Flash after WW 214 but never showed it is laughable to the extreme.

He has?

I know he had eyes of near infinite mass when he saved that Korean city.

What time-scale do you assign to powers? So if character A does something, how much of a gap are you going to give to that person before you say, you know what, that person can't do it/doesn't know how to do it anymore?

And does this mean that Flash can take memories from people by touching them? Because you KNOW I'm going to use this lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He has?

I know he had eyes of near infinite mass when he saved that Korean city.

What time-scale do you assign to powers? So if character A does something, how much of a gap are you going to give to that person before you say, you know what, that person can't do it/doesn't know how to do it anymore?

And does this mean that Flash can take memories from people by touching them? Because you KNOW I'm going to use this lol.
Yup, the same.

If the said upgrade was shown to be negated in the very same issue and the character never shows it again? Its no longer viable for the character.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yup, the same.

If the said upgrade was shown to be negated in the very same issue and the character never shows it again? Its no longer viable for the character.

So can Flash steal memories? As he's never been depowered (up until Flashpoint, obv).

And if he were to say fight Deathstroke, he can remove all of Slade's training by touching him?

Slippery slope - not sure you want to have that kinda conclusion.

I simply see it as Flash stole her speed (he's a speed thief, not a training/memory/upgrade thief) and later writers have forgotten about her Zoom training - considering how little she is used, not surprising.

And in this fight, she would get her speed back and decimate Val.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So can Flash steal memories? As he's never been depowered (up until Flashpoint, obv).

And if he were to say fight Deathstroke, he can remove all of Slade's training by touching him?

Slippery slope - not sure you want to have that kinda conclusion.

I simply see it as Flash stole her speed (he's a speed thief, not a training/memory/upgrade thief) and later writers have forgotten about her Zoom training - considering how little she is used, not surprising.

And in this fight, she would get her speed back and decimate Val.
Zoom upgraded her speed, Flash stole the extra speed. Its not so hard to understand. She has never shown such speed again, if she had done it its your job to provide it. Flash has nothing to do with this thread.

srsly

Originally posted by abhilegend
Zoom upgraded her speed, Flash stole the extra speed. Its not so hard to understand. She has never shown such speed again, if she had done it its your job to provide it. Flash has nothing to do with this thread.

srsly

Not doubting he stole her speed. At all. It's there in black and white, from the lips of Wally himself. I'm a speed thief.

BUT, stealing speed is very different from:

Originally posted by abhilegend
And suddenly Cheetah forgot her training in every appearance after WW 214?

Zoom NEVER gave her speed. The speed was always hers. Once she undid the mental blocks that she had imposed on herself, she could have unlimited speed - and Zoom knows a thing or two about speed.

http://i38.tinypic.com/21kb1xe.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
He has shown being at infinite mass in Kelly's run, so yes it did. The notion that Cheetah was faster than Flash after WW 214 but never showed it is laughable to the extreme.

I wouldn't say she was ever faster than Flash, she caught him once, so it's more like she's close to as fast... and she did show it in the fight we were discussing before.

Sure, Wondy wasn't in great shape, but she was still moving around like a blur.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not doubting he stole her speed. At all. It's there in black and white, from the lips of Wally himself. I'm a speed thief.

BUT, stealing speed is very different from: You are just obfuscating the real point. Who cares what Wally said, Cheetah NEVER showed such speed again.



That's a load of BS and you know it, Zoloman was literally insane.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You are just obfuscating the real point. Who cares what Wally said, Cheetah NEVER showed such speed again.



That's a load of BS and you know it, Zoloman was literally insane.

O...K....

So your interpretation is that Zoom lent (or gave) her speed? Which Wally then took?

And your proof is that:
A: Zoom was crazy when he explained Cheetah's powers to her;

B: writers for a minor villain from a minor superheroine's rogue's gallery (let's not split hairs here; outside of the JLA, WW does not get many showings when compared to say, Batman/Superman) never showed it again; and

C: Wally said he stole her speed?

C, no question about it. I totally agree with you. But A/B?

Seriously, go and see how many showings Cheetah has had since she tangled with Flash. Had you said she lost her speed after Circe reverted her back to her human form, then yeah, I can see that. But I am more inclined to say that writers forgot her training in between the speedstealing and the reverting.

Writers forget powers all the time. Don't act as if they respect canonicity 100%, they don't even do it with their main guys, let alone Cheetah.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
O...K....

So your interpretation is that Zoom lent (or gave) her speed? Which Wally then took?

And your proof is that:
A: Zoom was crazy when he explained Cheetah's powers to her;

B: writers for a minor villain from a minor superheroine's rogue's gallery (let's not split hairs here; outside of the JLA, WW does not get many showings when compared to say, Batman/Superman) never showed it again; and

C: Wally said he stole her speed?

C, no question about it. I totally agree with you. But A/B?

Seriously, go and see how many showings Cheetah has had since she tangled with Flash. Had you said she lost her speed after Circe reverted her back to her human form, then yeah, I can see that. But I am more inclined to say that writers forgot her training in between the speedstealing and the reverting.

Writers forget powers all the time. Don't act as if they respect canonicity 100%, they don't even do it with their main guys, let alone Cheetah.
So we agree that Cheetah is no longer at curbstomping-flash-speed level? Good. Because that would be hilarious seeing how both Catwoman and Batman beat her AFTER that showing.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So we agree that Cheetah is no longer at curbstomping-flash-speed level? Good. Because that would be hilarious seeing how both Catwoman and Batman beat her AFTER that showing.

Nu52 Cheetah?

No idea. But that opens up new avenues of opportunity to fight Val, one claw strike and she becomes a Nordic werecheetah thing.

If you're referring to pre-FP, then refer back to my post about writers respecting canonicity, especially with lesser known characters.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nu52 Cheetah?

No idea. But that opens up new avenues of opportunity to fight Val, one claw strike and she becomes a Nordic werecheetah thing.

If you're referring to pre-FP, then refer back to my post about writers respecting canonicity, especially with lesser known characters.
So in pre-FP you're taking just one showing and stating that all the writers forgot about her upgrade? El oh El. She is the arch-nemesis of wonder woman, she is no minor rogue. I would just assume Firestorm is above Flash level speed too, he punked a blitzing Cheetah.

mmm

Its just highballing, nothing else.

This fight really depends. Is the Cheetah with her Zoom powers? And yes, that was a ONE story time upgrade. She literally never displayed any noticeable levels of super speed (At least as far as I know) after the Flash kiss and had a fair number of appearances before Nu52.

Is this Val in her mortal or immortal body? I've gone over this before but she has some really high end portrayals where she's basically a female Thor and Cheetah would need the speed to have a shot.

Currently, she has a mortal body but she can enter a Rage mode where she controls Volcanoes for some reason (?) and goes all Herald level in stats.

I'll be honest, I think anything but the lower end versions of Valkyrie would beat Cheetah sans speed because she's legit pretty terrible. Despite Rucka's worthy efforts to make her a legit threat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Proof?

In any case, Cheetah wins here. Val is strong, but Cheetah's speed and skills give her the edge there.


She's probably faster, but how is she more skilled?

And if you say it's because she can give Wonder Woman a fight......

Originally posted by abhilegend
So in pre-FP you're taking just one showing and stating that all the writers forgot about her upgrade? El oh El. She is the arch-nemesis of wonder woman, she is no minor rogue. I would just assume Firestorm is above Flash level speed too, he punked a blitzing Cheetah.

mmm

Its just highballing, nothing else.

Like I said, a minor villain of a minor superhero (relatively).

Go out and do a straw poll. Ask people to name one Superman rogue. Name one Batman rogue. Then name one WW rogue.

WW's part of the Trinity, after all. Not like I'm asking people to name a Firestorm rogue or even a Flash/GL rogue.

And like I said, after Wally stole her speed, Circe then turned her back into her (admittedly more attractive) human incarnation. That is a better explanation for becoming slower - not that Wally permanently stole her speed or that he stole her training (whatever that means). So a bit of column A (writers, or more likely, writer...can't see that many people working on Cheetah storylines, can you?) and a bit of column B (becoming more human lessened her connection to the Cheetah, so she became slower).

In any case, this is all by-the by. Who do you see winning in this fight?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This fight really depends. Is the Cheetah with her Zoom powers? And yes, that was a ONE story time upgrade. She literally never displayed any noticeable levels of super speed (At least as far as I know) after the Flash kiss and had a fair number of appearances before Nu52.

Is this Val in her mortal or immortal body? I've gone over this before but she has some really high end portrayals where she's basically a female Thor and Cheetah would need the speed to have a shot.

Currently, she has a mortal body but she can enter a Rage mode where she controls Volcanoes for some reason (?) and goes all Herald level in stats.

I'll be honest, I think anything but the lower end versions of Valkyrie would beat Cheetah sans speed because she's legit pretty terrible. Despite Rucka's worthy efforts to make her a legit threat.



She's probably faster, but how is she more skilled?

And if you say it's because she can give Wonder Woman a fight......

Eurgh. Trust you to pick up on the skilled part...I typed that too quickly. I unequivocally state here that I was mistaken when I said Cheetah was more skilled than Valkyrie.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Like I said, a minor villain of a minor superhero (relatively).

Go out and do a straw poll. Ask people to name one Superman rogue. Name one Batman rogue. Then name one WW rogue.

WW's part of the Trinity, after all. Not like I'm asking people to name a Firestorm rogue or even a Flash/GL rogue.

And like I said, after Wally stole her speed, Circe then turned her back into her (admittedly more attractive) human incarnation. That is a better explanation for becoming slower - not that Wally permanently stole her speed or that he stole her training (whatever that means). So a bit of column A (writers, or more likely, writer...can't see that many people working on Cheetah storylines, can you?) and a bit of column B (becoming more human lessened her connection to the Cheetah, so she became slower).

In any case, this is all by-the by. Who do you see winning in this fight?
Valkyrie in all honesty. She has always impressed me with her resume all the way back from her Defenders days.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Eurgh. Trust you to pick up on the skilled part...I typed that too quickly. I unequivocally state here that I was mistaken when I said Cheetah was more skilled than Valkyrie.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Valkyrie in all honesty. She has always impressed me with her resume all the way back from her Defenders days.

As Golgo never said which version of Cheetah this is, would your stance change if it was DCnU Cheetah?

Edit: it's pre-FP. My bad. I am not on fire today....

Originally posted by abhilegend
So in pre-FP you're taking just one showing and stating that all the writers forgot about her upgrade? El oh El.
So we agree that Cheetah is no longer at curbstomping-flash-speed level?

She was never faster than he can reach to begin with. She caught up to him once and immediately ripped out a hamstring.


Cheetah's faster than Wondy/Supes/etc., slower than Flash, but a bad fight for Flash because she's fast enough to hit him and has claws and strength.


As the Genocide-arc scan you yourself posted showed, she's still shown to be really fast when she wants to be.




Firestorm blasted her while she was standing in place talking. Link (probably payback for her ripping him open earlier)

Originally posted by Q99


She was never faster than he can reach to begin with. She caught up to him once and immediately ripped out a hamstring. That's in itself a bad showing for wally.


There is not a single proof that she is faster than superman. Bizarro was too fast for her. She is faster than diana though.


Not in that state.




And?