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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-Out

Fight takes place on Hoth, who wins?

Since I know people are going to go out of the way and claim that Hett beat Anakin, no, that never happened. What happened was Anakin seeing the tuskens that had killed his mother, Hett begging him to come to his senses, Anakin nearly killing Hett, and Hett kicking Anakin away. Hardly a quantifiable feat to rely on.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/LIGHTSABER%20DUELS/Anakin%20Skywalker%20vs%20A%20Sharad%20Hett/1_zps369da24a.png
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/LIGHTSABER%20DUELS/Anakin%20Skywalker%20vs%20A%20Sharad%20Hett/2_zps12b27088.png

Krayt.

I don't even see how this is a fight, one's the most powerful Sith of his time who pioneered techniques that require extreme power in the force, and the other is one who was stomped on by Sids because of the possibility of him eventually getting stronger in the future.




Why are you so focused on Hett? Hett is a *bug* to Krayt. A team of Hetts couldn't beat Krayt.

Krayt is better than Hett in every way.

Since, as I said, people were probably going to claim that. Better getting it out of the way.

Anyway, Maul + Savage vs Krayt would be a better fight. For such a young sith vs a full Dark Lord, help is needed.

But would it really matter?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But would it really matter?

It'd at least make it a better fight.

I think that Maul at least stands a chance, while I don't think he'll win, there are only a HANDFUL, maybe even less, amount of Jedi or Sith that could match his skill in Lightsaber Combat. Which plays a big part in battles like this.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I think that Maul at least stands a chance, while I don't think he'll win, there are only a HANDFUL, maybe even less, amount of Jedi or Sith that could match his skill in Lightsaber Combat. Which plays a big part in battles like this.

Yea, but... Krayt's certainly one of them (he dominates his area, and even as a whelp he was one of the better CW era Jedi), as well as being much stronger in the force.

A top-level force user can get to the level where someone like Maul isn't a threat- Sidious got to the level where Maul *and* Savage together weren't a threat, and while Krayt's lower than Sids, he's not far behind.

According to what is Krayt remotely "close" to Sidious?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
According to what is Krayt remotely "close" to Sidious?

Common sense. The guy wasn't far below Kenobi when he was a century less experience and waaay less powerful.


In the force, he's managed to accomplish things that Sidious and Plagueis pursued but couldn't manage (dark transfer), and Luke Skywalker though he was very powerful even in his armored form, which was not his peak.

He dominates his era about as much as Sidious dominates his... and the Legacy era has plenty of strong duelists, so that's nothing to laugh at.


The best in an era that has Skywalkers and ancient sith popping up, and who's considered powerful by Luke (and I don't see Luke giving that praise to Maul), is going to be formidable in any era. Just because Sidious is 'the best' doesn't mean it's best-by-a-mile, after all.

FOTJ: Apocalypse not so subtly implies that Luke and Krayt were equals.
They fight and kill the bulk of Abeloth's essence together. But it's more than that. They are represented as the paragons of Light and Dark, the champions of Jedi and Sith.

The theme of the whole book is the dualist yin/yang type of philosophy that Light and Dark, creation and destruction are two sides of the same coin, equal and opposite, and that both are necessary and must remain in balance.
Luke and Krayt are embodiments of that in the book, along with Vestara and Ben to a lesser extent.

I'm of the opinion that both Luke and Krayt were stronger than Sidious.

That's... actually a pretty good point, that was definitely the theme.

Just about everything Krayt has done, Sidious has done far better.

Blitzing Imperial Knights? Sidious did the same to 3 celebrated Jedi swordsmiths that each have their own share of feats under their belts.

Killing Yuuzhan Vong with lightning? Sidious reduced the Prophets of the Dark Side into charred skeletons.

Ragdolling Darth Nihl? Sidious has done the same to Maul, who... Has better TK feats than Krayt to begin with.


Krayt being Sidious's peer simply doesn't compute.

Though Sids caught his by surprised, the IKs were ready, were 4 instead of 3, and two of them were actually coming up behind Krayt and done without looking. Every IK we've seen has been master level, and one was the Emperor's cousin.

So, it's not like it's better in all respects, even if the three were better (and only Fisto really had significant feats).



Actually I think Vong are more impressive opponents than Prophets... they're force resistant and dangerous warriors.



Krayt's TK also crumbled stone. But mostly he doesn't use TK, preferring lightning or, even more-so, sabers, so that's not saying much. He did fight against Cade, who's TK much surpasses Maul's.

---


There's also making his presence felt across the entire galaxy, and doing similar exhausted Dark Nest Luke.

Dark Transfer and self-resurrection, also, was the kind of life-and-death control that Sidious was trying to sell that he and Anakin working together could achieve, only Krayt, unlike Sidious, actually achieved it.

So Krayt has a few things he's done better than Sidious, including one of Sidious' primary goals.





Sure it does. Keep in mind, most of those feats don't establish a high boundry, they're mostly thing both of them have done without being pressed hard. And Krayt without a doubt has specific areas where he's better. Likely the inverse is true, but there is no across the board superiority.


Also, here's some stuff from Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse:


"Mara, it's okay," Luke said. "I'm ready. I want to be with you."
"Too bad." He felt his upper body rising as she tried to push him upward. "I don't want to be with you-not here, not yet."
"What?" Luke asked, feeling more confused than resentful. "Mara, I'm wounded...badly. Abeloth took something out of me."
"She wounded him, too." Mara's other hand rose out of the water and pointed past Luke's head, toward the tattooed Sith who had helped Luke kill Abeloth. The stranger was on his feet, limping toward the far shore, with both hands clutched to his chest. "If he can do it, so can you."


"That's ridiculous. Their injuries may be different." This voice came from Luke's other side, sinister and cajoling... and also familiar. "Besides, Sith are stronger. They have the dark side."
"Who is he?" Luke asked, turning to find Jacen looking up from the water on his other side. "You know, don't you?"
"I told you," Jacen replied. "He's the one I saw sitting on the Throne of Balance."


Both were badly wounded by Abeloth, but Krayt stood up first. Mara said if Krayt could do it, so could Luke... and Jacen disagreed.

Jacen thought Krayt was stronger than Luke, and while he could of course be wrong (sith often overestimate the dark vs the light), the only way he could think that is if he felt Krayt was stronger than himself, because he *knows* he's weaker than Luke.

So Caedus felt Krayt was stronger than Caedus at bare minimum, something he could hardly be mistaken with, and rated Krayt as a peer to Luke to boot, which while possibly mistaken, still says something about just how powerful Krayt is.

And that was pre-rebirth Krayt. Not as worn down by the symbionts as he'd become, but still, not quite his maximum either.


Also in Fate of the Jedi:
Luke Agreed. "It's the Jedi and the Sith who must take the place of the Son and the Daughter... and deal with Abeloth."

One of the strong themes of the story is the yin/yang of Krayt/Luke and how they fit in the role of the Ones as peers. And they did contribute roughly equally to the victory against Abeloth.

How can one be a clear peer of Luke and not of Sidious?

Krayt wasn't a clear peer of Luke; Luke was doing the hard shit: keeping Abeloth contained. Krayt's role was critical, but all he was doing was taking advantage of Luke containing her.

Put it another way, who's better? The man who can pin a grizzly bear or the second guy who walks up and shoots it with a tranq gun while the first guy is holding it down?

The first guy. By a lot.

I don't think that's a very accurate comparison.

Abeloth resembling a grizzly bear is pretty funny, though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Krayt wasn't a clear peer of Luke; Luke was doing the hard shit: keeping Abeloth contained. Krayt's role was critical, but all he was doing was taking advantage of Luke containing her.

Put it another way, who's better? The man who can pin a grizzly bear or the second guy who walks up and shoots it with a tranq gun while the first guy is holding it down?

The first guy. By a lot.

Nah, that's pretty much what happened. Luke kept her pinned and bore the brunt of her attacks, Krayt leeched her with his drain. They're not peers and certainly not equals.

More to the point, that Krayt was the first to rise is irrelevant when it's pretty clear Luke was contemplating remaining beyond shadows with Mara's specter.

Originally posted by Unbowed


Best stick to emoticons in lieu of actual arguments.

The Krayt wankage is ridiculous, as usual.

He wins, though.

There's no Krayt wankage. There's only Legacy hate.

...No. It's not wankageLegacy hate to say that Krayt isn't a peer of Luke Skywalker.

What exactly do you define peer in terms of power levels?

Equals, more or less. Krayt isn't fodder for Luke, but Luke is unquestionably the more powerful adept and skilled duelist. Especially as of Apocalypse.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...No. It's not wankageLegacy hate to say that Krayt isn't a peer of Luke Skywalker.

Krayt is a beast, no doubt, but the wanking borders on absurdity. Claiming that 'Krayt=Luke', based on a single showing in which Luke clearly preformed the majority of the force-intensive labor, while Krayt stood by and did his(albeit critical) thing... Is just silly, and imo, proves the exact opposite.

Anyway, Krayt might be able to make Luke work for the win, but Luke would win every time--and solidly so.

Didn't Luke himself indicate that Krayt could serve as his counterpart on the Throne of Balance? Also when Luke telepathically contacted every Jedi in the galaxy and was exhausted, yet when Krayt did the same with Sith, he was better off.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Equals, more or less. Krayt isn't fodder for Luke, but Luke is unquestionably the more powerful adept and skilled duelist. Especially as of Apocalypse.


Peers doesn't mean exact equals, mind.


And Caedus's opinion is, of course, subjective. My view is that Caedus is wrong, Luke is stronger, but from his PoV both are stronger than he is (else he would not call Krayt stronger than Luke), so...

And Krayt was a Sith strong enough to keep pace throughout the Abeloth fight, meaning he was very powerful in Luke's eyes, enough to be a 'balance.'




They both opened up with blasting her with the force.

Then Luke went physical, Abeloth attcked him and hit him in the eye, then Krayt joined in, shoving his hand into her stomach and keeping it there.

She tried to blast both off, and neither released their grip.

Then the draining started, and it was specifically noted it hurt Krayt too, and he still had his hand in her. It was noted the holding and draining was taking energy out of the Jedi/Sith about equally.

Then Abeloth tried to break free again and there was more physical scuffling.


Then Abeloth teleported away... with Krayt's hand still in her.

Then she attacked, got 'em both with black tentacles, Saba Sebatyne killed another part of her elsewhere, and Luke landed the finishing blow.


Or in other words, there was a *lot* more than him standing and draining, he did plenty of physical, ate plenty of attacks, and his draining did involve backlash.

The quote stating Krayt is superior to Luke is purely assumption on your part. They don't mention either fighter, just Jedi/Sith in general. Also, I do not remember Caedus ever mentioning Krayt was superior to himself.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, that's pretty much what happened. Luke kept her pinned and bore the brunt of her attacks, Krayt leeched her with his drain. They're not peers and certainly not equals.
Best stick to emoticons in lieu of actual arguments.
Your analogy was so laughable it did not even deserve an emoticon, let alone a refutation. But since I'm good natured, I'll entertain you.

Luke did not "pin down" Abeloth. You make it sound like the fight was an mmo, with Luke playing the tank and Krayt the damage dealer. No such thing happened. Luke was injured because he failed to defend himself(and so was Krayt), not because of a deliberate attempt to protect Krayt so he could do his draining. There is one instance where the situation can be misinterpreted that way, and we'll get to that.

The reality is that they both did their best to harm her, but Luke's methods of attack were more limited, him being a lightsider and all.
Here are the most relevant fragments from the fight:


We see here Abeloth attacks them both from the very beginning. Krayt is hit first, then Luke.


Again, Luke and Krayt were both attacking Abeloth.


More of the same. Luke isn't "pinning down" Abeloth so that Krayt "can shoot her in the face". He's trying to hurt Abeloth, and the best way he can do that is in close combat. And Krayt joins in. He doesn't just sit back and drain her, he grapples with Abeloth and when she attempts to blow him away, he holds on.


Here we see it's Luke himself that attacks Krayt, and he pushes him away from Abeloth. Now I don't blame him, since he thought that he was being attacked by Krayt, but it's a far cry from your argument.


This is the part that you misinterpret to make your argument. It would appear that Luke is holding Abeloth down so that Krayt can drain her. But is that the case? No. Here is the next fragment:

As you can clearly see, Krayt did not sit back and let Luke bear the brunt of the damage. He is once again side by side with Luke, grappled with Abeloth. He has his hand in her chest!


This is almost the end of the fight. As we can see, it is Krayt's draining that has Abeloth on the ropes(her Force essence gushing out of her like a geyser). He and Luke hurled Force blasts and grappled with her throughout the whole fight, but it is Krayt's draining that made the difference. It's Krayt draining that makes Abeloth desperate enough for her last stand.


This is the end of the fight. Abeloth attacks them both again, and it's Luke that happens to strike the final blow. But as shown above, it was Krayt's draining that brought her to the brink of death.
Still, I'm not taking anything away from Luke. The final blow is this. Even so, not that both Luke and Krayt are "clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence". So even the final blow was a joint effort.

This is a disingenuous argument. Luke was not "contemplating remaining beyond shadows" with Mara.
He thought he was dying, and he was okay with it. That doesn't mean he was contemplating intentionally giving up his life. Jedi don't choose death. They accept it if it comes, but don't want to die.

Q99's point stands. Krayt was the first on his feet, and he didn't need encouragement from anyone. Luke was ready to surrender to death. It was Mara and the thought of Krayt loose on the galaxy.
***

So in conclusion, judging from this fight, Krayt is not only Luke's peer, but it appears he actually performed better than Luke. He did more damage and he was on his feet faster than Luke.

Call me a fanboy if you will, it doesn't matter. I know it's an unpopular notion, but it's written plainly for anyone to see. Krayt did better than Luke against Abeloth. Take it up with Denning if you're upset.

Krayt is Luke's equal now... facepalm

The funny thing is your whole post literally confirms what Tempest was saying. Luke is pinning down Abeloth which gives Krayt the opportunity to drain her. Yes, Krayt was there helping Luke, but it was Luke that was physically overpowering Abeloth to give Krayt the opportunity he needed.

Originally posted by ares834
Krayt is Luke's equal now... facepalm

The funny thing is your whole post literally confirms what Tempest was saying. Luke is pinning down Abeloth which gives Krayt the opportunity to drain her. Yes, Krayt was there helping Luke, but it was Luke that was physically overpowering Abeloth to give Krayt the opportunity he needed.
Okay, point out to me exactly all of the parts in which Luke is "pinning down" Abeloth. Because in all of them Krayt is right there with Luke, also doing the "pinning".

Krayt isn't helping Luke, and Luke isn't helping Krayt. They are both doing their best to hurt Abeloth. Krayt just happens to have a better way than Luke, since Sith are better at that particular aspect than Jedi.

Claiming that Luke was "overpowering" Abeloth and Krayt was just "helping him" is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

Funny that you would accuse me of misrepresenting facts while your "most relevant fragments from the fight" conveniently don't have the parts where we clearly see Luke grappling and restraining Abeloth.

"He pivoted around behind her, swinging one arm around her shoulder and grabbing for her chin, slipping the other arm up under hers and pressing his wrist into her neck. But grappling was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy."

BTW, it was while Luke was doing this that Krayt stuck his hand inside Abeloth to begin draining. Heck, once Kryat begins draining Luke actually threatens to release Abeloth.

Here is another fragment with Luke clearly restraining her: "Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control."

By contrast, there is not one mention of Krayt physically restraining Abeloth (at least none that I noticed). He stuck his hand inside her (giggity), grabbed on to something, and began draining. No mention at all of him physically restraining her.

Originally posted by ares834
Funny that you would accuse me of misrepresenting facts while your "most relevant fragments from the fight" conveniently don't have the parts where we clearly see Luke grappling and restraining Abeloth.

"He pivoted around behind her, swinging one arm around her shoulder and grabbing for her chin, slipping the other arm up under hers and pressing his wrist into her neck. But grappling was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy."

BTW, it was while Luke was doing this that Krayt stuck his hand inside Abeloth to begin draining. Heck, once Kryat begins draining Luke actually threatens to release Abeloth.

Here is another fragment with Luke clearly restraining her: "Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control."
I did not "conveniently" leave those parts out. I felt them out in the interest of keeping the wall of text as short as possible.
The first fragment you posted comes exactly before the 3rd fragment I posted, in which Luke is already grappled with Abeloth. I posted only the relevant parts because otherwise the post would have been much longer. There is no misrepresenting going on.
And every time Luke is "restraining her", Krayt is right there with him.
By contrast, there is not one mention of Krayt physically restraining Abeloth (at least none that I noticed). He stuck his hand inside her (giggity), grabbed on to something, and began draining. No mention at all of him physically restraining her.
This is what you're basing your argument on? That it isn't directly spelled out?
Everytime Luke is grappled with Abeloth, Krayt is also grappled with her. So if Luke is restraining her, isn't Krayt doing the same thing? You don't think shoving his hand in Abeloth's torso is doing anything to restrain her? What is more restraining, a hand around your throat or a hand in your torso.
There is no explicit mention of Krayt trying to restrain her because the fight is not from his POV. We're not reading a script or a play by play of the fight. We are in Luke's head, it's his interpretation of the fight.

Luke also believes Krayt was trying to betray him. Twice. And he attacks him once, and prepares to attack him the second time. Does that make it true? No. Those are just Luke's panicked thoughts, in the fog of combat.

You're grasping at straws here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also when Luke telepathically contacted every Jedi in the galaxy and was exhausted, yet when Krayt did the same with Sith, he was better off.
Krayt was on Korriban at the time he did it.

Yes, which probably helps explain why he was less tired than Luke, but still, it's not something many could do at all.

Originally posted by ares834
Krayt is Luke's equal now... facepalm

According to Caedus, a biased-in-favor-of-Sith source, yes.

But even so, a Sith of Caedus's level, mistaken them for that level, is rather high praise!


If you are good enough that you can be mistaken for the best, even if you aren't, by someone who's impressive themselves, then you're still really, really good.


The scene pretty much blows the idea that Krayt's some normal sith lord out of the water, even though I very much rate Luke higher than him as well.


I mean, a lot of these arguments are just, "Wow, I can't believe (sith I assumed to be lower) is being said to be high,"... but that's not a counter-argument, that's just disbelief, and these are in-universe judgements.




Note also how Luke couldn't physically restrain Abeloth on his own and could only do so when Krayt stuck a hand in Abeloth's gut.


And that's also writing off the attacks Krayt still took even so (he and Luke got attacked about equally!), and the other force attacks he did.


One of the big points of the whole scene was both were absolutely needed. Without the other, each would have been screwed, and that goes both ways. That's the entire narrative focus of the battle.

The thing is many people are outraged that Krayt could 'suddenly' be Luke's equal, but we knew since the end of Legacy that Krayt was at the very pinnacle of Force users.

The Krayt that appeared in Legacy, weakened and on the brink of death because of age and the Vong parasites, was still a very strong Sith lord. Not top tier, but he was on the Vader/Dooku level - though with a weaker stamina.

And after Krayt was resurrected he made this statement:

His power multiplied. That implies that he was twice as strong at the very least, and probably more than that(otherwise why not say "I have returned with my power doubled" or something to that effect).

So you have someone at least twice as strong as Vader or Dooku, throw in the Shatterpoint and Dark Healing abilities and you have probably the strongest Sith to have ever existed(except Vitiate, but I won't open that can of worms).

Originally posted by Q99
According to Caedus, a biased-in-favor-of-Sith source, yes.

Ok... So nothing to go on. Plus Caedus doesn't actually say Krayt is more powerful or even as powerful. He says, "Sith are stronger."

Originally posted by Q99
One of the big points of the whole scene was both were absolutely needed. Without the other, each would have been screwed, and that goes both ways. That's the entire narrative focus of the battle.

Cool?

No one said Luke could have beat Abeloth on his own.

Originally posted by Unbowed
His power multiplied. That implies that he was twice as strong at the very least, and probably more than that(otherwise why not say "I have returned with my power doubled" or something to that effect).

Hyperbole. While Krayt was undoubtedly more powerful, based on his fights he certainly didn't show anything to suggest he truly was multiple times as powerful.

To the Krayt faction: more substance, less substance abuse please.

Q99, as usual, all you've proven is that Krayt isn't fodder (which no one has contended). But he's not equal to Luke or Sidious, who are each endowed with better feats and narrative accolades across the board.

Originally posted by ares834
Ok... So nothing to go on. Plus Caedus doesn't actually say Krayt is more powerful or even as powerful. He says, "Sith are stronger."

Specifically as a reason why he thinks Krayt can do something Luke can't.

He's wrong, Luke manages too, but there's no way to take that 'sith are stronger' without including Krayt in the sith he's talking about.


There is also the matter that Jacen had a vision of Krayt conquering the galaxy during the era that Luke and Jacen would still be around. One Sith victory against Luke was strongly, explictly indicated to be possible.





No, but they have been saying that 'all Krayt did was drain while Luke did the 'hard work' of holder her down,' which is flat-out false. There was plenty of fighting outside the lock and even inside it Krayt did more than just drain, using as much strength as Luke, and taking about as much damage as Luke.





Actually, Krayt doesn't say multiplied anyway. What he does say is he is 'so much more' than he was before.

So, yes.




Originally posted by The_Tempest


To the Krayt faction: more substance, less substance abuse please.

Q99, as usual, all you've proven is that Krayt isn't fodder (which no one has contended). But he's not equal to Luke or Sidious, who are each endowed with better feats and narrative accolades across the board.


Oh please, this is more not counting stuff because it's Legacy.

You cannot tell me that one could even possibly mistake Maul for a threat to Luke.

Back in the clone wars he was a solid sword fighter, when was a padawan he beat Aurra Sing, who almost killed Qui-Gon Jinn. Before he studied under the teachings of one of the sith greaters for decades, before he was physically enhanced by the Vong so he could even survive his symbionts, before he spent a century studying the dark side and fighting constantly with the force until he got to a point to throw off his symbionts, grow to his full power, and achieve self-resurrection, something that both Sidious and Plaguies sought and did not achieve.


Krayt has done multiple force feats that only top tier force users have ever done, galactic mass communication and resurrection.



Darth Krayt dominates an era and beats many strong foes who in turn has significant victories under their belts. He has no problem blitzing groups of masters, and has effectively pushed at least some areas of the dark side further than anyone did before.



'Not fodder'? Darth Azard is not fodder. Darth Stryfe is not fodder. Darth Krayt is a top tier sith.

Originally posted by Q99
when was a padawan he beat Aurra Sing,
Hett lost to Sing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


To the Krayt faction: more substance, less substance abuse please.

That's a very well thought out argument.

Clearly, Krayt successfully achieving something the Banite Sith - including Sidious - always wanted but never got is not substance. Krayt going toe to toe with Abeloth - the 2nd most powerful entity in the SW universe - and hurting her more than Luke ever could is not substance.

Krayt's mastery of the higher Force arts, like resurrection, Dark Transfer, Force Drain, or Shatterpoint doesn't mean a thing. Clearly we need to see him levitating a huge rock before he could be considered top tier.

I mean what kind of logic is that? "Telekinetic feats" make one more powerful than mastering the deepest, most esoteric mysteries of the Force?
Originally posted by Q99
Actually, Krayt doesn't say multiplied anyway. What he does say is he is 'so much more' than he was before.

So, yes.

Well actually he does. It's in Legacy #50 IIRC, when he reaches out to everyone touched by the Dark side.

Jesus H. Christ, Q, feel free to dismount from Krayt's armored codpiece at any time.

I didn't say he wasn't top tier Sith or that he'd lose to Maul. I just take issue with your backhanded arguments and oh-so-subtle insinuations that he's equal to Luke and Sidious. He's not.

Ares has already shredded your arguments and you yourself set fire to the pieces by your quiet concessions that Krayt is on par with Luke based on Caedus's fallible (and ultimately disproven) opinion.

Originally posted by Unbowed
That's a very well thought out argument.

Clearly, Krayt successfully achieving something the Banite Sith - including Sidious - always wanted but never got is not substance.

lol

The Banite Sith wanted to live forever. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, bro, but I guess your masturbatory fetish for Krayt carried you only half way through the last issue of War.

Krayt dies.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt going toe to toe with Abeloth - the 2nd most powerful entity in the SW universe - and hurting her more than Luke ever could is not substance.

Not when Luke was doing the heavy lifting, no.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt's mastery of the higher Force arts, like resurrection, Dark Transfer, Force Drain, or Shatterpoint doesn't mean a thing. Clearly we need to see him levitating a huge rock before he could be considered top tier.

Never said he wasn't top tier; your mancrush is getting the better of you.

Originally posted by Unbowed
I mean what kind of logic is that? "Telekinetic feats" make one more powerful than mastering the deepest, most esoteric mysteries of the Force?

Never said that either, peaches.



Good to know that the deranged boasts of a megalomaniac are to be considered gospel. Hey, guess what? In ROTS, a G-canon source, no less, Palpatine claims to possess "unlimited power!"

Since this is obviously, irrefutably, factually true... Sidious > Abeloth > Krayt.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol

The Banite Sith wanted to live forever. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, bro, but I guess your masturbatory fetish for Krayt carried you only half way through the last issue of War.

Krayt dies.
Spare me. Everyone dies, especially villains. The strongest Sith of the Banite line wanted an ability that allowed them to save themselves or others from death. Krayt got that. Sidious never did. Accept it and move on.

You keep saying, but without any proof. The text is clear as day. Krayt did as much "heavy lifting" as Luke, but he also drained her on top of that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest Good to know that the deranged boasts of a megalomaniac are to be considered gospel. Hey, guess what? In ROTS, a G-canon source, no less, Palpatine claims to possess "unlimited power!"

Except that infinity is a completely abstract term, and obviously unachievable in any context. Saying your power multiplied is a much more specific, grounded statement.

But why am I surprised that the nuances of that are lost on someone who thought the "pinning grizzly bear/shooting it with a gun" analogy was appropriate.

Anakin also said his power was doubled since he last met the Count... which was in Season 4 of TCW.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin also said his power was doubled since he last met the Count... which was in Season 4 of TCW.
That's... unfair, for obvious reasons. I believe the term is retcon.
And at the time that statement was made it wasn't unreasonable at all. Anakin went from being beaten like a chump to defeating Dooku.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Spare me. Everyone dies, especially villains.

Your desperate handwaving Krayt's failures on external literary tropes is hilarious.

Originally posted by Unbowed
The strongest Sith of the Banite line wanted an ability that allowed them to save themselves or others from death. Krayt got that. Sidious never did. Accept it and move on.

lol

Again, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Sidious not only survived physical death (Dark Empire), he learned to save others from it as well (Darksaber).

Originally posted by Unbowed
You keep saying, but without any proof. The text is clear as day. Krayt did as much "heavy lifting" as Luke, but he also drained her on top of that.

Not really, no. As Ares pointed out, the text indicates that Luke did most of the restraining. So while the text is indeed as clear as day, it might be obfuscated by your refusal to remove your head from Krayt's cavernous ass crack.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Except that infinity is a completely abstract term, and obviously unachievable in any context. Saying your power multiplied is a much more specific, grounded statement.

Ah, so a deranged boast from a megalomaniac is only gospel if it is slightly more believable than another deranged boast from another megalomaniac? Nice shuffling of the goalpost there. You'll fit in nicely with the rest of the Krayt faction.

Originally posted by Unbowed
But why am I surprised that the nuances of that are lost on someone who thought the "pinning grizzly bear/shooting it with a gun" analogy was appropriate.

Well we can't all conjure such brilliant arguments as "WELL OF COURSE KRAYT DIES HES THE BAD GUY DUHHH."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your desperate handwaving Krayt's failures on external literary tropes is hilarious.

Yet nevertheless true.

Again, you are missing the point(shocker). Sidious and Plagueis both wanted the ability to perpetuate themselves forever. Plagueis wasn't able to discover the secret before Sidious disposed of him, and Sidious didn't even came close to his master's talent for midichlorian manipulation, so Sidious was forced to use an inferior alternative, the Essence Transfer. And it was obviously less than ideal, since Sidious came back batshit insane and his clones were degrading very fast.
So yes, Krayt achieved an ability that the great Sidious, the one who supposedly "mastered every technique and could create new ones at his leisure" never did.
As for the second part of your post, I haven't read Darksaber, so I'll concede that point for the moment.


The text doesn't indicate such a thing, and Ares is wrong.

It isn't "slightly more believable". Saying you have "UNLIMITED POWAH!" is an incredibly absurd and fallacious statement. It can't possibly be true.
There is nothing wrong with saying you multiplied your power, especially since we know Sidious himself came back from death stronger in Dark Empire. The two statements aren't even in the same ballpark.
And Krayt is far less of a megalomaniac than mr. "I'll be immortal and consume all life in the universe forever".

Well we can't all conjure such brilliant arguments as "WELL OF COURSE KRAYT DIES HES THE BAD GUY DUHHH."
Indeed we can't, and what a shame it is. I expected more from the brilliant mind behind "cavernous ass crack" and "armored codpiece".
We all can't use ill-conceived attempts at humor in lieu of logical arguments and facts when debating.

This is getting interesting.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/beavis-buthead-popcorn.gif

Originally posted by Unbowed
Yet nevertheless true.

And completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Again, you are missing the point(shocker). Sidious and Plagueis both wanted the ability to perpetuate themselves forever. Plagueis wasn't able to discover the secret before Sidious disposed of him, and Sidious didn't even came close to his master's talent for midichlorian manipulation, so Sidious was forced to use an inferior alternative, the Essence Transfer. And it was obviously less than ideal, since Sidious came back batshit insane and his clones were degrading very fast.
So yes, Krayt achieved an ability that the great Sidious, the one who supposedly "mastered every technique and could create new ones at his leisure" never did.

facepalm

Right, and Sidious could solo fleets and tear the surfaces off worlds... something neither Krayt nor Abeloth have demonstrated. The fact that Krayt demonstrated an ability Sidious didn't is not only irrelevant to the discussion but was something never contested by anyone here. All that was said is that Sidious demonstrates superiority in feats and accolades, which is true, and doesn't preclude the idea that Krayt is more proficient in other areas.

Originally posted by Unbowed
The text doesn't indicate such a thing, and Ares is wrong.

lol

I'll leave that to you and the God of War.

Originally posted by Unbowed
It isn't "slightly more believable". Saying you have "UNLIMITED POWAH!" is an incredibly absurd and fallacious statement. It can't possibly be true.
There is nothing wrong with saying you multiplied your power, especially since we know Sidious himself came back from death stronger in Dark Empire. The two statements aren't even in the same ballpark.
And Krayt is far less of a megalomaniac than mr. "I'll be immortal and consume all life in the universe forever".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/BluesStringer/Point_over_your_head.jpg

Doesn't matter, peaches. The point is that, for all we know, it could be the idle boasts of a deranged loon. Sidious didn't return stronger postmortem, that was the result of his studies on Byss. And even if War!Krayt is stronger than Legacy!Krayt & Apocalypse!Krayt (which was, again, never contested), you have no way of remotely quantifying how much more powerful he was than his earlier incarnations, as the adjective "multiplied" could be exaggerated.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Indeed we can't, and what a shame it is. I expected more from the brilliant mind behind "cavernous ass crack" and "armored codpiece".
We all can't use ill-conceived attempts at humor in lieu of logical arguments and facts when debating.

Nah, those would be jabs and taunts in the midst of tearing your argument asunder with my ferocious Claws of Logic (+4 attack bonus). excellent

And even if you didn't like it, it's still better than an unattached emoticon.

But, we know he was very strong back as a padawan and knight.

Then he got a major about of new force training, and grew more powerful. Then he got literally physically modified into being stronger. Then he got a lot more experience and even more practice- and at this point he was able to contribute as much to a fight against a powerful foe as Luke Skywalker did- and, though he then got more sick, he eventually got a big boost over that level.


Just how many tiers can there be between "Powerful CW Jedi Master," and ""Actual top tier ala Palps and so on"? Because Krayt's moved up at least three.





No, Sharad Hett, his father, lost to Sing.

A'Sharad Hett beat her. Actually, he fought her twice- first time, he lept in and disarmed her after she stabbed Sharad, he grabbed her by the neck, and hesitated before killing her, giving her the opportunity to escape.

Second time, as a knight, he fought her and knocked her unconscious.





You're dodging the point, namely he succeeded in a technique they did not, in an area they were studying. This technique did not make him unkillable, but it was an area where he surpassed them, and it was a powerful technique offensively as well as it's resurrection properties.

Even Palpatine, who knew essence transfer, had his bodies constantly degrade, which Krayt could've healed easily with his power.

And did you miss the part of War where they literally threw his body into the sun because he would come back otherwise? With Cade wrestling with his spirit with the help of Luke's spirit the whole time?

Originally posted by Q99
Second time, as a knight, he fought her and knocked her unconscious.
He hit her chin with his lightsaber after she had, and very convincingly might I add, beaten him. It was a cheap way to win, just like Kenobi in TPM.

Originally posted by Q99
But, we know he was very strong back as a padawan and knight.

Then he got a major about of new force training, and grew more powerful. Then he got literally physically modified into being stronger. Then he got a lot more experience and even more practice- and at this point he was able to contribute as much to a fight against a powerful foe as Luke Skywalker did- and, though he then got more sick, he eventually got a big boost over that level.


Just how many tiers can there be between "Powerful CW Jedi Master," and ""Actual top tier ala Palps and so on"? Because Krayt's moved up at least three.

Not sure, but one could present the argument that there are many. Either way, no one here has actually disputed the idea that Krayt isn't among the upper echelons.

Originally posted by Q99
You're dodging the point, namely he succeeded in a technique they did not, in an area they were studying. This technique did not make him unkillable, but it was an area where he surpassed them, and it was a powerful technique offensively as well as it's resurrection properties.

Even Palpatine, who knew essence transfer, had his bodies constantly degrade, which Krayt could've healed easily with his power.

And did you miss the part of War where they literally threw his body into the sun because he would come back otherwise? With Cade wrestling with his spirit with the help of Luke's spirit the whole time?

Uh, no, I'm not dodging anything. In fact, I already acknowledged that Krayt demonstrated abilities Sidious/Luke didn't... but then I continued, pointing to the painfully obvious fact that that doesn't change the latter characters' general, broad superiority to Krayt at all.

The benefit of arguing for Luke and Sidious, who are infinitely more popular and important characters to the mythology, is that I have a wealth of accolades and feats to draw from. No dodging is necessary; I can simply steamroll the opposition.

Using Abeloth is not going to convince anyone that Krayt is more powerful or equal to Luke or Sidious. We all know her being "twelve times" more powerful than Luke didn't work out quite well during fights, so your comment 'the 2nd most powerful entity' doesn't count for much.

Krayt is good--Possibly even greater than Lords like Maul--But him being on Luke's or Sidious's level is absolutely ludicrous.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Right, and Sidious could solo fleets and tear the surfaces off worlds... something neither Krayt nor Abeloth have demonstrated. The fact that Krayt demonstrated an ability Sidious didn't is not only irrelevant to the discussion but was something never contested by anyone here. All that was said is that Sidious demonstrates superiority in feats and accolades, which is true, and doesn't preclude the idea that Krayt is more proficient in other areas.
First of all, you just contested it. Don't backtrack now.
Secondly, I never claimed the Dark Transfer puts Krayt above Sidious. I merely provided a perfect example of the "substance" you were asking for. You claimed there was no "substance" to the argument that Krayt was Sidious' peer.
Yet Sidious devoted his efforts towards finding an ability similar to Krayt's and came up short. What is that if not substance?

Like it or not, Krayt is at the very least Sidious' equal. Sidious has the Force Storm, Krayt has the Dark Transfer. Neither ability puts one above the other, those are simply aplications of each character's respective power. I'm pretty sure Krayt could learn the Force Storm if he was taught by Sidious, and Sidious could learn the Dark Transfer if he was taught by Krayt.


Doesn't matter, peaches. The point is that, for all we know, it could be the idle boasts of a deranged loon. Sidious didn't return stronger postmortem, that was the result of his studies on Byss. And even if War!Krayt is stronger than Legacy!Krayt & Apocalypse!Krayt (which was, again, never contested), you have no way of remotely quantifying how much more powerful he was than his earlier incarnations, as the adjective "multiplied" could be exaggerated.

But they are not idle boasts, are they? After he came back Krayt was much stronger than previously, in body and in mind and in the Force. Cade was previously able to hold his own against Krayt. Yet in the last issue of War Krayt defeated a much stronger Cade without much effort.

Like it or not there is concrete evidence that Krayt came back much stronger, so his "multiplied" claim is not as far-fetched as you desperately want to imply.

Originally posted by Petrus
Using Abeloth is not going to convince anyone that Krayt is more powerful or equal to Luke or Sidious. We all know her being "twelve times" more powerful than Luke didn't work out quite well during fights, so your comment 'the 2nd most powerful entity' doesn't count for much.
I don't know why everyone forgets this, but before Apocalypse Luke - or anyone else - never fought Abeloth proper. He fought her avatars. Him defeating her avatars is impressive, but Ben and Vestara, Boba Fett and Saba Sabatyne did the same.
The 'true' Abeloth can only be fought Beyond Shadows, like Krayt and Luke did. Even so, while they fought the bulk of her 'essence', they didn't fight her at full power, as she still had avatars in the real world.

How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul.

Lol WHAT? That's your justification?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul.

You do realize power in that realm is based on power in the force, right?


And that he portrays great strength outside (and in fact his body was enhanced by the Vong)? And all kinds of powerful force abilities, including ones that Sidious would salivate over? And has tons of saber feats?

Regardless, the main attack Krayt used in that fight was draining Abeloth and weakening her. If Krayt has this force drain technique outside that realm, he's never been shown to utilize it anywhere else in combat. Obviously because it requires him to make some kind of physical contact with his opponent, unless he was just stupid during the fight with Abeloth and wanted to feel on her. So you guys can keep harping on that fight all you want, but at least explain how it'll help him here.

That said, Krayt doesn't hold a candle to Sidious in sabers. Sidious has better strength feats, far greater speed feats, and better accolades (stated to be skilled in all forms of saber combat). Sidious wouldn't speed blitz Krayt, but he'd wreck him pretty bad in sabers.

In a force contest, well I'm pretty sure you know who is the more powerful dark sider, which is why you and everyone else who keeps arguing in favor of Krayt keeps harping on Krayt's healing ability with dark transfer, which has absolutely nothing to do with combat. Maybe Sidious didn't master the ability to keep his body from dying, but he was definitely the dark lord that was harder to get rid of. Once Krayt's body was destroyed, he was gone for good. Sidious had his body destroyed about three times, but it didn't stop him from coming back.

Ms.smith, how about you go back to the battle bar and do what you do best: arguing and worrying about gays, because we all know it affects your life some type of way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless, the main attack Krayt used in that fight was draining Abeloth and weakening her. If Krayt has this force drain technique outside that realm, he's never been shown to utilize it anywhere else in combat. Obviously because it requires him to make some kind of physical contact with his opponent, unless he was just stupid during the fight with Abeloth and wanted to feel on her. So you guys can keep harping on that fight all you want, but at least explain how it'll help him here.
The draining technique doesn't require physical contact, as evidenced by the fact that Luke was also affected by it, and Krayt didn't have his hand in Luke's stomach.

Krayt got up close not because he wanted to "feel her up", but for the same reason Luke did: he wanted to kill her, and he couldn't do it by himself. Staying at a distance wouldn't do anything to help Krayt, because Abeloth would kill Luke and then kill him. That was the point of the whole fight, Luke and Krayt needed each other, just like the Son and Daughter, just like Light and Dark are needed to maintain the balance in the universe.

Sidious is probably better, but no one is getting "wrecked". Force users on that level don't wreck each other. Why? Because lightsaber ability is intimately tied with the Force. Virtually anyone we ever see that is very powerful in the Force( Sidious, Yoda, Vader, Dooku, Exar Kun, Bane etc.) is also a very good duelist.


No, we don't know. Krayt's "Force essence", as evidenced and implied in Apocalypse, is on the same level as Luke's. And this was Luke decades after Dark Empire happened. So that alone puts Krayt on at least an even keel with Sidious.
And the Dark Transfer is absolutely useful in combat. That's how Krayt killed(and brought back) Cade in the last issue of Legacy: War.
The Shatterpoint ability alone - which is tied into the Dark Transfer - is an incredible advantage in combat, as shown by Mace Windu.

Maybe Sidious didn't master the ability to keep his body from dying, but he was definitely the dark lord that was harder to get rid of. Once Krayt's body was destroyed, he was gone for good. Sidious had his body destroyed about three times, but it didn't stop him from coming back.
This is funny, because this also doesn't have anything to do with combat. Double standard?
Also, Sidious was able to come back because he had prepared clones of himself. Krayt took no such contingencies, because he didn't need to. Good for Sidious I guess, but it has nothing to do with power.

Why do that when I can contribute to your years of embarrassing arguments here? We all have a good time with them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

That said, Krayt doesn't hold a candle to Sidious in sabers. Sidious has better strength feats, far greater speed feats, and better accolades (stated to be skilled in all forms of saber combat). Sidious wouldn't speed blitz Krayt, but he'd wreck him pretty bad in sabers.

Bah, that's easy to contest. Krayt *dominated* during his era. He killed 4 master-level foes while surrounded and not even looking at two of them, and that's not at his peak.


Sidious has multiple peers during his time, both Windu and Yoda hold their own against Sids just fine, and considering we know Dooku can hold off both of those in sabers he's not far behind either.


In Dark Empire, Luke beats him and slices his hand off.


Obviously, it is not some unheard of thing to match Sidious in sabers, and the idea that even someone as powerful in his era as Krayt- and even aside from his symbionts he was physically enhanced by the Vong, mind you- can't hold his own is kinda silly.


Unless you think that no-one outside the CW/Rebellion era can get to the Windu etc. level of skill, I don't think there's much argument for Sidious 'wrecking him' in sabers, especially with all of Krayt's feats.




Except he's used it in combat, to kill.


And the various powers show Krayt has massive amounts of power in the dark side. Even a non-combat power, like galactic level telepathy, shows just how much power someone has in the force, and power in the force matters in a contest.

He has purely combat powers like shatterpoint and force absorption (one of approximately 5 characters in SW who's been seen to catch lightning bare-handed, and Sidious isn't one of those) too.





And if he had Dark Transfer, his last one wouldn't have pretty much fallen apart under him. That's the kind of stuff DT can heal.


The main point is, this is something Sidious spent a lot of effort on and Krayt still managed to do even better in force skills in that area.

Krayt being "unmatched" in his era in no way proves that he's a peer of Sidious, dude. Seriously, off the codpiece. Get off.

Originally posted by Unbowed
First of all, you just contested it. Don't backtrack now.

Uh, no, it was never contested.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Secondly, I never claimed the Dark Transfer puts Krayt above Sidious. I merely provided a perfect example of the "substance" you were asking for. You claimed there was no "substance" to the argument that Krayt was Sidious' peer.
Yet Sidious devoted his efforts towards finding an ability similar to Krayt's and came up short. What is that if not substance?

Since the claim was that Krayt is more powerful than Sidious, your "substance" is looking more like "substance abuse." Krayt's mastery of the 'dark transfer' technique in no way suggests superiority over Sidious in the general sense.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Like it or not, Krayt is at the very least Sidious' equal.

Like it or not, that claim is woefully unproven.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Sidious has the Force Storm, Krayt has the Dark Transfer. Neither ability puts one above the other, those are simply aplications of each character's respective power. I'm pretty sure Krayt could learn the Force Storm if he was taught by Sidious, and Sidious could learn the Dark Transfer if he was taught by Krayt.

Cool story, bro.

Sidious has greater feats and accolades to his name than does Krayt.

Originally posted by Unbowed
But they are not idle boasts, are they? After he came back Krayt was much stronger than previously, in body and in mind and in the Force. Cade was previously able to hold his own against Krayt. Yet in the last issue of War Krayt defeated a much stronger Cade without much effort.

Like it or not there is concrete evidence that Krayt came back much stronger, so his "multiplied" claim is not as far-fetched as you desperately want to imply.

All that proves is that Krayt came back stronger... which no one contested. All that's being contested is taking Krayt's words as literal truth. He can come back stronger without being twice as strong, let alone with his powers multiplied.

Curious: where offensive prowess(as is pertains to a battle/versus setting) is concerned, how is the ability to conjure a Force Storm not above the ability to use Dark Transfer?

That one is really making me scratch my head, because it makes no logical sense. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding..?

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Krayt being "unmatched" in his era in no way proves that he's a peer of Sidious, dude. Seriously, off the codpiece. Get off.

If you're accusing someone of being on a star wars character's codpiece within just a few pages of interaction, your lack of self awareness becomes evident considering the amount of time you've spent "fellating" Sidious. Just saying.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jon-Stewart-saying-Oh-Snap.gif

No, Q and I have danced this little jig before, sweetheart. And his reasons for putting Krayt on par with Luke and Sidious are as weak now as they were then.

Now, if you're man enough to defend your armored boytoy, feel free to do so at any time. Otherwise, continue to ask me stupid questions and flee instead of actually contributing.

But your nerd!rage that I'm picking on Krayt is really inappropriate. No one cares. Just saying.

Originally posted by Galan007
Curious: where offensive prowess(as is pertains to a battle/versus setting) is concerned, how is the ability to conjure a Force Storm not above the ability to use Dark Transfer?

That one is really making me scratch my head, because it makes no logical sense. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding..?

Debatable. Luke apparently was afraid of his students inadvertently making one, so he started his academy way out in Yavin IV. If the technique was so powerful and exclusive, his fears seem unfounded. Then again, using a Force 'apex', several students channeled the Force into Dorsk 81 and he did this:

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060620020709/starwars/images/f/f1/Dorsk_81_Death.JPG

So the power creep was already in place.

Wookiepedia suggests that the Emperor's Dark Side adepts could use lesser versions too, although they couldn't control them and the Emperor by comparison had some measure of control. I suspect it's a powerful esoteric ability, but it's not uncommon for some Force users to be more powerful in some areas and weaker in others, or for a lack of knowledge in one to make others have a better variety of rare abilities. Yaddle, for example, mastered Moricho, a technique Yoda and Mace neither used nor appeared to have mastered, but both of them could beat her ass in combat.

The only nerd rage that exists is yours when someone dares to spend multiple pages on a character NOT named Sidious. Once again....Self Awareness.

Originally posted by Galan007
Curious: where offensive prowess(as is pertains to a battle/versus setting) is concerned, how is the ability to conjure a Force Storm not above the ability to use Dark Transfer?

That one is really making me scratch my head, because it makes no logical sense. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding..?


Oh, I agree that Force Storm... or rather I should say, DE Palpatine's force storm, there are lesser force storms, are better.



But when discussing Palps in general, I generally assume original-recipe rather than the clone (and Clone is, I shall note, still *very* defeatable in personal combat, as Luke showed! A Force storm is a big production that takes time to build and he can *barely* control, besides from that he's much as RotJ Palps), and second, they're different areas of the force.


Dark Transfer is the highest end medical/immortality application of the force we've seen. In that specific area of force skills, Krayt is the best.

Different force users are better at different things, and that's the area where he stands on the summit, just as Clone Palpatine stands at the summit of being able to create giant force storms.


Krayt announcing his presence to every dark sider in the galaxy in the force, is something that while I assume Sidious could do, is something that most sith can't, it's a very high-end ability and I don't think Dooku could. Luke did something similar and he was tired out by it (though Krayt was on Korriban, strong in the darkside, at at the time).




Originally posted by The_Tempest

No, Q and I have danced this little jig before, sweetheart. And his reasons for putting Krayt on par with Luke and Sidious are as weak now as they were then.

Here's the thing: Your arguments are dismissing arguments as "irrelevant". They're pretty weak in the actual counter-arguments ('oh, sure, he may dominate everyone in his era, and they may in turn have tons of combat feats, and include a Skywalker who hunts sith for a living, but that doesn't mean that he can stand up to other strong people!').. and have been responded to anyway (Legacy's got more crossover with other eras of note than pretty much any other, Luke says this, Caedus says that, Krayt himself was already solidly high in the B-list back when he was a fraction of his final self, etc. etc.).

A half-dozen reasons to counter your low-balling.


Even recently, I have brought in new data, quotes, and in-universe examples, in addition to prior stuff.


People in-universe, including Luke and Caedus, view him as massively powerful.


Heck, you want to view Sidious as stronger? Great. So do I, just not by much (There's a difference between saying who's stronger, and assuming they're in a whole other tier... when they've got multiple peers even in-era, and there's a character who has met both of them and regards both as dangerous threats).


You want to rate Maul better? To that I just laugh. He's only the third most powerful Sith of his time. He was totally eclipsed to a true top-tier sith like Sidious, or even Dooku. Krayt, on the other hand, was actively and directly shown to have high-end power when directly next to a person of high-end power and in the opinion of another very powerful sith.


Your arguments are too transparently based on bias, and rather large bias at this.




We've done this song and dance, but it's your moves that are weak, while I'm bringing up powers, abilities, and in-era rankings.

You can defend your side well enough, but your reasoning for downgrading the abilities of the opposition don't hold up.




Heh, 'man.'

Anyway, it says a lot that you don't view bringing up examples of force powers and feats and in-universe status as defending, but you consider dismissing those same things for flimsy reasons- which in turn have been shot down in this very thread by multiple people- to be a good counter argument.

How is Krayt better at Dark Transfer than Cade?

Originally posted by Unbowed
The draining technique doesn't require physical contact, as evidenced by the fact that Luke was also affected by it, and Krayt didn't have his hand in Luke's stomach.


Most logical explanation is that Luke was affected by the drain because he was connected to Abeloth while he was wrestling with her. Making 'physical' contact as spirit forms is not the same as making contact as actual physical beings, as evident when Brand's spirit connected with Sidious's spirit; Brand stated that he felt like he was being eaten alive by the dark side, not because he fell to the dark side, but because his spirit was connected to Palpatine's.


Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt got up close not because he wanted to "feel her up", but for the same reason Luke did: he wanted to kill her


I know he wanted to kill her and he played a major role in killing her by draining her and weakening her. Why did he need to get up close to her in order to do that if he could have drained her at a distance?


Originally posted by Unbowed
and he couldn't do it by himself. Staying at a distance wouldn't do anything to help Krayt


Why not? If he could utilize drain at a distance as you claim, then why would the result be any different?

So I'll ask one last time, how will Krayt's fight with Abeloth as a spirit form help him here?



Originally posted by Unbowed
Sidious is probably better, but no one is getting "wrecked". Force users on that level don't wreck each other. Why? Because lightsaber ability is intimately tied with the Force. Virtually anyone we ever see that is very powerful in the Force( Sidious, Yoda, Vader, Dooku, Exar Kun, Bane etc.) is also a very good duelist.


What level is Krayt on? He certainly hasn't did anything in the comics to suggest that he is anywhere near the level of Sidious. Sorry, but being powerful in the force doesn't mean you can contend with Sidious in a saber duel. Sidious wrecked two powerful force users in sabers, both at the same time and individually (Maul, Savage), while he was toying around and not even trying to kill one of them.

Sidious has blitzed three council members, all of which have hype and/or feats to their name to suggest that they were some of the best swordsmen of all time. Fisto himself is without a doubt a peer of Kenobi, being able to casually handle Grievous. Kolar has stomped Vos almost as easily as Dooku has. And Tiin, while he lacks feats, is suggested in at least two sources to be one of the most powerful force users of his time--one of the sources being a comic strip tie-in to the older CW cartoons, which implied that his sheer raw power may have been greater than even Windu's. And while some of the feats in the older CW cartoons are arguably exaggerated, that doesn't mean we should ignore the implication: that Tiin was among one of the most powerful force users of his time. Yet all three of the masters mentioned all together were fodder for Sidious in a duel despite Windu being alongside them. Krayt has done absolutely nothing that compares saber-wise.


Originally posted by Unbowed
No, we don't know.


Yeah, we do. If we compare their feats, Palpatine beats him by miles. If we go on accolades, Palpatine has him beat there pretty solidly too.



Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt's "Force essence", as evidenced and implied in Apocalypse, is on the same level as Luke's.


Where is it evidenced at, and where has it been implied? Helping Luke bring down Abeloth by utilizing a technique against her--one which weakened her--that Luke couldn't use on her, does not put him on the same level as Luke. Luke needing his help does not make him a peer of Luke's either.

As far as Luke offering to share the throne of balance or whatever, well, that's obviously something Luke wouldn't offer Sidious, as Sidious existence and his deep connection to the dark side was a threat to the force. His very death is what brought balance to the force and defused the dark side throughout the galaxy, which was the very reason the force itself wanted to get rid of Sidious. So I guess since your going to make a comparison between Krayt and the son, I'll go ahead and make one between Sidious and Abeloth.



Originally posted by Unbowed
And the Dark Transfer is absolutely useful in combat.


Didn't say it didn't, but you guys keep harping on it's usefulness in healing (which has nothing to do with combat), and saying "well Sidious couldn't use this on his body, but Krayt could."



Originally posted by Unbowed
That's how Krayt killed(and brought back) Cade in the last issue of Legacy: War.


Krayt didn't kill Cade in the last issue. Cade was merely on the verge of death.


Originally posted by Unbowed
The Shatterpoint ability alone - which is tied into the Dark Transfer - is an incredible advantage in combat, as shown by Mace Windu.


Krayt is not Mace, and it'd be kinda hard to use shatterpoint in the middle of combat when your opponent is overwhelming you.


Originally posted by Unbowed
This is funny, because this also doesn't have anything to do with combat. Double standard?


I know it doesn't. I just brought it up to kill all the noise about Krayt being able to heal himself. I find it more impressive that one can come back after having his body destroyed.


Originally posted by Unbowed
Also, Sidious was able to come back because he had prepared clones of himself.


And Krayt had Cade around to learn about this dark transfer ability from, Sidious did not.

For the record, Sidious didn't have clones in handy during his first death on the Death Star, he had to survive and roam around bodiless as a spirit and then possess one of his hands in order to get to his clones.


Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt took no such contingencies


There is no proof that Krayt could have done it anyway, and if he could, why didn't he just survive as a spirit and possess one of his minions or something. I mean, there were plenty of other sith that were able to attach their spirit to something. Not Krayt. Once Krayt's body was destroyed, he was gone for good.



Originally posted by Unbowed
Good for Sidious I guess, but it has nothing to do with power.


And good for Krayt I guess, but it has nothing to do with power.



Originally posted by Ms.smith81992
Why do that when I can contribute to your years of embarrassing arguments here? We all have a good time with them.


But you're not contributing here though; but every time a conversation about gays pop up, you're the main one on board, quick with the long point by point replies. It's understandable, though, you're just more interested in topics about gays. There's nothing wrong with it, I'm just suggesting that you stick to conversations that you're more attracted to. At least you contribute to them.

So my feeling was right about you, Q99. lol

I love it when intellectually challenged children attempt to insult their adult superiors. That was a good try Sidious 66

lol

I wasn't trying to insult you?

My god, you couldn't be more transparent if I was high right now.

Uh

Are you high right now?

Originally posted by Q99
But when discussing Palps in general, I generally assume original-recipe rather than the clone (and Clone is, I shall note, still *very* defeatable in personal combat, as Luke showed! A Force storm is a big production that takes time to build and he can *barely* control, besides from that he's much as RotJ Palps), and second, they're different areas of the force. Yet when someone else references a Force Storm in regard to Palpatine, I must assume they are referring exclusively to DE Palpatine, as that was the incarnation who actually used Force Storms on-panel.

Very defeatable? Did it not require significant amounts of PIS for Luke to defeat DE Palps?

As for the Storms themselves...
a.) They really didn't take long at all for Palpatine to conjure. He manifested one in the space of a single page, in fact:
http://imgur.com/ZyATMmn

b.) Despite a few statements to the contrary, Palps certainly did appear to have a very fine-tuned degree of control over the Storms--as evident by him using a Storm to transport Luke from Coruscant to a holding cell near Byss:
http://imgur.com/lfjN7F0
http://imgur.com/es5NW0J
http://imgur.com/BBAmx1b
http://imgur.com/5US7KHt
http://imgur.com/D7EAllL
http://imgur.com/m8vQEKz

This map of the SW galaxy shows the distance between the two worlds(outlined in red):
http://i.imgur.com/5R8KhVr.jpg

So yeah, can't agree with you there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh

Are you high right now? nope. I haven't even had alcohol in like 5 years. It messes with my bedroom etiquette and upsets your mother.

Originally posted by psmith81992
My god, you couldn't be more transparent if I was high right now.


So help me out then.lol

In what way did I attempt to insult you this time?

Originally posted by Galan007

Very defeatable? Did it not require significant amounts of PIS for Luke to defeat DE Palps?

Not really!


I mean, Luke cut his hand off in simple sabers. Then Palps started calling on a force storm, and he and Leia teams up to force-blast him, which killed him.

Personal combat, he was still high-tier-but-mortal, Luke progressed enough during DE to match him (in part from his teachings), it was only in force powers that Palpatine remained solidly above.




Lemme note how he is holding his own severed hand ^^


It was relatively quick, but it was something that still happened over the course of a conversation and opening some distance from him, I honestly do not know why Luke didn't cut him down (well, rather, I *do* know- the author was all about solving things with big force powers rather than sabers. He was the inventor of the super-nova sith power too. And I guess making Palpatine lose control took out the Eclipse too!).





I should say, his control was relatively fine, but could be disrupted. Hitting him with light gave a narrative box on how it lost control and then it killed him.

Cade doesn't know self-resurrection.

Arguably Cade may be better at healing *others* once he learns light side transfer, but he doesn't have that.



Because that wouldn't have prevented her from attacking back- when Luke alone was holding her, Abeloth was still attacking and blinded Luke in one eye.

If he didn't go for the stomach-stab, then his partner would've fallen and he'd be facing Abeloth solo. Both of them were needed to hold her down.



Why, exactly, do you think a general showing of high ability, in a location where everyone used known force powers and we don't have a reason to think powers work differently there, isn't relevant?

That seems to be one of the things- If Krayt does something, excuses are found to not count it. If certain other characters are, it's accepted without question.



Cade Skywalker wrecked two powerful force users in saber, Nihl and Talon, right before being beaten down by Darth Krayt who was holding back due to wanting him alive.

Darth Krayt also took down 4 masters at once in about a second.


And both of that before he got upgraded.

See, you don't seem to be willing to accept any feats in other eras as enough to prove oneself near Palpatine.


A'Sharad was a saber prodigy who, when young, beat Aurra Sing, who has in turn beaten Qui-Gon Jinn. He was that good when he was a Jedi, and he's more experienced in combat (massively so, by several times over), physically enhanced, and massively more powerful in the force (which does have an effect in sabers, as Anakin Skywalker will tell you!) since then.

And, as noted, it's not like Sidious was alone in his tier. Windu, Yoda, Plagueis, possibly Anakin and Dooku... simple training and experience gets quite a few people able to compete with Sidious.


If being "a solid B-tier Clone Wars Jedi when still a rookie, who then improves massively *and* has very high tier feats at his max," isn't enough to convince you, then I submit to you that your mind is simply made up as to the outcome and you won't accept any feats as a sign of being in the same tier.




If we go by accolades, Caedus had a vision of Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and so on all dying by the Dark Man's hand. So, yea, he's pretty top-tier in that too.


If we compare their feats, Palpatine has superior saber feats... but not by much, and Krayt has better saber feats than people who've matched Palpatine or his peers.

And in force feats, Sidious has the advantage in some areas, Krayt in others.



You're missing the point. It takes dark side power and skill.

It is a demonstration of skill, and it shows superior skill in that area to pull off.


Dark side skill is one of the things that makes a Sith powerful, so being able to do high-power high-difficulty things in the force that even Sidious or Plagueis could not do -consider how short a list of things Sidious could not do with the dark side is!- shows high-tier ability.







Krayt specifically killed Cade to make him experience death and rebirth as he himself had.



But he has Mace's ability, and Shatterpoint is a constant-on ability that shows you the weaknesses of things.

As been mentioned, we have arguments against Sidious being so overwhelming to Krayt as well.

Let me point out that Krayt's saber feats outpace every saber fight Mace has been in other than beating Palpatine.




Essence transfer is easier, though. Darth Krayt knows it too, as does Andeddu, Exar Kun, and a bunch of others. Lemme note one of those, Andeddu, the original inventor of the ability, was killed by Darth Krayt's second in command, Darth Wyyrlok, in a duel of pure force ability, so one can know Essence transfer and lose completely to someone who in turn loses to Darth Krayt.


Essence transfer is a prerequisite of self-resurrection.


So while you find it impressive, keep in mind what it means that it is merely a step towards learning self-resurrection as Krayt has.







Elaboration?

We don't know that, he's never had to do it.


He learned light side transfer when he healed blue. He's shown to be much more skilled with the power than Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
Not really!

I mean, Luke cut his hand off in simple sabers. Then Palps started calling on a force storm, and he and Leia teams up to force-blast him, which killed him.

Personal combat, he was still high-tier-but-mortal, Luke progressed enough during DE to match him (in part from his teachings), it was only in force powers that Palpatine remained solidly above. As you noted, Luke's overall force prowess had increased immensely thanks to Palpatine's tutelage(ie. albeit briefly embracing the dark side)--and Leia's presence on the field gave him the will/clarity to break free of the darkness and combat Palps. The duo then utilized a haxxed/deus ex machina force ability to separate Palps from his power long enough for his Force Storm to engulf him. So yeah, plenty of PIS was involved.

The issue prior(before embracing the dark side), however, Luke was utterly thrashed by a freshly awakened Palpatine clone:
http://imgur.com/tzZbRqo
http://imgur.com/DfWPtgr
http://imgur.com/4lcX3rA

Goes to show you how much his power had increased by the final issue. Also, it's Luke ffs--at the end of the day he's going to win.

Originally posted by Q99
Lemme note how he is holding his own severed hand ^^

It was relatively quick, but it was something that still happened over the course of a conversation and opening some distance from him, I honestly do not know why Luke didn't cut him down (well, rather, I *do* know- the author was all about solving things with big force powers rather than sabers. He was the inventor of the super-nova sith power too. And I guess making Palpatine lose control took out the Eclipse too!).

I should say, his control was relatively fine, but could be disrupted. Hitting him with light gave a narrative box on how it lost control and then it killed him. So contrary to your previous statements, you concede that DE Palps could conjure Force Storms quickly(because he could), and that he did have excellent control over them(because he did)..?

I'm fine with that.

Luke was fighting a naked, dickless, green Palpatine.

He was a little distracted.

mmm

Originally posted by Galan007
Yet when someone else references a Force Storm in regard to Palpatine, I must assume they are referring exclusively to DE Palpatine, as that was the incarnation who actually used Force Storms on-panel.

Very defeatable? Did it not require significant amounts of PIS for Luke to defeat DE Palps?

As for the Storms themselves...
a.) They really didn't take long at all for Palpatine to conjure. He manifested one in the space of a single page, in fact:
http://imgur.com/ZyATMmn

b.) Despite a few statements to the contrary, Palps certainly did appear to have a very fine-tuned degree of control over the Storms--as evident by him using a Storm to transport Luke from Coruscant to a holding cell near Byss:
http://imgur.com/lfjN7F0
http://imgur.com/es5NW0J
http://imgur.com/BBAmx1b
http://imgur.com/5US7KHt
http://imgur.com/D7EAllL
http://imgur.com/m8vQEKz

This map of the SW galaxy shows the distance between the two worlds(outlined in red):
http://i.imgur.com/5R8KhVr.jpg

So yeah, can't agree with you there. I could be misreading the scans but it looks to me like Luke just got transported to the ship and the ship brought them to byss. It even mentions it being a hyperspace ship that used to transport Jedi back in the day. Either way ur point of palps having pretty good control of the storms is still valid. But like I said I could be missing something, if so let me know. I'd rather figure out how something really went down than to prove my interpretation correct.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I could be misreading the scans but it looks to me like Luke just got transported to the ship and the ship brought them to byss. It even mentions it being a hyperspace ship that used to transport Jedi back in the day. Either way ur point of palps having pretty good control of the storms is still valid. But like I said I could be missing something, if so let me know. I'd rather figure out how something really went down than to prove my interpretation correct. No, you're right. I, myself, had forgotten that until I reread through the bio(which explains the event in better detail):
http://i.imgur.com/i15D73c.jpg
Either way, the fact that Palpatine's control over his Force Storm was fine-tuned enough to snag Luke from the surface of Coruscant and funnel him into a specially designed holding cell/ship, more than proves my point(I know you weren't contesting it, I'm just reiterating is all.)

Aside from that, it's also worth mentioning that Palpatine had mastered Force Storms to such a degree that the Storm itself almost came off as sentient in the way is scoured the planet specifically for Luke:
http://i.imgur.com/5SKt1wz.jpg


Palpatine's control over Force Storms was, contrary to popular belief, very impressive.

Originally posted by Galan007
As you noted, Luke's overall force prowess had increased immensely thanks to Palpatine's tutelage(ie. albeit briefly embracing the dark side)--and Leia's presence on the field gave him the will/clarity to break free of the darkness and combat Palps. The duo then utilized a haxxed/deus ex machina force ability to separate Palps from his power long enough for his Force Storm to engulf him. So yeah, plenty of PIS was involved.

None of which changes that when they were clashing blades, it was simply Luke's skill that allowed him to dishand Palps.


And there still didn't seem to be anything stopping them from stabbing him rather than going for the summoning-light approach.





Yes and no.

Fast in an absolute scale? Sure. Slow compared to most other force techniques you'd use in battle though. Much slower than lightning or TK or so on, and even slower still than saber. I don't think it's very useful in battle because it still takes time when he's just standing there concentrating on it, and then he needs to bring it to his opponents.


And he has fine, but disruptible control. He can point it where he wants, but he is, as they say, riding the dragon. He's not playing with a lot of margin for error.

I'm not sure why Sidious losing to Luke matters. Luke is the best there is when it comes to combat.

Originally posted by Q99
None of which changes that when they were clashing blades, it was simply Luke's skill that allowed him to dishand Palps.

And there still didn't seem to be anything stopping them from stabbing him rather than going for the summoning-light approach. Losing to Luke+Leia in a very special/PIS-ridden circumstance does not equate to any sort of low(and/or easily replicable) showing.

Originally posted by Q99
Slow compared to most other force techniques you'd use in battle though. Much slower than lightning or TK or so on, and even slower still than saber. It's also a vastly more advanced technique than those you mentioned--of course it's going to take a bit longer to conjure. Having said that, Palpatine was able to manifest a massive star fleet-encompassing Storm in the time it took him to utter a few sentences:
http://imgur.com/CuQD9g2
Given the technique, that is not slow in any sense.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think it's very useful in battle because it still takes time when he's just standing there concentrating on it, and then he needs to bring it to his opponents. The Storms move very fast. The first Storm Palps conjured, for example, moved from the space outside Coruscant, to its surface, in the span of a single page:
http://imgur.com/tJ3Ld5q
http://imgur.com/d5slE0p
It logically moved thousandS of mileS in a second-or-two.

Originally posted by Q99
And he has fine, but disruptible control. He can point it where he wants, but he is, as they say, riding the dragon. He's not playing with a lot of margin for error. Disruptible control in the sense that 2 of the most powerful force-users in the mythos can hit him with a wave of pure light energy capable of momentarily separating him from his power? Sure. Aside from that, his control was as solid as it gets.

Riding the dragon? Can't agree. As I mentioned above, his mastery over the Storm was incredible. He was in complete control of it at all times(to the point that it appeared sentient.) Please read:
http://i.imgur.com/5SKt1wz.jpg
...He didn't just blindly point it in a direction and hope the job got done.

And of course, this is secondary to the fact that he was able to control the Storm precisely enough to specifically pluck Luke off the planet and teleport him to a holding vessel.

I may as well reiterate the following, since we're on the subject... Luke flat-out tells us that he alone could not have overcome Palpatine:

Luke: "One Jedi cannot conqueror the dark side alone... I guess we've proved that. Together we were a Jedi fire that outshone his evil."

Leia: "Two are more powerful than one... Three are more powerful than two. I felt another join us, Luke... My third child . He's going to be a very great Jedi.":
http://imgur.com/Wxhzrga
ie. it took the cumulative force energy of three Jedi to separate Palpatine from his power, and subsequently remove his control over the Force Storm. This is certainly not a feat that any single Jedi would be capable of duplicating(as Luke explicitly stated.)

So yeah, that really cannot be misconstrued into a poor showing of any sort. If anything, it is a further testament to DE Palpatine's power.

Boy, did you misinterpret that one.

Luke simply says that one jedi cannot overcome the dark side alone. It's a pretty straightforward statement that is no different than alcoholism or any other addiction. It takes a support group to overcome it.

I suppose you could interpret it that way... IF you completely ignore Leia's subsequent statement, as well as the event that specifically precedes said statements.

If Luke alone could have done it... Luke alone would have done it. It is overtly clear that he couldn't have, however*enter Leia+her unborn child*. If you'd like to me believe that Luke could have done so all by his lonesome, then please do prove it.

Too bad Anakin Solo ended up being... Nothing.

ikr?

He was an embarrassment to the Skywalker gene pool.

A few sentences is time you don't normally get in a duel, is my point. It's a strategic technique, so to speak.

Originally posted by Q99
A few sentences is time you don't normally get in a duel, is my point. It's a strategic technique, so to speak. Oh, ok. With that much I can agree.

That being said, I do see Force Storms as a viable in-battle tactic, given: a.) the speed at which he can conjure them, b.) the speed at which they move, and c.) the extremely fine-tuned/precise degree of control he has over them. Don't get me wrong, it would certainly be a secondary or even tertiary tactic, as the more basic force techniques(such as TK and lightning) are usually his initial 'go-to' abilities.

I'm thinking if one can buy that much time in combat to focus on something, one's already got enough of an edge to win without. So it'd be more an optional style-win if he was going to win anyway.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul. I made a thread a LONG time ago that was Krayt vs Luke, and everyone said that Luke would end up beating him through Sheer force ability, I even tried to argue for Krayt, but my arguments aren't exactly top notch when I DO try to prove a point.

Yea, I gotta go with Luke too in that one. Even with people who're arguably Luke's peers, he's the highest in the tier.

Now, if Krayt took over Cade's body as he was planning at one point, and thus gained Skywalker force potential in addition to all of his ability, I'd love to see that Krayt vs Luke!

I think Krayt would still lack the necessary *skill* to win that fight. His abilities with the Force are already quite admirable.

I don't find Krayt's team work with Luke against Abeloth relevant to a thread like this because it wouldn't be a wrestling match, where one opponent holds down a beast while the other delivers blows that drains the beast of it's powers. Another reason is, that fight didn't portray Abeloth as powerful as she was said to be, otherwise she should have easily demolished both Krayt and Luke, being 12 times more powerful than Luke and all. Unless Krayt equal's 11 Lukes, which is outright laughable.

All I can say about that fight is, they both fought a creature that was stronger than them individually, and they overcame her together. One was wrestling her down, allowing the other to take shots at her which drained her of her powers. Krayt played a major role in that fight because he used a technique against her, one which drained her of her powers, thus weakening her, making it easier to defeat her. That does not mean he is a peer of Luke's or Palpatine's in combat. Hell, if fighting Abeloth alongside Krayt was Luke's only feat to go by, I wouldn't even consider him to be a peer of Sidious in combat, because as I said, that fight didn't portray Abeloth to be as powerful as she was stated to be.

But, assuming Abeloth was factually as powerful as once stated, then it's obviously not sheer power that allowed them to overcome her, but it's the way they went about fighting her, which included Krayt's technique of force-stab draining her (weakening her powers) while Luke wrestled with her. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that it didn't require two extremely powerful force users to overcome Abeloth, I'm just saying that their performance couldn't have been based on power alone, otherwise, as I said, it shouldn't have been a fight, Abeloth should have snuffed them out with incredible ease.

Krayt's blitzing of the IK was impressive, but Krayt was extremely exhausted right after, while Palpatine has done the same to three jedi high council members and still had enough energy to force Windu back and continue fighting. Yes, I know Krayt would not have been exhausted had it not been for those vong growths, but seriously, how are those knights in any way comparable to the jedi masters Palpatine blitzed? If they were then Krayt's fight with Celeste Morne should have gone much differently, considering he initially had help, and considering that Vader beat her pretty solidly while he was very early in his apprenticeship under Sidious.

As far as combat related powers (TK, lightning, etc), Palpatine has proven that he can easily subdue the likes of Maul and Savage (both of whom have comparable TK to Krayt) with TK alone despite their efforts to break free. His lightning was intense enough to scorch a giant sith worm to ash, powerful enough to knock Yoda unconscious with a single short blast, and strong enough to Blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands despite Yoda's force enhanced strength. And None of those feats even include his feats after ROTS. What has Krayt done combat-wise to compare?

All I keep hearing is stuff like, "well Krayt was unmatched during his era." Sorry, but that doesn't suggest he is Palpatine's peer, that's just crazy assumption. Or, "well Krayt knew dark transfer, which requires lots of power and mastery." Well going by sheer raw power and mastery, the ability to create and control force storms beats dark transfer by miles as the DE endnotes basically implied that Palpatine's conjuring of force storms was a demonstration of raw power, stating that Palpatine was a nexus of dark energies that can swell and burst open the fabric of space, as Palpatine also called it his full potency, which seems to imply power. Bane and the brotherhood of darkness had to combine their powers in order to create a force storm of dark energy, and even it wasn't powerful enough to tear apart the fabric of space as Palpatine's did. It would also take an awful amount of force mastery to control such destructive power after it's created, which Palpatine had incredible control over them. And as far as Palpatine requiring the span of a short conversation to create one, that's not true. By the time the storm was shown on panel it had already nearly consumed multiple ships, which means it was created before it was shown to us. During the brief conversation, Palpatine also mentions to Luke "look what is happening to your pitiful moon," meaning the storm was already in process during said conversation. Not to mention that in the Book of Anger, Palpatine says he can summon them with a mere thought (Jedi vs Sith).

Krayt does not come close to being a peer of Palpatine's let alone Luke's. I would even be hesitant to say that he is Vader's equal in combat.

I don't find Krayt's team work with Luke against Abeloth relevant to a thread like this because it wouldn't be a wrestling match,

And nor was the whole fight a wrestling match. Moreover, it was very much an indication of force power.

If you want skill feats, he's got those elsewhere, but the Abeloth fight is a nice indicator of his output and the level he plays on.





One, they're four of them. Two, 'Imperial Knight' as a rank has only been seen given to people of master level that we've seen (it's not like with Jedi where there's Jedi Knight < Jedi Master. The head of the IKs is still just an Imperial Knight), and one of them was a Fel (read: descended from the Solo line). Three, they had him completely surrounded. Four, he finished them even quicker than Sids did.

So sure, they weren't council members, but they had other factors in their side, and you're not going to find just about anyone, even the likes of Dooku, with a similar feat.




And Vader fought a Morne who had *not* learned to draw on the Muur talisman, got knocked on his butt once during the fight (which Krayt never did), and retreated once she started using the talisman, and Krayt unlike Vader wanted her alive... and no, Krayt didn't 'initially' have help, he briefly had an ally step in for a moment partway through the fight then leave again, because Morne also had allies around.





No, you've also heard numerous feats by him, and him meeting people of different eras, including ones who are also Palpatine's peers like Luke, as well as individual feats of his.




It'd be assumption to assume a random best-of-era is (though not exactly too crazy of one, one does not become top for nothing). It's... far less so when it's someone who's got a skill edge in at least some areas of the force, has great saber feats, has some other very high-end feats, and has paled around with Luke, and when his era is full of people who, in turn, have tons of feats, many of them quite impressive. Cade especially, he fights in dozens of battles through the series, is a Skywalker, and is incredible powerful in both the force and in saber.


It's sorta like you're taking the arguments in isolation, to an extent. "Well, this individual thing on it's own isn't enough... nor is this individual thing... or this individual thing...." If you don't consider, 'hey, combined, that's a lot of things,' you're missing the whole picture.

And you're also discounting feats like the IK thing or the Abeloth thing out of hand, even when there's plenty of reason to take them seriously.

And remember, I'm not saying they're the exact same level or anything. I'm saying they're peers, in the same sense that Windu, Yoda, and Palpatine are all peers, even with their variances in power.




Caedus and Luke disagree, which really says all that needs to be said.

Krayt's defeat of the Knights isn't remotely comparable to Sidious's massacre of Windu's posse
Vader sought to use Morne as a weapon against the Emperor, he did not want to kill her
Krayt being unmatched during his era doesn't translate to peerage with Sidious or Luke
Sidious still has Krayt trumped in terms of feats and accolades


At the end of the day, Palpatine is the better duelist, the more powerful Force user, the more accomplished and important figure.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Krayt's defeat of the Knights isn't remotely comparable to Sidious's massacre of Windu's posse

Disagree.

Krayt fights faster than fodder Force practitioners can see, and he's comparable to Sidious? Bane also fought faster than fodder Force practitioners could see as far back as in Path of Destruction, and Bane from that book would be absolutely massacred by Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Disagree.

Why? Unlike the Knights, we know that the guys like Kit and Agen Kolar are very skilled duelists.

Its a remotely comparable feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its a remotely comparable feat.

Not at all. We actually know and see that Kit Fisto is a highly skilled duelist. By contrast, the Knights have done absolutely nothing nor do they have any impressive accolades.

Sidious blitzed three of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order produced. Pray tell, how is blitzing three Knights of unknown quality comparable?

The double standards are hilarious.

Originally posted by Q99
And Vader fought a Morne who had *not* learned to draw on the Muur talisman, got knocked on his butt once during the fight (which Krayt never did), and retreated once she started using the talisman, and Krayt unlike Vader wanted her alive... and no, Krayt didn't 'initially' have help, he briefly had an ally step in for a moment partway through the fight then leave again, because Morne also had allies around.


Uh, Vader initially wanted her alive. In fact, the only reason "knocked on his butt" was because he was initially just defending against here attacks while claiming he did not want to harm her. However, once he actually began to go on the offensive he utterly dominated Morne in their duel.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The double standards are hilarious.

What double standards?

On one hand we know that the Jedi Sidious blitzed were of high quality. However, the Imperial Knights that Krayt blitzed are of unknown quality. Why are we to assume they are the equals of some of the greatest Jedi the Order ever produced with absolutely no evidence?

I'm seeing double standards on both sides, actually. The idea that Kit Fisto, who is explicitly just above AoTC Obi, and his pair of statue like featless morons are the best jedi evah and no one outside of their era can ever ever compare is incredibly numb. Also, newer characters can be evaluated against a blanket statement made long ago without adequate proof.

I'm not saying these knights are superior, but the idea that the fools Sidious stabbed who barely showed any martial ability should be immune from common sense scrutiny is huge bias. That's just maintaining the status quo instead of using reason.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm seeing double standards on both sides, actually. The idea that Kit Fisto, who is explicitly just above AoTC Obi, and his pair of statue like featless morons are the best jedi evah and no one outside of their era can ever ever compare is incredibly numb.

Except, that's not what I'm implying. Great Jedi heroes like Ulic, Revan, etc... I feel are vastly superior to the three musketeers. However, the trio are some of the greatest "fodder" Jedi we ever see. BTW, I feel the same way about the Jedi Strike Team from TOR as well.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, newer characters can be evaluated against a blanket statement made long ago without adequate proof.

I'd strongly disagree. Beyond that, we have other evidence for the skill. Heck, Kit Fisto outdueled Grievous which is no mean feat.

The difference is that the only real 'feats' the Imperial Knights had... Was getting killed by Krayt. Conversely, the Jedi Palpatine steamrolled through have some very impressive, and most importantly, quantifiable feats and reliable accolades under their collective belts.

That is why Palpatine's slaying of said Jedi is far more impressive than Krayt's slaying of said IKs. Imo.

Originally posted by ares834
Not at all. We actually know and see that Kit Fisto is a highly skilled duelist. By contrast, the Knights have done absolutely nothing nor do they have any impressive accolades.

Sidious blitzed three of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order produced. Pray tell, how is blitzing three Knights of unknown quality comparable?

Those Knights were the Emperor's personal bodyguards. I would expect nothing less than them to be skilled Jedi Master-caliber duelists. Blitzing them very much does compare to Sidious' feat. You can say it does not compare equally, but to say they aren't even in the same ballpark is hilarious.

Plus I believe Q99 has said that they do have showings against Sith.

Kit Fisto was again, explicitly just above or equal to AotC Obi (The Cestus Deception). The other two have what combat feats to speak of? Also, in the same book Ventress KOs Fisto in seconds. Ventress who is a fly to Dooku.

The same Fisto whom trounced Grievous.

And what feats do the IKs have?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kit Fisto was again, explicitly just above or equal to AotC Obi (The Cestus Deception).
Kit was very conclusively above AotC Kenobi.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The other two have what combat feats to speak of?
Sparring with Mace and beating Quinlan Vos.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, in the same book Ventress KOs Fisto in seconds.
Because Makashi is the perfect form to use against Shii-Cho.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ventress who is a fly to Dooku.
Not at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those Knights were the Emperor's personal bodyguards. I would expect nothing less than them to be skilled Jedi Master-caliber duelists. Blitzing them very much does compare to Sidious' feat. You can say it does not compare equally, but to say they aren't even in the same ballpark is hilarious.

So we are to just assume they are of equal (or comparable) status? Yeah, not buying that. The trio that Sidious trounced includes some of the greatest Jedi Masters. While the IKs may be Master-caliber I see absolutely no reason to put them on a similar level with guys like Kit Fisto who has actually bested Grievous.

I gotta agree with Moose. There's nothing other than a comically ambiguous description of the B-Team, that puts them ahead of the 4-5 Imperial Knights that Krayt defeated, nor does it make Sidious' win more impressive.

Originally posted by ares834
So we are to just assume they are of equal (or comparable) status? Yeah, not buying that. The trio that Sidious trounced includes some of the greatest Jedi Masters. While the IKs may be Master-caliber I see absolutely no reason to put them on a similar level with guys like Kit Fisto who has actually bested Grievous.

Lol, did I say equal? I said 'remotely comparable'. Which they are. Kit's Krew may be a cut above the Knights, but that still makes it a comparable, though lesser, feat.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I gotta agree with Moose. There's nothing other than a comically ambiguous description of the B-Team, that puts them ahead of the 4-5 Imperial Knights that Krayt defeated, nor does it make Sidious' win more impressive.

R-t9GlT9qmk

New Clone Wars Grievous is a pussy. He's been beaten in a saberlock by Ahoska.

He also fights Kenobi evenly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
New Clone Wars Grievous is a pussy. He's been beaten in a saberlock by Ahoska.

Still a big step up from anything the Knight have ever done.

Originally posted by ares834
R-t9GlT9qmk

That puts him in the top tier? Lol

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He also fights Kenobi evenly.

He's been beaten by Gungans.

Originally posted by ares834
Still a big step up from anything the Knight have ever done.

Man, I'd hope they could beat Ahsoka in a saberlock.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's been beaten by Gungans.
Lowballing is a fun game. Mace lost to a small group of normal people as well. So what?

Also, in terms of speed, the slaying of the trio in the chancellor's office was both ridiculously slow and telegraphed and the Jedi were wedged into a narrow hall of sorts. It's not at all impressive in that light. More later, I'm on a touchscreen mobile.

That fight is my least favorite in the movies. The start with the B-team is awful for the reasons you said, Jackson and McDiarmid can't pull off the choreography and are again slow and pathetic and McDiarmid is so ****ing silly with his stupid facial expressions and hammy acting. Its supposed to be one of the most dramatic scenes in Star Wars and its just a complete farce.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, in terms of speed, the slaying of the trio in the chancellor's office was both ridiculously slow and telegraphed and the Jedi were wedged into a narrow hall of sorts. It's not at all impressive in that light. More later, I'm on a touchscreen mobile.

Yeah, the choreography in that duel was god awful. That said in the film they weren't in the hall but in the Chancellor's room.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's been beaten by Gungans.

Man, I'd hope they could beat Ahsoka in a saberlock.

Krayt was hard-pressed by a holocron...

Isn't lowballing fun?

Yes.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The double standards are hilarious.

There aren't any.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, the choreography in that duel was god awful. That said in the film they weren't in the hall but in the Chancellor's room.



Krayt was hard-pressed by a holocron...

Isn't lowballing fun?

Look again: they were clustered against the opening of the hall adjacent to his office, and had little room in which to move. If you take four guys, give them laser swords, and have them bunch up, they can't defend themselves as well without compromising each other. The environment, and their obvious inability to react whatsoever for the some odd seconds after he ignited his saber and flew at them, heavily favored the Chancellor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There aren't any.

Perhaps from where you're standing.

So aside from getting killed by Krayt, what feats did those IKs have again..?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Perhaps from where you're standing.

Which is where?

The unassailable, inarguable fact is that the B-Team have impressive accolades and feats attached to them whereas (as far as I can recall) the Knights butchered by Krayt have neither. From what we know, Sidious's feat is vastly more impressive than Krayt's.

Where are the double standards? For either side?

Lol

The jedi had plenty of room to defend themselves. They also had enough room to spread out, as seen when Palpatine brandished his saber and made his leap. They weren't that clustered (in fact they were farther apart than the IKs Krayt killed); After Palpatine cuts Kolar and Tiin down, he even had to take a couple of huge steps (almost running) to get to Fisto and Windu. The fact that the first two were unable to react was because of a huge speed disparity. Regardless of how terrible that scene was, it was suppose depict Sidious as being extremely fast, as stated by Mcdiarmid who played the character. Common sense should tell us (along with EU sources) that it was Palpatine's speed that enabled him to cut them down so quickly, considering that they each can react to multiple blasters with ease. There's also no reason why Windu and Fisto, both being very aggressive offensive fighters, were unable to cut Palpatine down in the time it took him to drop Kolar and Tiin and then turn around to engage them, unless Palpatine was just that fast, which he was.

I'll post videos later, unless someone else wants to.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

The unassailable, inarguable fact is that the B-Team have impressive accolades and feats attached to them whereas (as far as I can recall) the Knights butchered by Krayt have neither. From what we know, Sidious's feat is vastly more impressive than Krayt's.


Pretty sure the Imperial Knights as an organization have a quote in the Legacy campaign guide saying they're some of the best duelists out there, and these were masters of said organization, one of them being Roan Fel's personal bodyguard. Krayt doing this while suffering from diminished health is pretty impressive as a whole.

It is not, however, even remotely comparable to Sidious's feat against the B-Team, as you say.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying that the IKs are weak fodder(obviously a group of talentless feebs aren't going to be put in charge of safeguarding the Emperor.) In fact, these separate bios confirm that they are very well-trained force adepts:
http://imgur.com/iEFyuM3
http://imgur.com/j0dZcgY

However, IKs simply lack the feats to contend with overtly established(by virtue of feats and accolades) Jedi Masters like Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar.

I would think being the Emperor's personal bodyguards was sufficient proof of their superiority, to a certain extent.

lol

That does not prove superiority over the B-Team.

No more than a single quote proves superiority over the Imperial Knights