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https://marvel.com/universe/Oblivion
Can a Celestial stop Oblivion?

May as well ask if they could beat infinity eternity or death.... To me there's no celestial that could do it individually... As a whole the celestials have numbers that could overwhelm

Man, it looks like a Celestial, Exitar, is about to get his @$$ handed to him by an Asgardian axe! LOL.

Oblivion demolishes any Celestial short of Scathan.

Originally posted by rotiart
May as well ask if they could beat infinity eternity or death.... To me there's no celestial that could do it individually... As a whole the celestials have numbers that could overwhelm

Nah, Eternity (one of the four cornerstone Abstracts) is the one who was responsible for bringing the Celestials into being.

Silver Surfer v3 #10:

http://i.imgur.com/mFvj5w1.jpg?1

Or.....take Heroes Reborn the Return #4, for instance, where it's stated that they're merely figments of Eternity's imaginations:

http://i.imgur.com/WKNXute.jpg

That should give you the idea about the power gap between a true Abstract and the Celestials.

Although, Eternity is sometimes portrayed to be the most powerful of the abstracts. But regardless, the Celestials aren't really in the Abstract tier.

Originally posted by operator616
Nah, Eternity (one of the four cornerstone Abstracts) is the one who was responsible for bringing the Celestials into being.

Silver Surfer v3 #10:

http://i.imgur.com/mFvj5w1.jpg?1

Or.....take Heroes Reborn the Return #4, for instance, where it's stated that they're merely figments of Eternity's imaginations:

http://i.imgur.com/WKNXute.jpg

That should give you the idea about the power gap between a true Abstract and the Celestials.

Although, Eternity is sometimes portrayed to be the most powerful of the abstracts. But regardless, the Celestials aren't really in the Abstract tier.
How does this explain Scathan?

Originally posted by Wonder Man
https://marvel.com/universe/Oblivion
Can a Celestial stop Oblivion?
Scathan.

Originally posted by zopzop
Man, it looks like a Celestial, Exitar, is about to get his @$$ handed to him by an Asgardian axe! LOL.

Oblivion demolishes any Celestial short of Scathan.
Scathan could, moreover, I believe it was stated on panel recently that the Celestials were the ones responsible for creating the multiverse.
They've never really had concrete origins, rather ambiguous.

Originally posted by zopzop
How does this explain Scathan?

It doesn't. We both know that Scathan is the exception, so im setting him aside.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
I believe it was stated on panel recently that the Celestials were the ones responsible for creating the multiverse.

It was stated and actually shown. This happened in the X-Termination arc.

Here's a statement from X-Termination #1:

http://i.imgur.com/yrDBjwB.jpg?1

And depicted in Astonishing X-Men #61:

http://i.imgur.com/XRyphLe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/km7YB7h.jpg

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

They've never really had concrete origins, rather ambiguous.

Their origins have been mostly emphasized in Fantastic Four annual #26. There were several theories regarding their origins, and Kosmos' final deduction was that their origins were associated with Eternity:

http://i.imgur.com/FvE8AWx.jpg?1

Xmen ****ing up continuity once again...

On another note, it's possible that (setting the statement into a greater perspective), would mean that along with the Proemial Gods they brought order to chaos that was the beginning of the marvel universe but *shrug* Imo Xmen has a fantastic ability to completely ignore everything else and do whatever they want.

Originally posted by operator616
Nah, Eternity (one of the four cornerstone Abstracts) is the one who was responsible for bringing the Celestials into being.

Silver Surfer v3 #10:

http://i.imgur.com/mFvj5w1.jpg?1

Or.....take Heroes Reborn the Return #4, for instance, where it's stated that they're merely figments of Eternity's imaginations:

http://i.imgur.com/WKNXute.jpg

That should give you the idea about the power gap between a true Abstract and the Celestials.

Although, Eternity is sometimes portrayed to be the most powerful of the abstracts. But regardless, the Celestials aren't really in the Abstract tier. That's great but just because you are spawned from Eternity doesn't mean you have to be weaker than him. Even amongst Celestials there is a tier in power ranking.

Just look at some of the crazy omega mutants Marvel are spewing in past few decades.

Ignoring Scathan, Oblivion is above Celestials.

Originally posted by kgkg
That's great but just because you are spawned from Eternity doesn't mean you have to be weaker than him. Even amongst Celestials there is a tier in power ranking.

Just look at some of the crazy omega mutants Marvel are spewing in past few decades. True. Even in the scans operator posted(which tout the Celestials as the creators of the multiverse, mind you), we learn that one of the Celestials' monstrous creations turned on(and presumably destroyed) a few of them:
http://imgur.com/BPC7BDy

It's possible, but I don't think Celestials have done anything to put themselves above Oblivion, or even Chaos King.

Originally posted by kgkg
That's great but just because you are spawned from Eternity doesn't mean you have to be weaker than him. Even amongst Celestials there is a tier in power ranking.

Just look at some of the crazy omega mutants Marvel are spewing in past few decades.

Ok, just because they're spawns of Eternity doesn't mean they're weaker.....but being figments of imagination does, no?

More on point, consistent portrayal shows Eternity definitely above the Celestials, that much is indisputable. So what are you trying to suggest?

I think he's suggesting that just because the Celestials *were* creations of Eternity, does not automatically mean Eternity was superior to them by proxy... Which I agree with. One example of many: Doom /w/ IG created an entire universe, along with every life form within it, from scratch--yet this didn't stop Doom's creations from overpowering him and usurping control of the gems. ie. creations>creator.

Anywho, the most current evidence(which is the most canon) states that the Celestials created the universe/multiverse(ie. Eternity)--not the other way around. This retcon essentially renders the argument moot either way. /shrug

TOA might be able to manage.

Originally posted by Galan007

Anywho, the most current evidence(which is the most canon) states that the Celestials created the universe/multiverse(ie. Eternity)--not the other way around. This retcon essentially renders the argument moot either way. /shrug

Most current evidence also has Celestials getting killed by a simple enchantment.....that's not exactly Eternity level if you ask me. Their portrayal has been inconsistent. So even with those recent revelations, i don't think Celestials' "average" puts them in the Abstract tier.

Originally posted by operator616
Most current evidence also has Celestials getting killed by a simple enchantment.....that's not exactly Eternity level if you ask me. Their portrayal has been inconsistent. So even with those recent revelations, i don't think Celestials' "average" puts them in the Abstract tier.

Let's wait and see how Exitar handles the axe.

Originally posted by operator616
Ok, just because they're spawns of Eternity doesn't mean they're weaker.....but being figments of imagination does, no? No it doesn't. In theory Eternity should be the the most powerful entity other than Abstract/creations beyond him. But this is not true as we have seen mutants that have been able surpass him.

Which is fine. I was just pointing out that being created does not mean you are weaker and is not proof that Eternity > Celestials.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Let's wait and see how Exitar handles the axe.
I am fairly sure that he's gonna get destroyed by it, but will eventually reappear in another comic years(or maybe decades) later. Afterall, per Odin the Jarnbjorn enchantment was specifically meant to be used only in case of the Celestial Executioner's appearance on Earth.

Well, at least we know for sure now that Celestials can actually resurrect/regenerate from death over time. I guess this is what Galactus meant when he expressed surprise when Thanos w/ HoTU oneshotted Ziran.

Originally posted by operator616
Most current evidence also has Celestials getting killed by a simple enchantment.....
That borders on weakness exploitation though, seeing how the enchantment is specifically meant to penetrate their armor, along with Thor and Apocalypse both being able to survive a strike each from that axe.

Jarnbjorn is an idiotic PIS deus ex machina, spitting in the face of decades of established continuity and canon.

In other words, business as usual for Marvel.

Originally posted by operator616
Ok, just because they're spawns of Eternity doesn't mean they're weaker.....but being figments of imagination does, no?
Dark Walker was a figment of Franklin Richards' imagination. Yet that didn't stop him from overpowering Franklin and friends during their voyage across those bizarre, cartoonish 2-d realities.

Fury was also a figment of Jaspers' imagination technically speaking. Still the Fury defeated him.

IIRC, Eternity was nearly killed once due to quantum destabilizations in the fabric of spacetime caused by an alien civilization. Then there is the first Dormammu showing. As bad as the Celestials' current track record is, Eternity is an even bigger jobber than they are imo.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Dark Walker was a figment of Franklin Richards' imagination. Yet that didn't stop him from overpowering Franklin and friends during their voyage across those bizarre, cartoonish 2-d realities.

Fury was also a figment of Jaspers' imagination technically speaking. Still the Fury defeated him.

IIRC, Eternity was nearly killed once due to quantum destabilizations in the fabric of spacetime caused by an alien civilization. Then there is the first Dormammu showing. As bad as the Celestials' current track record is, Eternity is an even bigger jobber than they are imo.

That was quite different from Eternity's case. From what i recall, Dark Hunter was the embodiment of Franklin's grief (of losing his parents). That's why Dark Hunter was overpowering Franklin.

I also don't think that the Fury would be applicable to be called a figment of imagination of Jasper's. Although i do see your point (heck, now that i think of it, i remember Bat mite stating that he was Bruce's figment of imagination in Batman: RIP), i was mostly referring to how it was stated in context (it was clearly meant to imply that Eternity was far above the Celestials).

Originally posted by Epicurus
Well, at least we know for sure now that Celestials can actually resurrect/regenerate from death over time. this was originally stated back in F4 #400, after Sue destroyed Exitar:
http://i.imgur.com/RNi3N1H.jpg
...But your right, Exitar being alive in current continuity definitely confirms those statements.

Also, given that Exitar is alive a scant 19 years later, Uatu(and Sue's) boasts that it'd take thousands of years for him to resurrect were complete shit. mmm

Originally posted by Epicurus
That borders on weakness exploitation though, seeing how the enchantment is specifically meant to penetrate their armor, along with Thor and Apocalypse both being able to survive a strike each from that axe. Yeah, I liken it to the Hyperspace weakness, myself. I mean, the scope of Sue's powers are what, city-wide on a great day? Yet that didn't stop her from destroying Exitar(after busting through his armor like tissue paper), and skewering one of the Mad Celestials with a basic construct.

Jarnbjorn is just another silly deus ex way to kill-off a space God that possesses transinfinite levels of power.

Originally posted by Galan007
I mean, the scope of Sue's powers are what, city-wide on a great day? Yet that didn't stop her from destroying Exitar(after busting through his armor like tissue paper)

Well, the 2006 bio does clarify that she tapped into "nigh-infinite" hyperspace energies to destroy Exitar (something which was never stated on panel):

http://i.imgur.com/xTZ1YtZ.jpg?1

So we know it's much more than city-level.

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, given that Exitar is alive a scant 19 years later, Uatu(and Sue's) boasts that it'd take thousands of years for him to resurrect were complete shit. mmm

Wasn't it however stated that the Exitar that Sue destroyed had used eons gathering enough energy to destroy The One? Couldn't that also be what Uatu means with stalling the conflict?

Originally posted by Terryc250
It's possible, but I don't think Celestials have done anything to put themselves above Oblivion, or even Chaos King. Chaos King>Oblivion
CK absorbed alot of outside power that was added to his, he was insanely amped

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Chaos King>Oblivion
CK absorbed alot of outside power that was added to his, he was insanely amped

Phuck that admitted liar and known imbecile Oblivion.

Originally posted by operator616
Well, the 2006 bio does clarify that she tapped into "nigh-infinite" hyperspace energies to destroy Exitar (something which was never stated on panel):

http://i.imgur.com/xTZ1YtZ.jpg?1

So we know it's much more than city-level. You're reading into that too much, me thinks. We already knew that Hyperspace=near-infinite energy(this was reiterated multiple times during the Hyperstorm fiasco.) We already knew Sue's powers come from Hyperspace. We already knew Sue was able to destroy Exitar because her Hyperspace-powa literally equates to Celestial Kryptonite.

...But just because the energy source from which Sue leeches her powers is nigh-infinite, doesn't mean Sue's powers themselves(what she's displayed on panel, that is) are nigh-infinite by proxy. She's a very finite character with very defined limitations--she can only tap a micro-fraction of that power.

Heck, Sue required a uni-power amp just to shield the city from a few-mile-long tidal wave:
http://imgur.com/BYp041K
http://imgur.com/L6GSalT
http://imgur.com/L55rhVh

Originally posted by Utrigita
Wasn't it however stated that the Exitar that Sue destroyed had used eons gathering enough energy to destroy The One? Couldn't that also be what Uatu means with stalling the conflict? Yes, that was stated:
http://imgur.com/RC7Sfr1

I suppose that's what it could have meant... Although I wasn't really being serious, tbh. /shrug

When did Eternity nearly died from quantum destabilizations in the fabric of spacetime caused by an alien civilization?

^ Fantastic Four #550 (the story was more than one issue im just citing the issue of the scans).

http://i.imgur.com/Bi64FOT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aJvtkGl.jpg

Although it involved space-time destruction.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're reading into that too much, me thinks. We already knew that Hyperspace=near-infinite energy(this was reiterated multiple times during the Hyperstorm fiasco.) We already knew Sue's powers come from Hyperspace. We already knew Sue was able to destroy Exitar because her Hyperspace-powa literally equates to Celestial Kryptonite.

...But just because the energy source from which Sue leeches her powers is nigh-infinite, doesn't mean Sue's powers themselves(what she's displayed on panel, that is) are nigh-infinite by proxy. She's a very finite character with very defined limitations--she can only tap a micro-fraction of that power.


I understand that hyperspace is a nigh infinite source of energy, which is why i was under the impression that Susan somehow tapped into a huge amount of it to destroy a Celestial (which would make sense, since well, it's a celestial) -- that's what i understood from that bio.

Well, obviously Susan has her limits, i just thought that this was a kind of 1 time showing.

Originally posted by operator616
I understand that hyperspace is a nigh infinite source of energy, which is why i was under the impression that Susan somehow tapped into a huge amount of it to destroy a Celestial (which would make sense, since well, it's a celestial) -- that's what i understood from that bio.

Well, obviously Susan has her limits, i just thought that this was a kind of 1 time showing. I don't think so.

Remember, it took ALL of Sue's strength/focus/intensity/concentration just to bust open a very small hole in Exitar's armor:
http://imgur.com/sE32whs

When Sue later 'killed' Exitar, she did so by blasting his brain/nerve center, which started a chain reaction that destroyed Exitar's entirety(kind of like shooting a human being in the head):
http://imgur.com/EQANky1
http://imgur.com/xRXLrbg
http://imgur.com/rsDCD9C
She didn't seem to be channeling Brobdingnagian-esque energies at the time. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, given that Exitar is alive a scant 19 years later, Uatu(and Sue's) boasts that it'd take thousands of years for him to resurrect were complete shit. mmm
Considering that the Richards kids were roughly the same age back then as they are now(that contrived stupidity about Franklin becoming a Cable-ripoff under Nathaniel's training notwithstanding), I'd say the actual timeline within the comics is probably even shorter. Maybe 2 or 3 years at best.

Originally posted by operator616
That was quite different from Eternity's case. From what i recall, Dark Hunter was the embodiment of Franklin's grief (of losing his parents). That's why Dark Hunter was overpowering Franklin.

I also don't think that the Fury would be applicable to be called a figment of imagination of Jasper's. Although i do see your point (heck, now that i think of it, i remember Bat mite stating that he was Bruce's figment of imagination in Batman: RIP), i was mostly referring to how it was stated in context (it was clearly meant to imply that Eternity was far above the Celestials).
Yes, which is what my point has been. Just because you were born from someone's imagination doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be automatically weaker than them. When imagination goes out of control, we call it a nightmare metaphorically speaking.

Jaspers' is a psychic reality warper, no? So basically speaking, everything he creates, whether it be a hovering cup of tea or an invincible android of mass destruction like the Fury is essentially a figment of his imagination. Which ended up killing him in their final fight. So it counts imo.

Also, as far as you using the Ashema instance to show how a godlike being is supposedly above the entities they create from their imagination, I'd like to point out that when Tiamut usurped Ashema's role as the Supreme Being of that reality, those fake teams of heroes were the ones who ultimately defeated him and helped restore her to power.

Another instance of imaginary creations outperforming their creator.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Jaspers' is a psychic reality warper, no? So basically speaking, everything he creates, whether it be a hovering cup of tea or an invincible android of mass destruction like the Fury is essentially a figment of his imagination. Which ended up killing him in their final fight. So it counts imo.

238 Jaspers created the Fury ... which in-turn killed 616 Jaspers.

The original Fury is a 238 character which traveled to 616.

238 JJ's warp was just as consuming as JJ-616's.
But 238 JJ was susceptible to the effects of his parent reality (238)
which is why he died when the literal spatial/temporal life-force of reality-238 was erased.

Evidently 616 JJ needed to be attacked directly since apparently nothing was penetrating his warp,
likewise or what his warp had engulfed.

Basically making the character unbeatable ... no worries ... enter the Plot (Fury)

The Fury ... who happens to be immune to the warp, with already inherent uber
durability, packing an arm canon that can fry just about anything, then coupled
with the most effective/efficient adaptation capabilities we've ever seen in Marvel.

That said, had the fight between 616 JJ and the Fury lasted a little longer, Jaspers wins.

As mighty as it was, the Fury was taxed after battling "God" across universeS,
while JJ was in optimal conditions until the un-space dance came into play.

^Basically speaking, the product of one Jaspers' mind ended up killing a more powerful version of its creator. Good to know, and that vindicates my point even further.

Celestials. What issue is Exitar in