Itachi vs The Gokage

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AuraAngel
http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/105/6/5/_naruto____itachi_from_edo_tensei_by_david_y_f-d4w9d4h.png

vs

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/311/1/f/gokage_by_bl4ckburn-d4ffnqa.jpg

Battle takes place where the Gokage fought Madara. Both sides are bloodlusted and CIS is off. Itachi is Edo Tensei but the Gokage start off fresh. Who wins?

SSJGGogeta
Yeah, edo Itachi vaporizes all of them with Amaterasu except Gaara and Raikage, before he traps Raikage in Tsukiyomi, because he always is very straightforward in fights and would go right up to him and get tricked into looking into Itachi's eyes, and his Susano'o stabs through Gaara's sand as well as his chest, sealing him indefinitely. Itachi should win this in a few seconds/minutes(at the most). thumb up

Bentley
Mmmh... The Gokage suck. Itachi can cancel Healing, which is the biggest thing Tsunade brings to the table. I suppose they can eventually get the drop on him... But admittedly Madara struggled because he was stupid cocky.

Kages 2/10.

Q99
Itachi is good but even he cannot take on 5v1 against such skilled ninja who work well together.

I'm not sure what Itachi's going to do if they do something like Tsunade boosting Onoki's dust to make it too large to avoid again. Gaara's sand has proven itself capable of blocking amaterasu for the defense, as well.


Gokage. They have killer offense and great defense. Possibly with casualties, but they have the advantage.

AuraAngel
Originally posted by Q99
Itachi is good but even he cannot take on 5v1 against such skilled ninja who work well together.

I'm not sure what Itachi's going to do if they do something like Tsunade boosting Onoki's dust to make it too large to avoid again. Gaara's sand has proven itself capable of blocking amaterasu for the defense, as well.


Gokage. They have killer offense and great defense. Possibly with casualties, but they have the advantage.

If Itachi takes any of them out who would it be?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Q99
Itachi is good but even he cannot take on 5v1 against such skilled ninja who work well together.

I'm not sure what Itachi's going to do if they do something like Tsunade boosting Onoki's dust to make it too large to avoid again. Gaara's sand has proven itself capable of blocking amaterasu for the defense, as well.


Gokage. They have killer offense and great defense. Possibly with casualties, but they have the advantage.

Again, this is edo Itachi, so the dust style does nothing. Even if it wasn't, he still has the Yata mirror which could easily block it. Itachi can counter ALL of there strengths, and still kill them easily with a few hax abilities. An Amaterasu shotgun to cover the field, a full cloak of it to cover his Susano'o and Tsukiyomi for anyone stupid enough to get close makes him a tank of absolute death for enough time to vaporize all the kage. thumb up

Bentley
Originally posted by Q99
Itachi is good but even he cannot take on 5v1 against such skilled ninja who work well together.

I'm not sure what Itachi's going to do if they do something like Tsunade boosting Onoki's dust to make it too large to avoid again. Gaara's sand has proven itself capable of blocking amaterasu for the defense, as well.


Gokage. They have killer offense and great defense. Possibly with casualties, but they have the advantage.

Itachi won't be easily sealed, if he plays it smart he can take out the actual threats from the team (Onoki and Gaara) and deal with the rest in a more conventional fashion.

TheTyrant
Itachi uses Tsukuyomi on all 5 and there's really nothing they can do to break out since genjutsu of that level is damn near impossible to break out of. That's coming from Kakashi, someone who has experienced it firsthand and also has a Sharingan. Not to mention that he's easily better than any of the Kage at this point.

And before anyone says it: no you can't have somebody else pull you out of Tsukuyomi. Kakashi specifically said that such tactics won't work on an instant genjutsu like Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

Originally posted by Bentley
Mmmh... The Gokage suck. Itachi can cancel Healing, which is the biggest thing Tsunade brings to the table. I suppose they can eventually get the drop on him... But admittedly Madara struggled because he was stupid cocky.

Kages 2/10.

Madara didn't struggle, lol. He was just toying with them the entire time. He could legit one-panel them all if he wanted to.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by AuraAngel
If Itachi takes any of them out who would it be?
Mei most likely. But I'm on the Gokage's side for this one. Sure you could argue that Itachi would beat any of these guys one on one but even he's not taking them all out it they attack together.

TheTyrant
So how are they countering Tsukuyomi?

wakkawakkawakka
Tsukuyomi is limited to only one person when he casts it and with 4 addition Kage on his back he won't have that much room to counter. And with Gaara acting as support, the kages could always just stay out of range.

Demonic Phoenix
Itachi drops the multiverse on these fools.

Bentley
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Madara didn't struggle, lol. He was just toying with them the entire time. He could legit one-panel them all if he wanted to.

He got tagged several times, got blown through Susaano etc. As I said, it was all because he was way too cocky.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Tsukuyomi is limited to only one person when he casts it and with 4 addition Kage on his back he won't have that much room to counter. And with Gaara acting as support, the kages could always just stay out of range.

Really? Because I seem to remember fairly well that it was used on Sasuke while Kakashi was still in it.

With a field covered in Amaterasu, the Kage won't have much room to counter... Especially when getting too close will gain three Susano'o arms stabbing and slashing that you have to dodge, as well as looking at Itachi's eyes due to Tsukiyomi. Face it, the Kage don't have the ability to fight while being limited by Itachi's abilities all around them. thumb up

Even if they stayed out of range, Itachi easily dodges all of Gaara's attacks and then finishes them with a long range Yasaka Magatama coated in amaterasu.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
He got tagged several times, got blown through Susaano etc. As I said, it was all because he was way too cocky.

It's not so much being cocky as it was him laughing at the futility of their efforts. He even said he didn't need to dodge or block their attacks because he was an Edo Tensei. If he wanted, he could have instantly killed them all with his shear physical strength, as demonstrated when one-panelling the second hokage, ten tails beast, Sasuke, AND all the Biju. EMS Sasuke would have raped all the Kage's in an instant, and Madara did that to Sasuke, lol.

Q99
Originally posted by Bentley
Itachi won't be easily sealed, if he plays it smart he can take out the actual threats from the team (Onoki and Gaara) and deal with the rest in a more conventional fashion.

Meh, if he focused on those enough to take them out, that'd leave him more open to the others.

Also, I wouldn't say Gaara's a primary threat. A primary defense, sure, but pretty much all of them are threats. Mei can do one-seal water dragons repeatedly. Tsunade or A can bust through the more fragile parts of susano'o. Etc..


Remember, this group took out *twenty five susano'os*. Not as good as Itachi's, but there was twenty five of them.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Q99
Meh, if he focused on those enough to take them out, that'd leave him more open to the others.

Also, I wouldn't say Gaara's a primary threat. A primary defense, sure, but pretty much all of them are threats. Mei can do one-seal water dragons repeatedly. Tsunade or A can bust through the more fragile parts of susano'o. Etc..


Remember, this group took out *twenty five susano'os*. Not as good as Itachi's, but there was twenty five of them.

Again, how are they going to find an opening when Itachi has the entire field covered in Amaterasu, can seal or mind-**** anyone who gets too close, and has the Yata mirror to block any and all attacks that come at him, while also having the ability to chuck Amaterasu coated Yasaka Magatama's at long ranges, effectively killing anyone they land close to?

The group took out 25 Susano'os that were unarmed and basically equivalent to giant white Zetsu's. Madara only used them as a joke. He even said that he wasn't using a fraction of his power the whole time. He said "What adult would use full force when playing with a child?", and basically soloed them all in seconds after he broke out of Edo Tensei.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Really? Because I seem to remember fairly well that it was used on Sasuke while Kakashi was still in it.

With a field covered in Amaterasu, the Kage won't have much room to counter... Especially when getting too close will gain three Susano'o arms stabbing and slashing that you have to dodge, as well as looking at Itachi's eyes due to Tsukiyomi. Face it, the Kage don't have the ability to fight while being limited by Itachi's abilities all around them. thumb up

Even if they stayed out of range, Itachi easily dodges all of Gaara's attacks and then finishes them with a long range Yasaka Magatama coated in amaterasu.

When did that happen? Because I remember Kakashi being in Tsukuyomi and Sasuke being under it at two different times.

Itachi would be on his last leg if he spammed Amateratsu like that. On top of that Gaara can outright block it. Susanoo, unless its the full form Tsunade or A can easily hammer at it until it breaks or Tsunade could juice up Onoki to use that super Particle Style tech.

Itachi can't use Amateratsu like that unless shown otherwise. Remember the big deal that was made about Sasuke being able to control Amateratsu better than Itachi at the Kage Summit?

Q99
One, he never does that. Two, they can fly. Three, Gaara can block amaterasu quite easily, and the others are the ones involved in the offense. Four, if Itachi is doing that, he's not doing much which could stop them.

So, why's that supposed to be a problem again?



A's faster than him, and the methods I mentioned are ranged attacks.



Which is a shield that blocks in one direction.

The last time the Kage did a move like this, they had both the uber-dust, and a lightning-enhanced water that got under Madara's susano'o.



Except for, y'know, the swords, and genjutsu and such.


And nothing you mentioned Itachi doing would stop what they actually did.




Sure, he still had his Final Susano'o in reserve, but he was still using more chakra than Itachi has period and Itachi doesn't have that or an equivalent to that, so so what?

TheTyrant
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Tsukuyomi is limited to only one person when he casts it and with 4 addition Kage on his back he won't have that much room to counter. And with Gaara acting as support, the kages could always just stay out of range.

How do you know that Tsukuyomi is limited to only one person at a time? Then why did Kakashi tell both Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes when Itachi first activated it? Not to mention that Shikamaru's father stated Itachi is the only person who is capable of putting multiple people under genjutsu from a huge distance.

http://i.imgur.com/gcg1s6C.jpg

Plus, Tsukuyomi does its thing in a mere moment in the real world, so healthy Itachi can easily spam it on 5 people.

wakkawakkawakka
^ That scan states that Itachi wouldn't be able to control so many people at once.

Itachi would get one Kage with it at best before the others tag him. Plus A's faster than Itachi so that's a plus.

TheTyrant
He wouldn't be able to control so many people at once, but it is still clearly implying that he can control multiple people.

Wasn't RM Naruto faster than A? Or was that BM Naruto? If it was RM Naruto, then A's not faster than Itachi, lol. And only one who can do anything against Susano'o is Onoki. Other ones would be utterly useless.

Itachi is the same person who casually one-paneled Orochimaru and Deidara without even activating Mangekyo Sharingan. Orochimaru and Deidara would be stronger than any current Kage other than A and Onoki.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
When did that happen? Because I remember Kakashi being in Tsukuyomi and Sasuke being under it at two different times.

Itachi would be on his last leg if he spammed Amateratsu like that. On top of that Gaara can outright block it. Susanoo, unless its the full form Tsunade or A can easily hammer at it until it breaks or Tsunade could juice up Onoki to use that super Particle Style tech.

Itachi can't use Amateratsu like that unless shown otherwise. Remember the big deal that was made about Sasuke being able to control Amateratsu better than Itachi at the Kage Summit?

http://i17.mangapanda.com/naruto/147/naruto-2928.jpg

When Itachi did this, Kakashi was still in Tsukiyomi, as they hadn't brought Tsunade back to the village yet. I rest my case.

http://i14.mangapanda.com/naruto/391/naruto-7886.jpg

See the lower rings of the building? That are covered in Amaterasu? This proves Itachi can coat his surroundings in Amaterasu which could be used as a defense.

http://i33.mangapanda.com/naruto/478/naruto-1137347.jpg

Here is Danzo clearly refuting what was stated earlier, as he's actually seen Itachi in action. Stating that Itachi's Tsukiyomi was superior to Sasuke's by far implies that his Mangekyo altogether was better, including his Amaterasu and Susano'o. Sasuke couldn't even use Susano'o full with armor until he got EMS. They said ONE time that it was amazing that Sasuke could alter Amaterasu's path, something Itachi couldn't do, but he clearly did so when fighting Sasuke, proving them wrong before they even said that.

Itachi used Amaterasu to cover the field, spammed it to hit Sasuke, overcome his fireball, and shoot at him during the entire fight. Along with Tsukiyomi, a couple fireballs, Susano'o fully cloaked and blocking Kirirn ALL while being on his deathbed and sick, as stated by Zetsu, proves he has MORE than enough chakra to dish out a couple Tsukiyomi's, some Amaterasu coverage, Yata mirro blockage and some Totsuka blade stabs, in Edo Tensei with a smile on his face like it's nothing.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Q99
One, he never does that. Two, they can fly. Three, Gaara can block amaterasu quite easily, and the others are the ones involved in the offense. Four, if Itachi is doing that, he's not doing much which could stop them.

So, why's that supposed to be a problem again?



A's faster than him, and the methods I mentioned are ranged attacks.



Which is a shield that blocks in one direction.

The last time the Kage did a move like this, they had both the uber-dust, and a lightning-enhanced water that got under Madara's susano'o.



Except for, y'know, the swords, and genjutsu and such.


And nothing you mentioned Itachi doing would stop what they actually did.




Sure, he still had his Final Susano'o in reserve, but he was still using more chakra than Itachi has period and Itachi doesn't have that or an equivalent to that, so so what?

One, no one in the Kage team can fly except Ohnoki. Gaara can fly, but it's not even worth mentioning considering he's just floating on a hunk of sand. Two, Gaara can only block Amaterasu, not a Totsuka blade stab, or a single Yasaka Magatama. Three, the others STILL couldn't land a hit, as he has Yata mirror blocking one side with impenetrable defense, Amaterasu covering every other side, and three free arms to cover him from all around, as well as Genjutsu that FAR surpasses Kage level, and can give him the seconds he needs to tag them, which would kill them.

The Amaterasu would instantly evaporate the water, making that a moot point, Yata mirror would block the dust style, and Totsuka blade would make shish-kebobs out of anyone that gave him a single second to kill them instantly.

A is NOT faster than Itachi. A got speed-blitzed by KCM Naruto, who in turn was speed-blitzed by Nagato who got blitzed by Itachi. Itachi blitzes the shit out of A with a smile on his face while he's dousing him in Amaterasu from all directions, lol.

Madara has a lot more chakra than Itachi, obviously, but he also has less deadly abilities. He doesn't have Amaterasu, the Totsuka blade, Tsukiyomi, or really any of the incredible attacks Itachi has that he could use his strategic thinking to land with ease against the Kage's. This fight would literally be child's play to Itachi. He would blitz everyone while using Genjutsu to mind **** them as he vaporized them easily. This isn't a fight between the most powerful here, it's a fight between the deadliest. Itachi isn't as strong as say Madara or Hashirama, but if you were Hashirama, would you rather be faced with a meteor falling on you, or a stab with the Totsuka blade that would seal you in a drunken stupor for all eternity? Prolly the meteor. thumb up

The Kage's have NO defense against someone faster, deadlier, smarter, and with better hair than them. Especially when they couldn't even get past his base Genjutsu that he can use from continents away on multiple people.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
^ That scan states that Itachi wouldn't be able to control so many people at once.

Itachi would get one Kage with it at best before the others tag him. Plus A's faster than Itachi so that's a plus.

The scan states he wouldn't be able to control the entire alliance at once, five people though? That's child's play.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by TheTyrant
He wouldn't be able to control so many people at once, but it is still clearly implying that he can control multiple people.

Wasn't RM Naruto faster than A? Or was that BM Naruto? If it was RM Naruto, then A's not faster than Itachi, lol. And only one who can do anything against Susano'o is Onoki. Other ones would be utterly useless.

Itachi is the same person who casually one-paneled Orochimaru and Deidara without even activating Mangekyo Sharingan. Orochimaru and Deidara would be stronger than any current Kage other than A and Onoki.

We still have yet to see Itachi use Tsukuyomi on more than one person at a time. Then there's the issue that it requires direct eye contact which most of the Kages here can avoid.

That can safely be chalked up to CIS considering even Nagato was able to tag Naruto in KCM.

With genjutsu that they were already under plus he was fighting both of them one on one. Unless is specified to be Tsukuyomi, the Kages shouldn't have a problem breaking each other out of regular sharinigan genjustsu.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
http://i17.mangapanda.com/naruto/147/naruto-2928.jpg

When Itachi did this, Kakashi was still in Tsukiyomi, as they hadn't brought Tsunade back to the village yet. I rest my case.
.
No he wasn't. He was reeling from the effect but he was already out of it by the time Itachi cast it on Sasuke. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-147-18/naruto/chapter-142.html

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta




See the lower rings of the building? That are covered in Amaterasu? This proves Itachi can coat his surroundings in Amaterasu which could be used as a defense.


Still doesn't counter the fact that A is faster than Amateratsu, Gaara can block/fly all the kages away from it, Itachi can't do much else if he's casting it, and if this is mortal Itachi, then he's going to be on his last legs from using that much chakra.


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Here is Danzo clearly refuting what was stated earlier, as he's actually seen Itachi in action. Stating that Itachi's Tsukiyomi was superior to Sasuke's by far implies that his Mangekyo altogether was better, including his Amaterasu and Susano'o. Sasuke couldn't even use Susano'o full with armor until he got EMS. They said ONE time that it was amazing that Sasuke could alter Amaterasu's path, something Itachi couldn't do, but he clearly did so when fighting Sasuke, proving them wrong before they even said that.

Again what does that have to do with Itachi actually landing an attack on any of the Kages? Dude still doesn't have an answer to the uber Kage combo attack or the huge Particle Style cube that both Onoki can make with Tsunade's help. Also Sasuke's Enton have had multiple showing of being superior to what Itachi could do with it. Uncluding but not limited to the Amateratsu spikes, shuriken, Susanoo sword and even coating his katana with the stuff.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
No he wasn't. He was reeling from the effect but he was already out of it by the time Itachi cast it on Sasuke. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-147-18/naruto/chapter-142.html


Still doesn't counter the fact that A is faster than Amateratsu, Gaara can block/fly all the kages away from it, Itachi can't do much else if he's casting it, and if this is mortal Itachi, then he's going to be on his last legs from using that much chakra.



Again what does that have to do with Itachi actually landing an attack on any of the Kages? Dude still doesn't have an answer to the uber Kage combo attack or the huge Particle Style cube that both Onoki can make with Tsunade's help. Also Sasuke's Enton have had multiple showing of being superior to what Itachi could do with it. Uncluding but not limited to the Amateratsu spikes, shuriken, Susanoo sword and even coating his katana with the stuff.

http://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/172/naruto-1961831.jpg

See? Tsunade had just finished healing Sasuke, and she had to go heal Kakashi afterwords. Unless you're implying that Sasuke with two double tomoe sharingan has more resistance to Tsukiyomi than Kakashi with a partially developed Mangekyou sharingan, and that he would need healed even after two weeks of being out of Tsukyomi, then yes, Kakashi was still under Tsukiyomi when Itachi used it on Sasuke, and they were both under it at the same time until Tsunade healed them.

A might be faster than Amaterasu, but what good is that when Itachi who is faster than him, is blitzing him and shooting it at him from all directions so he can't dodge? That's like saying Naruto couldn't hit Madara with Rasenshuriken. Madara is faster than Rasenshuriken, but Naruto is much faster than Madara, so it doesn't matter because he can easily get blitzed so Naruto can find an opening to hit him. Just like with Itachi and A.

Again, Itachi stated the Yata mirror could block any attack, and the particle style, even enhanced, still has about as much push-force as a regular fireball, and it can't de-materialize the Yata mirror which blocks any attack and is made of fire itself, so it would be less effective against Itachi than a rasengan.

Sasuke has had much more air-time than Itachi. That's like saying Bills has better ki attacks than Whiss because all Whiss has ever done is knock him out with a neck chop for three years. Sasuke has demonstrated more, but due to statements from Danzo and Orochimaru, who have actually fought Itachi, we can easily say that Itachi has mangekyou sharingan abilities that even surpass Sasuke's EMS. Itachi in his prime one-panneled Orochimaru's full power prime with a simple genjutsu. The same Orochimaru defeated the third Hokage, who was stronger than Tsunade(not physically, but he would dominate her in a fight). Orochimaru fought four tailed Naruto and did severe damage when he was on his deathbed.

Itachi would shit on the Gokage.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
We still have yet to see Itachi use Tsukuyomi on more than one person at a time. Then there's the issue that it requires direct eye contact which most of the Kages here can avoid.

That can safely be chalked up to CIS considering even Nagato was able to tag Naruto in KCM.

With genjutsu that they were already under plus he was fighting both of them one on one. Unless is specified to be Tsukuyomi, the Kages shouldn't have a problem breaking each other out of regular sharinigan genjustsu.

Again, Kakashi was still under Tsukiyomi when Itachi used it on Sasuke, in other words, he used it on two people at once. thumb up

Nagato was faster and stronger than the Pain's Naruto fought, as well as being able to use all of the path abilities at once. Edo Tensei Nagato would probably beat current Naruto in all honesty. Itachi raped that Nagato with one attack, the Nagato who was faster and stronger than the tag-team of Killer Bee and Naruto. thumb up

The Kage's wouldn't have time to save each other as 1. Itachi can use that Genjutsu on multiple people at once from continents away, 2. Even if he only used it on one or two people right off the bat, they still can't be broken out of it before they get vaporized by Amaterasu or sealed with Totsuka blade, and 3. Itachi would use it on all of them at once before vaporizing them all with Amaterasu right off the bat with no trouble at all.

They have no counters against him. Honestly, he's probably the deadliest character in all of Naruto. The only one I could see legitimately beating him would be Hashirama and Madara, and possibly Obito and definitely Jyuubito. He's not the strongest or fastest, but he has hax abilities that MORE than make up for any lacks he might have.

AuraAngel
....

You have misunderstood Tsukuyomi to an astounding degree.

wakkawakkawakka
Um...yeah I'm not going to even bother reading all of that.

As I've said before Itachi could beta any of the Kage's here one on one but looses if he's fighting them together. I rest my case.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka We still have yet to see Itachi use Tsukuyomi on more than one person at a time.


Uh, did you read my post? Kakashi told Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes when Itachi activated Tsukuyomi.

Just because he hasn't done it, doesn't mean that he can't. Nothing suggest what you're claiming.



So they're going to look at his feet while he lits them on Amaterasu or puts Totsuka through their hearts? And how does this help them against basic genjutsu?



Except Nagato's a top tier character. He just can't move his legs, that doesn't mean his upper body movements or ability to use his jutsu are going to be slow.



How. when all five of them are under his genjutsu? We're talking about the best genjutsu user in the show, next to perhaps Shisui.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Uh, did you read my post? Kakashi told Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes when Itachi activated Tsukuyomi.

Just because he hasn't done it, doesn't mean that he can't. Nothing suggest what you're claiming.


By that logic why didn't he try casting it on both Bee and Naruto at the same time? Assuming its as unbreakable as its been hyped up to be and Bee's already negated a weaker version of it they would be completely vulnerable to it.

But that's just it, Itachi hasn't been shown using Tsukuyomi like that so we can't just assume he can till we have some solid feats.

Originally posted by TheTyrant




So they're going to look at his feet while he lits them on Amaterasu or puts Totsuka through their hearts? And how does this help them against basic genjutsu?

Gaara can fly, A can avoid direct eye contact(which is required for Tsykuyomi to work) and if his gaze is focused on one Kage four other can make up for it. Onoki along with the rest of the Kage have shown at least some prior ability to negated genjutsu so yeah the basic stuff would be a waste of time.

Originally posted by TheTyrant


Except Nagato's a top tier character. He just can't move his legs, that doesn't mean his upper body movements or ability to use his jutsu are going to be slow.


Nagato hasn't shown speedster qualities though neither with his full body or paths. And considering how little Naruto was using the speed his KCM gave him I have reason to doubt that Nagato actually caught him in a blitz.

Originally posted by TheTyrant

How. when all five of them are under his genjutsu? We're talking about the best genjutsu user in the show, next to perhaps Shisui.
He's not getting all five at once. Now even Madara with 25 clones could get all five Kages under genjutsu at once. Mei's the most likely to get caught out of the five and even that might be a stretch.

Edit: Hold up...I just now realized that they're up against Edo Itachi. Which means he could possibly use his MS techs as much as he wanted on top of Izanami(though it would hinder more than help IMO). I still think the Kages win but it'll be much tougher.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Um...yeah I'm not going to even bother reading all of that.

As I've said before Itachi could beta any of the Kage's here one on one but looses if he's fighting them together. I rest my case.

What case? All you've said is that Itachi loses. You've posted nothing to counter what I've said, shown and proven other than your biased opinions. You have no case, and Itachi solos. I rest my case.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by AuraAngel
....

You have misunderstood Tsukuyomi to an astounding degree.

How's that? There's not much to misunderstand. He traps you in a world of genjutsu where he can alter time itself, matter and even physical mass itself. He basically becomes god. He can use it on at least two people at once, and probably even more.

Why is it that you feel the need to post at all when you can't even prove a single point? You're obviously the one with a misunderstanding here, not me. thumb up

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What case? All you've said is that Itachi loses. You've posted nothing to counter what I've said, shown and proven other than your biased opinions. You have no case, and Itachi solos. I rest my case. Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How's that? There's not much to misunderstand. He traps you in a world of genjutsu where he can alter time itself, matter and even physical mass itself. He basically becomes god. He can use it on at least two people at once, and probably even more.

Why is it that you feel the need to post at all when you can't even prove a single point? You're obviously the one with a misunderstanding here, not me. thumb up
Itachi solos based on what? A tech that's almost entirely useless when used against a group. Yeah except for the fact that Tsukuyomi requires eye contact to work something that you seem keen on neglecting. Also the scan I showed and you showed both have Kakashi out of Tsukuyomi.

So once again you still haven't understood how Tsukuyomi is applied to combat.

AuraAngel
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How's that? There's not much to misunderstand. He traps you in a world of genjutsu where he can alter time itself, matter and even physical mass itself. He basically becomes god. He can use it on at least two people at once, and probably even more.

Why is it that you feel the need to post at all when you can't even prove a single point? You're obviously the one with a misunderstanding here, not me. thumb up

You seem to be under the impression that Kakashi and Sasuke, while in their coma, were still under the genjutsu. So I will show you why you're wrong.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-147-17/naruto/chapter-142.html

That is what the world looks like when Kakashi(and Sasuke) are under the effects of Tsukuomi. It is all black and stuff. It is clearly an illusion.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-147-18/naruto/chapter-142.html

The very next page has Kakashi fully concsious of the world around him. He can hear Asuma, can see Kisame, and basically the whole setting as it was before Itachi cast Tsukuyomi. At this point the genjutsu is over. He is no longer under it.

Kakashi collapsed because the pain he felt was 3 days worth of torture. He was clearly struggling to stay conscience before Guy arrived. The reason Tsukuyomi is so powerful is because it all takes place in a single moment of time. You can't break them out of it because by the time you go to do so it is already too late. Kakashi says as much.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-262-6/naruto/chapter-257.html

Chiyo explains how to fight a normal Sharingan and genjutsu.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-262-6/naruto/chapter-257.html

Kakashi says flat out that you can't cancel Tsukuyomi. It simply works too fast.

Tsunade didn't break them out of the Tsukuyomi. They'd been out of it a second after it was cast because that is how the technique works. Tsunade merely told the brain to wake up because it didn't actually have any injuries to worry about.

So yeah you have misunderstood Tsukuomi to an astounding degree.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by AuraAngel
You seem to be under the impression that Kakashi and Sasuke, while in their coma, were still under the genjutsu. So I will show you why you're wrong.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-147-17/naruto/chapter-142.html

That is what the world looks like when Kakashi(and Sasuke) are under the effects of Tsukuomi. It is all black and stuff. It is clearly an illusion.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-147-18/naruto/chapter-142.html

The very next page has Kakashi fully concsious of the world around him. He can hear Asuma, can see Kisame, and basically the whole setting as it was before Itachi cast Tsukuyomi. At this point the genjutsu is over. He is no longer under it.

Kakashi collapsed because the pain he felt was 3 days worth of torture. He was clearly struggling to stay conscience before Guy arrived. The reason Tsukuyomi is so powerful is because it all takes place in a single moment of time. You can't break them out of it because by the time you go to do so it is already too late. Kakashi says as much.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-262-6/naruto/chapter-257.html

Chiyo explains how to fight a normal Sharingan and genjutsu.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-262-6/naruto/chapter-257.html

Kakashi says flat out that you can't cancel Tsukuyomi. It simply works too fast.

Tsunade didn't break them out of the Tsukuyomi. They'd been out of it a second after it was cast because that is how the technique works. Tsunade merely told the brain to wake up because it didn't actually have any injuries to worry about.

So yeah you have misunderstood Tsukuomi to an astounding degree.

What the **** difference does it make? You clearly have no brain power to understand anything I've said here, so let me spell it out for you.

If they are both under the effects of Tsukiyomi, then it is being used on both of them at once. I never said Itachi could use Tsukiyomi on all the Kage literally just by using it once. He could use it on them all in an instant though by using it on them individually, meaning they would all be under it at the same time. I know Tsukiyomi doesn't last indefinitely until Tsunade heals you, but the effects of it pretty much do. If you get sealed by the Totsuka blade, it's not still stabbing you while you're sealed, but you're still under its effects. It's the same principal. If any of them were tagged by Tsukiyomi, they would be done for. Tsunade wouldn't be able to heal them without giving Itachi an opportunity to vaporize them both with Amaterasu.

If two people or more can be effected by it at once, you guessed it, he can use it on two people or more at once. thumb up

I even stated before you made this comment that Itachi alters time itself with Tsukiyomi. I'm well aware of that. However, its effects last on the person until they get healed, which means it's a basic insta-kill for whoever gets hit with it and whoever tries to heal them in this scenario.

So yeah, you are obviously unable to comprehend the English language to the point where you can gather information from simple context clues. I would have spelled it out simply for you earlier if you had just explained that you were in third grade. My mistake.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Itachi solos based on what? A tech that's almost entirely useless when used against a group. Yeah except for the fact that Tsukuyomi requires eye contact to work something that you seem keen on neglecting. Also the scan I showed and you showed both have Kakashi out of Tsukuyomi.

So once again you still haven't understood how Tsukuyomi is applied to combat.

Are you retarded?

Tsukiyomi is most useful when used against a small group. The reason being, as Kakashi explained in the scan that AuraAngel guy posted, is that you can't break someone out of it and you need to heal them for them to continue being useful, giving Itachi an opening to attack them both.

I have stated several times that Tsukiyomi requires eye contact. You're neglecting my previous posts. What I'm saying is that none of them are skilled enough to be able to instantly adapt to fighting by looking at just his legs. Only Gai was able to do that, and only because he had adapted to doing so just in order to avoid Genjutsu.

Kakashi was under the effects of Tsukiyomi until Tsunade healed him. As AuraAngel pointed out(and me earlier, except I didn't simplify it for first graders like you to understand), the strength of Tsukiyomi lies in the fact that you can't break someone out of it because it only lasts for an instant. Then, the effects stay with the person until they are healed. He could easily use it to maim one person, then kill that person and Tsunade when she tries to heal them.

However, I haven't been talking about Tsukiyomi this entire argument. I know it's impractical for him to use in this fight. It simply uses too much chakra, and would be too much of a risk to use that much chakra just to maim one person when he has five to fight.

He would simply use base Genjutsu to distract them all at once, which would only be for a few seconds, but would definitely be enough time for him to land Amaterasu on them all. It's that simple. A single Genjutsu as a distraction, then an Amaterasu shotgun to finish them off. The only ones who could arguably survive are Gaara, because his sand automatically protects him(or at least it used to, I don't remember if it does anymore or not), and Tsunade, because she would recover from the pain of Amaterasu instantly and use mitotic regeneration to regenerate as she was being burned. In either case though, Itachi still wins by stabbing through Gaara's sand with the Totsuka blade, and/or by letting Tsunade burn her chakra away as Amaterasu burns her flesh away constantly until she's drained and turns to ashes.

Either way, Itachi wins pretty easily with just three or four attacks. Don't dodge the subject by saying I don't know what I'm talking about, when you're still not even debating about what I claimed Itachi would do. thumb up

AuraAngel
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What the **** difference does it make? You clearly have no brain power to understand anything I've said here, so let me spell it out for you.

If they are both under the effects of Tsukiyomi, then it is being used on both of them at once. I never said Itachi could use Tsukiyomi on all the Kage literally just by using it once. He could use it on them all in an instant though by using it on them individually, meaning they would all be under it at the same time. I know Tsukiyomi doesn't last indefinitely until Tsunade heals you, but the effects of it pretty much do. If you get sealed by the Totsuka blade, it's not still stabbing you while you're sealed, but you're still under its effects. It's the same principal. If any of them were tagged by Tsukiyomi, they would be done for. Tsunade wouldn't be able to heal them without giving Itachi an opportunity to vaporize them both with Amaterasu.

If two people or more can be effected by it at once, you guessed it, he can use it on two people or more at once. thumb up

I even stated before you made this comment that Itachi alters time itself with Tsukiyomi. I'm well aware of that. However, its effects last on the person until they get healed, which means it's a basic insta-kill for whoever gets hit with it and whoever tries to heal them in this scenario.

So yeah, you are obviously unable to comprehend the English language to the point where you can gather information from simple context clues. I would have spelled it out simply for you earlier if you had just explained that you were in third grade. My mistake.

Point out anywhere in my posts where I said Tsukuyomi wouldn't affect more than one person at a time? That was not the purpose of any of my posts.

It is not. He used it twice on two different people. Under the effects of Tsukuyomi means trapped in Itachi's genjutsu world. Sasuke and Kakashi were only there for a second a piece. Both were left in comas after wards but Tsukuyomi was well and truly over. You can in no way say that this is an example of Itachi placing two people into Tsukuyomi simultaneously.

Now do I think he could use it on multiple people at once? Maybe. We've never seen it hit multiple targets but Kakashi telling Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes implies he can. Of course the implication that all 5 Kage will look into Itachi's eyes directly is foolish. It's Itachi. Why would they make eye contact with him when they all know what he can do?

Basically what you're arguing that a burn victim is still on fire because they have burns even after the fire was put out. Which is a pointless argument to be making since the much easier argument(Kakashi's statement to his pals to shut their eyes) supports your claim far more than Itachi somehow keeping Kakashi and Sasuke in a genjutsu state for weeks when he'd be miles away from either. The genjutsu was cast, and ended, on two different occasions.

Unless you truly think that Wakka believes Itachi can't cast Tsukuyomi twice. Which is not present in his/her posts at all.

As it stands I won't be giving an argument for either side here because it is my thread and I enjoy watching the debate in these cases rather than participating. But your misunderstanding of Tsukuyomi was too egregious for me to pass up commenting.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by AuraAngel

As it stands I won't be giving an argument for either side here because it is my thread and I enjoy watching the debate in these cases rather than participating.

Which must be why someone voted "Aura is a child."

Also, we both know Itachi soloes here.

dadudemon
The Raikage kills Itachi by himself.


no expression

AuraAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Which must be why someone voted "Aura is a child."

Also, we both know Itachi soloes here.

Indeed that is why it is there.

Though I am surprised that no one has voted for what I consider to be the correct answer.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Indeed that is why it is there.

Though I am surprised that no one has voted for what I consider to be the correct answer.

Was me. excellent

"The male kage fight along side him because he is so attractive?"

Bentley
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Indeed that is why it is there.

Though I am surprised that no one has voted for what I consider to be the correct answer.

So Aura is a child was not your answer?

TheTyrant
Originally posted by dadudemon
The Raikage kills Itachi by himself.


no expression

Nothing suggests that Raikage would have a chance against Itachi in a 1-on-1. In the manga, Kishimoto would have Itachi one-panel the Raikage with a casual genjutsu.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Point out anywhere in my posts where I said Tsukuyomi wouldn't affect more than one person at a time? That was not the purpose of any of my posts.

It is not. He used it twice on two different people. Under the effects of Tsukuyomi means trapped in Itachi's genjutsu world. Sasuke and Kakashi were only there for a second a piece. Both were left in comas after wards but Tsukuyomi was well and truly over. You can in no way say that this is an example of Itachi placing two people into Tsukuyomi simultaneously.

Now do I think he could use it on multiple people at once? Maybe. We've never seen it hit multiple targets but Kakashi telling Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes implies he can. Of course the implication that all 5 Kage will look into Itachi's eyes directly is foolish. It's Itachi. Why would they make eye contact with him when they all know what he can do?

Basically what you're arguing that a burn victim is still on fire because they have burns even after the fire was put out. Which is a pointless argument to be making since the much easier argument(Kakashi's statement to his pals to shut their eyes) supports your claim far more than Itachi somehow keeping Kakashi and Sasuke in a genjutsu state for weeks when he'd be miles away from either. The genjutsu was cast, and ended, on two different occasions.

Unless you truly think that Wakka believes Itachi can't cast Tsukuyomi twice. Which is not present in his/her posts at all.

As it stands I won't be giving an argument for either side here because it is my thread and I enjoy watching the debate in these cases rather than participating. But your misunderstanding of Tsukuyomi was too egregious for me to pass up commenting.

I'm legitimately beginning to think you have some kind of debilitating mental condition.

You insinuated that Itachi couldn't use it on more than one person at a time in ALL of your posts.

Yes, he used it twice on two different people, but they were both being effected by it at the same time. I'm not arguing that "a burn victim is still on fire because they have burns even after the fire was put out", i'm arguing that a burn victim is still under the effects of the fire after the fire is put out, genius. You obviously have no clue what this entire argument has been about in the first place, so let me re-explain it to you.

If I am shot in the stomach, I will not be getting continuously shot in the stomach. It will happen once for an instant, but I will continue to bleed out, experience pain, die, and be UNDER THE EFFECTS of the bullet, will I not? Unless a surgeon treats me, I will not heal, and eventually will die. Is that not the EXACT same phucking thing that happens to someone who's fallen prey to Tsukiyomi? The coma induced by Tsukiyomi is an EFFECT of Tsukiyomi. Being under a coma that was induced by Tsukiyomi is being under the EFFECT of Tsukiyomi, is it not?

How does the "close your eyes" argument hold any weight whatsoever? Kakashi told them to keep there eyes closed so they wouldn't get trapped in Tsukiyomi, not because Itachi could use it on them all at once. Kakashi was looking out for them individually, because if one of them got hit by Tsukiyomi, they would have most likely died as neither had Sharingan.

My argument is that no, Itachi can't use Tsukiyomi once to effect five people. He can, however, use it five times simultaneously to effect all five.

Again though, that would take too much of his chakra, and isn't how he would fight them. That hasn't been my argument in the first place. I KNOW he would avoid Tsukiyomi in this fight. He would simply use a finger-Genjutsu to distract the team for a few seconds, giving him enough time to land an Amaterasu-shotgun, which would vaporize all of them within two attacks.

You're still trying to dodge the argument itself, and claim I don't know what I'm talking about, when you are making yourself look stupid by avoiding what the thread is about. Who would win, Itachi or the Gokage. Not "How does Tsukiyomi work", which I would still crush you in, as you think that the coma induced from Tsukiyomi isn't an effect of Tsukiyomi. That's literally saying "The coma induced from Tsukiyomi isn't a coma induced from Tsukiyomi.", I mean shit, do you even realize how stupid you come off when sticking to your sinking ship of an argument, in a futile attempt to change the ****ing subject? You look like a ****ing dumb ass, and I'm not even saying that to be rude. no

wakkawakkawakka
I have a question to ask concerning the Tsukuyomi argument. So if Madara with 25 pairs of sharingans couldn't genjutsu all the Kage at once exactly how would Itachi with only one eye for it get all five Kages? In order for it to work he'd have to either get in close, which would be suicide if he tried that with Tsunade or A, or try to catch one of the Kages with it mid combat in which any of the other 4 kages could compensate so it still wouldn't work. Then you have one guy who's fast enough to avoid Itachi's eyes outright so the taking out all five Kages with Tsukuyomi still doesn't work.

Susanoo and Amateratsu can both be countered with teamwork plus he has no answer to the combo-Kage attack.

Bentley
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I'm legitimately beginning to think you have some kind of debilitating mental condition.

Legitimately? Nope, not ever thumb down

Hope you grow out of insulting people man.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
Legitimately? Nope, not ever thumb down

Hope you grow out of insulting people man.

What? That entire post made no sense. I said I was legitimately beginning to think that guy had a mental handicap, and you claim I don't? You can't read my mind, so... get back to failing at debates.

I'll grow out of insulting people, when people grow out of insulting me. Him repeating my posts with different wording and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about, is an insult to my intelligence. Just like you trying to lecture me because you haven't been able to counter anything I've posted on these forums since I started here, is an insult to my intelligence.

Me saying that had nothing to do with you, and if you wanted to get through to me at all, you should have attempted to "legitimately" challenge what I said by providing proof, which just so happens to be the purpose of these forums, not for people on a superiority trip to play the hero. thumb up

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I have a question to ask concerning the Tsukuyomi argument. So if Madara with 25 pairs of sharingans couldn't genjutsu all the Kage at once exactly how would Itachi with only one eye for it get all five Kages? In order for it to work he'd have to either get in close, which would be suicide if he tried that with Tsunade or A, or try to catch one of the Kages with it mid combat in which any of the other 4 kages could compensate so it still wouldn't work. Then you have one guy who's fast enough to avoid Itachi's eyes outright so the taking out all five Kages with Tsukuyomi still doesn't work.

Susanoo and Amateratsu can both be countered with teamwork plus he has no answer to the combo-Kage attack.

I also have a question concerning the Tsukiyomi argument.

Why do you think that it has anything to do with me, and holds any merit to my arguments, when it was originally brought up by someone else(theTyrant)?

I have stated MULTIPLE times, that Itachi would NOT use Tsukiyomi against the Kage's. He would use SIMPLE finger Genjutsu to restrain them all, and simply vaporize them with an Amaterasu-shotgun.

Why have you dodged this question for so long? You are beginning to look like you don't know what to say to it... oh wait.

What about the Kage combo? First off, nothing they could do would be enough to get past the Yata mirror, which has blocked more than them all combined are capable of. Secondly, they would have NO time WHATSOEVER to land it as Itachi instantly caught them all in basic Genjutsu, and then vaporized them with Amaterasu.

They have no defense, and if they do, then explain what it is. Itachi is faster than all of them, stronger, deadlier, more perceptive, and overall VASTLY more powerful.

How is teamwork going to do anything when they are ALL being mind-raped with Genjutsu, as well as vaporized with the most deadly attack in all of Naruto?

PLEASE explain, or just admit that you've changed your opinion.

Bentley
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What? That entire post made no sense. I said I was legitimately beginning to think that guy had a mental handicap, and you claim I don't? You can't read my mind, so... get back to failing at debates.

Ok, maybe our definition of legitimacy is different, but who is exactly giving you that right? Yourself?

You're claiming that breaking the rules is legit, I'm just calling you out in that outrageous claim thumb up

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
Ok, maybe our definition of legitimacy is different, but who is exactly giving you that right? Yourself?

You're claiming that breaking the rules is legit, I'm just calling you out in that outrageous claim thumb up

No, the US constitution is giving me that right. thumb up

I didn't break any rules. I didn't bash or insult, I just stated my opinion. I only said that his posts were giving me the feeling that he was mentally handicapped. Again though, you've ignored the rest of my post so since you have nothing to contribute to the discussion... yeah, I'm done with you. wink

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
This fight would literally be child's play to Itachi. He would blitz everyone while using Genjutsu to mind **** them as he vaporized them easily. This isn't a fight between the most powerful here, it's a fight between the deadliest. Itachi isn't as strong as say Madara or Hashirama, but if you were Hashirama, would you rather be faced with a meteor falling on you, or a stab with the Totsuka blade that would seal you in a drunken stupor for all eternity? Prolly the meteor. thumb up

The Kage's have NO defense against someone faster, deadlier, smarter, and with better hair than them. Especially when they couldn't even get past his base Genjutsu that he can use from continents away on multiple people.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Itachi used Amaterasu to cover the field, spammed it to hit Sasuke, overcome his fireball, and shoot at him during the entire fight. Along with Tsukiyomi, a couple fireballs, Susano'o fully cloaked and blocking Kirirn ALL while being on his deathbed and sick, as stated by Zetsu, proves he has MORE than enough chakra to dish out a couple Tsukiyomi's, some Amaterasu coverage, Yata mirro blockage and some Totsuka blade stabs, in Edo Tensei with a smile on his face like it's nothing. This is you over exaggerating the extent that Itachi can use his MS abilities while low-balling the Kages. For instance you low-balled A's speed while not taking into account that Naruto wasn't using his KCM speed in that fight. Also Gaara has shown the ability to get around Susanoo from the inside.

Also that question wasn't directed to you specifically otherwise I would have included it in a quote. On top of that I even acknowledge my mistake of thinking that this was mortal Itachi here: Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Hold up...I just now realized that they're up against Edo Itachi. Which means he could possibly use his MS techs as much as he wanted on top of Izanami(though it would hinder more than help IMO). I still think the Kages win but it'll be much tougher.

Impediment
Consider that another warning for member bashing, SSJGGogeta. You've been told numerous times to quit your hostile attitude and stop with the insults and vulgarity, and even received a temp ban. Keep it up and you'll receive another. It's not hard to have a civil and non-hostile debate, you know.

Oh, by the way, if posting on these forums is an "insult to your intelligence" then, by all means, find another one.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
This is you over exaggerating the extent that Itachi can use his MS abilities while low-balling the Kages. For instance you low-balled A's speed while not taking into account that Naruto wasn't using his KCM speed in that fight. Also Gaara has shown the ability to get around Susanoo from the inside.

Also that question wasn't directed to you specifically otherwise I would have included it in a quote. On top of that I even acknowledge my mistake of thinking that this was mortal Itachi here:

Excuse me? Itachi has been stated to be able to use Genjutsu on multiple people from continents away. I'm pretty sure a few Kage's at close range that would be stumped by Kurenai's Genjutsu would be fodder to his. thumb up

LOLOLOLOLOLOL, Naruto was IN KCM mode, and FIGHTING AT HIS BEST in KCM mode, yet your excuse is that he wasn't using KCM speed? LOL. That's got to be up there with the most fanboy-ish posts I've ever seen on here.

When has Gaara done that? I don't recall him ever going inside of Susano'o. Not that it would matter, considering you're still dodging what I've been trying to get across for several posts.

I didn't read that comment since it was posted to the Tyrant guy. It's fine that you didn't notice this was Edo Itachi, but that really has nothing to do with this. This all all something Itachi could do normally. That's why it's been stated in the manga that only someone with Sharingan could beat him. He's simply too deadly with his jutsu's and too skilled with Genjutsu for someone without it to beat him, other than the Ten Tails jinchuriki, or possibly Hashirama.

Again, for the last time, either explain what the Kage's could do against Itachi's Genjutsu before he would have the chance to kill them all, admit that you were wrong, or just tell me that you're too close-minded to change your opinion so I can stop wasting my time with you. I've posted scans and facts to prove my point, you're simply making outrageous claim after claim. It's ridiculous, and I don't want to keep this pointless argument up if you're not going to contribute anything other than your biased opinion. thumb up

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Impediment
Consider that another warning for member bashing, SSJGGogeta. You've been told numerous times to quit your hostile attitude and stop with the insults and vulgarity, and even received a temp ban. Keep it up and you'll receive another. It's not hard to have a civil and non-hostile debate, you know.

Oh, by the way, if posting on these forums is an "insult to your intelligence" then, by all means, find another one.

You know what? Thank you. Thank you for actually approaching this without hostility. I won't say who, but another mod pissed me off when he did what you just did. He did it rudely though, and basically forced me to reply with even more hostility. (IMO)

Since you seem like a nice guy though, just trying to comply with the report Bentley sent, I'll actually try to be less rude on here. You have my word. In fact, before sending my previous post, I actually toned it down severely to assure you wouldn't be displeased.

Impediment
Thank you for that post. I meant what I said, by the way; It's not hard to be civil and non-hostile, even if some posts do make you infuriated sometimes. Trust me, there are some posts I see here on these boards that make me want to punch a 5 year old because of rampant stupidity. However, the best way to handle situations like that are to just not be so reactionary and just go with the flow. If someone keeps making posts that are redundant or disrupt the flow of the thread then, by all means, hit the report button and send one to me so I can handle the situation. Eezy peezy. I'm glad to see that you're an active poster and are contributing to the board since we need more action. thumb up

NemeBro
Originally posted by dadudemon
The Raikage kills Itachi by himself.


no expression crylaugh

I nearly peed. haermm

dadudemon
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Nothing suggests that Itachi would have a chance against Itachi in a 1-on-1. In the manga, Kishimoto would have Itachi one-panel the Raikage with a casual genjutsu.

I disagree.

Nothing suggests that Itachi would have a chance against the Raikage in a 1 v 1. In the manga, Kishimoto made it pretty obvious that Raikage is pretty much the end all be all of 1 v 1 fights minus Minato*. Itachi literally does not have the speed or reflexes to keep up with the Raikage. Itachi will not get as far as Sasuke did against the Raikage because Itachi is not as fast as Sasuke AND Itachi does not have as much Amaterasu skill as Sasuke.


*Madara and Obito do not count.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Excuse me? Itachi has been stated to be able to use Genjutsu on multiple people from continents away. I'm pretty sure a few Kage's at close range that would be stumped by Kurenai's Genjutsu would be fodder to his. thumb up

If its not Tsukuyomi they shouldn't have a problem with it. All of the Kages know who Itachi is and what he's capable of based off of conversations involving him in canon. Also there's this neat panel of Onoki breaking A out of a regular Sharingan genjutsu: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/10

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta


LOLOLOLOLOLOL, Naruto was IN KCM mode, and FIGHTING AT HIS BEST in KCM mode, yet your excuse is that he wasn't using KCM speed? LOL. That's got to be up there with the most fanboy-ish posts I've ever seen on here.

When has Gaara done that? I don't recall him ever going inside of Susano'o. Not that it would matter, considering you're still dodging what I've been trying to get across for several posts.


Show me a scan of Naruto moving at Yellow flash speeds while fighting Nagato and Itachi. If you can't then that mean Nagato is not faster than Naruto. Using your A/B/C logic would make Kabuto the second fastest character in the Narutoverse for tagging Itachi and that's just absurd.

As for Gaara I'm glad that you asked here's yet another set of scans:
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/12
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/13


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Again, for the last time, either explain what the Kage's could do against Itachi's Genjutsu before he would have the chance to kill them all, admit that you were wrong, or just tell me that you're too close-minded to change your opinion so I can stop wasting my time with you. I've posted scans and facts to prove my point, you're simply making outrageous claim after claim. It's ridiculous, and I don't want to keep this pointless argument up if you're not going to contribute anything other than your biased opinion. thumb up
I've already done this but I don't have a problem refining my stance. A is fast enough to avoid direct eye contact(which once again is required for Tsukuyomi to work), Mei could also use her hidden mist tech to kill visibility, Tsundae could possibly repair mental trauma to someone who's been caught in genjutsu if she can't break them out of it similar to how she healed Kakashi and Sasuke. Then there's Gaara who could avoid looking at Itachi directly with his third eye tech and Onoki who could break people out of basic genjutsu.

Now answer my question which you still appear to be dodging. Exactly what is Itachi going to do against the Kage combo tech? Considering its Omni-directional, the Yata mirror is not going to cut it.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree.

Nothing suggests that Itachi would have a chance against the Raikage in a 1 v 1. In the manga, Kishimoto made it pretty obvious that Raikage is pretty much the end all be all of 1 v 1 fights minus Minato*. Itachi literally does not have the speed or reflexes to keep up with the Raikage. Itachi will not get as far as Sasuke did against the Raikage because Itachi is not as fast as Sasuke AND Itachi does not have as much Amaterasu skill as Sasuke.


*Madara and Obito do not count.
Oh, you was just joking. lol

dadudemon
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I've already done this but I don't have a problem refining my stance. A is fast enough to avoid direct eye contact(which once again is required for Tsukuyomi to work), Mei could also use her hidden mist tech to kill visibility, Tsundae could possibly repair mental trauma to someone who's been caught in genjutsu if she can't break them out of it similar to how she healed Kakashi and Sasuke. Then there's Gaara who could avoid looking at Itachi directly with his third eye tech and Onoki who could break people out of basic genjutsu.

You win.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka By that logic why didn't he try casting it on both Bee and Naruto at the same time? Assuming its as unbreakable as its been hyped up to be and Bee's already negated a weaker version of it they would be completely vulnerable to it.

Because he didn't use the Mangekyo Sharingan while fighting them and wasn't able to freely control his bod, nor did he get to go all out. So your point here is moot.

B fell for one of Itachi's basic genjutsus during that fight though. And indeed, there would be no breaking out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2d8nak6.png

I think Naruto knows what he's talking about.



We have Kakashi telling 2 other people to not look into Itachi's eyes while he activated Tsukuyomi and then we also have Shikaku saying that Itachi can put multiple people under his genjutsu. So why are we not allowed to put two and two together?




He's getting put under genjutsu from the get-go. There won't be no flying for him, at least in the real world.



They've never fought Itachi and don't even know a thing about Tsukuyomi, so how would they know to avoid making eye-contact with him? And again, Itachi can use his regular high-level genjutsu without his eyes. See what happened to Orochimaru and Naruto.



You have to keep in mind that Itachi's basic genjutsus are in different league than other people's genjutsus. Or are you going to tell me that Deidara and Orochimaru are going to get wrecked by just any genjutsu? lol



His Deva Path was going toe-to-toe with KN6 Naruto who is roughly around RM Naruto. Nagato >> Deva Path, stated on-panel by someone who had fought both. CIS is not a good argument when there's only one author and one storyline. That shit only runs with comic books or when there are multiple adaptations of a manga series.



Madara didn't try to genjutsu the five Kage as far as I recall. Feel free to prove me wrong with scans.



Edo Tensei Itachi is a nerfed Itachi....

dadudemon
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Edo Tensei Itachi is a nerfed Itachi....


According to Madara, that's true (it was so true that the physical bodied Madara owned the shit out of some ET heavy hitters once he got his real body...the results are: faster reflexes and speedier attacks (a real body appears to be more responsive). The only difference between ET Itachi and regular Itachi is regular Itachi just has low stamina.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by dadudemon
According to Madara, that's true (it was so true that the physical bodied Madara owned the shit out of some ET heavy hitters once he got his real body...the results are: faster reflexes and speedier attacks (a real body appears to be more responsive). The only difference between ET Itachi and regular Itachi is regular Itachi just has low stamina.

Clearly, Hashirama was nerfed as well in Edo Tensei form. so why would it not be true for everyone?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If its not Tsukuyomi they shouldn't have a problem with it. All of the Kages know who Itachi is and what he's capable of based off of conversations involving him in canon. Also there's this neat panel of Onoki breaking A out of a regular Sharingan genjutsu: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/10


Show me a scan of Naruto moving at Yellow flash speeds while fighting Nagato and Itachi. If you can't then that mean Nagato is not faster than Naruto. Using your A/B/C logic would make Kabuto the second fastest character in the Narutoverse for tagging Itachi and that's just absurd.

As for Gaara I'm glad that you asked here's yet another set of scans:
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/12
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/13



I've already done this but I don't have a problem refining my stance. A is fast enough to avoid direct eye contact(which once again is required for Tsukuyomi to work), Mei could also use her hidden mist tech to kill visibility, Tsundae could possibly repair mental trauma to someone who's been caught in genjutsu if she can't break them out of it similar to how she healed Kakashi and Sasuke. Then there's Gaara who could avoid looking at Itachi directly with his third eye tech and Onoki who could break people out of basic genjutsu.

Now answer my question which you still appear to be dodging. Exactly what is Itachi going to do against the Kage combo tech? Considering its Omni-directional, the Yata mirror is not going to cut it.

You're still dodging my question. Shikaku stated that Itachi could use Genjutsu on mutliple people from continents away at the same time. What are the Kage going to do when they're all caught in Genjutsu right off the bat and then vaporized with Amaterasu that they don't have the means to dodge?

If it's not Tsukiyomi, they still all get wrecked by it. Itachi's Genjutsu is incomparable to others. Unless you're saying that Kurenai would also one panel Orochimaru, and Deidara, that is the most retarded argument I've ever heard. Obito said Sasuke's Genjutsu was even better than his, and Danzo said that Itachi's was as above Sasuke's as heaven is from Earth. Itachi has literally the best Genjutsu in the series. Genjutsu that allowed him to one panel Orochimaru without Mangekyo sharingan, an even stronger Orochimaru in his prime than the one that was able to best Jiraiya and Tsunade even with his arms dead. Jiraiya alone was said at that point to be more powerful than Madara(without rinnegan), by Itachi when he told Kisame that Jiraiya would defeat even the Akatsuki's leader. Itachi knew since he killed his clan that Madara was the true leader of Akatsuki, not Obito and not Pain.

Orochimaru has some splendid feats that put him around Madara's level. These feats include beating Jiraiya in his prime, who would be around the level of Hashirama considering he could defeat all the Pains at once when he was over 50 years old, killing the third Hokage without suffering any injury other than the loss of his arms for a short period, and besting Jiraiya and Tsunade at the same time without his arms. Itachi one paneling someone who did all that easily proves he would shit on the Kage with his Genjutsu.

Orochimaru would be able to defeat any two kage at the same time, and Itachi one paneled him with Genjutsu the Kage would stand no chance against it.

What? Naruto didn't use Yellow flash against them. I'm not arguing Itachi is faster than the Yellow flash jutsu, I'm saying he's faster than ANY Naruto. While Naruto could use Yellow flash to avoid him, he'd still get blitzed by Itachi just using his normal speed, as demonstrated by him dominating someone who soloed him AND Killer Bee at the same time. Naruto without Yellow flash isn't that fast at all. He got dominated by the third Raikage's speed, and A was the fastest Raikage, and Sasuke with a newly awakened, premature Mangekyo kept up with his speed while they fought. Raikage would get dominated by Itachi's or Nagato's speed.

Oh, so Gaara's SAND can get in Susano'o, and not him. Yeah, I already knew that. Again though, what will that do when all the Kage are trapped in Genjutsu at once. I know individually that the Kage could save each other from basic Genjutsu, but what will they do when they're ALL caught in it at once? Nothing.

The Kage combo tech? Which one? It doesn't matter anyway, because they're still not getting through his Susano'o, Yata mirror, and his Genjutsu that he can use on a fly on even the fastest speedsters. No matter what, Gaara's sand isn't enough to do anything to Itachi, when Itachi could just use his Susano'o to easily stab through his defenses, or use Genjutsu on him to create an opening for Amaterasu.

One last time. How will the Kage get past the first five seconds of the fight, when Itachi would instantly capture them all in Genjutsu that they have been proven to be unable to escape, before instantly vaporizing them all with a single Amaterasu shotgun? The only people who can legitimately beat Itachi if he was actually trying to kill them are MS/EMS Sasuke, Obito/Jyuubito, Madara and possibly Hashirama. Any other characters have no defense against instant Genjutsu/Amaterasu combo. No one, not Naruto, not Minato, not the Gokage team, not anyone other than the ones I listed and possibly a few others that I can't think of right now. Not even other Genjutsu experts like Kurenai, because again, Itachi is the best Genjutsu user in the series.

It's not a matter of "can he survive the Kage combo", it's a matter of can they survive Amaterasu when they can't dodge it? Which is an obvious no. thumb up

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Clearly, Hashirama was nerfed as well in Edo Tensei form. so why would it not be true for everyone?

That was kind of obvious even before Madara confirmed it. Take Kakuzu and Sasori for instance: they were definitely more powerful alive than dead. However Itachi is like Hiruzen in that he can use his most powerful tech more frequently due to Edo regen and unlimited chakra. Mortal Itachi, though more powerful, wouldn't have that luxury.

wakkawakkawakka
I'd hate to double post but it wouldn't be fair if I didn't address the meat of the counter-argument.


Originally posted by TheTyrant
Because he didn't use the Mangekyo Sharingan while fighting them and wasn't able to freely control his bod, nor did he get to go all out. So your point here is moot.

B fell for one of Itachi's basic genjutsus during that fight though. And indeed, there would be no breaking out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2d8nak6.png

I think Naruto knows what he's talking about.


Okay I can buy Itachi being held back by the Edo. But Bee still shouldn't be that concerned with Tsukuyomi being a perfect host and all which would make him all the more vulnerable. Just seems weird not to take that opportunity. Bee also broke out of the basic stuff IIRC.




Originally posted by TheTyrant

We have Kakashi telling 2 other people to not look into Itachi's eyes while he activated Tsukuyomi and then we also have Shikaku saying that Itachi can put multiple people under his genjutsu. So why are we not allowed to put two and two together?


He's getting put under genjutsu from the get-go. There won't be no flying for him, at least in the real world.


Better to be cautionsI supposed and considering Kurenai had already fallen for Itachi's counter genjutsu it was a good idea. Mutliple genjutsu doesn't necessarily mean Tsukuyomi nor does it mean he could do it to multiple people simultaneously.

As for Gaara, it'd be unlikely he'd get caught due to him having a 3rd eye tech that would prevent direct eye contact. Even if the worse happens Tsunade could repair the damage. Also if Itachi focuses on one Kage exclusively, the remaining four could easily jump him.





Originally posted by TheTyrant

They've never fought Itachi and don't even know a thing about Tsukuyomi, so how would they know to avoid making eye-contact with him? And again, Itachi can use his regular high-level genjutsu without his eyes. See what happened to Orochimaru and Naruto.



You have to keep in mind that Itachi's basic genjutsus are in different league than other people's genjutsus. Or are you going to tell me that Deidara and Orochimaru are going to get wrecked by just any genjutsu? lol

The Kage Summit confirms that all Kages have at least some knowledge of all the Akatsuki members. Heck C even makes a comparison to Itachi based on Sasuke's showings. Orochimaru was at his most vulnerable and Naruto hadn't shown aptitude with genjutsu at all when that happened: he did get a kickass crow for his trouble.

Genjutsu is awesome in 1 on 1 battles especially to the degree Itachi has mastered them. However almost all of them bar Tsukuyomi loose their potency when there' someone to break of victim out of it.



Originally posted by TheTyrant
His Deva Path was going toe-to-toe with KN6 Naruto who is roughly around RM Naruto. Nagato >> Deva Path, stated on-panel by someone who had fought both. CIS is not a good argument when there's only one author and one storyline. That shit only runs with comic books or when there are multiple adaptations of a manga series.



Madara didn't try to genjutsu the five Kage as far as I recall. Feel free to prove me wrong with scans.

KN6 wasn't using Yellow Flash levels of speed but that is impressive for Deva Path. Also Nagato still wasn't that mobile even when he was restored but he did show us that Path Powers work just find on KCM Naruto. The CIS argument in the case of Edo Nagato still stands considering we don't Naruto using his uber speed much at all, well at least not until the 3rd Raikage fight.

Madara caught the fastest Kage there and put him under genjutsu and had little difficulty dealing with Mei and Gaara so it stand to reason that he had the capacity to put all five under genjutsu. By extension if Onoki and Tsunade can each avoid getting caught with 5 pairs of Sharingan looking at them, I don't see why Itachi would be that difficult to maneuver around.

Badabing
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You know what? Thank you. Thank you for actually approaching this without hostility. I won't say who, but another mod pissed me off when he did what you just did. He did it rudely though, and basically forced me to reply with even more hostility. (IMO)

Since you seem like a nice guy though, just trying to comply with the report Bentley sent, I'll actually try to be less rude on here. You have my word. In fact, before sending my previous post, I actually toned it down severely to assure you wouldn't be displeased. durpalm

petpet

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Badabing
durpalm

petpet

boxing

Badabing
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
boxing ohno


durbeware

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Badabing
ohno


durbeware

ranting

rifle

chasedown
itachi cant beat all of them at once becasue if madara wasnt an edo he would have lost against the kage

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
itachi cant beat all of them at once becasue if madara wasnt an edo he would have lost against the kage

...

Are you high?

The Kage nearly shat their pants from just witnessing Perfect Susano'o.

Not to mention that, again, ITACHI CAN USE GENJUTSU ON MULTIPLE PEOPLE AT ONCE.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
...

Are you high?

The Kage nearly shat their pants from just witnessing Perfect Susano'o.

Not to mention that, again, ITACHI CAN USE GENJUTSU ON MULTIPLE PEOPLE AT ONCE.

Yea but a living itachi is leagues less formidable than his edo tensei form.
I dont remember him putting genjutsu on more than one person with one jutsu.
A strong genjutsu anyway.

Remember that with each use of mangekyou techniques itachi becomes greatly fatigued. Raikage , tsuchikage, tsunade , garra , and mei could prove to a problem for regular living itachi. Together they have smashed thru susanoo more than a few times.

Edo tensei itachi i think would beat them though because those mangekyou techs are just too hax and he could spam them in edo form.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Yea but a living itachi is leagues less formidable than his edo tensei form.

Obviously.

Originally posted by chasedown
I dont remember him putting genjutsu on more than one person with one jutsu.
A strong genjutsu anyway.

Because it was a statement. Again though, you're failing to remember that even with weak Genjutsu, Itachi can easily catch people in it, rendering them useless without outside help. Asuma's statement proves that the Gokage have no defense against it, because he can get them all in it at once, and none of them can break out of it with their chakra because they are all demonstrably weaker than or at most equal to Biju/Jinchuriki level.

All it takes then is one amaterasu shotgun and everyone but possibly Gaara and Tsunade are dead.

Originally posted by chasedown
Remember that with each use of mangekyou techniques itachi becomes greatly fatigued.

Raikage , tsuchikage, tsunade , garra , and mei could prove to a problem for regular living itachi. Together they have smashed thru susanoo more than a few times.

Edo tensei itachi i think would beat them though because those mangekyou techs are just too hax and he could spam them in edo form.

1. Duh.

2. But not Yata mirror.

3. Duh.

thumb up

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Obviously.



Because it was a statement. Again though, you're failing to remember that even with weak Genjutsu, Itachi can easily catch people in it, rendering them useless without outside help. Asuma's statement proves that the Gokage have no defense against it, because he can get them all in it at once, and none of them can break out of it with their chakra because they are all demonstrably weaker than or at most equal to Biju/Jinchuriki level.

All it takes then is one amaterasu shotgun and everyone but possibly Gaara and Tsunade are dead.



1. Duh.

2. But not Yata mirror.

3. Duh.

thumb up

Really raikage dodged amaterasu.

Mei has hidden mist jutsu using that in combination with the kage they can beat him. They can avoid simple weak genjutsu.

Itachi alive cant beat all of them at once One on one yea but not all at the same time. You under estimate the kage. Look at exausted he was fighting sasuke. The 5 kage at once would be too much for him. Even for a great ninja like him. Now if it was edo itachi then itd be a different story itachi for the win.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Really raikage dodged amaterasu.

Mei has hidden mist jutsu using that in combination with the kage they can beat him. They can avoid simple weak genjutsu.

Itachi alive cant beat all of them at once One on one yea but not all at the same time. You under estimate the kage. Look at exausted he was fighting sasuke. The 5 kage at once would be too much for him. Even for a great ninja like him. Now if it was edo itachi then itd be a different story itachi for the win.

1. How does that matter if he's caught in genjutsu while Amaterasu is being shot at him?

2. Why does Mei's hidden mist matter if Itachi can instantly vaporize it with fire style or amaterasu shotgun?

3. How can they avoid "simple weak" genjutsu, when Itachi activates it simply by pointing, and can use it on them all at once?

4. No.

5. Itachi solo's.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. How does that matter if he's caught in genjutsu while Amaterasu is being shot at him?

2. Why does Mei's hidden mist matter if Itachi can instantly vaporize it with fire style or amaterasu shotgun?

3. How can they avoid "simple weak" genjutsu, when Itachi activates it simply by pointing, and can use it on them all at once?

4. No.

5. Itachi solo's.

The amount of exhaustion a living itachi experienced against sasuke who was much weaker than the kage at that point says otherwise.

Whose to say raikage cant blitz him while using amaterasu or tsuchikage atomically dismantling the fire. Especially if itachi cant see because the hidden mist.

Lol these are the kage were talking about not some simple chunnin. An onslaught of continous attacks could prove to be more than enough for a living itachi. Yes itachi has alot of strong mangekyou attacks but each of those attacks greatly exaust him as well as may leave him blind. He cant contiously spam them like he could in edo form

wakkawakkawakka
Wait...what? Why was this thread revived again?

Anyway Itachi could beat any of the Kage individually however he doesn't have the means to take them all on at once. Even as an Edo, he's still imited to the restrictions of his own jutsu: ex. direct eye contact.

On top of that Itachi's basic sharingan can be outright avoided by either Gaara, Mei, or A. And Itachi still doesn't have an answer to the combo tech.

You could pick which Kage he take out as an Edo: I can see him taking out at leats 1 Kage. However Itachi outright looses if he's mortal.

chasedown
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wait...what? Why was this thread revived again?

Anyway Itachi could beat any of the Kage individually however he doesn't have the means to take them all on at once. Even as an Edo, he's still imited to the restrictions of his own jutsu: ex. direct eye contact.

On top of that Itachi's basic sharingan can be outright avoided by either Gaara, Mei, or A. And Itachi still doesn't have an answer to the combo tech.

You could pick which Kage he take out as an Edo: I can see him taking out at leats 1 Kage. However Itachi outright looses if he's mortal.

I agree these are the kage hes fighting not some random chunnin ninja lol

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
The amount of exhaustion a living itachi experienced against sasuke who was much weaker than the kage at that point says otherwise.

Whose to say raikage cant blitz him while using amaterasu or tsuchikage atomically dismantling the fire. Especially if itachi cant see because the hidden mist.

Lol these are the kage were talking about not some simple chunnin. An onslaught of continous attacks could prove to be more than enough for a living itachi. Yes itachi has alot of strong mangekyou attacks but each of those attacks greatly exaust him as well as may leave him blind. He cant contiously spam them like he could in edo form

1. He still used it MULTIPLE times, to cover a small mountain sized area.

2. The fact that none of them can avoid Itachi's genjutsu that captures them all at the same time simply by him pointing, is what says that. thumb up

3. Obviously. However, this is Itachi we're talking about. Someone who was kage level by the time he was seven years old. It doesn't matter. You don't understand that Itachi only needs to use ONE mangekyo technique to win, which he is EASILY AND CASUALLY capable of doing. He doesn't need to spam them, when he can win with the simple genjutsu/Ammy combo that they have NO answer to.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wait...what? Why was this thread revived again?

Anyway Itachi could beat any of the Kage individually however he doesn't have the means to take them all on at once. Even as an Edo, he's still imited to the restrictions of his own jutsu: ex. direct eye contact.

On top of that Itachi's basic sharingan can be outright avoided by either Gaara, Mei, or A. And Itachi still doesn't have an answer to the combo tech.

You could pick which Kage he take out as an Edo: I can see him taking out at leats 1 Kage. However Itachi outright looses if he's mortal.

1. Because.

2. Direct eye contact?

http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5038.jpg

Pretty sure I debunked that argument a long time ago.

3. Gaara can avoid Itachi's genjutsu? Based on? Mei has no defense either. A fell to Madara's genjutsu, the same Madara who was stated to be lesser than Itachi in terms of genjutsu.

Now, give me A SINGLE example of why they can get past his Genjutsu/Ammy combo. How can they get past genjutsu that he can activate by pointing on multiple people, and then Amaterasu that he can use instantly on a small mountain sized area while they're under genjutsu? They SIMPLY CAN'T. There's a reason that only another Uchiha can beat Itachi.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Because.

2. Direct eye contact?

http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5038.jpg

Pretty sure I debunked that argument a long time ago.

3. Gaara can avoid Itachi's genjutsu? Based on? Mei has no defense either. A fell to Madara's genjutsu, the same Madara who was stated to be lesser than Itachi in terms of genjutsu.

Now, give me A SINGLE example of why they can get past his Genjutsu/Ammy combo. How can they get past genjutsu that he can activate by pointing on multiple people, and then Amaterasu that he can use instantly on a small mountain sized area while they're under genjutsu? They SIMPLY CAN'T. There's a reason that only another Uchiha can beat Itachi.

Justus like Tsukuyomi require direct eye contact to work. If it didn't he wouldn't have had to pull Izanami out of his ass to beat Kabuto. Amateratsu requires the target to be in view in order to hit it. Susanoo requires both eyes in order to be activated.

That scan is an example of Itachi's basic stuff, which as I said doesn't work if someone's present to break you out of it. That's a staple in Naruto lore that's been consistent even in Part 1. Oh and then there's this:http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567895.jpg
Apparently a smack to the face is all you need to break out of it.

Mei has Hidden Mist which can negate Sharingan enhanced vision. Gaara has a 3rd eye on top of flight. A is fast enough to avoid eye contact when mobile.

Except Kabuto countered every "non-Izanami" justsu Itachi had in his fight.

chasedown
The fact of the matter is during his fight with sasuke itachi was exhausted and the 5 kage are stronger than sasuke was at that point. Itachi would be overwhelmed fight all five of them at once

Its absurd to think basic genjutsu is enough to beat all of them when they have counters against suck weak genjutsu.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Justus like Tsukuyomi require direct eye contact to work. If it didn't he wouldn't have had to pull Izanami out of his ass to beat Kabuto. Amateratsu requires the target to be in view in order to hit it. Susanoo requires both eyes in order to be activated.

That scan is an example of Itachi's basic stuff, which as I said doesn't work if someone's present to break you out of it. That's a staple in Naruto lore that's been consistent even in Part 1. Oh and then there's this:http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567895.jpg
Apparently a smack to the face is all you need to break out of it.

Mei has Hidden Mist which can negate Sharingan enhanced vision. Gaara has a 3rd eye on top of flight. A is fast enough to avoid eye contact when mobile.

Except Kabuto countered every "non-Izanami" justsu Itachi had in his fight.

When did I ever say, or even insinuate, that Itachi needed Tsukiyomi to win this?

That scan supports that Itachi doesn't need eye contact to use genjutsu. Plus, a jinchuriki with a biju has more chakra than ANY of the kage. If they can't break his base genjutsu, then Raikage is completely hopeless. Anyway though, this scan will put you to rest.

http://i.imgur.com/59L12jn.jpg

Ao said Itachi could use genjutsu on not THAT many people at once from such a distance. The distance was a country away, and on an entire block of the shinobi force, meaning 2,500 ninja. If he had to stress that Itachi couldn't put them ALL under genjutsu, then he obviously could have put a lot of them under it. With the lowest low-balling we can give, it's safe to assume that he could EASILY cast it on five people from close up. From there, all he has to do is finish them with amaterasu, because they can't dodge it while under genjutsu. The only one's with feasible ways to survive are Tsunade and Gaara. Tsunade by mitotic regeneration, which will only prolong her inevitable death, and Gaara by covering himself in a sand shield right when the fight starts, and flying into the air. Either way, he still can't win this, so... Itachi. Solo's.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5050.jpg

Apparently, you're neglecting this scan because you know that I've won. With all the kage under genjutsu at once, who could break them out of it anyways? Even if they could, it would still be a cake walk for Itachi to take them out one after the other while healthy, simply with an Amaterasu for whoever's under the genjutsu, and whoever's trying to break them out of it. thumb up

Kabuto had to blind himself, and become a sage just to avoid one of Itachi's abilities. Either way, Izanami is still an Uchiha jutsu, so you bringing that up is completely redundant.

chasedown
Originally posted by chasedown
The fact of the matter is during his fight with sasuke itachi was exhausted and the 5 kage are stronger than sasuke was at that point. Itachi would be overwhelmed fight all five of them at once

Its absurd to think basic genjutsu is enough to beat all of them when they have counters against suck weak genjutsu.

As it states

yungz22
how do you base a fight entirely on speculation. For all we know it itachi can only put two ppl under genjutsu at once. and such basic gejutsu can easily be avoided anyway. your deeply underestimating the kage

if mei gets off hidden mist jutsu itachi has no way of placing them all under genjutsu at once. weve seen that it does help against it.

itachi exausted himself against sasuke. The 5 kage together are much greater threat than sasuke was at that point.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
As it states. I am an ignorant dumb ass that has never read Naruto, therefor assume that Itachi lost to Sasuke because he was unable to spam his mangekyo techniques. I would never admit that Obito specifically stated that Itachi was on his deathbed years ago, and that he had to take a bunch of pills so that he didn't die from some disease that he had. Nah, Sasuke totally would have beaten Itachi with no disease, because Sasuke is gawd.

Fixed it for ya'.

yungz22
sasuke was still exhausted insulting ppl doesnt change that fact.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by yungz22
how do you base a fight entirely on speculation. For all we know it itachi can only put two ppl under genjutsu at once. and such basic gejutsu can easily be avoided anyway. your deeply underestimating the kage

if mei gets off hidden mist jutsu itachi has no way of placing them all under genjutsu at once. weve seen that it does help against it.

itachi exausted himself against sasuke. The 5 kage together are much greater threat than sasuke was at that point.

"can be easily avoided anyway", is NOT proof. Show ONE example of them breaking an Itachi level genjutsu while it's being used on them all at once, and I'll submit. You're deeply underestimating Itachi. He can use genjutsu on nearly 2,500 people from a country away with a gesture. He can use it on the gokage while sleeping. thumb up

So it's a race between who can cast their jutsu first. This just became the question of "can Mei cast a multi-handsign jutsu before Itachi can point in their general direction?", which has a very obvious answer. No.

Itachi was on his deathbed, and didn't want to beat Sasuke. That is like the tenth time I've debunked that stupid argument. Stop making it, dumb ass.

yungz22
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
"can be easily avoided anyway", is NOT proof. Show ONE example of them breaking an Itachi level genjutsu while it's being used on them all at once, and I'll submit. You're deeply underestimating Itachi. He can use genjutsu on nearly 2,500 people from a country away with a gesture. He can use it on the gokage while sleeping. thumb up

So it's a race between who can cast their jutsu first. This just became the question of "can Mei cast a multi-handsign jutsu before Itachi can point in their general direction?", which has a very obvious answer. No.

Itachi was on his deathbed, and didn't want to beat Sasuke. That is like the tenth time I've debunked that stupid argument. Stop making it, dumb ass.

lol the panel just stated that itachi cant use genjutsu on that many ppl at once. weve never seen him do it so theres no telling how many ppl he can cast under genjutsu at once. Theres no number so its pure speculation.

As a matter of fact itachi probably cant use genutsu on more than one person at once because hes never shown us it. heres an analogy i cant juggle. so if someone sees another person juggling 10 balls and then says therers no way that i can do it theyd still be right. because i never could juggle in the first place. so saying it would be impossible to control "that many" still could mean that he can only cast genjutsu on one person.

yungz22
i meant to say if somone says i cant juggle "that many" theyd still be right

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
When did I ever say, or even insinuate, that Itachi needed Tsukiyomi to win this?

That scan supports that Itachi doesn't need eye contact to use genjutsu. Plus, a jinchuriki with a biju has more chakra than ANY of the kage. If they can't break his base genjutsu, then Raikage is completely hopeless. Anyway though, this scan will put you to rest.

http://i.imgur.com/59L12jn.jpg

Ao said Itachi could use genjutsu on not THAT many people at once from such a distance. The distance was a country away, and on an entire block of the shinobi force, meaning 2,500 ninja. If he had to stress that Itachi couldn't put them ALL under genjutsu, then he obviously could have put a lot of them under it. With the lowest low-balling we can give, it's safe to assume that he could EASILY cast it on five people from close up. From there, all he has to do is finish them with amaterasu, because they can't dodge it while under genjutsu. The only one's with feasible ways to survive are Tsunade and Gaara. Tsunade by mitotic regeneration, which will only prolong her inevitable death, and Gaara by covering himself in a sand shield right when the fight starts, and flying into the air. Either way, he still can't win this, so... Itachi. Solo's.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5050.jpg

Apparently, you're neglecting this scan because you know that I've won. With all the kage under genjutsu at once, who could break them out of it anyways? Even if they could, it would still be a cake walk for Itachi to take them out one after the other while healthy, simply with an Amaterasu for whoever's under the genjutsu, and whoever's trying to break them out of it. thumb up

Kabuto had to blind himself, and become a sage just to avoid one of Itachi's abilities. Either way, Izanami is still an Uchiha jutsu, so you bringing that up is completely redundant.

I was stressing my original point that Itachi is still limited to the restrictions of his own justsu even if he is an Edo.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The panel I showed has Sakura smacking Naruto out of Itachi's genjustsu. Showing that Itachi's basic stuff can be broken out of if someone else is there to do it. Furthermore it is interesting to point out that out of the 4 people Itachi could've gotten with that justu, only Naruto was significantly affected. So in a way you bringing that scan up is actually lowballing Itachi.

Um...exactly how is Itachi going to get them all under genjustu at once? As shown in the scan before only Naruto couldn't break out of the genjustu trap w/o help. Furthermore if the Kages could avoid being genjustu'd by 25 Madara's, its safe to say they can avoid one Itachi.

The point of the Kabuto example was to show that Itachi can be bested by other people than Uchiha's. Also Kabuto had successful ways to avoid & counter all 3 main MS techs so I don't know why you're trying to lampshade that. Izanami was an asspull through and through but its canon so oh well.

chasedown
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I was stressing my original point that Itachi is still limited to the restrictions of his own justsu even if he is an Edo.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The panel I showed has Sakura smacking Naruto out of Itachi's genjustsu. Showing that Itachi's basic stuff can be broken out of if someone else is there to do it. Furthermore it is interesting to point out that out of the 4 people Itachi could've gotten with that justu, only Naruto was significantly affected. So in a way you bringing that scan up is actually lowballing Itachi.

Um...exactly how is Itachi going to get them all under genjustu at once? As shown in the scan before only Naruto couldn't break out of the genjustu trap w/o help. Furthermore if the Kages could avoid being genjustu'd by 25 Madara's, its safe to say they can avoid one Itachi.

The point of the Kabuto example was to show that Itachi can be bested by other people than Uchiha's. Also Kabuto had successful ways to avoid & counter all 3 main MS techs so I don't know why you're trying to lampshade that. Izanami was an asspull through and through but its canon so oh well.

Yea he had the perfect opportunity to cast more than one person under genjutsu at that point yet he didnt

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by yungz22
lol the panel just stated that itachi cant use genjutsu on that many ppl at once. weve never seen him do it so theres no telling how many ppl he can cast under genjutsu at once. Theres no number so its pure speculation.

As a matter of fact itachi probably cant use genutsu on more than one person at once because hes never shown us it. heres an analogy i cant juggle. so if someone sees another person juggling 10 balls and then says therers no way that i can do it theyd still be right. because i never could juggle in the first place. so saying it would be impossible to control "that many" still could mean that he can only cast genjutsu on one person.

Yeah, but the fact of the matter still remains that he didn't completely shoot down that argument, because he knew Itachi could use it on almost that many people. If he could use it on only one person at a time, he would have said, "Itachi can't use it on multiple people, so it can't be him.", but he instead said, "He can't use it on all those people.", which means he can use it on nearly as many. You obviously can't speak english very well, if this simple concept is that foreign to you.

As a matter of fact, he is the best genjutsu user in the ninja world other than Shisui, and we've seen weaker genjutsu users cast genjutsu on multiple people at once. Orochimaru and the second Mizukage, for example. Oro cast it on Sasuke and Sakura at the same time with a passing glance, someone who was one-panneled by Itachi's casual genjutsu. The second Mizukage caugth hundreds of ninja in his genjutsu, and even Ao said that the best genjutsu using Mizukage(the third) couldn't compare to Itachi.

Your analogy is stupid. If someone said that you can't juggle that many balls, while knowing you couldn't juggle, then they would be making a redundant point for no reason. They would simply say you can't juggle. Shikaku and Ao have seen Itachi's abilities, as they insinuated by giving knowledge on him in the first place. Ao said he couldn't control all those ninja. He didn't say that he could only control one of them. This means he can, AT THE VERY LEAST, control two people at once. It takes two people to break one person out of his genjutsu. That means they could only break one out at a time, and would still be completely vulnerable to amaterasu, while getting the sole fighter left not counter-acting genjutsu to fight Itachi 1 on 1, which would be over with a quick Totsuka seal. This leaves two people under genjutsu, and two to heal them. All Itachi has to do is vaporize the one that they don't try to break out of genjutsu, and then re-capture two of the others in it, and kill the remaining one with a casual seal. It's. That. Simple. Even if he didn't have the ability to seal all five at once, he can still defeat all five in a few short movements.

thumb up

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I was stressing my original point that Itachi is still limited to the restrictions of his own justsu even if he is an Edo.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The panel I showed has Sakura smacking Naruto out of Itachi's genjustsu. Showing that Itachi's basic stuff can be broken out of if someone else is there to do it. Furthermore it is interesting to point out that out of the 4 people Itachi could've gotten with that justu, only Naruto was significantly affected. So in a way you bringing that scan up is actually lowballing Itachi.

Um...exactly how is Itachi going to get them all under genjustu at once? As shown in the scan before only Naruto couldn't break out of the genjustu trap w/o help. Furthermore if the Kages could avoid being genjustu'd by 25 Madara's, its safe to say they can avoid one Itachi.

The point of the Kabuto example was to show that Itachi can be bested by other people than Uchiha's. Also Kabuto had successful ways to avoid & counter all 3 main MS techs so I don't know why you're trying to lampshade that. Izanami was an asspull through and through but its canon so oh well.

So I'll stress my original point again too. Those restrictions even, are something that the kage still can't get past.

Uh, no.

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5051.jpg

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567895.jpg

You're neglecting the fact that Naruto was already out of the genjutsu when Sakura slapped him. See my last post.

As also shown in that scan, Itachi could fight while using genjutsu on someone else, it takes two people to break the genjutsu, Itachi can use it on three times the people because that clone was 30% of his abilities, and this is all from base finger genjutsu. Again, see my previous post. The kage avoided mangekyo eye-contact genjutsu from 5 Madara's each. It's a little easier to avoid making eye-contact with five people than it is to be pointed in the direction of by a single person. Either way, Itachi is taking at least two out with his base genjutsu, possibly three, and presumably all five. See my previous post to see how he stomps in that fight.

So... What you're saying is that you had no point to begin with, by bringing up Kabuto, right?

chasedown
Your agrument is based on speculation that someone may or may not be able to do something. Unless it is confirmed that itachi can cast more then one person under genjutsu the arguements strength is really weak. Itachi has had multiple chances throughout the series to cast genjutsu on more than one person at a time both in part 1 and part 2 yet weve never seen him do it. What hes shown us however is that he can cast it on one person and hes shown us that multiple times.

We dont even know if said jutsu requires hand seals or not or whether prep time is required if he uses sharingan to do it or not or any other factor that jutsus require. All of these things are something that cant be answered.

In the context its used "That many" can mean anywhere from zero and up. Lets say he can do it to more than one person whose to say that the number is only two at a time.

There is no concrete evidence that state ls itachi can cast genjutsu on more than one person. Arguments should never based on pure speculation.

Also its like waka said the 5 kage managed to avoid genjutsu from 25 madara im sure they could avoid madara

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So I'll stress my original point again too. Those restrictions even, are something that the kage still can't get past.

Uh, no.

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5051.jpg

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567895.jpg

You're neglecting the fact that Naruto was already out of the genjutsu when Sakura slapped him. See my last post.

As also shown in that scan, Itachi could fight while using genjutsu on someone else, it takes two people to break the genjutsu, Itachi can use it on three times the people because that clone was 30% of his abilities, and this is all from base finger genjutsu. Again, see my previous post. The kage avoided mangekyo eye-contact genjutsu from 5 Madara's each. It's a little easier to avoid making eye-contact with five people than it is to be pointed in the direction of by a single person. Either way, Itachi is taking at least two out with his base genjutsu, possibly three, and presumably all five. See my previous post to see how he stomps in that fight.

So... What you're saying is that you had no point to begin with, by bringing up Kabuto, right?

How so? A can move faster than the Sharingan can track him, Mei's hidden mist can prevent Itachi from gaining a visual of the Kages, and Gaara has flight and a 3rd eye he can use to remove the risk of direct eye contact. He can also block Amateratsu.

Still don't understand what you're trying to say. Also according to that scan Sakura was the one to smack Naruto out of the genjutsu, in the previous chapter he was still under it.

Oh and even if that were the case, its not BTW, you do realize that by Naruto already being out the genjutsu implies that he got out of it on his own: which is low-balling Itachi's genjutsu even further.

You made a statement earlier that only an Uchiha could beat Itachi: which the series itself proves incorrect. My Kabuto example shows that Itachi can be bested by someone who isn't an Uchiha.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Your agrument is based on speculation that someone may or may not be able to do something. Unless it is confirmed that itachi can cast more then one person under genjutsu the arguements strength is really weak. Itachi has had multiple chances throughout the series to cast genjutsu on more than one person at a time both in part 1 and part 2 yet weve never seen him do it. What hes shown us however is that he can cast it on one person and hes shown us that multiple times.

We dont even know if said jutsu requires hand seals or not or whether prep time is required if he uses sharingan to do it or not or any other factor that jutsus require. All of these things are something that cant be answered.

In the context its used "That many" can mean anywhere from zero and up. Lets say he can do it to more than one person whose to say that the number is only two at a time.

There is no concrete evidence that state ls itachi can cast genjutsu on more than one person. Arguments should never based on pure speculation.

Also its like waka said the 5 kage managed to avoid genjutsu from 25 madara im sure they could avoid madara

Wrong again. Your counter argument is based on speculation. You obviously don't understand how English works. Again, Itachi could fight while using genjutsu on someone else, it takes two people to break the genjutsu, Itachi can use it on three times the people because that clone was 30% of his abilities, and this is all from base finger genjutsu. Just like how Kakashi could use Kamui three times more because Kurama tripled his chakra.

Also it's like I said to Waka. Madara needed eye contact for genjutsu, as seen when he caught A in it. Itachi needs only to point in your general direction. You can control your eyes, to avoid eye contact, but you can't avoid him pointing at you, because you can't control his finger. You can only attack him before it activates, which is not possible to any of the kage, including A.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
How so? A can move faster than the Sharingan can track him, Mei's hidden mist can prevent Itachi from gaining a visual of the Kages, and Gaara has flight and a 3rd eye he can use to remove the risk of direct eye contact. He can also block Amateratsu.

Still don't understand what you're trying to say. Also according to that scan Sakura was the one to smack Naruto out of the genjutsu, in the previous chapter he was still under it.

Oh and even if that were the case, its not BTW, you do realize that by Naruto already being out the genjutsu implies that he got out of it on his own: which is low-balling Itachi's genjutsu even further.

You made a statement earlier that only an Uchiha could beat Itachi: which the series itself proves incorrect. My Kabuto example shows that Itachi can be bested by someone who isn't an Uchiha.

How so? Sasuke used his sharingan to counter A's speed many times in the fight, and Itachi casually blitzed a person that solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. thumb up Mei can't use the hand signs before Itachi points at her. thumb up Gaara can't fly far enough to escape the totsuka blade before he gets skewered. thumb up He can't block Amaterasu while he's under genjutsu. thumb up

The scan I showed with Sakura was after they already broke him out of it, genius. He was still shaken from the jutsu, and Sakura slapped him to get him to concentrate. Learn to read.

So what you're saying is that Itachi's genjutsu requires two people to remove it AND someone to slap the person being affected? Alright. How stupid can you be? Your blatant attempt at low-balling Itachi has again proven your lack of reasoning. Sakura and Chiyo broke Naruto out of it, proven by him muttering "I-I", and Sakura slapped him to make him regain focus, as he was clearly traumatized by the genjutsu. Proving, once again, that it takes at least two people to remove Itachi's genjutsu from one person. Do you even know how to read?

Obviously there are certain exceptions to that statement. Hashirama could beat Itachi, as well as Jiraiya and many other uber-powerful hax characters, like Jyuubi jinchuriki's, the Sage of six paths, current Naruto, etc. Normally though, only a Senju or Uchiha could have a chance of beating Itachi.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Wrong again. Your counter argument is based on speculation. You obviously don't understand how English works. Again, Itachi could fight while using genjutsu on someone else, it takes two people to break the genjutsu, Itachi can use it on three times the people because that clone was 30% of his abilities, and this is all from base finger genjutsu. Just like how Kakashi could use Kamui three times more because Kurama tripled his chakra.

Also it's like I said to Waka. Madara needed eye contact for genjutsu, as seen when he caught A in it. Itachi needs only to point in your general direction. You can control your eyes, to avoid eye contact, but you can't avoid him pointing at you, because you can't control his finger. You can only attack him before it activates, which is not possible to any of the kage, including A.

There is no exact number of how many people itachi can put under genjutsu.


Just because ge was using 30% percent of his power doenst mean he can put more people under genjutsu with one jutsu. Yes maybe he could do the finger jutsu more times one after the other tho.

You dont even know what the name of the jutsu itachi can "supposedly" use that traps everybody at once. Nor do you know how the jutsu is performed. Nor do you know whether it requires sharingan or regular hand seal. Nor the amount of chakra it takes to perform such a jutsu. There is zero concrete information that can lead to the definite comformation that he can do it other than a guy saying "that many" which can range anywhere from 0 and up.

The fact of the matter is weve only seen itachi cast genjutsu on one person at a time. If he could cast it on a group of people why didnt he do it the countless chances hes had to do it throughout the series spanning from part 1 all the way to part 2.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
There is no exact number of how many people itachi can put under genjutsu.


Just because ge was using 30% percent of his power doenst mean he can put more people under genjutsu with one jutsu. Yes maybe he could do the finger jutsu more times one after the other tho.

You dont even know what the name of the jutsu itachi can "supposedly" use that traps everybody at once. Nor do you know how the jutsu is performed. Nor do you know whether it requires sharingan or regular hand seal. Nor the amount of chakra it takes to perform such a jutsu. There is zero concrete information that can lead to the definite comformation that he can do it other than a guy saying "that many" which can range anywhere from 0 and up.

The fact of the matter is weve only seen itachi cast genjutsu on one person at a time. If he could cast it on a group of people why didnt he do it the countless chances hes had to do it throughout the series spanning from part 1 all the way to part 2.

What don't you get about "three times one"?

No, that's exactly what it means. If he would need to point at them all individually, so be it. He still just needs to wave his finger at all of them, and he's achieved the same results.

Wrong AGAIN. He said "that many", not "he can only use it on one person at a time", meaning that he can AT THE LEAST, use it on two people at once. Again though, that would be retarded to assume, as he said "that many", and not "only a few". Again, it's quite safe to assume he can at least use it one half of them, or around a thousand. Five kage from short range is pretty simple for someone that can do that. There was no mention of any jutsu, meaning that we can't conjure up some new jutsu for him that takes time to use, so we again have to assume that it's a jutsu he already has demonstrated, or at least mentioned. Can he see people from countries away? No, but he can point in their direction, meaning he presumably can use his base, finger genjutsu to trap around a thousand people from a country away, probably even more. You can't disprove this without assuming he has another jutsu that has never even been mentioned, so don't even try. You're embarrassing yourself.

So Goku can't planet+ bust because he never has? Good ta' know. thumb up

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What don't you get about "three times one"?

No, that's exactly what it means. If he would need to point at them all individually, so be it. He still just needs to wave his finger at all of them, and he's achieved the same results.

Wrong AGAIN. He said "that many", not "he can only use it on one person at a time", meaning that he can AT THE LEAST, use it on two people at once. Again though, that would be retarded to assume, as he said "that many", and not "only a few". Again, it's quite safe to assume he can at least use it one half of them, or around a thousand. Five kage from short range is pretty simple for someone that can do that. There was no mention of any jutsu, meaning that we can't conjure up some new jutsu for him that takes time to use, so we again have to assume that it's a jutsu he already has demonstrated, or at least mentioned. Can he see people from countries away? No, but he can point in their direction, meaning he presumably can use his base, finger genjutsu to trap around a thousand people from a country away, probably even more. You can't disprove this without assuming he has another jutsu that has never even been mentioned, so don't even try. You're embarrassing yourself.

So Goku can't planet+ bust because he never has? Good ta' know. thumb up

Wrong goku can planet bust because people weaker than him have done so.


The point is that statement is vague and can mean an assortment of numbers.

So you think that itachi with one finger can cast genjutsu on over 100 people? With a jutsu as powerful as that how come he never used? Do you realize how increadibly useful that would be. With something like that itachi would have never had to kill his clan. Which is something that plauge him on the inside for years.

Weve never seen him use such a jutsu therefore he cant do it.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How so? Sasuke used his sharingan to counter A's speed many times in the fight, and Itachi casually blitzed a person that solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. thumb up Mei can't use the hand signs before Itachi points at her. thumb up Gaara can't fly far enough to escape the totsuka blade before he gets skewered. thumb up He can't block Amaterasu while he's under genjutsu. thumb up

The scan I showed with Sakura was after they already broke him out of it, genius. He was still shaken from the jutsu, and Sakura slapped him to get him to concentrate. Learn to read.

So what you're saying is that Itachi's genjutsu requires two people to remove it AND someone to slap the person being affected? Alright. How stupid can you be? Your blatant attempt at low-balling Itachi has again proven your lack of reasoning. Sakura and Chiyo broke Naruto out of it, proven by him muttering "I-I", and Sakura slapped him to make him regain focus, as he was clearly traumatized by the genjutsu. Proving, once again, that it takes at least two people to remove Itachi's genjutsu from one person. Do you even know how to read?

Obviously there are certain exceptions to that statement. Hashirama could beat Itachi, as well as Jiraiya and many other uber-powerful hax characters, like Jyuubi jinchuriki's, the Sage of six paths, current Naruto, etc. Normally though, only a Senju or Uchiha could have a chance of beating Itachi.

Counter? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't keep up with A using v2 of his Raiton armor. if it could he would've been able to hit him with Amateratsu. Hidden Mist doesn't require that many hand signs and if the worst happens there's another Kage to break her out of it. He can't cast genjustu and use Susanoo simultaneously. Plus Gaara could pull Itachi out of his Susanoo.
Also if he's focused on one Kage there are four others there to attack him. Remember this isn't a gauntlet.

BTW the finger genjustsu still requires you look at it in order which is how Naruto got caught in the first place:
http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5039.jpg

Sakura broke him out of it with the smack. Chiyo had nothing to do with it. Furthermore Naruto was the only one caught in the genjustu out of the people Itachi could've cast it on. Also Onoki breaking A out of genjustu or even a lighter example of Hachibi breaking B out of one of Itachi's genjutsu proves that it only takes one outside force to do it. Also why are you using Naruto as the basis for you're argument when its covered in the manga that genjustu was not his strong suit.

Kabuto is neither of those things(Senju/Uchiha) and the series itself gave doubt as to the whole Jiraiya thing.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Wrong goku can planet bust because people weaker than him have done so.


The point is that statement is vague and can mean an assortment of numbers.

So you think that itachi with one finger can cast genjutsu on over 100 people? With a jutsu as powerful as that how come he never used? Do you realize how increadibly useful that would be. With something like that itachi would have never had to kill his clan. Which is something that plauge him on the inside for years.

Weve never seen him use such a jutsu therefore he cant do it.

Think about what you're saying then. You're saying his jutsu can't be used to that extent, because we've never seen him do it, even though it's been stated that he could.

Same with Goku.

How would using genjutsu on a hundred people be enough to end a war between all the nations? He had to kill his clan because it would have made a domino effect and destroyed the entire ninja world potentially. He figured it was better to bear the burden himself than to force others to suffer, predominately Sasuke.

yungz22
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Think about what you're saying then. You're saying his jutsu can't be used to that extent, because we've never seen him do it, even though it's been stated that he could.

Same with Goku.

How would using genjutsu on a hundred people be enough to end a war between all the nations? He had to kill his clan because it would have made a domino effect and destroyed the entire ninja world potentially. He figured it was better to bear the burden himself than to force others to suffer, predominately Sasuke.


haha the thing is it hasnt been stated he could. "that many" is a very indefinite and imprecise statement.....just putting my two cents in.

all though i do disagree with chasedown and think that itachi can cast genjutsu on multiple people something of that magnitude has to be done with the sharingan not just one finger because we have seen instances of the sharingan doing that.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Counter? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't keep up with A using v2 of his Raiton armor. if it could he would've been able to hit him with Amateratsu. Hidden Mist doesn't require that many hand signs and if the worst happens there's another Kage to break her out of it. He can't cast genjustu and use Susanoo simultaneously. Plus Gaara could pull Itachi out of his Susanoo.
Also if he's focused on one Kage there are four others there to attack him. Remember this isn't a gauntlet.

BTW the finger genjustsu still requires you look at it in order which is how Naruto got caught in the first place:
http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5039.jpg

Sakura broke him out of it with the smack. Chiyo had nothing to do with it. Furthermore Naruto was the only one caught in the genjustu out of the people Itachi could've cast it on. Also Onoki breaking A out of genjustu or even a lighter example of Hachibi breaking B out of one of Itachi's genjutsu proves that it only takes one outside force to do it. Also why are you using Naruto as the basis for you're argument when its covered in the manga that genjustu was not his strong suit.

Kabuto is neither of those things(Senju/Uchiha) and the series itself gave doubt as to the whole Jiraiya thing.

Sasuke had enough insight with his sharingan to counter Raikage's movements many times. Plus, this is about Itachi, not Sasuke. Itachi, who blitzed Nagato, who solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. Again, it takes two to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. Prove that he can't. He used Amaterasu while using Susano'o in the Kabuto fight, plus the whole Totsuka blade genjutsu thing. thumb up

Yet he still pre-occupies two kage to release the one in genjutsu, while he fights two by himself, which would be casually dealt with by a simple Amaterasu shotgun, or totsuka stab, leaving one defenseless and under genjutsu, while two try to fight him off, before he kills the one under genjutsu, and then puts the remaining two in genjutsu, and slits their throats. That simple.

Btw, it never once said anything about looking at his finger, so stop baselessly assuming things.

You clearly haven't read the manga before, or paid attention to the scans I posted.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5050.jpg

Sakura and Chiyo clearly break him out of it, and Kakashi jumps back away from Itachi.

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5051.jpg

Kakashi lands in a skid from his jump, and Naruto is still traumatized and unfocused by Itachi's genjutsu.

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567895.jpg

Sakura slaps him to make him concentrate.

Stop making shit up.

Furthermore, it was a 30% clone, and Itachi wanted nothing more than to slow them down a bit. thumb up

Madara's 4% clone is better at genjutsu than Itachi? No, so that "feat" means nothing, as even full power Madara is still not as good at Genjutsu as Itachi, going by statements alone. When did Bee fight Itachi? He didn't, so stop comparing him to the weaker, inexperienced, newly awakened Mangekyo Sasuke. thumb up

Naruto was still a jinchuriki, with hilariously more chakra than A. Even A was incapacitated by a much weaker(at genjutsu) Madara's genjutsu.

Which is exactly why Kabuto lost, and Itachi was scared of Jiraiya(or why Pain, the strongest Akatsuki besides Tobi needed to sneak up on Jiraiya to beat him). thumb up

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by yungz22
haha the thing is it hasnt been stated he could. "that many" is a very indefinite and imprecise statement.....just putting my two cents in.

all though i do disagree with chasedown and think that itachi can cast genjutsu on multiple people something of that magnitude has to be done with the sharingan not just one finger because we have seen instances of the sharingan doing that.

But it still scales linearly to the statement itself. If he meant that Itachi could only use it on a few people, Ao would have completely disregarded Shikaku and said Itachi could use it on only a few or one people/person. However, he said "not that many people", insinuating that he could come close to that, or that he could control nearly the entire block of 2,500 fighters with genjutsu. It is very vague, but low-balling it to one person makes you look stupid, don't you agree? It's just simple English, lol.

Well from that far away though, he can't see anyone, but he can point in their direction. We can't just give him a new genjutsu, but we can elaborate from the statement on the one closest to the description of one he has already.

yungz22
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But it still scales linearly to the statement itself. If he meant that Itachi could only use it on a few people, Ao would have completely disregarded Shikaku and said Itachi could use it on only a few or one people/person. However, he said "not that many people", insinuating that he could come close to that, or that he could control nearly the entire block of 2,500 fighters with genjutsu. It is very vague, but low-balling it to one person makes you look stupid, don't you agree? It's just simple English, lol.

Well from that far away though, he can't see anyone, but he can point in their direction. We can't just give him a new genjutsu, but we can elaborate from the statement on the one closest to the description of one he has already.

yea i know what your saying i totally get you but no one conclusion can be made from that number. Its possible it could be one and its possible the number could be in the hundreds. the fact of the matter is we dont know. " that many" is non conclusive.

i dont think distance really even matters if you look into the eyes of a sharingan user its pretty much over you can be cast under it.

weve seen sharingan put more than one person under genjutsu at once therefore we have to assume that is the means of Itachi casting genjutsu when it comes casting it on more than one person. his finger jutsu has never done that so we cant just give his finger genjustu new abilities.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Sasuke had enough insight with his sharingan to counter Raikage's movements many times. Plus, this is about Itachi, not Sasuke. Itachi, who blitzed Nagato, who solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. Again, it takes two to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. Prove that he can't. He used Amaterasu while using Susano'o in the Kabuto fight, plus the whole Totsuka blade genjutsu thing. thumb up

Yet he still pre-occupies two kage to release the one in genjutsu, while he fights two by himself, which would be casually dealt with by a simple Amaterasu shotgun, or totsuka stab, leaving one defenseless and under genjutsu, while two try to fight him off, before he kills the one under genjutsu, and then puts the remaining two in genjutsu, and slits their throats. That simple.

Btw, it never once said anything about looking at his finger, so stop baselessly assuming things.

You clearly haven't read the manga before, or paid attention to the scans I posted.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5050.jpg

Sakura and Chiyo clearly break him out of it, and Kakashi jumps back away from Itachi.

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5051.jpg

Kakashi lands in a skid from his jump, and Naruto is still traumatized and unfocused by Itachi's genjutsu.

http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567895.jpg

Sakura slaps him to make him concentrate.

Stop making shit up.

Furthermore, it was a 30% clone, and Itachi wanted nothing more than to slow them down a bit. thumb up

Madara's 4% clone is better at genjutsu than Itachi? No, so that "feat" means nothing, as even full power Madara is still not as good at Genjutsu as Itachi, going by statements alone. When did Bee fight Itachi? He didn't, so stop comparing him to the weaker, inexperienced, newly awakened Mangekyo Sasuke. thumb up

Naruto was still a jinchuriki, with hilariously more chakra than A. Even A was incapacitated by a much weaker(at genjutsu) Madara's genjutsu.

Which is exactly why Kabuto lost, and Itachi was scared of Jiraiya(or why Pain, the strongest Akatsuki besides Tobi needed to sneak up on Jiraiya to beat him). thumb up

You're the one who brought Sasuke up, also Sasuke couldn't react to A once he used v2 of his Raiton armor. Nagato's not that fast or at least not as fast as A. It only took one other being to break out of a sharingan genjustu:
http://i32.mangapanda.com/naruto/549/naruto-2510289.jpg

Itachi doesn't have Enton therefore can't do the Amateratsu shotgun. The Tosuka blade is the biggest threat to the Kage's however Tsunade is physically strong enough to break Susanoo along with Gaara being able to pull Itachi out of it.

That's how Itachi gets people under the genjustu. You don't go into one just by Itachi pointing at you otherwise all four people in the group would've been under the genjustu. Its almost no different with how the Sharingan works.

Naruto was already out of it. He might have still been shaken up but the genjustu itself was over. Also why are you insisting on using an example where the person in question isn't good at genjutsu.

Unfocused doesn't mean he's still under it. You can still be out of focus when the genjutsu ends which is evident in the series.

Speaking of making things up, where did that 4% number come from? Bee fought Itachi alongside Naruto when they duo encountered him along with an Edo Nagato. No sure what that has to do with this though.

Naruto at that point didn't have mastery over Kurama. Chakra quantity =/= chakra control.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pull not Itachi: plus Itachi had help so it isn't entirely his victory to begin with. Evidence in Part 2 suggest otherwise.

psycho gundam
didn't really read past half the 1st page. itachi would have trouble with raikage if we take each kage's individual performance rather than just their collective performance cause i mean, ninja law and they went up against madara.

seriously, raikage would be a problem especially with oonoki on his back and gaara pulling itachi out of susano'o...hell, gaara can use that massive pyramid thing that trapped madara and itachi can't escape since he doesn't have a final susano'o

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by yungz22
yea i know what your saying i totally get you but no one conclusion can be made from that number. Its possible it could be one and its possible the number could be in the hundreds. the fact of the matter is we dont know. " that many" is non conclusive.

i dont think distance really even matters if you look into the eyes of a sharingan user its pretty much over you can be cast under it.

weve seen sharingan put more than one person under genjutsu at once therefore we have to assume that is the means of Itachi casting genjutsu when it comes casting it on more than one person. his finger jutsu has never done that so we cant just give his finger genjustu new abilities.

The reason it can't be just one person, or less than a few hundred, is because Ao implied that he could use it on almost 2,500 people. That alone is conclusive enough to make a low-ball 75% estimate, which says Itachi can control roughly 1,875 people with one genjutsu. And that's with severe low-balling.

It does, if you can't even see that far. No one can see past the curvature of the earth, meaning that Itachi could have ONLY used the finger genjutsu to control them from a continent away.

When? I don't ever recall a sharingan being demonstrated to control more than one person with genjutsu. It's only ever been implied that Itachi could do so with his finger genjutsu.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
You're the one who brought Sasuke up, also Sasuke couldn't react to A once he used v2 of his Raiton armor. Nagato's not that fast or at least not as fast as A. It only took one other being to break out of a sharingan genjustu:
http://i32.mangapanda.com/naruto/549/naruto-2510289.jpg

Itachi doesn't have Enton therefore can't do the Amateratsu shotgun. The Tosuka blade is the biggest threat to the Kage's however Tsunade is physically strong enough to break Susanoo along with Gaara being able to pull Itachi out of it.

That's how Itachi gets people under the genjustu. You don't go into one just by Itachi pointing at you otherwise all four people in the group would've been under the genjustu. Its almost no different with how the Sharingan works.

Naruto was already out of it. He might have still been shaken up but the genjustu itself was over. Also why are you insisting on using an example where the person in question isn't good at genjutsu.

Unfocused doesn't mean he's still under it. You can still be out of focus when the genjutsu ends which is evident in the series.

Speaking of making things up, where did that 4% number come from? Bee fought Itachi alongside Naruto when they duo encountered him along with an Edo Nagato. No sure what that has to do with this though.

Naruto at that point didn't have mastery over Kurama. Chakra quantity =/= chakra control.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pull not Itachi: plus Itachi had help so it isn't entirely his victory to begin with. Evidence in Part 2 suggest otherwise.

1. I brought up Sasuke because he's incomparably weaker than Itachi. It was stated many times throughout the series that Itachi only lost because he didn't want to win.

So why did Nagato solo KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, both of whom are equal to or greater than Raikage in speed? Itachi casually batted Nagato aside with an attack he couldn't even REACT to. Naruto and Killer Bee are nothing compared to Itachi at that point.

2. You're forgetting that Itachi invented the Amaterasu shotgun.

http://i22.mangapanda.com/naruto/390/naruto-1569333.jpg

It might be a little different from Sasuke's, but even Itachi on his deathbed can generate ridiculously more Amaterasu that a healthy Sasuke with EMS.

Tsunade's not strong enough to break the Yata mirror. Plus, none of them is fast enough to dodge it's stab. Gaara can only do that if his teammates can make an opening to prevent him from instantly killing Gaara, which they can't due to Itachi's superior speed, intelligence, sharingan and deadly hax.

3. You're, again, neglecting EVERYTHING I've said. ITACHI DIDN'T WANT TO KILL ANYONE, first off. HE WANTED TO SLOW THEM DOWN. HE WAS A 30% CLONE. God, you're dense.

4. Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu. thumb up

Naruto isn't good at USING genjutsu, but he's just fine at releasing it. His chakra capacity alone makes him severely better at it than 99% of people in the series.

You're repeating me again. I'll just take that a sign of your concession.

5. Since you obviously don't know simple, basic mathematics, let me explain this to you. To use shadow clones, you split up your chakra between them. Madara made 25 clones, meaning his chakra was split up into 25 parts. How much is 100 divided by 25? 4, meaning each clone was 4% as powerful as Madara. Itachi is better at genjutsu than the real Madara going by statements alone, meaning he was OVER 25 times more powerful with genjutsu than that clone, meaning Raikage would have been eaten by his base finger genjutsu.

Bee held off an Itachi that was toying with him. Bee even had to use the Hachibi just to keep up, and Itachi hadn't even used any MS techniques. Why did you think that Itachi could shit on someone who solo'ed 2nd form hachibi release Bee and KCM Naruto, when he DID use his MS techniques?

6. Naruto at that point still had mastery over around three chakra tails. Don't forget that he has been able to pull kage level chakra from Kurama since he first started training with Jiraiya in part 1. thumb up

7. Kabuto would have been beaten by plenty of characters other than Itachi. Would they have been able to stop edo tensei though? No, meaning that Itachi was the only person who was capable of actually beating him.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pul from Itachi. That means he still lost to Itachi, retard. Are you saying that the Kage didn't lose to Madara, because he pulled perfect Susano'o out of his pussy?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by psycho gundam
didn't really read past half the 1st page. itachi would have trouble with raikage if we take each kage's individual performance rather than just their collective performance cause i mean, ninja law and they went up against madara.

seriously, raikage would be a problem especially with oonoki on his back and gaara pulling itachi out of susano'o...hell, gaara can use that massive pyramid thing that trapped madara and itachi can't escape since he doesn't have a final susano'o

Yes, theoretically, if Itachi didn't have genjutsu mastery or hax to the point he does, the Kage could beat him.

However, they can do nothing to his superior speed, sharingan, multi-person genjutsu cast from pointing, Amaterasu that can cover mountain sized areas in an instant, Susano'o with Yata mirror an Totsuka blade, and RIDICULOUS sharingan abilities like Izanagi and Izanami. The fight would begin, and three or more Kage would be under genjutsu, and the other two would fall to Amaterasu and Totsuka blade. Bam, the fights over, and they can do nothing to stop it.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
The reason it can't be just one person, or less than a few hundred, is because Ao implied that he could use it on almost 2,500 people. That alone is conclusive enough to make a low-ball 75% estimate, which says Itachi can control roughly 1,875 people with one genjutsu. And that's with severe low-balling.

It does, if you can't even see that far. No one can see past the curvature of the earth, meaning that Itachi could have ONLY used the finger genjutsu to control them from a continent away.

When? I don't ever recall a sharingan being demonstrated to control more than one person with genjutsu. It's only ever been implied that Itachi could do so with his finger genjutsu.


How is "that many" conclusive and automatically mean almost 2500 people? we still dont know the number of people he can do it to. And again hes had many chances to do what your saying and hasnt done so therefore its inconclusive. Itachi has only put genjutsu on one person at a time eberytime weve seen him against multiple opponents. One is the only number we know conclusively.

Thats just like someone concluding that lebron james has 40000 career points. After someone says he has 50,000 points and another person says theres no way he has "that many"........ The person who concludes 40,000 points from the saying "that many" is just plain wrong. The point is "that many" is so vague and doesnt give us an actual answer.

And another thing itachi has stated before that the use of two or more ms techniques in one day greatly fatigues him and he would be out of chakra.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. I brought up Sasuke because he's incomparably weaker than Itachi. It was stated many times throughout the series that Itachi only lost because he didn't want to win.

So why did Nagato solo KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, both of whom are equal to or greater than Raikage in speed? Itachi casually batted Nagato aside with an attack he couldn't even REACT to. Naruto and Killer Bee are nothing compared to Itachi at that point.

2. You're forgetting that Itachi invented the Amaterasu shotgun.

http://i22.mangapanda.com/naruto/390/naruto-1569333.jpg

It might be a little different from Sasuke's, but even Itachi on his deathbed can generate ridiculously more Amaterasu that a healthy Sasuke with EMS.

Tsunade's not strong enough to break the Yata mirror. Plus, none of them is fast enough to dodge it's stab. Gaara can only do that if his teammates can make an opening to prevent him from instantly killing Gaara, which they can't due to Itachi's superior speed, intelligence, sharingan and deadly hax.

3. You're, again, neglecting EVERYTHING I've said. ITACHI DIDN'T WANT TO KILL ANYONE, first off. HE WANTED TO SLOW THEM DOWN. HE WAS A 30% CLONE. God, you're dense.

4. Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu. thumb up

Naruto isn't good at USING genjutsu, but he's just fine at releasing it. His chakra capacity alone makes him severely better at it than 99% of people in the series.

You're repeating me again. I'll just take that a sign of your concession.

5. Since you obviously don't know simple, basic mathematics, let me explain this to you. To use shadow clones, you split up your chakra between them. Madara made 25 clones, meaning his chakra was split up into 25 parts. How much is 100 divided by 25? 4, meaning each clone was 4% as powerful as Madara. Itachi is better at genjutsu than the real Madara going by statements alone, meaning he was OVER 25 times more powerful with genjutsu than that clone, meaning Raikage would have been eaten by his base finger genjutsu.

Bee held off an Itachi that was toying with him. Bee even had to use the Hachibi just to keep up, and Itachi hadn't even used any MS techniques. Why did you think that Itachi could shit on someone who solo'ed 2nd form hachibi release Bee and KCM Naruto, when he DID use his MS techniques?

6. Naruto at that point still had mastery over around three chakra tails. Don't forget that he has been able to pull kage level chakra from Kurama since he first started training with Jiraiya in part 1. thumb up

7. Kabuto would have been beaten by plenty of characters other than Itachi. Would they have been able to stop edo tensei though? No, meaning that Itachi was the only person who was capable of actually beating him.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pul from Itachi. That means he still lost to Itachi, retard. Are you saying that the Kage didn't lose to Madara, because he pulled perfect Susano'o out of his pussy?

Umm...what? Itachi has been tagged by people slower than A. On top of that Itachi's Sharingan hasn't shown the means to keep up with someone as fast as A. And before you use Naruto as an example let me ask this: Did Naruto even once use his KCM speed?

Nagato has been shown to be more versatile than Naruto in the past on top of having a chakra boost from Bee. Sure Itachi carried the fight but he still required their help. Not sure why you mention this though. At that point Naruto was faster and had more destructive power while Bee was a confirmed mountain buster so no they weren't inferior to Itachi: again not sure what that has to do with this.

That wasn't the Amateratsu shotgun. This is: http://i26.mangapanda.com/naruto/574/naruto-3073169.jpg

Also its been confirmed that Itachi didn't have Enton which is the ability to manipulate the Amateratsu. All he could do with it other than shoot it is retract the flames. Also having the flames spread is different from generating a massive amount of them in one go which Sasuke is able to do. However The Kages have means to outright block it so none of this should be a problem.

What does that have to do with how Itachi's genjustu works? With that particular technique he simple couldn't affect multiple people on top of the genjutsu type itself being rather weak.

That's not how chakra works. You do realize that by implying that Naruto got out of it on his own would make Itachi's genjutsu look even weaker right? Additionally Onoki broke A out of Madara's genjustu: a guy who's more powerful than Itachi.

That number doesn't have any basis to it because we don't have any evidence that Madara's wood clones function like regular ones. The finger genjutsu still requires you to look at him which A could outright avoid with his speed.

Itachi wasn't toying with Bee. Toying would imply that he was willingly fighting Bee which he wasn't. He was on auto-pilot due to the Edo Tensei commands, he had no control over his actions prior to the koto amatsukami.

Again that doesn't make him good at genjustu. Only jinchuruki that have completely mastery over their Biju have genjutsu immunity: this has been covered in canon.

Care to provide an example of someone who's just as powerful as Itachi beating Kabuto? You can't deny that Kabuto was able to create counters to all 3 sharingan tech and juggle both Itachi and Sasuke. Even if Itachi was capable of stopping Kabuto that doesn't make him more powerful: especially if he had to resort to an attack that had no foreshadowing whatsoever.

That analogy is false consider the reader knew Madara wasn't using his full Susanoo and that there had to be something that put him on par with Hashirama. We did not know nor did we have any clue as to where Izanami came from nor did we know how Itachi was able to use it.

BTW trying to argue other topic to get out of debating the current one isn't very cool.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Umm...what? Itachi has been tagged by people slower than A. On top of that Itachi's Sharingan hasn't shown the means to keep up with someone as fast as A. And before you use Naruto as an example let me ask this: Did Naruto even once use his KCM speed?

Nagato has been shown to be more versatile than Naruto in the past on top of having a chakra boost from Bee. Sure Itachi carried the fight but he still required their help. Not sure why you mention this though. At that point Naruto was faster and had more destructive power while Bee was a confirmed mountain buster so no they weren't inferior to Itachi: again not sure what that has to do with this.

That wasn't the Amateratsu shotgun. This is: http://i26.mangapanda.com/naruto/574/naruto-3073169.jpg

Also its been confirmed that Itachi didn't have Enton which is the ability to manipulate the Amateratsu. All he could do with it other than shoot it is retract the flames. Also having the flames spread is different from generating a massive amount of them in one go which Sasuke is able to do. However The Kages have means to outright block it so none of this should be a problem.

What does that have to do with how Itachi's genjustu works? With that particular technique he simple couldn't affect multiple people on top of the genjutsu type itself being rather weak.

That's not how chakra works. You do realize that by implying that Naruto got out of it on his own would make Itachi's genjutsu look even weaker right? Additionally Onoki broke A out of Madara's genjustu: a guy who's more powerful than Itachi.

That number doesn't have any basis to it because we don't have any evidence that Madara's wood clones function like regular ones. The finger genjutsu still requires you to look at him which A could outright avoid with his speed.

Itachi wasn't toying with Bee. Toying would imply that he was willingly fighting Bee which he wasn't. He was on auto-pilot due to the Edo Tensei commands, he had no control over his actions prior to the koto amatsukami.

Again that doesn't make him good at genjustu. Only jinchuruki that have completely mastery over their Biju have genjutsu immunity: this has been covered in canon.

Care to provide an example of someone who's just as powerful as Itachi beating Kabuto? You can't deny that Kabuto was able to create counters to all 3 sharingan tech and juggle both Itachi and Sasuke. Even if Itachi was capable of stopping Kabuto that doesn't make him more powerful: especially if he had to resort to an attack that had no foreshadowing whatsoever.

That analogy is false consider the reader knew Madara wasn't using his full Susanoo and that there had to be something that put him on par with Hashirama. We did not know nor did we have any clue as to where Izanami came from nor did we know how Itachi was able to use it.

BTW trying to argue other topic to get out of debating the current one isn't very cool.

1. Um... So? A was tagged dozens of times by Sasuke, someone who had his entire team shat on by Bee. Itachi, when actually trying, shat on Nagato, someone who solo'd Bee and Naruto casually, both using their biju forms. Before you bring that retarded shit up again, let me ask YOU this: Is him being in KCM and moving NOT KCM speed, idiot?

thumb up

2. When did Itachi require their help? He saved them completely while casually killing Nagato with a stab. If it wasn't for Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee would both be dead right now. It doesn't matter if they have more physical power, they still can't stand up to Itachi's abilities that allowed him to casually dominate a character who was casually dominating them both. Nagato's chakra boost from Bee put him back to his normal peak levels. That's why it made his hair red again. If you're not sure why a feat of Itachi being >>> than a character who was >>> to the person you're saying is better than Itachi, has anything to do with this debate, then you're even dumber than I thought.

3. Uh, no dumb ass, that was clearly Enton: Yasaka Magatama, hints the sharingan tomoe shape of the fireballs. Itachi's still has a vastly larger AOE and faster activation. Sasuke's is more precise, but Itachi's doesn't need to be.

4. Uh, Itachi covered an entire forest in seconds with a single use of Ammy. Sasuke has nowhere near that capacity. ONE of the Kage's can block it. The others get vaporized, and that's if Gaara's not instantly caught in genjutsu.

5. What? Itachi can cast genjutsu at you simply by him pointing. Never did it say that you had to "look" at his finger, lol. How is it weak if it can affect multiple targets from a country away just by him pointing? thumb up

6. "Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu.", when did I even SUGGEST Naruto broke it himself? You're completely twisting my words again. I'll state it outright ONE more time. It takes two people to break one person out of Itachi's finger genjutsu. thumb up

Additionally, Madara's full power isn't as good at genjutsu as Itachi is, let alone that 4% full power clone that casually caught A in genjutsu. thumb up

7. That number DOES have basis, because we don't have any evidence suggesting wood clones are any different from other clones, dumb ass. thumb up

Show me where it ever suggested that you needed to look at Itachi's finger to be caught in his genjutsu. Because I can prove that he doesn't.

http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5038.jpg

"If I have just one finger, it's enough.", nothing about looking at his finger, lol.

8. Itachi not using any of his mangekyo attacks, that make up his entire arsenal of attacks useful against Bee, proves that Kabuto was simply toying with him. As soon as he did start getting serious, Koto amatsukami broke him out of Edo tensei.

9. Again, I never said it did. However, it instantly makes him remarkable at breaking out of genjutsu. Remember that anyone can break genjutsu with enough energy output to overpower the genjutsu's restriction on their chakra flow. Naruto, a powerful jinchuriki with hilariously more chakra than Itachi, still couldn't break a base genjutsu from Itachi by exerting all of his chakra. That is a near biju level feat from Itachi's base finger-genjutsu.

10. No, because Itachi and Sasuke, the only people Kabuto has ever fought while using Oro's cells, killed him in their only fight. Their are plenty of characters capable of shitting on him casually though. Hell, even Killer Bee would have shat on Kabuto by himself. The only difference is that Kabuto SPECIFICALLY made his body capable of countering Itachi and Sasuke's jutsu's. He's still, for the most part, useless against anyone around as strong as Lee or Neji. Naruto could have eaten Kabuto, honestly, but he was solo'ed with Bee by someone Itachi crapped on casually. I will admit. Itachi is nothing without his hax.

It WAS foreshadowed. Every time they've introduced a sharingan tech, their has always been another one for the other eye. It was painfully obvious when Tsukiyomi was introduced that their would be a fire jutsu named Amaterasu, and some kind of jutsu named Susano'o. In case you haven't realized, Naruto uses a lot of japanese mythology like that.

11. So how would the reader know? We saw Madara's casual Susano'o beating five Kage. It was assumed that Hashirama was not that much stronger than them before all the statements from Madara. There was no indication of Hashirama and Madara being casual country busters that could shit on everything casually, biju included. Perfect Susano'o was JUST as much of an ass-pul as Izanami, if not more.

12. Uh, BTW, you're the one who brought Kabuto up in the first place, dip-shit. thumb up

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Um... So? A was tagged dozens of times by Sasuke, someone who had his entire team shat on by Bee. Itachi, when actually trying, shat on Nagato, someone who solo'd Bee and Naruto casually, both using their biju forms. Before you bring that retarded shit up again, let me ask YOU this: Is him being in KCM and moving NOT KCM speed, idiot?

thumb up

2. When did Itachi require their help? He saved them completely while casually killing Nagato with a stab. If it wasn't for Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee would both be dead right now. It doesn't matter if they have more physical power, they still can't stand up to Itachi's abilities that allowed him to casually dominate a character who was casually dominating them both. Nagato's chakra boost from Bee put him back to his normal peak levels. That's why it made his hair red again. If you're not sure why a feat of Itachi being >>> than a character who was >>> to the person you're saying is better than Itachi, has anything to do with this debate, then you're even dumber than I thought.

3. Uh, no dumb ass, that was clearly Enton: Yasaka Magatama, hints the sharingan tomoe shape of the fireballs. Itachi's still has a vastly larger AOE and faster activation. Sasuke's is more precise, but Itachi's doesn't need to be.

4. Uh, Itachi covered an entire forest in seconds with a single use of Ammy. Sasuke has nowhere near that capacity. ONE of the Kage's can block it. The others get vaporized, and that's if Gaara's not instantly caught in genjutsu.

5. What? Itachi can cast genjutsu at you simply by him pointing. Never did it say that you had to "look" at his finger, lol. How is it weak if it can affect multiple targets from a country away just by him pointing? thumb up

6. "Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu.", when did I even SUGGEST Naruto broke it himself? You're completely twisting my words again. I'll state it outright ONE more time. It takes two people to break one person out of Itachi's finger genjutsu. thumb up

Additionally, Madara's full power isn't as good at genjutsu as Itachi is, let alone that 4% full power clone that casually caught A in genjutsu. thumb up

7. That number DOES have basis, because we don't have any evidence suggesting wood clones are any different from other clones, dumb ass. thumb up

Show me where it ever suggested that you needed to look at Itachi's finger to be caught in his genjutsu. Because I can prove that he doesn't.

http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5038.jpg

"If I have just one finger, it's enough.", nothing about looking at his finger, lol.

8. Itachi not using any of his mangekyo attacks, that make up his entire arsenal of attacks useful against Bee, proves that Kabuto was simply toying with him. As soon as he did start getting serious, Koto amatsukami broke him out of Edo tensei.

9. Again, I never said it did. However, it instantly makes him remarkable at breaking out of genjutsu. Remember that anyone can break genjutsu with enough energy output to overpower the genjutsu's restriction on their chakra flow. Naruto, a powerful jinchuriki with hilariously more chakra than Itachi, still couldn't break a base genjutsu from Itachi by exerting all of his chakra. That is a near biju level feat from Itachi's base finger-genjutsu.

10. No, because Itachi and Sasuke, the only people Kabuto has ever fought while using Oro's cells, killed him in their only fight. Their are plenty of characters capable of shitting on him casually though. Hell, even Killer Bee would have shat on Kabuto by himself. The only difference is that Kabuto SPECIFICALLY made his body capable of countering Itachi and Sasuke's jutsu's. He's still, for the most part, useless against anyone around as strong as Lee or Neji. Naruto could have eaten Kabuto, honestly, but he was solo'ed with Bee by someone Itachi crapped on casually. I will admit. Itachi is nothing without his hax.

It WAS foreshadowed. Every time they've introduced a sharingan tech, their has always been another one for the other eye. It was painfully obvious when Tsukiyomi was introduced that their would be a fire jutsu named Amaterasu, and some kind of jutsu named Susano'o. In case you haven't realized, Naruto uses a lot of japanese mythology like that.

11. So how would the reader know? We saw Madara's casual Susano'o beating five Kage. It was assumed that Hashirama was not that much stronger than them before all the statements from Madara. There was no indication of Hashirama and Madara being casual country busters that could shit on everything casually, biju included. Perfect Susano'o was JUST as much of an ass-pul as Izanami, if not more.

12. Uh, BTW, you're the one who brought Kabuto up in the first place, dip-shit. thumb up

Define dozens of times. Sasuke tagged A once in that fight and that was due to him using a head on charge and he wasn't using his level 2 Raiton armor: only two people have been able to dodge A when he's using his fully speed.

Itachi couldn't have destroyed Chibaku Tensei on his own by his own admission nor could he have broken out of the Edo Tensei w/o Naruot being there to begin with. This is due to Itachi lacking the destructive power to deal with Chibaku Tensei on his own. Sure, he saved Naruto and Bee from Nagato but he couldn't have beat Nagato w/o their help.

Where is it stated Itachi had Enton or shown using it. If your talking about the fireballs he aimed at Sasuke, that's how Amateratsu initially works. Enton is the ability to manipulate the flames into spikes, or shuriken or even a swords: an ability only Sasuke has.

Seconds? where did that timeframe come from? Also Amateratsu is know to spread so having it cover the surrounding area of the hideout so it isn't hard to believe that Itachi could blanket the entire area with only a few shots of it.

You misinterpreted that panel. Looking at Itachi's finger is how Naruto got caught in the first place. If all Itachi had to do was point at people then all four of them would've been under it. Also it only took a smack to the face to break him out of it.

It only takes one person as illustrated in the Killer Bee example and the Onoki and A example. Naruto was still stunned but the genjustu ended when Sakura smacked him. It even said in the panel that Sakura smacked Naruto that he woke up from it. You stated that Naruto's high chakra would give him leverage to break out of it: which if that were the case would make Itachi look weak.

Except for the fact that Madara goes out of his was to tell the Kages how they are different. There so similar to the original that only Madara was able to tell Hashirama from the clones whenever they used him. Again simple math doesn't cut it when we don't have anything to base the number off of...

As for Itachi thing...I already posted it but I can do it again:
http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5039.jpg
In the above is when Naruto realizes how he fell under the genjustu.

Then that would me Kabuto was toying with Bee not Itachi. I person can't toy with someone if they don't have the free will to enact it themselves.

No they cannot. To break out of a genjutsu requires knowledge of the fact that your in one and a release formation that breaks you out of it. More chakra doesn't mean better genjutsu control. And regardless of how potent a genjutsu is unless it Tsukuyom(which has a clear restriction) or Koto Amatsukami(which is virtually a geass) an individual can be broken out of genjustu if the have a partner. Also why do you keep using Naruto as the basis for your genjustu argument? The Kages particularly Tsunade and Onoki are suited for dealing with Genjutsu recovery and damage. Furthermore you've yet to prove a reason why I should believe all five Kages would fall for a genjutsu simultaneously. Again if they could avoid 25 Madara's then they can avoid one Iatchi.

Beating someone doesn't necessarily mean your more powerful than them as proven in the Kisame vs Bee, Sakura/Chiyo vs Sasori, Shikamaru vs Hidan, Naruto vs Pein, or even Sasuke vs Itachi fights. Also the way Kabuto was beaten doesn't suggest that either of them were more powerful than him. With the upgrades Kabuto countered everything they had prior to Izanami.

What you described is not foreshadowing but rather guessing. Izanagi was foreshadowed, Susanoo (albeit poorly) was foreshadowed, Heck even Koto Amatsukami had hints leading up to it since Itachi encountered Naruto at the beginning of Part 2. Izanami literally came out of nowhere and not only that, was able to provide the exact means to beat Kabuto. None of the character prior to the Kabuto fight even hint that the Sharingan had such a power.

The readers would know since we knew Madara was dicking around with the SA and the Kages, we knew that the Susanoo Madara used while summoning meteors wasn't its full form due to its size and visible skeletal structure, and we knew that Madara was the only person in Hashirama's time that could compete with him. Therefore Madara's full Susanoo was foreshadowed even if we didn't know exactly what it was capable of.

The Kabuto example was made in order to rebut your claim that only and Uchiha could beat Itachi. Which again is false.

Badabing
SSJGGogeta, is it possible for you to debate without calling people names and getting hostile? You've been getting reported lately.



I can always talk down to you again in front of everybody. biscuits


Seriously, the bashing needs to stop.

Impediment
I gave him a week off to cool down.

I doubt it will, but we can hope.

dadudemon
Where do people get all of this time to post that much stuff?!?!?!?!?!?!

wakkawakkawakka
^ The actual debate was settled on the 3rd page. The rest is just a big "no you argument" that I was having with SSGJGogeta

chasedown
not bashing ssjgogeta or anything i just think he can act very childish and immature sometimes.


anyways back to the debate i think the final conclusion for this debate for this thread is itachi loses based on facts stated by wakka and the added facts that ms jutsus greatly fatigue itachi as he himself has stated before in part 1, and then we see for ourselves that he exhausted himself against sasuke. The 5 kage should do even more than exhaust itachi


anyone disagree?

psycho gundam
i'll battlezone ssgogeta when he gets back: his itachi vs my 5 kage

TheTyrant
Based on Shikaku's statement about Itachi's Genjutsu capability during this arc coupled with Kakashi telling Kurenai and Asuma to not look into Itachi's eyes during Tsukuyomi's activation, we can conclude that Itachi can easily cast a Genjutsu on at least 5 people.

Also, aside from Onoki, there's really nothing any of them can do once Susano'o is up in full force. Not to mention that none of them can break out of Tsukuyomi or deal with Amaterasu either. This is a spite match-up tbh.

Originally posted by chasedown
not bashing ssjgogeta or anything i just think he can act very childish and immature sometimes.


anyways back to the debate i think the final conclusion for this debate for this thread is itachi loses based on facts stated by wakka and the added facts that ms jutsus greatly fatigue itachi as he himself has stated before in part 1, and then we see for ourselves that he exhausted himself against sasuke. The 5 kage should do even more than exhaust itachi


anyone disagree?

I disagree. This is Edo Tensei Itachi, not half-dead or restricted by plot Itachi. He also didn't exhaust himself against Sasuke, he exhausted himself by using both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (which is honestly more of a plot restriction than anything)

-Alive healthy Itachi would win casually via countering Onoki's Dust Release with a Genjutsu and after dealing with him he'd put up Susano'o and then wtf are the Gokage going to do?

-Edo Tensei Itachi would also win since he can pretty much spam his Mangekyo Sharingan abilities despite being nerfed in stats.

-Itachi vs Sasuke fight Itachi could lose, but still doubtful.

Bottom line is the 5 Kage don't stand a chance against Itachi. He's the same guy who's one-paneled people on-par or stronger than most of these guys without even using one of his strong Jutsu. His hax are just too broken for any of these guys to deal with once Onoki's down. Tsunade and Mei are just lmao. Gaara is just garbage and Raikage was just slightly stronger than novice MS Sasuke.

chasedown
(Facepalm)

galactusischere
Itachi.

chasedown
I swear there are too many itachi fanboys on this website. Unless hes up against a god theyre gonna say he wins..... Without even really thinking about what they sayin.

TheTyrant
Originally posted by chasedown
I swear there are too many itachi fanboys on this website. Unless hes up against a god theyre gonna say he wins..... Without even really thinking about what they sayin. Then prove us wrong. You tried to push sick Itachi when this is Edo Tensei Itachi to begin with.

He can literally cast his Genjutsu on all 5 of them, kill Onoki, and the put up his complete Susano'o with Yata Mirror attached. Now what are they going to do other than run for their lives? And that's not even going to Tsukuyomi which is his most op ability.

chasedown
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Then prove us wrong. You tried to push sick Itachi when this is Edo Tensei Itachi to begin with.

He can literally cast his Genjutsu on all 5 of them, kill Onoki, and the put up his complete Susano'o with Yata Mirror attached. Now what are they going to do other than run for their lives? And that's not even going to Tsukuyomi which is his most op ability.

Like i said we dont know the number it inconclusive. You cant just give him a number. Just because you like itachi. The man said "that many" which could mean anywhere from 0 and up.

Also If itachi can do that why didnt his edo tensei form attempt to put bee and naruto under it in the beginning of their fight. Why didnt he do it against kakashi, kurenai asuma and gai in part 1 or against naruto and the group in the beggining of part 2. Hes had several chances to do what you claim yet weve only seen him cast genjutsu on one person at a time. One is the only conclusive number that we know for sure itachi can put under genjutsu. Any number other than one is pure speculation and can be debated unless you show concrete unarguable evidence that suggest otherwise (him actually doing it)

Also itachi is not a speed demon hes not faster than raikage, oonoki hast dust release which can damage susanoo and counter any ninjutsu that has an atomic structure, gaara can both pull him out of susanoo as well as trap him in the sand pyramid. Mei has hidden mist jutsu, acid mist jutsu, lava technique and other water releases. Tsunade is physically the strongest character weve seen in the verse and has mitotic regen apong with katsuya who cal continuously heal the team. Only final susanoo has been seen to break out of it.

If it werent for final susanoo the team would have beaten madara so you mean to tell me itachi is more capable than madara himself. I think not. If that was the case itachi would not have been a subordinate within the akatsuki.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Like i said we dont know the number it inconclusive. You cant just give him a number. Just because you like itachi. The man said "that many" which could mean anywhere from 0 and up.

Also If itachi can do that why didnt his edo tensei form attempt to put bee and naruto under it in the beginning of their fight. Why didnt he do it against kakashi, kurenai asuma and gai in part 1 or against naruto and the group in the beggining of part 2. Hes had several chances to do what you claim yet weve only seen him cast genjutsu on one person at a time. One is the only conclusive number that we know for sure itachi can put under genjutsu. Any number other than one is pure speculation and can be debated unless you show concrete unarguable evidence that suggest otherwise (him actually doing it)

Also itachi is not a speed demon hes not faster than raikage, oonoki hast dust release which can damage susanoo and counter any ninjutsu that has an atomic structure, gaara can both pull him out of susanoo as well as trap him in the sand pyramid. Mei has hidden mist jutsu, acid mist jutsu, lava technique and other water releases. Tsunade is physically the strongest character weve seen in the verse and has mitotic regen apong with katsuya who cal continuously heal the team. Only final susanoo has been seen to break out of it.

If it werent for final susanoo the team would have beaten madara so you mean to tell me itachi is more capable than madara himself. I think not. If that was the case itachi would not have been a subordinate within the akatsuki.

Kakashi also stated that it doesn't matter how many people are fighting Itachi, because if you can't escape his genjutsu on your own(in other words, if you don't have sharingan), then you lose, which is exactly why Chiyo was shocked at his ability. thumb up

Originally posted by chasedown
Also If itachi can do that why didnt his edo tensei form attempt to put bee and naruto under it in the beginning of their fight.

He did. thumb up

Originally posted by chasedown
Why didnt he do it against kakashi, kurenai asuma and gai in part 1 or against naruto and the group in the beggining of part 2.

"I came to give a message, not start a war.". Not to mention that he was already fatigued from using Tsukiyomi, and that he was fighting all jonin that could escape genjutsu or even clash with his. thumb up

And the Naruto thing? It was a 30% clone that had ALSO used tsukiyomi, and was fighting a bunch of people with counters to genjutsu, as one of them had sharingan. Your results are, again, inconclusive. The only people that have ever forced Itachi to use his full power have been sharingan users, or people that countered his genjutsu by changing their literal biology. The statement still stands, as none of the kage have demonstrable multi-person genjutsu defense, or speed even close to Itachi's.

Originally posted by chasedown
Also itachi is not a speed demon hes not faster than raikage, oonoki hast dust release which can damage susanoo and counter any ninjutsu that has an atomic structure, gaara can both pull him out of susanoo as well as trap him in the sand pyramid. Mei has hidden mist jutsu, acid mist jutsu, lava technique and other water releases. Tsunade is physically the strongest character weve seen in the verse and has mitotic regen apong with katsuya who cal continuously heal the team. Only final susanoo has been seen to break out of it.

Just to clarify on Itachi's speed, you're wrong . Must I post the scans again? Speed terms: Itachi>Nagato>>Naruto=Killer Bee>Raikage. I.e. Itachi>>>>Raikage. You seem to forget that even a dying, ill, barely-conscious Itachi was able to block an attack as fast as Raikage's most impressive jutsu. thumb up

None of those things matter, as they are all in genjutsu, and Itachi is hilariously faster than all of them anyways.

Tsunade? I think you're forgetting that Naruto casually lifted and threw multiple biju, and did so easily. The same Naruto who demonstrated to be helpless when faced with Nagato level strength. And that's the Nagato that Itachi one-shotted. thumb up

wakkawakkawakka
I find it funny how this thread keeps getting revived. I still can't help but be compelled to give my input though so I guess I'm at fault too.


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Kakashi also stated that it doesn't matter how many people are fighting Itachi, because if you can't escape his genjutsu on your own(in other words, if you don't have sharingan), then you lose, which is exactly why Chiyo was shocked at his ability. thumb up

You know there are 5 people in this fight right? Also that would be nice if Itachi had on-panel feats of casting genjutsu on multiple people simultaneously. But unless your ready to bring something out right now I can safely say Itachi doesn't have such feats.

Note that I'm not denying Itachi's capability of doing so but rather dismissing the notion that it can be used to argue a point in a vs. debate since we only have "word of mouth" to go off of.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta




He did. thumb up


No he didn't or at least not both Naruto and Bee at the same time. Bee was the only person caught in genjutsu and he immediately broke out of it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta




"I came to give a message, not start a war.". Not to mention that he was already fatigued from using Tsukiyomi, and that he was fighting all jonin that could escape genjutsu or even clash with his. thumb up

And the Naruto thing? It was a 30% clone that had ALSO used tsukiyomi, and was fighting a bunch of people with counters to genjutsu, as one of them had sharingan. Your results are, again, inconclusive. The only people that have ever forced Itachi to use his full power have been sharingan users, or people that countered his genjutsu by changing their literal biology. The statement still stands, as none of the kage have demonstrable multi-person genjutsu defense, or speed even close to Itachi's.



So...that doesn't explain why he didn't use it before. He had no problem using genjutsu counter against Kurenai and seemed to be pretty well before the Tsukuyomi. Also how does that quote help Itachi's case? considering his "no war" goal would've been achieved easier if the Jonin were incapacitated non-lethally with something like genjutsu.

That 30% number doesn't mean much in this instance. Aso mentioning the people there that had counters to genjutsu just proves the point that Itachi can't affect people with genjutsu resistance easily. Remember out of the people he could've affected at the time, only Naruto(the person with the least genjutsu skill) was caught. There are 5 Kage here, two of which could easily repair any trauma done by genjutsu. The notion that the Kage are less genjutsu resistant than the 4 people in the group against Itachi is absurd.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta


Just to clarify on Itachi's speed, you're wrong . Must I post the scans again? Speed terms: Itachi>Nagato>>Naruto=Killer Bee>Raikage. I.e. Itachi>>>>Raikage. You seem to forget that even a dying, ill, barely-conscious Itachi was able to block an attack as fast as Raikage's most impressive jutsu. thumb up

None of those things matter, as they are all in genjutsu, and Itachi is hilariously faster than all of them anyways.

Tsunade? I think you're forgetting that Naruto casually lifted and threw multiple biju, and did so easily. The same Naruto who demonstrated to be helpless when faced with Nagato level strength. And that's the Nagato that Itachi one-shotted. thumb up
So according to your A,B,C logic Kabuto and Sasuke are two of the fastest characters in the series right? Because if you seriously believe that scale above, Then that means both Kabuto and Sasuke are Minato level in terms of reaction time and speed. Would like to point out that Itachi hasn't successfully tagged someone while moving under their "superspeed" condition. And yes it would certainly help your case of Itachi tagging someone while they were using their method of "super speed".

Not really. He's not faster than A and even if he was(he's not) genjutsu that isn't Tsukuyomi isn't effective if there are people to break you out of it. One Kage is more than enough to keep Itachi's hands full even if its only a means of distraction.

KCM Naruto doesn't have Sage Mode strength plus Nagato was using Human Path on Naruto meaning that physical strength was useless. Also when did Naruto lift biju and what does that have to do with Itachi? Itachi needed help to seal Nagato so it's not entirely his victory.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
You know there are 5 people in this fight right? Also that would be nice if Itachi had on-panel feats of casting genjutsu on multiple people simultaneously. But unless your ready to bring something out right now I can safely say Itachi doesn't have such feats.

Note that I'm not denying Itachi's capability of doing so but rather dismissing the notion that it can be used to argue a point in a vs. debate since we only have "word of mouth" to go off of.

How about you disprove Shikaku's statement, first and foremost? You know, because you still haven't, and it proves Itachi can at least capture two people in genjutsu at one time. Oh! and the "they can break out of it with their teammates", argument is retarded, because as I've explained pain-stakingly often before, IT GIVES ITACHI AN OPPORTUNITY VAPORIZE TWO KAGE WITH A PASSING GLANCE, THAT THEY CAN'T AVOID.

So basically, you won't admit I'm right because you don't want to admit that your preferred characters will lose? Glad you admit it.

thumb up

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
No he didn't or at least not both Naruto and Bee at the same time. Bee was the only person caught in genjutsu and he immediately broke out of it.

Exactly. And do you know why Bee broke out of it? BECAUSE HE'S A FULLY-REALIZED JINCHURIKI. I never said Itachi could cast genjutsu on a biju while it's sealed. The same thing would have happened if he did it to Naruto, which would have resulted in him wasting even more time and energy.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So...that doesn't explain why he didn't use it before. He had no problem using genjutsu counter against Kurenai and seemed to be pretty well before the Tsukuyomi. Also how does that quote help Itachi's case? considering his "no war" goal would've been achieved easier if the Jonin were incapacitated non-lethally with something like genjutsu.

So... The fact that he didn't want to waste his chakra using genjutsu when he didn't want to fight in the first place doesn't prove that he didn't want to waste his chakra using genjutsu when he didn't want to fight in the first place? I phucking hate this website sometimes...

You clearly didn't understand my point. Itachi could have cast genjutsu on the jonin. It would have been mostly pointless though, because three of the four jonin he was fighting had counters, or could simply release it. That's why he used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. Kakashi was a hardened sharingan user, and could see through his normal stuff pretty handily. Tsukiyomi though, no one can, unless Itachi lets them. Even when Sasuke did it, it was only because Itachi was dying, and let him break out of it.

Again, three of the jonin could counter his base genjutsu, and he can't use Tsukiyomi on three people in one day without being completely exhausted, and making his eyesight even worse. That, paired with the fact that he was already dying is enough to completely prove that Itachi was holding back... as he said. *sigh*

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
That 30% number doesn't mean much in this instance. Aso mentioning the people there that had counters to genjutsu just proves the point that Itachi can't affect people with genjutsu resistance easily. Remember out of the people he could've affected at the time, only Naruto(the person with the least genjutsu skill) was caught. There are 5 Kage here, two of which could easily repair any trauma done by genjutsu. The notion that the Kage are less genjutsu resistant than the 4 people in the group against Itachi is absurd.

So show me a scan of any of the kage resisting genjutsu on their own. Go ahead, I'll wait. Oh right, you can't. The only one with demonstrable genjutsu defense is Tsunade, and that's only because of a statement. Sure, the kage can break eachother out of it, but NOT if Itachi captures them all in it at once. He can at least use it on two people though, meaning that it would leave him fighting one on one with one of the kage, while two others relieved the two caught in genjutsu, leading to at least three of them being killed on the spot, as he could quickly eliminate the one he was one on one with, and vaporized at least one that he caught under genjutsu and the one healing him. That leaves him to cast it on the remaining two before assassinating them. Boom, they're dead. Give me ONE feat that says they could do ANYTHING to stop him from doing that. thumb up

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So according to your A,B,C logic Kabuto and Sasuke are two of the fastest characters in the series right? Because if you seriously believe that scale above, Then that means both Kabuto and Sasuke are Minato level in terms of reaction time and speed. Would like to point out that Itachi hasn't successfully tagged someone while moving under their "superspeed" condition. And yes it would certainly help your case of Itachi tagging someone while they were using their method of "super speed".

Yeah, pretty much. You're neglecting the fact that Kabuto traveled to the alliance in mere minutes, which is even faster than the kage could travel on Gaara's sand(which happens to be MUCH faster than the Raikage). What does Minato have to do with this? He is SLOW without Hiraishin. He, at best, only has around Kakashi w/sharingan level reaction speed. However, he has Hiraishin, which makes him light speed, but only when warping. That's why the Raikage nearly lobbed his head off, but he could warp away from it, but barely missed getting tagged by Bee's tentacles when not using Hiraishin. Sasuke was fast enough at that point to fight on par with people like Bijuu mode Naruto.

I don't know how to post Naruto moving at "superspeed", when he is doing so simply by being in KCM. You neglecting literal feats just makes you seem stupid.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Not really. He's not faster than A and even if he was(he's not) genjutsu that isn't Tsukuyomi isn't effective if there are people to break you out of it. One Kage is more than enough to keep Itachi's hands full even if its only a means of distraction.

I've already proven that Itachi's faster. You denying it with no proof other than fangirl bias does nothing to help your case.

You're forgetting that to break someone out of even base genjutsu, it requires direct physical contact and several seconds of motionlessness. That is the perfect formula for a shot of Ammy to kill two metaphorical birds with one stone.

PFFT, One kage was enough to keep KCM Naruto distracted, by one Nagato was enough to solo him AND Bee, two Kage+ level characters, and Itachi was enough to ONE-SHOT Nagato, the same thing he would, even more casually, do to ANY of the Kage. thumb up

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
KCM Naruto doesn't have Sage Mode strength plus Nagato was using Human Path on Naruto meaning that physical strength was useless. Also when did Naruto lift biju and what does that have to do with Itachi? Itachi needed help to seal Nagato so it's not entirely his victory.

Umm, what? KCM Naruto stomped Kisame into the ground, threw a meteor off course, and overpowered several biju sized summons. Nowhere was it stated that Sage mode was stronger. In fact, it was insinuated that it wasn't.

How do you think Naruto was pulling his soul back in then? Physical strength obviously does matter, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to keep Nagato from stealing his soul immediately. Not to mention that he couldn't even break free from Nagato's hold, which again reinforces the fact that Nagato was hilariously superior.

Itachi needed help? With what? Are you talking about the three-way attack on planetary devastation? Itachi still had Susano'o, you know, and could still insta-seal Nagato with Totsuka blade like he did. Either way, if Itachi is blood-lusted, this fight ends with five stabs that the Kage can't react to. thumb up

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How about you disprove Shikaku's statement, first and foremost? You know, because you still haven't, and it proves Itachi can at least capture two people in genjutsu at one time. Oh! and the "they can break out of it with their teammates", argument is retarded, because as I've explained pain-stakingly often before, IT GIVES ITACHI AN OPPORTUNITY VAPORIZE TWO KAGE WITH A PASSING GLANCE, THAT THEY CAN'T AVOID.

So basically, you won't admit I'm right because you don't want to admit that your preferred characters will lose? Glad you admit it.


If Itachi doesn't have on panel feats of something or the equivalent, then you can't just give him some feats based on "word of mouth" alone especially if there isn't any knowledge as to how he would cast it or how powerful the genjutsu in question would be.

I don't have to disprove Shikaku's statement since I already agree with it. With that said you can't use that statement to give Itachi feats that he himself hasn't shown.


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Exactly. And do you know why Bee broke out of it? BECAUSE HE'S A FULLY-REALIZED JINCHURIKI. I never said Itachi could cast genjutsu on a biju while it's sealed. The same thing would have happened if he did it to Naruto, which would have resulted in him wasting even more time and energy.

Bringing up Bee was an example of genjutsu cast by Itachi, being counter with only one other person breaking him out of it. There are 5 people here so if one gets caught then 4 others can break them out of it.


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta


So... The fact that he didn't want to waste his chakra using genjutsu when he didn't want to fight in the first place doesn't prove that he didn't want to waste his chakra using genjutsu when he didn't want to fight in the first place? I phucking hate this website sometimes...

You clearly didn't understand my point. Itachi could have cast genjutsu on the jonin. It would have been mostly pointless though, because three of the four jonin he was fighting had counters, or could simply release it. That's why he used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. Kakashi was a hardened sharingan user, and could see through his normal stuff pretty handily. Tsukiyomi though, no one can, unless Itachi lets them. Even when Sasuke did it, it was only because Itachi was dying, and let him break out of it.

Again, three of the jonin could counter his base genjutsu, and he can't use Tsukiyomi on three people in one day without being completely exhausted, and making his eyesight even worse. That, paired with the fact that he was already dying is enough to completely prove that Itachi was holding back... as he said. *sigh*

He was already caught by 2 Jonin by that point, he couldn't just run away and if he didn't want to kill people why not just cast genjutsu on both of them. He didn't even have to use Tsukuyomi to do so since he already proved himself superior in genjutsu to Kurenai without it. Again this doesn't help Itachi's case.

So your just going to give the Jonin genjutsu counters even though your accusing me of given the Kages feat they don't have. Itachi was drained after using it on Kakashi, or at the very least wasn't at 100% while using it. Plus despite Tsukuyomi's power, it requires direct eye contact to work something that, one again, the Kages have means of avoiding. Kakashi's folly was trying to match Itachi in a genjutsu battle he had no chance of winning Sharingan or otherwise.

Counters to his base genjutsu, so your just going to give the Jonin feats but exclude them from the Kage. Sure I'll give you Kurenai and Kakashi but Asuma has shown no such feats. Oh and if your going to give genjutsu counters as an implicit ability of elite ninja like water-walking, then the Kages also get that feat due to equivalency.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta



So show me a scan of any of the kage resisting genjutsu on their own. Go ahead, I'll wait. Oh right, you can't. The only one with demonstrable genjutsu defense is Tsunade, and that's only because of a statement. Sure, the kage can break eachother out of it, but NOT if Itachi captures them all in it at once. He can at least use it on two people though, meaning that it would leave him fighting one on one with one of the kage, while two others relieved the two caught in genjutsu, leading to at least three of them being killed on the spot, as he could quickly eliminate the one he was one on one with, and vaporized at least one that he caught under genjutsu and the one healing him. That leaves him to cast it on the remaining two before assassinating them. Boom, they're dead. Give me ONE feat that says they could do ANYTHING to stop him from doing that. thumb up


Don't have to since I've already proven that it only takes one person to break people out of genjutsu that isn't Tsukuyomi. Furthermore, if I'm going to show you this, then could you at least direct me to a statement or feats of Asuma having genjutsu resistance. Furthermore, Itachi can't just cast 5 people under genjutsu at once if we don't know the means to how he can do it. Along with this your greatly overestimating Itachi's abilities, because even as an Edo he wasn't able to use MS techniques back to back. The Tosuka blade is his best bet and depending on who he captures in genjutsu, assuming he gets anyone under it, the Kage's still have means to avoid and counter it.

Also Tsunade has on-panel feats of repairing mental trauma and Onoki has on-panel feats of breaking people out of genjutsu.



Originally posted by SSJGGogeta


Yeah, pretty much. You're neglecting the fact that Kabuto traveled to the alliance in mere minutes, which is even faster than the kage could travel on Gaara's sand(which happens to be MUCH faster than the Raikage). What does Minato have to do with this? He is SLOW without Hiraishin. He, at best, only has around Kakashi w/sharingan level reaction speed. However, he has Hiraishin, which makes him light speed, but only when warping. That's why the Raikage nearly lobbed his head off, but he could warp away from it, but barely missed getting tagged by Bee's tentacles when not using Hiraishin. Sasuke was fast enough at that point to fight on par with people like Bijuu mode Naruto.

I don't know how to post Naruto moving at "superspeed", when he is doing so simply by being in KCM. You neglecting literal feats just makes you seem stupid.



I've already proven that Itachi's faster. You denying it with no proof other than fangirl bias does nothing to help your case.



You seriously can't believe that. That's a false comparison for 1, due to the simple fact that travel speed =/= combat speed. Last time I checked, Kabuto wasn't moving at lightning speeds while fighting. Gaara's sand intercepted A in mid-air and not while he was using his uber-body flicker. Minato has bar-none the best reaction time in the series which is one of the reason why his FTG is so potent. Stating that Kabuto and Sasuke are faster than Itachi would elevate their speed and reaction time to Minato FTG and reaction time as well. Sasuke didn't fight o par with Biju-mode Naruto, no where near close to it.


That's not my problem. To convey the notion that Itachi is faster than A requires a feat where Naruto used his top-speed
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Umm, what? KCM Naruto stomped Kisame into the ground, threw a meteor off course, and overpowered several biju sized summons. Nowhere was it stated that Sage mode was stronger. In fact, it was insinuated that it wasn't.

How do you think Naruto was pulling his soul back in then? Physical strength obviously does matter, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to keep Nagato from stealing his soul immediately. Not to mention that he couldn't even break free from Nagato's hold, which again reinforces the fact that Nagato was hilariously superior.

Itachi needed help? With what? Are you talking about the three-way attack on planetary devastation? Itachi still had Susano'o, you know, and could still insta-seal Nagato with Totsuka blade like he did. Either way, if Itachi is blood-lusted, this fight ends with five stabs that the Kage can't react to. thumb up

That's not really much of anything considering people much weaker than Naruto have done similar feats. Furthermore Sage Mode Naruto is only surpassed by Sakura an Tsunade in terms of strength feats so using Kisame really isn't the best example of Naruto's strength.

Naruto was pull his soul back in a similar fashion to how he was able to pull Kurama's chakra. If physical strength was all that was required to break out of human path, there would've been at least some resistance shown to it in the Pein Invasion. Therefore it can be concluded that Human Path, is able to bypass physical strength.

So...why didn't he? Was it because he was also being pulled in By Chibaku Tensei? Nothing Itachi showed at that point would be convincing as evidence that he could stop Chibaku Tensei on his own and this jutsu has also been shown to resist biju so yeah, that wasn't Itachi's victory. Even if Itachi were bloodlusted, that would just mean that the Kage's no longer have to deal with genjutsu or Amateratsu. Also the blade only works if it hits you meaning that A can dodge it or Gaara can fly the Kage's out the way and even pull Itachi out of his Susanoo. Oh and the uber Particle Style Tech that Onoki can use with Tsunade could bypass that as well: Kirin proves that the extent that Itachi can keep Susanoo materialized fully has a limit. Considering what the Particle beam did, it is same to assume that it can indeed pass that limit.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If Itachi doesn't have on panel feats of something or the equivalent, then you can't just give him some feats based on "word of mouth" alone especially if there isn't any knowledge as to how he would cast it or how powerful the genjutsu in question would be.

I don't have to disprove Shikaku's statement since I already agree with it. With that said you can't use that statement to give Itachi feats that he himself hasn't shown.



Bringing up Bee was an example of genjutsu cast by Itachi, being counter with only one other person breaking him out of it. There are 5 people here so if one gets caught then 4 others can break them out of it.



He was already caught by 2 Jonin by that point, he couldn't just run away and if he didn't want to kill people why not just cast genjutsu on both of them. He didn't even have to use Tsukuyomi to do so since he already proved himself superior in genjutsu to Kurenai without it. Again this doesn't help Itachi's case.

So your just going to give the Jonin genjutsu counters even though your accusing me of given the Kages feat they don't have. Itachi was drained after using it on Kakashi, or at the very least wasn't at 100% while using it. Plus despite Tsukuyomi's power, it requires direct eye contact to work something that, one again, the Kages have means of avoiding. Kakashi's folly was trying to match Itachi in a genjutsu battle he had no chance of winning Sharingan or otherwise.

Counters to his base genjutsu, so your just going to give the Jonin feats but exclude them from the Kage. Sure I'll give you Kurenai and Kakashi but Asuma has shown no such feats. Oh and if your going to give genjutsu counters as an implicit ability of elite ninja like water-walking, then the Kages also get that feat due to equivalency.


Don't have to since I've already proven that it only takes one person to break people out of genjutsu that isn't Tsukuyomi. Furthermore, if I'm going to show you this, then could you at least direct me to a statement or feats of Asuma having genjutsu resistance. Furthermore, Itachi can't just cast 5 people under genjutsu at once if we don't know the means to how he can do it. Along with this your greatly overestimating Itachi's abilities, because even as an Edo he wasn't able to use MS techniques back to back. The Tosuka blade is his best bet and depending on who he captures in genjutsu, assuming he gets anyone under it, the Kage's still have means to avoid and counter it.

Also Tsunade has on-panel feats of repairing mental trauma and Onoki has on-panel feats of breaking people out of genjutsu.




You seriously can't believe that. That's a false comparison for 1, due to the simple fact that travel speed =/= combat speed. Last time I checked, Kabuto wasn't moving at lightning speeds while fighting. Gaara's sand intercepted A in mid-air and not while he was using his uber-body flicker. Minato has bar-none the best reaction time in the series which is one of the reason why his FTG is so potent. Stating that Kabuto and Sasuke are faster than Itachi would elevate their speed and reaction time to Minato FTG and reaction time as well. Sasuke didn't fight o par with Biju-mode Naruto, no where near close to it.


That's not my problem. To convey the notion that Itachi is faster than A requires a feat where Naruto used his top-speed


That's not really much of anything considering people much weaker than Naruto have done similar feats. Furthermore Sage Mode Naruto is only surpassed by Sakura an Tsunade in terms of strength feats so using Kisame really isn't the best example of Naruto's strength.

Naruto was pull his soul back in a similar fashion to how he was able to pull Kurama's chakra. If physical strength was all that was required to break out of human path, there would've been at least some resistance shown to it in the Pein Invasion. Therefore it can be concluded that Human Path, is able to bypass physical strength.

So...why didn't he? Was it because he was also being pulled in By Chibaku Tensei? Nothing Itachi showed at that point would be convincing as evidence that he could stop Chibaku Tensei on his own and this jutsu has also been shown to resist biju so yeah, that wasn't Itachi's victory. Even if Itachi were bloodlusted, that would just mean that the Kage's no longer have to deal with genjutsu or Amateratsu. Also the blade only works if it hits you meaning that A can dodge it or Gaara can fly the Kage's out the way and even pull Itachi out of his Susanoo. Oh and the uber Particle Style Tech that Onoki can use with Tsunade could bypass that as well: Kirin proves that the extent that Itachi can keep Susanoo materialized fully has a limit. Considering what the Particle beam did, it is same to assume that it can indeed pass that limit.

1. So I'm right, but I'm also wrong? No, the statement was made, you haven't disproved it, so I'm right.

2. None of the kage have Biju level chakra other than Raikage, and none of them are literally sealed into another, so they can all be caught in genjutsu. thumb up

3. Kurenai was still a talented genjutsu user, and the only way he could beat her with genjutsu was if Kisame fought Asuma, which would attract more attention, which it did. Again, he didn't want to fight a war. Plus, Kakashi got there pretty quickly.

4. The Jonin have demonstrated or at least been stated to have genjutsu counters. The Kage, except for Tsunade, have not.

5. THE JONIN HAVE DEMONSTRATED OR AT LEAST BEEN STATED TO HAVE GENJUTSU COUNTERS. THE KAGE, EXCEPT FOR TSUNADE, HAVE NOT. thumb up

6. I never said Asuma did. Hints the way I said "three of the four jonin he was fighting had counters, or could simply release it.", thumb up . God, sometimes I think you're legitimately retarded.

7. http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5050.jpg

No, you haven't disproved it. If you want to try again, then go ahead, prove that you need less than two people to break Itachi's genjutsu, unless the person has sharingan, is a skilled genjutsu user, or is a jinchuriki. And since you're so dead-set on feats only, go ahead and post a scan of it. Oh! and I know you're gonna post the Sakura slapping Naruto thing, so I'll say this again. HE. WAS. ALREADY. OUT. OF. THE. GENJUTSU. (I just posted the scan, genius). As I said, I'll wait. thumb up

8. None of them have feats of breaking Itachi level genjutsu. So again, it still takes two people to break one out of it. thumb up

9. So last time you checked, you obviously didn't notice that Kabuto was fighting someone with a speed feat above Raikage, as well as a feat of blocking lightning on his deathbed.

Gaara used his sand to block Raikage using Armor level 1. Don't try nit-picking it, because you sound retarded. He was using his speed. Otherwise, prove that he wasn't. Not to mention that Gaara blocked Amaterasu with his sand.

Give feats, or you're wrong. I already proved that Minato is slower than Killer Bee without Hiraishin, and that's a much weaker Killer Bee than the one who trained Naruto.

Yeah, Sasuke did fight on par with Biju mode Naruto, as he held him up many times, and was even stated to be equal to Biju mode Naruto by Minato himself.

thumb up

I already have. What you have yet to do is prove that Naruto wasn't using his KCM speed, while he was in his KCM. That just sounds retarded, lol. Phucking ignorant, fan-wankers, I swear.

10. You making statements gets you nowhere. Since you have yet to provide feats, I accept your concession.

Prove it. Oh wait, you can't, because the accusation that a couple of chunnin level ninja and lower could stand up to Pain is ludicrous.

Uh, he kind of did. You know, by one-shotting Nagato with an attack he couldn't react to, with his reaction speed that dominated two characters faster than Raikage. thumb up

What? Itachi could have just sealed Planetary devastation with a stab of the totsuka blade. The same way he sealed the sword of Kusanagi with it. thumb up

AGAIN, A CAN'T DODGE IT BECAUSE A PERSON FAST ENOUGH TO SHIT-STOMP TWO CHARACTERS FASTER THAN A AT THE SAME TIME, COULDN'T EVEN REACT TO THE SWORD, MEANING A GET'S SEALED BEFORE HE KNOWS THAT HE WAS STABBED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Anyway, I'm done with this. It's obvious that you're wrong, and Itachi wins. You've dodged the argument for too long, so later. wink

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. So I'm right, but I'm also wrong? No, the statement was made, you haven't disproved it, so I'm right.

2. None of the kage have Biju level chakra other than Raikage, and none of them are literally sealed into another, so they can all be caught in genjutsu.

3. Kurenai was still a talented genjutsu user, and the only way he could beat her with genjutsu was if Kisame fought Asuma, which would attract more attention, which it did. Again, he didn't want to fight a war. Plus, Kakashi got there pretty quickly.

4. The Jonin have demonstrated or at least been stated to have genjutsu counters. The Kage, except for Tsunade, have not.

5. THE JONIN HAVE DEMONSTRATED OR AT LEAST BEEN STATED TO HAVE GENJUTSU COUNTERS. THE KAGE, EXCEPT FOR TSUNADE, HAVE NOT.

6. I never said Asuma did. Hints the way I said "three of the four jonin he was fighting had counters, or could simply release it.", thumb up . God, sometimes I think you're legitimately retarded.

7. http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/259/naruto-5050.jpg

No, you haven't disproved it. If you want to try again, then go ahead, prove that you need less than two people to break Itachi's genjutsu, unless the person has sharingan, is a skilled genjutsu user, or is a jinchuriki. And since you're so dead-set on feats only, go ahead and post a scan of it. Oh! and I know you're gonna post the Sakura slapping Naruto thing, so I'll say this again. HE. WAS. ALREADY. OUT. OF. THE. GENJUTSU. (I just posted the scan, genius). As I said, I'll wait.

8. None of them have feats of breaking Itachi level genjutsu. So again, it still takes two people to break one out of it.

9. So last time you checked, you obviously didn't notice that Kabuto was fighting someone with a speed feat above Raikage, as well as a feat of blocking lightning on his deathbed.

Gaara used his sand to block Raikage using Armor level 1. Don't try nit-picking it, because you sound retarded. He was using his speed. Otherwise, prove that he wasn't. Not to mention that Gaara blocked Amaterasu with his sand.

Give feats, or you're wrong. I already proved that Minato is slower than Killer Bee without Hiraishin, and that's a much weaker Killer Bee than the one who trained Naruto.

Yeah, Sasuke did fight on par with Biju mode Naruto, as he held him up many times, and was even stated to be equal to Biju mode Naruto by Minato himself.



I already have. What you have yet to do is prove that Naruto wasn't using his KCM speed, while he was in his KCM. That just sounds retarded, lol. Phucking ignorant, fan-wankers, I swear.

10. You making statements gets you nowhere. Since you have yet to provide feats, I accept your concession.

Prove it. Oh wait, you can't, because the accusation that a couple of chunnin level ninja and lower could stand up to Pain is ludicrous.

Uh, he kind of did. You know, by one-shotting Nagato with an attack he couldn't react to, with his reaction speed that dominated two characters faster than Raikage. thumb up

What? Itachi could have just sealed Planetary devastation with a stab of the totsuka blade. The same way he sealed the sword of Kusanagi with it.

AGAIN, A CAN'T DODGE IT BECAUSE A PERSON FAST ENOUGH TO SHIT-STOMP TWO CHARACTERS FASTER THAN A AT THE SAME TIME, COULDN'T EVEN REACT TO THE SWORD, MEANING A GET'S SEALED BEFORE HE KNOWS THAT HE WAS STABBED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Anyway, I'm done with this. It's obvious that you're wrong, and Itachi wins. You've dodged the argument for too long, so later. wink

You're still wrong in the sense that Itachi can't feasibly cast genjutsu in the manner you're impling. Granted Shikaku did state that, we have no means of know how Itachi can do it or how powerful it is. Just saying that Itachi has the capacity to do something isn't enough especially since Itachi has had more than enough appearances in the series to showcase what you're arguing but hasn't. Again I could completely drop this argument if there were on-panel feats of Itachi casting genjutsu on multiple people.

You misunderstanding how Bee was able to get out of that genjutsu. Having biju level chakra doesn't make you immune to genjutsu but rather the ability to have the biju act as a companion. Gyuuki is the separate entity that broke him out akin to another person doing it. Besides if all it took was high chakra to break people out of genjutsu then Naruto would have no problem with them.

But according to your previous post, there is an implication that both somehow have more genjutsu resistance than the Kages which I still say is absurd. Furthermore, considering how you're implying that Itachi can cast genjutsu on multiple people, it still doesn't make sense why he didn't do it against both Jonin at the same time since it would not only be non-lethal, but it would draw even less attention than the fight.

Implicit feats. Akin to water-walking, most higher tier ninja would have at least some knowledge of genjutsu resistance. Asuma hasn't shown that but is implied to have it, therefore all other jonin as well as Kages are also implied to have it. And considering Onoki has on-panel evidence of breaking people out of genjutsu and knows how the base-Sharingan works, he would be the least threatened by Itachi's genjutsu.

Capitalizing letters doesn't make the feats any less valid.

Which still excludes Asuma. Also Gai's way of avoinding it ,he was one of the jonin present at that time remember, is virtually the same as Onoki's suggestion in addition to some that A has already demonstrated. As for releasing genjutsu, again there are 5 Kages here so even if Itachi catches one under genjutsu that leaves 3 to fight him and one to dispel it.

The proceeding scan already shows Naruto out of the genjustu. It even states on the panel that he's waking up from it. Even if he was still shaken up, the genjutsu was already oout of it Here I'll post it again and may I ask why you keep using Naruto, a person confirmed to be bad at genjutsu, as the basis for your argument?:
http://i30.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567895.jpg

So you proved yourself wrong? Let me ask this then, Since you finally admit that Naruto was already out of the genjustu Itachi cast( A point that I made first BTW) why do you keep posting the Sakura and Chiyo scan? Itachi's only fought those type of opponents and Onoki broke A out of genjutsu from a guy that was significantly more powerful than the Itachi clone so I really don't need to do that. Again you're whole argument is based off of something Itachi simply doesn't have feats for

Onoki broke Madara genjutsu. Madara>>>Itachi as proven by the series itself. And they all have methods of avoiding it since the Kages all know to avoid direct eye contact. Mei's Hidden Mist jutsu in particular make Itachi virtually blind and Gaara' 3rd eye/flight eliminates the risk of direct eye contact.

Where is this speed feat? Only 2 people(maybe 3 for Gai's 8th gate) are faster than A. Kabuto hasn't been shown to move nearly as fast as either A or KCM naruto even in Sage Mode. Itachi being tagged by Sasuke, who was slower than Bee at the time, proves that he isn't no where near Naruto's speed.

A was using v2 and was doing a guillotine drop kick which wasn't using superspeed: this is indicated by several people(including Karin and Darui) seeing A use that attack in normal time. Even if it was as fast, Itachi still doesn't have any means of avoiding either the sand or A's speed at the same time

Minato reacting to A's punch and Obito's Kamui on top of the biju bomb launched at the SA is better than anything Itachi has done. Also Bee knew where Minato was going to port and prepared the attack beforehand: that's not proof that Bee is faster than Minato. Minato is still the undisputed speed king of the Narutoverse even with the recent jobber treatment he's received.

When did that happen? Sasuke and Naruto haven't fought against one another in the recent arc. Furthermore, by that point both Naruto and Sasuke were more powerful than Itachi so your point is moot.

Naruto used "Yellow Flash" speed to avoid A, the 3rd Raikage, and block 5 biju balls. Where in the manga has Itachi been able to tag Naruto when using this level of speed?

How so?

The fact that there wasn't any resistance to Human Path is the indicator that it bypasses physical strength. Naruto already had experience with a force pulling his chakra and knew how to deal with it. Also what does this have to do with Itachi?

Itachi did that after Chibaku Tensei was destroyed, which was only accomplished with help. Itachi couldn't have gotten that shot at Nagato on his own while Chibaku Tensei was up. Otherwise why not do it immediately after saving Naruto and Bee?

Then why didn't he seal Chibaku Tensei? It would've been much simpler and he had the free will to do just that.

A can avoid the Sharingan while moving meaning he can avoid both Amateratsu and the Tosuka Blade.

Dodged what argument? I'll post my initial argument as to how the Kages win. A can avoid the sharingan, Mei can melt susanoo and eliminate visibility, Onoki has particle style that can destroy Susanoo(san Yata Miror), Gaara can fly and block Amateratsu along with pulling Itachi out of Susanoo, Tsunade is a heal bot that has regen and can break a partially formed Susanoo. And Itachi has no defense for the combo attack the Kages can use.

Itachi is not better than Madara which is what you're implying by stating that he can win.

chasedown
A number cant just be created out of thin air especially if we know nothing of how the jutsu works or is performed..... Therefore the feat cant be used...... Only concrete evidence stands


Thats like going to court and convicting someone of a crime because of word of mouth it cant happen. In order to convict you need unargueable evidence to convict..... The same premise hold true in a debate facts must be shown not speculation.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by psycho gundam
i'll battlezone ssgogeta when he gets back: his itachi vs my 5 kage

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by chasedown
Unless hes up against a god theyre gonna say he wins..... Without even really thinking about what they sayin.

Get your head out of your ass. Itachi soloes. kruemelmonsteryn0

chasedown
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Get your head out of your ass. Itachi soloes. kruemelmonsteryn0

Haha lol case and point

psycho gundam
let's have a battlezone shifty

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
A number cant just be created out of thin air especially if we know nothing of how the jutsu works or is performed..... Therefore the feat cant be used...... Only concrete evidence stands


Thats like going to court and convicting someone of a crime because of word of mouth it cant happen. In order to convict you need unargueable evidence to convict..... The same premise hold true in a debate facts must be shown not speculation.

Exactly, which is why I just used only concrete evidence. You discounting it only shows your ignorance.

So why did OJ Simpson nearly get sent to prison? Hell, watch the move "Shawshank redemption", and you'll know how stupid you just made yourself look.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by psycho gundam
let's have a battlezone shifty

Hell, I'm game. cool

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Exactly, which is why I just used only concrete evidence. You discounting it only shows your ignorance.

So why did OJ Simpson nearly get sent to prison? Hell, watch the move "Shawshank redemption", and you'll know how stupid you just made yourself look.

"That many" isnt concrete evidence at all and doesnt give an exact number.

What does shawshank redemption have to do with anything. Even in that movie the court had evidence which is why he was convicted. They didnt convict him on purely word of mouth.

The prosecutor got the defendant to say things that led the jury to believe he was guilty. He even said he had a gun on him the night of his wifes murder and was heading to where she was but thought it over. Unfortunately they had andy dufrain's fingerprints and tire tracks at the scene of the crime. All of these facts plus his remorseless demeanor in court led to him being convicted.Ever heard the saying "anything you say can be used against you in the court of law"

Again this movie has nothing to do with anything and doesnt prove me wrong

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
"That many" isnt concrete evidence at all and doesnt give an exact number.

What does shawshank redemption have to do with anything. Even in that movie the court had evidence which is why he was convicted. They didnt convict him on purely word of mouth.

The prosecutor got the defendant to say things that led the jury to believe he was guilty. He even said he had a gun on him the night of his wifes murder and was heading to where she was but thought it over. Unfortunately they had andy dufrain's fingerprints and tire tracks at the scene of the crime. All of these facts plus his remorseless demeanor in court led to him being convicted.Ever heard the saying "anything you say can be used against you in the court of law"

Again this movie has nothing to do with anything and doesnt prove me wrong

It is actually, because you can't cast genjutsu on 1.1 people, retard.

They convicted him on speculation, which was proven wrong.

Uh, duh, retard. They didn't have fingerprints on anything other than his steering wheel. That's exactly what you're doing, claiming something without thinking about the other side of the story. The way in which seriousness Shikaku said it proves its validity alone. Itachi can use genjutsu on at least two people at once, and presumably more. However, it also takes two people to break one out of genjutsu from the proof I've given. Disprove it with something other than denial, or be quiet.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
It is actually, because you can't cast genjutsu on 1.1 people, retard.

They convicted him on speculation, which was proven wrong.

Uh, duh, retard. They didn't have fingerprints on anything other than his steering wheel. That's exactly what you're doing, claiming something without thinking about the other side of the story. The way in which seriousness Shikaku said it proves its validity alone. Itachi can use genjutsu on at least two people at once, and presumably more. However, it also takes two people to break one out of genjutsu from the proof I've given. Disprove it with something other than denial, or be quiet.

Thats the dumbest thing i ever heard someone say "that many" equals 1.1 people lol wtf. You mean to tell me if you take a math test "that many" is a credible answer. I feel sorry for you in school if thats what you put because your grades must suck.

Actually they had his fingerprints on the bullets at the scene of the crime and a bottle of liquor he had left on the scene. Also had he been able to go to court and present the evidence that proved him innocent he would have been set free. Andy dufrain was convicted because of incriminating evidence that didnt help his case and his demeanor in court.
Not word of mouth which is my main point.

Your trying to use word of mouf. That could mean anything to make it mean what you want it to because it would be convienient for itachi in this fight. You cant do that because we literally know nothing about the jutsu itachi may or may not have. We dont know how strong,how long it takes to perform, how its performed, or how many people he can put under it. "That many" answers none of those questions.

Like i said shawshank has nothing to do with this. They had more evidence in that movie than someone saying "that many"

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Thats the dumbest thing i ever heard someone say "that many" equals 1.1 people lol wtf. You mean to tell me if you take a math test "that many" is a credible answer. I feel sorry for you in school if thats what you put because your grades must suck.

Actually they had his fingerprints on the bullets at the scene of the crime and a bottle of liquor he had left on the scene. Also had he been able to go to court and present the evidence that proved him innocent he would have been set free. Andy dufrain was convicted because of incriminating evidence that didnt help his case and his demeanor in court.
Not word of mouth which is my main point.

Your trying to use word of mouf. That could mean anything to make it mean what you want it to because it would be convienient for itachi in this fight. You cant do that because we literally know nothing about the jutsu itachi may or may not have. We dont know how strong,how long it takes to perform, how its performed, or how many people he can put under it. "That many" answers none of those questions.

Like i said shawshank has nothing to do with this. They had more evidence in that movie than someone saying "that many"

lol, stupid people often resort to bashing when they know they're wrong. Btw, I suggest you go to a hospital to get a diagnosis, because I seriously suspect that you have some kind of seriously debilitating mental condition.

http://i.imgur.com/59L12jn.jpg

Learn to read. He said that Itachi could control multiple people in multiple locations at once. That means at least two people, because he can't control half of someone, genius.

Again, learn to read or just shut up.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
lol, stupid people often resort to bashing when they know they're wrong. Btw, I suggest you go to a hospital to get a diagnosis, because I seriously suspect that you have some kind of seriously debilitating mental condition.

http://i.imgur.com/59L12jn.jpg

Learn to read. He said that Itachi could control multiple people in multiple locations at once. That means at least two people, because he can't control half of someone, genius.

Again, learn to read or just shut up.
How are you gonna say that and insult me in the same post? Kinda contradicting yourself buddy.


Like "this many" makes a big difference cmon now.

Changing "that" to "this" still doesnt answer any of the questions that were in my previous post.

"This many" is still none conclusive and doesnt give a definite answer. You cant go to court with it, nor have you seen any political debate use "this many" as an answer to any question presented to them,nor can you put it as an answer to any math question on a test unless your objective is to fail.It doesnt answer anything but instead leads to more questions.

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