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Who will win?

Arwen stomps

Originally posted by Firefly218
Arwen stomps

Originally posted by ares834


Not only its arwen an elf, and therefore physically superior, but she also has powerful magic on her side. Maybe without magic Scarlett would have a chance. Otherwise she doesn't.

Black Widow has guns...

And Arwen has absolutely no combat feats. As for magic, I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the movies, but Elrond (with a little help from Gandalf) was technically the one who summoned the flood. Not to mention, even if we do attribute it to her, her only chance is to get BW to walk into a river and hope she doesn't get shot while chanting for several seconds.

The OP states that BW has guns? I dont think so

You may be right about Elrond being behind the flood, but Arwen can still do some insane magic - like when she healed Aragorn in his dreams.

Arwen is physically superior to BW, being an elf, and we can assume had extensive h2h training.

Originally posted by ares834
Black Widow has guns...

And Arwen has absolutely no combat feats. As for magic, I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the movies, but Elrond (with a little help from Gandalf) was technically the one who summoned the flood. Not to mention, even if we do attribute it to her, her only chance is to get BW to walk into a river and hope she doesn't get shot while chanting for several seconds.
That was in the book, in the movie, it was Arwen's work.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
That was in the book, in the movie, it was Arwen's work.

I know the movies gave Arwen a more prominent role, so you may be right. I actually haven't seen LotR in a while

Originally posted by Firefly218
The OP states that BW has guns? I dont think so

Why wouldn't she? It's her typical equipment.

Originally posted by Firefly218
You may be right about Elrond being behind the flood, but Arwen can still do some insane magic - like when she healed Aragorn in his dreams.

Pretty sure nothing indicates Aragorn was healed. But sure, Arwen does have magic as she has prophetic visions. I never claimed she didn't. The problem is she never uses it in combat.

Originally posted by Firefly218
Arwen is physically superior to BW, being an elf, and we can assume had extensive h2h training.

Not really. And we certainly can't assume it's on an even level with BW who can clear a room of guards in seconds.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
That was in the book, in the movie, it was Arwen's work.

Just checked the script. It's not.

"If I can cross the river, the power of my people can protect him." She may have triggered the defense but it isn't her power.

Originally posted by ares834
Just checked the script. It's not.

"If I can cross the river, the power of my people can protect him." She may have triggered the defense but it isn't her power.

Her spell's translation is:

'Waters of the Misty Mountains
listen to the great word;
flow waters of Loudwater
against the Ringwraiths!'

So it is her spell which summoned the water to strike the Nazgul. Her previous words probably means the elf soldiers could defend them.

The OP does not state any specifications, therefore this should be h2h by default.

Arwen may not have many physical feats, but I think we can both agree that she's physically superior to BW. Elves, as a race, are immensely stronger, faster, more agile and more durable than humans. Also I find it hard to believe Elrond's daughter wasn't trained in h2h as every other elf in LotR is.

I do agree that if BW had a gun she would win.

No. We assume standard gear unless otherwise specified. Standard gear would include guns for BW.

I wouldn't say so. BW is also physically superior to most humans. Nor is every elf trained in combat, at least certainly not to the extant that BW is.

Originally posted by ares834
No. We assume standard gear unless otherwise specified. Standard gear would include guns for BW.

I wouldn't say so. BW is also physically superior to most humans. Nor is every elf trained in combat.

Arwen clearly is trained, she could outrun the Ringwraith and armed with a sword.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
Her spell's translation is:

'Waters of the Misty Mountains
listen to the great word;
flow waters of Loudwater
against the Ringwraiths!'

So it is her spell which summoned the water to strike the Nazgul. Her previous words probably means the elf soldiers could defend them.

Uh... no.

She is clearly talking about some spell placed on the river. Because you apparently missed it I'll post the quote again, "If I can cross the river, the power of my people can protect him." Here she straight up says that if she crosses the river, the elves' power will protect Frodo. And lo and behold, that's exactly what happens.

She then triggers said spell when she crosses the river.

This is why I make rules to specify the OP.

You cannot properly define "standard equipment" without OP specifications. BW has used many different weapons.

Also, at the epitome of her ability, BW has taken out low level henchmen. I think she would have trouble with someone physically superior to her.

Maybe it won't be a stomp, but i still think arwen wins.

And I'd say your opinion is entirely unfounded. BW has demonstrated extreme combat skill, Arwen on the other hand has demonstrated none.

Originally posted by ares834
And I'd say your opinion is entirely unfounded. BW has demonstrated extreme combat skill, Arwen on the other hand has demonstrated none.

You concede that this is h2h... Check
You concede that Arwen is physically superior... Check

Now your arguing that BW is more skilled?

Originally posted by Firefly218
You concede that this is h2h... Check

When did I do this?

Originally posted by Firefly218
You concede that Arwen is physically superior... Check

When did I do this?

I assumed as much when you changed the topic and didn't respond

Seems like you are making a lot of assumptions in this thread.

Such as?

Please enlighten me. I'm open to changing my mind

Originally posted by Firefly218
and we can assume had extensive h2h training.

Right here.

Beyond that you are assuming that she is physically beyond BW merely because she is an elf.

That's not assumption, that's fact. Elves are naturally superior to humans.

It doesn't make sense to me that Elronds daughter wouldn't be trained.

BTW, black widow has faced no creature as powerful as the elf. Her strongest foe so far has been hawkeye without his arrows.

Originally posted by Firefly218
That's not assumption, that's fact. Elves are naturally superior to humans.

To normal humans sure... Unfortunately, Black Widow is most certainly not normal.

Originally posted by Firefly218
It doesn't make sense to me that Elronds daughter wouldn't be trained.

Perhaps. She may be trained, heck I'd say she likely is. However, there is no reason to assume she is as well trained as BW.

Originally posted by Firefly218
BTW, black widow has faced no creature as powerful as the elf. Her strongest foe so far has been hawkeye without his arrows.

And Arwen has never faced anyone in combat.

BW is the epitome of a human in terms of ability, but is still a human ~ and therefore physically inferior to Arwen.

Arwen doesn't have to be as well trained as BW to win, she has to have basic fighting skill. Arwen has magic and physical superiority on her side. Also, if Arwen can summon the power of her people against the Nazgul, then why can't she do the same versus BW.

I understand Arwen doesn't have combat feats, but that's not my point. Your main argument has to do with black widows skill, I am attacking that argument by mentioning she hasn't fought anyone as physically capable as an elf.

Guns = dead elf.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Guns = dead elf.

I agree, with guns BW wins. This fight should be h2h

Originally posted by Firefly218
BW is the epitome of a human in terms of ability, but is still a human ~ and therefore physically inferior to Arwen.

LotR isn't like Eragon. Just because elves are generally better doesn't mean they always are. Guys like Aragorn and Boromir are certainly superior combatants than your average elf.

Originally posted by Firefly218
Arwen doesn't have to be as well trained as BW to win, she has to have basic fighting skill. Arwen has magic and physical superiority on her side. Also, if Arwen can summon the power of her people against the Nazgul, then why can't she do the same versus BW.

Because she doesn't have that specific river here. Plus it takes several seconds to use said ability.

Originally posted by Firefly218
I understand Arwen doesn't have combat feats, but that's not my point. Your main argument has to do with black widows skill, I am attacking that argument by mentioning she hasn't fought anyone as physically capable as an elf.

I'd say Hawkeye is and the Chitauri are. Regardless, that's all more or less irrelevant because she has shown her extreme level of skill.

Originally posted by Firefly218
I agree, with guns BW wins. This fight should be h2h

Than why do you keep mentioning magic?

Aragorn and Boromir can be more skilled than the average elf, but definitely not physically superior. This is simply a biological thing, humans are not biologically capable of physiological superiority over elves. BTW, Arwen is not your average elf.

I think it's a safe assumption that she has many other applications of her magic. Magic WILL definitely help her if she's fighting black widow.

BW is skilled, but not enough to overcome her physiological deficiencies in relevance to Arwen

Originally posted by Silent Master
Than why do you keep mentioning magic?

Because magic is an ability not a tangible weapon. Magic is a natural ability for Arwen, just like punching and kicking are for BW

Originally posted by Firefly218
Aragorn and Boromir can be more skilled than the average elf, but definitely not physically superior. This is simply a biological thing, humans are not biologically capable of physiological superiority over elves.

Where is this stated?

Originally posted by Firefly218
I think it's a safe assumption that she has many other applications of her magic. Magic WILL definitely help her if she's fighting black widow.

Where has she demonstrated any magic that will be helpful in a fight?

Originally posted by Firefly218
BW is skilled, but not enough to overcome her physiological deficiencies in relevance to Arwen

What "physiological deficiencies" are you taking about and where can I see them?

I'm done indulging you; it's time to prove your claims.

Originally posted by Firefly218
Because magic is an ability not a tangible weapon. Magic is a natural ability for Arwen, just like punching and kicking are for BW

You're aware that HTH stands for hand to hand, correct?

Not that it really matters, as the OP didn't state this was HTH only, which means that BW has her guns.

Elves being physically superior to humans is a common fact.

When has BW demonstrated feats against someone stronger, faster, more agile and more durable then her? I doubt she would display the same dominance.

Come back with a real argument

Arwen is way more attractive.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You're aware that HTH stands for hand to hand, correct?

Not that it really matters, as the OP didn't state this was HTH only, which means that BW has her guns.

So does h2h also mean that neither characters can use there feet?

h2h means that both characters can only use natural abilities, therefore BW can't use her guns.





Originally posted by Firefly218
You cannot properly define "standard equipment" without OP specifications. BW has used many different weapons.


^Therefore, it is automatically assumed that neither character has any equipment. Which forces this to be hth

Originally posted by Firefly218
Elves being physically superior to humans is a common fact.

Where is it stated in the movies then?

But heck, it's not even true in the books. Certain men like Turin are described as being stronger and as agile as any elf.

Originally posted by Firefly218
When has BW demonstrated feats against someone stronger, faster, more agile and more durable then her?

When has Arwen demonstrated feats at all?

Originally posted by Firefly218
Come back with a real argument

I'm still waiting for proof for your claims.

Originally posted by Firefly218
So does h2h also mean that neither characters can use there feet?

h2h means that both characters can only use natural abilities, therefore BW can't use her guns.


Hand-to-hand is a specific term, Hand-to-hand combat (sometimes abbreviated as HTH or H2H) is a lethal or nonlethal physical confrontation between two or more persons at very short range (grappling distance) that does not involve the use of firearms or other distance weapons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_to_hand_combat

Originally posted by ares834
"If I can cross the river, the power of my people can protect him." She may have triggered the defense but it isn't her power. What a stupid interpretation of that scene, lol.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What a stupid interpretation of that scene, lol.

She specifically mentions that crossing the river will protect Frodo and it's similar to what happens in the book.