Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Setting is a food court in a mall.

No PIS. Each is bloodlusted. Peak version of each canonically. (As in, no Darth Yoda)

Bonus round: Purely H2H version of the same fight.

"I'm just entirely out of Star Wars at the moment."
-Stealth Moose, Feburary 5th 2014

Your back? Anyway, I'm undecided at the moment. Bane and Yoda are comparable if Bane has his orbiskals, same goes for Revan against Mace. However, I feel the close quarters will give Revan a disadvantage, leading to the Jedi team's victory.

I'm just really really bored at work. Plus nothing else was lively around here.

I'll go for the latter two. They've got a few advantages, like having actually worked together and knowing each others styles, and they each performed well against a stronger Sith than Bane.

Not easily, what with Bane's armor, but I still bet on the latter.

Team 2. Better dueling skill, better physical feats, better Force powers.

Team 2 10/10. Revan has no feats to compete with Mace and Yoda and Bane, while more powerful than Revan, is still inferior to both Yoda and Mace.

Lol.

Assertions without evidence should be dismissed without evidence. Make your cases known here, not your opinions.

Is Bane equipped with his orbalisk armor?

Read the OP.

Some define peak versions as the strongest version of the character without some outside amplification, i.e no one would reference Dooku on Vjun if the OP said Dooku was at his strongest.

Standard gear is not the same as Nexus boosting. The location is a food court, so if you think a mall food court is a Force nexus, explain why.

The orbalisk armor could hardly be qualified as standard gear, though.

Why not? It was fused to his body for 10 years.

Because he has a lot of showings without them equipped. I'd agree with you if Exar's gauntlet was the amplifying item in question as he has very few showings without them, but Bane? No.

Its standard gear of Banes strongest version.

Bane's strongest version without gear is almost certainly in Dynasty of Evil.

Why are you adamant that he not have orbalisks?

I'm not. I was asking if it was the case.

Because then he has a chance.

Banes strongest version is ROT. This is because of his orbalisks, but such a thing is irrelevant because they are standard gear for him in that version.

I don't see a reason to hamstring him. Orbalisks were standard gear for his peak form.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Banes strongest version is ROT. This is because of his orbalisks, but such a thing is irrelevant because they are standard gear for him in that version.
Sure, but Bane appears in Rule of Two with out his orbalisk armor as well.

Regardless, we're just needlessly derailing this thread.

I'd personally pip Bane over Yoda in a fight.

If it comes down to Mace vs Revan, I think Mace has an obvious advantage with a lightsaber and Revan has an obvious advantage with the Force.

The only debatable matchup is Bane against Mace, which could go either way. Yoda would decimate Revan.

True.

I know.

Mace and Yoda excellent

Team 2 has a pretty damn obvious advantage. Both combatants are masters of all 7 styles of lightsaber combat, and both have been confirmed as amongst the best duelists ever produced by the Order, Yoda being called possibly *the* best duelist ever produced by the Order, and both have proven their skill against the greatest of the Sith. They are also both pretty monstrous with Telekinesis.

Mace doesn't compare to Revan or Bane in TK imo. And while they may be better trained and more skilled, Team 1 possess significant advantages as well. Revans Force In Balance technique put Vitiate on his ass and Banes orbalisk make him a significant challenge to either. Bane already beat a duelist whose skills rival both of team 2 after all.

Mace's TK showings are above Revan's.

Revan pelting the Imperial Strike Team with meteors says different.

Moving an 13 meter long AT-TE >

Nope.

Indeed?

Revan chucked those meteors with his offhand while fighting the four, so yeah. It was not a strained effort.

Mace also has other showings, such as obliterating droids with a Force push, crushing droids with doors, lifting multiple trees, etc. His feats seem at least marginally better to me.

I'm not familiar with the lifting multiple trees one. However, in terms of Force mastery, Revan has shown mastery of tutaminis, Force lightning, etc. In fact, Revan's showing over Nyriss is largely superior to anything Yoda or Mace have done to a Lightning user.

To be sure, Revan's mastery supersedes Mace's, but Mace's potency with TK, in my opinion, is demonstrably superior. If your conclusion is that Revan and Mace would be even as Force practitioners, then I could accept that, but I disagree that Mace is inferior.

If Revan's mastery supersecedes Mace's, I don't see how you could except them as even. Being particularly good or having more demonstrations of TK doesn't 'equate' all the other areas in which he is deficient.

There's a difference between mastery and power. Revan is more masterful in the way that he is more versatile, but Mace is more powerful in that his showings of raw power exceeds Revan's. Overall, I see them as even.

Okay, let's look at this another way:

Yoda or Dooku or even Sidious have more mastery than Skywalker (who has more raw power). Mace noted that Kar Vastor had more power than himself (bordering on Yoda's level).

In each of these cases, Force mastery has the edge if not the stomp in victory, assuming it is coupled with at least near-comparable power. Yoda and Sidious have enough mastery and sufficient power to defeat Skywalker. Dooku's Force is superior, although Skywalker's dueling bridges the gap. Kar Vastor was undone by Mace despite Mace having quite the handicap.

Now, Mace is a Jedi Master, and has been since before TPM. (His padawan, Depa, was a master before Anakin was even accepted into the Order). He is not a weakling, and Revan would not 'stomp him into nothing without any effort'. But I would not favor him over Revan for several reasons:

1. Revan isn't a pure Sith, and as such, doesn't have the same inherent weaknesses as say, Sidious.

2. Shatterpoints aren't reliable enough to constitute victory. In fact, when faced with peers or superiors who weren't Dark Side, it did not net him victory (Jedi Master Dooku, Yoda).

3. Revan's more esoteric range of powers and such is a plus. PT era Jedi seldom use anything more than precog, speed, and TK, and the saber is their primary means of dispatching foes.

4. Revan's dueling record is very solid. Defeated Yusanis, Malak twice (once while Malak was amped by the Star Forge and the collective energy of several captured Jedi Knights). Mandalore. Bandon (who had killed many Jedi according to his official bio). Nyriss. In an age when Sith numbered in the thousands and warred actively with Jedi, he was head and shoulders above them all.

5. It took the collective group of four champions of the Empire to defeat him in an epic fight: the Sith Warrior (who has a ton of dueling feats well above their station and is a master of the blade), the Sith Inquisitor (a Force prodigy with amped power), the Bounty Hunter (muggle, but a tough one despite it. Ask Neph, he has a boner for her), and the Agent. Again, during the fight, Revan chucks meteors to augment the fierce defense he's already giving the group.

It's harder to find people who have defeated Revan. Vitiate is one (A god-like being who has practiced the Dark Side for a thousand plus years and has drained countless individuals for Force power). Malak one-upped him before he had his memories reawoken, when part of his power and training was unavailable.

Let's see...

That's it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda or Dooku or even Sidious have more mastery than Skywalker (who has more raw power).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In each of these cases, Force mastery has the edge if not the stomp in victory, assuming it is coupled with at least near-comparable power. Yoda and Sidious have enough mastery and sufficient power to defeat Skywalker.
Again, there's a difference. I was referencing Revan's mastery as superior because of his versatility, whereas Yoda and Palpatine's superior mastery over Anakin not only comes from their versatility but their mastery over raw telekinetic power (which Revan doesn't have). They possess superior raw power, mastery and versatility over Anakin; Revan lacks Mace's raw power.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Revan isn't a pure Sith, and as such, doesn't have the same inherent weaknesses as say, Sidious.
Vaapad would never help Mace regardless of Revan being a pure Sith or not, so this is agreeable.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Shatterpoints aren't reliable enough to constitute victory. In fact, when faced with peers or superiors who weren't Dark Side, it did not net him victory (Jedi Master Dooku, Yoda).
Shatterpoint has never helped Mace, to my knowledge, without outside interference.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
3. Revan's more esoteric range of powers and such is a plus. PT era Jedi seldom use anything more than precog, speed, and TK, and the saber is their primary means of dispatching foes.
Revan's versatility as a Force wielder would just about never help him against Mace (I take it we are arguing Revan versus Mace). His feats with Absorption are irrelevant when Mace does not know lightning, and while Revan does know Drain (which Mace is susceptible to), he has no feats with it (and Bane, who learned the technique from Revan's holocron, pointed out that Drain was extremely hard to use in combat).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
4. Revan's dueling record is very solid. Defeated Yusanis, Malak twice (once while Malak was amped by the Star Forge and the collective energy of several captured Jedi Knights). Mandalore. Bandon (who had killed many Jedi according to his official bio). Nyriss. In an age when Sith numbered in the thousands and warred actively with Jedi, he was head and shoulders above them all.
Mace's feats are noticeably better. He has fought evenly with Tyranus, fought evenly with Bulq, driven off Ventress, fought evenly with Grievous, sparred evenly with Saesee Tiin, etc. By Attack of the Clones, he was the second best duelist in the Order, and as of Revenge of the Sith, he was among the five most skilled swordsmen at the time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
5. It took the collective group of four champions of the Empire to defeat him in an epic fight: the Sith Warrior (who has a ton of dueling feats well above their station and is a master of the blade), the Sith Inquisitor (a Force prodigy with amped power), the Bounty Hunter (muggle, but a tough one despite it. Ask Neph, he has a boner for her), and the Agent. Again, during the fight, Revan chucks meteors to augment the fierce defense he's already giving the group.
I have no idea what to say about the strike team that beat Revan; so no comment.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Indeed?

Multiple huge meteors while fighting 4 people (and after an extended battle) >>> Mace pushing a tank after concentrating and at rest. There were a lot of meteors, Revan was holding off 4 people and he'd been fighting for a while already.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace also has other showings, such as obliterating droids with a Force push, crushing droids with doors, lifting multiple trees, etc. His feats seem at least marginally better to me.

I'm unaware of the tree one or him crushing droids with doors.

Revan threw a huge stone slab extremely quickly and collapsed an archway in Revan.

Also, Revan can counter Mace's Shatterpoint with his advanced Battle Precognition.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Multiple huge meteors while fighting 4 people (and after an extended battle) >>> Mace pushing a tank after concentrating and at rest. There were a lot of meteors, Revan was holding off 4 people and he'd been fighting for a while already.
Revan weren't throwing the meteors at the same time though, was he?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan threw a huge stone slab extremely quickly and collapsed an archway in Revan.
I'm well aware of the archway, but I don't remember the stone slab. Do you have a quote=

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Revan weren't throwing the meteors at the same time though, was he?



I'm well aware of the archway, but I don't remember the stone slab. Do you have a quote=

Yeah, pretty much. Not all at the same time, but if you watch the video at around 5.50:

GUjL3O8TgRg

Its obvious he's pulling multiple ones at a time. Plus I don't believe it matters. Pulling them in succession is still an amazing feat.

"Veela and the other two survivors scrambled back into the passage near the chamber entrance, ducking out of sight around the corner to regroup. A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus.

The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust."

He threw it in an instant.

Mace and Yoda win handily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, pretty much. Not all at the same time, but if you watch the video at around 5.50:

GUjL3O8TgRg

Its obvious he's pulling multiple ones at a time. Plus I don't believe it matters. Pulling them in succession is still an amazing feat.

"Veela and the other two survivors scrambled back into the passage near the chamber entrance, ducking out of sight around the corner to regroup. A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus.

The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust."

He threw it in an instant.

I forgot about the slab, and those meteors are coming down more rapidly than I remember.

It's a nice showing, but not better than Mace's.

Yes it is.

No, it isn't. I see none bigger than an AT-TE, and metal almost certainly weighs more than whatever the meteors consists of.

Except that the tank is hollowed out to allow transport and stuff whereas the meteors are solid rock.

Also Mace was concentrating and amping himself up for a few seconds before he moved it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that the tank is hollowed out to allow transport and stuff whereas the meteors are solid rock.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Mace was concentrating and amping himself up for a few seconds before he moved it.

So, basically what you're saying is...

4x4 boulder with little difficulty >>> 13x5 tank with moderate difficulty.

I'd say so. Revan was hurling multiple meteors at very vast speeds in rapid succession while in the middle of a duel. That requires not only incredible power but control as well. Mace, by contrast, took some time and concentration to push an AT-TE off a cliff. Nothing to scoff at, surely. But it doesn't come off as nearly as impressive.

Of course, Windu's micro-series feats are on an entirely different scale than either. But that's a different discussion.

In that case, Yoda sends everyone into orbit.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So, basically what you're saying is...

4x4 boulder with little difficulty >>> 13x5 tank with moderate difficulty.



More like dozens of 6x4 boulders over a minute, 2 or 3 at a time while fending off 4 attackers and after already engaging in a lengthy duel, with little difficulty >>> 13x5 tank with moderate difficulty and charge time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
More like dozens of 6x4 boulders over a minute,
What does the speed of it have to do with the amount of power necessary to operate the feat in question?

Originally posted by Nephthys
2 or 3 at a time while fending off 4 attackers
It never looked as if multiple were thrown at the same time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and after already engaging in a lengthy duel,
Mace was hardly ''fresh'', either.

edit: read it wrong

That... was convincing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What does the speed of it have to do with the amount of power necessary to operate the feat in question?


It never looked as if multiple were thrown at the same time.


Mace was hardly ''fresh'', either.

Continuously exerting yourself is very difficult. In some ways its more difficult than doing so in a bigger way for a shorter time. Throwing a large rock is hard. Throwing 20 smaller rocks in a minute is probably even harder.

Look again.

Yes he was. He'd just climbed out of a tank. He was fully rested.

edit

Originally posted by Nephthys
Continuously exerting yourself is very difficult. In some ways its more difficult than doing so in a bigger way for a shorter time. Throwing a large rock is hard. Throwing 20 smaller rocks in a minute is probably even harder.
Sure, but Revan threw the first one as easy as he did the last one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Look again.
At what time?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes he was. He'd just climbed out of a tank. He was fully rested.
I recall that he was doing quite a lot on the battlefield.

Get 'em Intrepid.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Get 'em Intrepid.

http://imghumour.com/assets/Uploads/Cat-and-dog-fight.gif

I love that .gif.

Looks like Darth Kittius!

I just found it today and was like "THIS IS TEH BEST".

Image didn't show up. Don't know if it's my phone or what.

But I'm rooting for Intrepid because he's a teammate who usually argues for characters I favor.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Image didn't show up. Don't know if it's my phone or what.

But I'm rooting for Intrepid because he's a teammate who usually argues for characters I favor.

It's a cat with dual lightsabers, red. And it's amazing. Check it on your home PC later.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I just found it today and was like "THIS IS TEH BEST".

Do you like kitties, Janus?

This is not a euphemism for vagina.















It totally is.

Cat > dog is now official.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Do you like kitties, Janus?

This is not a euphemism for vagina.















It totally is.

Yes to both.

Team 1 can win:

Bane holds Yoda while Revan defeats Mace. Then Revan and Bane gang-up on Yoda and destroy him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace doesn't compare to Revan or Bane in TK imo. And while they may be better trained and more skilled, Team 1 possess significant advantages as well. Revans Force In Balance technique put Vitiate on his ass and Banes orbalisk make him a significant challenge to either. Bane already beat a duelist whose skills rival both of team 2 after all. who did bane beat whose skills rivaled mace or Yoda?

Bane never beat anyone on raw skill alone except possibly Lsu, but I can't remember.

Originally posted by Raptor22
who did bane beat whose skills rivaled mace or Yoda?

Kas'im.

lol

Originally posted by Raptor22
who did bane beat whose skills rivaled mace or Yoda?

Loaded question, with the unproven implication that Mace and Yoda have beaten people as powerful as Revan/Bane.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

Bane did beat Kas'im and Kas'ims skills as a duelist certainly rival Mace and Yoda's.

Holistically, I could see Revan taking Mace with difficulty, but Yoda tips the scale.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane did beat Kas'im and Kas'ims skills as a duelist certainly rival Mace and Yoda's.
Based on what?

His...... skill?

I always thought that Kas'im's skill was rivaling Cin Drallig.

Based on what does his skill rival Mace's and Yoda's?

The fact that he completely mastered every form and lightsaber type then spent decades on top of that refining every aspect of lightsaber combat.

Spending a lot of time mastering forms hardly insinuates significant skill.

Regardless, your analogy fails. Bane was only even with Zannah, and Zannah definitely does not rival Mace or Yoda in skill.

I would say perfecting every aspect of all the lightsaber forms insinuates significant skill. Not to mention that in this case, time does insinuate that. Kas'im mastered all the forms in mere 'years.' If he can achieve such a level of skill in that level of time, then several decades worth of refinement certainly implies significant skill.

Why doesn't she?

You honestly believe Zannah rivals Yoda? Like, seriously?

You did make the assertion first that she was inferior. He's asking you to prove up.

The only means by which to gauge Zannah's skill is from her duel with Bane. That she does well against him is reason enough for me to think that she would do well against Yoda.

What makes you think she can't rival him?

I did?

"Zannah definitely does not rival Mace or Yoda in skill."

Originally posted by Nephthys
The only means by which to gauge Zannah's skill is from her duel with Bane. That she does well against him is reason enough for me to think that she would do well against Yoda.

What makes you think she can't rival him?
Don't be ridiculous. Bane's skill feats are as limited as to holding an edge against Kas'im, whose only strong point was technical mastery. Cin Drallig, as a battlemaster, would have to have mastered all forms as well, yet he was easily beaten by Anakin.

Also, you reply pretty fast.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Cin Drallig, as a battlemaster, would have to have mastered all forms as well, yet he was easily beaten by Anakin.

Not necessarily.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Not necessarily.

Extensive knowledge of something implies mastery, but doesn't necessarily imply innate talent. Skywalker's innate talent was far superior to Cin Drallig, despite having a fraction of the training time. This isn't an argument against multiple form masters so much as an admission that sometimes natural talent can augment or surpass rote training.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane did beat Kas'im and Kas'ims skills as a duelist certainly rival Mace and Yoda's. in ur opinion is bane from book 2 and 3 head and shoulders above mace and yoda skill wise? I don't want to put words in ur mouth but I think you'd agree that at the end of Pod banes skill was superior to kasims in every aspect but duel wielding. I think that you'd also agree that banes skills increased between book 1 and 3. So if kasim as of Pod was a rival to mace and Yoda skill wise and he was below Pod bane who is less skilled than RoT bane, wouldn't DoE bane be far more skilled than mace and Yoda?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Loaded question, with the unproven implication that Mace and Yoda have beaten people as powerful as Revan/Bane. neph said bane has beaten someone whose skills rivaled mace and I responded with asking him who he's referring to. How is that loaded or implying anything other than me wanting to know who he was referring to?

Originally posted by Raptor22
neph said bane has beaten someone whose skills rivaled mace and I responded with asking him who he's referring to. How is that loaded or implying anything other than me wanting to know who he was referring to?

I already pointed this out; your question implied without proof that Mace and Yoda were on a higher tier than anyone Bane had fought. Any time you make assertions, you bear the burden of proof. Any time you ask someone else to prove a case against a baseless assertion, you've basically admitted you don't have a case yourself.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I already pointed this out; your question implied without proof that Mace and Yoda were on a higher tier than anyone Bane had fought. Any time you make assertions, you bear the burden of proof. Any time you ask someone else to prove a case against a baseless assertion, you've basically admitted you don't have a case yourself.

Er... no... Neph claimed that Bane has beaten people whose skills rival Mace/Yoda's. Raptor was justified in asking who. It wasn't a loaded question; it was an entirely fair one.

Revan needs a better partner.

I'm sure Bastila services him quite well.

mmm

I'm sure his lightsaber is regularly activated, if ya know what I mean...

Originally posted by ares834
Revan needs a better partner.



What do you mean? bane > Revan.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I already pointed this out; your question implied without proof that Mace and Yoda were on a higher tier than anyone Bane had fought. Any time you make assertions, you bear the burden of proof. Any time you ask someone else to prove a case against a baseless assertion, you've basically admitted you don't have a case yourself. I simply was wondering who he was thinking of when he made the claim so i could avoid arguing against someone he wasnt talking about., he could have been referring to kasim, raskata amped with battle meditation, or possibly zannah. i just wanted to be sure. Anything other than that is simply imaginary on ur part.

Kas'im, BM Raskta, BM Farfalla and Zannah are comparable to Mace and Yoda.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Kas'im, BM Raskta, BM Farfalla and Zannah are comparable to Mace and Yoda.



Lol

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lol

How?

Kas'im easily rivals them as a swordsman and has an amazing Force Shield to boot, Raskta Lsu also rivals them as a swordsman even without the BM, Farfall was one of the more notable Jedi Masters of the time and was having his powers considerably increased via the BM, and Zannah has demonstrated some of the deadliest darkside abilities ever in combat and had incredible potential.

I would have added BM Sarro to the list as well but Bane never interacted with him.

Obvious troll is obvious.

How was I laughing?

Kas'm rivals them in terms of technical skill perhaps, but what has he done to suggest he rivals them as combatants, you know, like putting those skills in use during combat with a mixture of speed and force ability? If having an amazing force shield on a dark side nexus is the pinnacle of his force abilities, I don't see how he rivals Yoda.

As for the others, you haven't proved anything really.

Really I don't feel like listing Mace's and Yoda's feats and accomplishments.

Maybe a better way to resolve this would be to suggest where these goalposts are, instead of simply reasserting that the opposition isn't meeting them.

I would go in further detail, but both Yoda and Mace have such a long list of feats/accolades/accomplishments to their names, which I'm pretty sure most are aware of. And simply having deadly skills and powers, doesn't suggest they rival the likes of Yoda and Mace.

I need more.

Sorry for the multiple posts but I'm too lazy to edit.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I would go in further detail, but both Yoda and Mace have such a long list of feats/accolades/accomplishments to their names, which I'm pretty sure most are aware of. And simply having deadly skills and powers, doesn't suggest they rival the likes of Yoda and Mace.

But that's the whole point - unless you're directly comparing instances of say, dueling ability, or relative power, or even force applied via TK, you can't compare them at all. Simply saying "Mace/Yoda have a ton of feats, and I don't want to list them, but their dominance is evident" isn't debating your case; it's basically asking your opponent to disprove an argument you haven't put any effort into, and dodging the burden of proof.

I'm not saying Mace/Yoda aren't potentially superior; they may be. But there's this native stance that "they are the best in the PT era; therefore, they must be innately better than anyone else in all other eras unless I receive some extraordinary proof which I may or may not interpret as valid".

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How was I laughing?

Kas'm rivals them in terms of technical skill perhaps, but what has he done to suggest he rivals them as combatants, you know, like putting those skills in use during combat with a mixture of speed and force ability? If having an amazing force shield on a dark side nexus is the pinnacle of his force abilities, I don't see how he rivals Yoda.

As for the others, you haven't proved anything really.

Technical skill is for one, very important. A technically superior swordsman can defeat a stronger force user in a lightsaber combat, and Kas'im should have a clear technical edge over Mace and Yoda.

Two, in his fight against Bane, he was so fast that he was said to wield his two sabers as if he had six of them, and his speed is only ever praised throughout the novel, as is his deadliness and effectiveness as a warrior.

Three, Bane's attack was also boosted by the nexus (probably moreso given it was an attack), and had also the added advantage of being charged up while they were talking, and PoD Bane easily rivals Yoda as a Force User (and is solidly above Mace). It's also reflective of Kas'im being a generally powerful Force User, which would indicate that he has more to offer than simply technical mastery in lightsaber combat.

Kas'im imo rivals Mace Windu as a Force User and is firmly beyond both Mace and Yoda as a swordsman.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Technical skill is for one, very important. A technically superior swordsman can defeat a stronger force user in a lightsaber combat, and Kas'im should have a clear technical edge over Mace and Yoda.

Two, in his fight against Bane, he was so fast that he was said to wield his two sabers as if he had six of them, and his speed is only ever praised throughout the novel, as is his deadliness and effectiveness as a warrior.

Three, Bane's attack was also boosted by the nexus (probably moreso given it was an attack), and had also the added advantage of being charged up while they were talking, and PoD Bane easily rivals Yoda as a Force User (and is solidly above Mace). It's also reflective of Kas'im being a generally powerful Force User, which would indicate that he has more to offer than simply technical mastery in lightsaber combat.

Kas'im imo rivals Mace Windu as a Force User and is firmly beyond both Mace and Yoda as a swordsman.

What about the others you brought up?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But that's the whole point - unless you're directly comparing instances of say, dueling ability, or relative power, or even force applied via TK, you can't compare them at all. Simply saying "Mace/Yoda have a ton of feats, and I don't want to list them, but their dominance is evident" isn't debating your case; it's basically asking your opponent to disprove an argument you haven't put any effort into, and dodging the burden of proof.

I'm not saying Mace/Yoda aren't potentially superior; they may be. But there's this native stance that "they are the best in the PT era; therefore, they must be innately better than anyone else in all other eras unless I receive some extraordinary proof which I may or may not interpret as valid".

Well I'm under the impression that most everyone knows of Mace's and Yoda's abilities and the context of how they apply they in combat. See, I've only really read the first Bane novel, and only a few excerpts from the others.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well I'm under the impression that most everyone knows of Mace's and Yoda's abilities and the context of how they apply they in combat. See, I've only really read the first Bane novel, and only a few excerpts from the others.

Arguments submitted without proof can be dismissed without proof. I'm not omitting Astor from proving up either. Both of you if you intend to debate should muscle up some evidence. Nothing is simply 'evident' unless you're debating Superman versus Stephen Hawkings or the Hulk versus a gerbil in a speed bag.

I believe Yoda was referenced as one of the most skilled swordsman in jedi history, so I don't see how Kas'im as an edge on him in terms of skill. Not to mention Yoda is a power house and can apply his skill with enough speed to match Sidious blade to blade.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Arguments submitted without proof can be dismissed without proof. I'm not omitting Astor from proving up either. Both of you if you intend to debate should muscle up some evidence. Nothing is simply 'evident' unless you're debating Superman versus Stephen Hawkings or the Hulk versus a gerbil in a speed bag.


I can't make an argument unless I have more to go on, and so far I don't.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I can't make an argument unless I have more to go on, and so far I don't.

I've admonished you on this multiple times now; either you have a stance that you can provide instances of, or you don't have an argument. You can't just let everyone else educate you in your ignorance and then go "LOLNOPE". That's not fair debating.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What about the others you brought up?

Raskta Lsu had been the greatest swordsmen of the Army of Light and had more Sith kills to her name than anybody else at the time, and was receiving the benefits of Battle Meditation that was described as literally doubling her powers. In her battle with Bane her speed is so great that she's described as seemingly attacking him from in front of him, behind him, and from both sides, all at the same time. I'll try and get the quotes later.

Farfalla likewise was one of the more notable Jedi masters of the era and also having his powers being amped to incredible levels. He was by no means simply a swordsman, being the primary Force offensive of his team, and yet his lightsaber skills are described as being nearly perfect.

It's worth noting that the Jedi of the NSW were the most martial order of Jedi ever, and the Army of Light was that era of Jedi at their absolute pinnacle.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Raskta Lsu had been the greatest swordsmen of the Army of Light and had more Sith kills to her name than anybody else at the time, and was receiving the benefits of Battle Meditation that was described as literally doubling her powers. In her battle with Bane her speed is so great that she's described as seemingly attacking him from in front of him, behind him, and from both sides, all at the same time. I'll try and get the quotes later.

Farfalla likewise was one of the more notable Jedi masters of the era and also having his powers being amped to incredible levels. He was by no means simply a swordsman, being the primary Force offensive of his team, and yet his lightsaber skills are described as being nearly perfect.

It's worth noting that the Jedi of the NSW were the most martial order of Jedi ever, and the Army of Light was that era of Jedi at their absolute pinnacle.



Some direct proof would do you good. Otherwise, this amounts to little more than curiosity.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It's worth noting that the Jedi of the NSW were the most martial order of Jedi ever, and the Army of Light was that era of Jedi at their absolute pinnacle.

I'd still put the Swtor era above them personally.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I've admonished you on this multiple times now; either you have a stance that you can provide instances of, or you don't have an argument. You can't just let everyone else educate you in your ignorance and then go "LOLNOPE". That's not fair debating.


Who said I was trying to debate? I put "Lol." And that was more towards Kasim being comparable to Yoda (sorry for not clarifying). Not only does Yoda have comparable skill, but he has displayed more raw force power and mastery, which is how Kasim was losing to a less skilled individual.

BTW, there was a time about a few months back when someone said Yoda was better than Kun, and your response was "lolno." You have a habit of accusing others of the same stuff you do. Why is that?

If anyone is going to be putting anything in anyone's mouth, it will be me and my penis.

http://www.awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/just-saying.gif

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What can you prove?


Actually Yoda was said to be "perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi order has ever seen."


"To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen." -Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

Again, why should I believe Kasim has an advantage in skill? Do I not have a right to question it?

I think the gap in Force ability between Yoda and Kas'im is closer than the gap in skill personally. Bane's attack on Kas'im is on par with anything we've seen from Yoda in proper canon imo, and Kas'im defended against it (and lightsaber combat being his clear specialty, his speed and reflexes etc in combat is likely where his Force ability is at its best). On the other hand, Kas'im is described as literally mastering every form (all 7, Jar'kai, doublebladed) in half the time it would take the average Jedi to master one, and then spent decades further developing his skills, and literally practiced on a day to day basis. Yoda by comparison is never confirmed to be a high level master of every form, and we know that he rarely kept up with his skills from numerous sources (Power of the Jedi for example states that nobody had even seen him use a lightsaber for years, circa TPM).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually Yoda was said to be "perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi order has ever seen."


"To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen." -Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

Again, why should I believe Kasim has an advantage in skill? Do I not have a right to question it?

We don't know that is a reference to skill alone, or simply overall ability. Kas'im has direct accolades for his skills.

Why is this argument about Kas'im still going on?

lol. Intrepid is a troll haha.

Also to weigh in, I do think that you're being unfair Moose. Everyone here does know all about how skilled Yoda is. Sidious 66 shouldn't have to prove what we already know to be true. Asking him to is just being pedantic.

Can you please weigh in about my penis and mouths?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd still put the Swtor era above them personally.

Don't really see it bud.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Don't really see it bud.

Millions of members, rediscovered knowledge of the first Jedi, highly militaristic and well trained, the greatest number of skilled combatants of any era known (I counted), Hero of Tython and Barsen'thor shit on any Bane-era Jedi, titled 'The Jedi Renaissance.'

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also to weigh in, I do think that you're being unfair Moose. Everyone here does know all about how skilled Yoda is. Sidious 66 shouldn't have to prove what we already know to be true. Asking him to is just being pedantic.

Everyone knows about Kas'im as well. It's a lot easier to make vague references to what people remember about Yoda/the current status quo than actually presenting the argument and applying it directly to this thread, and it is entirely fair for Moose to call him out on that $h1t. There's a lot of PT bias going on and we should attempt to root it out without compromise.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Everyone knows about Kas'im as well. It's a lot easier to make vague references to what people remember about Yoda/the current status quo than actually presenting the argument and applying it directly to this thread, and it is entirely fair for Moose to call him out on that $h1t. There's a lot of PT bias going on and we should attempt to root it out without compromise.

No, provide some exact proof please. None of this "it's evident" shit on either side. Scans, sources, page numbers, etc. Anything else is just "IMO debating", and I'll call you both on it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also to weigh in, I do think that you're being unfair Moose. Everyone here does know all about how skilled Yoda is. Sidious 66 shouldn't have to prove what we already know to be true. Asking him to is just being pedantic.

I disagree. The idea that Yoda is better until proven false is a fallacy (argument from ignorance).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're putting words in my mouth.






He made a claim without backing it up, which was that Kas'im has an edge in skill. Sorry for not taking his word for granted.

If you have more to provide on the subject, then do so.






Right. So if someone claims another person is comparable, then it's there burden to prove, especially if the characters are not as well known.

Mace and Yoda have far more exposure, so it would be easier if the person arguing for the characters with less exposure to start first.

In the meantime, stop putting words in my mouth.

Calm down.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually Yoda was said to be "perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi order has ever seen."


"To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen." -Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

Again, why should I believe Kasim has an advantage in skill? Do I not have a right to question it?

This is from an Insider article from 2002.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Millions of members, rediscovered knowledge of the first Jedi, highly militaristic and well trained, the greatest number of skilled combatants of any era known (I counted), Hero of Tython and Barsen'thor shit on any Bane-era Jedi, titled 'The Jedi Renaissance.'

I think the key difference is the length of both conflicts. The ToR Jedi had become accustomed to a period of relative peace, and taken completely by surprise by the Sith invasion, with about a few decades since to adjust to it. The NSW by comparison lasted for over a thousand years, and have seen approximately hundreds of generations of Jedi. The NSW would have presumably impacted the first generation of Jedi in a similar way that the war impacted the ToR Jedi. However, fast forward a few generations, and they would have began to made adjustments to Jedi training, their philosophy, expectations etc. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to fine tune their practises as they continue to learn from war and mistakes they may have made. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to perfect their practises in the face of war. Now fast forward hundreds of generations and you have the Army of Light, a time where peace has literally become a myth for the galaxy and the Jedi have lived for hundreds of years as a finely tuned machine of war. The ToR Jedi by comparison are still stuck in that first generation of Jedi that have just started learning how to wage war.

They're really not comparable.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
We don't know that is a reference to skill alone, or simply overall ability. Kas'im has direct accolades for his skills.

The source itself is emphasizing how all seven forms play out in combat and how to understand the "combat moves" of Yoda, then goes on to state that Yoda was perhaps the greatest lightsaber master of all time. Obviously it's a testament to Yoda's skill, which is a better accolade than Kas'im's.

As far as the force goes, Yoda was equal to Sidious with respect to force speed, who has far greater speed feats than Bane at the time of his fight with Kas'im (better than Bane anytime for that matter, as far as I know), which is how Bane was winning in the first place. I don't see how Kas'im stands a chance against one who not only rivals him in sheer technical skill, but also has greater use of force speed, if he couldn't even win against an opponent who only had greater speed (well up until he switched to a style Bane was unfamiliar with).

TK, Yoda has sent Sidious flying several feet--the sith lord who easily held both maul and Savage at bay. Savage himself has, in a state of rage, simutaneously overpowered both Dooku and Ventress (who in a similar state of rage overpowered Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time) with the force, and went on to do the same to Obi Wan and Anakin. He's also easily busted out of a jail cell with a mere force push. Maul has collapsed cave ceilings, destroyed a tunnel, force hurled a star ship, and consistently ragdolled Obi Wan with the force. And Yet Sidious can easily break through the defenses and directly overpower both Maul and Savage at the same time with TK, while OFF a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, provide some exact proof please. None of this "it's evident" shit on either side. Scans, sources, page numbers, etc. Anything else is just "IMO debating", and I'll call you both on it.

Haha.

Listen, I get what you're trying to do and respect that. However you miss my point, I am not saying that an argument does not need to be made for Kas'im because everyone knows about him already, but simply pointing out that if Sidious 66 wants to try that approach with Yoda, the same line of logic mostly applies with Kas'im.

I think to a certain level, scans, page numbers etc aren't completely necessary, though they may become necessary depending on the parties involved.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Calm down.


I'm calm. Just saying.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is from an Insider article from 2002.


So we disregard it?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm calm. Just saying.






So we disregard it?

No, we consider it in context. For someone who said twice I was putting words in their mouth, you find it okay to do the same to me, bro.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Haha.

Listen, I get what you're trying to do and respect that. However you miss my point, I am not saying that an argument does not need to be made for Kas'im because everyone knows about him already, but simply pointing out that if Sidious 66 wants to try that approach with Yoda, the same line of logic mostly applies with Kas'im.

I think to a certain level, scans, page numbers etc aren't completely necessary, though they may become necessary depending on the parties involved.

I'm just being tough on both sides so I can't be arbitrarily accused of favoritism. This is my thread creation after all; trying to make sure it comes of some decent debating and not just "IMO I THINK ITS EVIDENT" stuff.

I know for my part, to be convinced that either is comparable, we need to you know... compare them. And that means using the evidence, not our gut feelings.

I didn't put words in your mouth, SM, I asked a question.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I think the key difference is the length of both conflicts. The ToR Jedi had become accustomed to a period of relative peace, and taken completely by surprise by the Sith invasion, with about a few decades since to adjust to it. The NSW by comparison lasted for over a thousand years, and have seen approximately hundreds of generations of Jedi. The NSW would have presumably impacted the first generation of Jedi in a similar way that the war impacted the ToR Jedi. However, fast forward a few generations, and they would have began to made adjustments to Jedi training, their philosophy, expectations etc. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to fine tune their practises as they continue to learn from war and mistakes they may have made. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to perfect their practises in the face of war. Now fast forward hundreds of generations and you have the Army of Light, a time where peace has literally become a myth for the galaxy and the Jedi have lived for hundreds of years as a finely tuned machine of war. The ToR Jedi by comparison are still stuck in that first generation of Jedi that have just started learning how to wage war.

They're really not comparable.

That's all entirely speculative. There's absolutely no proof that this is the case. Whereas there is a ton of actual facts supporting the Swtor eras quality.

Its just as likely that generations of warfare caused a great amount of harm to the capabilities of the Jedi. Great Masters cut down before being able to pass on their knowledge, holocrons and lore lost in Sith attacks, inability to replace the losses with fresh and able Jedi, an order whittled and ground down to its meanest form. We've seen this occur in all other wars in Star Wars. The huge losses of knowledge from the destruction of Ossus, the Sack of Coruscant, the Jedi Purges etc. The way the Kotor and PT era Jedi became disillusioned and fractured and their had their will weaken through their wars. We can see this in the Brotherhood as well, they had lost their way and ignored the knowledge of the past. And it also just makes sense that an extremely long, costly war would diminish your armed forces, not sharpen them. That's how it works in the real world at least.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Everyone knows about Kas'im as well.

Not really. Kas'im is a fairly minor character. Yoda is one of the major characters both in the mythos and on this forum. There have been hundreds of debates featuring him.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I disagree. The idea that Yoda is better until proven false is a fallacy (argument from ignorance).

Yoda is a known quantity. When you bet on a race, you bet on the horse you know is fast.

BTW, SM, I'm not responding to your posts until you change your avatar. I don't like the way it's looking at me.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The source itself is emphasizing how all seven forms play out in combat and how to understand the "combat moves" of Yoda, then goes on to state that Yoda was perhaps the greatest lightsaber master of all time. Obviously it's a testament to Yoda's skill, which is a better accolade than Kas'im's.

Yoda's overall ability is reliant on both his Force prowess and lightsaber skill, and thus it makes sense that lightsaber technique would give good insight into his ability. It makes perfect sense for it to be a reference to his overall ability, and for it to say that the seven forms of combat would give you a clue of how to understand what makes him great.

And for the record, Kas'im basically gets the same accolade in PoD when he is referred to as the best living swordsman, and possibly the best ever. The difference is, Kas'im isn't simply reliant on potential hyperbole but his skill has also been substantiated with hard facts and figures.



Not true. Bane actually blitzed Sirak while he was prepared in the heat of battle, and Sirak was someone who's connection to the Force was arguably the greatest in the entire BoD with the exception of Bane, given that he was mistakenly believed by some to be the Sith'ari. The Jedi that Sidious blitzed were not known for being remarkably powerful, and had not yet sunk into a battle like state of mind as Sirak had in his fight with Bane.

Bane also was an absolute lightsaber prodigy, and had learnt how to counter every single one of Kas'im's moves from their many hours of sparring together.



Yawn. None of that compares to Bane's attack on Kas'im and the majority of those TK attacks that you reference are often the product of a surprise manoeuvre so we can't say that they were being properly defended in each of the instances. Plus a lot of that is from that stupid cartoon with its unrealistic portrayals of the characters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's all entirely speculative. There's absolutely no proof that this is the case. Whereas there is a ton of actual facts supporting the Swtor eras quality.

This is all speculation bro. You can't definitely prove anything. The best we can do is apply reason to find out what is more probable, and it is simply more likely that war that lasts hundreds of generations would have a greater impact than one that lasted a mere few decades.



Such a thing as survival of the fittest and the will of the Force, bro. War serves its purpose in separating the weak from the strong, and the will of the Force itself seems to favour those with stronger connections to the Force with greater destinies.

Regarding knowledge, Jedi combat favours the more basic techniques for the most part, which is why we rarely see much more than telekinesis being useful in combat, so lost knowledge probably wouldn't be that big of a deal, and the stuff that was truly beneficial to combat would likely be being taught to the entire order (or the more advanced staff just to the masters) rather than being kept hidden away in storage, so it's likely the most beneficial pieces of knowledge would have remained simply via widespread tutelage of the techniques.

It simply makes more sense that the NSW Jedi would have been molded into a collective force that was more suited for Jedi vs Sith warfare than the ToR Jedi, and that their superior training and way of thinking, when combined with their battle experience and survivale of the fittest/will of the Force, would have made them the most effective fighters the Jedi had ever known.



Anyone who matters.*

Not to mention Yoda himself is well known but not all of the obscure feats or descriptions are, which is largely what Sidious 66 is referring to.