The pool room brawl

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tkitna
Not sure if this was done before, but what side do you think wins if a brawl does break out?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Ash_ED/343878650_n_zps98c6e4bc.jpg~original

DC seems stacked to me and would win for sure, but there's been some dissension towards that opinion and just wondering what everybody else thought.

DarkSaint85
Team Dc wins. More muscle in their corner.

Cap vs Batman
Superman vs Thor
WW vs Rogue
Iron Man vs GL
Manhunter vs Hulk
Aquaman vs Wolverine?
Flash vs Spiderman
Power Girl vs....Black Widow?

The even matchups are so even, they will be stalemating for a time (Cap/Bats, Thor/Supes, maybe even MM/Hulk if he doesn't job). Others are horrific stomps (Flash/Spidey, Widow/PG, GL/IM) that they can then go help the other DC members (WW/Aquaman etc).

Hell, Flash could take out Widow, Spidey, Wolverine and Cap on his lonesome. Maybe even Iron Man. Leaving the others to dogpile Hulk, Thor and Rogue.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by tkitna
Not sure if this was done before, but what side do you think wins if a brawl does break out?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Ash_ED/343878650_n_zps98c6e4bc.jpg~original

DC seems stacked to me and would win for sure, but there's been some dissension towards that opinion and just wondering what everybody else thought.



mmm

Depends on how badly they want to fight and whether this is a first time encounter or if they just "know" of each other from reputation.

Based on how he's been acting recently, any sign of serious trouble has Thor transferring the whole group to Rigel 7 if talking doesn't work, probably under the direction of Captain America.

Unfortunately, that's a relatively deserted, light gravity planet in a red sun system.
The red sun environment more or less negates the power of Superman and Power Woman (or whatever Karen Starr's calling herself now in the DCnU).
Black Widow can take them out if she has nothing else to do.
Otherwise, Spider-Man simply webs up Superman, not expecting it to hold Supes, just be a distraction, but find that it does, indeed hold him.
He thinks to himself,
"Man, is this guy overrated!
What in the world has he got everyone so afraid of?"

Flash starts running, intent on blitzing his opponents.
Unfortunately, Rigel 7 is, again, a light gravity planet.
He bounds around like he's on a trampoline and can't correct for the unexpected
"lift" each step gives him before Wolverine lays him flat with a single adamantium punch.

Wolverine then starts to go after J'onnz.
"You look green and menacing, tough guy.
You in the Hulk's League, or what?
Let's find out ..."


At this point the fight can go several ways.
J'onnz has enough power and ability to turn the fight around and so does Wonder Woman. I'm unsure of what would happen with Rogue.
If she kisses Wonder Woman, the DC team is going to have a hard time of winning. If she were able to get the powerset of J'onnz, Rogue would theoretically have enough to tip the scales completely in Marvel's favor.
Unfortunately, though, she'd be overloaded by the sudden influx of simultaneous thoughts and J'onnz own psychic backlash.

Batman's debating whether it'd be wisest to go after Cap as the leader of the group first,
Black Widow as the weakest, or melt in the shadows biding his time to strike ...

DarkSaint85
Knowing of each other by reputation means another way of fighting, however. And the DC team are better at coordinating an attack, with Batman's strategy and MMs telepathic mind link (like how they usually fight).

When that happens, and they know who's who, WW mind controls Hulk to beat the hell out of Thor. Flash mops everyone else up.....

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Knowing of each other by reputation means another way of fighting, however.
And the DC team are better at coordinating an attack, with Batman's strategy and MMs telepathic mind link (like how they usually fight).

When that happens, and they know who's who, WW mind controls Hulk to beat the hell out of Thor.
Flash mops everyone else up.....


mad

Hey, hold it, cheater!
Since when does Wonder Woman get mind-control powers?


That is so ---! So --!

I --!

...

Ah ...
skip it.


We'll go with your little scenario.


It's not like Thor isn't used to Hulk turning on his group in battle by now.

I'm hip:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At Hulk's customary
"Raarrrggh!!!!",

Thor's response is
" *sigh* ... Verily, this time we went for 3 months before yon beast switched on us again ... "
("Voices in Hulk's mind!"wink
and Thor proceeds to cover his ears,
("But Hulk will get voices OUT of Hulk's mind!!"wink
even as the rest of the Marvels cover their ears.

The DC group, however, not knowing Hulk's habits, are unprepared for the devastating Thunderclap which immediately follows.
Superman, Power Woman, and Flash and Batman now lay insensible.
J'onnz is not quite there; his physiology is more pliant and he caught the stray thought from Hulk just before Hulk completed that action.
Diana is not quite out, but she is dazed.
Hulk is dazed, too -- the clap snapped Wonder Woman's control
(and/or J'onnz's, depending on which one you actually meant)
and also made enough noise to wake him up!

Hulk now looks angrily at Green Lantern:
"Hulk's ears hurt now Ring Man. You use ... loudphone?
Is that what you point at Hulk?
Do you make more noise now to bother Hulk ... ?" ...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mad

Hey, hold it, cheater!
Since when does Wonder Woman get mind-control powers?


That is so ---! So --!

I --!

...

Ah ...
skip it.


We'll go with your little scenario.


It's not like Thor isn't used to Hulk turning on his group in battle by now.

I'm hip:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At Hulk's customary
"Raarrrggh!!!!",

Thor's response is
" *sigh* ... Verily, this time we went for 3 months before yon beast switched on us again ... "
("Voices in Hulk's mind!"wink
and Thor proceeds to cover his ears,
("But Hulk will get voices OUT of Hulk's mind!!"wink
even as the rest of the Marvels cover their ears.

The DC group, however, not knowing Hulk's habits, are unprepared for the devastating Thunderclap which immediately follows.
Superman, Power Woman, and Flash and Batman now lay insensible.
J'onnz is not quite there; his physiology is more pliant and he caught the stray thought from Hulk just before Hulk completed that action.
Diana is not quite out, but she is dazed.
Hulk is dazed, too -- the clap snapped Wonder Woman's control
(and/or J'onnz's, depending on which one you actually meant)
and also made enough noise to wake him up!

Hulk now looks angrily at Green Lantern:
"Hulk's ears hurt now Ring Man. You use ... loudphone?
Is that what you point at Hulk?
Do you make more noise now to bother Hulk ... ?" ...

With her lasso, anyone wrapped in it is compelled to obey her commands. It's not telepathic, its mystical. You can't resist it, really.

Why wouldn't the DC team know about Hulk's habits, anyway? I thought you said they knew about each other?

But this shows really well how a fight would go. The Marvel team wouldn't know what the DC team can do, even though they had 'basic' knowledge. But the DC team know and can share info at the speed of thought.

8swords
depends whether thor can beat supes fast enough to help the others

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
depends whether thor can beat supes fast enough to help the others

True...

Though arguably, I'd have PG thrashing Widow, and Flash thrashing Spidey/Wolverine, so Bats/PG/Aquaman can help WW, then Bats/PG/WW/Aquaman could help Superman.....

Then it all snowballs horribly from there.

Mindship
Batman knew it would happen. He was prepped. 'Nuff said.

8swords
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True...

Though arguably, I'd have PG thrashing Widow, and Flash thrashing Spidey/Wolverine, so Bats/PG/Aquaman can help WW, then Bats/PG/WW/Aquaman could help Superman.....

Then it all snowballs horribly from there.


flash thrashing spidey/wolverine? your talking as if they haven't had any experience against speedsters, and its pretty unlikely for flash to go lightspeed at the get go,

as for MM, hmm , most of the bar fights I've seen includes fire? laughing out loud

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
flash thrashing spidey/wolverine? your talking as if they haven't had any experience against speedsters, and its pretty unlikely for flash to go lightspeed at the get go,

as for MM, hmm , most of the bar fights I've seen includes fire? laughing out loud

Lol none of the speedsters they've faced are on Flash's level.

Though some clarification may be needed. Is it SpOck?

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p498/SwashbucklerLimey/SpideySpeed_zpsccfef289.png

And SpOck thinks he's faster than Wolverine:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11/113883/2814487-avengingsm_16_thegroup_015.jpg

iceman24567
DC is stacked they should win everytime

8swords
^ I know NONE of the speedsters that they faced are near flash's full level, but on an average they do, and as i said before unless flash gets to full light speed at the get go. hes not beating them easily.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
^ I know NONE of the speedsters that they faced are near flash's full level, but on an average they do, and as i said before unless flash gets to full light speed at the get go. hes not beating them easily.

Speed Demon was taking SpOck apart, though. And he wasn't doing anywhere near lightspeed. SpOck had to flee the fight.....

Great durability showing from Spidey, to be sure. But Speed Demon has nowhere near the abilities of Flash. What if he stole everyone's speed?

8swords
hmmm never mind what I said, I just saw that, basing on the picture, its pre52, DC team wins this, stomp even.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
hmmm never mind what I said, I just saw that, basing on the picture, its pre52, DC team wins this, stomp even.

Yah, they don't have stupid collars lol.

Also means Aquaman doesn't have some of his better showings strength wise, or his trident, but he still has his impressive telepathy showings.

Epicurus
Team DC easily wins.

@blue: Nope, Rogue is not turning the tide in favor of team Marvel even if she somehow manages to absorb J'onn's powers.

8swords
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Speed Demon was taking SpOck apart, though. And he wasn't doing anywhere near lightspeed. SpOck had to flee the fight.....

Great durability showing from Spidey, to be sure. But Speed Demon has nowhere near the abilities of Flash. What if he stole everyone's speed?


because unlike peter, spock does not have the will to fight on, and just flee the scene.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
because unlike peter, spock does not have the will to fight on, and just flee the scene.

True. But the point still stands - he was too fast for the Spidey sense.

And Speed Demon is no Flash. Not sure what their average speeds are, however. But as the forum rules state:



So we know for certain, at least, that he's faster than Logan....

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by 8swords
hmmm never mind what I said, I just saw that, basing on the picture, its pre52, DC team wins this, stomp even.

Couple flaws with that reasoning.

1) In character, the pre52 DC characters are more restrained than their current counterparts. They're slow starters who are relatively permissive in what they "allow" their opponents to do, even in serious fights.

2) Taking this as the 2010 incarnation of all these characters (which is what pre52 dates to) means that we're also taking the 2010 version of Hulk. HotM Hulk.
A Hulk that was actually above the level Greg Pak showed us in his original World War Hulk series, wherein Hulk effectively took on every major superhero in New York, including the members of the Fantastic Four, Juggernaut, and the Sentry.

3) Aquaman pre52 was a bearded man with a hook for one of his hands.
The one shown in the pool hall picture is nothing like that; he's the spitting image of today's Aquaman. Batman in the pool hall picture likewise looks more like that current Batman than the preFlashpoint one, but I won't insist on that.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Couple flaws with that reasoning.

1) In character, the pre52 DC characters are more restrained than their current counterparts. They're slow starters who are relatively permissive in what they "allow" their opponents to do, even in serious fights.

2) Taking this as the 2010 incarnation of all these characters (which is what pre52 dates to) means that we're also taking the 2010 version of Hulk. HotM Hulk.
A Hulk that was actually above the level Greg Pak showed us in his original World War Hulk series, wherein Hulk effectively took on every major superhero in New York, including the members of the Fantastic Four, Juggernaut, and the Sentry.

3) Aquaman pre52 was a bearded man with a hook for one of his hands.
The one shown in the pool hall picture is nothing like that; he's the spitting image of today's Aquaman. Batman in the pool hall picture likewise looks more like that current Batman than the preFlashpoint one, but I won't insist on that.

Nah, no flaws.

1)Yes for some, but then, you gave everyone information on the opposing teams. So they know that the madder Hulk gets etc etc, Spider senses, and that Thor is a bona fide God of Thunder yadda yadda. No need to pull punches. Most of the time, they pussyfoot because they do not know what they are dealing with. The number of times Superman is happy because he doesn't need to hold back....

2)HoTM was released in 2011. Not 2010. Also, pre52 also dates to 2009/2008/2007 etc.

3)No, he wasn't always. Aquaman also looked like this:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120325180006/mugen/images/3/3b/Aquaman.jpg

The main difference of the nu52 is of course, Jim Lee's addition of collars. Google 'Jim Lee collars' if you want. You will then note none of the DC characters here have collars. Not to mention that Superman does not have the 'armoured look' of the nu52, and most tellingly, has red undies on the outside.

Note also how MM's costume differs significantly from nu52.

maxivitopowe
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EnJdB5o1U9s/TeWCQaeumII/AAAAAAAABrw/iStrGrKbhEc/s1600/LeeJustice.jpg

Wonder Woman is wearing a bustiere, why in **** does she have a collar as well

maxivitopowe
reminds me sorta of grrl power

bluewaterrider
This would be a great thread to use one of those random results generator programs.

Like that one someone designed that gave you three random superpowers and asked how you'd fare against a gauntlet of 7?


First things first, though: Going around the room we've got (left to right)

Spider-Woman Jessica ???/ or Black Widow.
Honestly not sure which. Both are/were part of the avengers.
Both red heads. Both spy types. Both social drinkers.
Both have/had a relationship with Tony, if memory serves.
Going with Jessica, not because of her spider power, but because she has the
inexplicable ability to resist mental assault, hypnosis, sleep commands, and the like.
(She actually did so against Professor Xavier in some recent storyline a year or so ago).

Iron Man (Tony Stark)
Hulk (Bruce Banner)
Thor (Jake Olson)
Rogue (Marie Hollander)
Spider-Man (Peter Parker)
Wolverine (James Howlett)
Captain America (Steve Rogers)
Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onnz)
Powerwoman (Karen Starr)
Superman (Clark Kent)
Flash (Barry Allen)
Aquaman (Arthur Curry)
Batman (Bruce Wayne)
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
Wonder Woman (Diana Prince)

DarkSaint85
Alas, that's widow. She has the gauntlets and belt of Natascha, plus Jessica has black hair.

Mindset
Wolverine solos.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Alas, that's widow.
She has the gauntlets and belt of Natasha,
plus Jessica has black hair.

confused

http://www.comicvine.com/julia-carpenter/4005-16197/

On the other hand, there are actually two Jessicas.

I don't know which one has the ability to resist telepathic suggestions and the like.

With my luck it's probably Jessica Drew, not red-headed Jessica Carpenter, that does this.
Given the fact her webbing is pure mental energy, mental resistance would be a more natural fit with Carpenter.
Then again, comic writers don't necessarily go with what actually makes the most sense ...

bluewaterrider
Ahk ...

What is wrong with me tonight?

3 AM usually doesn't see me making this kind of mistake.



I meant to say, of course, there are 2 SpiderWomen that are/were part of the Avengers team.

Natasha and the red-headed Spider-Woman are both red heads.
Red-headed Spider-Woman's name is Julia Carpenter and she has mental webbing.

I don't know which one was resisting Xavier's sleep command, which pretty much dropped all OTHER combatants in the area during whatever issue that was taking place in.

DarkSaint85
Yes but the costume is pure black widow. Look at her wrists, and that belt.

It was Jessica who resisted.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes but the costume is pure black widow.
Look at her wrists, and that belt.

It was Jessica who resisted.

The costume wouldn't help; with the exception of the 2012 movie, I've only seen Black Widow in a handful of stories, and each time she wore something different.


You're right about the 2nd part, though.

I found what I was looking for.

I no longer remember what story this was taken from, but Professor X himself calls Spider-Woman "Jessica Drew".

http://oi57.tinypic.com/5ahyzo.jpg

DarkSaint85
In the movie, she had gauntlets. Also, the belt. Certainly not a giant white spider like Carpenter.

Hell, just compare her to the Julie Carpenter picture YOU YOURSELF posted. I know you're trying so hard to have a TP resistant person on your team, but no, just give it up. If you're still unsure, look online.

Basic research is your friend. Its like you don't even read comics....

Edit: and it shows, when you don't know what storyline that scan you posted is from....

8swords
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Couple flaws with that reasoning.

1) In character, the pre52 DC characters are more restrained than their current counterparts. They're slow starters who are relatively permissive in what they "allow" their opponents to do, even in serious fights.

2) Taking this as the 2010 incarnation of all these characters (which is what pre52 dates to) means that we're also taking the 2010 version of Hulk. HotM Hulk.
A Hulk that was actually above the level Greg Pak showed us in his original World War Hulk series, wherein Hulk effectively took on every major superhero in New York, including the members of the Fantastic Four, Juggernaut, and the Sentry.

3) Aquaman pre52 was a bearded man with a hook for one of his hands.
The one shown in the pool hall picture is nothing like that; he's the spitting image of today's Aquaman. Batman in the pool hall picture likewise looks more like that current Batman than the preFlashpoint one, but I won't insist on that.


1.soo you mean to tell me that they would restrain their a**es to defeat?


2.???

3. pretty sure that theres a clean shaved AQ b4 52

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
1.soo you mean to tell me that they would restrain their a**es to defeat?


2.???

3. pretty sure that theres a clean shaved AQ b4 52

1. bluewaterrider also gave everyone on the Marvel team information on the DC team (to the extent Thor was sending them to a light gravity, red sun planet), but for some reason, the DC team, despite knowing how powerful Thor/Hulk are, will still restrain themselves...

2. Yeah.....he messed up there.

3. He also messed up here.

Tony Stark

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by 8swords

you mean to tell me that they would restrain ... to defeat?


Oh, not just me.

Try arguing with a DC fan about the true power levels of their favorite character and watch how many "handicaps" you discover the DC characters are operating under.

Yet the fact remains:

In character, most of the people in this pool room, Marvel characters included, DO act with restraint,
at least compared to what their powerset actually allows them to do at full forum poster "chesspiece" potential.

And the pre-Flashpoint versions of the DC characters are, in general, more restrained than the current versions of the DC characters.



Originally posted by 8swords

2.???


2011 featured the Heart of the Monster (Hotm) storyline, not 2010, just as Dark said.

Yes. I messed up the date.

Makes little difference as far as this thread is concerned.
Only relevant consideration is the power level of the Hulk chosen for this brawl.

Hulk on the following level:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk28.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk29.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk30.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk31.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk32.jpg

can reasonably be expected to hold his own against any 2 or 3 characters in the scenario we're given here, pre52 or otherwise,
and likewise has a good chance of knocking any given DC character out.

Originally posted by 8swords


3. pretty sure that there's a clean shaved AQ b4 52


Pretty sure there's one after 52 as well, the current one, and, quite unlike the one shown by DarkSaint,
though nearly exactly like the one shown in our pool hall poster, he doesn't have a water hand.

God Cloth Seiya

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Oh, not just me.

Try arguing with a DC fan about the true power levels of their favorite character and watch how many "handicaps" you discover the DC characters are operating under.

Yet the fact remains:

In character, most of the people in this pool room, Marvel characters included, DO act with restraint,
at least compared to what their powerset actually allows them to do at full forum poster "chesspiece" potential.

And the pre-Flashpoint versions of the DC characters are, in general, more restrained than the current versions of the DC characters.





2011 featured the Heart of the Monster (Hotm) storyline, not 2010, just as Dark said.

Yes. I messed up the date.

Makes little difference as far as this thread is concerned.
Only relevant consideration is the power level of the Hulk chosen for this brawl.

Hulk on the following level:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk28.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk29.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk30.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk31.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20N-S/HulkvsRulk32.jpg

can reasonably be expected to hold his own against any 2 or 3 characters in the scenario we're given here, pre52 or otherwise,
and likewise has a good chance of knocking any given DC character out.

Assuming, of course, we were given certain power levels of DC characters which ensured a Marvel victory.....




He's wearing a glove in the picture....which water hand Aquaman wore as well....

Not to mention, lack of a collar. And Superman/WW/Martian Manhunter all have pre-52 costumes.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

bluewaterrider ... gave everyone on the Marvel team information on the DC team (to the extent Thor was sending them to a light gravity, red sun planet),
but for some reason, the DC team, despite knowing how powerful Thor/Hulk are, will still restrain themselves...


Actually, Bluewaterrider just chose a random possibility based on what Thor seems to like doing nowadays which, NOT coincidentally, benefits team Marvel.

That was more of a fun challenge to you than anything else, since the rule of good fighting manners
dictates restraint for anybody not named Wolverine from all these heroes
(Hulk would only be unrestrained if we went with an unintelligent version not fully
aware of the damage he can do to combatants like Widow or Batman by accident) anyway.

Yes, if Thor HAS information on Superman and PowerWoman and the Flash there is wisdom in the choice,
given there are still heavy DC hitters for Thors team to contend with afterwards,
but that was really just
"Let's pick this possible action given the surprisingly wide variety of strategies Thor has been displaying in fights in recent months and go from there", on my part.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Actually, Bluewaterrider just chose a random possibility based on what Thor seems to like doing nowadays which, NOT coincidentally, benefits team Marvel.

That was more of a fun challenge to you than anything else, since the rule of good fighting manners
dictates restraint for anybody not named Wolverine from all these heroes
(Hulk would only be unrestrained if we went with an unintelligent version not fully
aware of the damage he can do to combatants like Widow or Batman by accident) anyway.

Yes, if Thor HAS information on Superman and PowerWoman and the Flash there is wisdom in the choice,
given there are still heavy DC hitters for Thors team to contend with afterwards,
but that was really just
"Let's pick this possible action given the surprisingly wide variety of strategies Thor has been displaying in fights in recent months and go from there", on my part.

Problem with that is, Superman pre-FP...well, there is also a wide variety of strategies he could use to singlehandedly win. Not to mention Flash would achieve a victory as well, based on how Barry behaved pre-FP.

Are you still mistakenly assuming that there's a Spiderwoman in the picture? And that it's nu52 characters?

-Pr-
The last Aquaman to wear that variant of the costume was, I believe, the water-hand version.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by -Pr-
The last Aquaman to wear that variant of the costume was, I believe, the water-hand version.

He has gloves doe. And Aquaman can't wear gloves.....

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

He's wearing a glove in the picture ...
which water hand Aquaman wore as well ...

Not to mention, lack of a collar.
And Superman/WW/Martian Manhunter all have pre-52 costumes.


Not giving you pre-Flashpoint Aquaman without scans, Dark.
Our pool hall Aquaman looks nothing like the Millennial one (2000-2010).

For that matter, the Green Lantern used preFlashpoint on the Justice League team was mostly John Stewart, not Hal Jordan, as is the case now.

Flash fits either era.

And I still say Batman looks more current than recent yesteryear, but I'm not yet insisting on it.


Find me some reasonable proof that the artist of this scene was trying to represent pre-Flashpoint Aquaman,
like the year of its creation being 2009 or something.

Likewise, I'm perfectly willing to "explore" scenarios with you with various rosters.

But if you're trying to assert that's really supposed to be pre-Flashpoint Aquaman for this discussion, you need some proof.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Are you still mistakenly assuming that there's a Spiderwoman in the picture?

Hard for me to shake the idea, given my viewing of the Iron Man cartoon where the redhead woman near Tony was nearly ALWAYS her,
but, no, I'm not still objectively assuming there's a Spiderwoman in the picture.

Just fighting the persistence of memory now, is all ...


Originally posted by DarkSaint85

And that it's nu52 characters?


Show me this pool hall work was produced in some year that is pre52 and we've got no argument.
Otherwise, no, a case for probably half the DC characters being 52 can be made, even as the Marvel characters look post-2010 as well.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not giving you pre-Flashpoint Aquaman without scans, Dark.
Our pool hall Aquaman looks nothing like the Millennial one (2000-2010).

For that matter, the Green Lantern used preFlashpoint on the Justice League team was mostly John Stewart, not Hal Jordan, as is the case now.

Flash fits either era.

And I still say Batman looks more current than recent yesteryear, but I'm not yet insisting on it.


Find me some reasonable proof that the artist of this scene was trying to represent pre-Flashpoint Aquaman,
like the year of its creation being 2009 or something.

Likewise, I'm perfectly willing to "explore" scenarios with you with various rosters.

But if you're trying to assert that's really supposed to be pre-Flashpoint Aquaman for this discussion, you need some proof.

The picture was drawn in 2013 - but that doesn't mean anything.

Proof:
Distinct lack of collar
Belt design (DCnU is a solid band, as opposed to two thin strips)
The presence of Hal Jordan, not Stewart, means nothing, as Hal was part of the JLA pre-FP.
HOWEVER, there is no question that it IS pre-FP Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and Power Girl (she has no line across her shoulders). Flash, as you say, could fit both, and you are unconvinced about Batman.

So in a team of 8, that's four pre-FP, possibly 5/6 with Flash/GL, and you're unsure about Bats.

So why would Aquaman be nu52 ??

-Pr-
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He has gloves doe. And Aquaman can't wear gloves.....

During the Geoff Johns run coming up to Infinite Crisis, Water hand Aquaman wore gloves.

See his fight with Despero in JLA 115, I think it was.

Actually, correction: The last time Aquaman had the particular collar in that picture, was pre-hook hand. Actually, the last time he had it, that I can see, was pre-COIE.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

there is no question that it IS pre-FP ... Power Girl
(she has no line across her shoulders).


erm

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2eltqad.jpg


Though in this case, like your supposed pre52, non-Silver Age, clean-shaven, glove-wearing Aquaman,
it could be this is just an example of extreme underrepresentation.

I generally keep up on the Supergirl title and not World's Finest, or Power Woman, or whatever title it is Karen appears in now, so like you, I probably think certain costume designs are more prevalent and well-known than they really are.

SquallX

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
erm

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2eltqad.jpg


Though in this case, like your supposed pre52, non-Silver Age, clean-shaven, glove-wearing Aquaman,
it could be this is just an example of extreme underrepresentation.

I generally keep up on the Supergirl title and not World's Finest, or Power Woman, or whatever title it is Karen appears in now, so like you, I probably think certain costume designs are more prevalent and well-known than they really are.

He WAS clean shaven, and wearing gloves pre-52, and was non Silver Age to boot. Pr has already mentioned one example..

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Not to mention Flash would achieve a victory as well, based on how Barry behaved pre-FP.


"Not to mention".

And then he mentions precisely that ...


Typical.



Originally posted by DarkSaint85

... based on how Barry behaved pre-FP.


Dark, is this the "lunch speed" version of the Flash and Superman you're trying to go with?
Which was featured for both in exactly ONE issue that I know of, just before Flashpoint?
And is even less typical a depiction of either character than Hulk making the Eastern Seaboard shake with a single stomp is?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Not to mention".

And then he mentions precisely that ...


Typical.





Dark, is this the "lunch speed" version of the Flash and Superman you're trying to go with?
Which was featured for both in exactly ONE issue that I know of, just before Flashpoint?
And is even less typical a depiction of either character than Hulk making the Eastern Seaboard shake with a single stomp is?


Originally posted by bluewaterrider

but that was really just
"Let's pick this possible action given the surprisingly wide variety of strategies Flash/Superman has been displaying in fights in recent months and go from there", on my part.

Hope it sounds familiar. I was only responding to what you were doing.

-Pr-
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He WAS clean shaven, and wearing gloves pre-52, and was non Silver Age to boot. Pr has already mentioned one example..

He was clean shaven, wearing gloves and had the water hand during infinite crisis.

Sadly, the collar isn't the same.

Unless I'm mistaken, the guy in that picture looks most like Pre Crisis Aquaman.

DarkSaint85
This is what I found:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/2309481-aquamanmental03.jpg

Not as low-cut as the OP's, sure, but it IS a night out...

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

He WAS clean shaven, and wearing gloves pre-52, and was non Silver Age to boot.
Pr has already mentioned one example.



Yes, but he then proceeded to correct himself.

Twice.


Originally posted by -Pr-

During the Geoff Johns run coming up to Infinite Crisis, Water hand Aquaman wore gloves.

See his fight with Despero in JLA 115, I think it was.



Originally posted by -Pr-

Actually, correction:
The last time Aquaman had the particular collar in that picture, was pre-hook hand.



Originally posted by -Pr-


Actually, the last time he had it, that I can see, was pre-COIE.

SquallX

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes, but he then proceeded to correct himself.

Twice.

He was correcting himself with respect to the collar. NOT the presence of gloves, shaving and/or water hand.

I see you haven't answered my points about PG/MM/WW/Supes.

And GL/Flash could fit in either.

So that leaves Bats which you're unsure about, and mulishness with sticking to Aquaman. I am reminded the last time we tussled like this, which was when you kept harping on about Rulk still being able to absorb energy as he used to do. Which of course, you lost that.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is what I found:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/2309481-aquamanmental03.jpg

Not as low-cut as the OP's, sure, but it IS a night out...


Hmm.

You posted while I was typing up my last response.


Above isn't bad, though I still don't think the pool hall illustrator had that in mind.

At this point you'd be better off proposing what exactly you think Aquaman will do in this fight, though --
you're not likely to truly convince me if even Pr disagrees with you without quite a few more scans.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I see you haven't answered my points about PG/MM/WW/Supes.


I DID answer you concerning PG.

Check above.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by tkitna
Not sure if this was done before, but what side do you think wins if a brawl does break out?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Ash_ED/343878650_n_zps98c6e4bc.jpg~original

DC seems stacked to me and would win for sure, but there's been some dissension towards that opinion and just wondering what everybody else thought. Bats should take on BW, seeing as how they are the 2 only actual humans in the room
Aquaman vs Cap America
PowerGirl vs Rogue
GL vs IM
The Flash can take on both Spidey and Logan
Superman takes on Thor
MM vs the Hulk
and I would leave WW to play wild card to help out either Supes or MM when and if needs it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hmm.

You posted while I was typing up my last response.


Above isn't bad, though I still don't think the pool hall illustrator had that in mind.

At this point you'd be better off proposing what exactly you think Aquaman will do in this fight, though --
you're not likely to truly convince me if even Pr disagrees with you without quite a few more scans.

Well, if he has the Hand of the Waterbearer, which cures mutations, then...it doesn't look too good for Wolverine (which is who I had in my matchup anyway, regardless of the Aquaman version; see Page 1). Or he and J'onn could combine their telepathy and send all of team Marvel to sleep (thanks for bringing up the Xavier showing, by the way). He could also form constructs (not on the level of GL) and fight with that. Or dehydrate the opposing team members. He could shoot boiling water, or freezing ice. Of course, it also amped his strength somewhat, so there's that.

Without it, so post Brightest Day, then he could just punch and use telepathy, which is still pretty strong.

-Pr-
I honestly don't think the artist really knew what he was doing, and for the most part just drew the costumes he knew best, or the ones that came up first on a google search.

Modern Iron Man but Pre Crisis Aquaman and Brown Suit Wolverine doesn't really make sense to me.

Might be better if we just give a blanket "Pre Flashpoint", or "New 52" ruling and go with it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't think the artist really knew what he was doing, and for the most part just drew the costumes he knew best, or the ones that came up first on a google search.

Modern Iron Man but Pre Crisis Aquaman and Brown Suit Wolverine doesn't really make sense to me.

Might be better if we just give a blanket "Pre Flashpoint", or "New 52" ruling and go with it.

Plus, Batman looks like Baleman, what with the armoured stomach.

Edit: call it.

bluewaterrider
"Let's pick this possible action given the surprisingly wide variety of strategies Flash/Superman has been displaying in fights in recent months and go from there"


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hope it sounds familiar. I was only responding to what you were doing.

That'd be fine, except you're trying to argue based on what Flash/Superman supposedly did several years ago now, not in recent months

and, quite unlike Thor, who apparently does now use spells, and teleportation, and surprise lightning strikes, and the mystical weight of Mjolnir,
as opposed to his rather jobbish performances of a few years back where he was largely a damage sponge trying to more or less hammer his way through all problems.

-Pr-
You guys can choose which you would prefer for DC, if you like.

I'd be inclined to make it Pre Flashpoint to make it more fair, but i'm not unreasonable.

DarkSaint85
Tbh, I'm more familar with pre-FP. Plus, there would be more showings to use - what, for example, are PG's showings? MM? He has a few, but they are pretty polar (taking on the League, but without knowing the outcome of the fight etc)

SO I am inclined to vote for a pre-FP.

Rao Kal El
Team DC

More firepower with more top tiers on their side and a faster way of coordination via telepathic link.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-

You guys can choose which you would prefer for DC, if you like.

I'd be inclined to make it Pre Flashpoint to make it more fair, but i'm not unreasonable.


I don't see why this needs a ruling at all if even you yourself don't believe the illustrator had a firm canon roster in mind.

It's quite easy to argue both cases here.

I AM curious as to why you think pre-Flashpoint would be more fair or in what sense, though.

DarkSaint85
I don't really trust your arguments, tbh, blue; considering you mixed:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120917033446/marveldatabase/images/a/a3/Madame_Web_AmzingSpiderMan_673_TheGroup_018.png

With:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120315064652/avengersalliance/images/7/7c/Black_Widow_Marvel_XP.png

With:

http://assets2.ignimgs.com/2005/08/05/spider-woman-20050805022117558-1194763_640w.jpg

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't really trust your arguments, tbh, blue


The beauty of a properly proceeding forum discussion is that you don't have to trust the other side.

Instead, you make your case and present evidence that can be verified, and people decide for themselves.

I mean, seriously, you're trying to make your case based on how 2 red heads are drawn by 2 different artists with different styles
as to whether characterization and fight strategies are sound
... based on the artwork of a third artist?



While we're on such topics, I haven't forgotten that, in regards to that "Rulk" thing you weren't concerned about whether or not he could do it. You just wanted to win your debate.
So you tried to get a judge to effectively side with you and SILENCE discussion.
Which you largely succeeded at.

Whereas the proper way to do things is simply to go to the comics and provide evidence from there as to what Rulk could or could not do at that point.

Which someone eventually did.


If you do what you're supposed to, there's no judge save the audience necessary.

If I were nearly as untrustworthy as you're suggesting, I wouldn't have posted that Xavier/Jessica Drew scan for people to examine to resolve the matter in your favor.

I've been quite forthcoming about what I've presented and why in this thread.

Stoic
The picture posted by the thread starter looks to be of characters from different time periods. Rogue for example hasn't sported that costume since the 90's if I am not mistaken, while Thor's uniform is of recent times. It would have helped the debate if we were given a specific era that all of the characters were from. Superman could be pre crisis for all we know?

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Stoic
The picture posted by the thread starter looks to be of characters from different time periods. Rogue for example hasn't sported that costume since the 90's if I am not mistaken, while Thor's uniform is of recent times. It would have helped the debate if we were given a specific era that all of the characters were from. Superman could be pre crisis for all we know?

Pre-Crisis Superman wouldn't be involved in bar fight.

Actually, Pre-Crisis Superman wouldn't be in a bar, period.


Unless we're talking Golden Age Superman.

THAT guy I could see in a bar.

THAT guy I could see getting into a fight, and a GOOD one, at that ...

bluewaterrider
We need a randomizer.

Anybody know of a program that can match 8 items with 8 corresponding items?

Here's what we have so far for the rosters, though:

Marvel

1. Black Widow (Natasha Romanov)
2. Iron Man (Tony Stark)
3. Hulk (Bruce Banner)
4. Thor (Jake Olson)
5. Rogue (Marie Hollander)
6. Spider-Man (Peter Parker)
7. Wolverine (James Howlett)
8. Captain America (Steve Rogers)

DC

a. Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onnz)
b. Powerwoman (Karen Starr)
c. Superman (Clark Kent)
d. Flash (Barry Allen)
e. Aquaman (Arthur Curry)
f. Batman (Bruce Wayne)
g. Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
h. Wonder Woman (Diana Prince)

Stoic
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pre-Crisis Superman wouldn't be involved in bar fight.

Actually, Pre-Crisis Superman wouldn't be in a bar, period.


Unless we're talking Golden Age Superman.

THAT guy I could see in a bar.

THAT guy I could see getting into a fight, and a GOOD one, at that ...

Yes I know, but I was just saying that the costume that Superman has on in that pic could be from several different eras, all except for the new DC or current era.All the same I give the majority to DC in this one. Marvel has no answer for Power Girl or Wonder Woman, and would be stretched thin when Rogue and Black Widow eventually go down. Flash and is an incredible wild card here as Dark Saint pointed out from the beginning.

carver9
This fight is retarded.

Flyattractor
What if each team only fighting each other by actually only playing POOL/Billiards?

Who would win then?

With Powers and Without?

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by carver9
This fight is retarded.

So are most fights on KMC.


Originally posted by Stoic

I give the majority to DC in this one.


From a pure power standpoint, but power only, so would I.
Not so sure what happens if we actually argue this with characters who are IN character, though.

Originally posted by Stoic

Marvel has no answer for Power Girl or Wonder Woman,
and would be stretched thin when Rogue and Black Widow eventually go down.


Hulk or Thor for Wonder Woman. Hulk or Thor for Power Woman.
I don't see Rogue going down if she actually uses her power in this fight,
unless she tries to go for Martian Manhunter, in which case she more than likely eliminates herself.
Rogue with Wonder Woman's power, though? Or Power Woman's? Or Superman's? Who on DC's side would take her out, then?

Originally posted by Stoic

Flash is an incredible wild card here as Dark Saint pointed out from the beginning.



Yep. The biggest, discounting the possible exceptions of Thor and Martian Manhunter.


Some questions need to be answered, though:

Who is likeliest to start this fight? To fuel it?
(Wolverine is certainly one of the answers here.
The DCnU version of Hal Jordan would be another contributor.)

Who would be likeliest to try to stop the fight? To reason with people and/or cease hostilities?
(J'onn J'onnz. PRE- Flashpoint Wonder Woman, though perhaps not her current incarnation. Batman. Captain America under normal conditions, but here he seems to be cast as an instigator by the illustrator)

What level would the fight escalate to?
How much restraint and consideration for the safety of others would each hero have?
(Wolverine and Hulk, historically, are the least restrained)

A sleep command from Martian Manhunter would end things without much of a fight, but, would that be in character? At what POINT would that be so?
Is it true of DCnU Manhunter as well?

What WOULD Thor do in character now, given his current incarnation?
He's proven a lot more of a "take this outside" type person than he used to be ...


(More later.)

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Mindset
Wolverine solos.

mmm

Wolverine DID take Lobo ...



Does anyone remember what happened the first time Lobo and Superman got into a fight?


http://oi60.tinypic.com/2e31s8x.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/mj4g92.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2dazoqu.jpg
http://oi61.tinypic.com/16bgc1s.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2cnv8kn.jpg

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The beauty of a properly proceeding forum discussion is that you don't have to trust the other side.

Instead, you make your case and present evidence that can be verified, and people decide for themselves.

I mean, seriously, you're trying to make your case based on how 2 red heads are drawn by 2 different artists with different styles
as to whether characterization and fight strategies are sound
... based on the artwork of a third artist?



While we're on such topics, I haven't forgotten that, in regards to that "Rulk" thing you weren't concerned about whether or not he could do it. You just wanted to win your debate.
So you tried to get a judge to effectively side with you and SILENCE discussion.
Which you largely succeeded at.

Whereas the proper way to do things is simply to go to the comics and provide evidence from there as to what Rulk could or could not do at that point.

Which someone eventually did.


If you do what you're supposed to, there's no judge save the audience necessary.

If I were nearly as untrustworthy as you're suggesting, I wouldn't have posted that Xavier/Jessica Drew scan for people to examine to resolve the matter in your favor.

I've been quite forthcoming about what I've presented and why in this thread.

The main issue I had, was that I was the one who posted proof, which you ignored, and used an older scan for you case. And wouldn't give up the point. In the end, I had to get a judge.

THAT was why I took issue with it. I actually told you the issue, date of publication etc, but you refused to accept it (until the end).

But that's not the main issue here, and I apologise for bringing it up.

I brought up the point of the redheads as well, because her outfit is classic Widow, especially of recent depictions. And looks very different from Carpenter or Drew's costumes.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm

Wolverine DID take Lobo ...



Thats only because LOBO passed out after falling behind the bar.

Mainly from boredom from fighting Jimmy.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm

Does anyone remember what happened the first time Lobo and Superman got into a fight?


http://oi60.tinypic.com/2e31s8x.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/mj4g92.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2dazoqu.jpg
http://oi61.tinypic.com/16bgc1s.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2cnv8kn.jpg






Originally posted by Flyattractor


That's only because LOBO passed out after falling behind the bar.

Mainly from boredom from fighting Jimmy.



roll eyes (sarcastic)


http://oi60.tinypic.com/28bzlmu.jpg

(Source: DC versus Marvel #3)

Flyattractor
Well that does prove what Wolive is really The Best At!

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Flyattractor

does prove what Wolvie is really The Best At!


mmm

There does seem to be some easily misconstrue-able context about that scan ... hard to say what exactly ...


On the other hand, if what I THINK you're suggesting is true, that might mean Marvel DOES actually have an answer for Power Woman in our present scenario ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dark.



You've obviously got some ideas.

Have some answers for the following so we can go over it tomorrow.

(You in turn can come up with some questions for me.)

Have a good day.



Originally posted by bluewaterrider


Who is likeliest to start this fight? To fuel it?
(Wolverine is certainly one of the answers here.
The DCnU version of Hal Jordan would be another contributor.)

Who would be likeliest to try to stop the fight? To reason with people and/or cease hostilities?
(J'onn J'onnz. PRE- Flashpoint Wonder Woman, though perhaps not her current incarnation. Batman.
Captain America under normal conditions, but here he seems to be cast as an instigator by the illustrator)

What level would the fight escalate to?
How much restraint and consideration for the safety of others would each hero have?
(Wolverine and Hulk, historically, are the least restrained)

A sleep command from Martian Manhunter would end things without much of a fight, but, would that be in character?
At what POINT would that be so?
Is it true of DCnU Manhunter as well?

What WOULD Thor do in character now, given his current incarnation?
He's proven a lot more of a "take this outside" type person than he used to be ...

God Cloth Seiya
DC wins every time

abhilegend
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm

Wolverine DID take Lobo ...



Does anyone remember what happened the first time Lobo and Superman got into a fight?


http://oi60.tinypic.com/2e31s8x.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/mj4g92.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2dazoqu.jpg
http://oi61.tinypic.com/16bgc1s.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2cnv8kn.jpg
Mindcontrolled Superman. This happens when he is in his right mind under the same writer.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/AdventuresOfAnnual02c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/AdventuresOfAnnual02d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/AdventuresOfAnnual02e.jpg

But you wouldn't know that, would you?

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