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Lucifer Morningstar

VS

Mad Jim Jaspers

Morningstar or Madness?

LM

Lucifer, all day, every day.

Jaspers, all day, every day.

Lucifer, easily.

Originally posted by CortSether
Jaspers, all day, every day.
Based on literally nothing whatsoever.

Lucifer.

Jaspers destroys Lucifer and his entire universe.

They have basically the same powerset except Lucifer has actually used his better, has 100% control over it, and is unbelievably smarter...to say nothing of how his power is greater (God's infinite will, yo).

Originally posted by zopzop
Jaspers destroys Lucifer and his entire universe.

Only to realize that Lucifer tricked him into imprisoning himself, after giving his powers up and swore his fealty to Lucifer.

Originally posted by SquallX
Only to realize that Lucifer tricked him into imprisoning himself, after giving his powers up and swore his fealty to Lucifer.
Then Lucifer woke up from his dream and realized that MJJ had warped him and his entire reality into an ant farm.

Originally posted by zopzop
Then Lucifer woke up from his dream and realized that MJJ had warped him and his entire reality into an ant farm.

Your irrational hate for Lucifer is strong, but in the end...nobody cares

Originally posted by Cogito
Your irrational hate for Lucifer is strong, but in the end...nobody cares
You obviously care enough to respond.

Back to the thread though, an entire universe was wiped out in an attempt to kill a WEAKER version of Jaspers. 616 Jaspers unleashed is beyond Lucifer.

Originally posted by Cogito
Your irrational hate for Lucifer is strong, but in the end...nobody cares
He's Catholic. He can't help it.

Originally posted by zopzop
You obviously care enough to respond.

Originally posted by zopzop
You obviously care enough to respond.

Back to the thread though, an entire universe was wiped out in an attempt to kill a WEAKER version of Jaspers. 616 Jaspers unleashed is beyond Lucifer.

Lucifer took a blast head on, then he willed said energy and created a Multiverse that was outside the Presence influences.

Pretty sure that's more impressive.

Originally posted by SquallX
Lucifer took a blast head on, then he willed said energy and created a Multiverse that was outside the Presence influences.
Except that it wasn't his power, he just molded it. And the fact that his creation was stated to be a universe just as much, if not more, times than it was stated to be a multiverse.


Pretty sure it's not. But to each his own.

Lucifer wins

Originally posted by zopzop

Except that it wasn't his power, he just molded it. And the fact that his creation was stated to be a universe just as much, if not more, times than it was stated to be a multiverse.


Pretty sure it's not. But to each his own.

What does it not being his power have to do with the feat again?

He only molded Michael's energies after he was hit by it.

Lucifer claimed it was a Multiverse, so guess what, anything any other characters that are not Lucifer says, unless they trump Lucifer in knowledge are wrong. IE the Presence.

Originally posted by Cogito
They have basically the same powerset except Lucifer has actually used his better, has 100% control over it, and is unbelievably smarter...to say nothing of how his power is greater (God's infinite will, yo).
There is also the fact that Lucifer is still a winged humanoid with superhuman stats, unlike his opponent who just becomes a dawdling buffoon when they're both in a void.

Originally posted by zopzop
You obviously care enough to respond.

Back to the thread though, an entire universe was wiped out in an attempt to kill a WEAKER version of Jaspers. 616 Jaspers unleashed is beyond Lucifer.
Lucifer destroyed a dimension full of alternate realities simply by being present within it. Beats any on-panel feat performed by any version of Jaspers ever. By like a mile or so.

I wouldn't place n Lucifer's league

Originally posted by Epicurus
There is also the fact that Lucifer is still a winged humanoid with superhuman stats, unlike his opponent who just becomes a dawdling buffoon when they're both in a void.

What has he done that puts him at super human levels?

Originally posted by Golgo13
What has he done that puts him at super human levels? He can fly.

Do you know any humans that can fly?

Thought not.

Jaspers jump kicks him to death. Not enough.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Lucifer destroyed a dimension full of alternate realities simply by being present within it. Beats any on-panel feat performed by any version of Jaspers ever. By like a mile or so.
Merlyn's feats are far and beyond Jaspers too.

Yet, even the weaker 238 JJ was > Merlyn.

Jaspers is GOD withIN his warp.

It's that simple.
Whatever anyone can do outside his warp is inconsequential,
if you're touched by the warp, then you're his plaything.

That was the story and character make-up.
He was given a plot of course to stop him.
This plot is called the Fury.

This is why I don't enjoy cross-company battles of this scale.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Based on literally nothing whatsoever.

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/Sise-Neg/Gifs/opg1d.gif

Seriously though, you are really assmad.

Originally posted by Golgo13
What has he done that puts him at super human levels?
The fact that all angels in general have superhuman stats? Read the Lucifer series written by Mike Carey for relevant feats. It's a relly good read, very well-written. Thank me later on.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Merlyn's feats are far and beyond Jaspers too.

Yet, even the weaker 238 JJ was > Merlyn.

Jaspers is GOD withIN his warp.

It's that simple.
Whatever anyone can do outside his warp is inconsequential,
if you're touched by the warp, then you're his plaything.

That was the story and character make-up.
He was given a plot of course to stop him.
This plot is called the Fury.

This is why I don't enjoy cross-company battles of this scale.
Merlyn isn't Lucifer. Not even close to Lucifer.

Lucifer kills Gods for the sh1ts and giggles. Even when he's depowered.

This is why he'll stomp a complete mudhole all over Jaspers' ugly face in this thread.

Originally posted by Epicurus
The fact that all angels in general have superhuman stats? Read the Lucifer series written by Mike Carey for relevant feats. It's a relly good read, very well-written. Thank me later on.

I did read half of it. I remember him crushing a box with his bare hands. Not a cardboard box, either.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Merlyn isn't Lucifer. Not even close to Lucifer.

Lucifer kills Gods for the sh1ts and giggles. Even when he's depowered.

This is why he'll stomp a complete mudhole all over Jaspers' ugly face in this thread.

Are all Vertigo fans as far up their ass as you?

Lucifer wins and actually they are similar in some way, even Lucifer can't create anything out of nothing... he needs his brother and he proved to be powerless in certain dimensions... so actually he is far from being omnipotent and the same goes for MJJ... actually they both need reality and then their shaping power seems limitless... so actually Lucifer and MJJ are really similar power wise... so no... Lucifer is not more powerful than MJJ was and Lucifer had in no way better feats.



Means nothing against MJJ who would do the same effortlesly.

Anyway, HoM Wanda beats them both.

Lucifer dominates.

Lucifer, easily.

And I rarely visit this forum anymore, but zopzop's comments are hilariously inane. I don't know how anyone takes him seriously on here.

Originally posted by zopzop

Except that it wasn't his power, he just molded it. And the fact that his creation was stated to be a universe just as much, if not more, times than it was stated to be a multiverse.


His creation was stated to be a multiverse just once, and a universal several times. But let's put that aside, and restate the point which you apparently keep on ignoring.

Yahweh's creation is a proven multiverse given that we saw on panel, actual alternate realities. In other words, regardless of what term is used to describe Yahweh's creation, it's unarguably a multiverse. Thing is, Lucifer and Michael were the ones who created it (stated on panel more than once, and confirmed by a bio). So that's a proven multiverse right there (which Lucifer created), undeniably. I can understand people not accepting Lucifer's creation as a multiverse (even though i do, mostly because in Lucifer: Nirvana, Lucifer specifically corrected Mazikeen that his creation is a multiverse, and the fact that Vertigo in general doesn't use the term frequently)....but saying that Yahweh's creation isn't a multiverse, is ignoring evidence.

Don't come back with your "Lucifer + MICHAEL" reply, because ive heard it too many times now. Michael merely releases the energy which Lucifer shapes to his whim, instantly. Meaning inside a given multiverse/universe; Lucifer can shape/control all aspects of reality however he likes, and he does so, instantly (unlike MJJ, who needs his warp to become all powerful within a reality, and this warp of his, takes time).

Also....(another point which you continually avoid, so ill restate it and see your counter): Lucifer is above abstracts such as Dream (whose partial power was enough to create a multiverse, instantly), and Death (who operates on a megaversal scale)......so what has Jaspers done to suggest that he can take on someone on that level? (Please don't say that MJJ being above Merlyn somehow equates to Lucifer being above the endless, because it absolutely doesn't).

MJJ stands zero chance against Lucifer without his warp. With his warp, it'd be interesting to see, though ill still go with Lucifer.

Originally posted by operator616
His creation was stated to be a multiverse just once, and a universal several times. But let's put that aside, and restate the point which you apparently keep on ignoring.

Yahweh's creation is a proven multiverse given that we saw on panel, actual alternate realities. In other words, regardless of what term is used to describe Yahweh's creation, it's unarguably a multiverse. Thing is, Lucifer and Michael were the ones who created it (stated on panel more than once, and confirmed by a bio). So that's a proven multiverse right there (which Lucifer created), undeniably. I can understand people not accepting Lucifer's creation as a multiverse (even though i do, mostly because in Lucifer: Nirvana, Lucifer specifically corrected Mazikeen that his creation is a multiverse, and the fact that Vertigo in general doesn't use the term frequently)....but saying that Yahweh's creation isn't a multiverse, is ignoring evidence.

Don't come back with your "Lucifer + MICHAEL" reply, because ive heard it too many times now. Michael merely releases the energy which Lucifer shapes to his whim, instantly. Meaning inside a given multiverse/universe; Lucifer can shape/control all aspects of reality however he likes, and he does so, instantly (unlike MJJ, who needs his warp to become all powerful within a reality, and this warp of his, takes time).

Also....(another point which you continually avoid, so ill restate it and see your counter): Lucifer is above abstracts such as Dream (whose partial power was enough to create a multiverse, instantly), and Death (who operates on a megaversal scale)......so what has Jaspers done to suggest that he can take on someone on that level? (Please don't say that MJJ being above Merlyn somehow equates to Lucifer being above the endless, because it absolutely doesn't).

MJJ stands zero chance against Lucifer without his warp. With his warp, it'd be interesting to see, though ill still go with Lucifer.
Yes he shaped MICHAEL'S ENERGY. It took both of them to create a universe.

PS Yahweh's creation was also called a universe.

Lucifer wins.

I doubt very highly that Fury's 'un-warpability'(he was immune to MJJ's warp, remember) would be greater than Lucifer and his infinite will. If Lucifer doesn't want to be warped, he isn't going to be warped--tbh, I'd be surprised if he couldn't simply usurp control over MJJ's warp from him. /shrug

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes he shaped MICHAEL'S ENERGY. It took both of them to create a universe.


Dude....are you trying not to understand me or what?

It's really simple. Michael releases the energy, which Lucifer shapes to his whim.

So the point is: within a reality, Lucifer would be nigh-omnipotent considering he can shape it however he likes it.


Originally posted by zopzop
PS Yahweh's creation was also called a universe.

Well, i was hoping you wouldn't say that...

But okay, seems like you'll keep repeating this same point till you get proven wrong with evidence.

Ill come back with scans confirming that Vertigo/Yahweh's creation multiverse. In the meantime though, im still waiting for this part (which yet again, you avoided; nice try though):

Originally posted by operator616
Also....(another point which you continually avoid, so ill restate it and see your counter): Lucifer is above abstracts such as Dream (whose partial power was enough to create a multiverse, instantly), and Death (who operates on a megaversal scale)......so what has Jaspers done to suggest that he can take on someone on that level? (Please don't say that MJJ being above Merlyn somehow equates to Lucifer being above the endless, because it absolutely doesn't).

Do you have a counter for that, or do you concede this point?

Originally posted by zopzop
PS Yahweh's creation was also called a universe.

Right. Just to be clear, unless you disprove the below facts (which you can't), you can't go on claiming in every other thread after today, that Lucifer created a mere universe (at least not Yahweh's creation)

Anyway, the Lucifer series, outright shows alternate realities, and an alternate version of a character named Cal:

Lucifer #37:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg

"Other universeS"

See, each mirror represents an entire universe. This is also confirmed when we see an alternate version of cal, two issues later in Lucifer #39:

http://i.imgur.com/95E4goS.jpg

--------------------------------

I decided to include other titles to strengthen my case:

Next we have Sandman (which is the most closely associated of the Vertigo titles, to the Lucifer series), depicting and referencing universeS:

Sandman #23, we see a reference to dimensionS:

http://i.imgur.com/1eFUXgw.jpg?1

Retold again in Death: At Death's Door:

http://i.imgur.com/J6VVfAC.jpg?1

Sandman #4, universeS:

http://i.imgur.com/mX7mrPd.jpg?1

Sandman #66, universeS:

http://i.imgur.com/5YKhmuQ.jpg?1

Sandman #67, realitIES:

http://i.imgur.com/EvquIUn.jpg?1

Absolute Sandman: Special Edition: Adjacent dimensionS:

http://i.imgur.com/hvpleT9.jpg?1

Or here, in Sandman #54, we literally see alternate universes:

http://i.imgur.com/AS1tgK3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vzVhYvb.jpg

Notice how the second scan says: Traveling from America to America (alternate Americas).

That's also evident when it's stated "worldS" (in this case, a reference to alternate universeS).

Note: Despite this, Lucifer when appearing in the Sandman series still calls it "The Universe" (in other words, the terms are interchangeable).

---------------------------------
3 quick examples, from other titles (who aren't that associated with the Lucifer series, but they're Vertigo nonetheless):

Hunter: Age of Magic #3, says:

http://i.imgur.com/DIK5N4L.jpg?1

"...one of the many worlds and dimensions".

Btw, the Gemworld is in a separate reality from that of mainstream Earth (let me know if you want the proof).

Also, i know for a fact that the term "dimension" is used to refer to a fully functional universe in the Tim Hunter-related comics (let me know if you want proof for that as well).

Yet, we also know that in Tim Hunter comics, all of creation is referred to as "The Universe" just like Yahweh's (again, let me know if you want the evidence). Btw, i also have scans from Books of Magic v1 depicting Lucifer on panel, and referencing him several times in v2. I already have those ready.

Anyway, Morrison's Doom Patrol depicts alternate realities (painting acting as a portal) - from issue #29:

http://i.imgur.com/0fW8DrC.jpg

Then:

http://i.imgur.com/Epivy2J.jpg?1

"...through into...our world" -- obviously confirms that it's an alternate world, considering they were on another Earth.

Yet, we also know that all of creation in Morrison's Doom Patrol run, is referred to as "The Universe", i have several examples, so let me know if you want them posted.

Hellblazer #249 (while it was published in 2008, this story actually involved one from the 90s with the Golden Boy which confirms the existence of alternate realities back then, so it counts):

http://i.imgur.com/s4UphpM.jpg

So ill stop here (i could go on if you want, though).

Originally posted by operator616
Right. Just to be clear, unless you disprove the below facts (which you can't), you can't go on claiming in every other thread after today, that Lucifer created a mere universe (at least not Yahweh's creation)

Anyway, the Lucifer series, outright shows alternate realities, and an alternate version of a character named Cal:

Lucifer #37:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg

"Other universeS"

See, each mirror represents an entire universe. This is also confirmed when we see an alternate version of cal, two issues later in Lucifer #39:

http://i.imgur.com/95E4goS.jpg

--------------------------------

I decided to include other titles to strengthen my case:

Next we have Sandman (which is the most closely associated of the Vertigo titles, to the Lucifer series), depicting and referencing universeS:

Sandman #23, we see a reference to dimensionS:

http://i.imgur.com/1eFUXgw.jpg?1

Retold again in Death: At Death's Door:

http://i.imgur.com/J6VVfAC.jpg?1

Sandman #4, universeS:

http://i.imgur.com/mX7mrPd.jpg?1

Sandman #66, universeS:

http://i.imgur.com/5YKhmuQ.jpg?1

Sandman #67, realitIES:

http://i.imgur.com/EvquIUn.jpg?1

Absolute Sandman: Special Edition: Adjacent dimensionS:

http://i.imgur.com/hvpleT9.jpg?1

Or here, in Sandman #54, we literally see alternate universes:

http://i.imgur.com/AS1tgK3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vzVhYvb.jpg

Notice how the second scan says: Traveling from America to America (alternate Americas).

That's also evident when it's stated "worldS" (in this case, a reference to alternate universeS).

Note: Despite this, Lucifer when appearing in the Sandman series still calls it "The Universe" (in other words, the terms are interchangeable).

---------------------------------
3 quick examples, from other titles (who aren't that associated with the Lucifer series, but they're Vertigo nonetheless):

Hunter: Age of Magic #3, says:

http://i.imgur.com/DIK5N4L.jpg?1

"...one of the many worlds and dimensions".

Btw, the Gemworld is in a separate reality from that of mainstream Earth (let me know if you want the proof).

Also, i know for a fact that the term "dimension" is used to refer to a fully functional universe in the Tim Hunter-related comics (let me know if you want proof for that as well).

Yet, we also know that in Tim Hunter comics, all of creation is referred to as "The Universe" just like Yahweh's (again, let me know if you want the evidence). Btw, i also have scans from Books of Magic v1 depicting Lucifer on panel, and referencing him several times in v2. I already have those ready.

Anyway, Morrison's Doom Patrol depicts alternate realities (painting acting as a portal) - from issue #29:

http://i.imgur.com/0fW8DrC.jpg

Then:

http://i.imgur.com/Epivy2J.jpg?1

"...through into...our world" -- obviously confirms that it's an alternate world, considering they were on another Earth.

Yet, we also know that all of creation in Morrison's Doom Patrol run, is referred to as "The Universe", i have several examples, so let me know if you want them posted.

Hellblazer #249 (while it was published in 2008, this story actually involved one from the 90s with the Golden Boy which confirms the existence of alternate realities back then, so it counts):

http://i.imgur.com/s4UphpM.jpg

So ill stop here (i could go on if you want, though).
Yet here we are near the end of the Lucifer series and Yahweh's creation is described as a universe :
http://s29.postimg.org/quhxaj5pv/3253973_presence_creation.jpg http://s29.postimg.org/v4wl64asz/God03.jpg
Yahweh, like his two idiot sons, is a moron. He doesn't even know the extent of his own creation!

ok, so to head off anymore of the garbage i can already see building up in this thread (the same garbage that has polluted several threads the last few months) i've asked for a mod ruling on the following--is vertigo to be considered a multiverse from now on, and his lucifer's creation ALSO to be viewed as a multiverse. opr has provided some great examples. if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, so to head off anymore of the garbage i can already see building up in this thread (the same garbage that has polluted several threads the last few months) i've asked for a mod ruling on the following--is vertigo to be considered a multiverse from now on, and his lucifer's creation ALSO to be viewed as a multiverse. opr has provided some great examples. if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.
Why are you running to mods? Why are you avoiding how their respective creations (Yahweh and Lucifer) are mentioned on panel?

For every instance of it being called a multiverse, there are MORE instances of it being called a universe.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, so to head off anymore of the garbage i can already see building up in this thread (the same garbage that has polluted several threads the last few months) i've asked for a mod ruling on the following--is vertigo to be considered a multiverse from now on, and his lucifer's creation ALSO to be viewed as a multiverse. opr has provided some great examples. if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet here we are near the end of the Lucifer series and Yahweh's creation is described as a universe :
http://s29.postimg.org/quhxaj5pv/3253973_presence_creation.jpg http://s29.postimg.org/v4wl64asz/God03.jpg
Yahweh, like his two idiot sons, is a moron. He doesn't even know the extent of his own creation! Originally posted by operator616
Note: Despite this, Lucifer when appearing in the Sandman series still calls it "The Universe" (in other words, the terms are interchangeable). Not. Hard. To. Understand.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not. Hard. To. Understand.
Yeah, it's very easy.

Potato != Potatoes

Universe != Multiverse no matter how hard the Vertigo fanboys try.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet here we are near the end of the Lucifer series and Yahweh's creation is described as a universe :
Yahweh, like his two idiot sons, is a moron. He doesn't even know the extent of his own creation!

First off, glad you conceded the point regarding Lucifer being > Endless which makes him >> MJJ.

Now that we got that out of the way....you do realize that your scan from Lucifer #68, shows us Yahweh holding all of creation in his hand, right? .....

You also completely ignored the point. Lucifer, in the same arc where alternate universes were referenced, still referred to the whole of creation as "the universe":

http://i.imgur.com/SpynKh3.jpg?2

"the whole thing, the universe"

Well, we know that "the whole thing = the totality of all the alternate universes --- the multiverse.

Notice this:

http://i.imgur.com/AulNDW0.jpg?1

"...in the universe"

a page later we learn that there are adjacent dimensionS (Scan already posted):

http://i.imgur.com/AulNDW0.jpg?1

So obviously, "the universe" in this case, is referred to as, the whole of creation - the multiverse.

Same thing goes to the other titles i posted (i can confirm it later on, if you wish, now i dont have time).

Originally posted by leonidas
if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.

Well yeah, i have more. Animal Man is another example, where alternate realities and alternate versions of a character are shown:

http://i.imgur.com/OO92xqi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k1UfjbJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0pAOKRn.jpg

(A reference to the "coma" back at the beginning of the run, confirming that was alternate reality Buddy)

That's from Peter Milligan's run, though Morrison also played a little with alternate realities but that was involved with the COIE, so meh.

Anyway, i avoided putting Animal Man since, while it's technically part of Vertigo, it's less associated with the Lucifer series, and more-so with Mainstream DCU.....but still, it counts, i suppose.

Ill wait for the mods, and see if what i posted is enough (it definitely should be).

Originally posted by operator616
First off, glad you conceded the point regarding Lucifer being > Endless which makes him >> MJJ.
I conceded no such thing. And even if I did, I've never been impressed with any of the Endless, so.......

As to the rest of your post, it changes nothing. Their creations have been called universes more times than they have multiverses.

Originally posted by zopzop

Universe = Multiverse
It could be. But you should see the hard time it's been for me to highlight that concerning Marvel.
In the DC world though this concept is understood and accepted easily it seems.

stoned

^ Read the thread carefully. I highly doubt anyone reasonable would side with zopzop here, because what he's saying is total and utter nonsense.

Originally posted by zopzop
I conceded no such thing. And even if I did, I've never been impressed with any of the Endless, so.......


Really? then why didn't you counter it? Coz ive been repeating this point time and time again, yet i never got a response.

So now your response is that you (who we all know to be a very big fan of the Vertigo characters, and doesn't always side against them just for the sake it) aren't impressed with them?

Well it doesn't really matter what you think, because they have proven feats.

Dream is a casual multiversal power, period. If you're gonna deny this, ill return with proof, and you'll be proven wrong yet again.

Death is a megaversal power, proven on panel as well. Don't try to deny this.

Yet, Lucifer is above Death, and dwarfs dream. It's that simple. Ive got all the scan ready. So you either ask me for proof, or stop making claims like these.

Originally posted by zopzop
As to the rest of your post, it changes nothing. Their creations have been called universes more times than they have multiverses.

Right. So i show you alternate realities being referenced/depicted across several Vertigo titles, and point out that the totality of creation is still referred to as "the Universe" ...yet, you return with the same point.

I mean, seriously, what's there to deny? If there are alternate universes and alternate versions of the characters depicted on panel, then how the hell does that not prove that it's a multiverse? ......Please, take a minute and think about what you're saying here, because it's complete nonsense.

Anyway, im done arguing with you regarding this particular point. I think you and i both know very well that you were proven wrong here, but you can't admit that because you just can't stop with this hatred toward Lucifer and Vertigo characters in general.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why are you running to mods? Why are you avoiding how their respective creations (Yahweh and Lucifer) are mentioned on panel?

For every instance of it being called a multiverse, there are MORE instances of it being called a universe.

perhaps for lucifer, NOT for the vertigoverse however. and i find it ironic that you, of all people, are criticizing ANYONE for ignoring on-panel proof of ANYTHING, considering it is was both said and SHOWN ON PANEL that the lucifer-verse was a multiverse. and lol at running to the mods. i'm just sick and f****** tired of reading over the same tired and idiotic argument you bring up in every thread where lucifer comes up. your hatred for the character is more than a little disturbing and is clearly affecting your reason.

Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps for lucifer, NOT for the vertigoverse however. and i find it ironic that you, of all people, are criticizing ANYONE for ignoring on-panel proof of ANYTHING, considering it is was both said and SHOWN ON PANEL that the lucifer-verse was a multiverse. and lol at running to the mods. i'm just sick and f****** tired of reading over the same tired and idiotic argument you bring up in every thread where lucifer comes up. your hatred for the character is more than a little disturbing and is clearly affecting your reason.
For phucks sake the goddamn writer himself can't decide if it's a universe or multiverse and the word UNIVERSE is used MORE times than MULTIVERSE. By far.

So stop crying. You're an adult aren't you? Act like one.

Zopzop, stop the trolling. You are not contributing to this thread. You are derailing it by doubling down on your "claims".

Originally posted by Badabing
Zopzop, stop the trolling. You are not contributing to this thread. You are derailing it by doubling down on your "claims".
How am I trolling? Look what "God" herself says in the next to last issue of the Lucifer series :
Her/Yahweh's Creation is a goddman UNIVERSE
http://s29.postimg.org/ldf6w90kz/universe.jpg
What's so hard to understand?

The gig is up, Zop. We know you're just playing around.

childish would be starting a flamewar with you. childish is spouting the same nonsense over and over in the face of overwhelming on panel proof. childish is acting like a troll in every lucifer thread that gets opened! then, cuz i'm tired of reading your crap, you have the audacity to tell ME i ignore on panel proof when you've ignored an entire COMPANY's consistent portrayal. and criticizing someone for acting childish while posting that cute little phrase under your sig kinda weakens your high-horse stance btw... lol

the adult thing would be to admit you're wrong in the face of overwhelming proof and move on bro.

Originally posted by leonidas


childish would be starting a flamewar with you. childish is spouting the same nonsense over and over in the face of overwhelming on panel proof. childish is acting like a troll in every lucifer thread that gets opened! then, cuz i'm tired of reading your crap, you have the audacity to tell ME i ignore on panel proof when you've ignored an entire COMPANY's consistent portrayal. and criticizing someone for acting childish while posting that cute little phrase under your sig kinda weakens your high-horse stance btw... lol

the adult thing would be to admit you're wrong in the face of overwhelming proof and move on bro.
I just posted a scan from the next to final issue of Lucifer (2006?) where God mentions her (merged?) Creation was a UNIVERSE. Do you not get it? She talks about letting herself go and becoming one with the ..............UNIVERSE. I kindly provided the scan.

This piggybacks with the previous scans of Elaine calling Yahweh's creation a universe.

and? no one has EVER said the term universe and multiverse weren't used interchangeably. you don't NEED that scan to know vertigo was a multiverse when you've been shown OVER AND OVER AGAIN on panel proof that it is. that one scan does NOT somehow overrule all the other dozens of scans from a variety of sources INCLUDING lucifer, that show incontrovertibly that vertigo IS a multiverse.

really, what is so hard for YOU to understand?

Originally posted by operator616

^ Read the thread carefully.
tbh, It's a cross company match, and I don't really do those. It does include one of my fav cats from Marvel so I skim these threads just to add info concerning said cat if needed. But I'll never seriously give an opinion who wins. It's two different worlds with established understandings that contradict each other.

Anyway, I was commenting off-topically on the universe = multiverse specific solely.
My comment bared no relevance on the battle btw, and didn't dispute your post.

Originally posted by leonidas
and? no one has EVER said the term universe and multiverse weren't used interchangeably. you don't NEED that scan to know vertigo was a multiverse when you've been shown OVER AND OVER AGAIN on panel proof that it is. that one scan does NOT somehow overrule all the other dozens of scans from a variety of sources INCLUDING lucifer, that show incontrovertibly that vertigo IS a multiverse.

really, what is so hard for YOU to understand?

Then our definition of "multiverse" don't mesh up.

A multiverse is an infinite series of alternate universes. Complete universes. Complete universes each with their own sets of gods/abstracts/pocket dimenions (hells, heavens, etc...).

That's a multiverse.

Elaine, who was GOD at that point, said it herself. She was letting herself go to merge with her creation................the UNIVERSE.

The End.

your idea of multiverse is incorrect, but even using your OWN definition, the vertigo-verse is definitively a mutliverse as i showed when i showed the sandman scans around boss smiley and prez. prez travels from earth to earth wandering across all the alternate versions of america. we also saw an alternate character in the lucifer-verse which you've been shown several times. at best you can say there is some inconsistency with regards to the lucifer-verse. if you want to say its a universe because that was the word that described it often (creation was also used often) and ignore what was shown, that's on you, but do not try and pretend an equally strong case can be made for it being shown as a multiverse--via on panel proof AND implied proofs.

there is NO lack of consistency with regards to the vertigo-verse though. your one scan is the only thing. dozens of other scans, across various titles (sandman dedicated an entire 10-12 story ARC around the various alternate universes) depict it as a multiverse. forgetting that it has also interacted with dc proper. as regards the vertigo-verse YOU HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON. zero. one scan does NOT outweigh entire arcs of proof. and you know it.

Originally posted by leonidas
your idea of multiverse is incorrect, but even using your OWN definition, the vertigo-verse is definitively a mutliverse as i showed when i showed the sandman scans around boss smiley and prez. prez travels from earth to earth wandering across all the alternate versions of america. we also saw an alternate character in the lucifer-verse which you've been shown several times. at best you can say there is some inconsistency with regards to the lucifer-verse. if you want to say its a universe because that was the word that described it often (creation was also used often) and ignore what was shown, that's on you, but do not try and pretend an equally strong case can be made for it being shown as a multiverse--via on panel proof AND implied proofs.

there is NO lack of consistency with regards to the vertigo-verse though. your one scan is the only thing. dozens of other scans, across various titles (sandman dedicated an entire 10-12 story ARC around the various alternate universes) depict it as a multiverse. forgetting that it has also interacted with dc proper. as regards the vertigo-verse YOU HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON. zero. one scan does NOT outweigh entire arcs of proof. and you know it.
Elaine MERGED the three creations into ONE.
http://s23.postimg.org/hpxifagzr/3in1.jpg

Guess what that creation was called by her? A UNIVERSE. She would know because SHE MERGED THEM. And then she let her consciousness expand to fill it.................a UNIVERSE :
http://s4.postimg.org/w6zsy9bu1/universe.jpg

This was as recently as 2006.

And the funny thing about Lucifer's creation, that he needed his brother's power for anyway, was that it wasn't even complete. There was afterlife, no immortals, etc....
http://s15.postimg.org/9rkje8847/no_immortals_or_angels_1.jpg http://s15.postimg.org/hvsniyujb/no_immortals_or_angels11.jpg

Yet people were claiming it was EQUAL to Yahweh's universe.

Originally posted by zopzop
So stop crying. You're an adult aren't you? Act like one.

Irony at its finest.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Means nothing against MJJ who would do the same effortlesly.
So you're telling me that Jaspers can kill gods in a depowered state? Scans?

Originally posted by CortSether
Are all Vertigo fans as far up their ass as you?
Not as far up as fans of a certain loser Cthulhu rip-off from Marvel.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet people were claiming it was EQUAL to Yahweh's universe.
Because it was, you jackass.

Anyways, since Thanos only absorbed a universe with the power of the HoTU, he's clearly a universal power going by your awful logic.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Because it was, you jackass.

Except it wasn't. No afterlife, no immortals/angels, etc..

That right there proves it wasn't equal to Yahweh's creation.

Originally posted by zopzop
Except it wasn't. No afterlife, no immortals/angels, etc..

That right there proves it wasn't equal to Yahweh's creation.
Identical twins aren't identical, going by this silly logic. Since in practically every case, there is one small feature which is slightly different for one twin or the other.

Also, the Ultimateverse isn't equal to the 616verse in magnitude as well. Since it has an IG in its Negative Zone, while the 616-NZ doesn't.

Your awful logic comes back to bite you in the ass again.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Identical twins aren't identical, going by this silly logic. Since in practically every case, there is one small feature which is slightly different for one twin or the other.

Also, the Ultimateverse isn't equal to the 616verse in magnitude as well. Since it has an IG in its Negative Zone, while the 616-NZ doesn't.

Your awful logic comes back to bite you in the ass again.
But it isn't. The Ultraverse doesn't have abstracts like Eternity does it? It doesn't have the Negative Zone, the Quantum Zone, the Darkforce Universe, etc... that make up 616 and it's multiverse. These aren't "slight" differences. Thank you for proving my point.

Lucifer's creation didn't have the afterlife, didn't have immortals/angels, etc.. Again, these are not "slight" differences.

Originally posted by zopzop
But it isn't. The Ultraverse doesn't have abstracts like Eternity does it? It doesn't have the Negative Zone, the Quantum Zone, the Darkforce Universe, etc... that make up 616 and it's multiverse. These aren't "slight" differences. Thank you for proving my point.

Lucifer's creation didn't have the afterlife, didn't have immortals/angels, etc.. Again, these are not "slight" differences.
Is it, or is it not an alternate version of 616? If it is, then that makes it equal to the 616-reality in terms of its cosmological magnitude.

It didn't have immortal because Lucifer forcefully banished them from Creation. Though semi-conceptual beings like the Sisters of Mercy(not that I expect you to have even the slightest clue about them) count as such.

It didn't have an afterlife because Lucifer didn't consider it necessary. Heck, iirc Elaine herself did away with the concept of afterlife after Master Rudd explained to her to the unfairness of infinite torment for a finite sin in Hell.

Your strawmans don't take away from the fact that sans the afterlife conundrum, the whole of Luciferverse was based on Yahweh's original creation, and since the original creation is a confirmed multiverse, so is Lucifer's.

Originally posted by zopzop
Elaine MERGED the three creations into ONE.
Guess what that creation was called by her? A UNIVERSE.

Not sure what are you trying to prove here, since it's been pointed out to you several times that Vertigo uses the terms interchangeably. Because unless you disprove this, you don't even have a point to begin with, by merely saying that it's called "a universe".

Originally posted by Epicurus

Thanos only absorbed a universe with the power of the HoTU,
I disagree.
Originally posted by Epicurus

Is it, or is it not an alternate version of 616?
The Ultraverse is actually a separate Multiverse: (outside Eternity/infinity)

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/17989721_Ultraverse_Multiverse.jpg

The 616 IG power retconned this multiverse the way Crisis on Infinite Earths did for DC.
616 IG power simultaneously fixed the Prime mainstream multiverse too which it had inadvertently merged with the Ultraverse.

The extra info is for the public KK.

Yeppers

Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.
I don't care. Thanos' power clearly surpassed that of multiversal entities, no doubt about that, but on panel we only saw one universe being absorbed.
Originally posted by Mr Master

The Ultraverse is actually a separate Multiverse: (outside Eternity/infinity)

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/17989721_Ultraverse_Multiverse.jpg

The 616 IG power retconned this multiverse the way Crisis on Infinite Earths did for DC.
616 IG power simultaneously fixed the Prime mainstream multiverse too which it had inadvertently merged with the Ultraverse.

The extra info is for the public KK.
I am talking about the Ultimateverse. Not Ultraverse. I see that I overlooked flopflop misconstruing my words in his previous post, but with the Ultimate universe my point stands vindicated.

Bump

'ol scratch still wins.

Wow, operator OWNED zopzop sooo bad lol.
5uRN7iJ5CqQ

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Wow, operator OWNED zopzop sooo bad lol.
5uRN7iJ5CqQ

word, that was ugly lol. OPR da gawd.