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Who would win in a battle 2 the death?
Both of the combatants are bloodlusted, morals are OFF
Setting: Grassy Plain

Qui Gon stomps.

I go with Fisto. They're both very good, Fisto's younger, and he uses the force more iirc.

Going with Qui-Gon simply because he's Liam Neeson.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Going with Qui-Gon simply because he's Liam Neeson.

http://tadbitsketchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/image.png

Kit. Better at everything.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kit. Better at everything.

Proof.

The Cestus Deception.

Which explicitly puts him around or slightly above AOTC Obi-Wan. QGJ is better than that.

Around AotC Obi-Wan? Did you even read the book?

I'm gonna go with QGJ. Kit Fisto's defeat over Grievous Lite, or being a notch above ~AotC Obi-Wan, who's never proven himself to be particularly elite, don't really impress me all that much, and his low showings, such as being defeated by a still pretty green Ventress, and getting annihilated by Sidious, don't really portray him in the greatest light.

QGJ by comparison has been favourably compared to the likes of Anoon Bondara and Mace Windu on numerous occasions in ability with a lightsaber, was considered to be the greatest student of an unnamed lightsaber practitioner in over 400 years of teaching, seemed to generally be held in higher esteem and accomplished greater things, namely the Force Ghost trick. There's also no real shame in losing to Maul.

He strikes me as all around being more impressive, and is slightly underrated imo.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Around AotC Obi-Wan? Did you even read the book?

Yes. Several times. In fact, Obi-Wan pretty much places Fisto on a pedestal, but the guy loses handily to Ventress. Meanwhile, Qui-Gon Jinn sparred with Maul for several minutes before biting the dust, and was considered a peer for Mace Windu or thereabouts. This places him well above Kit "I can kill a non-lethal robot with precog and some mooks" Fisto.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes. Several times. In fact, Obi-Wan pretty much places Fisto on a pedestal, but the guy loses handily to Ventress. Meanwhile, Qui-Gon Jinn sparred with Maul for several minutes before biting the dust, and was considered a peer for Mace Windu or thereabouts. This places him well above Kit "I can kill a non-lethal robot with precog and some mooks" Fisto.

Where is it stated Qui-Gon was considered equal to Mace Windu?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Where is it stated Qui-Gon was considered equal to Mace Windu?

Equal to is misleading. A peer of, or comparative to is more appropriate. Some TPM novelization or supplemental material many years ago. Initially, I didn't approve of the comparison either.

In any case, QGJ did better against Maul than Anoon did, and much better than Fisto did against Ventress. A relatively newbie Ventress at that.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes. Several times.
Then why do I need to refresh your memory?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In fact, Obi-Wan pretty much places Fisto on a pedestal,
Kenobi himself was musing inferiority to Kit; not only that, but Kit was restraining himself.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
but the guy loses handily to Ventress.
Let us consider the circumstances. Kit had just fought through an army alongside Obi-Wan, unarmed, giving time for Asajj to study his technique - which she could capitalize on because her chosen form works well against his.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Meanwhile, Qui-Gon Jinn sparred with Maul for several minutes before biting the dust,
LOL. Is this your argument? The combined might of Jinn and Kenobi were inferior to Maul; he was driving them to a location of his own choice.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and was considered a peer for Mace Windu or thereabouts
False. If not, provide the source.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Then why do I need to refresh your memory?

When have you? You haven't posted a single phrase or excerpt from the book, or directly referenced anything in our discussion, merely using the book itself as some kind of self-evident source.



Kit Fisto had to restrain himself when they were mock fighting using the light whip, because Kit didn't want to kill Kenobi and vice versa. He's also stated to be a better H2H fighter than Kenobi when they are fighting Ventress' mooks, clearing the way to her faster. Then she puts him on his ass and almost murders Kenobi. And this is all about six months after AOTC.



Army? It was like half a dozen mooks of no consequence. None are Force sensitive, and I believe it even has a line about how they are throwing their lives away because they are young thug types.

Also, points to Asajj for Sherlock scanning his fighting style (Form 1, the most basic of styles) in a half minute or less. I think it even talks in this about her hiding her presence from both using the Force and being able to 'dance between rain drops on good days'.



Pretty much Maul set the pacing and drove the location to one that best suited him. He is the superior fighter. But Maul didn't murder Jinn in seconds, and Fisto's fight against the inferior Ventress was even less impressive. Let's look at this again:

Kit Fisto has defeated:

1. A JK bot, a non-lethal bot with precog which was found out to largely be a red herring.
2. Some mooks of no value.
3. Lost to Ventress (that doesn't count).
4. Had a good showing against non-Force sensitive Grievous.



I looked it up. Power of the Jedi sourcebook:

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his equally skilled contemporaries; notably Mace Windu. Indeed it was said that he was the only Jedi apart from his own Master, Dooku and Grand Master Yoda, who was able to fight Windu as an equal.

Do you have a page number for that, Moose? That quote has been oft-declared but never provided for years. I'd like to personally verify it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When have you? You haven't posted a single phrase or excerpt from the book, or directly referenced anything in our discussion, merely using the book itself as some kind of self-evident source.
I never said I had, only that I will have to, since most, if not all, of your recollection of the book appears wrong.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kit Fisto had to restrain himself when they were mock fighting using the light whip, because Kit didn't want to kill Kenobi and vice versa. He's also stated to be a better H2H fighter than Kenobi when they are fighting Ventress' mooks, clearing the way to her faster. Then she puts him on his ass and almost murders Kenobi. And this is all about six months after AOTC.
I don't even know what this is, but it seems as if you're saying Kit is Kenobi's better.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Army? It was like half a dozen mooks of no consequence. None are Force sensitive, and I believe it even has a line about how they are throwing their lives away because they are young thug types.
None of this refutes my point.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, points to Asajj for Sherlock scanning his fighting style (Form 1, the most basic of styles) in a half minute or less. I think it even talks in this about her hiding her presence from both using the Force and being able to 'dance between rain drops on good days'.
This qualifies as a red herring. Either address my point or don't address it at all.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But Maul didn't murder Jinn in seconds,
So? Jinn not losing to Maul in ''seconds'' does nothing to prove your point when Kit would not lose to Maul in ''seconds'' either.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I looked it up. Power of the Jedi sourcebook:

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his equally skilled contemporaries; notably Mace Windu. Indeed it was said that he was the only Jedi apart from his own Master, Dooku and Grand Master Yoda, who was able to fight Windu as an equal.
Provide a page number, because Jinn has no entry in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook that I'm aware.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

None of this refutes my point. lol

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Do you have a page number for that, Moose? That quote has been oft-declared but never provided for years. I'd like to personally verify it.
The quote provided is the exact same that appears in Jinn's wiki article. More than that, I have read just about every appearance that Jinn has, including the source in question, but have never seen such a statement. It's almost certainly false.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never said I had, only that I will have to, since most, if not all, of your recollection of the book appears wrong.

Feel free to scan or whatever. You haven't done any direct refuting at this point, whereas I have referenced several things from the book itself. In fact, before I started using it as a reference recently, people in this sub-forum hadn't shown any knowledge of it. Certainly not to the extent which I demonstrated.



This fight is a big plot point in the book, so if you don't remember it or don't know what it is, your knowledge of the book seems really suspicious.



You grossly exaggerated Kit's showing against Ventress' mooks, so yes, it does refute your point.



Don't make me laugh.



But nothing you've said demonstrates Fisto is conclusively higher than QGJ. QGJ is a Jedi Master, renowned for his saber mastery (which is what got Dooku's attention in the first place), who was able to expend a tremendous amount of energy at Maul and last longer against a superior Sith (again, Maul) then Fisto did against a neophyte dark jedi (Ventress). About the only feat I can give Fisto of note is his generous showing against Grievous, who again, isn't a Force sensitive and typically has only killed Jedi with goons, ambush tactics, or extreme fortune.



You mean he doesn't have a chapter to himself on the Wookiepedia page.

I don't have the Sourcebook at work. I will render what I can find later. In any case, concentrate on your defense of Fisto, because your "NUH UH" routine coupled with a glaring lack of The Cestus Deception knowledge isn't winning you any points.

--

EDIT: Tempest, it might even be in Mace's bio.

^ If your talking about the eu section of bios on the official site, they were all taken down a few years ago.

If you're referencing Kit's and Kenobi's fight with Asajj, then it's a strawman argument as I was talking about Kit's sparring session with Kenobi.



Yes, Fisto, when restraining his abilities, is better than AotC Kenobi, and not ''around'' AotC Kenobi, as you claimed.


The text outright states that the X'Ting came on them ''in waves'', so no, not really.


It was a red herring. I pointed out that Asajj's form is ideal against Kit's which you ignored in your reply.


LOL. Kit is renowned for his dueling skill as well. In fact, Kit is one of the most skilled duelists in the Order.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Kit%20Fisto/Lightsaber%20skill/lightsabermasters_zpsfdd275b4.png

More than that, Kit has casually disposed of two MagnaGuards in a trilogy where, from what I recall, three of them posed a challenge to RotS Kenobi.



And when have we ever seen Jinn exercise Force speed like this?



Kit is telekinetically more powerful as well.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Kit%20Fisto/TK/2780947-new_picture__8__zps94eb216a.jpg

Yes, Kit would beat Jinn. He has fought Asajj evenly with a form not ideal to fight her, he has beaten Grievous, he has beaten two MagnaGuards, he has created multiple afterglows, and he has been called one of the best duelists in the Order.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you're referencing Kit's and Kenobi's fight with Asajj, then it's a strawman argument as I was talking about Kit's sparring session with Kenobi.

I was specifically referencing the mock fight they have to convince the locals that the Confederates are their enemies, where Kit Fisto plays the 'dark jedi' and uses a light whip, but manages to thankfully not hurt Kenobi despite only using it just before the fight.

How could you not know if you read the book?



He's not that far above. The distance between Kenobi, a peer, and say, Dooku or Mace Windu is huge. Let's put it into perspective:

Ventress > AOTC Obi
Ventress > Kit Fisto
Dooku/Mace/Anakin > Ventress



You have a more accurate number? I could make 'waves' out of 10-20 guys, and Fisto didn't fight them all. In any case, they are non-Force sensitive mooks of the lowest order, so this is quite the red herring. In The Approaching Storm, newbies Anakin and Barriss non-lethally defend against armies with Obi and Luminara.

Can they all defeat Qui-Gon too?



So let me make sure I understand you:

Relative Force newbie and Dark Jedi Asajj Ventress, with a short window of observation, identified and destroyed his fighting style and you think Qui-Gon Jinn, trained for years under the definitive Makashi master, will somehow be weaker than her?

K.



Master of Form I.

The most basic, pre-Makashi style which was not the refinement of saber-to-saber combat, stresses disarming people, and has never really allowed him to defeat anyone of serious value?

K.



When? Also, Kenobi fended off several in tight spots with Grievous also in the works in TCW. They are extremely unreliable benchmarks at best.



That's not at all subjective and hyperbolic.

When has Kit Fisto shown actual Force-speed on screen, like QGJ did explicitly in TPM?



Kenobi could do that too.

Am I to believe that Qui-Gon, Jedi Council material and long time Jedi Master, is unable to? Why isn't Kit Fisto serving on the Council in TPM then?



Absolute bollocks. He did not fight evenly with her; she beat his ass. His form is primitive and even as a master of it, he is outshined.



Non-precog using Grievous, who has no TK.



Holy father, two? Hold me back.



Padawan Barriss Offee in The Approaching Storm makes a solid ring of light using her saber while doing a compass dance for natives.

Offee > Qui-Gon Jinn?



Well after Qui-Gon was dead, and nowhere near the capability of Obi, Anakin, Maul, or anyone of merit.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-33195-Jon-Snow-laughing-gif-Imgur-85HI.gif

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Feel free to scan or whatever. You haven't done any direct refuting at this point, whereas I have referenced several things from the book itself. In fact, before I started using it as a reference recently, people in this sub-forum hadn't shown any knowledge of it. Certainly not to the extent which I demonstrated.



This fight is a big plot point in the book, so if you don't remember it or don't know what it is, your knowledge of the book seems really suspicious.



You grossly exaggerated Kit's showing against Ventress' mooks, so yes, it does refute your point.



Don't make me laugh.



But nothing you've said demonstrates Fisto is conclusively higher than QGJ. QGJ is a Jedi Master, renowned for his saber mastery (which is what got Dooku's attention in the first place), who was able to expend a tremendous amount of energy at Maul and last longer against a superior Sith (again, Maul) then Fisto did against a neophyte dark jedi (Ventress). About the only feat I can give Fisto of note is his generous showing against Grievous, who again, isn't a Force sensitive and typically has only killed Jedi with goons, ambush tactics, or extreme fortune.



You mean he doesn't have a chapter to himself on the Wookiepedia page.

I don't have the Sourcebook at work. I will render what I can find later. In any case, concentrate on your defense of Fisto, because your "NUH UH" routine coupled with a glaring lack of The Cestus Deception knowledge isn't winning you any points.

--

EDIT: Tempest, it might even be in Mace's bio.

No bro. I have scanned every source that claims that, and found nothing because I used to say the exact same thing. Seems like it was fabricated.

A Stark does not bro a Lannister.

You could be right. I will check the sourcebook tonight to lay it to rest.

Hrm, so I am pretty sure I had the Power of the Jedi sourcebook at some point (I remembered the cover clearly) but I can't find it at the moment. I've even done a full PC search for it, and I normally wouldn't waste that kind of time for anything.

However, the Jedi Academy Training Manual has this on Page 94:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Captureanoon_zpsd50a1fed.jpg

This reaffirms the idea that Qui-Gon is elite of the Order and considered to be a peer of Mace if not his direct equal. Kit Fisto is not mentioned anywhere.

--

Unrelated but also interesting, the book confirms that Vodo has been beaten by Kun mulitple times before the events of the comic, and reaffirms the Sith Lord as his greatest apprentice.

"Such as Qui-Gon Jiin and even Mace Windu" just suggests Mace>Qui-Gon>Bondara

Also sparring does not mean sparring evenly. Hell Saesee Tiin and Quinlan Vos sparred with Mace.

We all agree that Mace Windu is a prodigy all on his own, and I would never argue Qui-Gon could defeat him in normal circumstances.

However...

Jinn is considered to be a superior duelist above Anoon and everyone else in the Order, including Kit Fisto. Even Cin Drallig isn't given such laurels.

So my evidence is still valid.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
We all agree that Mace Windu is a prodigy all on his own, and I would never argue Qui-Gon could defeat him in normal circumstances.

However...

Jinn is considered to be a superior duelist above Anoon and everyone else in the Order, including Kit Fisto. Even Cin Drallig isn't given such laurels.

So my evidence is still valid.

Jinn was around when Fisto wasn't yet a master, let alone one of the better combatants on the council.


That's one thing about Qui-Gon being one of the best- most of the best duelists if the Clone War were young and inexperienced then, and .

Windu was great even at the time, but he did not yet invent Vaapad, meaning he's a nice big step down from his Sidious-fighting self. Fisto, Kenobi, Skywalker, Shaak Ti, Mundi, all of 'em were younger and weaker, I don't think a single one of those was even a master yet, and maybe not even knights.


Or to put it another way, Qui-Gon was one of the best at a time when the Jedi, being largely at peace, had only a smaller number of strong duelists. Kit Fisto came at the time of a whole wave of new combat prodigies who honed their skill in a war, and where the best of the old guard sharpened their skills more. One of the best of the Clone Wars is higher praise than one of the best a decade or so before.

Going to respond to that huge pile of shit later, SM.

Originally posted by Q99
Windu was great even at the time, but he did not yet invent Vaapad,
Not true. In Shatterpoint, that I remember, Mace commented on Depa's mastery of Vaapad that she displayed when they had fought Akk Dogs, referring to the Emissaries to Malastare arc in Republic which took place around TPM.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


Not true. In Shatterpoint, that I remember, Mace commented on Depa's mastery of Vaapad that she displayed when they had fought Akk Dogs, referring to the Emissaries to Malastare arc in Republic which took place around TPM.


Conceeded.


I will say he didn't *perfect* it, though, which iirc happened late in the CW.

Not sure about that.

Originally posted by Q99
Jinn was around when Fisto wasn't yet a master, let alone one of the better combatants on the council.


Qui-Gon wasn't in his prime either at TPM time. He was past his prime. (TPM Novel).


Originally posted by Q99
That's one thing about Qui-Gon being one of the best- most of the best duelists if the Clone War were young and inexperienced then, and .


Or to put it another way, Qui-Gon was one of the best at a time when the Jedi, being largely at peace, had only a smaller number of strong duelists. Kit Fisto came at the time of a whole wave of new combat prodigies who honed their skill in a war, and where the best of the old guard sharpened their skills more. One of the best of the Clone Wars is higher praise than one of the best a decade or so before.


There still were great elite duelists at the time (amongst the best of all time) like Anoon, Dooku, Windu. And Qui-Gon was considered in the elite. He was even the best swordsman his Lightsaber instructor had taught in hundreds of years (TPM novel).

You seem to place far too much significance on forms and nexuses. Why don't you just go and marry a nexus and cheat on her with Makashi you gigantic whore!

Why don't you go **** yourself?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Qui-Gon wasn't in his prime either at TPM time. He was past his prime. (TPM Novel).

Yes, but he was closer to it than Fisto was.

And it's quite possible prime Qui-gon might beat prime Fisto, but the Qui-gon we saw I think doesn't hold the edge.




Sure, I'm not saying they weren't, but the ones who lived got even stronger (Dooku says he got better as a Sith, Windu certainly improved). And multiple Jedi, including Fisto, get called out as being incredibly exceptional.


I'm of the opinion that the good duelists of the war are simply more battle-harded, the new generation has a few more talented individuals, and they're a little more skilled on average as a result- Kenobi is certainly better than Qui-gon by the end.


Or to put it another way- The Jedi went from having a few at Qui-gon level, him and Anoon, to having a few more at Qui-gon level and a few above it.

Originally posted by Q99
Jinn was around when Fisto wasn't yet a master, let alone one of the better combatants on the council.


That's one thing about Qui-Gon being one of the best- most of the best duelists if the Clone War were young and inexperienced then, and .

Windu was great even at the time, but he did not yet invent Vaapad, meaning he's a nice big step down from his Sidious-fighting self. Fisto, Kenobi, Skywalker, Shaak Ti, Mundi, all of 'em were younger and weaker, I don't think a single one of those was even a master yet, and maybe not even knights.


Or to put it another way, Qui-Gon was one of the best at a time when the Jedi, being largely at peace, had only a smaller number of strong duelists. Kit Fisto came at the time of a whole wave of new combat prodigies who honed their skill in a war, and where the best of the old guard sharpened their skills more. One of the best of the Clone Wars is higher praise than one of the best a decade or so before.

The difference is that QGJ is more firmly established to be one of the true elite of his time, whereas Kit Fisto is only ever vaguely referred to as one of the best, and loses to a green Ventress and gets demolished by Sidious, and his feats aren't really all that impressive.

I don't think your info is that accurate either, and I think you give way too much credit to the Clone Wars, which wasn't very duelling oriented anyway.

Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, old-Grievous, Ventress, Anoon Bondara, QGJ, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, and Maul are all firmly above the likes of Kit Fisto, Shaak Ti, Mundi, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin etc., some more significantly than others obviously.

On the flip side, he does quite well against General Grievous, which is nothing to laugh about, and practically anyone will be demolished by Sidious, with just a few exceptions, and Windu only brought him alone because he was very strong.




Not too much- well, outside of the ones who bumped into Ventress, Grievous, and Maul all the time like Kenobi- but it's still heavy, heavy combat. And there's still a number of opportunities to face dueling opponents like Magnadroids, and the Nikto clone army the CIS made once (the Jedi kept it bottled up on one planet, but it took multiple months of combat to prevail against them).




See, I wouldn't agree with that in Annon's case. Anoon got tooled by Maul, while later Kenobi does well against him, and Kenobi doesn't perform *that* much different than the masters in your second list against most foes.

Anoon is, if anything, an example of what I'm talking about. His fight with Maul wasn't even all that impressive or close, I very much would expect "Killed a dozen Magnadroids at once Shaak Ti" or "Was winning against Grievous Kit Fisto" to give Maul a superior fight.

Originally posted by Q99


Yes, but he was closer to it than Fisto was.

And it's quite possible prime Qui-gon might beat prime Fisto, but the Qui-gon we saw I think doesn't hold the edge.




Sure, I'm not saying they weren't, but the ones who lived got even stronger (Dooku says he got better as a Sith, Windu certainly improved). And multiple Jedi, including Fisto, get called out as being incredibly exceptional.


I'm of the opinion that the good duelists of the war are simply more battle-harded, the new generation has a few more talented individuals, and they're a little more skilled on average as a result- Kenobi is certainly better than Qui-gon by the end.


Or to put it another way- The Jedi went from having a few at Qui-gon level, him and Anoon, to having a few more at Qui-gon level and a few above it.

But you have no proof. Like it or not there are great lengths made about Anoon Bondara for example being truly great in the grand scheme of things, a contemporary of Windu etc and QGJ is right in that discussion.

The same can not be said about Kit Fisto during the CW, who doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Windu when you compare their performances against Sids.

Originally posted by Q99
On the flip side, he does quite well against General Grievous, which is nothing to laugh about,

Grievous Lite, not old-Grievous, which is a huge difference.



Not like those three were. I think there are a fair few that would perform closer to Mace than to Kit against Sidious.



Zone Kenobi =/= TPM Kenobi.

Anoon, as well as QGJ, were both clearly outclassed by Maul, who's obv just that damn good, but still put up a fight. Still not as bad as getting absolutely annihilated by Sids imo, or losing to a green Ventress.



It's hard to compare those feats, but at the very least Anoon and QGJ being peers of Mace Windu, and yet being outclassed by Maul, are compatible. Kit being absolutely demolished by Sids is not compatible with him being a peer of Windu's, as the others are.

Here's how I would sum up my thoughts:

1. As a low showing, Kit's performance against Sids <<< QGJ's performance against Maul.

2. There is actually a strong case to be made that QGJ is a genuine peer of Mace's, whereas the fight against Sidious if anything proves that Kit Fisto is not even close.

3. I don't think a strong case can be made that RotS Mace is all that much greater than TPM Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I was confused because your reference had nothing to do with my point.

It's the only time in the book that Kenobi and Fisto are directly contrasted in deed. So it's entirely relevant. Your glaring ignorance of it makes me wonder how much of the book you read, if any at all.



And how did you infer this? AoTC Kenobi was holding back as well. It was a non-lethal mock battle designed to fool the locals into thinking that the Sith/Confederacy was their enemy and the Republic was their friend.



Then the point is moot.



But it doesn't, because the young stupid untrained non-Force sensitive thugs he takes out barely do anything. Fisto wasn't winded from the weaksauce combat; Jedi spar and duel from children through adulthood, and he's earlier on noted as having incredible stamina and endurance, able to maintain perfect balance on his haunches for an hour plus without faltering.

If anything, they provided a quick warm up for him and Ventress KO'd him immediately after passively watching.

Ventress >> Kit Fisto.



"Ventress is more skilled than Jinn"

http://chan.catiewayne.com/m/src/134912592863.gif

So ****ing baseless.

Also, Qui-Gon Jinn's master practiced Makashi and all but perfected it. You think Qui-Gon remained completely ignorant of the style throughout his padawan-ship?

Anything else you'd like to assert without proof?



It's the bloody truth. Form I is the most basic, primal forms, developed well before saber to saber dueling was common. Fisto's adhering to it is an anachronism and it didn't help him against Force neophyte Ventress or anyone else, except for Grievous the Jobber, who goes from one-man murdering the Jedi in early EU to some Snidley Whiplash expy of no note whatsoever.



K.

Shaak Ti can kill Magnaguards. Anakin and Obi-Wan murder them without breaking a sweat.

Can they all defeat Jinn?

You aren't building a case; you're pointing to various unrelated feats and then saying your case is evident. Learn how 2 debate.



I did, yes. Do you read what I post at all? I've indicated instances from a work you claim to have read but remain strangely uneducated about, and I've provided a source quote for an assertion I made about Jinn's relative abilities. You've used hyperbole, baseless assertions, and one-line refutations and somehow maintain that your argument is more sound.

Baffling.



Relevance? What Force user of any merit has Fisto slain or defeated?

Wait for it.

None.



No, they both moved the same speed. When the Force speed was used, they ran side by side. Also, Kenobi's rage!speed is not itself indicative of his normal dueling speed. Qui-Gon Jinn dueled much better than Kenobi by a longshot. I reviewed the battle moment by moment with I think KT very recently. Kenobi didn't do anything of note until Jinn was dead and he was giving in to his rage.



Obi-Wan held the Nautolan in high esteem for many things; his work ethic, his steadfastness, and his strength, etc. Kit's speed isn't noting as being above and beyond what Jedi can use. In combat, Fisto hasn't demonstrated speed above and beyond that Obi/Anakin/Jinn have used in any case.



The former who he defeated and the latter he died to in the second swing.

K.

Work on building that case, bro.



Kenobi's TK is the same as Fisto's, the same as Anakin's, and probably the same as Barriss Offee's. It's not outside of the realm of Jinn, and it's not a definitive win, so it's a red herring to assume it is one.



Really? I don't recall Jinn straining to TK anything. Maybe you can educate us with your conclusive evidence.



He wasn't elevated until the war. I admit, much of his growth and ascendance to mastery was after Jinn died. But my point remains that much of your assertions he is superior are baseless, and horribly lacking in conclusive evidence.



He didn't hold out against her; he fell to her before Obi-Wan could finish defeating his own mooks, which is record time. You can sugar-coat it with "HURR, it's his weakness", but the fact remains he lost to a very green Dark Jedi (Ventress well before her prime) and his only showing of any serious merit includes either Force-less mooks of no value, or Grievous lite.

Way to build that case.



Evenly? Lol.



Do you even know what I'm talking about?

She maintained a rotating blade so fast it appeared to other Jedi as a solid ring of light, while doing a complex compass dance, in a show of dexterity that blew the minds of her fellow Jedi.

So how is this one feat relevant?



Same league as Kenobi and Maul?

So he could kill Anoon Bondara in seconds?

He could nearly threaten Sidious as Maul did?

He could defend against Anakin for ten plus minutes?

More baseless assertions. Shameful.

What Force user of merit has Jinn slain or defeated?

Wait for it.

None.



To be serious, though, I have no interest in continuing this debate. Just about all of your posts are either red herrings or strawmans mixed with lowballing. If you can't provide an honest argument, then don't provide one at all.

It never actually occurred to me that both Qui-Gon and Ventress have that big thing in common- That they were both trained by Count Dooku. Considering all the Makashi Ventress learned from Dooku, I agree with Stealth Moose that it would be silly to think that Qui-Gon never learnt anything of note from Dooku's fencing style. Dooku even as a Jedi would definitely teach his padawan a good load of fencing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What Force user of merit has Jinn slain or defeated?

Wait for it.

None.



To be serious, though, I have no interest in continuing this debate. Just about all of your posts are either red herrings or strawmans mixed with lowballing. If you can't provide an honest argument, then don't provide one at all.

http://0.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/23/17/b3e61d8ed0c9576c7c27dd8ab627518e.gif

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It never actually occurred to me that both Qui-Gon and Ventress have that big thing in common- That they were both trained by Count Dooku. Considering all the Makashi Ventress learned from Dooku, I agree with Stealth Moose that it would be silly to think that Qui-Gon never learnt anything of note from Dooku's fencing style. Dooku even as a Jedi would definitely teach his padawan a good load of fencing.

Not that it really matters, as his mastery of Makashi would be inferior to his mastery of Ataru.

Compared to Jinn, who spent part of his childhood into early adulthood if not more with Dooku (not counting other Makashi practitioners in the Temple like Cin Drallig, Anoon, etc.), Ventress was not even Dooku's apprentice six months before her fight with Fisto, and she was not even training the whole time either; she was engaged in fights with Jedi almost continually.

Pretty safe to say her knowledge of Makashi was minimal compared to Jinn's, even if the the latter largely eschewed it for Ataru.

Originally posted by Q99
Conceeded.


I will say he didn't *perfect* it, though, which iirc happened late in the CW.

Ehh it was already a recognized form that Qui-Gon refused to let Obi-Wan practice when he was determining his saber form.