Count Dooku and Obi-wan vs. Darth Sidious

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Tilmitt

Lord Stark
Dark Side Kenobi and Dooku stand a high chance of defeating Sidious.

Stealth Moose
I'm not sure Obi and Dooku singularly are a match in the Force, so they would have to try and close the gap very quickly. Sidious wiped the floor with Maul and Savage rather easily, so the benefit of having Kenobi is questionable. After that, it's just Dooku and he loses.

Q99
If they can keep it in melee, their odds are good. It depends a lot on the flow of the battle.

Intrepid37
Sidious easily.

DARTH POWER
A Dark Side Kenobi is too speculative and hard to quantify. I personally think it wouldn't benefit Kenobi turning to the darkside as his whole style is about embracing the light side and keeping a cool head during even the most intense situations.

And looking at how Kenobi got thrashed by Dooku even with help from the Chosen One, I don't see him making much difference here, unless people think Dooku has the power to save Kenobi from Sidious's Force attacks.

Q99
Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And looking at how Kenobi got thrashed by Dooku even with help from the Chosen One, I don't see him making much difference here, unless people think Dooku has the power to save Kenobi from Sidious's Force attacks.

Sure, but there's some rock-paper-scissors effect, Kenobi did beat the Chosen one who beat Dooku, after all.

Intrepid37
Kenobi beat Anakin because Anakin's mindset hindered him.

DARTH POWER
Also Kenobi trained Skywalker, so is naturally better suited to handle him.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Q99
If they can keep it in melee, their odds are good. It depends a lot on the flow of the battle.

lol

Intrepid37
You're so biased bro.

Arhael
Kenobi is the worse team mate there is. No good offensive technique to quickly overwhelm opponent.

Stealth Moose
Kenobi turtles all the time too, so there's that.

We know Sids can penetrate his defense. This is assuming Sids doesn't just chuck him like a used toy. Then it's all on Dooku, and his chances aren't that good.

DARTH POWER
Their only chance is to overwhelm him in Sabers. Leave any distance or stop in the Saber fight, then Kenobi goes instantaneously flying.

As for Sabers, Kenobi's Soresu would be useless. His Ataro/Jar Kai combo he used against Maul/Opress would be his best bet here. But if I were Dooku I'd take Anakin over Kenobi for this fight.

Intrepid37
If I were Dooku I'd take Yoda with me.

DARTH POWER
^ Kind of overkill, but whatever.

Intrepid37
Overkill is better than sleight of hand, bro.

Q99
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kenobi turtles all the time too, so there's that.

We know Sids can penetrate his defense. This is assuming Sids doesn't just chuck him like a used toy. Then it's all on Dooku, and his chances aren't that good.

Yes, Sidious can penetrate his defenses, but the Bros fight showed how someone with weaker defenses can keep in the game for awhile... til isolated.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Their only chance is to overwhelm him in Sabers. Leave any distance or stop in the Saber fight, then Kenobi goes instantaneously flying.

As for Sabers, Kenobi's Soresu would be useless. His Ataro/Jar Kai combo he used against Maul/Opress would be his best bet here. But if I were Dooku I'd take Anakin over Kenobi for this fight.


I do agree a more offensive style would be more useful here. And yea, that extra force power would be nice too.

Stealth Moose
I'm pretty confident that, given how easily Dooku can TK Kenobi, Sidious will not have much trouble. Unless the premise of this thread implies that Dooku teaches Kenobi to train specifically to kill Sidious.

The_Tempest
That was the premise of the thread.

Stealth Moose
I know. I'm being ironic.

The_Tempest
I know you were. So am I. Did you know that?

Stealth Moose
You're just following my lead because you're unoriginal.

The_Tempest
You may call me Vitiate, then.

Stealth Moose
Timeline:

- Stuff

- Vitiate ruled

- Stuff

- Palpatine became an apprentice in adulthood in totally different circumstances, using different methods to come to power and controlling an impressive Sith organization of 2-3 Sith at any given time.

- Stuff

- Luke explodes the cosmos yawning.

The_Tempest
Timeline:

- Palpatine holds the gold standard for successful Star Wars villainy and becomes an iconic character

- stuff x 3

- Bioware is given ~ $30 trillion dollars to come up with a new story and develop a game and makes their Big Bad Palpatinea megalomaniacal-narcissist-"genius" obsessed with immortality and galactic conquest and UNLIMITED POWAH who declares himself emperor and dresses himself in a hooded cloak and turns over day-to-day maintenance of his empire to ministers and underlings whilst he devotes himself to study of the Force who is ultimately "defeated" by a prophesied figure... but who may have actually survived that defeat as well...no, yeah, Palpatine

- Mickey assumes the throne and all of Star Wars is in flux

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Timeline:

- Palpatine holds the gold standard for successful Star Wars villainy and becomes an iconic character

- stuff x 3

- Bioware is given ~ $30 trillion dollars to come up with a new story and develop a game and makes their Big Bad Palpatinea megalomaniacal-narcissist-"genius" obsessed with immortality and galactic conquest and UNLIMITED POWAH who declares himself emperor and dresses himself in a hooded cloak and turns over day-to-day maintenance of his empire to ministers and underlings whilst he devotes himself to study of the Force who is ultimately "defeated" by a prophesied figure... but who may have actually survived that defeat as well...no, yeah, Palpatine

- Mickey assumes the throne and all of Star Wars is in flux

LOL.

Lord Stark
If Dooku can train Kenobi to be at least Maul level with the force they stand a chance, if not, he gets reduced to a smudge on the wall while Dooku eventually succumbs to Sidious.

Based
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You may call me Vitiate, then.

laughing laughing laughing

S_W_LeGenD
Sidious will slaughter both. No comparison.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Timeline:

- Palpatine holds the gold standard for successful Star Wars villainy and becomes an iconic character

- stuff x 3

- Bioware is given ~ $30 trillion dollars to come up with a new story and develop a game and makes their Big Bad Palpatinea megalomaniacal-narcissist-"genius" obsessed with immortality and galactic conquest and UNLIMITED POWAH who declares himself emperor and dresses himself in a hooded cloak and turns over day-to-day maintenance of his empire to ministers and underlings whilst he devotes himself to study of the Force who is ultimately "defeated" by a prophesied figure... but who may have actually survived that defeat as well...no, yeah, Palpatine

- Mickey assumes the throne and all of Star Wars is in flux

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You may call me Vitiate, then.

"The Force works in mysterious ways, it seems. There are times I'm not convinced it doesn't have a sense of humor."

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious will slaughter both. No comparison.



If that were true then Dooku never would have fought off and escaped Yoda (Sidious's equal).

There will be no "uber stomp," of Dooku here. Just a sound defeat.

Intrepid37
Neither Dooku nor Kenobi are able to even compete, per Lucas' own words. It is a slaughter.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Neither Dooku nor Kenobi are able to even compete, per Lucas' own words. It is a slaughter.


Compete suggests having a chance of winning. I can't compete in a race against you if your simply faster than me, because you'll win every time. Doesn't mean I can't make you work for the win.

Besides context is your friend. Lucas was referring to Jedi who can or can't compete with Palpatine. Not to mention Dooku was already dead at that point.

Fact is we've already seen Dooku put up a fight against Yoda, in a situation where it was vital for Yoda to stop Dooku. So there's absolutely no reason to think Palpatine (Yoda's equal) is going to stomp Dooku without much effort.

Intrepid37
If Palpatine chooses to, he can kill both of them before they can react.

Q99
Palpatine is fast but not *that* fast! Neither are at the blitzable level.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If that were true then Dooku never would have fought off and escaped Yoda (Sidious's equal).

There will be no "uber stomp," of Dooku here. Just a sound defeat.
Dooku have his moments but his performance against Yoda is not much of a deciding factor in this particular contest.

Reason is that Sidious is not a pacifist like Yoda, he is a Sith Lord and he doesn't have soft corner for Dooku either. Sidious is unlikely to give Dooku much choice and freedom to make his moves.

Sidious's duel against the brothers leaves no doubt that he will slaughter this particular duo as well, I am not implying blitz level dismissal but this duo is also toast.

When Dooku fought Opress and Ventress, we saw that he was struggling to subdue this duo. It was when the duo broke up (separated), then Dooku found an opening to exploit. In comparison, the duo of brothers was superior (Opress better trained and Maul > Ventress) and this duo faltered against Sidious.

I stick by my original assessment, Sidious will slaughter this duo.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
If Palpatine chooses to, he can kill both of them before they can react.


If that were true then Yoda would have prevented the Clone Wars from ever starting before Dooku could "even react."




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku have his moments but his performance against Yoda is not much of a deciding factor in this particular contest.

Reason is that Sidious is not a pacifist like Yoda, he is a Sith Lord and he doesn't have soft corner for Dooku either. Sidious is unlikely to give Dooku much choice and freedom to make his moves.


You require proof here. Proof that Yoda purposely didn't stop Dooku starting the Clone Wars because he "loved him too much," so instead allowed the mass murder of countless other Jedi. And proof that Sidious would fair better which I think you think is addressed below:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious's duel against the brothers leaves no doubt that he will slaughter this particular duo as well, I am not implying blitz level dismissal but this duo is also toast.


How so? This is a far far far superior duo to Maul and Opress. The weakest of this duo is at least equal to the strongest of the Zabrak duo.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When Dooku fought Opress and Ventress, we saw that he was struggling to subdue this duo. It was when the duo broke up (separated), then Dooku found an opening to exploit. In comparison, the duo of brothers was superior (Opress better trained and Maul > Ventress) and this duo faltered against Sidious.


And the duo of Skywalker and Kenobi is far superior to the Maul duo. Yet Count Dooku is capable of fighting off that far superior duo, at one point even casually stomping Kenobi while flattening Skywalker.

Again context is key. Count Dooku wasn't prepared for the Opress/Ventress team up. He was completely surprised by Ventress being alive and their planned team up. And he was still coming out on top.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I stick by my original assessment, Sidious will slaughter this duo.


I see no basis for that opinion. Dooku can put up a half decent fight alone. Kenobi will only help his efforts.

Q99
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

When Dooku fought Opress and Ventress, we saw that he was struggling to subdue this duo. It was when the duo broke up (separated), then Dooku found an opening to exploit. In comparison, the duo of brothers was superior (Opress better trained and Maul > Ventress) and this duo faltered against Sidious.


Yes, but this duo is better than the brothers duo in both cases. Kenobi > Savage and Dooku > Maul.

The brothers were able to make it last a few minutes, this much stronger duo should do even better.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If that were true then Yoda would have prevented the Clone Wars from ever starting before Dooku could "even react."
No, since Yoda has never appeared imperceptible to other extremely fast Force practitioners whereas Palpatine has on multiple occassions.

Nephthys
So Palpatine is faster than Yoda? erm

Despite being disarmed by him?

Intrepid37
Sure.

Nephthys
Seems legit. thumb up


If you're STOOPID!

Intrepid37
No, you're suggesting that Palpatine being disarmed by Yoda makes no sense if he's faster than Yoda, which is what's stupid. Agen curbstomped Quin in one panel but Quin is at least as fast as him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, since Yoda has never appeared imperceptible to other extremely fast Force practitioners whereas Palpatine has on multiple occassions.


Well he should have displayed his Uber "I Blitz anyone whose not Mace or Yoda" ability against Maul and Opress.

But since he didn't, I'm not buying it.

Intrepid37
At the end, Sidious was fighting so fast that Maul only saw countless afterimages of Sidious' blade.

ares834
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he should have displayed his Uber "I Blitz anyone whose not Mace or Yoda" ability against Maul and Opress.

But since he didn't, I'm not buying it.

thumb up

Q99
Originally posted by Intrepid37
At the end, Sidious was fighting so fast that Maul only saw countless afterimages of Sidious' blade.

1) But he was still able to defend for a bit because force-users have precog.

2) That wasn't Maul at his TCW height, which in turn wasn't as much as Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he should have displayed his Uber "I Blitz anyone whose not Mace or Yoda" ability against Maul and Opress.

But since he didn't, I'm not buying it.


The writer even said the reason why they were able to not be blitzed was, simply, they were a bit better than the masters who fell.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Q99
1) But he was still able to defend for a bit because force-users have precog.
He never defended for a bit. As soon as Sidious' speed was at its maximum, Maul was disarmed.

Originally posted by Q99
2) That wasn't Maul at his TCW height, which in turn wasn't as much as Dooku.
No, it was in TCW.


Originally posted by Q99
The writer even said the reason why they were able to not be blitzed was, simply, they were a bit better than the masters who fell.
The only thing said was that Savage did better than the Council members. Why? Because Sidious let him.

Q99
I'm pretty sure the writer implied the opposite. I mean, Oppress definitely needed Maul's presence to stay alive, but Sidious didn't dominate until he split them up. He did not have them on the defensive on sabers when they were double-teaming him.

ares834
Originally posted by Intrepid37
At the end, Sidious was fighting so fast that Maul only saw countless afterimages of Sidious' blade.

Have the passage? From what I recall, it is contradicted by the show.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm pretty sure the writer implied the opposite. I mean, Oppress definitely needed Maul's presence to stay alive, but Sidious didn't dominate until he split them up. He did not have them on the defensive on sabers when they were double-teaming him.

thumb up

The_Tempest
Pretty sure Word of God put this debate to bed a while back.

ares834
What Word of God was that?

Stealth Moose
IIRC, Filoni said Sids was toying with them.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
IIRC, Filoni said Sids was toying with them.


He never said that. He did however credit Opress's performance against Sidious as being better than Fisto/Tiin/Kolar's.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
What Word of God was that?

Filoni. That Sidious was "the strongest, most dangerous guy" and at the end of the day "no one was really going to touch him" and "he's really enjoying himself" and Maul is "nowhere near as powerful as Sidious" and "no one can compete with this guy."

This fight was basically a love letter to Sidious and every single thing Dave Filoni's had to say about the duel in the past year confirms it. This was not a contest of peers; this was an ass kicking.

Q99
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Filoni. That Sidious was "the strongest, most dangerous guy" and at the end of the day "no one was really going to touch him" and "he's really enjoying himself" and Maul is "nowhere near as powerful as Sidious" and "no one can compete with this guy."

This fight was basically a love letter to Sidious and every single thing Dave Filoni's had to say about the duel in the past year confirms it. This was not a contest of peers; this was an ass kicking.

None of which says he was holding back when facing them both at once- Heck yea they can't compete with him, it was two on one!

He was enjoying himself, but what's the other time he really enjoyed himself? Well, when he let completely loose against Yoda. He *loves* letting loose.


And even in our version, he was holding his own two-on-one. I think you're going to need something more explicit to prove that he was significantly holding back on top of that.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Filoni. That Sidious was "the strongest, most dangerous guy" and at the end of the day "no one was really going to touch him" and "he's really enjoying himself" and Maul is "nowhere near as powerful as Sidious" and "no one can compete with this guy."

This fight was basically a love letter to Sidious and every single thing Dave Filoni's had to say about the duel in the past year confirms it. This was not a contest of peers; this was an ass kicking.

Beg your pardon but I think there's some misunderstanding here.

All he's saying in the above comments is that Maul & Savage never had a chance at beating Palpatine. I don't think anyone here is claiming otherwise. All we're saying is that they acquitted themselves well given who they were up against.

A previous poster said it best; you can't "compete" in a race against someone who is far faster than you because you don't really have a chance at beating them. That doesn't mean that you didn't do well in your own right.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by ares834
Have the passage? From what I recall, it is contradicted by the show.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ares834
Have the passage? From what I recall, it is contradicted by the show.





It was completed contradicted by the show. Maul fought at the same speed as Sidious in the final fight. Also no mention in the novel of Maul also using dual Sabers. That is probably the most contradicted part of the whole novel. Likely because they wanted to keep that final fight a surprise when watching it.



Originally posted by Q99
None of which says he was holding back when facing them both at once- Heck yea they can't compete with him, it was two on one!

He was enjoying himself, but what's the other time he really enjoyed himself? Well, when he let completely loose against Yoda. He *loves* letting loose.


And even in our version, he was holding his own two-on-one. I think you're going to need something more explicit to prove that he was significantly holding back on top of that.


thumb up

Arhael
I see Sidious speed wank is still on.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul fought at the same speed as Sidious in the final fight.
lol

If he did, and if you're saying Sidious was using his full speed, you're essentially saying he can blitz masters like Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin.

Astor Ebligis
Except there are different applications of speed. Speed of attacks =/= speed of footwork in close combat =/= running speed etc.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

If he did, and if you're saying Sidious was using his full speed, you're essentially saying he can blitz masters like Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin.


Just like Mace Windu can blitz Kolar and Tiin?

Maul was in a rage enhanced state mind you so operating above his norm power level. But if there was a difference in Maul and Sidious's speed and skill in that final fight then it wasn't a noticeable one.


Originally posted by Arhael
I see Sidious speed wank is still on.


It has been the source of many good wanks.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Q99
None of which says he was holding back when facing them both at once- Heck yea they can't compete with him, it was two on one!

He was enjoying himself, but what's the other time he really enjoyed himself? Well, when he let completely loose against Yoda. He *loves* letting loose.


And even in our version, he was holding his own two-on-one. I think you're going to need something more explicit to prove that he was significantly holding back on top of that.

...I have him Force splatting the brothers at the beginning of the fight and letting them go. If Sidious was fighting his hardest and wanting them dead, why did he not do it then? I also have him laughing his ass off from start to finish.

So with that said, I'm going with Filoni on this one.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
...I have him Force splatting the brothers at the beginning of the fight and letting them go. If Sidious was fighting his hardest and wanting them dead, why did he not do it then? I also have him laughing his ass off from start to finish.

So with that said, I'm going with Filoni on this one.

I have to agree, Maul and Opress were nowhere near Sidious. Filoni, being the unabashed fanboy that he is, made sure of this. Even though Maul does exceptionally well against Sidious in an earlier EU novel which is probably burning at Epcot center as we speak.

The_Tempest
I'd say it's less fanboyism than it is Filoni recognizing that Sidious is the most important, powerful, accomplished, successful, handsome, and bestest bad guy in the entire mythology. A fact with which you, sir, must come to grips.

http://i.imgur.com/fU9jYP0.png

excellent

Nephthys
I'd **** Dooku before Sidious.

Dat Saruman swag. http://www.fizzygrizzly.com/forum/images/smilies/e5074700.png

The_Tempest
The ass-crack forehead doesn't do it for you?

Nephthys
I like my ass-cracks in their proper God-given places thank you very much.

Stealth Moose
Gey.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just like Mace Windu can blitz Kolar and Tiin?
He can't.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
He can't.


There we go then. If Star Wars was logical we would never have the whole Kenobi beats Skywalker beats Dooku stomps Kenobi situation. And the 2nd most Powerful Jedi wouldn't defeat the all powerful Emperor when the Most Powerful Jedi failed to do so.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I have to agree, Maul and Opress were nowhere near Sidious.


Nobody's denying that. But that doesn't mean Sidious wasn't fighting properly.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Maul does exceptionally well against Sidious in an earlier EU novel which is probably burning at Epcot center as we speak.


He did well in his last one on one against Sidious in TCW.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Q99
And even in our version, he was holding his own two-on-one. I think you're going to need something more explicit to prove that he was significantly holding back on top of that.


Sidious was stomping 2 on 1, casually evading and deflecting their attacks, while landing multiple physical attacks on them.

As for holding back,

1) He admits at the end of the fight that he wasn't there to kill Maul, which means he was holding back.

2) He was mocking them throughout the entire battle, smiling, and even deactivates his sabers mid-duel in order to perform an unnecessary fancy stunt, which suggest that he wasn't taking either of them seriously, which means he surely wasn't working for his easy win, especially considering how relaxed he was. Then we have Filoni's implications and the fact that Sidious proved how effortlessly he can handle them without even needing to touch his sabers.

Sidious was holding back immensely. How was he not?

To keep referencing Sidious fight with Yoda is plain silly, considering that Sidious laughed once when engaging Yoda in close combat. The only other times he laughed was when Yoda was either unconscious or when he was like miles away. Whereas he was pretty much laughing and mocking the brothers throughout the entire duel.

Intrepid37
Sidious has already stomped Maul multiple times before. Not really sure why people have a problem with him being above just about everyone.

SIDIOUS 66
I know DP's problem. Not sure about Q99's. Perhaps it's because Sidious easily handled his apprentice, whereas Krayt would have been killed by his if Wyyrlok wasn't giving such a long speach. lol

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious has already stomped Maul multiple times before. Not really sure why people have a problem with him being above just about everyone.


confused

No one's argued argued Sidious isn't above Maul. In fact he's proved he's clearly above Maul and Opress combined.

I'm personally not sure what people's problem is with Sidious not Blitzing Maul. But to each his own problems.

The_Tempest
Sidious. Especially in light of recent revelations...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1ui35TerW1qg10guo1_r2_500.gif

Intrepid37
What relevations, bro?

Astor Ebligis
Probably. I don't think Sidious can dispose of Obi-Wan with a saber like he did the members of the B Team, but I'm sure he could take him out with the Force pretty easily and then just have a 1 on 1 with Dooku.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Intrepid37
What relevations, bro?

Sidious Force-choking the shit via hologram out of Dooku while the Count was on Serenno in the Outer Rim and Sidious was on Coruscant.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious Force-choking the shit via hologram out of Dooku while the Count was on Serenno in the Outer Rim and Sidious was on Coruscant.
Not bad. Dooku was probably taken by surprise, though.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not bad. Dooku was probably taken by surprise, though.

He was. Sidious admonishes him for his previous failures and encourages him to succeed in burying the leak about Sifo-Dyas... all while levitating him off the floor by his neck.

Still, the dynamic in TCW is pretty straight forward. You really don't see that sort of telekinetic dominance unless there's a distinct power gap (Yoda vs. Ventress; Sidious vs. The Zabraks, etc.) or an obvious rage-induced moment (Ventress vs. Anakin & Obi-Wan, Savage vs. Dooku & Ventress).

Nephthys
Dooku isn't that much more powerful than Maul or Savage. If Sidious can TK both of them then it just makes sense that he could do so to Dooku too.

Intrepid37
It reminds me of the instance in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous where Sidious' appearance on hologram causes a storm on Vjun and makes the Count shit himself.

The_Tempest
Yep. Love Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. Best book in the EU.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku isn't that much more powerful than Maul or Savage. If Sidious can TK both of them then it just makes sense that he could do so to Dooku too.

At this point, given their own impressive feats, I question whether or not Dooku is more "powerful" than they are at all. More skilled, certainly. More dangerous, absolutely.

Nephthys
If he wasn't, would Sidious kept Dooku as his apprentice instead of the younger Maul?

Intrepid37
Dooku's more powerful than either individually, but combined, they're better.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
If he wasn't, would Sidious kept Dooku as his apprentice instead of the younger Maul?

I think Dooku enjoys some (not total, obviously) semblance of job security given his position as the figurehead of the Separatist movement. Sidious 'needed' Dooku's charisma, reputation, and wealth to aid in the war.

Like I said, I have no doubt that Dooku is altogether more formidable than either Maul or Opress. But in terms of sheer, raw power? They may be closer than what was once thought.

Intrepid37
Why?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Why?

Their feats of Force strength are comparable to Dooku's.

Astor Ebligis
Originally posted by Nephthys
If he wasn't, would Sidious kept Dooku as his apprentice instead of the younger Maul?

Plus we know it was Anakin that he really has his eye on. His current apprentice was only going to be a temporary placeholder, so I don't think he would really care about Maul's potential, but rather simply what he currently brings to the table.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Their feats of Force strength are comparable to Dooku's.

I meant, why did you once think they weren't?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There we go then. If Star Wars was logical we would never have the whole Kenobi beats Skywalker beats Dooku stomps Kenobi situation.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The scenarios you're describing are perfectly logical.

A duel has numerous variables which can influence the outcome. Location, environmental hazards, knowledge/understanding of the enemy, state of mind etc. It's NEVER as simple as "Durr, that guy's stronger so he wins durr."

Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin because a) Anakin was blinded by rage b) Kenobi had fought alongside him in numerous battles so he could read him better than anyone and c) there were environmental hazards to exploit (the whole high ground thing).

Against Dooku Anakin was in control of his rage rather than blinded by it, Dooku didn't know how he fought as intimately as Kenobi did and there were no environmental hazards.

Different sets of variables. That is completely logical.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the 2nd most Powerful Jedi wouldn't defeat the all powerful Emperor when the Most Powerful Jedi failed to do so.


Mace had the ability to see Shatterpoints and mastery of Vaapad. Two advantages that Yoda did not possess.

Plus Yoda was unable to defeat Palpatine because, again, location. They were fighting in a pod high up in the air and when the lightning ball exploded Yoda was sent flying out of the pod and fell a long way down. Had the duel occurred in say, a grassy meadow, that would not have been the case

Again, different variables. That is completely logical

If I misunderstood and you were in fact saying exactly that, then I apologize.

SIDIOUS 66
mfwGvFHM2-A


At least Sidious' force ownage of Dooku is on youtube, though it's in German.

Dooku and Kenobi are both fodder.

NewGuy01
After seeing Sidious crush Anakin in the most recent episode, I'm definitely going with him here lol.

ares834
That was in an illusion though... Although, that's likely to be what would happen.


Anyway, Sidious uses the force to easily win. The Clone Wars made it pretty clear that Sidious/Yoda's force abilities completely outstrip everyone else's.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
mfwGvFHM2-A


At least Sidious' force ownage of Dooku is on youtube, though it's in German.

Dooku and Kenobi are both fodder.

"This is not the first time you've proven to be clumsy (fist clench), Lord Tyranus... You know the price of failure."

SIDIOUS 66
I guess one can argue that that level of domination would not have happened if Dooku was on-guard, but that notion can be debunked by the fact that Dooku makes it clear from his reaction to Sidious' discussion on how to punish Ventress in Yoda: DR to Dooku's implication during his force torturing of Ventress (also in DR), implying that Sidious gave him the same treatment as he was giving Ventress (Dooku describes the pain Ventress was feeling), that Sidious is very prone to attacking him with the force, so I doubt Dooku is stupid enough to ever be off-guard when speaking with Sidious. I think it's pretty clear that Dooku is just defenseless against the power of Sidious, hence his fear of speaking to him even via hologram.

Now... who's Bane, Vitiate, and Krayt again? (lol)

Astor Ebligis
Maybe Dooku just accepts reality (that Sidious is more powerful and that it wouldn't be in his interests to try to destroy him) and chooses to just take his punishment (when that's all it is, punishment, not the opening move in a fight to the death) rather than defend himself/fight back and in doing so show disobedience, which might prompt Sidious to destroy him?

SIDIOUS 66
Doubt it. Even Sidious learned to be on guard when in the presence of Plagueis after a surprise force attack from him. I doubt Dooku just allows it.

SIDIOUS 66
And as you said, it's not in Sidious best interest to kill Dooku. If Dooku's clumsiness, which could have cost them, didn't prompt Sidious to destroy him, then I don't see how defending against a force attack (not attack Sidious back) would prompt him to.

DARTH POWER
There was no harm in Dooku resisting, so I'm guessing he probably was. If he can do that to Count Dooku from another frigging planet, then he could lierally just flick Kenobi.

So yeah, I concede, Sidious stomps.

I'm only left wondering why Mace can compete with Sidious. Is Mace 10 times more powerful than Dooku in the Force? Or is it really just down to Vapaad drawing on Sidious's Dark Side energies? That topic is more confusing to me than ever now.

Stealth Moose
It's because Mace is black, and Sidious could lose his career if he curbstomped a black guy.

Duh.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The_Tempest




At this point, given their own impressive feats, I question whether or not Dooku is more "powerful" than they are at all. More skilled, certainly. More dangerous, absolutely.


I'd say what makes the gap between them significant is Kenobi being able to hold off and/or defeat each one of the Maul bros. When we then see the way Dooku handles Kenobi every time they fight (usually when Kenobi has Skywalker aiding him) then we have to believe Dooku is significantly above Maul. But I do now think that both Zabrak brothers together would probably wreck him.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd say what makes the gap between them significant is Kenobi being able to hold off and/or defeat each one of the Maul bros. When we then see the way Dooku handles Kenobi every time they fight (usually when Kenobi has Skywalker aiding him) then we have to believe Dooku is significantly above Maul. But I do now think that both Zabrak brothers together would probably wreck him.


Maul has never went all out in trying to kill Kenobi as Dooku has. I think Intrepid provided a source that pretty much confirms it.

In any case, I believe Temp was talking about sheer raw power with the force. He pretty much admits Dooku is more dangerous overall. Dooku does have the better saber feats, and a wider range of offensive force abilities than Maul, but they seem to be peers in TK.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul has never went all out in trying to kill Kenobi as Dooku has. I think Intrepid provided a source that pretty much confirms it.


Still Dooku was just continuously owning Kenobi in that last fight. (I'm glad it was without the Force as well because now people can't argue that Dooku can't beat Kenobi without TK Lol). But given that, if it was a one on one, and Dooku didn't want to kill Kenobi, that shouldn't really be a problem for Dooku at all.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In any case, I believe Temp was talking about sheer raw power with the force. He pretty much admits Dooku is more dangerous overall. Dooku does have the better saber feats, and a wider range of offensive force abilities than Maul, but they seem to be peers in TK.


I think Dooku still has superior raw tk power feats tbh. But it's a shame we never got Dooku vs Maul. (Or Mace vs Dooku to clear up a few things).

Lord Stark
I highly doubt Sidious can actually force choke Dooku like that in the midst of battle. Sidious and Dooku's relationship as Master and Apprentice was far more of a pair of equals as per canon. Also why is force choking someone from across the galaxy more impressive than choking someone right next to you? Is not the force a galaxy wide entity?

Also considering Sidious' reaction to Ventress becoming more powerful, I actually doubt Sidious can overcome Tyranus with a competent partner.

Stealth Moose
Spirit Freedan Nadd choked Vodo from across the galaxy while trolling Kun on Korriban.

All hail.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I highly doubt Sidious can actually force choke Dooku like that in the midst of battle. Sidious and Dooku's relationship as Master and Apprentice was far more of a pair of equals as per canon. Also why is force choking someone from across the galaxy more impressive than choking someone right next to you? Is not the force a galaxy wide entity?

Also considering Sidious' reaction to Ventress becoming more powerful, I actually doubt Sidious can overcome Tyranus with a competent partner.

Sidious lecturing, choking, and threatening Dooku is characteristic of a relationship between... equals?

Stealth Moose
This explains some past relationships.

The_Tempest
Likewise.

Nephthys
You guys treat your GFs/BFs as equals?

Lawl, pussies.

The_Tempest
...No comment.

Stealth Moose
Neph is a sub, we all know this.

Astor Ebligis
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There was no harm in Dooku resisting, so I'm guessing he probably was.

No harm other than showing disobedience?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
No harm other than showing disobedience?

Dooku visibly struggled in the chokehold. This didn't strike me as some sort of kinky sex game between the two wherein the Count indulged his asphyxiation fetish.

Astor Ebligis
Visibly struggled with the pain or visibly struggled in conjuring a defence? Haven't seen the scene btw.

The_Tempest
I think S66 posted it on the previous page.

Nephthys
Clutching your neck isn't really struggling. Thats just what everyone does when being choked.

The_Tempest
Yes, people tend to struggle when they're choked.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious lecturing, choking, and threatening Dooku is characteristic of a relationship between... equals?

wh01SWVYyNU

Yeah he seems pretty shocked to me when Sidious does it.

Also I mean relatively equal compared to his other apprentices.

Galan007
Wow, I somehow missed that episode. Palpatine treated the good Count as though he were a powerless feeb. Brilliant. thumb up

SIDIOUS 66
The full episodes are on the anime site. If you don't know which site I'm referring to, I can give you the link later.

KuRuPT Thanosi
and people think Mace and Dooku are equal... LOL.. When Dooku gets treated like a weakling by his master and mace overpowers that same master.. Where is that troll Intrepid when you need him

Astor Ebligis
her*

Lord Stark
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and people think Mace and Dooku are equal... LOL.. When Dooku gets treated like a weakling by his master and mace overpowers that same master.. Where is that troll Intrepid when you need him

Oh you mean how Dooku got stomped by Mace's superior...oh wait. Also if Sidious can legit choke Tyranus to death (I doubt he can), you can be damned sure he can do the same to Mace. If he legit bypassed Dooku's defences like that, then the notion that Palps was holding back is just that much more credible.

DARTH POWER
I don't remember Mace resisting a Force Choke from Sidious. And find it highly unlikely that he could. If Sidious gets opportunity to unleash his full Force Powers on Windu, then I'm pretty sure Windu would be toast.

Let's not forget in the previous episode to Sidious choking Dooku, Mace fought Talzin and was hardly stomping. I'm pretty sure if he was as powerful as Sidious then he would have stomped her with ease.

Lord Stark
How was his duel with Talzin?

EDIT: Just watched, this begs the question as to why she felt the need to run from Grievous but stay and fight Windu.

DARTH POWER
^ I think against Grievous she faked her death to get rid of Dooku and the droid army.

I know we haven't seen Talzin fight anyone else. But she was manipulating Ventress, Maul and Opress to overpower the Sith for her. So I'm pretty sure she knew she was no match for Sidious. (I don't even think she could take Dooku without a ritual tbh). Hopefully we see her fight more in the Maul: Son of Dathomir comic book.

ares834
Originally posted by Lord Stark
How was his duel with Talzin?

Probably the stupidest thing in the new episodes. Instead of focusing on the Windu/Talzin duel they focus on Jar Jar's antics... roll eyes (sarcastic)

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ares834
Probably the stupidest thing in the new episodes. Instead of focusing on the Windu/Talzin duel they focus on Jar Jar's antics... roll eyes (sarcastic)


GOD Yeah that was annoying!

Lord Stark
Originally posted by ares834
Probably the stupidest thing in the new episodes. Instead of focusing on the Windu/Talzin duel they focus on Jar Jar's antics... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Jesus yeah that was painful.

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