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We saw on KOTR2 that Darth Traya was able to defeat three Jedi Masters by herself effortlessly. But how would she fare against three Jedi Masters from years after her time?

Traya is at her prime,able to use each and every skill she has.Force Drain,the three Lightsabers,you name it,she use it.

Would those three be far superior tham the masters she has killed and prove too much for her to face at once,or could Traya defeat them as well?

Battle is at Malachor V,Trayus Academy,at the very place Darth Traya battled the Jedi Exile on the last battle.

(Forgot to mention,the three Jedi Masters are all ROTS)

Darth Traya stands no chance. The three Jedi that Traya killed can't compete with Yoda, Mace Windu and Obi-Wan.

Giga Drain can't be beat.

This is a stomp in favor of the Jedi.

If she has that unique form of Giga Drain, she wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Giga Drain can't be beat.

Yoda takes it alone, Mace takes it alone. Kenobi distracts excellent.

Also no limits fallacy on the giga drain.

Its not a no-limits fallacy so much as it is a 'these characters have no defense against this insta-kill technique."

Anakin learned from the spirit of Ulic Qel-Droma how to resist Force Drain. He needed that ability to destroy the Dark Reaper. I'm certain that RotS Anakin could defeat Traya solo.

Perhaps, but none of the others have shown this talent.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
I'm certain that RotS Anakin could defeat Traya solo.

Could he? She did kill 10 Sith just by walking passed them with the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Could he? She did kill 10 Sith just by walking passed them with the Force.

And when did she do that?

Upon arriving on Malachor V, IIRC.

iTF9xu50Hb0

First 25 seconds.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its not a no-limits fallacy so much as it is a 'these characters have no defense against this insta-kill technique."

Traya's never killed someone more powerful than herself with the technique.

Just three Jedi council members.

And ten odd Sith.

And made Sion on Malachor V her *****.

Traya is so damn weak.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Traya's never killed someone more powerful than herself with the technique.

So what?

Also, you think shes more powerful than all 3 of the Council members put together? Or 7 Sith Assassins?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what?

Also, you think shes more powerful than all 3 of the Council members put together? Or 7 Sith Assassins?

Uh yes. Kreia presumably gives the Exile a run for her money, the same Exile who canonically stomped the entire Trayus Academy. I'd bet my left nut that if Kavar, Vrook, and Zek-Kai El were brazen enough to assault the Trayus Academy they'd get their asses handed to them on a silver platter.


"The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold."
^This is exactly what you do with Kreia's gigadrain.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh yes. Kreia presumably gives the Exile a run for her money, the same Exile who canonically stomped the entire Trayus Academy. I'd bet my left nut that if Kavar, Vrook, and Zek-Kai El were brazen enough to assault the Trayus Academy they'd get their asses handed to them on a silver platter.


"The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold."
^This is exactly what you do with Kreia's gigadrain.

Except that the narration specifically builds it to be a killing device which requires a certain defense or nature to overcome, and is not a defense regularly known to Jedi. Anakin learned it from fallen Sith Ulic, and the Exile is specifically a wound so she is exempt from its effects. Traya, Sion, and Nihilus all had specific training in the draining arts.

It's not being "extrapolated to infinity" when it simply kills in absence of a practical defense. Either you can prove that the Jedi have such a defense (which again, evidence does not suggest) or you can't, and they die. Whining about the unfairness doesn't change the facts.

I was under the impression that what Traya used was not Drain, but Sever Force. The same technique that was used against her by Nihilus and Sion against her.



No one can defend(except possibly Plagueis, as evidenced by his Book of Sith entry) against the Sever Force technique. How do we know this? Because even the Exile, who was a wound in the Force and immune against Nihilus' mega drain, was powerless to resist when the three masters attempted to sever her for the Force.
And because Ulic himself, who taught Anakin to defend himself from being drained, was powerless against Sever Force.

Obviously Kreia can't take Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan in combat, so the only question is, can she preempt them and cut them off from the Force before the duel starts? She did succeed against Vrook, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell, but personally I think she has little chance here.

So yeah, Kreia loses. Badly. At best she might be able to kill Obi-Wan through Force attacks, but even that is doubtful.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh yes. Kreia presumably gives the Exile a run for her money, the same Exile who canonically stomped the entire Trayus Academy.
For the record, I think Kreia is much stronger than the Exile. In fact she is the strongest Force user of her time, except Nihilus.
The Exile fought her way through the entire Trayus academy, killing the Sith in small groups. But Kreia effortlessly killed a dozen of them without even blinking. The Exile fought Sion to a stalemate and then convinced him to let go by subverting his will. But Kreia totally broke Sion's will, choked him and made him her lapdog.

There is much that indicates that Kreia took it easy on the Exile in their final encounter. The fight was not about the Exile being stronger than Kreia, it was about the Exile having the will to kill her. Kreia's purpose throughout the whole game was to help the Exile become some sort of ubermensch, someone unlike any other Jedi or Sith, someone who used the Force but was not dependent on it or a slave to its will.

I'm on mobile so I must be brief sadly.

1. The animation matches Force Drain.

2. Force Sever is known to Jedi and is non lethal. Also, it is not infallible. Exar Kun resisted Odan-Urr's attempt even though the latter pretty much mastered the technique during the Great Hyperspace Wars.

3. In a Dark Side Exile playthru, she explicitly feeds on the Jedi Masters one at a time using the same animation and gains power in doing so.

In light of this, Gigadrain is not Force Sever, and furthermore you have not established any reason why this trio would succeed where the council members failed. Hell, Kavar was able to Force stun an entire cantina while on Onderon, arguably a Dark Side nexus thanks to the Krath. They were not weak mooks with high titles.

What are Traya's TK feats other than movie some lightsabers with precision?

Kind of a red herring, don't you think?

She smacks the Jedi Council around a bit.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kind of a red herring, don't you think?

No, not really. This may be a who hits who first.

Sidious can knock Maul unconscious with a mere force push, and choke Dooku instantly while at a distance of lightyears. Seeing how Dooku can casually overpower most force users of his era, and was well known for his mastery in that area, I don't see how Kreia would be able to defend against a TK attack from Yoda if Dooku can't from Sidious, unless she is a more powerful TK user than Dooku, which is why I'm asking for feats.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh yes. Kreia presumably gives the Exile a run for her money, the same Exile who canonically stomped the entire Trayus Academy. I'd bet my left nut that if Kavar, Vrook, and Zek-Kai El were brazen enough to assault the Trayus Academy they'd get their asses handed to them on a silver platter.


"The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold."
^This is exactly what you do with Kreia's gigadrain.

Because they are individually not strong enough to do that. Just because 3 5's can't beat a large number of 3's but a 7 can doesn't change the fact that combined they equal 15. Remember that right before the Exile did that the Council immobilized her and would have stripped her of the Force against her will. Kreia's power is presumably not large enough that she's equal to the combined power of those 3 Jedi.

I was only joking that the Giga Drain can't be beat. But you are thinking of it in the wrong manner. It is not a question of capacity or threshold, its one of vulnerability. Its like how Superman is stronger than sex but has no defense against magic. Despite the magic being not nearly as powerful as Superman, his vulnerability renders that a moot point and he is damaged by it as human would be.

Voldemort versus Supes?

This is what I was talking about in the other thread. As soon as it's agreed that a non-PT Jedi/Sith has an unblockable instakill move, the PT proponents immediately start arguing the extremely unlikely scenario where the other person can simply kill them before they use it. Just like with Sion, where it's agreed that he can't be killed in conventional means, people start arguing that he's of no real threat anyway and start arguing extremely unlikely scenarios where he might be destroyed.

Maybe just acknowledge that unkillable Sith and Sith that can instantly kill 10 Sith at once or three Jedi Masters at once are better than people like Yoda and Mace Windu who are remarkably pedestrian by comparison?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Voldemort versus Supes?

Superman may have no defense against magic, but he can still punch Voldemort at mach 200 before he can twitch.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
This is what I was talking about in the other thread. As soon as it's agreed that a non-PT Jedi/Sith has an unblockable instakill move, the PT proponents immediately start arguing the extremely unlikely scenario where the other person can simply kill them before they use it. Just like with Sion, where it's agreed that he can't be killed in conventional means, people start arguing that he's of no real threat anyway and start arguing extremely unlikely scenarios where he might be destroyed.

Maybe just acknowledge that unkillable Sith and Sith that can instantly kill 10 Sith at once or three Jedi Masters at once are better than people like Yoda and Mace Windu who are remarkably pedestrian by comparison?

Movie bias is very strong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Superman may have no defense against magic, but he can still punch Voldemort at mach 200 before he can twitch.

Make the thread for Quan.

That would require me to want to see Quan post.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Movie bias is very strong.

EU bias is pretty potent too, in these parts. You're aroused at the prospect of Vitiate and Nihilus Force-nomming worlds... but then Sidious Force chokes Dooku and you're enraged.

You don't think there's a bit of a double standard there?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
EU bias is pretty potent too, in these parts. You're aroused at the prospect of Vitiate and Nihilus Force-nomming worlds... but then Sidious Force chokes Dooku and you're enraged.

You don't think there's a bit of a double standard there?

Eh, I don't like inconsistency in character portrayal. I get that Sidious is superior, but Dooku should not get the same level of treatment from him that Yoda gave to Ventress. It shows a disparity which simply didn't exist prior to this.

But there's other stuff which bothers me far more. Like Barriss Offee's mischaracterization, Ventress' oscillation from murder machine to jobber, and Grievous doing the same. Overall, the films and their related content have become a tremendous headache, whereas most EU is relatively contained and consistent within itself, if nothing else.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except that the narration specifically builds it to be a killing device which requires a certain defense or nature to overcome, and is not a defense regularly known to Jedi. Anakin learned it from fallen Sith Ulic, and the Exile is specifically a wound so she is exempt from its effects. Traya, Sion, and Nihilus all had specific training in the draining arts.

It's not being "extrapolated to infinity" when it simply kills in absence of a practical defense. Either you can prove that the Jedi have such a defense (which again, evidence does not suggest) or you can't, and they die. Whining about the unfairness doesn't change the facts.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Yoda has shown the ability to resist Sith magic from the most powerful sith lord in history on a DS nexus, whilst exhausted, his defenses are significant.
Also, she has no speed feats. Sidious can blitz a Jedi Master before said master can raise a blade, I see no reason Yoda couldn't cut Kreia's head off before she can raise a hand.

Actually, the B team did raise their blades.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Yoda has shown the ability to resist Sith magic from the most powerful sith lord in history on a DS nexus, whilst exhausted, his defenses are significant.
Also, she has no speed feats. Sidious can blitz a Jedi Master before said master can raise a blade, I see no reason Yoda couldn't cut Kreia's head off before she can raise a hand.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, the B team did raise their blades.




They had more time to respond to her attack than Kun did against Odan-Urr. In any case, you're using "Sith magic" incorrectly; Dark Side Force use is not always Sith magic. The drain requires a specific defense which is hammered home repeatedly during KotOR 2. The fact that you ignore this and reassert that Yoda will defend by virtue of being really strong doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, the B team did raise their blades.

The B team has better speed feats than Kreia does. Also as brought up earlier what is stopping Yoda from pinning her to the ground with TK. Where was Kreia's great giga drain when Nihilus demolished her with a simple force push.

I didn't realize you needed a better speed feat then "Raise hand, other people die".

Please, enlighten us.

EDIT: How was Traya going to gigadrain Nihilus, a wound.

LMFAO. You people.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I didn't realize you needed a better speed feat then "Raise hand, other people die".

Uh obviously. There's not even proof giga drain could tag Yoda. Dooku was able to easily dodge a combined Force Push from Skywalker and Kenobi.

And also again, yes Traya is far more powerful than the three Jedi Council members. She ***** slaps the three of them casually, then when Vrook (likely the strongest of the trio) gets back up he gets slapped down again. Even without Giga Drain it was clear how that was going to go down. And if it comes down to who can raise their hand faster Yoda has shown to be faster and have better reactions than Kreia.




Also did Traya even know that you couldn't drain someone like Nihilus? Because Nihilus himself certainly didn't know.

It's ludicrous to assume Yoda doesn't have a defense against Kreia's drain, when he can go against the most powerful Sith Lord in history toe-to-toe. The fact that he hasn't shown a defensive technique against this drain doesn't mean he doesn't have one. For God's sake, he's the most knowledgeable Jedi of the PT era and arguably one of the most knowledgeable Jedi in history.

I'm not entirely sure about this, but isn't Yoda stated to have a defense against every dark side technique?

Its reasonable to assume he'd be familiar with Traya's technique, and perhaps has some inkling of knowing how to defend. But I think he'd still take a major hit from Traya, I don't see her surviving the match either. Obi wan will die as a result of the drain IMO, and Windu and Yoda both partially trained but they more than likely will still have enough energy to take her out

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uh obviously. There's not even proof giga drain could tag Yoda.

It's not a LOS attack or a tennis ball. Pretty sure Nihilus didn't need iron sights to tag his foes either.

This is ridiculous thought method here.



And TK pushes are one of the few actually dodgable attacks, and is nothing like Force Drain. Again, unless you have an instance of someone dodging Force Drain, this argument is fruitless.



Traya was probably going to be able to stomp them anyways, but her drain is pretty much an instant win card in most battles. Not sure why she would solidly be above them, in the same way Sidious is well above Maul/Savage, and yet be a pleb before this trio, but I guess she lacks OMG TONS OF FEATS.



Yoda's TK against Sidious in the chancellor's office was no faster than Traya's wave of the hand, and her attack has the benefit of a one-hit KO that isn't a skillshot.

Your arguments here are rather baseless.



She trains the Exile for the express purpose of using her nature against Nihilus, so I'd hope so.

Have you even played the game?

Originally posted by Petrus
It's ludicrous to assume Yoda doesn't have a defense against Kreia's drain, when he can go against the most powerful Sith Lord in history toe-to-toe.

Even though Sidious has never used Force Drain in combat?

Should his hardly qualified title as opponent be used as evidence instead of actual demonstrated power on behalf of Yoda or Sidious for that matter? (Sids never drained a Jedi)

"DOOKU BLOCKS TULAK HORD'S TK BY VIRTUE OF BEING THE BEST JEDI IN 10K YEARS".

^ New debate technique.



No, but the onus of proof is on those asserting that he does have it, since it is explicitly a rare ability and unpracticed in the PT era. For that matter, we don't see a similar ability until well after Yoda's dead (Dark Empire) and it's used in a ritual.



... And the Jedi Order had no knowledge of this same technique back when Sion and his mooks were butchering them. True Sith of Vitiate's time had knowledge of the ability and he ate them anyways.

Unless there's proof, this wishful thinking defense mechanism doesn't hold water.



I don't know. Do you have a source?

Originally posted by carthage
Its reasonable to assume he'd be familiar with Traya's technique, and perhaps has some inkling of knowing how to defend.

Why?

This is an instance of a specific defense being needed. It was so rare Ulic's ghost had to teach Anakin Skywalker (and not Yoda). Why is everyone assuming that Yoda has the defense even though he's never shown it, never talked about it, and the need to practice it has never in his lifetime come up?



If only it worked like that.

I'm not sure of anything Traya has drained that just "got weak, but still fought on". The bodies of the Jedi trio on Dantooine are pretty much wounds in the Force themselves, bereft of all life.

That doesn't act anything like some kind of battery sap that you suggest.

Why would Skywalker not teach more Jedi about the Dark Reaper's effects after learning how to defend against it?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why would Skywalker not teach more Jedi about the Dark Reaper's effects after learning how to defend against it?

Why didn't Qui-Gon's ghost teach all of his friends how to ghost before Anakin turned into a dick?

I don't know.

I have no logical responses to your points sir. Merely the idea that Yoda is a wise and venerable Jedi, who can speak giant CGI Banes back into their coffins and that he can survive the massive force attacks of blind old women.

Windu on the other hand...

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's not a LOS attack or a tennis ball. Pretty sure Nihilus didn't need iron sights to tag his foes either.

You would be wrong. He tried to drain the exile.



No limits fallacy. Its a tangible beam. If it didn't have to make contact with the person to work there'd be no reason to use the beam in the first place.

There's also no instance of Force Drain tagging someone nearly as fast as Yoda.



What? Why would she not be solidly above the trio? She put an on guard Vrook on his ass.




Bullshit. Sidious is one of the fastest characters in the mythos, and yet he was tagged by Yoda's TK. Considering both Dooku and Grievous people slower than Sidious have been shown capable of dodging TKs, it seems likely Yoda's TK is you guessed it faster than most other's TKs.



Coming from the man who's argument hinges on a no limits fallacy. Traya draining featless mooks automatically means she can defeat the most powerful Jedi Master in history? Seems ridiculous to me. If that attack were so OP why did no other Sith Master in history try and use it? Why did Sidious not just gigadrain Yoda when he walked into his office? Why did Krayt not simply gigadrain the New Jedi Order he had access Nihilus' holocron for crying out loud.

Also you mean to tell me Yoda the Grand Master who sent Jedi to guard the ruins on Rhen Var never accessed Ulic Qel Droma's teachings?



I remember her hoping that the Exile would be able to. Seemed more like a theory than anything.




Uh yes, Dooku being one of the most and powerful Jedi in the 25,000 history of the Order and a more powerful Sith Lord means he could very likely block Tulak Hord's TK.




Or...the Dark Reaper.




Yes they did. The Dark Reaper comes to mind.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Why didn't Qui-Gon's ghost teach all of his friends how to ghost before Anakin turned into a dick?

I don't know.
Red herring, but I'll entertain this.
Qui-Gon learns to ghost while dead. That's why Yoda and Kenobi disappear when they die and Qui-Gon did not. If you notice Qui-Gon does appear via ghost briefly in Episode II, then fully in the Clone Wars on Mortis, then fully materializes (presumably) in Episode III.

Kreia didn't need to raise her hand to kill those Sith or smack the Jedi Council around. Even if Yoda does pin her to the ground, I don't see how that would stop her from using the technique.

Also, he totally can't.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Why didn't Qui-Gon's ghost teach all of his friends how to ghost before Anakin turned into a dick?

I don't know.


Originally posted by Lord Stark


Red herring, but I'll entertain this.
Qui-Gon learns to ghost while dead. That's why Yoda and Kenobi disappear when they die and Qui-Gon did not. If you notice Qui-Gon does appear via ghost briefly in Episode II, then fully in the Clone Wars on Mortis, then fully materializes (presumably) in Episode III.


It was explained in the last episodes of TCW, that Qui-Gon can only be heard, and not seen, because he never completed his Ghost training before dying. He can presumably be seen on Mortis because the Force is so strong there.

Also he seemed to be following certain after-life rules where he can only interfere to an extent. He couldn't tell Yoda who the Sith Lord was, but he could guide his Force Ghost training.

I'm also guessing Yoda was the only one powerful enough to communicate with Qui-Gon initially. Remember Yoda tells Kenobi in ROTS that he will have to teach him how to communicate with Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You would be wrong. He tried to drain the exile.

This has nothing to do with what I was saying.

You implied that the Drain could be physically dodged, even though it is never dodged in any way throughout KotOR 2. This is an unproven assertion on your part and you failed to prove it, so it can be dismissed as a possibility. Otherwise, things might have gone like this:

ANAKIN: How do I shot Dark Reaper?

ULIC: Have you tried dodging? I hear it's effective, because this ability is just like Force Lightning, which travels in a slow visible arc, and Force Push, which is TK actually shoving compressed air or something instead of actually exerting actual force on the individual, thus making it undodgable.

ANAKIN: Wait a second; why the hell would I make a Force push dodgable? The Force is a galaxy-wide presence. And if it was compressed air, why can't we see the physical effects of the displaced air? I mean, it presumably can toss a human being like a ragdoll. WTF?

ULIC: Because Star Wars writers are ****ing morons, Anakin. Now, I'm going to teach you a special ability to block the Dark Reaper, even though I never demonstrated this knowledge or ability in the primary media in which I appeared...



You keep using this term, but I don't think you know what it means. You just think it's some catch-all defense for an ability your argument can't defeat, so you dismiss it as being impractical.

Let's review the definition again:

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

This might make more sense if, in light of the definition, Force Drain was a shield we were saying could take infinite hits, or an ability that can murder infinite Jedi. But nobody's saying that. The ability explicitly kills Force users by not only sapping their connection to the Force but by sapping their life energy as well.

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."
―Kreia



It's a visual representation of a potent attack. Watch it again:

Attack just after 8:40

Hell, it's faster than the TK shown by either her or Yoda, and it's also ridiculously impossible to dodge, given that it covers the distance between them near-instantly and is made up of an arcing spider web.

I might give you the benefit of the doubt if this attack was ever physically dodged, but it's not.



There you go again, assuming it's a paintball gun or something. Unless you think Yoda will be going Mach V as soon as the fight begins, and Traya cannot possibly lock on (which again, is an unsupported assumption at best; the ability is never shown requiring a lock-on and is used successfully by a blind Sith of all things) she can TK him while he's moving and force him to react or fly into a wall.

Or if you want me to play dirty, then Traya can tag him easily, because Sidious tagged him with Force lightning before the guy could drop his staff. Might as well low-ball it, if you're going to be silly.



That's the point; she was explicitly above all of them. These were the same three Jedi who froze the Exile in stasis while giving her a lecture, and furthermore had a few minutes while Traya was backtalking them to formulate an offense/defense. And they still lost horribly.

So tell me, why are you believing that Yoda is inherently superior to a person who treated three Jedi Council members as Sidious treats named mooks like Fisto, Tiin, and Koth?



Hestizo Trace begs to differ, but that's irrelevant. Neither Sidious or Yoda show the ability to uber-dodge attacks with as little telegraphy as "I wave my hand back and forth". Yoda got tagged by Sids' lightning early on, and later while I give him due credit for soaking and redirecting superior lightning, he still lost his saber and nearly his balance from the blast.

Yoda is not infallibly fast just because he can perform tons of flips. I don't think you understand this concept very well. And this all hinges on Yoda being blitz-fast, against an attack that's near-instant.



See above dialogue about the stupidity of dodging TK, but in any case, Yoda's TK is not inherently faster. It also seems likely that you're just slinging shit out there in a vague attempt to refute the facts that you don't like, because god forbid Yoda lose a fight or anything.



http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/lovinmycaitlynn/Funny/inigo_montoya.jpg



Possibly. It's not an issue of her being conclusively more powerful than Yoda so much as him not having the precise defense for an ability she knows, that can kill someone.

Raw power alone doesn't prevent the attack. If it did, pretty sure this means Nihilus is more powerful than a planetful of Force-users, including Vandar and co, and that sounds far more ridiculous than what you take objection to here.



Quite a few did. Tulak Hord, IIRC, is noted as draining Jedi, Malak used it on fallen Jedi, Vitiate used it and some of his circle may have, the ancient True Sith did (Ragnos' sceptre drains, as does Sadow's Dark Reaper), Sidious uses it via ritual in DE, and Kun used it via ritual in TSW. It seems to be an ancient art, and not well understood to most, which is why anytime someone starts using it, they immediately catapult to the top of the Sith food chain.



The simplest answer is that GL never intended for Sidious to possess such a power. But an EU answer would be that potentially Sidious didn't know the ability well enough to attempt it, or at that point in his life lacked the mastery of it.

DE supports that he learned of it, and his commentary on Book of the Sith implies that he had great knowledge of the ancients. But he is never shown using it in a combat situation. The idea that he would keep this ability in reserve is simply ridiculous, since it buffs the user (hence why Vitiate becomes a Force titan after noming his whole planet and then some). Given Sidious' lack of use for lots of Force-wielding followers and glee in Force-dominating people, I'm pretty sure he'd be eating people left, right and center if he had the chance.

Ockham's Razor lends to the conclusion that either he didn't know the ability during RotS, lacked the specific knowledge to use it in combat (again, hence the later ritual), or he was afraid to use it for some unknown reason. The idea that he knew it, but didn't use it to spite himself is simply retarded and should not be entertained.



The Gatekeeper of the holocron didn't like Krayt. A scan here made that abundantly clear.



This would imply that he communed with Ulic's ghost, since the spirit itself gave Anakin the knowledge. Again, you're reaching here. Either you have definitive proof, or you have baseless conjectures. You can't have both.



Considering she's the one who taught Nihilus to refine his drain and taught Sion and his mooks the same, I'd say her knowledge on the matter is bordering on expert.

But this was a red herring in the first place. Traya would never stupidly drain Nihilus, and it was foolish to even bring it up.



Considering Tulak Hord dragged Endar Spire-sized ships out of orbit and killed whole armies of Jedi with just his cleft-face man-servant for company, I highly doubt this. You also completely missed the point of the example.

Perhaps, like Vitiate's lack of dazzling esoteric techniques in his confrontations with Revan and the player in TOR, Sidious had no general need for such things?



Allegedly and through unknown circumstances.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
If that attack were so OP why did no other Sith Master in history try and use it? Why did Sidious not just gigadrain Yoda when he walked into his office? Why did Krayt not simply gigadrain the New Jedi Order he had access Nihilus' holocron for crying out loud.

Avellone taking about this in an interview. The Ancient Sith knew about the technique but didn't make widespread use of it because using it turns you into well, Nihilus, an addict who is a slave to the ability and compleetly unable to actually capitalise on his power. Furthermore Traya makes it a point to destroy knowledge of the technique in the game. She gives a speech to the Exile about the technique being ultra dangerous and that's why they need to destroy the Triumvirate and ensure that no-one ever uses it again. Which she actually does through getting the Exile to kill them all.

Sidious would be too smart to turn into a crazed junkie just to win one fight. Even if he did know the technique.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps, like Vitiate's lack of dazzling esoteric techniques in his confrontations with Revan and the player in TOR, Sidious had no general need for such things?

Yeah, the idea of draining your foe dry, when it's well within your capabilities and is ridiculously easy, is entirely undesirable and therefore Sith chivalry will ensue.

It's still speculation. I granted that Sidious knows of the ability by DE, enough to drain a planet even, but he never shows it in RotS which is the whole point against M. Yoda's assertion here.

Even if Sidious knew the ability and didn't use it because he hated how it tasted or whatever doesn't change Yoda's situation here at all. It's a red herring.



Admittedly, but given it's some of the only evidence we have available about the man, any speculation on our behalf has to consider the possibility that it may be correct. IF it is, THEN it seems likely Hord would chuck Dooku around like a doll. Given that a pissed off Sidious or Savage can TK Dooku, Tulak Hord probably wouldn't break a sweat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Avellone taking about this in an interview. The Ancient Sith knew about the technique but didn't make widespread use of it because using it turns you into well, Nihilus, an addict who is a slave to the ability and compleetly unable to actually capitalise on his power. Furthermore Traya makes it a point to destroy knowledge of the technique in the game. She gives a speech to the Exile about the technique being ultra dangerous and that's why they need to destroy the Triumvirate and ensure that no-one ever uses it again. Which she actually does through getting the Exile to kill them all.

Sidious would be too smart to turn into a crazed junkie just to win one fight. Even if he did know the technique.

Did not remember this, but this would explain why the ancient Sith just don't drain each other from their thrones all day. However, only Nihilus is shown becoming a wound, and that's specifically because of the accident on Malachor V, so the explanation isn't perfect.

Ah, but incidents such as Malachor are the only way to learn the technique, remember?

"It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." - Kreia.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yeah, the idea of draining your foe dry, when it's well within your capabilities and is ridiculously easy, is entirely undesirable and therefore Sith chivalry will ensue.

It's still speculation. I granted that Sidious knows of the ability by DE, enough to drain a planet even, but he never shows it in RotS which is the whole point against M. Yoda's assertion here.

Even if Sidious knew the ability and didn't use it because he hated how it tasted or whatever doesn't change Yoda's situation here at all. It's a red herring.

I don't disagree. I'm just saying that we can apply the same paradigm to non-Sidious characters and come to a similarly uncomfortable outcome. I don't see Vitiate, another character extremely well-versed in dark side lore, spamming his enemies with a gamut of ancient and esoteric techniques... even when they'd really come in handy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Admittedly, but given it's some of the only evidence we have available about the man, any speculation on our behalf has to consider the possibility that it may be correct. IF it is, THEN it seems likely Hord would chuck Dooku around like a doll. Given that a pissed off Sidious or Savage can TK Dooku, Tulak Hord probably wouldn't break a sweat.

As Stark pointed out, though, Dooku is one of the most powerful Sith Lords who ever lived. And Savage's feat, while impressive, was an extremely rare moment of rage in a fight that Dooku was otherwise dominating. I don't discount the idea that a handful of Sith Lords have the power to humiliate Dooku, but I'd need to see some serious evidence.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that we can apply the same paradigm to non-Sidious characters and come to a similarly uncomfortable outcome. I don't see Vitiate, another character extremely well-versed in dark side lore, spamming his enemies with a gamut of ancient and esoteric techniques... even when they'd really come in handy.

True.

But then again, it'd be like a cripple fighting Superman. The game would suck if Vitiate just ate the opposing player party (although I admit it would be troll-tastic on behalf of the devs). Of course, this is the same game that has muggles dodging TK and killing Sith, an idea which just reeks of gameplay = fairplay.

The biggest difference is that between the two, Vitiate is known to have the ability to use Force Drain, as he has done so in the past. Prior to DE, Sidious has never shown the ability. Hence, it seems less reasonable to assume he is holding it in reserve than what is obviously the case with Vitiate.

It could also be that, as Neph pointed out, Force Drain is the meth of the Dark Side, and using it too much is bad even for Vitiate. The ancients seemed keen on using artifacts to do it instead of themselves. When Kun and Sidious both used a drain, they used a ritual with amplifiers and such, perhaps as a means to avoid personal damage or corruption (and DE implied that Sids was corrupted anyways for excessive Dark Side usage).

The only individuals we see using Drain without artifacts include the Sith Triumvirate. Even Malak was on the Star Forge when using his.



Until TOR: Tulak Hord Lives expansion rolls out, you'll have to remain disappointed. Dooku's TK is not infallible, and Sidious' dominance of him suggests he has a hard cap that is lower than previously suspected. However, pulling a large starship from orbit is more impressive than anything Dooku has accomplished. If the feat is genuine, and at this point we have nothing to contradict the Dashade's account, then it stands to reason his TK is simply too immense for Dooku.

This ignores the fact that, according to all available evidence, he would carve Dooku up in seconds.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
True.

But then again, it'd be like a cripple fighting Superman. The game would suck if Vitiate just ate the opposing player party (although I admit it would be troll-tastic on behalf of the devs). Of course, this is the same game that has muggles dodging TK and killing Sith, an idea which just reeks of gameplay = fairplay.

Well, sure, but we can apply that same PIS paradigm to Sidious as well.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The biggest difference is that between the two, Vitiate is known to have the ability to use Force Drain, as he has done so in the past. Prior to DE, Sidious has never shown the ability. Hence, it seems less reasonable to assume he is holding it in reserve than what is obviously the case with Vitiate.

Palpatine was using Force drain on a planetary scale on Byss prior to Dark Empire; Dark Empire was merely the first source to make us aware of his use of it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It could also be that, as Neph pointed out, Force Drain is the meth of the Dark Side, and using it too much is bad even for Vitiate. The ancients seemed keen on using artifacts to do it instead of themselves. When Kun and Sidious both used a drain, they used a ritual with amplifiers and such, perhaps as a means to avoid personal damage or corruption (and DE implied that Sids was corrupted anyways for excessive Dark Side usage).

Yeah, Neph and I had this discussion a while back. Which is actually why Sidious's use of it is so impressive. There is no source that I'm aware of that ascribes his drain to a ritual or with amplifiers. He merely used it cleverly and economically, over the course of what I presume to be years or decades (the extent of time is never confirmed).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Until TOR: Tulak Hord Lives expansion rolls out, you'll have to remain disappointed.

As will you, because I'm not inclined to accept hearsay and legends as evidence... unless I can do so for Sidious, in which case, all's fair.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dooku's TK is not infallible, and Sidious' dominance of him suggests he has a hard cap that is lower than previously suspected.

I never claimed that Dooku's TK is infallible. But you need to accept that simply because Sidious can do X doesn't mean that anyone in the history of time can replicate it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
However, pulling a large starship from orbit is more impressive than anything Dooku has accomplished. If the feat is genuine, and at this point we have nothing to contradict the Dashade's account, then it stands to reason his TK is simply too immense for Dooku.

The problem is that that's not how debate works. An unverified legend is not automatically taken as the gospel simply because there stands no immediate proof to the contrary. You would not, I think, be willing to accept such an unverified legend if, say, it benefited Sidious. Therefore I'm unsure as to why I should give Tulak Hord the benefit of the doubt here.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This ignores the fact that, according to all available evidence, he would carve Dooku up in seconds.

You'll need to prove that.

Its no legend. Tulak Hords personal bodyguard tells the Inquisitor about it.

Ah. Correction: an unverified claim, then.

Better. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

There's not an appropriate emote for that. I was trying to find a gif of a conciliatory nod, but it has eluded me.

Its totally true btw. Khem has no reason to lie.

Does Khem worship or idolize Tulak? Does he speak of him reverently?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This has nothing to do with what I was saying.

You implied that the Drain could be physically dodged, even though it is never dodged in any way throughout KotOR 2. This is an unproven assertion on your part and you failed to prove it, so it can be dismissed as a possibility. Otherwise, things might have gone like this:

ANAKIN: How do I shot Dark Reaper?

ULIC: Have you tried dodging? I hear it's effective, because this ability is just like Force Lightning, which travels in a slow visible arc, and Force Push, which is TK actually shoving compressed air or something instead of actually exerting actual force on the individual, thus making it undodgable.

ANAKIN: Wait a second; why the hell would I make a Force push dodgable? The Force is a galaxy-wide presence. And if it was compressed air, why can't we see the physical effects of the displaced air? I mean, it presumably can toss a human being like a ragdoll. WTF?

ULIC: Because Star Wars writers are ****ing morons, Anakin. Now, I'm going to teach you a special ability to block the Dark Reaper, even though I never demonstrated this knowledge or ability in the primary media in which I appeared...

Game mechanics are non-canon. And if we wanna go with that. Mandalore can resist Nihilus' force drain.



"Giga drain can't be beat" is a no limits fallacy. The idea that because Kreia an in verse source says 'there is no defense' and defeats three Jedi Masters with it it is unblockable is a no limits fallacy. You are literally saying there is no limit to who it can kill in the Star Wars universe.



Uh no. If I say "There is no defense against this gun" and then kill three people with it. That doesn't mean no one in say a fictional universe cannot dodge/ counter it.



What's your point?




Your point? Yoda and Mace push an army of droids across a much larger distance in the same time. Also Yoda tagged Sidious...who can make his arms look like 24 arms at the same time. Kreia has nothing like this.



The attack has never been used against someone as fast as Yoda, Mace, or hell even Kenobi so your point is annulled.




Yoda is far faster than Kreia, her TK isn't going to tag him.



Sidious' lightning is faster than Kreia has ever displayed.



Allow me to make this simpler for you. In the history of the Star Wars universe Force Drain has never been used against someone more powerful than themselves. Assuming that it will work the same way is pretty ridiculous.




Because Fisto Tiin and Kolar are the most celebrated swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000 year history, not 3 Jedi Council members during a time there were less than 100 students left.




In an inferior position. Sidious outmanuvered him. Also Sidious' lightning tagging Yoda is a feat for Sidious' lightning not a negative for Yoda.



Yoda matched Sidious blow for blow and disarmed him. He is as fast or even faster than Sidious...the man who can do 24+ blows per second.



Lol no. TKs are faster.
For example Grievous can dodge Mook 1 and Mook 2's force push, but cannot dodge Shaak Ti's.




Let me say this again. Force Drain has never been shown to be capable of killing someone more powerful than the user, nor has it been shown to tag someone as fast as Yoda. So the burden of proof is on you to prove it can tag Yoda, or to show me an instance where Kreia has killed someone she



That means absolutely nothing. You act as if the planetful of Force Users even knew they were being attacked.



Not well understood is the operative phrase here. Malak had to use it on people who could not fight back. In fact that example begs the question, why didn't Malak simply drain Revan when he approached him? Why did Vitiate not just drain Revan when he walked into his throne room?




Completely defeats the purpose of Sidious who was the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith Lord in history.

Unlikely, Plagueis knew full well that Vitiate was the closest Sith Lord in history to discovering the secret to immortality. It stands to reason he knew exactly how he reached immortality and passed that onto Sidious. This is likely where Palpatine reached his conclusion that body swapping is the way to immortality.




Nihilus spoke in a dialogue he couldn't understand.




Again there was a Jedi Temple on Rhen Var. Yoda stationed Jedi on the world to protect it for a reason. And if anyone in the order did commune with Ulic's spirit it would be Yoda.




Why is it ridiculous that Traya would never drain Nihilus but Nihilus would drain the Exile. Nihilus was the Lord of Hunger and the ultimate master of the technique in the Triumvirate.




You can doubt it all you want. Tyranus is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, and its quite possible his cleft face man servant exaggerated his feats.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Game mechanics are non-canon. And if we wanna go with that. Mandalore can resist Nihilus' force drain.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The use of the Drain in cutscenes is not "game mechanics". Stop using vague terms to invalidate canon which threatens your argument and be fair about things.

The Drain is used in cutscenes.

It is not dodged ever, and in fact is represented as being near-instant, or at least too fast for even Force users to simply evade.

There is nothing to suggest a proper defense besides being a wound in the Force or knowing how to emulate one.

Conclusion: Force Drain can adequately tag Yoda, who has been nearly squashed by senate pods and tagged solidly with lightning which was at least comparable in speed, if not slower.



No, I'm not. You're strawmanning. I've said repeatedly that it requires a specific defense, which you have not conclusively shown Yoda to have, so it seems to be a huge leap in logic to assert that Yoda wins by virtue of... being Yoda.

The statement "Gigadrain can't be beat" which Neph said, was hyperbole. We've both acknowledged it can be beat, but you haven't demonstrated that it can be beat by Yoda.



Strawman.



To reinforce that the Sith use it to kill, not just 'make weak'.



Lol.

24 arms at the same time? Do you have any more hyperbolic nonsense for me? In G-canon film source material, I can visibly see Sidious, and he doesn't have 24 arms. Stop using Stover-style hyperbole to fluff up Sids in an attempt to make Yoda look better and ignore my argument.

1. You haven't shown that the Drain can be avoided.
2. Evidence doesn't even imply the possibility.
3. Yoda has been tagged by stuff slower than Traya's Drain with obvious prep and telegraphy (Senate pod, anyone?)



No, it's not. You're just simply asserting that they are too fast and then using this unsupported assumption as grounds for ignoring a feat which you don't like.



Kreia doesn't fight with Ataru. In fact, I think she badmouths it as a form in-game. In any case, her power is so good she doesn't have to flip around like a demented monkey to hammer away at people.

You are so impressed by Yoda's flippy shit that you completely ignore all the times he's tagged by stuff slower than her TK/Drain.



Proof by assertion/wishful thinkin. Rewatch the clip.



Proof by assertion. Implication that Nihilus is more powerful than billions of Force users, and Traya is more powerful than 6-10 Sith mooks and 3 Elite Jedi Masters.

There's never a correlation between raw power and resisting Force Drain.



No, they're just survivors from the Great Sith Wars and Jedi Civil Wars, who survived the purges of Revan, Malak, and the Sith Triumvirate, masters of all of the lightsaber forms, known demostraters of Force Sever, Force Stun, Mass Force Stun, and considered great threats by their enemies.

But feel free to fluff up the competition.



Lol.



Sidious never does 24+ blows/second, ever.



Proof by assertion.



Proof by assertion. Shifting the burden of proof.



They did. The entire planet was aware of him when he spoke. But he was able to level most of the planet and kill all of them anyways, save for Visas whom he spared (and she was nearly dead all the same).



Probably because Malak's ability to drain may have had to do with the Star Forge, and it was insufficient enough to drain active, fighting Jedi.



Why would he? Far better to mind-rape him and make him an ally.



So you're disputing that GL didn't want Force Drain in the PT series? Or just assuming on behalf of your bias again?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Unlikely, Plagueis knew full well that Vitiate was the closest Sith Lord in history to discovering the secret to immortality.

Except that Vitiate and Krayt's methods were far superior. Technically, Kun's plan almost worked, and Sadow lived for an extremely long time. Ragnos' walking stick could revive his spirit and presumably his body.



Red herring. Relevance?



The tongue of the ancient Sith. And yet Nihilus was able to impart his thoughts and instructions to Visas.

Because he wanted to do so.



But you haven't proven that he did so, at all. So it remains an unproven assertion.



Because she knew what draining him would do, and she isn't stupid.

Not sure why you would insist on this, despite evidence to the contrary and wasting more time with red herrings.

Traya taught Nihilus how to Drain; his nature simply allowed him to use it on an unprecedented scale.



MOST POWERFUL EVAH = definitive debate technique.

If I kept a tally of your fallacies, I'd need a damn spreadsheet.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Does Khem worship or idolize Tulak? Does he speak of him reverently?

Khem adores Hord, but Khem only respects superior strength. It's not like Tulak Hord used to nibble his ear and he just can't resist talking his old master up.

mmm



131

Seriously, what's your beef with film-oriented grandiosity? It's looking very much that, for a guy who professes to hate wank, you only hate wank when it's not surrounding an EU character.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Khem adores Hord, but Khem only respects superior strength. It's not like Tulak Hord used to nibble his ear and he just can't resist talking his old master up.

And while Hord may indeed possess superior strength to Khem, there's no reason to conclude that Khem is beyond exaggerating when it comes to those whom he idolizes.

If anything, it would only serve to make Khem himself more impressive: Yeah, the only guy I've ever prostrated myself before was SO L33T THAT HE COULD YANK STARSHIPS OUT OF THE SKY LOL SEE HOW MUCH OF A BADASS I AM?!

I mean, again, we could do the same thing with Dooku. Dooku, arrogant elitist that he is, respects superior strength, does he not? So are we to take everything he says and thinks about Sidious as the gospel?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm



131

Seriously, what's your beef with film-oriented grandiosity? It's looking very much that, for a guy who professes to hate wank, you only hate wank when it's not surrounding an EU character.

So instead of actually cite some kind of specific issue with my post, you just bait me from the sidelines? At least have the balls to be reasonable, instead of trolling me while I duke it out with M. Yoda here.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And while Hord may indeed possess superior strength to Khem, there's no reason to conclude that Khem is beyond exaggerating when it comes to those whom he idolizes.

If anything, it would only serve to make Khem himself more impressive: Yeah, the only guy I've ever prostrated myself before was SO L33T THAT HE COULD YANK STARSHIPS OUT OF THE SKY LOL SEE HOW MUCH OF A BADASS I AM?!

I mean, again, we could do the same thing with Dooku. Dooku, arrogant elitist that he is, respects superior strength, does he not? So are we to take everything he says and thinks about Sidious as the gospel?

Your point might mean something if there was good reason to be suspicious of Khem's statements. There aren't. Tulak Hord's abilities are not the subject of live-action material, so everything about him must be extrapolated from anecdotal evidence and hearsay, or else nothing can be known about him.

No one asserts "Tulak Hord is absolutely 100% whatever Khem says". But they do say "If Khem is correct, and I find no reason at this point to really challenge his views, then Tulak Hord is an effin' beast".

I get that you can't accept that kind of evidence. But at the same time I won't validate your stance by pretending the evidence is utterly unbelievable. Your opinion might have more weight if you had actually played the game, or shown sufficient knowledge of all of Khem's dialogue and how it's portrayed; you don't. So you're being skeptical of evidence which says something you don't like, from source material you haven't personally reviewed. It'd be like reading your movie review about a movie you heard about from someone else, which you had already decided you didn't want to see.

Real enlightening.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Your point might mean something if there was good reason to be suspicious of Khem's statements. There aren't. Tulak Hord's abilities are not the subject of live-action material, so everything about him must be extrapolated from anecdotal evidence and hearsay, or else nothing can be known about him.

No one asserts "Tulak Hord is absolutely 100% whatever Khem says". But they do say "If Khem is correct, and I find no reason at this point to really challenge his views, then Tulak Hord is an effin' beast".

I get that you can't accept that kind of evidence. But at the same time I won't validate your stance by pretending the evidence is utterly unbelievable. Your opinion might have more weight if you had actually played the game, or shown sufficient knowledge of all of Khem's dialogue and how it's portrayed; you don't. So you're being skeptical of evidence which says something you don't like, from source material you haven't personally reviewed. It'd be like reading your movie review about a movie you heard about from someone else, which you had already decided you didn't want to see.

Real enlightening.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not well understood is the operative phrase here. Malak had to use it on people who could not fight back. In fact that example begs the question, why didn't Malak simply drain Revan when he approached him? Why did Vitiate not just drain Revan when he walked into his throne room?

Presumably because it wouldn't be effective. I think you are confused, there is a clear difference between a regular Force Drain that the majority of practicioners use and Nihilus and Kreia's version of the technique.

There are numerous different kinds of Force Drain and they are all different. Some drain life and vitality like Bane's version in DoE, some simply siphon a little Force to rekindle their own. Nihilus' version is very different than the other versions, completely sapping all Force from a target and leaving a Void in the Force. In Unseen, Unheard his technique is shown to resemble a vast black cloud rather than how it is depicted in the game as orange lightning. The Exile and the Triumvirate Assassins use this technique as well in ways completely unique to the ways that Force Drain is used everywhere else.

Krayt doesn't form Force bonds and dominate the wills of those around him, siphoning their power into his own or bring his allies back to life through force of will. He does not get consumed by his hunger and start draining everything in sight. Because his Force Drain technique is different. Presumably so is Malak's and Vitiates (which was a ritual). Malak, Krayt, Sidious, Bane, Vitiate etc cannot instakill any opponent because they do not possess the same ability that Nihilus and Kreia does.


Edit: Vitiates technique is very very similar though and he actually does need to feed his hunger in some manner. He really is a complete rip-off.

First, I addressed your argument on the previous page and you have yet to respond.

Second, you pull stunts like these all the damn time with everyone else. The times you've snarked and bemoaned about PT/movie bias is endless. I'm simply doing to you what you've done to me and others time and time again.

So I suggest you grow a pair and dispense with the double standards. If you can dish it out, you can sure as hell take it.



And until such a time that you would fairly consider anecdotal evidence and hearsay about characters other than the EU characters about which you fantasize, we'll talk. Until then, I'll be a constant pain in your ass about this. Your double standards are unacceptable bro.



And yet there are reasons to challenge his views. The same reasons you used to challenge Dooku's worshipful, extravagant opinions of Sidious.

Welcome to the No Double Standard Zone, bro.



http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/24086000/ngbbs5001ce1b8a786.jpg

Your anger is gratifying; I know I've struck a nerve.

Anyway, I don't have to have personally played the game to question your arguments or to poke holes in it, just as an attorney doesn't need to have medical expertise to question a medical examiner.

Use your head for something other than a seat cushion, bro.

Move aside the fact that Kreia has never used FD on an opponent as fast as Yoda, more importantly, he's never used it on an opponent as powerful. I just don't buy that she can drain the shit out of anyone she wants, even less so someone who is unquestionably ages ahead of her in terms of combat, power, skill, technique, swordsmanship, knowledge, etc.

Besides, Jinn taught Anakin how to defend against the DR and Yoda's been talking to the guy ever since he died. You think he didn't share this knowledge with him at some point? I certainly think it is highly likely that he did.

^Precisely. Its like asserting that because Kriea drained those 3 Jedi Masters she can also replicate Nihilus' feat. They have different levels of power.

Originally posted by Petrus
Besides, Jinn taught Anakin how to defend against the DR

No he didn't.

You're right. It was Ulic. Didn't someone said before that it was Jinn?