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Captain America has Thor's strength and durability

Thor gets his hammer
Cap gets his shield

Both are going all out

Thor has been a warrior for hundreds and hundreds of years and has murdered his way thru shit that would make Cap'n tremble. No reason he doesn't win.

Originally posted by COG Veteran
Thor has been a warrior for hundreds and hundreds of years and has murdered his way thru shit that would make Cap'n tremble. No reason he doesn't win.

But Cap has is much faster in combat. One hit with Caps shield and Thor should go to sleep

Originally posted by Firefly218
But Cap has is much faster in combat. One hit with Caps shield and Thor should go to sleep
Nah. Kurse threw that boulder of solid rock the size of several houses on Thor and he was still conscous and trying to fight back. And Kurse strength > Thor strength.

It's not about the strength of the attacker in this case, it's about the strength of the substance. Caps shield is way more dangerous than a boulder. Caps shield tanked the Mjolnir, and that is when Cap DIDN'T have Thor strength.

Even so, no proof Cap could level Thor. He has undoubtedly faced opponents that use shields. Cap is hundreds of years behind on combat experience.

Originally posted by COG Veteran
Even so, no proof Cap could level Thor. He has undoubtedly faced opponents that use shields. Cap is hundreds of years behind on combat experience.

You're right that cap doesn't have as much experience. But I have to disagree with the first part of your comment. There is no proof Thor has faced opponents who wield anything even close to as strong and durable as caps shield.

Just hitting Cap's shield caused Thor to fly backwards

Remember when you said strength doesn't matter? It still does. Like I stated earlier, Kurse was going all out on Thor and kicking his ass, and Thor was never KO'd, though has was hurtin for certain when Kurse was punching his head thru the ground. So even if Cap has equalized strength and durability it wont give him an edge over thor anyway. If I had the body of Anderson Silva, equal in every way and we fought, I'd still get raped.

Originally posted by Firefly218
You're right that cap doesn't have as much experience. But I have to disagree with the first part of your comment. There is no proof Thor has faced opponents who wield anything even close to as strong and durable as caps shield.

Just hitting Cap's shield caused Thor to fly backwards No, the force of Thor's strike being rebounded cause Thor to fly backwards.

There is little difference between being hit by caps shield or a normal shield. Cap's shield being more durable doesn't suddenly increase the force unless it is also much more dense (Which it probably isn't, considering how light it apparently is).

This is ignoring that Thor isn't just strong or durable, he still has command of the weather that Cap has no answer to.

Thor wins.

Even if strength and durability are equal, Thor still has an advantage of weather manipulation and flight. And even if you remove Thor's other powers, Mjolnir is just a more devastating weapon than Cap's shield. So bloodlusted fight, Thor wins.

Now if you made it pure h2h, then that would be intersting. And I could make an argument for both parties.

Originally posted by FrothByte
And even if you remove Thor's other powers, Mjolnir > Cap's shield.

I'd strongly disagree here. Cap's shield is great at both offense and defense. Plus, if Thor hits it hard enough he is knocked back.

But yeah, Thor wins this thread.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, the force of Thor's strike being rebounded cause Thor to fly backwards.

There is little difference between being hit by caps shield or a normal shield. Cap's shield being more durable doesn't suddenly increase the force unless it is also much more dense (Which it probably isn't, considering how light it apparently is).

This is ignoring that Thor isn't just strong or durable, he still has command of the weather that Cap has no answer to.

Thor wins.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, the force of Thor's strike being rebounded cause Thor to fly backwards.

There is little difference between being hit by caps shield or a normal shield. Cap's shield being more durable doesn't suddenly increase the force unless it is also much more dense (Which it probably isn't, considering how light it apparently is).

This is ignoring that Thor isn't just strong or durable, he still has command of the weather that Cap has no answer to.

Thor wins.

I agree.

Also Cap isn't faster, as Thor has better speed feats.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, the force of Thor's strike being rebounded cause Thor to fly backwards.

There is little difference between being hit by caps shield or a normal shield. Cap's shield being more durable doesn't suddenly increase the force unless it is also much more dense (Which it probably isn't, considering how light it apparently is).

This is ignoring that Thor isn't just strong or durable, he still has command of the weather that Cap has no answer to.

Thor wins.

Actually the force of the shield depends on it's weight and acceleration (when cap throws it) , obviously this shield is very heavy and cap is strong enough to handle it So it definitely does more damage than normal shields.

Originally posted by DrDeadpool
Actually the force of the shield depends on it's weight and acceleration (when cap throws it) , obviously this shield is very heavy and cap is strong enough to handle it So it definitely does more damage than normal shields.

What?

As far as I know, the entire point of the shield (In like every interpretation ever) has always been that it's very light weight, perfectly balanced, and yet basically indestructible and able to reflect nearly any amount of force.

IIRC, we even see normal characters lifting it up in his first movie.

Cap is far more skilled, and faster at H2H.

You are a homosexual if you deny this. Just telling you beforehand.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What?

As far as I know, the entire point of the shield (In like every interpretation ever) has always been that it's very light weight, perfectly balanced, and yet basically indestructible and able to reflect nearly any amount of force.

IIRC, we even see normal characters lifting it up in his first movie.

If it weren't "heavy", it would not send people flying back when hit because the speed just isn't there.

It's not just a little frisbee anyone can backhand (Winter Soldier is likely enhanced).

F= ma

"a" is visibly not high enough to explain impact / "F".

Therefore, "m" is also considerable.

Originally posted by Placidity
Cap is far more skilled, and faster at H2H.

You are a homosexual if you deny this. Just telling you beforehand.

I'd agree with faster, but far more skilled? I don't think so. Just because Cap can do fancier kicks doesn't mean he's better skilled. Thor has better h2h feats against better opposition.

So what is Cap going to do when Thor goes Mach V and sucks him up in a tornado?

/thread.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'd agree with faster, but far more skilled? I don't think so. Just because Cap can do fancier kicks doesn't mean he's better skilled. Thor has better h2h feats against better opposition.

Watch Thor fight scene.

Then watch Cap fight scene.

The lower tier characters like Cap, Widow and Hawkeye all have a place on the team because of their extraordinary skill.

If this thread was Cap vs Thor, giving human Thor only Cap's strength/durability, people might think differently about it.

Not really, as that would make it even easier for Thor to take out Cap with his other abilities.

Originally posted by Placidity
Watch Thor fight scene.

Then watch Cap fight scene.

The lower tier characters like Cap, Widow and Hawkeye all have a place on the team because of their extraordinary skill.

If this thread was Cap vs Thor, giving human Thor only Cap's strength/durability, people might think differently about it.

Cap regularly beats up guys that are far weaker than him. He beat up Hydra guys, but that's not really impressive considering that he has a huge physical advantage over them. He beat up Chitauri, but again not really impressive since Chitauri didn't show any enhance strength or whatever, considering that BW also had no trouble muscling them around.

When Thor beat up the SHIELD agents, he was also only human. He didn't have a physical advantage over them like Cap did over Hydra soldiers. In a deleted scene in Thor TDW, Thor took on 4-5 fellow Asgardian guards. The guards were armed, he was not, and he still beat the crap out of them. Thor also took on multiple Frost Giants easily, and Frost giants are not exactly weak.

Basically, Thor is used to beating up guys who are more or less within his same strength class. Cap usually only beats up guys a lot weaker than him. The only time he went up against someone in his strength class was against Red Skull and he struggled with that.

It's not who he beats up, its how he beats them up and how he takes out many in an effective, efficient and fast manner.

Lets just say, if Thor was given Cap's strength/durability (and lets say he got used to his new human-ness), and sent in to fight the same guys, he wouldn't do nearly as well. Might not even make it.

Cap on the other hand, given Thor's powers would do fairly well against Thor's enemies if he got used to wielding the hammer.

Given that a human level Thor walked through 90% of the shield agents he fought...why wouldn't he do even better with Cap level stats?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Given that a human level Thor walked through 90% of the shield agents he fought...why wouldn't he do even better with Cap level stats?

Because they weren't trying to kill him. Maybe.

And if you would like to use that feat, Cap would leave him in the dust. Complete brawler style, slow and still relied on his superior strength.

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Originally posted by Placidity
Because they weren't trying to kill him. Maybe.

And if you would like to use that feat, Cap would leave him in the dust. Complete brawler style - still relied on his superior strength.

So your argument is that the Shield agents were holding back against an unknown guy that broke into their base?

Originally posted by Silent Master
So your argument is that the Shield agents were holding back against an unknown guy that broke into their base?

Of course. Otherwise he would have received a bullet to the head. Or an arrow in the crotch.

Originally posted by Placidity
Of course. Otherwise he would have received a bullet to the head. Or an arrow in the crotch.

So your proof that they were holding back in hth is that they didn't use ranged weapons?

Originally posted by Silent Master
So your proof that they were holding back in hth is that they didn't use ranged weapons?


No, you sneaky little manipulator.

I said he wouldn't do well, or even survive against Cap's enemies which were trying to KILL him with guns, flame-throwers etc etc.

YOU said that because Thor beat up 2 or 3 goons (you used 90% instead of giving absolute numbers - another sneak tactic) you make out to be super elite agents proved that Thor would do just as well.

The comparison is completely invalid.

You also implied that the agents WERE trying to KILL him because "an was an unknown guy broke into their base". Of course you were WRONG - they weren't trying to kill him. If they were, he would've been shot on sight. I never said they were holding back H2H.

Do you ever debate honestly?

Why wouldn't he do as well though, he has enough skill to walk through the vast majority of Shield agents with just human level strength and even beat one that appeared to be both stronger and more durable than him after a short fight.

Originally posted by Placidity
If it weren't "heavy", it would not send people flying back when hit because the speed just isn't there.

It's not just a little frisbee anyone can backhand (Winter Soldier is likely enhanced).

F= ma

"a" is visibly not high enough to explain impact / "F".

Therefore, "m" is also considerable.

Eh, no. This is completely oversimplifying a very complex problem. After all, a object with a constant velocity (a=0) can hit someone with more force than an accelerating object. When calculating a collision and more specifically a punch much more has to be taken into consideration than velocity and mass.

Now, you can use said equation to figure out the force of the shield bash. But it depends on the mass and acceleration of the object that is hit, in this case the person sent flying.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Why wouldn't he do as well though, he has enough skill to walk through the vast majority of Shield agents with just human level strength and even beat one that appeared to be both stronger and more durable than him after a short fight.

1. Thor was still stronger than a normal human. I think are a few scenes where he can't be restrained by a several men - Thor overpowers them with his strength, not skill. He also gets hit by a car twice, and there is no damage.

2. Nothing can be said of the skill of the SHIELD agents except they looked rather unimpressive. You are right to say Cap's enemies did not display any noteworthy skill either, but they compensated by using guns/grenades/flamethrowers etc. Thor has never displayed the kind of skill or speed to negotiate such a situation.

3. Cap would've one-shot the "big guy".

Originally posted by ares834
Eh, no. This is completely oversimplifying a very complex problem. After all, a object with a constant velocity (a=0) can hit someone with more force than an accelerating object. When calculating a collision and more specifically a punch much more has to be taken into consideration than velocity and mass.

Now, you can use said equation to figure out the force of the shield bash. But it depends on the mass and acceleration of the object that is hit, in this case the person sent flying.

Doesn't matter.

Neither acceleration nor velocity/speed was sufficiently high to cause such impact for a low mass object.

You can use momentum if you'd like. m1v1=m2v2

Even though I mentioned it, its not like I'm saying real life physics counts for everything, but IMO it was not depicted to be super light.

1) There is no evidence that Thor was stronger than a normal human his size, I can easily post half a dozen youtube clips of multiple people having trouble restraining someone.

2) They were stated to be some of the best trained in the world

3) Because Cap has superhuman strength.

Originally posted by Placidity
No, you sneaky little manipulator.

I said he wouldn't do well, or even survive against Cap's enemies which were trying to KILL him with guns, flame-throwers etc etc.

YOU said that because Thor beat up 2 or 3 goons (you used 90% instead of giving absolute numbers - another sneak tactic) you make out to be super elite agents proved that Thor would do just as well.

The comparison is completely invalid.

You also implied that the agents WERE trying to KILL him because "an was an unknown guy broke into their base". Of course you were WRONG - they weren't trying to kill him. If they were, he would've been shot on sight. I never said they were holding back H2H.

Do you ever debate honestly?

Hold on. Are you telling me that your proof of Cap's superior h2h skill is because he beat up hydra soldiers who were using guns and flame throwers against him?

Care to at least provide examples of Cap easily beating opponents who were trying to melee with him?

Originally posted by Silent Master
1) There is no evidence that Thor was stronger than a normal human his size, I can easily post half a dozen youtube clips of multiple people having trouble restraining someone.

2) They were stated to be some of the best trained in the world

3) Because Cap has superhuman strength.


1. You neglected to explain how a normal would not be hurt after being hit with a car, twice.


2. On-screen feats in most cases over-rule statement's made by characters - that is, they fought like goons. And the skill level that Coulson refers to is relative. Were they as skilled as Captain America? Were they as skilled as Black Widow? Hawkeye? Does being most skilled in your own movie automatically means you are as skilled as someone else that is the most skilled in another movie?

3. True. Even though I believe Thor had above-human strength too. But ignoring that for now - "big guy" wouldn't land a single hit on Cap.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Hold on. Are you telling me that your proof of Cap's superior h2h skill is because he beat up hydra soldiers who were using guns and flame throwers against him?


No, the proof is in the fight scenes, as I said in the beginning.

Why is it that whenever someone begins with "are you telling me...", or "are you really saying...", that it is inevitably NOT what you said?

Originally posted by FrothByte

Care to at least provide examples of Cap easily beating opponents who were trying to melee with him?

I could, or you could just watch the movies again.

If I believed you could actually be convinced, I actually would have.

To me, the difference is so self-evident that if someone can maintain that Thor is Cap's equal in skill, its just time to agree to disagree.

1) Thor was hurt, did you even watch the movie?
2) Coulson covered their poor showing during his interview with Thor, again have you even watched the movie?
3) Except, Thor didn't have superhuman strength during that scene and again Cap's speed is also above human, whereas in that scene Thor had human level speed.

Originally posted by Silent Master
1) Thor was hurt, did you even watch the movie?
2) Coulson covered their poor showing during his interview with Thor, again have you even watched the movie?
3) Except, Thor didn't have superhuman strength during that scene and again Cap's speed is also above human, whereas in that scene Thor had human level speed.

1. So a normal human can get hit by a car twice, tasered, drugged, and just stroll around a short while later as if nothing happened? You should go outside and do a little experiment.

Yes, I have watched the movie.

2. Again, I have watched the movie.

3. You had to point out something I said already? Cap's speed is above human. But for the purposes of this thread, Cap maintains his speed advantage, so this does not need to be controlled for.


Only 1 out of 3 relevant discussion points. Try again.

Originally posted by Placidity
1. So a normal human can get hit by a car twice, tasered, drugged, and just stroll around a short while later as if nothing happened? You should go outside and do a little experiment.

Yes, I have watched the movie.

2. Again, I have watched the movie.

3. You had to point out something I said already? Cap's speed is above human. But for the purposes of this thread, Cap maintains his speed advantage, so this does not need to be controlled for.


Only 1 out of 3 relevant discussion points. Try again.

Correction, Thor was temp ko'd after getting hit by the car and then ko'd again by the taser, the 2nd time he got hit by a car he was also ko'd. as you've been caught lying. this debate is over.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Correction, Thor was temp ko'd after getting hit by the car and then ko'd again by the taser, the 2nd time he got hit by a car he was also ko'd. as you've been caught lying. this debate is over.

Ok, when you go out to get hit by a car, "KOed" and then get back up and walk around, let me know, I will wait for you.

Lol, "caught lying". Somehow you missed the part where I said "and just stroll around a short while later".

Caught twisting my words so you can make up an excuse to end the "debate".

Yea, debate is over, you are right.

Again, this debate is over.

Originally posted by Placidity
No, the proof is in the fight scenes, as I said in the beginning.

Why is it that whenever someone begins with "are you telling me...", or "are you really saying...", that it is inevitably NOT what you said?



I could, or you could just watch the movies again.

If I believed you could actually be convinced, I actually would have.

To me, the difference is so self-evident that if someone can maintain that Thor is Cap's equal in skill, its just time to agree to disagree.

Yeah, so basically you're using fight scenes where Cap beat up a bunch of guys who weren't even trying to fight him in melee as proof that Cap has superior h2h skills.

You're also using an example where Cap beats up people a lot weaker than him as proof of his superior skill.

Like I said, Thor constantly battles enemies near his own strength level and completely defeats them in melee. Cap can't say the same.

What you are calling as "self evident" is probably because Cap has a fancier fighting style, which is what makes you believe he is better.

Originally posted by FrothByte

What you are calling as "self evident" is probably because Cap has a fancier fighting style, which is what makes you believe he is better.

You can dismiss skill as "fancy" if you'd like.

I'm only interested in an honest debate, not a meaningless back and forth with the occasional insult.

The strawman is strong here.

Originally posted by ares834
Eh, no. This is completely oversimplifying a very complex problem. After all, a object with a constant velocity (a=0) can hit someone with more force than an accelerating object. When calculating a collision and more specifically a punch much more has to be taken into consideration than velocity and mass.

Now, you can use said equation to figure out the force of the shield bash. But it depends on the mass and acceleration of the object that is hit, in this case the person sent flying.

Actually the initial acceleration shouldn't be zero to make a force but Angular acceleration can be zero , in this case the initial acceleration depends on the strength of the person who throws the shield means more strength results in more Force.

Anyway, Thor wins as he still has flight and his weather control abilities.

Originally posted by Placidity
You can dismiss skill as "fancy" if you'd like.

I'm only interested in an honest debate, not a meaningless back and forth with the occasional insult.

The strawman is strong here.

Ok fine. Tell me then how Cap's skill is self-evidently better that Thor's. Because so far all you've been doing is saying how "if you watch the movies, you can tell that Cap has superior skill". You have not given proper argument to your cause.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Anyway, Thor wins as he still has flight and his weather control abilities.

As I said on page one. Don't let Placidity dictate the rules of engagement, as this is a stomp in Thor's favor.

Compared to the comics, Marvel has seriously low-balled Thor's movie abilities.

That deleted scene doesn't count as a screen feat BTW. It isn't part of the official movie canon.

S6j0VdQkJPo

Just look at caps speed and reflexes in his fight with Loki. If Cap has the strength and durability of Thor, he could definitely do some damage. That matrix dodge is pretty badass.

So Thor can't fly or use his powers because Cap is fast?

K.

Originally posted by Firefly218
Compared to the comics, Marvel has seriously low-balled Thor's movie abilities.

That deleted scene doesn't count as a screen feat BTW. It isn't part of the official movie canon.

S6j0VdQkJPo

Just look at caps speed and reflexes in his fight with Loki. If Cap has the strength and durability of Thor, he could definitely do some damage. That matrix dodge is pretty badass.


It's not like Cap outskilled Loki in that fight. Loki was perfectly fine keeping up with Cap and hit Cap as easily as Cap hit him. Difference is Loki hit harder.

Point is, Loki doesn't seem slow or outskilled against Cap, and we all know who the better fighter is between Thor and Loki.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It's not like Cap outskilled Loki in that fight. Loki was perfectly fine keeping up with Cap and hit Cap as easily as Cap hit him. Difference is Loki hit harder.

Point is, Loki doesn't seem slow or outskilled against Cap, and we all know who the better fighter is between Thor and Loki.

If cap had Thor level strength in that fight, he would have annihilated loki. BTW, I'm not arguing Cap is as skilled as Thor. I would say cap is faster and has amazing reflexes, which more than makes up for deficiencies in skill.

... So where is this amazing speed people are saying Cap has? Relative to Thor anyway.

I don't see it.

Originally posted by Firefly218
If cap had Thor level strength in that fight, he would have annihilated loki. BTW, I'm not arguing Cap is as skilled as Thor. I would say cap is faster and has amazing reflexes, which more than makes up for deficiencies in skill.

So Cap has better speed feats than blocking multiple energy weapons?

By all means, post the feats.

Originally posted by NemeBro
... So where is this amazing speed people are saying Cap has? Relative to Thor anyway.

I don't see it.

It's evident somewhere, like, in the film. Idk. Thor still has his entire moveset and Cap can't fly, so a lot of this is stupid.

Originally posted by Firefly218
If cap had Thor level strength in that fight, he would have annihilated loki. BTW, I'm not arguing Cap is as skilled as Thor. I would say cap is faster and has amazing reflexes, which more than makes up for deficiencies in skill.

I'd say Cap was more lithe and more agile. Definitely more acrobatic. Not sure about speed though.