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This is peak Revan and peak Nox. Nox is the Darkside version of the Sith Inquisitor character from Swtor.

The battle takes place on the Foundry, where Revan fought the Strike Team including a weaker Nox.

Nox solos. EDIT: My level 50+ Nox can solo Revan anyways, so it's canonically the case.

Nox goes down, hard.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nox goes down, hard.

I think it would be a tougher fight than that.

I'd back Nox over Revan in a lightsaber fight at least.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think it would be a tougher fight than that.

I'd back Nox over Revan in a lightsaber fight at least.
It really depends on how generous we want to be. Feat wise, a lot of people would crush Revan in a lightsaber duel, but that's probably not the case.

Well Nox is stated to be just as skilled with a lightsaber as they are with the Force. And they have a great feat of defeating a Sith Lord with all/most of their Force drained from them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Nox is stated to be just as skilled with a lightsaber as they are with the Force. And they have a great feat of defeating a Sith Lord with all/most of their Force drained from them.
Revan's Force showings are a few tiers above Nox', IMHO.

Nah. Nox is pretty beastly. They were disintegrating rock before they even gained the power of 4 or 5 other Sith Lords.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Nox is stated to be just as skilled with a lightsaber as they are with the Force. And they have a great feat of defeating a Sith Lord with all/most of their Force drained from them.



If we are treating gameplay classes as canonical now then Revan is apparently part of the "Jedi knight class" who focus more on lightsaber than the force.

Even though Drew K suggests he is a Niman master and prefers to use the Force liberally like Dooku.

When did he say that? Plus, I was under the impression that what Drew said wasn't considered canon anyways.

"However, it is my unofficial opinion that Revan would generally have used "Form VI - Niman". This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat. Form VI would allow Revan to spend less time focusing on lightsaber skills, and more time developing other Force powers."
-Drew Karpyshyn

So it's about as canonical as his other "unofficial opinion" concerning a certain Emperor. Cool. Thanks for posting that.

Originally posted by ares834
So it's about as canonical as his other "unofficial opinion" concerning a certain Emperor. Cool. Thanks for posting that.
It really doesn't matter whether it's canon or not; it simply proves that the so called ''canon classes'' are probably not to be considered when Revan is in a class that identifies him the opposite of what an official author claims.

If it's non-canon than what the author claims is irrelevant.

Now personally, I too assumed Revan was a more "balanced" character focusing equally on the force and saber combat, however if the TOR classes are considered canonical (which I very much doubt) than Revan is canonically classified as a Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by ares834


If we are treating gameplay classes as canonical now then Revan is apparently part of the "Jedi knight class" who focus more on lightsaber than the force.

That's nice. What lightsaber feats does Revan have?

-Outdueld Darth Malak (during his time as Darth Revan): My Malak Respect Thread
-Defeated Mandalore the Ultimate (strongest Mandalorian of the time)
-Was renowned as Revan the Butcher after slaying dozens of mandalorians.
-Kill dozens upon dozens of Sith Apprentices and War Droids on board the Star Forge. Should be noted many of the Sith Apprentices were amped hugely by the Star Forge, and many portrayed the art of displaying Force Resistance. The total amount he killed were said to be "armies."

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's nice. What lightsaber feats does Revan have?

Few impressive ones. How about Nox?

I listed them above. Nox is just as good with a lightsaber as they are with the Force and they defeated a powerful Sith Lord while drained of the Force.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
-Outdueld Darth Malak (during his time as Darth Revan): My Malak Respect Thread
-Defeated Mandalore the Ultimate (strongest Mandalorian of the time)
-Was renowned as Revan the Butcher after slaying dozens of mandalorians.
-Kill dozens upon dozens of Sith Apprentices and War Droids on board the Star Forge. Should be noted many of the Sith Apprentices were amped hugely by the Star Forge, and many portrayed the art of displaying Force Resistance. The total amount he killed were said to be "armies."

None of those are known to have been done by his lightsaber.

I'll tell you Revans lightsaber feats:

He pwned an Imperial Guardsman.
????
Profit.

Thats about it.

-It's confirmed he struck down Malak's jaw off with a lightsaber.
-It's also stated he defeated mandalore in "single combat", very unlikely any force was involved.
-Like I said, many of the Dark Jedi knew force resistance, it's most likely he relied more heavily on his blade throughout the Star Forge then his force abilities, that would mainly be rendered useless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I listed them above. Nox is just as good with a lightsaber as they are with the Force and

Where is this stated? Class description amiright?

Originally posted by Nephthys
they defeated a powerful Sith Lord while drained of the Force.

Got the video?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
-It's confirmed he struck down Malak's jaw off with a lightsaber.
-It's also stated he defeated mandalore in "single combat", very unlikely any force was involved.
-Like I said, many of the Dark Jedi knew force resistance, it's most likely he relied more heavily on his blade throughout the Star Forge then his force abilities, that would mainly be rendered useless.

- Under unknown circumstances. Revan could have surprised Malak. Besides, Malak has no lightsaber feats or accolades either.
- Perhaps.
- Nox has also defeated Force resistant beings, such as a Terentatek and Khem Val, both while a mere acolyte training on Korriban.

Darth Malak can casually block hordes of blaster fire with ease.
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-07-2014/UJlHvo.gif

Darth Malak was a powerful, "headstrong warrior".
"Malak gained a reputation as a headstrong warrior who would recklessly charge into danger. Malak's former Masters were well aware of this impetuousness during his days at the training academy on Dantooine."
-Star Wars Databanks

Darth Malak was better with a lightsaber then that of what he was with the Force, and was even "renowned for his combat abilities" (Keep in consideration his force abilities are badass).
"He was renowned for his combat abilities...I also felt that he wasn't as strong at using the Force in other ways as Revan was."
-Drew Karpyshyn; book writer

Many credit Darth Malak for the Republic's victory over the Mandalorians due to his "relentless fury" on the battlefield.
"While many credited the Revanchist's military strategies for the campaign success, others were quick to point to Alex's fierce courage and relentless fury on the forefront of every battle as the key part to Republic victory."


Armies of Dark Jedi>A Rancor.

Originally posted by ares834
Where is this stated? Class description amiright?



Got the video?

Yes.

"Whether facing a traitorous fellow Sith or a crowd of Republic soldiers, the Inquisitor fights with unlimited fury to create a storm of destruction. Expertise in conducting Force energies further allows Inquisitors to draw upon the life essence of themselves and others. This energy can be channeled to bolster their powers, harm their foes, and even to reinvigorate their allies. An Inquisitor's skills with a Lightsaber are equally impressive. Often wielding a double-bladed Lightsaber, Inquisitors use quick, guileful, and lethal maneuvers to strike their enemies down with astonishing speed."

dHnUHD-D5Vs

16.00 onwards. You could argue Khem did the hard work, except Paladius credits his defeat solely to the Inquisitor.

So if we go with classes as canonical than Revan is a Jedi Knight who focus primarily on lightsaber. He is a "masters of the lightsaber arts", has "unmatched lightsaber prowess", has "unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision", and has honed "body and mind into perfect harmony".

As for defeating the Sith Lord, not bad but not highly impressive either. Unless said Sith Lord has some combat feats I am unaware of?

Originally posted by ares834
So if we go with classes as canonical than Revan is a Jedi Knight who focus primarily on lightsaber. He is a "masters of the lightsaber arts", has "unmatched lightsaber prowess", has "unrivaled reflexes and practiced physical precision", and has honed "body and mind into perfect harmony".

As for defeating the Sith Lord, not bad but not highly impressive either. Unless said Sith Lord has some combat feats I am unaware of?

Where are you getting that Revan is a Jedi Knight? Either way, Jedi Knight isn't so much a class as it is a title that refers to basically every Jedi. Even Jedi Council members have been referred to as such.

Also, those quotes you are posting are talking about TOR era Jedi Knights. Revan was taught centuries before TOR. They don't apply to him. In fact, I thought that those class descriptions applied only to the TOR player characters.

Um, beating a full powered Sith Lord in lightsaber combat without the Force is really freaking good. Regardless of his combat feats, a Sith Lord is almost impossible for a normal person to beat in straight up melee. That Nox still beat him shows incredible skill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where are you getting that Revan is a Jedi Knight? Either way, Jedi Knight isn't so much a class as it is a title that refers to basically every Jedi. Even Jedi Council members have been referred to as such.

From the TOR campaign guide where it talks about the Jedi Knight class and mentions several characters that are JKs.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, those quotes you are posting are talking about TOR era Jedi Knights. Revan was taught centuries before TOR. They don't apply to him. In fact, I thought that those class descriptions applied only to the TOR player characters.

Why would they? The class guides use plural words meaning they refer to at least more than one character.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, beating a full powered Sith Lord in lightsaber combat without the Force is really freaking good. Regardless of his combat feats, as Sith Lord is almost impossible for a normal person to beat in straight up melee. That Nox still beat him shows incredible skill.

Not really. We've seen non-force users hold their own against and defeat Jedi/Sith in close combat before. Hell, Jango Fett killed several Jedi with "kung fu" in the "Open Seasons" comic. Unless this Sith actually has any decent combat feats or accolades I'm not not really impressed.

Originally posted by ares834
From the TOR campaign guide where it talks about the Jedi Knight class and mentions several characters that are JKs.

Oh yeah.

Originally posted by ares834
Why would they? The class guides use plural words meaning they refer to at least more than one character.

Thats just the impression I got. And I mean, obviously not every Jedi Knight can have 'unrivaled reflexes' and 'unmatched lightsaber prowess'. Even though they use plurals, I thought it was only in the respect that as an MMO theres multiple Jedi Knights running around.

Originally posted by ares834
Not really. We've seen non-force users hold their own against and defeat Jedi/Sith in close combat before. Hell, Jango Fett killed several Jedi with "kung fu" in the "Open Seasons" comic. Unless this Sith actually has any decent combat feats or accolades I'm not not really impressed.

Oh wow and its not like Jango is one of the most skilled and dangerous Bounty Hunters in history or anything. Jedi and Sith have superspeed (and strength), enhanced reflexes, precognition, a host of other abilities and are pretty much the two best trained fighting forces in the galaxy. For a normal, unenhanced person (as Nox was at the time) to defeat one in close combat is an insane feat of skill and physical ability in my opinion. And this wasn't some no-name Jedi mook, this was a powerful Sith Lord.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Malak can casually block hordes of blaster fire with ease.
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-07-2014/UJlHvo.gif

Darth Malak was a powerful, "headstrong warrior".
"Malak gained a reputation as a headstrong warrior who would recklessly charge into danger. Malak's former Masters were well aware of this impetuousness during his days at the training academy on Dantooine."
-Star Wars Databanks

Darth Malak was better with a lightsaber then that of what he was with the Force, and was even "renowned for his combat abilities" (Keep in consideration his force abilities are badass).
"He was renowned for his combat abilities...I also felt that he wasn't as strong at using the Force in other ways as Revan was."
-Drew Karpyshyn; book writer

Many credit Darth Malak for the Republic's victory over the Mandalorians due to his "relentless fury" on the battlefield.
"While many credited the Revanchist's military strategies for the campaign success, others were quick to point to Alex's fierce courage and relentless fury on the forefront of every battle as the key part to Republic victory."

Yeah Malaks good and all, but there really isn't much concrete about his skill with the blade.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Armies of Dark Jedi>A Rancor.

A Terentatek is more dangerous than a Rancor. And Revan didn't defeat armies of Dark Jedi when he was a barely trained padawan. And a Terentatek is actually resistant to the Force, not just 'I'm sure those Sith knew resist force'. And Revan had help when he did those feats.

Nox has fought through armies of Jedi and Sith too.

He's more impressive then that Sith you keep on rambling about that Nox killed. Also, here's another I forgot to mention:
"Though only a young man, his skill in battle and prowess with the lightsaber had already earned him renown within the Order."
Also, the main thing about Malak's lightsaber skills is that it is massively implied his skills with a blade were greater then his force prowess, and his "force prowess" made him a powerhouse.

If it's a bull rancor, that's debatable.

Actually, Revan at the time of the Star Forge was still not even a confirmed Knight. And the only training he got was those couple days on Dantooine http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/3691928536.gif

Revan killed two Terentatek's on Korriban as well...your point?

I very much doubt any of his companions were stronger then a Dark Jedi with the exception of Mandalore...who wasn't even Mandalore yet.

Video?

I love how Ant is trying to pass off Revan beating Malak a feat via Drew's email, when in the same email Drew said he saw Malak as the better duelist of the two.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's more impressive then that Sith you keep on rambling about that Nox killed.

The reason I am rambling on about that Sith is because he has the unique ability to sap the Force from others, so Nox had to defeat him without it. Revan beat Malak while completely in command of his power, Nox beat Paladus with only his raw skill.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, here's another I forgot to mention:
"Though only a young man, his skill in battle and prowess with the lightsaber had already earned him renown within the Order."
Also, the main thing about Malak's lightsaber skills is that it is massively implied his skills with a blade were greater then his force prowess, and his "force prowess" made him a powerhouse.

As I said, Malak is obviously a very skilled duelist. The extent of his skill I feel is still rather unknown. Lots of people are very skilled. Its hard to compare Malak against his peers in this regard.

Newguy raises a good point though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If it's a bull rancor, that's debatable.

A Terentatek is designed to kill Force users. Its highly resistant to the Force and lightsabers. Even if you think a Rancor is more dangerous overall, a Terentatek offers a greater challenge to a Jedi or Sith.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Actually, Revan at the time of the Star Forge was still not even a confirmed Knight. And the only training he got was those couple days on Dantooine http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/3691928536.gif

Pfft, yeah but Revan was clearly drawing on his past skills to relearn them faster than he normally would. Plus he had lots of battle experience by that point. Nox was days into arriving on Korriban when he fought the Terentatek.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan killed two Terentatek's on Korriban as well...your point?

I was wondering when someone would remember that feat. Yeah yeah very impressive. I still think Nox beating one as an acolyte is a better feat of skill though. As good at least.

Also Nox was only armed with a training saber at the time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I very much doubt any of his companions were stronger then a Dark Jedi with the exception of Mandalore...who wasn't even Mandalore yet.

Uh, HK-47? Juhani? Jolee?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Video?

Man, you can't expect me to remember specifics, it happens a lot in TOR.

The feat is "via Drew email" it's from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, which OVERRULES Drew.

You mean Force Drain? Malak can do that as well.

But Paladus's only feat is drain...in which during the KOTOR era, nearly everyone could do it.

He's far more skilled then a featless Paladus.

Of course, but I am still right.

They weren't really "battles." The most Dark Jedi I believe he killed on one planet was like 6. Now he's going on to face armies of them.

I never forget anything regarding the Lord Revan. http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/1149071260.gif

He would be aided by the Dark Side Nexus, which would be amplifying his precognition, speed, strength, and stamina. While Revan, who is canonically on the Light Side quest, would get even more clouded in such areas.

I concede there.

You underestimating the Dark Jedi. They are superior to your average powerful Jedi Knight. And yes, I say powerful, because I very much doubt the Jedi Council sent fodder Jedi for their second best chance (Revan being the first) to defeat Malak. Jolee is rusty and old, and I very much doubt Juhani is that much powerful then an Knight.

http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/shadow10.png
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/B0xG36.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/t42mG1.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/hreVqR.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You mean Force Drain? Malak can do that as well.

Not really the same thing. Have you heard of Darth Cognus? She had the ability to diminish the Force in others through her presence. Paladius seems to have a similar ability, although much more potent. Nox couldn't even summon lightning in his presence and Paladius was able to push him around with the Force without Nox being able to resist at all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
But Paladus's only feat is drain...in which during the KOTOR era, nearly everyone could do it.

That's not true.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's far more skilled then a featless Paladus.

Yes he is.

Of course, as I said, Revan had the Force when he fought Malak and could have relied on that to defeat him. Nox had to have beaten Paladius in lightsaber combat. Without being able to enhance himself with the Force.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Of course, but I am still right.

True, but context makes it not as comparable as you're making it out to be.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They weren't really "battles." The most Dark Jedi I believe he killed on one planet was like 6. Now he's going on to face armies of them.

He still had a lot of experience fighting Sith. Plus while on the Star Forge Revan only had to fight small groups of enemies at once, which his team as backup.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He would be aided by the Dark Side Nexus, which would be amplifying his precognition, speed, strength, and stamina. While Revan, who is canonically on the Light Side quest, would get even more clouded in such areas.

Revan can command both sides of the Force. Plus as a Dark Side abomination its not as if the Terentatek wouldn't also be affected by the dark side. Also, again, Nox was barely trained.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You underestimating the Dark Jedi. They are superior to your average powerful Jedi Knight. And yes, I say powerful, because I very much doubt the Jedi Council sent fodder Jedi for their second best chance (Revan being the first) to defeat Malak. Jolee is rusty and old, and I very much doubt Juhani is that much powerful then an Knight.

http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/shadow10.png
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/B0xG36.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/t42mG1.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/hreVqR.gif


No, I believe you underestimate Juhani and Jolee. Jolee wasn't rusty, he was kept in shape by living in the most dangerous area of Kashyyyk. And Juhani was good enough to severely injure her master in training, Force pwn Revans allies and corrupt Dantooine and its wildlife. They're both superior to a few random Jedi mooks.

Nope. Never heard of her in my 8 years of Star Wars study, nor in my readings of the three Darth Bane novels.

So he drained the force out of Nox temporarily? Malak can do that as well. It's basically a different variant of Force drain named "Drain Force."

What part isn't true? His only feat, atleast of what you said, is drain.
And in KOTOR, we got average Dark Jed using Drain (Revan on his quest on Kashyyyk)

I see what you mean now...however has Paladius even demonstrated any impressive dueling feats in the first place?

Some of the "small groups" could tally up to 8 at once. And his two companions, like I said, wasn't "that strong."

At this point in time, I don't recall he has mastered that ability. The game made it quite noticeable that drawing on the Dark Side will make you get Dark Side points, yet Revan's quest was canonically all Light Side points.

...Explain further? Revan fought the Terentateks on a Nexus of Korriban as well...so what's your point? #confused

I hated both of there characters greatly, so perhaps.

True, forgot of that point. But his enemies were beasts, in which he was highly proficient as beast control. How often do you think he needed to attack them with a blade, and even so, how impressive even is that? More then probably the Jedi's second best Jedi? Unlikely.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081014202339/starwars/images/9/9c/Jolee_Bindo_KotORCG.jpg

Juhani's ugly doe.

By Force Stun you mean? It should be noted "Revan's allies" were not maxed out at this point, they were "rookies" to put it simply...Juhani was like the second boss in the game. Also, I don't know how far you wana take this, but Juhani is only a whopping 8 in the d20 score books. That's literately less then the Dark Jedi.

I also feel your are forgetting the amp these Dark Jedi are getting on the Star Forge..."Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."
and "Malak powered the Star Forge with captured Jedi Knights, drawing on their powers to augment the massive input if the Unknown World's star."
And it's stated to be a stronger nexus then Lethon by Bastilia Shan, in which when Darth Bane went on Lethon, he was like blown off his feat by it's sheer power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope. Never heard of her in my 8 years of Star Wars study, nor in my readings of the three Darth Bane novels.

Just checking. The ability works in the same way. If you want to see it in action I posted the video at the top of this page.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So he drained the force out of Nox temporarily? Malak can do that as well. It's basically a different variant of Force drain named "Drain Force."

No, Malak cannot do that. Malak can use Force Drain, he cannot use Paladius' unique ability. As you said, its a different variant. He can no more recreate Paladius' ability than he could Cognus'.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What part isn't true? His only feat, atleast of what you said, is drain.
And in KOTOR, we got average Dark Jed using Drain (Revan on his quest on Kashyyyk)

It isn't true that nearly everyone can use it in the Kotor era. Nor that its Paladius' only feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I see what you mean now...however has Paladius even demonstrated any impressive dueling feats in the first place?

Other than obviously becoming and Sith Lord, he mentions having killed numerous other Sith who tried to steal his cult. No concrete dueling feats though. Not that its diminishes the feat. He had the Force. Nox didn't.

A Sith Lord is almost impossible for a Force-less warrior to defeat in close combat. One of the reasons Uliq Qel'Droma is considered such a skilled duelist is because he actually managed to hold off an enraged Jedi in lightsabers without the use of the Force. Nox actually beat a Sith Lord though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Some of the "small groups" could tally up to 8 at once. And his two companions, like I said, wasn't "that strong."

8 hardly adds up to "armies" does it?

Canderous, HK, Jolee and Juhani are all strong fighters. Zaalbar is probably also pretty good.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
At this point in time, I don't recall he has mastered that ability. The game made it quite noticeable that drawing on the Dark Side will make you get Dark Side points, yet Revan's quest was canonically all Light Side points.

I'm not so sure about that. Revan shows that Revan was capable of drawing on both sides of the Force. Can you say that he could not do that during the game?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
...Explain further? Revan fought the Terentateks on a Nexus of Korriban as well...so what's your point? #confused

I was hoping that you wouldn't point that out.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I hated both of there characters greatly, so perhaps.

Woah, what! Jolee was ****ing awesome. He was great, his stories were amazing. And Juhani was the first gay character in Star Wars. Which is cool.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
True, forgot of that point. But his enemies were beasts, in which he was highly proficient as beast control. How often do you think he needed to attack them with a blade, and even so, how impressive even is that? More then probably the Jedi's second best Jedi? Unlikely.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081014202339/starwars/images/9/9c/Jolee_Bindo_KotORCG.jpg

Jolee specialises in the Force over the lightsaber. That he preferred to defeat beasts that way doesn't diminish anything. Also you're forgetting that the first time you meet Jolee he is fighting a group of beasts that are attacking him from all sides and he cuts them all down without taking a scratch.

Plus Jolee did defeat his wife in battle, and his wife would go on to kill many Jedi in combat. Its clear that Jolee is an impressively skilled and powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Juhani's ugly doe.

Dat furry swag.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By Force Stun you mean? It should be noted "Revan's allies" were not maxed out at this point, they were "rookies" to put it simply...Juhani was like the second boss in the game.

Uh, I don't think experience points count for shit. Canderous, Carth and Zaalbar are all extremely experienced and skilled warriors though, even before the game starts.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, I don't know how far you wana take this, but Juhani is only a whopping 8 in the d20 score books. That's literately less then the Dark Jedi.

Irrelevant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I also feel your are forgetting the amp these Dark Jedi are getting on the Star Forge..."Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."
and "Malak powered the Star Forge with captured Jedi Knights, drawing on their powers to augment the massive input if the Unknown World's star."
And it's stated to be a stronger nexus then Lethon by Bastilia Shan, in which when Darth Bane went on Lethon, he was like blown off his feat by it's sheer power.

Don't care. Juhani and Jolee are still way above a bunch of Sith fodder.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A Sith Lord is almost impossible for a Force-less warrior to defeat in close combat. One of the reasons Uliq Qel'Droma is considered such a skilled duelist is because he actually managed to hold off an enraged Jedi in lightsabers without the use of the Force. Nox actually beat a Sith Lord though.

The difference is Sylvar has combat feats. This Sith Lord has none.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's quest was canonically all Light Side points.

Based on?

*Light side quest.
In which was played out via light side points.

I'm asking, where does the idea that Revan only chose light side options come from?

Originally posted by ares834
The difference is Sylvar has combat feats. This Sith Lord has none.

He's defeated numerous other Sith who tried to usurp his cult. Plus in TOR surviving Korriban is a feat in and of itself considering the lore about how merciless the training is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Other than obviously becoming and Sith Lord, he mentions having killed numerous other Sith who tried to steal his cult. No concrete dueling feats though. Not that its diminishes the feat. He had the Force. Nox didn't.

A Sith Lord is almost impossible for a Force-less warrior to defeat in close combat. One of the reasons Uliq Qel'Droma is considered such a skilled duelist is because he actually managed to hold off an enraged Jedi in lightsabers without the use of the Force. Nox actually beat a Sith Lord though.

Another thing to consider is that Paladius points out he could easily crush Nox with the Force but instead opted to fight with lightsabres. Granted this could just be a case of typical Sith ego but I doubt he'd have done that if he didn't have at least reasonably good dueling skills.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Woah, what! Jolee was ****ing awesome. He was great, his stories were amazing. And Juhani was the first gay character in Star Wars. Which is cool.

True on both counts.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't care. Juhani and Jolee are still way above a bunch of Sith fodder.

Absolutely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's defeated numerous other Sith who tried to usurp his cult. Plus in TOR surviving Korriban is a feat in and of itself considering the lore about how merciless the training is.

So some highly ambiguous feats. Even more so than Revan's. Yeah, still not highly impressed.

Plus it is still a far cry from matching the Jeid who clawed Exar's face.

Originally posted by ares834
So if we go with classes as canonical than Revan is a Jedi Knight who focus primarily on lightsaber.

Originally posted by ares834
From the TOR campaign guide where it talks about the Jedi Knight class and mentions several characters that are JKs.

You do realize, don't you, that TOR is set three hundred years after Revan's day? That means TOR classifications don't apply to him.

Three centuries is plenty of time for changes to be made.

Originally posted by ares834
So some highly ambiguous feats. Even more so than Revan's. Yeah, still not highly impressed.

Plus it is still a far cry from matching the Jeid who clawed Exar's face.

I never claimed that Nox was better or equal to Uliq, I'm just saying that its an incredibly impressive feat. Whenever else you see a non-force sensitive beating a Jedi in melee combat, its because that person is HUGELY skilled (or some kind of alien). Jedi and Sith have so many advantages with the Force that to overcome them blade to blade is amazing. I'm struggling to even remember it happening elsewhere tbh.

Just look at Stealth Moose flat out refusing to believe that any Jedi could lose to a non-force sensitive, no matter how skilled. At range, with tons of weaponry and gadgets and heavy armor.

Also, this was hardly Nox at his peak. This is only on Nar Shaddar.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never claimed that Nox was better or equal to Uliq, I'm just saying that its an incredibly impressive feat. Whenever else you see a non-force sensitive beating a Jedi in melee combat, its because that person is HUGELY skilled (or some kind of alien). Jedi and Sith have so many advantages with the Force that to overcome them blade to blade is amazing. I'm struggling to even remember it happening elsewhere tbh.

Oh, this feat does show that Nox is skilled. However, I really don't see it as particularly amazing. We've seen characters like Jango kill numerous Jedi fodder in melee combat but I wouldn't ever say he was as technically skilled as some of the upper level swordsmen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just look at Stealth Moose flat out refusing to believe that any Jedi could lose to a non-force sensitive, no matter how skilled. At range, with tons of weaponry and gadgets and heavy armor.

I'd assume he was arguing that had the Jedi or Sith fought smart and liberally with the force they wouldn't lose. And I'd mostly agree.

I don't really understand what's so special of Paladius' ability. It is draining the force completely from a user, is it not?

More then a majority of the Sith can.

Enlighten me.

Holy shit. This guy > Vitiate then. Wow!

The manner of the way he killed the Sith, and the strength they possessed are unclear. Is it wrong to make the assumption they are around the level of the Sith Revan slaughtered?

Quite a claim. Yet people like Boba Fett has killed tons of Jedi?

The overall amount of kills were in the armies though. Also don't act like an entire army just spammed Nox at once. I'm sure he killed them one-two at a time.

Agreed.

Disagreed.

Amped Sith>A Chewbacca.

Yes, for I just said it. It's not called a "light side quest" for nothing.

Forgive me, my love. <3

I purposely gave him no clothes and a pistol during his Kashyyk missions so he can suffer.

Define "cool".

I thought when we got engaged, we promised not to lie to eachother?
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-16-2014/HcACSu.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-16-2014/JsNQDx.gif

Proof for "go on to kill many Jedi in combat"?

Dat ugly V.

None of the three you mentioned besides Canderous are experienced with fighting force sensitives.

Yet expresses my point.

For one, Revan would never take Juhani on that mission...her ugliest would make him go suicide. Lets think logically here: Juhani was just redeemed, he's not taking her to like one the strongest Dark Side nexus' in history. And, you continue to say Jolee is above "Sith fodder" who are one, not "sith fodder", and you are basing this off of him killing some animals on Kashyyk, which is not as impressive as taking down probably powerful Jedi Knights.

Jesus, why do you guys keep bringing up the Fetts as if they weren't two of the best Bounty Hunters in the mythos and incredibly skilled?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jesus, why do you guys keep bringing up the Fetts as if they weren't two of the best Bounty Hunters in the mythos and incredibly skilled?
Because the guy killing half a dozen Jedi with his bare hands was on the losing end against Jedi of AOTC Kenobi's caliber.

^Exactly.

Because they aren't top tier swordsmen.

He didn't beat them with a sword.

Originally posted by ares834
Oh, this feat does show that Nox is skilled. However, I really don't see it as particularly amazing. We've seen characters like Jango kill numerous Jedi fodder in melee combat but I wouldn't ever say he was as technically skilled as some of the upper level swordsmen.

Its better than anything Revan has done.

About Jango:

1. Thats Jango Fett. He's really dang skilled (In hand to hand, not swords. Duh).

2. Those were Jedi fodder as you said. We're talking about a Sith Lord. A Sith Lord is a solid tier above Jedi trash.

3. It isn't "characters like Jango". Its Jango. Its that one scene. That is the only time in the mythos where something like that has happened. Its wildly inconsistent with Jedi capabilities and really dumb. The only way to explain it is that those were some really shitty Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The only way to explain it is that those were some really shitty Jedi.
No, you just overexaggerate the feat of fighting a Force user with a severed Force connection, bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its better than anything Revan has done.

I wouldn't say it's better than quickly dispatching the Imperial Guard (wouldn't say it's worse either).

Originally posted by Nephthys
About Jango:

1. Thats Jango Fett. He's really dang skilled (In hand to hand, not swords. Duh).

He is. Yet, I still wouldn't put his technical skill near the level of high tier Jedi/Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
3. It isn't "characters like Jango". Its Jango. Its that one scene. That is the only time in the mythos where something like that has happened. Its wildly inconsistent with Jedi capabilities and really dumb. The only way to explain it is that those were some really shitty Jedi.

And this could be a really shitty Sith who climbed the ranks merely due to his ability to cut people off the force.

And, no, we've seen "muggles" hold their own against Jedi in close combat many a time. Pre Vizsla held his own against Kenobi, Cad Bane agaisnt Kenobi, Mandalore the Indomitable vs Qel-Droma, that one mandalorian against Jaina Solo, and I'm sure there are many others I can't recall of the top of my head.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't really understand what's so special of Paladius' ability. It is draining the force completely from a user, is it not?

Abilities like Cognus' (and probably Paladius') are extremely special. They are not actual Force powers, but unique traits inherent to the Force user. And I'm pretty sure that you can't actually block these kinds of abilities.

Also, Paladius's technique is flat out better than anything Malak can do. If he could, he would have drained the Force from Revan as soon as he saw him, as Paladius did to Nox.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
More then a majority of the Sith can.

No, they cannot.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Enlighten me.

I've said it a few times already, Paladius has beaten multiple other Sith Lords.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Holy shit. This guy > Vitiate then. Wow!

Don't get fresh. A Sith Lord represents a significant opponent to almost any Force-less being. And since you seem not to know, I'll tell you that the Sith training in TOR is the hardest and most mercilessly tough training there is. Sith acolytes are sent of suicide missions, attacked by other students, beasts and war droids all the time and sometimes even just killed for no reason as an example. to survive it means that you are worthy to be Sith.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The manner of the way he killed the Sith, and the strength they possessed are unclear. Is it wrong to make the assumption they are around the level of the Sith Revan slaughtered?

Paladius says that they were more powerful than Nox, though obviously they weren't. That still means they were likely very powerful.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quite a claim. Yet people like Boba Fett has killed tons of Jedi?

Could you not read the words "in close combat"? Boba Fett used guns and missiles and flamethrowers and a ton of other weaponry. Also he's Boba Mother****ing Fett. He can pull of the near impossible.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The overall amount of kills were in the armies though. Also don't act like an entire army just spammed Nox at once. I'm sure he killed them one-two at a time.

I see no reason they would all wait their turn. Nox fights through armies on open battle fields a few times.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Disagreed.

Pfft, who cares. You're wrong. I can't believe you think Canderous is better than two Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Amped Sith>A Chewbacca.

Wookiee's can be great warriors. And Zaalbar was a highly trained Wookiee warrior.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes, for I just said it. It's not called a "light side quest" for nothing.

Pretty sure you're wrong here. You haven't responded to ares about this.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I purposely gave him no clothes and a pistol during his Kashyyk missions so he can suffer.

Lame. >:Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Define "cool".

Gay representation in Star Wars is cool. estahuh

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I thought when we got engaged, we promised not to lie to eachother?
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-16-2014/HcACSu.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-16-2014/JsNQDx.gif

Jolee suffers no wounds or damage from the fight, that cutscene is different every time you watch it because its using the in-game combat engine. So sometimes it shows him being hit.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Proof for "go on to kill many Jedi in combat"?

Y0E7IsDcryY

2.45

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None of the three you mentioned besides Canderous are experienced with fighting force sensitives.

I don't even see how it matters. Force Stunning people is an advanced Force power. It doesn't matter if they've fought Force Sensitives, its not like they can resist it through battle experience, lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yet expresses my point.

Nope. RPG mechanics such as that are non-canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For one, Revan would never take Juhani on that mission...her ugliest would make him go suicide. Lets think logically here: Juhani was just redeemed, he's not taking her to like one the strongest Dark Side nexus' in history. And, you continue to say Jolee is above "Sith fodder" who are one, not "sith fodder", and you are basing this off of him killing some animals on Kashyyk, which is not as impressive as taking down probably powerful Jedi Knights.

Juhani and Jolee came with him to the Rakatan temple and fought through the Sith there. You know, on Lehon.

I'm not basing it off that, you said he was rusty and I pointed out that he had to deal with the wildlife and used his lightsaber to do so.

Well Jango's not a swordsman so you can't compare him and the jedi skill for skill with a sword.

But in general combat skill I'm thinking he is far beyond the skill level of virtually any jedi on paper. The reason for this is that the Force gives certain advantages but it doesn't make anyone more skilled technically.

So the way I see it is that a Jedi/Sith that is well regarded for their swordsmanship is with respect to their relatively tiny orders. But with someone like Jango Fett, his skill is highly regarded with respect to the entire galaxy.

So I would expect the most skilled soldiers/bounty hunters/etc. in the galaxy to have far, far, far (^99999999) greater combat skill than the most skilled Jedi and Sith.

It would be like in the real world, if the inhabitants of a city developed superhuman speed and strength overnight. They would be drastically superior MMA fighters than anybody else in the world, and some of their number might have very high skill levels, but in terms of pure skill, the most skilled people from the rest of the world stand out among a far deeper and larger talent pool.

Edit - You translate Jango's combat skill to swordsmanship specifically, and give him a force connection on par with the most skilled jedi/sith of all time, and he most likely destroys them imo.

So you think Jango Fett is more technically skilled than characters like Windu or Yoda...

http://media1.giphy.com/media/BinjLhciLF2gM/giphy.gif

Originally posted by ares834
I wouldn't say it's better than quickly dispatching the Imperial Guard (wouldn't say it's worse either).

Outspeeding a non-force sensitive through Force speed isn't as impressive as outdueling a Sith Lord without Force Speed.

Originally posted by ares834
He is. Yet, I still wouldn't put his technical skill near the level of high tier Jedi/Sith.

Really? The fact that he can make up for his lack of Force powers through sheer skill and physical ability suggests otherwise to me.

Originally posted by ares834
And this could be a really shitty Sith who climbed the ranks merely due to his ability to cut people off the force.

And, no, we've seen "muggles" hold their own against Jedi in close combat many a time. Pre Vizsla held his own against Kenobi, Cad Bane agaisnt Kenobi, Mandalore the Indomitable vs Qel-Droma, that one mandalorian against Jaina Solo, and I'm sure there are many others I can't recall of the top of my head.

A really shitty Sith who was worshiped for his power and skill by a large cult.

And how many of them actually won those fights? Zero. Apart from that thing with Jaina, which was just Travis-wank and heinously stupid.

I think he is far more skilled (in general combat skill) than the most skilled Force User of all time. He's basically the Star Wars Galaxy's very own Big Boss.

I doubt there have been more than a billion Jedi/Sith in history. Which is like equivalent to the population of a tiny planet. Jango's skills stand out with respect to an entire Galaxy.

When you remove the Force from the equation Jango has infinitely more going for him than Yoda or Mace Windu when it comes to combat acumen.

No. Just.... no.

lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
No. Just.... no.

Who?

Edit - Not sure why you guys are even disagreeing with this, I thought it was fairly obvious that arguably the most skilled bounty hunter in the galaxy would be more dangerous (and certainly more skilled) than any Forceless Jedi/Sith. What am I missing here that makes that claim somehow laughable?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Outspeeding a non-force sensitive through Force speed isn't as impressive as outdueling a Sith Lord without Force Speed.

Muggles who are said to be a match for Sith/Jedi in close combat. (Oh, look at that more muggles who can match force users in close combat.)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? The fact that he can make up for his lack of Force powers through sheer skill and physical ability suggests otherwise to me.

And like I said earlier, I would never put his technical skill on a level with the top tiers. This is the point we disagree on then.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And how many of them actually won those fights? Zero. Apart from that thing with Jaina, which was just Travis-wank and heinously stupid.

They were also fighting characters who have actual impressive combat feats.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Who?

You.

That was just dumb. Your logic makes no sense. Not every being in the galaxy is a Bounty Hunter or fighter. Only a tiny, tiny portion is. Meanwhile every Jedi or Sith is a highly trained warrior monk, with some of the best training in the galaxy and peak physical fitness.

Neph, how many Bounty Hunters do you think there are in the Galaxy?

Originally posted by ares834
Muggles who are said to be a match for Sith/Jedi in close combat. (Oh, look at that more muggles who can match force users in close combat.)

And they're rightly said to be the most skilled fighting force in the galaxy because of it.

Originally posted by ares834
And like I said earlier, I would never put his technical skill on a level with the top tiers. This is the point we disagree on then.

Well, how the hell do you think he beat those Jedi unless

a) He's really really fantastic at H2H combat or

b) They were shite.

Originally posted by ares834
They were also fighting characters who have actual impressive combat feats.

And they are all said to be incredibly skilled combatants. As you need too be to match a Jedi or Sith in melee. Although Mandalore was using a Basalisk for most of the fight and as rather swiftly beaten without it.

Concession expected and accepted brotholomew.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And they're rightly said to be the most skilled fighting force in the galaxy because of it.



Which is why Revan quickly dispatching one is impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, how the hell do you think he beat those Jedi unless

a) He's really really fantastic at H2H combat or

b) They were shite.

Huh? I'm not saying he isn't skilled, just that he is not as skilled as the top tiers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And they are all said to be incredibly skilled combatants. As you need too be to match a Jedi or Sith in melee.

And all were facing incredibly skilled Jedi.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Neph, how many Bounty Hunters do you think there are in the Galaxy?

How the heck would I know.


Also, it sounds like you'd really like the TOR Bounty Hunter. That badass motherf*cker defeated the Jedi Battlemaster. And one of the top Sith Lords in the Empire. And a Jedi Master War Hero who killed a hundred veteran Mando's in a single battle. The TOR BH is pretty much up there with Grievous as the best non-force sensitive in the mythos imo.

A conservative and realistic estimate would be in the trillions.



Non-Force Using class I'm most looking forward to. But I'm planning on doing all the republic classes first (knight -> consular -> smuggler -> trooper), and then the imps (inquisitor -> warrior -> bounty hunter -> agent).

Edit - They should have made the Bounty Hunter and Smuggler allegiance neutral imo.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
A conservative and realistic estimate would be in the trillions.

That seems excessive.


Originally posted by ares834


Which is why Revan quickly dispatching one is impressive.

But he out-sped him, not out-skilled him.

Originally posted by ares834
Huh? I'm not saying he isn't skilled, just that he is not as skilled as the top tiers.

Well his skill would have to be greatly in excess of those Jedi or else he couldn't have beaten them. He is at a natural disadvantage against a Jedi and can only make up for it in certain ways.

Originally posted by ares834
And all were facing incredibly skilled Jedi.

So what exactly is it that you think? That they were equally as skilled except that the Jedi also had Force Speed, Force Strength, precognition and enhanced reflexes but that somehow the muggles were holding their own through pixie wishes and bubblegum raindrops? How did they make up for these disadvantages?

Originally posted by Nephthys
But he out-sped him, not out-skilled him.

So Revan out-sped a Jedi-level opponent... Yeah, still a decent feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well his skill would have to be greatly in excess of those Jedi or else he couldn't have beaten them. He is at a natural disadvantage against a Jedi and can only make up for it in certain ways.

Sure. He is more skilled than those Jedi. Just as Nox is more skilled than this Sith Lord. The problem is, as I said in the beginning, we don't know how skilled this Sith Lord is. He doesn't have any real combat feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what exactly is it that you think? That they were equally as skilled except that the Jedi also had Force Speed, Force Strength, precognition and enhanced reflexes but that somehow the muggles were holding their own through pixie wishes and bubblegum raindrops? How did they make up for these disadvantages?

I was merely listing examples of non-force users holding their own against force users in melee combat. You said you couldn't remember it happening anywhere else.

As for how they make up for it, I don't think the disadvantages are quite as severe as you make it out to be.

Ares is right about my interpretation of Force users being generally superior to muggles. Any time a Force user gets their ass handed to them despite having precog that lets untrained Annie basically forecast his way through pod races that no human can do otherwise, it's shit writing and jobbing at work.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That seems excessive.

Hardly.

Darth Nox will overcome most individuals in the mythos (including Revan), he is ridiculously powerful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its better than anything Revan has done.

About Jango:

1. Thats Jango Fett. He's really dang skilled (In hand to hand, not swords. Duh).

2. Those were Jedi fodder as you said. We're talking about a Sith Lord. A Sith Lord is a solid tier above Jedi trash.

3. It isn't "characters like Jango". Its Jango. Its that one scene. That is the only time in the mythos where something like that has happened. Its wildly inconsistent with Jedi capabilities and really dumb. The only way to explain it is that those were some really shitty Jedi.

I always head-canoned Mandalorians to either have some significant cybernetic/ bioenhancement kinda like Spartans but even better in Halo. I mean honestly I've always thought clone troopers and pretty much all soldiers in Star Wars are modified with improved reflexes and such. Otherwise it really doesn't make any sense, sans Grievous who is just that brilliant of a machine.

Stealth Moose, your thoughts on Jango's skill level please.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Stealth Moose, your thoughts on Jango's skill level please.

In what way? Jango is probably one of the most dangerous bounty hunters in the galaxy, and his skillset involves that entirely. But he's also a Mando, and they have an entire thousand plus year history dedicated to martial training, including multiple firearms, melee weapons, and hand to hand. They are also taught survival training in hostile environments. The main reason why the clones have him as a template is because he is the uber-soldier. I'd bet on him against most non-Force using combatants simply because of the above.

But there's no point in evaluating him besides a Force user. Saying he could beat a Force user who wasn't using the Force is like saying I can beat Bruce Lee if his limbs were numb and clumsy. There's no merit because the bounty hunter is best among muggles, and Jedi are relative to their own station of a monkish group that has horribly inconsistent precognition (Ani can use it at will for pod racing and Jedi use it all the damn time to deflect blaster bolts, but in combat, Jedi repeatedly act as if they can't predict anything and wail away like fools) and seeming uber speed (which never translates into combat speed) and TK (which they never use pragmatically).

The idea that muggles can kill Jedi, without being crazy prepared or due to lazy writing, boggles the mind. This isn't to say it hasn't happened; it's to say it shouldn't happen but most writers are morons. If I had to rewrite Star Wars, one of the things I'd change would be the idea that Jedi and Sith fight as if they don't have precog. Hell, I might even remove precog entirely and just make Jedi super fast.

Why else could you dodge a Force push from life energy that permeates the galaxy? Derp.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Saying he could beat a Force user who wasn't using the Force is like saying I can beat Bruce Lee if his limbs were numb and clumsy.

Er, nope. Its more like saying Batman could beat Superman in a fist fight if Superman had no powers.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and Jedi are relative to their own station of a monkish group that has horribly inconsistent precognition (Ani can use it at will for pod racing and Jedi use it all the damn time to deflect blaster bolts, but in combat, Jedi repeatedly act as if they can't predict anything and wail away like fools) and seeming uber speed (which never translates into combat speed) and TK (which they never use pragmatically).

Beg your pardon but I don't really see much inconsistency. Some are just better at precognition than others. In your example of Anakin, recall he was a prodigy with an abnormally high potential. Hence he could pod-race despite having no training.

Regarding blaster deflection vs. melee combat, I see it like this; a blaster bolt is a non-sapient object moving in only one direction and thus is quite easy to predict. A living opponent is sapient and can attack/defend from numerous angles, making it harder to accurately predict what they'll do millisecond to millisecond.

Basically, Kas'im got it right.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Why else could you dodge a Force push from life energy that permeates the galaxy? Derp.

When a Force-user does a Force push he/she is "firing" a psychokinetic wave from their hand in basically a straight line. I don't see why that should be impossible to dodge if one is fast enough.

To put it another way, the energy may permeate the galaxy but the target only needs to dodge the wave passing through that galaxy-permeating energy, not the energy itself.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Gay representation in Star Wars is cool.

Absolutely.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Regarding blaster deflection vs. melee combat, I see it like this; a blaster bolt is a non-sapient object moving in only one direction and thus is quite easy to predict. A living opponent is sapient and can attack/defend from numerous angles, making it harder to accurately predict what they'll do millisecond to millisecond.

Which is bull shit. If a Jedi actually has precog like Qui-Gon claims ("see things before they happen" then it shouldn't make a bit of difference between whether or not they are easy to predict as the Jeid aren't predicting at all but acting to what they know is going to happen.

Of course, the majority of authors of SW have no clue how precog would actually work so characters are performing "feints" and attacking from "unexpected" angles in their duels.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
When a Force-user does a Force push he/she is "firing" a psychokinetic wave from their hand in basically a straight line. I don't see why that should be impossible to dodge if one is fast enough.

To put it another way, the energy may permeate the galaxy but the target only needs to dodge the wave passing through that galaxy-permeating energy, not the energy itself.

Which is also dumb as hell. When a force user chokes someone they don't send a magic invisible fast out from their hand to their opponents throat...

Basically, if the force user performing the force push has even half a brain they won't send "magic missiles" flying form their hands like they do in video games, but instead have the force applied directly to their target.

Originally posted by ares834
Which is bull shit. If a Jedi actually has precog like Qui-Gon claims ("see things before they happen" then it shouldn't make a bit of difference between whether or not they are easy to predict as the Jeid aren't predicting at all but acting to what they know is going to happen.

Of course, the majority of authors of SW have no clue how precog would actually work so characters are performing "feints" and attacking from "unexpected" angles in their duels.

The "feints" and "unexpected angles" thing makes sense when it's two or more Force-users dueling (although not when it's a Jedi vs. a non-Force user I admit). Remember both can "see things before they happen" and both can block or at least obscure the other's precognition. If their abilities cancel each other out then feints, unexpected angles etc make perfect sense.

Plus Force abilities (at least precognition) could be like magic. Sometimes it just doesn't work, even if you do everything right.

Originally posted by ares834
Which is also dumb as hell. When a force user chokes someone they don't send a magic invisible fast out from their hand to their opponents throat...

Basically, if the force user performing the force push has even half a brain they won't send "magic missiles" flying form their hands like they do in video games, but instead have the force applied directly to their target.

Not necessarily. It may be that the "magic missile" approach is the preferred method as its quicker/easier to do than direct application.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The "feints" and "unexpected angles" thing makes sense when it's two or more Force-users dueling (although not when it's a Jedi vs. a non-Force user I admit). Remember both can "see things before they happen" and both can block or at least obscure the other's precognition. If their abilities cancel each other out then feints, unexpected angles etc make perfect sense.

Plus Force abilities (at least precognition) could be like magic. Sometimes it just doesn't work, even if you do everything right.

It shouldn't matter if it's two Jedi/Sith fighting unless they can't blunt each others precog which is never really seen outside Sidious's shroud of the dark side. Typically though, it's just PIS but that's par for the course when it comes to Star Wars.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not necessarily. It may be that the "magic missile" approach is the preferred method as its quicker/easier to do than direct application.

Which is never implied or stated. Characters seem to be able to use force "grip" just as easily as a push. Frankly, making the force a "missile" seems to be either a complete misunderstanding of the material or done for "cool" visuals/gameplay reasons.

Edit: Not saying that this isn't done. Many times force pushes are shown to be pressurized air or whatever, just saying that this is more PIS that authors pile onto the Jedi.

Absolutely. Force is inconsistently fleshed out, and precog was mangled even by GL.

Originally posted by ares834
So Revan out-sped a Jedi-level opponent... Yeah, still a decent feat.

Yes it is.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. He is more skilled than those Jedi. Just as Nox is more skilled than this Sith Lord. The problem is, as I said in the beginning, we don't know how skilled this Sith Lord is. He doesn't have any real combat feats.

The Sith's level of skill is irrelevent since just by being a Sith Lord he can reasonably be assumed to have superhuman attributes that Nox had to have overcome through sheer skill. You would need a significant amount of skill to overcome this advantage, which is why the feat is a fantastic skill feat.

Originally posted by ares834
I was merely listing examples of non-force users holding their own against force users in melee combat. You said you couldn't remember it happening anywhere else.

As for how they make up for it, I don't think the disadvantages are quite as severe as you make it out to be.

No, I said I couldn't remember a non-force user beating a Force user in melee other than Jango. Or superhuman aliens.

Well obviously I don't. Moose has given some good rhetoric for why the disadvantage would be rather severe and overcoming it is an significant achievement.

Originally posted by ares834
It shouldn't matter if it's two Jedi/Sith fighting unless they can't blunt each others precog which is never really seen outside Sidious's shroud of the dark side. Typically though, it's just PIS but that's par for the course when it comes to Star Wars.

I thought a key part of all lightsaber combat was trying to blunt your opponents precog. I think PoD mentions it during Bane's training.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought a key part of all lightsaber combat was trying to blunt your opponents precog. I think PoD mentions it during Bane's training.

You are correct. I have the quotes right here:

"As this ability grew, he was able to devote less and less of his mental energy to the physical actions of thrust, parry and counterthrust. This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."

"Guarding against the Force powers of your enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe."

Also this line from Scout vs. Hanna in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous:

"It was as if the Arkanian were muddying the Force, the way a Quarren might squirt ink into the sea."

In short, there is no PIS at all.

It wouldn't have to even be stated in the source material anyway.

Precog vs precog is not that different from the irresistible force paradox. If you can predict the future, you can change it. If two precogs are actively working against eachother, it effectively creates an infinite loop. A predicts X and changes it to Y. B predicts Y and changes it to Z. Rinse and repeat.

Precog simply either wouldn't work in such an engagement, or whoever's quicker to detect the changes would have the upper hand.

Interesting. I haven't read PoD in years so I didn't recall that.

The line from Y: DR, however, has nothing to do with dulling Scout's precog. She was simply unable to sense Hanna's location. Heck, when Hanna attacks it triggers Scout's precog.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It wouldn't have to even be stated in the source material anyway.

Precog vs precog is not that different from the irresistible force paradox. If you can predict the future, you can change it. If two precogs are actively working against eachother, it effectively creates an infinite loop. A predicts X and changes it to Y. B predicts Y and changes it to Z. Rinse and repeat.

Precog simply either wouldn't work in such an engagement, or whoever's quicker to detect the changes would have the upper hand.

It depends on how their precog works. From what I've seen and read it appears to warn the force-user of impending danger and the direction rather than have the FU actually see the future a few seconds before it happens.

If it is the former, then there is no paradox.

Well I'm not really sure how it works but I assumed you'd be able to get an impression of where your opponent might be blocking as well for example. In other words, A senses an attack directed at his right shoulder and plans to block it. B senses that he will be guarding that area and aims to attack his torso instead. A senses the change and decides to guard that area instead. etc.

Perhaps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Sith's level of skill is irrelevent since just by being a Sith Lord he can reasonably be assumed to have superhuman attributes that Nox had to have overcome through sheer skill. You would need a significant amount of skill to overcome this advantage, which is why the feat is a fantastic skill feat.

And like I said earlier it's a good feat that shows Nox is skilled. However, I don't view it as highly impressive. Other characters such as Jango and Pre Vizla, have similar but more impressive feats yet I still don't consider them amongst the most skilled melee combatants in the mythos.

This is an interesting fight. I'd ultimately give it to Revan, though. Nox, accompanied by the 2nd Wrath, the Champ, and Cipher were able to take on Revan, but even then I doubt anyone would think they took him down even easily. He was throwing giant meteorites down at them, whilst dueling them. At least based on the FP, I would lean over at Revan's side for this one. I do believe, however, that Nox is a powerhouse and would give Revan probably the toughest time of his life in a straight battle.

Yeah but FPs are so inconsistent you don't even know what the **** is up. It also takes Nox, Wrath, Ciphy and Champ to destroy HK, and based on what we see, we wouldn't be able to say it was an easy fight, either, and yet, you'd have no problem saying Nox or anyone of those guys would kick the shit out of HK's metallic balls without much trouble based on their feats and HK's lack thereof.

Originally posted by ares834
And like I said earlier it's a good feat that shows Nox is skilled. However, I don't view it as highly impressive. Other characters such as Jango and Pre Vizla, have similar but more impressive feats yet I still don't consider them amongst the most skilled melee combatants in the mythos.

Jango and Pre Vizla are Mandalorian leaders. The Mandalorians are a group of warriors skilled enough to go toe to toe with a Jedi in a fight due to their combat skill, tactics, firepower and gear and they are the stand outs amongst them. I don't see why you're so resistant to them being so highly skilled when they are the cream of the greatest warrior society in the mythos, with millennia of Jedi combat in their history.

Anyway, different subject: What about the quote that suggests that Nox is equally as skilled with a lightsaber as with the Force? Wouldn't that put them above Revan?

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
This is an interesting fight. I'd ultimately give it to Revan, though. Nox, accompanied by the 2nd Wrath, the Champ, and Cipher were able to take on Revan, but even then I doubt anyone would think they took him down even easily. He was throwing giant meteorites down at them, whilst dueling them. At least based on the FP, I would lean over at Revan's side for this one. I do believe, however, that Nox is a powerhouse and would give Revan probably the toughest time of his life in a straight battle.

That was Nox before s/he consumed a bunch of ghosts and vastly increased his or her power. By the end of the game Nox would have easily caught up with him.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah but FPs are so inconsistent you don't even know what the **** is up. It also takes Nox, Wrath, Ciphy and Champ to destroy HK, and based on what we see, we wouldn't be able to say it was an easy fight, either, and yet, you'd have no problem saying Nox or anyone of those guys would kick the shit out of HK's metallic balls without much trouble based on their feats and HK's lack thereof.

Good point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, different subject: What about the quote that suggests that Nox is equally as skilled with a lightsaber as with the Force? Wouldn't that put them above Revan?

Like I said earlier, I don't actually consider the classes or their descriptions as canonical. They are their for gameplay reasons, and contradict actual canon material.

Originally posted by ares834
The line from Y: DR, however, has nothing to do with dulling Scout's precog. She was simply unable to sense Hanna's location. Heck, when Hanna attacks it triggers Scout's precog.

I stand corrected.

Originally posted by ares834
Like I said earlier, I don't actually consider the classes or their descriptions as canonical. They are their for gameplay reasons, and contradict actual canon material.

The classes absolutely are canon. They're referenced with the characters in the source material and through quest conversations etc. Even if you don't think the descriptions are talking about the characters specifically, Nox is a Sith Inquisitor and the descriptions still apply to them.

How do you think they contradict canon?

Well, the obvious one is the Jedi Knight. The rank of Jedi Knight is for all Jedi, not merely those that primarily brandish a lightsaber.

Jedi Guardians don't necessarily use one lightsaber or wear heavy armor rather they merely focus on combat. Guardians are the primary warriors of the Jedi Order.

Consulars, meanwhile, don't focus on combat or even force based combat. Rather they focus on diplomacy and visions.

Jedi Sentinels don't necessarily focus on Jar'kai, instead they tend to focus on things other than lightsaber combat or a deeper connection to the force such as hacking and intelligence gathering. Also Jedi Shadows branch off of the Sentinels rather than Consulars. Shadows are sent out to retrieve dark side artifacts and vanquish remaining dark side cults not neccesairly to sue a double bladed saber.

Originally posted by ares834
Well, the obvious one is the Jedi Knight. The rank of Jedi Knight is for all Jedi, not merely those that primarily brandish a lightsaber.

Jedi Guardians don't necessarily use one lightsaber or wear heavy armor rather they merely focus on combat. Guardians are the primary warriors of the Jedi Order.

Consulars, meanwhile, don't focus on combat or even force based combat. Rather they focus on diplomacy and visions.

Jedi Sentinels don't necessarily focus on Jar'kai, instead they tend to focus on things other than lightsaber combat or a deeper connection to the force such as hacking and intelligence gathering. Also Jedi Shadows branch off of the Sentinels rather than Consulars. Shadows are sent out to retrieve dark side artifacts and vanquish remaining dark side cults not neccesairly to sue a double bladed saber.

That doesn't necessarily contradict anything. It just means that over the years the definitions and meanings of the various terms changed.

It's a complete contradiction specifically the Jedi Knight. I mean, Jedi Consulars are still referred to as Jedi Knights throughout the game.

It seems pretty clear to me that the class description are gameplay mechanics just as they were in the KotOR games.

Revan's battle precognition is insane.
"It is the way of the Echani to be able to read their opponents - to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects, anticipate it, and then strike against them. Echani battles are fought several minutes in advance - in many ways, it is much like the game of dejarik played in the core systems. The most advanced among the Echani are able to predict the course of battles by months, and the most revered are said to be able to predict the path of wars. Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him."

"The Echani rely heavily on hand-to-hand combat and personal shield technology, and they had their a*** handed to them by Revan during the Jedi Civil War, because, not surprisingly, there weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter."

He utterly destroyed an Imperial Guard in the mist of combat (these guys are stated to be feared by even the Dark Council, and to be a match for even a skilled Jedi) via Precognition:

"The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn't go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent's defences would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with a horizontal cut across the man's exposed throat."

Revan also defeated Mandalore the Ultimate, and Mandalore the Ultimate was impressive here's why.
Mandalore the Ultimate is the most powerful Mandalorian of the time who was capable of defeating a young, Jedi Malak in a single blow. Malak is among the most skilled swordsman of his time, and is argued alongside Revan's military genius over the main cause of the Mandalorian defeat through his lightsaber abilities. The fact a young Revan was capable of slaying Mandalore the Ultimate in pure combat, and that the Mandalore is said be no match to Revan, as stated by the quote below, is indeed impressive.

"In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion."
Another feat for Revan is his slaughter of the Sith on Korriban. The feat itself is so legendary even Darth Bane 4,000 years later knew of the tale. He personally slays the entire academy.

"...you have to fight through the entire Sith Academy, starting with the Sith apprentices in the valley."

―Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide
"Nearly three thousand years had passed between the time the Sith had been driven from Korriban by Revan, and the day Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness officially reclaimed this world for the order."

―Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

The final accomplishment of Revan, which is also probably his greatest, is undeniably his run on board the machine of invincible might: the Star Forge. The feat itself is literally only replicated by Tulak Hord throughout all of Star Wars history: the mass slaughter of an army full of Sith.
"As a Jedi, Revan was a warrior who slaughtered armies."

―Dzoun (Star Wars The Old Republic)
Darth Malak literally ordered every available Sith on board the Star Forge to attack Revan

"Strange, I did not think of any apart of the Order would survive an attack by an army of the Star Forge's battle droids...send out all available troops, the apprentices as well!"

―Darth Malak (Knights of the Old Republic)
On board the Star Forge, Revan fought through dozens upon dozens of Sith with the addition to the Star Forge's infinite supply of War Droids until he reached Darth e total amount of Sith that Revan slayed were among the hundreds, as shown by numerous sources.

Your progress is hampered by literally dozens of Sith soldiers, elites, heavy weapons, Sith apprentices, and Dark Jedi...

...teeming with Dark Jedi and Malak's apprentices...

Dark Jedi pour from the giant doors...

The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station...

...a large number of Dark Jedi crowding this thin, lit walkway. Wade into the fray and execute a number of techniques of your choosing, cutting a swath through the assembled troops until all have fallen...

Sith apprentices, Dark Jedi, and the finest Sith shock troops."

―Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide
Do not make the assumption the Sith the faced were featless, because they were not. Nearly all of the Sith there had knowledge on a minimum of Force Drain and Force Lightning according to various sources, and in addition, have in general, some decent feats. This is not even mentioning that it is recognized that only "highly skilled duelists" can duel Dark Jedi.
On top of that those armies were empowered by the Star Forge.
"The Star Forge was an enormous space-station/factory that harnessed the power of an entire star. Within its hull was a vast, intricate network of automated machines designed to mass-produce weaponry, droids, and starships. However, it was more than merely a metal construct. Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."

"Here on the Star Forge the power of the dark side is at its strongest!"
Revan also defeated two Terentatek's with his lightsaber alone.

Revan was skilled in all lightsaber forms as he has been shown to utilise them all.
And Drew Karpyshyn stated so

Revan also effortlessly defeated Darth Nyriss.
Darth Revan has also defeated Darth Malak even before his redemption.

"...Malak sees Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard."

―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

So here's some of his feats

didn't read that just letting you know. Also Revan

Originally posted by Kadan
Revan's battle precognition is insane.
"It is the way of the Echani to be able to read their opponents - to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects, anticipate it, and then strike against them. Echani battles are fought several minutes in advance - in many ways, it is much like the game of dejarik played in the core systems. The most advanced among the Echani are able to predict the course of battles by months, and the most revered are said to be able to predict the path of wars. Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him."

"The Echani rely heavily on hand-to-hand combat and personal shield technology, and they had their a*** handed to them by Revan during the Jedi Civil War, because, not surprisingly, there weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter."

He utterly destroyed an Imperial Guard in the mist of combat (these guys are stated to be feared by even the Dark Council, and to be a match for even a skilled Jedi) via Precognition:

"The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn't go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent's defences would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with a horizontal cut across the man's exposed throat."

Revan also defeated Mandalore the Ultimate, and Mandalore the Ultimate was impressive here's why.
Mandalore the Ultimate is the most powerful Mandalorian of the time who was capable of defeating a young, Jedi Malak in a single blow. Malak is among the most skilled swordsman of his time, and is argued alongside Revan's military genius over the main cause of the Mandalorian defeat through his lightsaber abilities. The fact a young Revan was capable of slaying Mandalore the Ultimate in pure combat, and that the Mandalore is said be no match to Revan, as stated by the quote below, is indeed impressive.

"In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion."
Another feat for Revan is his slaughter of the Sith on Korriban. The feat itself is so legendary even Darth Bane 4,000 years later knew of the tale. He personally slays the entire academy.

"...you have to fight through the entire Sith Academy, starting with the Sith apprentices in the valley."

―Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide
"Nearly three thousand years had passed between the time the Sith had been driven from Korriban by Revan, and the day Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness officially reclaimed this world for the order."

―Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

The final accomplishment of Revan, which is also probably his greatest, is undeniably his run on board the machine of invincible might: the Star Forge. The feat itself is literally only replicated by Tulak Hord throughout all of Star Wars history: the mass slaughter of an army full of Sith.
"As a Jedi, Revan was a warrior who slaughtered armies."

―Dzoun (Star Wars The Old Republic)
Darth Malak literally ordered every available Sith on board the Star Forge to attack Revan

"Strange, I did not think of any apart of the Order would survive an attack by an army of the Star Forge's battle droids...send out all available troops, the apprentices as well!"

―Darth Malak (Knights of the Old Republic)
On board the Star Forge, Revan fought through dozens upon dozens of Sith with the addition to the Star Forge's infinite supply of War Droids until he reached Darth e total amount of Sith that Revan slayed were among the hundreds, as shown by numerous sources.

Your progress is hampered by literally dozens of Sith soldiers, elites, heavy weapons, Sith apprentices, and Dark Jedi...

...teeming with Dark Jedi and Malak's apprentices...

Dark Jedi pour from the giant doors...

The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station...

...a large number of Dark Jedi crowding this thin, lit walkway. Wade into the fray and execute a number of techniques of your choosing, cutting a swath through the assembled troops until all have fallen...

Sith apprentices, Dark Jedi, and the finest Sith shock troops."

―Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide
Do not make the assumption the Sith the faced were featless, because they were not. Nearly all of the Sith there had knowledge on a minimum of Force Drain and Force Lightning according to various sources, and in addition, have in general, some decent feats. This is not even mentioning that it is recognized that only "highly skilled duelists" can duel Dark Jedi.
On top of that those armies were empowered by the Star Forge.
"The Star Forge was an enormous space-station/factory that harnessed the power of an entire star. Within its hull was a vast, intricate network of automated machines designed to mass-produce weaponry, droids, and starships. However, it was more than merely a metal construct. Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."

"Here on the Star Forge the power of the dark side is at its strongest!"
Revan also defeated two Terentatek's with his lightsaber alone.

Revan was skilled in all lightsaber forms as he has been shown to utilise them all.
And Drew Karpyshyn stated so

Revan also effortlessly defeated Darth Nyriss.
Darth Revan has also defeated Darth Malak even before his redemption.

"...Malak sees Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard."

―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

So here's some of his feats ******

I'd be interested to see if your opinions on this change at the end of the SI campaign, Ant.

I still think Nox would edge it.

I'm going with Revan here.

I put them as roughly equal, tbh.

Ah, me and Neph's first debate. Neph and I have drastically improved since then, I believe.

^ Like damn, Neph (or me) could never get away with that these days. We would be smothered into a ball of defeat.
Still, cute to see me and Neph getting along so well. I miss those days. And some of the arguments were quite funny for both sides.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I listed them above. Nox is just as good with a lightsaber as they are with the Force and they defeated a powerful Sith Lord while drained of the Force.



None of those are known to have been done by his lightsaber.

I'll tell you Revans lightsaber feats:

He pwned an Imperial Guardsman.
????
Profit.

Thats about it.
And does light saber throw count as a light saber kill? Because Revan kill dozen mandalorian at a time a single throw....



Anyway Thats not really hard to beat any boss in this game if you good heal and Revan not... Imagine fighting the real Revan with his insame force healing in the game.... Thatt could make this boss so hard....

up

Revan stomps.