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Who wins?

most people here are going to say IF but BP

Most people would say IF because he beat BP in canon...

IF in a stomp.

Not the same BP as todays BP.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Most people would say IF because he beat BP in canon... so IF is now the best fighter in Marvel -_-

Originally posted by carver9
Not the same BP as todays BP.

Not the same IF either.

Difference is, IF's amps and improvements have been seen.

Haven't seen any if BP's improvements yet to make a judgement.

Originally posted by carver9
Not the same BP as todays BP. also not the same IFOriginally posted by iscaremonkeys
so IF is now the best fighter in Marvel -_- are you saying beating BP makes you the best?

Originally posted by iscaremonkeys
so IF is now the best fighter in Marvel -_- On KMC he is the best fighter period apparently.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not the same IF either.

Difference is, IF's amps and improvements have been seen.

Haven't seen any if BP's improvements yet to make a judgement.

So Black Panther taking on Phoenix Namor and withstand attacks from him isn't an improvment? Him taking on and defeating one of Thanos strong henchmen isn't an improvment? The same henchmen that was taking on (solo) Gladiator, Ronan, and Super Skrull and actually had the advantage in the beginning. I'm seeing a lot of improvements. His fts has been impressive since his upgrade.

Originally posted by carver9
So Black Panther taking on Phoenix Namor and withstand attacks from him isn't an improvment? Him taking on and defeating one of Thanos strong henchmen isn't an improvment? The same henchmen that was taking on (solo) Gladiator, Ronan, and Super Skrull and actually had the advantage in the beginning. I'm seeing a lot of improvements.

He wasn't wearing his normal outfit when he got hit by that blast from Namor, and he admitted he couldn't hurt Namor at all, and was only stalling. Cap did more damage than him.

Storm, in AvX, did more damage to BP (post-'upgrade') than Namor:

http://www.abload.de/img/avsx-zone-01862bjk.jpg

Was it shown how he defeated Black Dwarf, or was it off panel?

I stand by my original statement. Not seen enough to make a judgement in favour of BP.

Why mention AvX, according to that crap Story IF > the complete Phoenix...

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Why mention AvX, according to that crap Story IF > the complete Phoenix...

Let him. Because Storm > Phoenix 5 Namor too in terms of h2h damage, it seems.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Let him. Because Storm > Phoenix 5 Namor too in terms of h2h damage, it seems.

Do you really think he was going all out, and why use that showing when we both know IF have similar showings. Didn't he recently get worked by Wolverine while BP ripped Wolverine apart while working on his computer?

Also, yes, he withstood an attack from Phoenix Namor and beat BD.

Originally posted by carver9
Do you really think he was going all out, and why use that showing when we both know IF have similar showings. Didn't he recently get worked by Wolverine while BP ripped Wolverine apart while working on his computer?

Also, yes, he withstood an attack from Phoenix Namor and beat BD.

Why would going all out affect his suit durability? He took a blast in the face from Namor, and his suit was fine. Storm in the VERY same storyline, managed to pretty much work him over and caused more damage. See scan provided. Conclusion: Namor was either weaksauce, or taking it easy on BP so he could laugh in his face. Or Storm is >P5 Namor.

With BD, he got lucky (as stated), and it was off-panel. Broke his hand, too.

You mean the sparring session where he didn't use his IF/Logan had no claws? So...totally not representative?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would going all out affect his suit durability? He took a blast in the face from Namor, and his suit was fine. Storm in the VERY same storyline, managed to pretty much work him over and caused more damage. See scan provided. Conclusion: Namor was either weaksauce, or taking it easy on BP so he could laugh in his face. Or Storm is >P5 Namor.

With BD, he got lucky (as stated), and it was off-panel. Broke his hand, too.

You mean the sparring session where he didn't use his IF/Logan had no claws? So...totally not representative?

Again, I don't understand why you are bringing his fight up with Storm when we have something onpanel with him surviving an attack from Phoenix Namor when others were falling. It doesn't matter what happened before or after this when I am clearly bringing up a showing that happened.

Huh? BP heat him. Doesn't matter if his ribs was broke, BP beat an elite. The last thing we see is BD and BP charging each other ending with BP standing over him.

Yes, I mean the sparring match.

Originally posted by carver9
Again, I don't understand why you are bringing his fight up with Storm when we have something onpanel with him surviving an attack from Phoenix Namor when others were falling. It doesn't matter what happened before or after this when I am clearly bringing up a showing that happened.

Huh? BP heat him. Doesn't matter if his ribs was broke, BP beat an elite. The last thing we see is BD and BP charging each other ending with BP standing over him.

So IOW, other showings (from the same storyline) don't matter, because it contradicts what you assert? Isn't that cherry picking?

I brought up the Storm fight because it's A: shows the durability in the same storyline as the one you brought up and B: shows how, despite having the 'skills of 10,000 years worth of BPs' or whatever it was, he still gets caught out by Storm.

http://www.abload.de/img/avsx-zone-01750czl.jpg

BP stated he was fortunate to win against Dwarf, and had the battle gone on for longer, he would have lost.

Ultimately, IF has had a longer time period and more showings since his upgrade. He will of course have his highs, and his lows. On average, however, he has been upgraded since the last time he fought BP and won.

BP has had fewer showings since his upgrade. He has his highs (which you mentioned, which are pretty few) and his lows (which are equal in number). Add them together, and average them out carver.

Here, let me refresh your memory:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111129455/3379096-dw.jpg

Compare and contrast how he takes out a Skrull with the powers of Thor, Beta Ray Bill and Loki (am assuming with Loki, what with the horns). Also, in the previous page, someone with Thing's powers. I know how you always said that Black Bolt Skrull had the exact same power levels etc as the original, so this Loki/Thor/BRB Skrull should be the same, right?

So where is the upgrade?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/1/16063/541883-black_panther4.jpg

Does anyone have scans to the BD fight?

No. They don't exist.

I don't put too much stock in off panel fights. Anything could have happened.

Couldn't read Dark post...too large.

The BP/Dwarf fight happened off panel. And he broke his hand, stated that he was fortunate to have won, and had the fight gone on, he would've lost to Dwarf. Did he use his skills, his tech, the other Wakandans to help him out? We don't know.

Contrast that to his pre-KotD upgrade, where he effortlessly beheaded a Skrull with Thor/BRB/Loki's powers, and beat another who had Thing+other's powers. As carver likes to say how Skrulls have all the powers/experience of the originals (c.f. SkrullBolt), the Skrull BP killed pre-upgrade effortlessly was in effect BRB/Thor/Loki level.

Also:

That should be the summary, without scans.

BP has already won against a deadlier Iron fist.

BP straight up beat Iron Fist already while holding back. So him.

See, the reason Cassandra Cain beat Shiva isn't because she went down second. It's because she got up first, and walked away.

Rand vs Panther was basically a double ko, with the latter being left with inoperable, potentially fatal brain damage.

Danny was all offense, zero defense. And Panther used prep tonboot.

@Dark...I never said the Skrulls have identical powers as their copies, what I did say is, the Black Bolt skrull was identical due to Reed Richards reading his power level and determining that he was capable of opening a shift in space/time. He had everyone fooled...they thought he was the real thing. Then, his scream ripped a chunk out of the moon the size of a state. So we have him ripping through space/time with a scream (a ft greater than what the original BB has done his entire career), and ripping a chunk out of the moon the size of a state. Then, while they were fighting on the moon, Black Bolt scream (the one he hit Hulk with) was felt on the planet causing planetary level destruction across the globe) (another ft that poops on anything the original has done). So yeah, I have my reasons on why I think he was equal to the original. Does the Skrulls you bring up have fts?

Does Black Dwarf have feats?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Does Black Dwarf have feats? He fought Ronan, Gladiator, Super Skrull, and Annihilus for a brief time.

Originally posted by deathslash
He fought Ronan, Gladiator, Super Skrull, and Annihilus for a brief time.

Then the weakest of the four squashed his head like an overripe melon. He held his own, sure, for all the good it did him. How did Shang Chi/Black Widow do against Black Dwarf?

Skrull even enjoyed it, despite being the only one to take any damage (not that it matters when you can shapeshift):

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vii45d.jpg

Let's not forget - Black Dwarf, with an entire group of soldiers, was unable to bring Shang and Black Widow down. He's just not that impressive.

http://f.ptcdn.info/627/013/000/1387696614-Avengersv5-o.jpg

Shang is a god.

BW was showing BD her titties, he preferred her alive.

Originally posted by cdtm
See, the reason Cassandra Cain beat Shiva isn't because she went down second. It's because she got up first, and walked away.

Rand vs Panther was basically a double ko, with the latter being left with inoperable, potentially fatal brain damage.

Danny was all offense, zero defense. And Panther used prep tonboot.


Danny had more chi to go off in that fight, as he was more amped up then normal and morals off to boot. While Panther was just fighting to save his friend by either knockout or contain the situation.

That's pre upgrade Danny. Post upgrade, he can do the exact same thing normally.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Shang is a god.

BW was showing BD her titties, he preferred her alive.

True. It's a good durability feat from Dwarf that he was able to last that long against Shang

But in all seriousness, Dwarf was a bit of a joke - really, Thanos should've upped his game when finding generals.

It's been almost two years, TWO, since BP got his upgrade. What other feats has he shown to warrant his KotD hyperbolic upgrade? Because so far, all I've seen is a blast in the face from Namor (whilst in the same storyline, he gets pretty bloodied from fighting Storm, and IF is shown to be > Phoenix Force), and being lucky in barely beating a hyped up Black Dwarf off-panel, who as we have seen seems to have some kinda weakness against fighting agile human-sized martial artist.

Thanus is a joke himself that succeeds only on forums brainwashed by Quan

Originally posted by SamZED
On KMC he is the best fighter period apparently.

He's top five in pure skill, yeah.

But it's really the fact he's been more or less a match for Spider-Man in terms of things like speed, agility, durability, and even a sixth sense as good as Matt's Radar Sense or Spidey's Spidey Sense.

Spidey can beat the entire Bat family on his own, or most any street. Danny = Spidey in his Captain Universe days, basically. (Not really, but he's more or less Spidey with a class 70 punch, and Shang Chi level skills.)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Does Black Dwarf have feats?

His fts has already been listed, and he was taken out by a surprise attack from Ronan while taking on a group of Heralds 'and doing well'.

You bringing up the Shang showing isn't as bad as you are trying to make it since he was stomping them. He was surprised that they were still standing which would have more to do with Shang will power than anything.

I don't get your point about Black Panther either. Ok, he had a broken hand and ribs, but he won (which was stated on panel). He beat someone that was undefeatable until he met his defeat at the hands of a group of Heralds (sneak attack). Unless you count the Thanos showing that was a sneak attack as well.

All of Thanos henchmen were powerful, don't know why you are excluding him from the list when we both know he was operating above meta levels.

Originally posted by carver9
His fts has already been listed, and he was taken out by a surprise attack from Ronan while taking on a group of Heralds 'and doing well'.

You bringing up the Shang showing isn't as bad as you are trying to make it since he was stomping them. He was surprised that they were still standing which would have more to do with Shang will power than anything.

I don't get your point about Black Panther either. Ok, he had a broken hand and ribs, but he won (which was stated on panel). He beat someone that was undefeatable until he met his defeat at the hands of a group of Heralds (sneak attack). Unless you count the Thanos showing that was a sneak attack as well.

All of Thanos henchmen were powerful, don't know why you are excluding him from the list when we both know he was operating above meta levels.

Yes, he barely won a lucky victory, the circumstances of which we do not know, in an off-panel win. Your assertion he did it hand-to-hand is as valid as me saying he came out in a Panther robot exoskeleton and shot him full of nanites or something silly like that.

He was surprised, as were we all, as him with an entire squad were still unable to do anything, considering Widow had been taken out pretty early on, so it would've pretty much been Shang, on his own, against a squad of alien soldiers and Dwarf. And he was still standing.

I am excluding him from the list because Dwarf was never that impressive. He did well, until Ronan took it seriously - Skrull was enjoying himself, stated on panel.

In summary - Dwarf wasn't that impressive, and Panther barely beat him in a lucky fight, the circumstances of which are unknown.

Hardly a ringing endorsement, considering we've had nearly two years of appearances to draw upon.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
are you saying beating BP makes you the best? no.
im saying people on KMC make it seem that way

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, he barely won a lucky victory, the circumstances of which we do not know, in an off-panel win. Your assertion he did it hand-to-hand is as valid as me saying he came out in a Panther robot exoskeleton and shot him full of nanites or something silly like that.

He was surprised, as were we all, as him with an entire squad were still unable to do anything, considering Widow had been taken out pretty early on....

Hey, Widow beat Simon in Contest of Champions. I saw the off panel battle myself..