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Mace and the HoT cannot use any offensive force powers. Yoda and the Barsenthor don't even have lightsabers.

They fight on the open plains of Dantooine.

Team 2. Yoda be averse to attacking with the Force leaves Team PT at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Team 2. Yoda be averse to attacking with the Force leaves Team PT at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Team 2. Yoda be averse to attacking with the Force leaves Team PT at a disadvantage.

Darth Sidious and his royal guards disagree.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3453088/force-push-o.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj61hjGCHr1qi4mvwo1_500.gif

1. Sidious wasn't KO'd by the TK.

2. The guards are mooks without Force powers.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Sidious wasn't KO'd by the TK.

2. The guards are mooks without Force powers.

1. Who cares?

2. You both said Yoda is averse to using the force offensively. I just pointed out two examples where he has.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060128131308/starwars/images/9/90/Yoda_Yinchorri.JPG

^There's also this. Yoda is no more or less averse to using his abilities offensively when the occasion deems in necessary.

Team 1. Yoda is more powerful than the Barsen'thor, has greater knowledge of the Force, and is a vastly better swordsman. Mace is also a more skilled swordsman than the Hero, and has far greater knowledge of the Force, despite the fact that his raw power may be inferior.

Team 1 in a good fight.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1. Who cares?

If you can't kill using the Force, it kind of removes that advantage, doesn't it?



Considering that's all that Barsenthor does, and the JK isn't adverse to ridiculous Force usage either is kind of the point.



Right, he can do the same thing as Obi-Wan Kenobi, with about lesser frequency.

So this boils down to either two people pushing each other around like a geriatric scuffle or pure saber combat. In any case, HoT and Barsenthor seem far more impressive in terms of victories, feats, and combat readiness than elderly Yoda who runs out of stamina and Mace can't capitalize on Vaapad here.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Team 1. Yoda is more powerful than the Barsen'thor, has greater knowledge of the Force, and is a vastly better swordsman. Mace is also a more skilled swordsman than the Hero, and has far greater knowledge of the Force, despite the fact that his raw power may be inferior.
This is misleading assessment.

Yoda's supposed superiority over Barsen'thor appears to be superficial in the matters of the Force. On top of this, Yoda is restricted to use his lightsaber in this duel.

Mace have no advantage over HoT in any aspect either, I am not sure if Vaapad works against light-siders (most likely not).

I am leaning towards Team 1 after a good fight.

No, Yoda is restricted to the Force in this battle.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Darth Sidious and his royal guards disagree.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3453088/force-push-o.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj61hjGCHr1qi4mvwo1_500.gif

Yoda himself disagrees: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." - ESB and The Jedi Path.

Neither of those were serious attacks meant to hurt people. Unless you think falling over a chair is the extent of Master Yoda's titanic power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Yoda is restricted to the Force in this battle.
My friend, restrictions are as follows:

Yoda and Barsen'thor = Not armed with lightsabers
Mace and HoT = No Force powers

Since Yoda is left to fight without his lightsaber, he's definitely going to use the Force offensively.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My friend, restrictions are as follows:

Yoda and Barsen'thor = Not armed with lightsabers
Mace and HoT = No Force powers

Yes. So Yoda isn't going to be using a lightsaber he doesn't have is he?

Maybe you screwed up your grammar a bit? You said Yoda could only use his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Since Yoda is left to fight without his lightsaber, he's definitely going to use the Force offensively.

Or he'll just keep using it defensively and maybe throw in some counter attacks.

Anyway, if Dooku can press Yoda in a Force duel, the Barsen'thor can overwhelm him in time as Yoda tires.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or he'll just keep using it defensively and maybe throw in some counter attacks.
And when has the Barsen'thor shown great enough Force strength to withstand such counter attacks?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, if Dooku can press Yoda in a Force duel,
When exactly did Dooku ''press'' Yoda in a Force duel?

Originally posted by Nephthys
the Barsen'thor can overwhelm him in time as Yoda tires.
Since Yoda is considerably more powerful than the Barsen'thor, his Force aura is going to make it virtually impossible for Barsen'thor to telekinetically impact Yoda. Conversely, Yoda has displayed Force strength on a bigger scale than the Barsen'thor has, which would allow him to overpower the Barsen'thor's aura.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And when has the Barsen'thor shown great enough Force strength to withstand such counter attacks?

Her feats are good enough for that imo.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When exactly did Dooku ''press'' Yoda in a Force duel?

When Yoda was making obvious grunts and faces of exertion?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Since Yoda is considerably more powerful than the Barsen'thor,

Nah.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
his Force aura is going to make it virtually impossible for Barsen'thor to telekinetically impact Yoda.

Nah.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Conversely, Yoda has displayed Force strength on a bigger scale than the Barsen'thor has,

When?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
which would allow him to overpower the Barsen'thor's aura.

What do you mean by aura?

That was a fast response.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda himself disagrees: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." - ESB and The Jedi Path.

Neither of those were serious attacks meant to hurt people. Unless you think falling over a chair is the extent of Master Yoda's titanic power.

facepalm

Stark provided evidence of Yoda using the Force offensively. You're welcome to say that Yoda's team will still lose; you're even welcome to say that it's not in Yoda's typical behavior to attack with the Force.

But it is an irrefutable, unassailable fact that he has used the Force offensively and will under the proper circumstances.

Period.

I'm not fast. Shut up. You're fast. I have perfect stamina.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Yoda is restricted to the Force in this battle.



Yoda himself disagrees: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." - ESB and The Jedi Path.

Neither of those were serious attacks meant to hurt people. Unless you think falling over a chair is the extent of Master Yoda's titanic power.

So you think tossing a multi-ton Senate pod at someone wouldn't kill them?

He also blatantly plots to assassinate Sidious. Have you ever considered that Yoda changed philosophies after his offense failed so miserably?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Stark provided evidence of Yoda using the Force offensively. You're welcome to say that Yoda's team will still lose; you're even welcome to say that it's not in Yoda's typical behavior to attack with the Force.

But it is an irrefutable, unassailable fact that he has used the Force offensively and will under the proper circumstances.

Period.

Sure, to non-lethally subdue non-force sensitives, take peoples lightsabers or limp-wristedly shove people. If you want to call that offensive then that's your call, but to me it still speaks of Yoda's defensive mindset. I term all of those as self-defense.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So you think tossing a multi-ton Senate pod at someone wouldn't kill them?

He also blatantly plots to assassinate Sidious. Have you ever considered that Yoda changed philosophies after his offense failed so miserably?

If you watch the pod, it never would have actually hit Sidious. Also it was slow as ****, Sidious obviously was gonna dodge.

No, because the quote from the Jedi Path was written a good 80 years before RotS. And its identical to what he says in ESB.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, to non-lethally subdue non-force sensitives, take peoples lightsabers or limp-wristedly shove people. If you want to call that offensive then that's your call, but to me it still speaks of Yoda's defensive mindset. I term all of those as self-defense.

"Destroy the Sith we must!"

After Order 66 he plots to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor, and murder his Executor. ROTS Yoda has no problem killing to end injustice.

Lol at the pod being slow, it was faster than the pods Sidious was throwing with the clear intention to kill him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"Destroy the Sith we must!"

After Order 66 he plots to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor, and murder his Executor. ROTS Yoda has no problem killing to end injustice.

Lol at the pod being slow, it was faster than the pods Sidious was throwing with the clear intention to kill him.

Dude, wut. The pod going upwards was slower than the ones Sidious was raining down at him. I get that Yoda is your favorite character, but come on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When Yoda was making obvious grunts and faces of exertion?
lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you mean by aura?
All Force practitioners has a natural Force aura to protect them. If someone's aura is more powerful than the opponent's Force strength, the opponent in question will be unable to impact him. Dooku, for example, surpassed Kenobi's power in the Force which is why he was able to breach Kenobi's aura and telekinetically remove him from the fight, but Yoda's aura is too powerful for him to break through.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When?
His aura is strong enough to resist any direct attempt at breaking through his aura by Sidious and an amped Dooku.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"Destroy the Sith we must!"

After Order 66 he plots to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor, and murder his Executor. ROTS Yoda has no problem killing to end injustice.

Lol at the pod being slow, it was faster than the pods Sidious was throwing with the clear intention to kill him.

Yoda hasn't ever had problems with killing. He just doesn't do it with the Force.

Not really. And I was more talking about the whole 'wastes time pointlessly spinning it for no ****ing reason.'

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dude, wut. The pod going upwards was slower than the ones Sidious was raining down at him. I get that Yoda is your favorite character, but come on.

Jesus H. Christ, you people are incredible. I point out clear instances where Yoda has used the force to KO, kill, and attempt to kill. And you try and debate the speed of the pod?

I like how you're ignoring the fact that the pod wouldn't have even hit Sidious regardless of the speed.

Seriously, it goes passed him before he even jumps out of the way.

Originally posted by Nephthys




Yoda himself disagrees: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." - ESB and The Jedi Path.

Neither of those were serious attacks meant to hurt people. Unless you think falling over a chair is the extent of Master Yoda's titanic power.


According to Dave Filoni, that was Yoda's Post- ROTS View:

Ultimately the arc -- I guess I'm in a revealing mood today for some things -- but ultimately the arc, since it's centered on Yoda, I thought that was George's answer to the question of why is Yoda like he is in Empire? Why does he say the things he does, and why don't a lot of those things seem reflected in the Jedi as a whole, in the Prequels? He tells Luke, "The Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." Well, there's not much evidence of that in the Prequels. They seem to be attacking quite a bit, attacking with their clones, even in the title. There are a lot of things where Yoda seems to have a complete change of mind for the way things are, post-Revenge of the Sith.

Full interview is here:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/03/18/star-wars-the-clone-wars-dave-filoni-looks-back-at-season-6-and-the-shows-final-episodes?page=4

Originally posted by Nephthys
I like how you're ignoring the fact that the pod wouldn't have even hit Sidious regardless of the speed.

Seriously, it goes passed him before he even jumps out of the way.

If that's true, why did he dodge?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
According to Dave Filoni, that was Yoda's Post- ROTS View:

Ultimately the arc -- I guess I'm in a revealing mood today for some things -- but ultimately the arc, since it's centered on Yoda, I thought that was George's answer to the question of why is Yoda like he is in Empire? Why does he say the things he does, and why don't a lot of those things seem reflected in the Jedi as a whole, in the Prequels? He tells Luke, "The Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." Well, there's not much evidence of that in the Prequels. They seem to be attacking quite a bit, attacking with their clones, even in the title. There are a lot of things where Yoda seems to have a complete change of mind for the way things are, post-Revenge of the Sith.

Full interview is here:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/03/18/star-wars-the-clone-wars-dave-filoni-looks-back-at-season-6-and-the-shows-final-episodes?page=4


Game, set, match. Thanks DP.

Because Lucas is an awful director.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Jesus H. Christ, you people are incredible. I point out clear instances where Yoda has used the force to KO, kill, and attempt to kill. And you try and debate the speed of the pod?

1. Yoda hasn't killed anyone of their stature with TK. Although I admit his TK talent is great (greater still in EU), there's no evidence to suggest he will entirely KO/kill someone with the Force. Mooks and muggles don't count.

2. Yoda didn't do much more than wound Sidious' ego with his TK push.

3. The whole point is that the pod was going super slow, which you asserted otherwise and it was bogus. I called you out on it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Lucas is an awful director.



RotS is a travesty.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
All Force practitioners has a natural Force aura to protect them. If someone's aura is more powerful than the opponent's Force strength, the opponent in question will be unable to impact him. Dooku, for example, surpassed Kenobi's power in the Force which is why he was able to breach Kenobi's aura and telekinetically remove him from the fight, but Yoda's aura is too powerful for him to break through.

Naaaaaah, I don't think thats true. Force users can erect shields and stuff like that but I don't think they have natural defenses against anything.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
His aura is strong enough to resist any direct attempt at breaking through his aura by Sidious and an amped Dooku.

Has that episode officially come out yet? Either way, I'll wait until I can see it so I actually know what happens.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Naaaaaah, I don't think thats true. Force users can erect shields and stuff like that but I don't think they have natural defenses against anything.
That's what I'm talking about. They erect (lol) a Force aura to protect themselves in combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Has that episode officially come out yet? Either way, I'll wait until I can see it so I actually know what happens.
What episode?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Yoda hasn't killed anyone of their stature with TK. Although I admit his TK talent is great (greater still in EU), there's no evidence to suggest he will entirely KO/kill someone with the Force. Mooks and muggles don't count.

2. Yoda didn't do much more than wound Sidious' ego with his TK push.

3. The whole point is that the pod was going super slow, which you asserted otherwise and it was bogus. I called you out on it.


The pod wasn't super slow though.

"YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment."


It was meant to be a near miss. Considering multiple pods were dodged by Yoda with little difficulty, and one pod was a near miss on Sidious it stands to reason Yoda's pod was meant to be faster. Not to mention the logic that tossing something like a frisbee is going to make it go a lot faster than it simply being tossed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's what I'm talking about. They erect (lol) a Force aura to protect themselves in combat.


What episode?

Teeheehee. Ok.

Isn't that what you're talking about? Sidious and Dooku perform a ritual to attack Yoda in an upcoming episode thats only out in spanish or something.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok.

Isn't that what you're talking about? Sidious and Dooku perform a ritual to attack Yoda in an upcoming episode thats only out in spanish or something.

He's talking about the final episode of Clone Wars Season 6.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's what I'm talking about. They erect (lol) a Force aura to protect themselves in combat.

First thing that came to mind:

http://clutch.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/bnb1.jpeg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Teeheehee. Ok.

Isn't that what you're talking about? Sidious and Dooku perform a ritual to attack Yoda in an upcoming episode thats only out in spanish or something.
What does a ritual have to do with their unability to breach his Force aura?

That's bullshit. Force users anticipate Force attacks like any other attacks and form appropriate defense in response. Kenobi was simply caught off guard by that choke.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's bullshit. Force users anticipate Force attacks like any other attacks and form appropriate defense in response. Kenobi was simply caught off guard by that choke.

Ehhh, I do not think he was caught off guard by the choke.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Considering multiple pods were dodged by Yoda with little difficulty, and one pod was a near miss on Sidious it stands to reason Yoda's pod was meant to be faster.

Um, well either that or Sidious wasn't paying attention because he was laughing his ass off.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He's talking about the final episode of Clone Wars Season 6.

Oh I think it is up. Lol @ Sidious shocking Yoda for like 10 seconds to basically no effect.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's bullshit. Force users anticipate Force attacks like any other attacks and form appropriate defense in response. Kenobi was simply caught off guard by that choke.
A Force aura is supposed to be active during combat situations. Kenobi's was active, just not powerful enough to withstand Dooku's Force powers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The pod wasn't super slow though.

Nope.

Video for Reference.

Start watching at 2:44. Sidious' pods, with the exception of the trio he raises for more momentum, hurtle down towards Yoda with good speed. The sole pod Yoda returns, not counting actual time spent prepping the spin (which would get him killed in a real fight where the opponent doesn't just laugh at him pointlessly), it takes a full three seconds to go up at Sidious (before Sidious has to even react).

Now, go back to 3:08. Notice that the distance between them at this point is about 2-3 pod tiers. It takes a full second per pod tier (giving 3 as an estimate, which is generous) to reach Sidious!



This doesn't contradict anything I've said, nor support your argument.



And it was, because Sidious spent like half a minute just laughing into his hand like an autistic child.



Little difficulty? Lol. Yoda was sprawled out from a bad jump right before he caught the pod. Watch the video again.



That's not logic. It's called being biased and not rewatching the video.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

-snip-


This is a ridiculous argument. The speed of the pod is irrelevant. The point is he tried to kill Sidious with it. He killed the Yinchorii warrior I posted below. Filoni blatantly states Yoda and the Jedi's view on using the force changed between ROTS and ESB. Just concede the goddamned point already.

Yoda kills the Barsen'thor then TKs HoT to the wall while Mace kills him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This is a ridiculous argument.

You made the assertion.



It's relevant if you bring it up as evidence.



He tried to kill Sidious period. He never did any real damage with the Force. Aside from defensive use against lightning (Which HoT and Barsenthor don't use) his TK is not any more deadly than is Obi'Wan's.



And those Imperial guards never woke up. But none of them are Force users, who can canonically take far more abuse.



It's not really my whole point. Arguing that Yoda can kill anything or incapacitate anything with TK begs for proof. Proof which you haven't provided.



LOLNOPE.

Mace will be struggling with HoT, since the latter is a saber prodigy of the highest order on top of being a Force titan and Vaapad won't be very good against a light-sider. Meanwhile, Barsenthor can stalemate Yoda if not actually damage the little guy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He tried to kill Sidious period.

Concession accepted.



And Yoda will use the appropriate force




Yeah Yoda has destroyed entire armies of droids, and massive starships with his force power. The Barsen'thor will be easy in comparison.




Lol at the Barsen'thor stalemating Yoda. Yoda puts him down then goes to help Mace. And also wasn't the HoT DS?

If Dooku is able as you say to overpower Kenobi's protective aura, then he would be able to get read of Kenobi anytime. Yet, in tcw he had harder time against them and did not get read of Kenobi.
And Kenobi proved that he has strong Force defences, when he stalemated Anakin.

Jedi can be caught off guard by Force attack, silly to deny that:

He glimpsed a tall figure in a black pressure suit.

Then the figure flicked one of his hands, and Luke found himself flying backward, bouncing off YVH droids and tumbling out of control. He reached out in the Force, grabbing at passing hatches, the ceiling, even Raynar himself, but he was whirling too fast to catch hold of anything.

He hit the end of the corridor with a tremendous clung, unsure whether he was upside down or sideways, then crashed to the floor struggling to remain conscious.

You know what happened, when Thul tried to Force attack Luke again.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Concession accepted.

This isn't a brownie point for you since your assertion Yoda will win using just the Force remains unproven. Whether or not he's a total pacifist isn't my argument, and your strawmanning is ridiculous.



Proof?



You mean in the 2003 CW series? The one where every Jedi can Force Push entire armies?

K.




Someone hasn't played TOR obviously.

And no, HoT is the Jedi Knight class protagonist.

Originally posted by Arhael
If Dooku is able as you say to overpower Kenobi's protective aura, then he would be able to get read of Kenobi anytime.
No, it's a lot harder to breach an aura than you think. It takes an extreme amount of concentration to do so.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This isn't a brownie point for you since your assertion Yoda will win using just the Force remains unproven. Whether or not he's a total pacifist isn't my argument, and your strawmanning is ridiculous.



Proof?



You mean in the 2003 CW series? The one where every Jedi can Force Push entire armies?

K.




Someone hasn't played TOR obviously.

And no, HoT is the Jedi Knight class protagonist.


Yes it is. Its not like Yoda's more morally opposed to killing Force Users than non-force users.

Every Jedi cannot force push entire armies. Aayla and numerous other Jedi get trapped by crab droids, Kenobi struggles against Durge, ect. ect. Only Mace and Yoda dominate armies which is fine.

No I have. And the Barsen'thor also would rather talk someone down than use the force to kill someone. In fact by that logic the Barsen'thor has never used TK to kill someone either.
But Tol Braga is canonically dead.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes it is. Its not like Yoda's more morally opposed to killing Force Users than non-force users.

Are you intentionally missing the point or just accidentally?

Yoda does not normally kill. Sidious is about the only real exception among Force users, and he does not kill him with the Force alone. Indeed, the large majority of Yoda's dominance is established with his lightsaber.
In his battle against Dooku, Yoda could not/did not win through Force alone, but had to resort to using his lightsaber.
Yoda has never killed a Force user just using the Force.
Muggles don't have Force resistance, and are notably less tanky.
You haven't shown evidence of Yoda killing or incapacitating a Force user. The only example I can think of is disarming Ventress, who is well below either hero Mace and Yoda are up against here.



But you ignore that the series is both questionably no longer canon and grossly exaggerates feats. If Yoda and Mace had TK like that, all enemies of the Jedi would be thrown into orbit or smashed against the wall into pieces. Geonosis wouldn't have had a single fatality.

But wait, it did. And they didn't. So therefore it stands to reason they can't.



Really? Then how could you confuse the Hero of Tython with a dark-sider?



LS HoT can turn Tol Braga back to the light side, IIRC. In any case, you're strawmanning again, in an attempt to make my points seem ridiculous and 'win', despite the fact that what I took most issue with was your bogus "YODA POD IS FASTUR" comment that was explicitly bogus and disproven with canon evidence. If you're going to lie and misrepresent the most widely available source to us all about your favorite character, why should I believe your opinion of how he stacks up against these two?

I made the argument that the HoT is dark side canonically. What Stark means is that in the Imperial Agent storyline, someone says that Tol Braga is dead after Corellia. Since killing Tol Braga or getting him killed is a DS choice, it stands to reason the HoT is a dark sider.

Also Scourge says the HoT is touched by darkness when you first meet him, regardless of your gameplay alignment and his vision heavily implies the HoT becoming the next Sith Emperor IMHO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I made the argument that the HoT is dark side canonically. What Stark means is that in the Imperial Agent storyline, someone says that Tol Braga is dead after Corellia. Since killing Tol Braga or getting him killed is a DS choice, it stands to reason the HoT is a dark sider.

Also Scourge says the HoT is touched by darkness when you first meet him, regardless of your gameplay alignment and his vision heavily implies the HoT becoming the next Sith Emperor IMHO.

Hrm. Interesting. Hadn't gotten that far with my IA (I need to though, love that class) and I had forgotten the Scourge comment.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, it's a lot harder to breach an aura than you think. It takes an extreme amount of concentration to do so. Anakin couldn't breach Kenobi's defense despite being empowered by rage. Dooku choked him during duel despite having Anakin behind, there was no time to focus extreme amount of concentration.

This:

Luke extended himself toward the glow, slamming his Force presence into Welk. It was like trying to push Qoribu out of orbit. Welk continued to come, bringing his blade around in a brazen full-reach attack.
Luke didn't even try to block. The Dark Jedi was strong-even stronger than Saba had said-but great strength was like great power. It seduced those who had it, lulled them into relying on might when other tools were better. Luke reversed tactics, pulling his attacker toward him. Welk tumbled forward, his hoarse voice croaking in alarm, his scarred face dropping toward Alema's silver blade.
...
Luke reached out in the Force, bringing his thumb and forefinger together.

Welk's lipless mouth fell open. Dire gurgling sounds began to rise from his throat-and then Luke remembered Alema's sacrifice of the membrosia giver. Had he grown that casual about killing? So accustomed to the power he wielded that he would use it to kill when he had other means to defend himself?

This passage demonstrates well how Force defense works. Luke was umable to push Welk, yet succeeded in Force pulling. And while Force pushing Welk was compared to "trying to push Qoribu out of orbit", he was still able to catch him with Force choke without any extreme concentration. It's all about outwitting opponent.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin couldn't breach Kenobi's defense despite being empowered by rage.
Because Anakin's emotions hindered his ability to operate his Force powers properly.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's all about outwitting opponent.

But that's just how fights work though right? Faking a Jab, but instead hitting them with a Right Cross.

I just think Dooku always outfights Kenobi in one way or another. In TCW it was via kicks, whilst in ROTS it was via TK attacks.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
-snip-

Yoda's TK feats are better than the Barsen'thor. Also the Barsen'thor hasn't ever put someone down with the force either so your point is moot. At worst Yoda would just deflect all of the Barsen'thor's attacks back in his face with more power.

Also regardless of whether the HoT is a LS guy or a DS (personally I think he's a Lightsider with a ton of inner darkness not dissimilar to Mace himself) Mace's Vaapad will be useful against him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I made the argument that the HoT is dark side canonically. What Stark means is that in the Imperial Agent storyline, someone says that Tol Braga is dead after Corellia. Since killing Tol Braga or getting him killed is a DS choice, it stands to reason the HoT is a dark sider.

Also Scourge says the HoT is touched by darkness when you first meet him, regardless of your gameplay alignment and his vision heavily implies the HoT becoming the next Sith Emperor IMHO.

I don't think that will ever happen. HoT will never become the next Emperor...it just wouldn't work story wise.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda's TK feats are better than the Barsen'thor. Also the Barsen'thor hasn't ever put someone down with the force either so your point is moot. At worst Yoda would just deflect all of the Barsen'thor's attacks back in his face with more power.

Also regardless of whether the HoT is a LS guy or a DS (personally I think he's a Lightsider with a ton of inner darkness not dissimilar to Mace himself) Mace's Vaapad will be useful against him.



I don't think that will ever happen. HoT will never become the next Emperor...it just wouldn't work story wise.

Only his CW mini feats are superior imo. Also the Barsen'thor definitely has killed people with the Force. The class descriptions are all about the Consular fighting with 'startling feats of telekinesis' "manipulating massive forces to disable or even destroy their enemies" and "moving massive waves of energy that tear apart ". You can't really deflect TK.

Meh, I'm not so sure about that.

Again, I'm not so sure. I could see them going that route at the very end of game.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is misleading assessment.

Yoda's supposed superiority over Barsen'thor appears to be superficial in the matters of the Force. On top of this, Yoda is restricted to use his lightsaber in this duel.

Mace have no advantage over HoT in any aspect either, I am not sure if Vaapad works against light-siders (most likely not).

I am leaning towards Team 2 after a good fight.

I concede that I didn't read the OP, so it seems Mace/HoT can't use Force Attacks, and Yoda/Barsen don't have their lightsabers. This fight got a bit more interesting.

However, Team 1 will still win. Yoda has smashed two C-9979 landing crafts into one another, pushed multiple armored assault tanks back into their cargo hold, sent dozens of troopers flying with a Force Wave, and easily broke the force defenses of Ventress--Disarming her casually. These telekinetic feats are just as potent as the Barsen's, and Yoda's ability in all other aspects of the Force (Foresight, Tutaminis, etc.) are all above the likeness of what the Barsen'thor has shown. He's also a better unarmed combatant.

As for the Hero of Tython and Mace--The Hero's best shot was his sheer raw power, which even Vitiate found admirable. In a contest of pure saber ability, the Hero honestly has little against Mace.

The Hero has defeated Praven, who was greater than even one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order, while still relatively early in the game. He's also beaten Scourge--Who even the Dark Council fears--Through merit of lightsaber skill, and he even cut down the Imperial Guard on his way to Vitiate. However, Mace is one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order's history and casually defeated Sora Bulq--Who was also one of the most experienced and skilled lightsaber instructors ever produced by the Order--And he has even matched Palpatine--A master of all 7 forms and the strongest of all Sith--in a bout of sheer skill.

In truth, this will be a pretty close battle--But Team 1 will win.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is misleading assessment.

Yoda's supposed superiority over Barsen'thor appears to be superficial in the matters of the Force. On top of this, Yoda is restricted to use his lightsaber in this duel.

Mace have no advantage over HoT in any aspect either, I am not sure if Vaapad works against light-siders (most likely not).

I am leaning towards Team 2 after a good fight.

I concede that I didn't read the OP, so it seems Mace/HoT can't use Force Attacks, and Yoda/Barsen don't have their lightsabers. This fight got a bit more interesting.

However, Team 1 will still win. Yoda has smashed two C-9979 landing crafts into one another, pushed multiple armored assault tanks back into their cargo hold, sent dozens of troopers flying with a Force Wave, and easily broke the force defenses of Ventress--Disarming her casually. These telekinetic feats are just as potent as the Barsen's, and Yoda's ability in all other aspects of the Force (Foresight, Tutaminis, etc.) are all above the likeness of what the Barsen'thor has shown. He's also a better unarmed combatant.

As for the Hero of Tython and Mace--The Hero's best shot was his sheer raw power, which even Vitiate found admirable. In a contest of pure saber ability, the Hero honestly has little against Mace.

The Hero has defeated Praven, who was greater than even one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order, while still relatively early in the game. He's also beaten Scourge--Who even the Dark Council fears--Through merit of lightsaber skill, and he even cut down the Imperial Guard on his way to Vitiate. However, Mace is one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order's history and casually defeated Sora Bulq--Who was also one of the most experienced and skilled lightsaber instructors ever produced by the Order--And he has even matched Palpatine--A master of all 7 forms and the strongest of all Sith--in a bout of sheer skill.

As for the Vaapad bullshit, you do know it's primary purpose is to channel Mace's own inner darkness, yes? A secondary conduit is not needed.

In truth, this will be a pretty close battle--But Team 1 will win.

EDIT: Crap, accidental double post. Sorry.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda kills the Barsen'thor then TKs HoT to the wall while Mace kills him.


When have Yoda ever managed to kill an individual of great power?

For all his power, Yoda is not as effective combatant as he should be. In-fact, Yoda is disappointing IMO.

Also, you think that Barsen'thor is easy to overwhelm?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Smashes through a huge blast door.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/30f33c05a03920427cccee1290d51490/tumblr_mnu9ayeG0s1rbwuv5o1_500.png

http://25.media.tumblr.com/987fe392f1ff526beec47ae6dbc1d448/tumblr_mnu9ayeG0s1rbwuv5o2_500.png

Have a good look at the damage that Barsen'thor inflicted with a gesture without any difficulty and this event occurred during the early phase of his story arc. By the end of his story arc...

In addition, Barsen'thor have excellent combat record, defeated dark side prodigies such as Vivicar and First Son.

Yoda needs much more then this TK abilities to overwhelm Barsen'thor and I don't think he is as smart as Barsen'thor in the matters of combat.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Every Jedi cannot force push entire armies. Aayla and numerous other Jedi get trapped by crab droids, Kenobi struggles against Durge, ect. ect. Only Mace and Yoda dominate armies which is fine.
In the latest CW series, Yoda couldn't dominate armies. This was made clear in the first episode of Season 1.

CW mini series is not a reliable medium for assessment of capabilities of Jedi. Some actions in it are not acknowledged in written literature.

You're asking for Yoda's showings against opponents of great power? How about stalemating the most powerful Sith Lord that ever lived?

That blast door feat isn't as good as the ones I've aforementioned on Yoda's case. Also--You're saying Yoda will need much more than TK to defeat the Barsen'thor? The Barsen has nothing *but* TK feats, dude.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's bullshit. Force users anticipate Force attacks like any other attacks and form appropriate defense in response. Kenobi was simply caught off guard by that choke.

Beg your pardon but no, it is not.

Shatterpoint pg. 243:

"Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training."

Darth Bane Path of Destruction pg. 128

"One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them."

That being said, a smart fighter can breach the shield by attacking from an unexpected angle, like your example of Luke vs. Welk.

Anyway, regarding Yoda vs. Barsen'thor, keep in mind that she fought Vivicar after fighting through a ship full of soldiers, while she had previously drained her own power by shielding several Jedi from the Dark Plague (it was specified that the energy she spent shielding said Jedi would only return to her when Vivicar was dead) and Vivicar was siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi.

And she still beat him.

So I'd say the Barsen'thor is stronger than Yoda.

team 1 wins....
weilding Vaapad against the light is no hard feat....created from Juyo...remember Mace can use his
inner darkness to fuel Vaapad....when you have no emotion to draw from....draw from within....

Mace has TK skills read about Grievous and Kar....and pushing an AT -TE walker off a cliff...
levitating 2 clone troopers w/the Force acoss the length of a bridge(with no bridge across a chasm)

he demonstrated his proficiency in the application of the Force wave....
Shatter Point....

it will be a close battle , I agree 100%,but team 1 will win....

They said you couldn't use Juyo against a light sider....you can
and Vaapad is no different in this situation....

Originally posted by juyomaster34


Mace has TK skills read about Grievous and Kar....and pushing an AT -TE walker off a cliff...
levitating 2 clone troopers w/the Force acoss the length of a bridge(with no bridge across a chasm)

he demonstrated his proficiency in the application of the Force wave....
Shatter Point....

The OP specified that neither Mace nor the Hero of Tython can use offensive Force powers.

okay...I'll reread the first thread.....

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but no, it is not.

Shatterpoint pg. 243:

"Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training."

Darth Bane Path of Destruction pg. 128

"One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them."

That being said, a smart fighter can breach the shield by attacking from an unexpected angle, like your example of Luke vs. Welk.

Anyway, regarding Yoda vs. Barsen'thor, keep in mind that she fought Vivicar after fighting through a ship full of soldiers, while she had previously drained her own power by shielding several Jedi from the Dark Plague (it was specified that the energy she spent shielding said Jedi would only return to her when Vivicar was dead) and Vivicar was siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi.

And she still beat him.

So I'd say the Barsen'thor is stronger than Yoda.

Yoda fights through battle droid armies and the casually disarms ventress for breakfast.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda fights through battle droid armies and the casually disarms ventress for breakfast.

In the CW mini where everyone was exaggerated. As Legend accurately put, Yoda wasn't able to solo a droid army in the very first episode of the CGI CW show. Casually pwning Ventress is cool, though any top tier person should be capable of doing that. The Barsen'thor could.

Also its not like the Barsen'thor doesn't fight through armies. Corellia is just her non-stop taking out "impenetrable" fortresses by herself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the CW mini where everyone was exaggerated. As Legend accurately put, Yoda wasn't able to solo a droid army in the very first episode of the CGI CW show. Casually pwning Ventress is cool, though any top tier person should be capable of doing that. The Barsen'thor could.

What are you talking about? He did solo it. Every single unit sans for a few Destroyer droids, which he could have ended in any number of ways.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the CW mini where everyone was exaggerated. As Legend accurately put, Yoda wasn't able to solo a droid army in the very first episode of the CGI CW show. Casually pwning Ventress is cool, though any top tier person should be capable of doing that. The Barsen'thor could.


Not really a valid argument saying that because Yoda did it then Barsen'thor should also be able to do it Imho.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
What are you talking about? He did solo it. Every single unit sans for a few Destroyer droids, which he could have ended in any number of ways.

You know what I meant. He resorted to trickery and taking advantage of the droids utter incompetence. He didn't just run in and demolish them with Force Waves or chew through them like a buzzcutter.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really a valid argument saying that because Yoda did it then Barsen'thor should also be able to do it Imho.

Good thing thats not what I said then.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You know what I meant. He resorted to trickery and taking advantage of the droids utter incompetence. He didn't just run in and demolish them with Force Waves or chew through them like a buzzcutter.

Yes he did that exactly.
watch?v=wmwWKrtPW9g

He cuts through one tank's crew, moves on to the next and has it destroy the empty tank by firing at him. Then rips out the crew of the second tank, then he outright cuts the last tank in half. All while slicing and dicing the infantry. Where does he resort to trickery?

Also Filoni blatantly says the reason he didn't do more episodes with Yoda is because his presence means it won't be much of a battle. Why? Because Yoda by himself can route entire armies.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda fights through battle droid armies and the casually disarms ventress for breakfast.

And your point is?

I mean yes, it's impressive but like I said, Vivicar was siphoning the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. Was Ventress doing that? No she wasn't.

Also like I said, the Barsen'thor had used her shielding ability to protect multiple Jedi from Vivicar's madness-inducing plague. Specifically she shielded six Jedi and had to use the ability on Yuon twice. It was stated that each use of the technique weakened her and she wouldn't regain the energy she expended until Vivicar was defeated (it is repeatedly stated how pale and weak she looks after each shielding).

Was Yoda in such a drastically weakened state when he fought through those armies? No, he wasn't.

So again, I see the Barsen'thor as stronger than Yoda.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You're asking for Yoda's showings against opponents of great power? How about stalemating the most powerful Sith Lord that ever lived?
Had it not been for idiocy of Sidious, Yoda would have been dead in the early stage of that clash. Do you recall how easily Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with a single blast of lightning?

Yoda, for all his power and knowledge, have not been able to capitalize on his abilities properly during combat situations (I get this impression from his performances). His shortcomings are psychological perhaps.

Barsen'thor, on the other hand, have defeated even "masters of the Force." This is indication of extremely smart decision-making potential, great power and talent pool on part of Barsen'thor on the whole.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That blast door feat isn't as good as the ones I've aforementioned on Yoda's case.
You missed the point, we don't even know how good Barsen'thor is with the Force yet. Barsen'thor effortlessely destroyed that gigantic blast door (event occurred during early phase of his story arc). By the end of his story arc, Barsen'thor would be mind-bogglingly powerful; Barsen'thor proves this by defeating First Son.

In case of Yoda, we have seen his best.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also--You're saying Yoda will need much more than TK to defeat the Barsen'thor? The Barsen has nothing *but* TK feats, dude.
You are wrong! Barsen'thor was/is extremely talented in the ways of the Force and specializes in esoteric matters.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
And your point is?

I mean yes, it's impressive but like I said, Vivicar was siphoning the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. Was Ventress doing that? No she wasn't.

Unquantifiable increase in power. Vitiate siphoned the power of thousands of Sith, and yet is still inferior to Sidious.



And Yoda resisted a Sith Ritual from Darths Tyranus and Sidious while weakened on a Dark Side Nexus.


Their completely different feats.



Yoda has destroyed fully loaded 150m long transports, TK'ed Darth Sidious, reflected Darth Sidious' lightning, resisted a ritual from Darths Tyranus and Sidious designed to kill him while standing on one of the greatest Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy, solo'd armies, forced Dooku in retreat while not even using the Force offensively, casually owned Ventress who has in turn made a mockery of some of the most powerful Masters in the Order's 25,000 year history. What more do you need?

The Barsen'thor on the otherhand has been blasted by lightning by the Children of the Emperor, and has only shown a defense against lightning ala lightsaber. So unless you think Yoda's force abilities are inferior to a generic child of the Emperor, he's getting past the Barsen'thor's defences.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he did that exactly.
watch?v=wmwWKrtPW9g

He cuts through one tank's crew, moves on to the next and has it destroy the empty tank by firing at him. Then rips out the crew of the second tank, then he outright cuts the last tank in half. All while slicing and dicing the infantry. Where does he resort to trickery?

Also Filoni blatantly says the reason he didn't do more episodes with Yoda is because his presence means it won't be much of a battle. Why? Because Yoda by himself can route entire armies.

No, he didn't.

He tricked them into coming into range and caught them off guard. Plus they ****ing suck. The CIS droids are bar none the least threatening troops in Star Wars.

Bottom line: I don't rate defeating 30 retarded robots highly at all. These guys are utter jokes.

Whereas the Barsen'thor fought through real troops and real armies. Like when she fought through a Star Destroyer of mentally-controlled Republic soldiers, while weakened and still defeated a Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Unquantifiable increase in power. Vitiate siphoned the power of thousands of Sith, and yet is still inferior to Sidious.

Because most of it goes to maintaining his immortality.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Unquantifiable increase in power. Vitiate siphoned the power of thousands of Sith, and yet is still inferior to Sidious.
This is fanon until confirmed.

Nonetheless, Sith Emperor siphons power of others to maintain his immortality and distribute his power among others to increase his reach across the galaxy.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The Barsen'thor on the otherhand has been blasted by lightning by the Children of the Emperor, and has only shown a defense against lightning ala lightsaber. So unless you think Yoda's force abilities are inferior to a generic child of the Emperor, he's getting past the Barsen'thor's defences.
Children of the Emperor are dark manifestations of Sith Emperor himself within large number of individuals and can contend with even incredibly powerful Force-users. However, Children also vary in power and effectiveness since Sith Emperor cannot overcome their natural shortcomings for long without risking destroying them. First Son was/is the most powerful Child yet known and he have demonstrated some Sidious level abilities.

Also, in the game, even HoT tackles Sith lightning with his lightsaber. However, this could be a game engine limitation. Consider the case of Revan; no one knew that he could pull Yoda with Sith lightning from his actions in the game until he was featured in literature.

Both HoT and Barsen'thor are logically expected to have amazing understanding the Force as well.

Originally posted by Lord Stark




Yoda has destroyed fully loaded 150m long transports, TK'ed Darth Sidious, reflected Darth Sidious' lightning, resisted a ritual from Darths Tyranus and Sidious designed to kill him while standing on one of the greatest Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy, solo'd armies, forced Dooku in retreat while not even using the Force offensively, casually owned Ventress who has in turn made a mockery of some of the most powerful Masters in the Order's 25,000 year history. What more do you need?



And that's all Yoda in his very old age. It makes me wonder how powerful he was in his prime. He probably rivaled NJO Luke. Make that Yoda movie Disney!

Yoda already rivals NJO Luke.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also--You're saying Yoda will need much more than TK to defeat the Barsen'thor? The Barsen has nothing *but* TK feats, dude.

Shielding multiple Jedi from a madness-inducing plague doesn't sound like "TK" to me.

Plus she also has feats of healing severely wounded individuals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he didn't.

Yes he did.



Caught them off guard? Did you watch the video? He was sitting their meditating.

Its a kids show the villains are shown in a joking light for the kids. The droids are far from 'retarded', and there were somewhere in the range of a thousand droids.

Furthermore it is the greatest droid army the galaxy has ever known.



Canonically the battle droids of the CIS and the Clone Armies of the Republic are the largest and most powerful armies to clash in galactic history.




Proof?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is fanon until confirmed.
Yeah the only thing that's fanon are your assertions about Vitiate.



And yet when the Children of the Emperor fell his power didn't magically increase.



All I see is a bunch of assertions. No proof.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Shielding multiple Jedi from a madness-inducing plague doesn't sound like "TK" to me.

Plus she also has feats of healing severely wounded individuals.

That's not combat feat. And Yoda has shielded himself from a DS ritual on a DS nexus from two of the greatest Sith Lords in galactic history.

Why are feats against droids admissable evidence? They can't defend themselves against Force users. Only the weakest of the Jedi die to droids in the mythos.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Why are feats against droids admissable evidence? They can't defend themselves against Force users. Only the weakest of the Jedi die to droids in the mythos.

Arca Jeth would have a word with you.

Touche.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he did.

Oh really? Wheres the amazing Force powers? You remember that thats what we're talking about in this thread right? So wheres him lifting hundreds of destroyers into the sky? Or smashing two transports together? Or pushing scores of batle droids back with Force Waves?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Caught them off guard? Did you watch the video? He was sitting their meditating.

Yes, I did. He waited until they were asking for orders and stuff.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its a kids show the villains are shown in a joking light for the kids. The droids are far from 'retarded', and there were somewhere in the range of a thousand droids.

You mean like when Darth Maul kills children and massacres an entire town? Or Adi Gallia gets gored on-screen?Or the whole baby kidnapping storyline?

No, the droids are retarded. They are really, really stupid and incompetent. And a thousand? Wtf are you smoking? There are twenty to thirty in the video. I counted.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Furthermore it is the greatest droid army the galaxy has ever known.

Yeah, and if you watch the video you might notice that Yoda only has to block a grand total of 2 to 3 blaster bolts because the standard troops are so horrendously inaccurate they somehow keep missing from 5 feet away. Despite Yoda standing still and in the open multiple times.

Only the destroyers are a remote threat.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Canonically the battle droids of the CIS and the Clone Armies of the Republic are the largest and most powerful armies to clash in galactic history.

Just because theres a lot of them doesn't negate the fact that the standard battle droid is less threatening than a drunk ewok. At least the ewok wouldn't destroy its own tank through sheer idiocy.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Proof?

Well its pretty obvious for one thing. Unless you seriously think the power of 8 thousand Sith lords isn't enough to bridge the gap between Vitiate and Sidious. And yeah, its not that for some reason he only got .01% of each of their power (which is still 80 Sith Lords btw). SWTORE says "The pain, energy and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries." Vitiates drain was so complete he drained all the Force on the planet, all life on the planet and all the freaking COLOR on the planet. If he was really using everything he drained, or even a fraction, he would already be a god.

Nevertheless, in Revan its stated that Vitiate is sapping power from him to fuel his bottomless hunger and to extend his existence. If he didn't require a shitton of energy, that obviously wouldn't be needed. There are a few other mentions of such things and I think its outright stated at one point that most of it goes to his immortality but I can't be asked to look through all the material.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's not combat feat.

That's not the point.

The point is that NewGuy01 was claiming that the Barsen'thor has nothing but telekinetic feats and that is not the case. She has several feats besides telekinesis. That's all I'm saying.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
And Yoda has shielded himself from a DS ritual on a DS nexus from two of the greatest Sith Lords in galactic history.

Again, that's highly impressive. Not saying otherwise.

I just think that the Barsen'thor's feat is more impressive.

Shes also able to sense and see events occurring on Makeb whilst meditating her ship in the expansion. Which is pretty neat.

(not saying thats better than Yoda, but its a non-TK feat)

Anyway, since like, 99% of offensive Jedi techniques are TK based its a bit silly to criticise her for only having TK feats. Also, do Force shields count as TK? The Barsen'thor tanked an explosion that vaporised a blast door to the face and blocks a lightsaber with a bubble if you try to kill the First Son. And she resists his telepathy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh really? Wheres the amazing Force powers? You remember that thats what we're talking about in this thread right? So wheres him lifting hundreds of destroyers into the sky? Or smashing two transports together? Or pushing scores of batle droids back with Force Waves?

He chose to dispatch them with his saber. As he did on Ilum in the cartoon...which is still canon and referenced by a G-canon source as canon.




Not at all. They shot first...with a tank I might add.



Yeah all of which is exactly why it got canceled. It was too dark for a child audience anymore. You're comparing the first episode of the first season to the last season.



Doesn't matter if you counted there were dozens more off screen. Its specifically stated that there's a battalion of troops. Battalion strength in the GAR is 660, the CIS have larger battalions and irl battalion strength is anywhere from 300-1200 troops. I'd imagine the CIS is closer to the 1200 area considering this.
"You were right, Dooku.
One Jedi is not worth 100 battle droids.
More like, 1,000."




Its supposed to be more. Budgetary limitations likely stopped them from showing all the on screen droids.



Riiight because only destroyers are a threat to Jedi.




The tank was already immobilized. And you clearly haven't been paying attention. Stormtroopers in the OT are scarcely better than the battledroids, and yet some of these are the same men who gunned down Jedi Knights in the hundreds during the storming of the Temple.




No my point is that siphoning power from Sith Lords and force users doesn't mean ALL their potential power is suddenly flowing through you.



I don't remember that quote at all. But I think it stands to reason that when you are draining someone you don't have access to all their power one way or another. Unless you actually think the Barsen'thor can solo hundreds of Masters at once.

Neph, in these very same series and it's tie-in comics we see Windu reduce a large group of battle droids to pieces of scrap with a mere force push, Maul and Savage ragdoll armies of droids and non-droids alike with force waves, and Dooku does the same. You should watch the entire episode and you'd know why Yoda didn't go in on the droids as hard as he could have: he was teaching two non-force using clones that their mind is their best weapon on the battle field, thus teaching them to use strategy to overcome their opponents. That was the moral of Yoda's lesson and the episode. If Yoda went in on the droids, crushing them all with mere gestures, then what would non-force using clones learn from that? Think about it. Something Yoda didn't do does not mean it's something he's incapable of doing.

As for him destroying those landing crafts, I don't see that as an exaggeration of Yoda's TK, given how his equal (Sidious) can easily ragdoll and overpower force users (even two of them at once) who can move around star ships or objects bigger than ships. I don't see why Yoda shouldn't be able move around much bigger objects than his inferiors can, do you? If we limit Yoda's TK to that single episode, then he is nowhere near the level of Sidious, despite, you know, being Sidious' equal, even packing enough power to send Palpatine flying several feet in the air and over his desk with TK.


Game play mechanics are usually exaggerated, but yet you accept Revan's meteor shower as canon, despite him not doing anything remotely comparable in his novel.

Dave Filoni stated long ago that the Clone War mini showed an "exaggerated" use of the Force. He even specifically brought up the example of Mace Windu saying something along the lines of "you can't have Mace Windu destroying hundreds of droids, because if they could do that then they would have cleaned up of Geonosis."

Interesting, do you have an exact link for that? ^

No, I'd have to look for it. Nai put it up ages ago. He was saying that towards the beginning of TCW. And it was also his reason for Dooku getting ambushed by 30 pirates. That's in the commentary to that episode.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dave Filoni stated long ago that the Clone War mini showed an "exaggerated" use of the Force. He even specifically brought up the example of Mace Windu saying something along the lines of "you can't have Mace Windu destroying hundreds of droids, because if they could do that then they would have cleaned up of Geonosis."

The problem is Filoni also claimed that the EU isn't canon. He treats it the same that Lucas treats it, "a base of ideas". He has also claimed that Han Solo can't understand Chewie.

Ultimately, I wouldn't treat anything he says as gospel unless it deals with his series itself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, in these very same series and it's tie-in comics we see Windu reduce a large group of battle droids to pieces of scrap with a mere force push, Maul and Savage ragdoll armies of droids and non-droids alike with force waves, and Dooku does the same. You should watch the entire episode and you'd know why Yoda didn't go in on the droids as hard as he could have: he was teaching two non-force using clones that their mind is their best weapon on the battle field, thus teaching them to use strategy to overcome their opponents. That was the moral of Yoda's lesson and the episode. If Yoda went in on the droids, crushing them all with mere gestures, then what would non-force using clones learn from that? Think about it. Something Yoda didn't do does not mean it's something he's incapable of doing.

As for him destroying those landing crafts, I don't see that as an exaggeration of Yoda's TK, given how his equal (Sidious) can easily ragdoll and overpower force users (even two of them at once) who can move around star ships or objects bigger than ships. I don't see why Yoda shouldn't be able move around much bigger objects than his inferiors can, do you? If we limit Yoda's TK to that single episode, then he is nowhere near the level of Sidious, despite, you know, being Sidious' equal, even packing enough power to send Palpatine flying several feet in the air and over his desk with TK.


Game play mechanics are usually exaggerated, but yet you accept Revan's meteor shower as canon, despite him not doing anything remotely comparable in his novel.

Originally posted by ares834
The problem is Filoni also claimed that the EU isn't canon. He treats it the same that Lucas treats it, "a base of ideas". He has also claimed that Han Solo can't understand Chewie.

Ultimately, I wouldn't treat anything he says as gospel unless it deals with his series itself.

But what he was saying there was dealing with the series. He was explaining how Windu can't do that (in his higher canon series) because if he could then he would have cleaned house on Geonosis.

I'm all for some rules setting out when we take Filoni's words as canon and when we don't. But I'd say given the daily in depth discussions he's had with Lucas over the past several years, he's probably right 8/10 times. Oh and on this particular topic (of the CW Mini feats) he actually mentioned it was discussed with Lucas.

Also I don't remember him saying the EU isn't canon. He's always said he has a lot of respect for the EU, and borrow many ideas from there. But in terms of canonicity it's true his series takes precedence over any other EU material.

Filoni's series is higher canon than novels, games, or comics, to be sure. That's not in question.

What IS in question is the CW miniseries, which is over ten years old, animated with an exaggerated style that breaks the suspension of disbelief surrounding other 'equally valid' canon, and seems to not jive with the longer lasting, newer Clone Wars series.

In terms of G-canon conflicts, newer content overrides older content. Unless there's something explicit which says the Force usage in the miniseries is legit (and somehow explains the holding back present elsewhere), I see no reason to entertain it as valid, consistent evidence.

ok read the first thread....still team 1.
Vaapad has an unarmed component so between Mace and HoT...
The duel will be hand to hand then...last I checked Vaapad has a HTH method....

should be a walk in the park....HTH can be used without The Force......
Question is can HoT fight HTH without The Force?

next....ok why shouldn't that be considered a feat for Mace?
then if that's the case Yoda,Obi Wan,and Anakin did some questionable things...
And the Fight at Geonosis would have been over....

What I saw was a sample of how Vaapad works against droids...with or without a light saber ...
it maybe a little exaggerated but they show other Jedi who exaggerates their Force use, too.

Yoda and Sidious being two for example....
The Battle of Dantooine happened after Geonosis....off panel or camera whatever,all the Masters
Knights trained for the upcoming battles against the droid army.....

besides imo I saw Mace getting loose.....better than that episode with Jar Jar .....
that was a big slap in the face.....he could have redid the Battle of Dantooine.....
He could had him duel against Dooku,Sora Bulq, helll anything....he could have came here and
got some ideas........

Jar Jar...really they should have killed Jar Jar ....instead of Savage or Fives....or that twin Jedi knight female....I forgot her name.....

Then the rules should have been set for everyone and not just Windu...who gets an episode....the catch
is... we won't see Vaapad...no sir...we see silly ass Jar Jar...That episode was a complete joke...
which ain't funny...I see it will take a more serious writer to give us an episode with Mace either kicking ass or trying to deal with Depa being in a coma and what exactly did he learn from
Haruun Kal..... how it's truly affecting him when the Council isn't around....

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Filoni's series is higher canon than novels, games, or comics, to be sure. That's not in question.


Which, as I said, has Maul and Savage flooring armies and Mace reducing a large group of destroyer droids to scrap with a mere force push.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What IS in question is the CW miniseries, which is over ten years old, animated with an exaggerated style that breaks the suspension of disbelief surrounding other 'equally valid' canon, and seems to not jive with the longer lasting, newer Clone Wars series.


Some of it is exaggerated, but I don't see how in Yoda's case. In the newer series, Sidious comes through easily ragdolling and outright overpowering force users who can move ships with the force while laughing his ass off, which pretty much shows a large gap in power, so why is it hard to assume that Yoda, who is Sidious equal, can move much larger objects than his inferiors can?


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In terms of G-canon conflicts, newer content overrides older content. Unless there's something explicit which says the Force usage in the miniseries is legit (and somehow explains the holding back present elsewhere), I see no reason to entertain it as valid, consistent evidence.


If we toss out feats on account of something we didn't see on Geonosis, which is what Filoni was suggesting, then that would include many of the feats we see in Filoni's series and it's tie-in comics such as the ones I listed above. We didn't see Mace turning large numbers of droids to scrap with force pushes. Even if he did, no, he probably would not have soloed the entire army, but he could have potentially prevented a lot of casualties on his side.

As far as I know, there isn't anything explicit which says Windu was holding back his powers during the battle on Geonosis. But, he was using the force pretty recklessly during his battle on Dantooine in the miniseries, which is something he wouldn't do with other jedi surrounding him. While you can question why not just send Mace Windu instead of 200 other jedi in the first place, I can respond to that and say, maybe they weren't intending to do battle, but was hoping Dooku would cower before a large number of force users. In any case, all I'm saying is, if we dismiss it solely on account of it not happening in the movies, then the same standard should apply with his feats in the newer series as well, along with Maul's feats, unless we are to assume Maul's TK is more far more potent than Mace's which I highly doubt.

My problem is how the PT fans get called out for being biased, but we're not the ones who dismiss feats like Revan's meteor shower just because he didn't do anything remotely comparable in his novel. As far as I know, most of us accept it as canon, despite the fact that game mechanics are usually exaggerated.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku getting ambushed by 30 pirates. That's in the commentary to that episode.


Which was just stupid and very bad writing. Hell, Krell floors about 20 clones of the 501st (which I assume are more threatening than 30 drunken pirates) who had him surrounded at gun point, with Krell not having his sabers out yet.

Dooku should have been able to down them with TK, and then proceed to finish them with lightning, considering Dooku's other feats.

I get that Filoni wanted to show that force users are not invincible, but he could have went about that in another way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which was just stupid and very bad writing. Hell, Krell floors about 20 clones of the 501st (which I assume are more threatening than 30 drunken pirates) who had him surrounded at gun point, with Krell not having his sabers out yet.

Dooku should have been able to down them with TK, and then proceed to finish them with lightning, considering Dooku's other feats.

I get that Filoni wanted to show that force users are not invincible, but he could have went about that in another way. '

Yeah he wants to show force users aren't invincible...but then he has Krell pwning the 501st, and having them need to use trickery to capture him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which was just stupid and very bad writing. Hell, Krell floors about 20 clones of the 501st (which I assume are more threatening than 30 drunken pirates) who had him surrounded at gun point, with Krell not having his sabers out yet.



I'm guessing the difference is that Krell had his sabers on him whilst Dooku didn't. Plus the multiple Sabers may have helped in deflecting blasts from all sides simultaneously?

Also I think the pirates are more lethal then you give them credit for considering Hondo did fight Anakin Skywalker one on one in Season 1. Sure Skywalker was probably holding back loads, but still I doubt any drunk noob could manage that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also I think the pirates are more lethal then you give them credit for considering Hondo did fight Anakin Skywalker one on one in Season 1. Sure Skywalker was probably holding back loads, but still I doubt any drunk noob could manage that.

Is that supposed to make it less stupid and badly written?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm guessing the difference is that Krell had his sabers on him whilst Dooku didn't. Plus the multiple Sabers may have helped in deflecting blasts from all sides simultaneously?


Yeah, I don't think so. Dooku is supposed to be one of the top 3 force masters in the galaxy. And Krell had no issues flooring all the troopers who came to arrest him.

Tbf, the troopers just got back up again and started shooting. What was Dooku gonna do after flooring them?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tbf, the troopers just got back up again and started shooting. What was Dooku gonna do after flooring them?

Force lightning? Force choke?

On all 30 of them? Sure, I think he might be able to kill them all and dodge enough blaster bolts to pull it off, but its an unnecessary risk.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which, as I said, has Maul and Savage flooring armies and Mace reducing a large group of destroyer droids to scrap with a mere force push.





Some of it is exaggerated, but I don't see how in Yoda's case. In the newer series, Sidious comes through easily ragdolling and outright overpowering force users who can move ships with the force while laughing his ass off, which pretty much shows a large gap in power, so why is it hard to assume that Yoda, who is Sidious equal, can move much larger objects than his inferiors can?





If we toss out feats on account of something we didn't see on Geonosis, which is what Filoni was suggesting, then that would include many of the feats we see in Filoni's series and it's tie-in comics such as the ones I listed above. We didn't see Mace turning large numbers of droids to scrap with force pushes. Even if he did, no, he probably would not have soloed the entire army, but he could have potentially prevented a lot of casualties on his side.

As far as I know, there isn't anything explicit which says Windu was holding back his powers during the battle on Geonosis. But, he was using the force pretty recklessly during his battle on Dantooine in the miniseries, which is something he wouldn't do with other jedi surrounding him. While you can question why not just send Mace Windu instead of 200 other jedi in the first place, I can respond to that and say, maybe they weren't intending to do battle, but was hoping Dooku would cower before a large number of force users. In any case, all I'm saying is, if we dismiss it solely on account of it not happening in the movies, then the same standard should apply with his feats in the newer series as well, along with Maul's feats, unless we are to assume Maul's TK is more far more potent than Mace's which I highly doubt.

My problem is how the PT fans get called out for being biased, but we're not the ones who dismiss feats like Revan's meteor shower just because he didn't do anything remotely comparable in his novel. As far as I know, most of us accept it as canon, despite the fact that game mechanics are usually exaggerated.

I think you're confusing something here: it's not an issue of power creep or powers as the plot demands; it's an issue of inconsistent usage before and after.

Revan chucking meteors is an example of power creep and powers as the plot demands. It's not game mechanics, because no such ability exists for the player to control or deviate from; it's a scripted event using the game's engine (which is used to make all cutscenes in the entire game). The fact that it happens regardless of player input, player choice, or random circumstance dictates that it is a canon path to all potential interpretations of the game.

Even then, this is not a major issue of inconsistency, because the scale is not grossly exaggerated compared to other media, and there is not a complete lack of the same powers being used chronologically later in the series by the same character.

Yoda, meanwhile, can destroy entire armada's of small ships with a wave of his hand in the Mini series, something he cannot seemingly replicate before and after in canon. Given that holding back against droids is not something the Jedi are known for (he even kills Clone troopers near the Jedi temple with abandon), it makes zero sense for Yoda to not use these immense TK powers in other situations.

To simply assume he can because of a blatantly exaggerated piece of media that has feats not done anywhere else is simply confirmation bias, not objectivity. You cannot reconcile the mini feats with anything before and after without explicit plot information which details how and or at least why the Force is suddenly larger and more powerful in scope when used by the same characters.

And we all know you can't reconcile that, so clinging to the series as proof is as fallacious as saying Ventress can dance through a rainstorm without getting wet (The Cestus Deception) when she's never shown having such ability elsewhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
On all 30 of them? Sure, I think he might be able to kill them all and dodge enough blaster bolts to pull it off, but its an unnecessary risk.

I suppose...but I am pretty sure he could make an escape ala Force repulse and force speed.

Force adepts can generally get out of most situations with clever Force use. But they don't because plot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Force adepts can generally get out of most situations with clever Force use. But they don't because plot.

So you are for Force users when I am not arguing in their favor.

I see how it is, Neph.

What I'm saying is that you can always go 'if they just used the Force like this then they could win!' Dooku could also hulk jump out of there after flooring them. But its not that easy and Force users just aren't as good at using the Force in creative, strategic ways as some people think they are.

Which seems pretty stupid when you consider that Obi-Wan can use the Force to open a door, or Qui-Gon can use it to change a dice roll in midair or shut off robots with a gesture.

I think the best conclusion is the simplest one: that despite Jedi having lifelong training in the Force, writers are just inconsistent morons.

Obi-Wan says in The Jedi Path that its actually really hard to use the Force in combat. When they're standing still and have full concentration its probably simple. Not so much when you're trying to keep track of multiple opponents, focus on your precog, amp your speed and reflexes, run around alot and then try to concentrate enough to move something with your mind.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan says in The Jedi Path that its actually really hard to use the Force in combat. When they're standing still and have full concentration its probably simple. Not so much when you're trying to keep track of multiple opponents, focus on your precog, amp your speed and reflexes, run around alot and then try to concentrate enough to move something with your mind.

The difference is Tyranus has twice the force power and experience than Kenobi.

And I said that Tyranus might well be able to pull off taking out 30 combatants with just the Force. But it isn't 'lol Force pwn all the things'.

I brought up Kenobi to point out that its not simple to use the Force mid-combat, so most of the time they're not going to be doing complex and creative Force strategies. Especially with no lightsaber in Dooku's case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan says in The Jedi Path that its actually really hard to use the Force in combat. When they're standing still and have full concentration its probably simple. Not so much when you're trying to keep track of multiple opponents, focus on your precog, amp your speed and reflexes, run around alot and then try to concentrate enough to move something with your mind.

In the case of fighting Force users, this makes sense, because they have similar powers. Against muggles, this makes no sense. You can outfight and outmaneuever droids and robots and shit with the Force, and untrained noobies like Luke and Ani can do improbable piloting/aiming skills, but lifelong Jedi monks can't overpower muggle group/badass XYZ because it's "really hard".

Just admit that SW writers are morons. You'll be happier for it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I said that Tyranus might well be able to pull off taking out 30 combatants with just the Force. But it isn't 'lol Force pwn all the things'.

I brought up Kenobi to point out that its not simple to use the Force mid-combat, so most of the time they're not going to be doing complex and creative Force strategies. Especially with no lightsaber in Dooku's case.

See that'd be all fine and good if it weren't for the fact that all 30 of them were stationary and yapping (which should have given the Count time to focus/ formulate a strat)

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Against muggles, this makes no sense. You can outfight and outmaneuever droids and robots and shit with the Force,

That they can doesn't mean its not hard to do whilst getting shot at.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and untrained noobies like Luke and Ani can do improbable piloting/aiming skills,

Lol, Skywalkers. And Bane could headshot 5 guys a mile away in under a second or two while blinded. Powerful untrained Force users just do that shit.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
but lifelong Jedi monks can't overpower muggle group/badass XYZ because it's "really hard".

"Its hard to use the Force as a weapon while using the lightsaber as one too." - Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The Force is like a third arm thats harder to use. Its difficult trying to move 3 arms at once while under pressure of gunfire, paying attention to extra-sensory preceptions, keeping track of groups of people all at once, trying not to stand still and amping yourself with the Force.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
See that'd be all fine and good if it weren't for the fact that all 30 of them were stationary and yapping (which should have given the Count time to focus/ formulate a strat)

As I said, plot. Besides, why risk it when he could wait for a better opportunity.

You can't admit it, can you?

I've already said that its partially a plot thing. Rarely in any media does a character operate at peak efficiency and use their powers to deal with every situation like a baws. Because then there wouldn't be a story.

Those writers are stupid though. Dooku should have used his aneurism powers from Dark Rendezvous to kill all the pirates in a second after force crushing their grenades and while levitating in front of the sun to hinder their eyesight. What a bunch of noobz.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those writers are stupid though. Dooku should have used his aneurism powers from Dark Rendezvous to kill all the pirates in a second after force crushing their grenades and while levitating in front of the sun to hinder their eyesight. What a bunch of noobz.



Now Barriss owns all of the Muggle Bounty Hunters.

I'm gonna make that respect thread one day. Then you'll see. Doooouche.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm gonna make that respect thread one day. Then you'll see. Doooouche.

http://i.imgur.com/ZpMiFnT.gif

To be fair, Filoni did say Dooku would have taken out most of the pirates (even without his Saber) but chances are that one of them would have hit him.

You have to remember Jango Fett and Pre-Viszla can go toe to toe with Kenobi and Maul one on one. So Dooku surrendering to 30 pirates who have ambushed and surrounded him when he doesn't even have his Sabers is really not that bad or that inconsistent.

Mace also lost to a group of unarmed, regular people in the Clone Wars Adventures.

And Yoda one time got trapped in a droid.

/lowball.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I think you're confusing something here: it's not an issue of power creep or powers as the plot demands; it's an issue of inconsistent usage before and after.

Revan chucking meteors is an example of power creep and powers as the plot demands. It's not game mechanics, because no such ability exists for the player to control or deviate from; it's a scripted event using the game's engine (which is used to make all cutscenes in the entire game). The fact that it happens regardless of player input, player choice, or random circumstance dictates that it is a canon path to all potential interpretations of the game.

Even then, this is not a major issue of inconsistency, because the scale is not grossly exaggerated compared to other media, and there is not a complete lack of the same powers being used chronologically later in the series by the same character.

Yoda, meanwhile, can destroy entire armada's of small ships with a wave of his hand in the Mini series, something he cannot seemingly replicate before and after in canon. Given that holding back against droids is not something the Jedi are known for (he even kills Clone troopers near the Jedi temple with abandon), it makes zero sense for Yoda to not use these immense TK powers in other situations.

To simply assume he can because of a blatantly exaggerated piece of media that has feats not done anywhere else is simply confirmation bias, not objectivity. You cannot reconcile the mini feats with anything before and after without explicit plot information which details how and or at least why the Force is suddenly larger and more powerful in scope when used by the same characters.

And we all know you can't reconcile that, so clinging to the series as proof is as fallacious as saying Ventress can dance through a rainstorm without getting wet (The Cestus Deception) when she's never shown having such ability elsewhere.

The problem is, though, that Revan's meteor-chucking feat qualifies as much as Yoda's ability to smash Separatist drop ships. As was pointed out, it's inconsistent with his other feats.

Trying to confine this to the movies is also an example of confirmation bias.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is, though, that Revan's meteor-chucking feat qualifies as much as Yoda's ability to smash Separatist drop ships. As was pointed out, it's inconsistent with his other feats.

Reread what I said. The chief issue isn't Yoda being that strong; it's the inconsistency before and after which is the huge issue.

It's possible to reconcile a power creep, as I stated. TOR is a showcase of power creep over KotOR, which in turn was a power creep over the PT.

However, Yoda's feat is not consistent with a power creep; it's instead isolated within a piece of media that has content both before and after which grossly contradict it.



Yoda, with concentration, can seal off a vacuum of space or redirect an orbital missile strike. Actually, the latter was, IIRC, while he was dueling Dark Side nexus Dooku. But the idea that he can do X or defeat X because in the Mini Series he played galactic puppetmaster with some drop ships is a ridiculous argument, chiefly because the medium in quest calls into question gross incompetence on behalf of Jedi and Yoda elsewhere.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I think you're confusing something here: it's not an issue of power creep or powers as the plot demands; it's an issue of inconsistent usage before and after.


Again, in Yoda's case, I don't see how it's inconsistent when we see far inferior force users consistently use the force on a far larger level than Yoda did in the movies (except for shoving Sidious over his desk).


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Revan chucking meteors is an example of power creep and powers as the plot demands. It's not game mechanics, because no such ability exists for the player to control or deviate from; it's a scripted event using the game's engine (which is used to make all cutscenes in the entire game). The fact that it happens regardless of player input, player choice, or random circumstance dictates that it is a canon path to all potential interpretations of the game.


Game mechanics wasn't the word I was looking for. But in any case, I'm not arguing that it should be considered non-canon, just that we don't see him do anything like that elsewhere, as far as I know.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even then, this is not a major issue of inconsistency, because the scale is not grossly exaggerated compared to other media, and there is not a complete lack of the same powers being used chronologically later in the series by the same character.


Yoda's force usage is not grossly exaggerated when we consider the feats of his inferiors in the newer series.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda, meanwhile, can destroy entire armada's of small ships with a wave of his hand in the Mini series, something he cannot seemingly replicate before and after in canon. Given that holding back against droids is not something the Jedi are known for (he even kills Clone troopers near the Jedi temple with abandon), it makes zero sense for Yoda to not use these immense TK powers in other situations.

To simply assume he can because of a blatantly exaggerated piece of media that has feats not done anywhere else is simply confirmation bias, not objectivity. You cannot reconcile the mini feats with anything before and after without explicit plot information which details how and or at least why the Force is suddenly larger and more powerful in scope when used by the same characters.


It's like you ignored everything I said? I'm not saying we accept every single feat in the mini series just because they happened in them. That's not my argument, because, yes, some of it is exaggerated. I'm giving you a logical explanation as to why Yoda's feats in the mini series are not really exaggerated.

When was Yoda in a desperate situation where the plot demanded that he use the force heavily but was unable to? His and Kenobi's attempt to sneak their way to the jedi temple, was just that, an attempt to sneak their way through without the sith knowing of their presence. Using large amounts of force energy would have likely alerted Sidious of their presence. But of course you won't accept that explanation, but yet when it comes to characters like Kun who didn't kill with his all-powerful blasts when he was there to actually kill his opponents, you expected me to accept your explanation that Kun was just trolling them, which I did accept. Why is it hard to accept my logical explanation as to why Yoda's feats in the mini series shouldn't be feats that are above his level?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is, though, that Revan's meteor-chucking feat qualifies as much as Yoda's ability to smash Separatist drop ships. As was pointed out, it's inconsistent with his other feats.

Not really. This is the same Revan who beat Star Forge Malak multiple times in a row, b*tchslapped Nyriss into oblivion and went toe to toe with a dark side demi-god for a few rounds. Drew also told Legend that Revan was capable of blowing up a building with the Force if he were so inclined.

And he does it while holding off Cipher 9, The Champ and the future Darth Nox and Emperor's Wrath.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, in Yoda's case, I don't see how it's inconsistent when we see far inferior force users consistently use the force on a far larger level than Yoda did in the movies (except for shoving Sidious over his desk).

In the mini series or elsewhere?



See what Neph posted.



Again, are we talking about the Mini Series circa 2003?



So how then do you objectively tell which aren't exaggerated?



Stopping Dooku from smashing Anakin and Obi-Wan. Geonosis in general. Any time a pod was chucked at him. Hell, he has to concentrate to levitate an X-Wing out of a swamp in ESB, but can ragdoll dropships like nothing?



A surprisingly unsupported assumption. What do you think Yoda was using to fuel his Ataru offensive? Caffeine?



Kun doesn't need his amulets to kill, so this is a red herring.



Because it's not a logical explanation. There's no reason why I should accept any or all of the mini series feats, given the gross level of inconsistency.

No, S66 has a very valid point. As usual, you're only interested in reducing the film characters to their least impressive incarnations and have no interest in adopting the same standard for EU characters.

Would you like for me to go through all the times EU Character X should have done Y and Z to defeat his or her opponent and failed to do so?

What you continually fail to grasp is that this is a game that can be used against the EU as much as against the films.

You should accept that or stop playing altogether. Anything else is just flagrant hypocrisy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, S66 has a very valid point.

Not really. The mini series is questionably canon and its depictions are not consistent with G-canon media before and after. As for EU, I brought up two impressive feats in direct response to you, and did not at any point say "EU feats are off of the table". My specific issue was with the idea of the Mini series feats being admissable.



No. That's a strawman.

Calm down.



That's not relevant and you know it.



That's not my argument either. Read slower.



http://lolsnaps.com/upload_pic/CalmDownWoman-58595.jpg

Unless you have a logical argument as to why everyone in Samurai Jack Mini Series can force push legions and spin ships in orbit and then suddenly lose that ability after the series, you don't have a position in this debate. So slow your roll and stop the knee-jerk reaction.

Not angry, bro. Just giving you some much needed str8-tlk. excellent

As I told you, if we're going to dismiss the mini-series feats by virtue of their incompatibility with how certain characters are depicted in other mediums or in other sources, we're going to do that... for everyone. (This includes the EU.)

As far as my position in this debate is concerned, you've had a history of running into threads, typing "LOL PT BIAS" (indeed, in all caps), and generally doing the same thing I'm now doing to you.

This is another game that can be played and that works both ways. If you don't like it, stop playing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not angry, bro. Just giving you some much needed str8-tlk. excellent

Except that you aren't resolving the conflict at hand. You're simply throwing fuel on one side.



It's not just "they are depicted differently". Obviously there is differences in personality, the way they are described, drawn, etc. That is not in contention. The scale and ease of use of their Force powers, is however in contention.

Let's look at it in its simplest form:

- Force use in the CW Mini Series is drastically more impressive and more easily used than in the PT movies or novels prior, the CW series afterwards as well as subsequent PT related media.

Do you dispute this? Furthermore, can you find a logical reason to accept it as equal to other G-canon, given the issue?



1. You're being petty.

2. I'm debating in this thread, not merely slinging in comments and wading off. I have a valid point that needs to be addressed for consistency among arguments here. Choosing to belittle or ignore that point, or just be contradictory doesn't remove that validity.



http://allamericanblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Tu-Quoque.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In the mini series or elsewhere?


No, in the newer series. Maul doesn't even exist in the mini series.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
See what Neph posted.


Ok, and Yoda flings Sidious across a room and redirects his lightning. I don't see how redirecting Nyriss's lightning helps your case about Revan anymore than Yoda's feats against Sidious help mine.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, are we talking about the Mini Series circa 2003?


Nope, the newer ones.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So how then do you objectively tell which aren't exaggerated?


As I said, Yoda's inferiors have displayed ridiculous force feats in Filoni's series, which supposedly aren't exaggerated uses of the force. When we see Sidious come through and treat these characters like mere bugs in these very same series, then why is it hard to assume that Yoda, with concentration, can't stop small vehicles mid-flight, causing other vehicles to crash into them, or move around much larger objects with the force than force users like Maul?



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Stopping Dooku from smashing Anakin and Obi-Wan.


I thought he did? You mean to tell me that's not Anakin and Kenobi we see in ROTS?


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Geonosis in general.


Power creep; this happened years before the events of the mini series. lol

Serioulsy, though, Yoda wasn't there during most of the battle in the arena, and when he did arrive, he stayed onboard the vehicle he was on. I can't tell you why. I'm only arguing what Yoda is capable of doing.

Just like you wouldn't be able to explain why Vitiate, a sith lord who dominated his era for centuries, would walk into a lightsaber. Are we to argue Vitiate's incompetence and say someone like Kenobi can take him, because all he has to do is stand there, block lightning, and wait for Vitiate to walk into his saber.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Any time a pod was chucked at him.


That could have been because of the speed in which Sidious was throwing them.

I know you're going to post the video and count the seconds, but if the pods were truly moving at the speed as they were shown to us, then Yoda isn't faster than Obi Wan, who has casually evaded blaster bolts from Jango in AOTC.

This is the topic that I don't like to debate with you in: the speed of how things are shown to use onscreen. If we go by how it is shown to us, then jedi are not really warriors with force enhanced speed or precognition, they're just stunt men and old men swinging laser swords around, because that's what we see.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hell, he has to concentrate to levitate an X-Wing out of a swamp in ESB, but can ragdoll dropships like nothing?


He was concentrating in the mini series as well. If moving an X-wing was truly the pinnacle of his power, then he should have been easily snuffed out by Sidious, or maybe Sidious was just trolling him?

What are you arguing exactly? That we limit Yoda's feats to the movies? Then we'd have to toss out all of the feats of his inferiors in TCW.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kun doesn't need his amulets to kill, so this is a red herring.


But when he used it on a force user who he planned on killing, it didn't kill her.

Yoda doesn't need TK to kill either. His lightsaber is sufficient. Even in the mini series, he relied on his lightsaber in close combat more than he did the force.

It's not a red herring, it's calling you out on double standards.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Because it's not a logical explanation. There's no reason why I should accept any or all of the mini series feats, given the gross level of inconsistency.


Maul can hurl star ships and ragdoll armies. Why is it hard to assume that Yoda can out perform Maul by miles?

Oi. Your post gives me a headache.

The whole movie v. EU gangpolitics of this place contributes though as well.

On one hand you have people who will accept evidence if and only if it champions the movie characters, who include their favorites among their number, and then you have a much smaller EU sect which does the same thing, and you have an even smaller amount of people who straddle the fence by invariably get pegged by one side or the other.

I wasn't even talking about Maul. How the hell is Nyriss' lightning comparable to Sids' lightning in RotS? Since when can Maul 'hurl star ships and ragdoll armies'? Is it too much to ask that you be more specific? Why can I not count the seconds in G-canon material? Why do I have to assume that they are faster than what I can see on screen, and assume that Yoda can do whatever, but when an EU character comes into conflict with a movie character, they invariably have to be much weaker than we are led to believe, and their feats are comparable at best, much much weaker at worst, etc?

And then I get accused of double standards? Ridiculous.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Since when can Maul 'hurl star ships and ragdoll armies'? Is it too much to ask that you be more specific?


The starship feat is here @ 4:22-4:25:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqEtXVh8UOo


And for ragdolling armies I think he's referring to Opress's feat here @ 0:56-0:58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g

"I wasn't even talking about Maul."

This tells me you weren't following my arguments, but continued to argue anyway.

And what DP posted, though there is a tie-in comic where Maul and Savage force push an army off a cliff, similar to way Yoda and Mace did to large groups of droids in the mini series. I'll get the scan later, and if I don't then remind me. BTW, this reminds me of the time when I asked someone to be more specific regarding Bane's feats, in which I believe you lectured me on being too lazy for not reading all of his books.

I'm going to have to side with Yoda and Windu on here. Essentially Windu and the Hero must resort to dueling only while Yoda and Barsen'thor must resort to force attacks only. I believe Windu to be the superior duelist to the Hero, while Yoda is the superior force wielder between him and Barsen'thor.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Yoda, with concentration, can seal off a vacuum of space or redirect an orbital missile strike. Actually, the latter was, IIRC, while he was dueling Dark Side nexus Dooku.

Not quite. Yoda redirected that missile after Dooku had broke off the duel and fled. In fact he launched the missile specifically so that he could escape while Yoda was busy dealing with it.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not quite. Yoda redirected that missile after Dooku had broke off the duel and fled. In fact he launched the missile specifically so that he could escape while Yoda was busy dealing with it.
Seems to be Dooku's MO when he's overmatched doesn't it?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Seems to be Dooku's MO when he's overmatched doesn't it?

It certainly does.

I'll give him credit for having enough sense to have a back-up plan ready though.

So, we have DP's post, which has a video of Maul force pulling a star ship from a cliff, and one of Savage downing several battle droids plus Kenobi and Skywalker with a force wave. These feats are in Filoni's newer series, which, according to Filoni, doesn't depict exaggerated uses of the force. Also, in one of the comic tie-ins we have Maul and Savage do this:


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/39001/2567425-force_push.jpg


Then we have Sidious come along and easily ragdoll and overpower these two, both simultaneously and individually, which suggests Sidious is way beyond their level. So I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that Yoda, who is Sidious' equal, is capable of doing this:

3TNUH_4tLN8

(Skip to 9:31)


It's not like Yoda crushed entire star fleets.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah the only thing that's fanon are your assertions about Vitiate.
The matter of "most powerful" is subjective aspect of STAR WARS.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And yet when the Children of the Emperor fell his power didn't magically increase.
I doubt that SWTOR would demonstrate minute changes to Vitiate with respect to how his power reach is affected by developments of his enemies.

Besides, Vitiate was preoccupied with his galaxy-busting plan during this time.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
All I see is a bunch of assertions. No proof.
I advice you to play SWTOR.

Yoda/Mace take this.
Personally, I put Hero in between the likes of Caedus and Anakin, so he should be able to take Mace in a lengthy duel. However, Yoda outclasses Barsenthor, and will then go on to beat Tython.

Anyone who puts Hero on Yoda level *motions to Neph* is crazy.