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Darth Sion a unstoppable force of power and ferocity, who learned how to survive the most painful of attacks by calling on his anger pain and hatred, a powerful and aggressive Sith lord Sion showed his power when he took on the Jedi Exile on Korriban and later on Malachor where the exile would of lost had she not used Dun Moch and eroded his will
Abilities. there really isn't much on sion - force wise anyways - besides his immortality technique and some knowledge of dark healing which isn't much.
Form.Given the fact that he was able to fight Meetra Surik on even grounds(despite her being able to learn her opponents style by simply observing them) and his surviving not only the downfall of Exar Kun's empire but also Revans empire(with latter's empire going on to kill eachother, the fact that he survived Korriban while impressive is to be expected) given his aggressive personality and many years of experienced( a la Darth bane) I believe we can safely assume Sion had Some if not a lot of knowledge in the Juyo form and knew Makashi to some extent(which was quite common during his era)

Meetra Surik. a powerful jedi whose effort helped bring back the jedi order and the republic from the brink of extinction, as a young jedi she followed her best friend Revan's(whom she considered her brother)path and fought along side him on various occasions, her love and loyalty to Revan where so strong that he when ordered that the Mass Shadow generator be activated she did so without question, after the destruction of malachor the echo was so strong that she had to cut her self of from the force in order to survive, she would later go on to defeat the Sith Triumvirate and save various planets from the sith. after the defeat of Darth Traya, she later traveled to the unknown regions in order to rescue revan and defeat the sith emperor Vitiate who held him captive.
Abilities. A powerful jedi master who during her return from exile would go on to learn various techniques from both the gray jedi Kreia and her companions, such techniques include- Battle precognition, Two different forms of meditations from both Mical(the disciple) and her droid T3-M4, and how to become slightly resistant of force powers from Atton rand. as a force user Meetra was highly talented and many force powers including but not limited to, Force whirlwind, Force Valor, Force Resistance, Battle meditation and even rare techniques like Breath Control and Beast Trick.
Form. Meetra was highly proficient in Shii-Cho, Makashi and Soresu and was able to show her lightsaber prowess when she defeated Darth Sion, Darth Nihilius, Atris(a Juyo user) and Darth traya who I would assume preferred Niman. despite all that however, Meetra had a special gift that allowed her to learn her opponents form by simply observing them and later applying in the form like an expert

Count Dooku. a powerful jedi master turned Sith Lord who became the leader of Separatist droid army after he joined the dark lord Sidious, as the dark lord Tyranus he not only demonstrated his light-saber prowess when he took on Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker, Yoda and various other jedi masters and apprentices but also his brilliant role as a tactician for the Separatist army.
Abilities. Dooku was highly proficient at telekinesis often times used it as means of flight, he also had knowledge of Force Choke and was highly skilled in Force Lighting having demonstrated his skill in it various times, he also knew the rare Beast Trick technique and was even able to bend the will of a krayt dragon
Form. While Dooku was a Master of Makashi, by the end of his career as a jedi there was little he didn't about the lightsaber froms(the only form he didn't know was dun moch) and even had enough know how of the forms to teach grievous all the form, despite that he heavily relied on Makashi which was only effective against jedi and while he was knowledgeable of all forms he never really mastered any other from besides Makashi.

Mace Windu. a powerful Jedi master second only to the grand-master Yoda, was a Jedi general that lead the republic to victory on many occasions(one time he alone took on an entire platoon of droids on dantooine?) and was able to fight Sidious on even ground(although he had to use vaapad to its fullest extent) before Anakin Skywalker turned to the dark side and killed him
Abilities Mace Windu was a powerful jedi who - thanks in no small part to his form Vaapad - was able to use the darkest powers of either the darkside and lightside his powers include, Force Wave, Force Grip, Force Crush, Force Speed and was highly proficient in telekinesis.
Form. Windu was a master of all seven forms and was counted among one of greatest duelist of his time, not only was he a great lightsaber duelist but he was also a great martial artist(as demonstrated on dantooine) but he also created his own Lightsaber form which was like juyo but with a few exceptions, to learn the form he created - Vaapad - the learner had willingly embrace the dark-side(but not fall) and the thrill of battle, his form was so near the dark side, that the only people he taught it to eventually fell to the dark side.
Four of the greatest Jedi and Sith fighting each-other at their peek of power. who would win? and why would they win?

Sion dies because No Limits fallacies and then Meetra dies somehow, because Mace.

Holy Mega-OP, Batman!!!

Anyway, Team Blackie wins.

Originally posted by Galan007
Holy Mega-OP, Batman!!!

Anyway, Team Blackie wins.

Excuse me?

Anyway Dooku or Windu would solo this imo.

Blackie is the "PC" term for a negro. Mace happens to be a negro. ie. Team Blackie/negro/Mace wins.


http://teenagenetwork.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/dumb-and-dumber-limo.gif

Originally posted by Galan007
Blackie is the "PC" term for a negro. Mace happens to be a negro. ie. Team Blackie/negro/Mace wins.




http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m27o4fUlQF1rnwjh6o1_250.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anyway Dooku or Windu would solo this

Lol. EU gets no respect.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m27o4fUlQF1rnwjh6o1_250.gif http://i.imgur.com/pcFNpu8.gif

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Lol. EU gets no respect.

Lol more like Dooku gets no respect. Easily one of the most underestimated people on these boards.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol more like Dooku gets no respect. Easily one of the most underestimated people on these boards.
If I can kinda go off topic for little, I can honestly say I thought it was bullshit that Dooku was killed by Anakin.
any way I don't think Team PT wins at all, atleast not without trouble, remember Meetra Surik can learn a form by simply observing her opponent so I highly doubt Mace just 'Stomps' Meetra, and while Dooku may be an incredible duelist and a master of Makashi he didn't stand against Anakin's Djem So when he gave in to his rage how do you think he'd fair against Sion's more aggressive Juyo not to mention Sion is a ferocious, aggressive and a powerful lightsaber combatant, im not saying team EU 'stomps' them im just stating a few thing to make the debate a bit fair

Dooku and Windu are superior duelists to either of their opponents. With this in mind I'm very interested to see how Windu's shatterpoint would affect Sion's ability to hold his body together. I say Windu and Dooku take this one.

I never claimed Shatterpoint as an instant win. What I'm saying is that Windu may be able to use it as a finishing move to ensure Sion doesn't get back up.

For once I agree...it won't be an easy stump for team 1...hmmm...betrayl I feel...
Sion vs Mace
Dooku vs Meetra

Meetra is a great Jedi Master....she takes Dooku in either Sabers or the Force....
She was also caught off guard by Scourge.If Sion catches her off guard,
then its a Triple threat...my bad handicap match 2 on 1.....

Shatter point won't win everytime....just show him the spot to hit and London bridge comes
tumbling down....like his will...or his faith in the darkside....what's the word I'm looking for...
Dun Moch. It can backfire on the user...Dooku and Vader were victims of this back fire ...

In another situation where they take out Sion,Meetra takes out Dooku instead of Mace...
(attachment)thing....friendship and all that imo...then Mace is left to fight Meetra.
Juyo was complete back then....

It was rumored to have been created by the time of the first Jedi purge....
Meetra might take this,imo........

As I mentioned on my Interesting Fighting Styles thread, I don't think Juyo was incomplete in terms of move set and combat performance, but rather incomplete in the sense that Jedi couldn't manage it that well without being drawn to the dark side. In any case, Windu essentially perfected and completed form VII by creating Vaapad. I also don't think Juyo's incompletion was a result of lost information, but rather underdevelopment considering how it didn't fit in very well with Jedi philosophy.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
As I mentioned on my Interesting Fighting Styles thread, I don't think Juyo was incomplete in terms of move set and combat performance, but rather incomplete in the sense that Jedi couldn't manage it that well without being drawn to the dark side. In any case, Windu essentially perfected and completed form VII by creating Vaapad. I also don't think Juyo's incompletion was a result of lost information, but rather underdevelopment considering how it didn't fit in very well with Jedi philosophy.
While I respect your opinion on Juyo I highly disagree with it no offense I just find it hard to believe that a light-saber form would be underdeveloped in a age where lightsaber duels were quite common. however I do agree with you on the Jedi not being able to use Juyo properly due to them having to control themselves which I believe holds them back from achieving Juyo's true potential, however if you are referring to Meetra not being able to use Juyo properly, I would have to disagree, for two reasons, #1. Meetra(The Exile) is by no means a 'Jedi'' or a 'Sith' atleast not any more, remember during her exile she had forsaken all of the Jedi order's tenets accept for one, No attachments, which means she isn't bound by rules of the order.
#2. During the Great Jedi purge she was hunted by the Sith who showed her no mercy, I believe in a time where your literally being hunted like a deer, you use every bit of knowledge/Techniques at your disposal - not matter how dark-side it may be - in order to survive.

Agreed...Jedaii maybe? Xesh would be a perfect practitioner...I often wondered if it would fit in with the Jedaii philosophy...Revanites too...and Revan.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Agreed...Jedaii maybe? Xesh would be a perfect practitioner...I often wondered if it would fit in with the Jedaii philosophy...Revanites too...and Revan.
Revan understood that in order to fight the dark side you needed to understand it, even his holocrons states that he knew ancient sith rituals and techniques, so it could be possible that he knew Juyo

I'm just saying any incompletion in Juyo has not shown itself to be a hindrance for Sith, and Windu's Vaapad is exempt from this rule.

Agree with you Emperor dmb and Fated Xtasy....good point I forget about Meetra being hunted and her being neither Jedi or Sith at the time. she was also without the Force for awhile,too.

Movie bias has become ridiculous. Sion soloes easily.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Movie bias has become ridiculous. Sion soloes easily.
The Exile struck Sion down multiple times, and the Revan novel shows her being outdueled by somebody who is primarily an inquisitor. Mace is primarily a lightsaber duelist, mastered all seven forms, and even created the form VII variant Vaapad that gives him an edge against dark siders. Dooku focused eighty years of training into learning how to wield Makashi, and is perhaps the greatest master of Makashi the galaxy has ever seen. Mace and Windu are both superior duelists to Sion. Sion's "immortality" is based on him holding his body together through pain and the force. If something can effectively disrupt that, he dies. Shatterpoint is something I believe could be used to land a killing blow on him, given the ridiculous amount of fractures in his body. Windu could therefore outduel Sion and kill him with shatterpoint while Dooku takes Meetra, or Windu could take Meetra while Dooku holds off/subdues Sion. I see no way for the KOTOR team to win, especially not one of them "soloing easily"

I agree. Maybe not that easily, but Team K2 is outmatched here.

Windu/Dooku SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree. Maybe not that easily, but Team K2 is outmatched here.

I don't see how not. Dooku is on the same level as Nyriss imo. And I really don't see Sion being above Scourge in anyway, nor will he be a better teammate. Dooku is an expert at dueling multiple people, I don't see why he alone wouldn't be enough to take down Sion and Meetra.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol more like Dooku gets no respect. Easily one of the most underestimated people on these boards.


I agree. However, among the PT fans, it's quite the opposite; we have people believing Dooku is a peer of Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I don't see how not. Dooku is on the same level as Nyriss imo.

Thats how I see it otherwise. In that I see it otherwise.

Can Dooku ash people with his lightning?

Can Vitiate?

Sure. T3, duh.

The text never was lightning. excellent

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I agree. However, among the PT fans, it's quite the opposite; we have people believing Dooku is a peer of Sidious.

The only ones who are peers of Sidious are Vitiate, Plagueis, Yoda and arguably the Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The only ones who are peers of Sidious are Vitiate, Plagueis, Yoda and arguably the Hero of Tython.

mmm

Lord Stark or even DP should make a respect thread for Dooku. He has tons of impressive feats. Lightning powerful enough to cause huge explosions, rip apart metal tanks which are connected to metal platforms (TCW video game), instantly kill a group of Kiffar warriors, over power Ventress and two other nightsisters at once, etc. His mastery and raw power in TK is such that he can dominate most of his era with it, effortlessly collapse cave ceilings, levitate several huge stone structures at once, collapse huge ship-sized cranes with a gesture. Plus he can outduel most force users of his era, even outdueling multiple opponents at once on more than one occasion, including a time when he was severely handicapped (drugged and blind during his fight with Ventress and two other nightsisters).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Can Vitiate?

His lightning is 'infinitely more powerful' than Nyriss', who can. So obviously yes.

Originally posted by Lord Stark


3. It is. This is what gets me about the EU wank. They think their mid tiers can match PT high-top tiers. Mace and Dooku are both likely the greatest masters of their respective forms in galactic history, Sion will get the Jango Fett treatment from Mace, and Dooku will ragdoll Meetra.
No offense, but that is a load of crap, while Mace and dooku may be master's of their forms, But Meetra is by no means pushover, the only reason Meetra was killed by scourge was because she let her - sisterly - love for Revan get in the way of what needed to be done. so please don't just say Dooku Ragdolls Meetra. oh I kinda forgot to mention that she was trained by Vima Sunrider, not really helpful here, but I just thought I should let you guys know. as for sion yeah i'll admit he's more of a lightsaber combatant who lets his rage fight for him while Dooku/Mace are far mor level-headed. not to mention he's not much of a force user so I do think either Mace or Dooku would beat him with some trouble.

Ventress also deserves a respect thread, but I don't think she has any hardcore fans here that are willing to put much effort in making one for her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His lightning is 'infinitely more powerful' than Nyriss', who can. So obviously yes.

Revan wasn't disintegrated.

What does Nyriss' ability to generate Force lightning more powerful than the Count's do to indicate her superiority over him as a duelist and as a general Force adept?

It doesn't. There are other reasons for that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan wasn't disintegrated.

Because he managed to partially diffuse the attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't. There are other reasons for that.

Feel free to list them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he managed to partially diffuse the attack.

Where?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan wasn't disintegrated.
Thanks to T3-M4.

---

SW: TCE notes Sion as being exceedingly difficult to kill:

Sion was exceedingly difficult to kill because his mastery over his own body lent him supernatural vitality.

In addition, Meetra is possibly an EXPERT duelist (evidence in SWTOR: Revan).

Meetra failed to perform against Nyriss but this doesn't indicates that she will fail to perform against virtually any notable figure from another era, her performance in Malachor V is nothing to sneeze at.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Feel free to list them.



Where?

Whooping Meetra and Scourge at the same time pretty much. Her victory was seriously impressive and not something I could see Dooku replicating. I would be hesitant to give her a nod over Dooku in general Force mastery, but eh, her superior lightning gives that to her.

In the book. Um, derp?

Nyriss also;

1. Tanked a blast of power (Force Push) from Lord Scourge which would have send a 'lesser' Force-user packing otherwise.

2. Send Lord Scourge crashing in to a nearby wall without even a gesture and not concentrating on him.

3. Multi-tasked with her usage of the Force (simultaneously maintained her Force-enhanced defenses while unleashing Force powers offensively against her opponents).

4. Noted to have command of Sith Sorcery.

Nyriss does comes across as superior to Count Dooku in all aspects barring technical proficiency in lightsaber dueling arts.

Here's my Nyriss respect thread if anyone wants to check it out: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/darth-nyriss-respect-thread/95301/

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
No offense, but that is a load of crap, while Mace and dooku may be master's of their forms, But Meetra is by no means pushover, the only reason Meetra was killed by scourge was because she let her - sisterly - love for Revan get in the way of what needed to be done. so please don't just say Dooku Ragdolls Meetra. oh I kinda forgot to mention that she was trained by Vima Sunrider, not really helpful here, but I just thought I should let you guys know. as for sion yeah i'll admit he's more of a lightsaber combatant who lets his rage fight for him while Dooku/Mace are far mor level-headed. not to mention he's not much of a force user so I do think either Mace or Dooku would beat him with some trouble.

Meetra isn't a pushover. But then again neither are CWs Kenobi and Skywalker, who couldn't take the Count down. Meetra has no better TK feats than Kenobi. Also Nyriss is undoubtedly a blademaster, but Dooku even as a Jedi was the fastest and one of the most skilled saber instructors.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nyriss also;

1. Tanked a blast of power (Force Push) from Lord Scourge which would have send a 'lesser' Force-user packing otherwise.

2. Send Lord Scourge crashing in to a nearby wall without even a gesture and not concentrating on him.

3. Multi-tasked with her usage of the Force (simultaneously maintained her Force-enhanced defenses while unleashing Force powers offensively against her opponents).

4. Noted to have command of Sith Sorcery.

Nyriss does comes across as superior to Count Dooku in all aspects barring technical proficiency in lightsaber dueling arts.

1. As if Dooku could not do the same.
2. Not sure if it was without a gesture, but Tyranus' casual one handed push required Kenobi and Skywalker combined to erect a shield and even then couldn't protect the mooks behind them and were still pushed back.
3. As if Dooku isn't the master of this.
4. Meh Tyranus and Sidious did a pretty cool ritual which almost killed Yoda.

"Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she met his charge was an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge and tossed him head-over-heals, sending him crashing into the wall."



Dooku really didn't have any knowledge on the ritual, Sidious did it all really, all Dooku did was let his hand get cut.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Meetra isn't a pushover. But then again neither are CWs Kenobi and Skywalker, who couldn't take the Count down. Meetra has no better TK feats than Kenobi. Also Nyriss is undoubtedly a blademaster, but Dooku even as a Jedi was the fastest and one of the most skilled saber instructors.

I never questioned Dooku's abilities as a Duelist, he is an expert, but Anakin and Obi-Wan were defeated on genenosia? because they were somewhat limited by their code, not to mention Anakin was still a Padawan at the time, during the battle above courasant Dooku's refined Makashi was bested by Anakin's more aggressive and ferocious Djem So(fueled by rage). Now imagine Meetra, who knew Makashi and Soresu(she also knew shii-cho but what padawan doesn't know it?) going up against Dooku who relied heavily on makashi, sure he may have more knowledge of the forms, but what good would that do against a jedi who knew the rare force power, Force enlightenment, power that could augment a jedi physical abilities(like yoda's force valor) in the end Dooku was beaten by Anakin's rage, what's to stop Sion from using his overwhelming rage and hatred to fuel his attacks?
It seriously piss's me off when people have a double standard(im not accusing you of this Lord Stark) on EU characters, they love to bring every little thing a Movie character did but if we do it for EU character's(e.g Revan or Bane) they get all riled up?
I'm sorry if I look like a KOTOR fanboy, but, I just feel like Both Revan and Meetra are always brushed off as if they were both gizka going up against a rancor(though, I do understand when I considering they both have some annoying Fanboys, who either think revan is some sorta force god or that he is way better than sidious in terms of force potential and lightsaber prowess)

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I never questioned Dooku's abilities as a Duelist, he is an expert, but Anakin and Obi-Wan were defeated on genenosia? because they were somewhat limited by their code, not to mention Anakin was still a Padawan at the time, during the battle above courasant Dooku's refined Makashi was bested by Anakin's more aggressive and ferocious Djem So(fueled by rage). Now imagine Meetra, who knew Makashi and Soresu(she also knew shii-cho but what padawan doesn't know it?) going up against Dooku who relied heavily on makashi, sure he may have more knowledge of the forms, but what good would that do against a jedi who knew the rare force power, Force enlightenment, power that could augment a jedi physical abilities(like yoda's force valor) in the end Dooku was beaten by Anakin's rage, what's to stop Sion from using his overwhelming rage and hatred to fuel his attacks?

I am not talking about that.
KfpDDSzdm4U

This is what I refer to.

If Darth Sion were in a different league than his feats indicate he still wouldn't be in the same league as the Anakin that defeated Tyranus.

Sion even been stated to be a terribly duelist. All he really has going for him is his immortality. And I'm sure shatterpoint + lightning can't take that down. This is coming from a hardcore KotOR.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sion even been stated to be a terribly duelist. All he really has going for him is his immortality. And I'm sure shatterpoint + lightning can't take that down. This is coming from a hardcore KotOR.



Anyone on team one can solo.

Where was Sion said to be a terrible duelist?

Pfft, bullshit. Firstly, Sion is a veteran of both Exar Kun and Revans wars. Secondly, he studied at Malachor, a treasure trove of Sith knowledge and was taught by Traya personally. You seriously think he knew nothing of lightsaber combat?

Kreia was just speaking metaphorically. Sion never learned the lessons she wanted to teach him. Not about lightsabers, about the Force and free will and shit.

Agreed. That's a pretty flawed interpretation of her words.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pfft, bullshit. Firstly, Sion is a veteran of both Exar Kun and Revans wars. Secondly, he studied at Malachor, a treasure trove of Sith knowledge and was taught by Traya personally. You seriously think he knew nothing of lightsaber combat?

Kreia was just speaking metaphorically. Sion never learned the lessons she wanted to teach him. Not about lightsabers, about the Force and free will and shit.
first off, sorry @Lord Stark I thought your were talking about when they fought on gennosia my bad, anyway yeah, agree with Nephthys, I mean you don't survive the fall of two empires(especially a sith empire) with-out fighting your way out, and then there's Kreia, when she said that he only knew pain, she didn't mean that he didn't know anything else, I mean how can someone who has lived through various wars not know nothing of lightsaber combat? or the force?

Considering that Sion could rise from otherwise fatal injuries and that he wasn't a significant part of said wars, it's not really that shocking that he survived.

I'd say Sion is something like Savage Opress in terms of raw saber combat, maybe a bit less.

It's interesting how much evidence is largely just absorbed and then IMO is still the case. This is because we have almost no objective benchmarks here.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'd say Sion is something like Savage Opress in terms of raw saber combat, maybe a bit less.

Honestly, as 'clumsy' as Savage is alleged to be, dude has held his own against some of the premiere duelists of his day: Anakin, Obi-Wan, Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, etc.

His technique is clearly nowhere near as refined, but dude has some serious natural talent.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's interesting how much evidence is largely just absorbed and then IMO is still the case. This is because we have almost no objective benchmarks here.

I mean it sucks but the KOTOR II cast got shafted in terms of their power level with the Revan novel. We can only roughly assume how powerful Sion is. I think the Exile is roughly around the level of Kenobi, and Sion is roughly the level of Savage.

Revan is likely above Tyranus in the force but firmly below him in Sabers (lol Niman would get utterly demolished by Makashi).

I personally rank them like so: Yoda/Sidious/Vitiate > Revan > Dooku/Mace/Nyriss > Obi-Wan

Don't ask me where to put Maul and Anakin.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honestly, as 'clumsy' as Savage is alleged to be, dude has held his own against some of the premiere duelists of his day: Anakin, Obi-Wan, Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, etc.

His technique is clearly nowhere near as refined, but dude has some serious natural talent.

Mostly because of the monstrous power Talzin gave him. And for how impressive he is, I don't get why Talzin isn't just churning out brutes like him. It didn't seem to be something she can't replicate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mostly because of the monstrous power Talzin gave him. And for how impressive he is, I don't get why Talzin isn't just churning out brutes like him. It didn't seem to be something she can't replicate.

Because plot and reasons, bro.

This is typical of Star Wars to leave such glaring questions unanswered. Especially since Talzin's ambitions are confirmed to be in direct opposition to the Jedi and the Sith, especially as of season 6.

Lame.

She's trying to take them down? Seriously? She isn't doing a very good job.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lame.

She's trying to take them down? Seriously? She isn't doing a very good job.

She leeches living Force energy from individuals in season 6 and, in conjunction with her own dark magicks, intends to become more powerful than any Jedi or Sith. Mace interrupts the ritual, they fight, she vanishes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I personally rank them like so: Yoda/Sidious/Vitiate > Revan > Dooku/Mace/Nyriss > Obi-Wan

Don't ask me where to put Maul and Anakin.


Tier 0: Top Tier
Yoda
Sidious
Vitiate
Nihilus

Tier 1: Low-Top Tier
HoT
Revan
Malgus

Tier 2: High Tier
Tyranus
Mace
Nyriss
Anakin


Tier 3:
Kreia
Kenobi
Maul


Tier 4:
Savage
Sion

Its becoming too hard to do tiers anymore imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its becoming too hard to do tiers anymore imo.

True, especially because I think that Revan is more powerful than Dooku, but in a straight fight Dooku would win. Why? Niman gets plowed by Makashi.

Even Exar Kun's Niman?

I tend to judge lightsaber fights by speed, strength, force power and technical skill as opposed to lightsaber form rock paper scissors. With exceptions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even Exar Kun's Niman?

I tend to judge lightsaber fights by speed, strength, force power and technical skill as opposed to lightsaber form rock paper scissors. With exceptions.

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force says it would be nigh impossible for a Niman user to defeat a Makashi practitioner. And its not like Exar Kun outclasses Dooku in raw bladework.

I don't take that seriously. If Sidious was using Niman against Dooku, do you think Sidious wouldn't win? Cuz I think he'd still beat Dooku's shit in.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't take that seriously. If Sidious was using Niman against Dooku, do you think Sidious wouldn't win? Cuz I think he'd still beat Dooku's shit in.

No I don't think Sidious would win.
What makes Sidious so ridiculously OP in saber combat is that he uses all 7 in conjunction, combined with his speed makes him utterly unpredictable. You have to be Yoda (who also has a mastery of the 7 forms) to truly counter him.

Neph, I don't take YOU seriously.

#burn

http://static.tumblr.com/7savgf4/3jNlruiig/01596_2.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No I don't think Sidious would win.
What makes Sidious so ridiculously OP in saber combat is that he uses all 7 in conjunction, combined with his speed makes him utterly unpredictable. You have to be Yoda (who also has a mastery of the 7 forms) to truly counter him.

Pfft, well you can think whatever you want I guess. What makes Sidious so OP is his ridiculous power, which gives him an edge in speed, stellar combat senses and reflexes and the strength to hold back Savage Opress with one hand. He could beat Dooku using any form imo. Even Luke's spazzed out Boo Radley with a baseball bat style.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, I don't take YOU seriously.

#burn

Originally posted by Nephthys
https://24.media.tumblr.com/05541b1764eddb0f28dc1b0bbfbd53df/tumblr_mjj844Jig01s809ido4_250.gif

oh snap!



Not true. If you give someone with Sidious' power and speed but no saber training he's going to get curb stomped in a raw saber match with someone like Dooku. Sidious is amazing because his mastery of the saber is unreal.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force says it would be nigh impossible for a Niman user to defeat a Makashi practitioner. And its not like Exar Kun outclasses Dooku in raw bladework.

Does it differentiate between scholarly watered down Niman and mastered Niman? The form was considered a master's form in the Old Republic era. Fast forward to the PT era, and it's changed to be a quick study so that bookworms can avoid spending too much time training.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Does it differentiate between scholarly watered down Niman and mastered Niman? The form was considered a master's form in the Old Republic era. Fast forward to the PT era, and it's changed to be a quick study so that bookworms can avoid spending too much time training.

No it doesn't. But Cin Draalig does state that mastery of this form can only be attained after 10 years. Niman is just naturally weak against Makashi because it doesn't incorporate it into its form at all.

Tell that to Vodo.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Tell that to Vodo.

Who lost primarily due to his arrogance in thinking a cane could withstand Kun's lightsaber. Both times he lost he lost because of the dumb cane being cut in half. Would have been way cooler if Vodo came out like
"Its been awhile since an opponent made me use this"-Whips out lightsaber.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not true. If you give someone with Sidious' power and speed but no saber training he's going to get curb stomped in a raw saber match with someone like Dooku. Sidious is amazing because his mastery of the saber is unreal.

I didn't say 'no saber training' I said any of the saber forms. But I do think its true that speed, strength, superior power and force senses trump skill any day. Skill is only useful if you actually have the opportunity to outduel your opponent. With Sidious' speed, Dooku will constantly be pushed to the edge just to block his attacks. With Sidious' strength, Dooku will be straining and pushed back further even if he blocks the attack. With Sidious' senses, he'll know every move Dooku is about to make and be able to cloud Dooku of similar knowledge. Superior power generally is better than superior skill in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Who lost primarily due to his arrogance in thinking a cane could withstand Kun's lightsaber. Both times he lost he lost because of the dumb cane being cut in half. Would have been way cooler if Vodo came out like
"Its been awhile since an opponent made me use this"-Whips out lightsaber.

Those weren't the only times Kun beat him, but certainly both times Kun overpowered Vodo. Given that Savage can rawr and knock the Count back, I'd wager Niman is not a handicap in Kun's case. Regarding Revan, he liberally uses the Force, so that off-sets his refinement weakness.

But they may be the only exceptions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say 'no saber training' I said any of the saber forms. But I do think its true that speed, strength, superior power and force senses trump skill any day. Skill is only useful if you actually have the opportunity to outduel your opponent. With Sidious' speed, Dooku will constantly be pushed to the edge just to block his attacks. With Sidious' strength, Dooku will be straining and pushed back further even if he blocks the attack. With Sidious' senses, he'll know every move Dooku is about to make and be able to cloud Dooku of similar knowledge. Superior power generally is better than superior skill in a lightsaber duel.

You act as though Dooku doesn't have monstrous strength. He broke Kenobi's ribs by just throwing him, he blocked Skywalker and Kenobi's sabers with one hand, he was able to saber lock with Yoda himself. I am pretty sure its outright stated in one source material that a superior swordsman will defeat a superior force user.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I am pretty sure its outright stated in one source material that a superior swordsman will defeat a superior force user.
Kas'im said as much, but on the other hand, Bane was beating him through sheer power.

Ignoring that Kun is more heavily muscled than even Anakin, he's able to buff his rage and and shows the ability to strong arm quite well. He palmed Sylvar and nearly killed her before being stopped by Vodo and held the chancellor aloft by holding the back of his head.

He's stronk.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You act as though Dooku doesn't have monstrous strength. He broke Kenobi's ribs by just throwing him, he blocked Skywalker and Kenobi's sabers with one hand, he was able to saber lock with Yoda himself. I am pretty sure its outright stated in one source material that a superior swordsman will defeat a superior force user.

No, I just remember Dooku getting tossed across a room by a single strike from the man who Sidious blocked with one hand. If Sidious wants to be, he can be stronger than Dooku pretty easily.

Kas'im says that a superior swordsman can beat a stronger force user. But he also says that the Force is the real key to victory in any engagement. Which as Intrepid pointed out, Bane proved when he was kicking his ass through raw power.

Anakin's prodigious strength comes not from his musculature, but his raw Force energy. Besides, it's not like Christensen was super buff anyway. He was very cut and well defined, but hardly hulking.

And his super strong robot hand.

That's his pimp hand, bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even Exar Kun's Niman?

I tend to judge lightsaber fights by speed, strength, force power and technical skill as opposed to lightsaber form rock paper scissors. With exceptions.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kas'im said as much, but on the other hand, Bane was beating him through sheer power.

Bane is also a master of Soresu and Juyo

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Those weren't the only times Kun beat him, but certainly both times Kun overpowered Vodo. Given that Savage can rawr and knock the Count back, I'd wager Niman is not a handicap in Kun's case. Regarding Revan, he liberally uses the Force, so that off-sets his refinement weakness.

But they may be the only exceptions.

When did Kun beat him when he had a lightsaber? I would disagree with that considering Dooku didn't anticipate Savage's strength. He's fine with raw power otherwise Anakin would have dominated him everytime they fought.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Bane is also a master of Soresu and Juyo

The text credits his edge to his superior power though.

1. Can we put an end to the argument that Sion getting repeatedly struck down by Meetra is a poor reflection of his skill?

He doesn't have the same need to defend himself as others do simply because he's not as vulnerable as they are. Not defending himself adequately would only be a poor reflection of his skills if he had the same defensive priorities as other Jedi/Sith, but he doesn't.

Plus, KotOR 2 Meetra is an entirely different animal to the delevelled one we see in Revan. Clearly Drew didn't have the respect for the KotOR 2 source material that he should have. But as per KotOR 2, Meetra has a far more impressive resume than Windu or Dooku.

And also, canonically Sion was in love with The Exile, so there's that as well.

2. Shatterpoint wouldn't have any physical advantage over Sion at all. Mace simply cannot do anything above and beyond "killing" Sion, and that is exactly what Sion cheats: death. Shatterppint would only work via a situation, which is simply unlikely to happen.

3. Mace and Dooku are really not that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Sion has achieved far greater heights than almost anyone, let alone these two, and Meetra's exploits in KotOR 2 was the stuff of legends. Team 1 is extremely outmatched here. It's only movie bias which would lead people to think otherwise.

She solos a Sith academy on Malachor V. Very impressive.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
1. Can we put an end to the argument that Sion getting repeatedly struck down by Meetra is a poor reflection of his skill?

Not really considering his only other feat is ambushing Lonna Vash.



A ridiculous notion considering it takes power for him to regen.



Not really because she defeated Nihilus while he was at his weakness, talked Sion into accepting death, and...Kriea doesn't really have the chops to suggest she's all that amazing.



I have brought this up before. I was countered; he stated multiple times he was willing to kill her because he loves her.



Yeah Sion hasn't survived getting his head chopped off so that doesn't really matter to me.



Wow. I won't even justify that with a response.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kriea doesn't really have the chops to suggest she's all that amazing.

She does.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis


3. Mace and Dooku are really not that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Sion has achieved far greater heights than almost anyone, let alone these two, and Meetra's exploits in KotOR 2 was the stuff of legends. Team 1 is extremely outmatched here. It's only movie bias which would lead people to think otherwise.

I wouldn't go that far Astor, I mean sure he's the only one to ever achieve that 'cheating death' ability, but to claim that Mace and Dooku aren't impressive is a pretty big claim, considering Mace was able to defeat Sidious while the other three jedi master died. then there's Dooku who was able to hold his own against yoda(for a while until he retreated) how can you say they're 'Not all that impressive'?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not really considering his only other feat is ambushing Lonna Vash.

This makes no sense brah.



1. First I've heard of this. Prove it.

2. Even if it takes power, the fact that he can regenerate would still mean that his defensive priorities would not be as great as they would otherwise be.



Yes she does. She's demonstrated far more power than either Dooku or Mace. Owning a trio of Jedi Council Members, and literally killing a dozen Sith Assassins by walking past them namely. Dooku Force owning one or 2 Jedi at a time, and having to set it up with lightsaber strikes usually is nowhere near as impressive.

As DarthAnt said she solod the Malachor V Academy, plus all the other shit she does in Kotor 2.



What he states =/= what he truly feels, even if he was lying to himself. You can't make a solid case that he wouldn't have held back slightly against her. And seeing as, as I said, he doesn't have the same defensive prioirites as others, basically the fight with Meetra proves nothing.



1. In which case Shatterpoint would hardly be effective as it's hardly a precice measure,

2. This is an unsupported assumption. Meetra felled him numerous times and was lead to believe that he was invincible, as did many others. Hard to argue that they wouldn't have tried something as obvious as chopping his head off.



Good thing if we look at the quality of your actual responses.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I wouldn't go that far Astor, I mean sure he's the only one to ever achieve that 'cheating death' ability, but to claim that Mace and Dooku aren't impressive is a pretty big claim, considering Mace was able to defeat Sidious while the other three jedi master died. then there's Dooku who was able to hold his own against yoda(for a while until he retreated) how can you say they're 'Not all that impressive'?

1. I believe the Sith Triumverate > Yoda and Sidious anyway.

2. There is a hell of a lot of evidence that Sidious held back against Mace.

3. Likewise the narration states that Yoda hel back against Dooku.

4. Dooku was hardly Yoda's equal simply because he survived a duel with him for about 30 seconds. In Dark Rendesvous with the advantage of being on a world steeped in the dark side, Dooku was still not a match for Yoda, and recently in the cartoon got completely owned by Sidious from across the Galaxy.

5. So imo the evidence suggests that Mace and Dooku are nowhere near as good as Yoda and Sidious, and to reiterate, I don't think Yoda or Sidious are as good as Traya or Sion in the first place.

6. I would conclude that Windu and Dooku are simply the standard #3/#4 type guys you would get in any era, impressive to be sure, but hardly groundbreaking. Sion actually reached an unimaginably great height that very few ever came close to, whether it was DE Sids, Krayt, Exar Kun, Simus etc.

So far all I've seen you do is make excuses for Sion instead of put forth a cohesive argument for why you consider him to be so great.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
3. Likewise the narration states that Yoda hel back against Dooku.

Really? Where?

1. Those excuses are valid.
2. I already posted the evidence bro, he achieved something that nobody else did, that gives him a freakishly massive advantage in these battles.

Stated in DR I think, not sure but somewhere Yoda does state that he didn't have it in him to defeat his former pupil. Either way in light of their battle in DR and Sids owning him from across the galaxy I don't think you can argue that he's anywhere near as good as Yoda or Sidious.

Simply put the idea that Mace or especially Dooku are all that great in the grand scheme of things is nonsense imo, whereas someone like Sion clearly is.

You mean his regeneration? Well sure its a great skill, but I don't see how that gives him prowess above the people you put him over.

It's a massive advantage, and it speaks to him having qualities that enabled him to succeed where so many others failed, such as DE Sids and virtually everyone that we know of.

That he doesn't have that many feats doesn't mean we dismiss him, when the one feat he does have is one of the most amazing ones ever.

Mace's shatterpoint should and can take down Sion's regen.He should easily be able to focus and utilize on all of Sion's cracks. Especially with the aid of Dooku's lightning, which I recall has burned people from ash. Sion has his limitations, and some things, despite his anger, he just can't handle, ie powerful enough lightning or shatterpoint.


Which is?

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It's a massive advantage, and it speaks to him having qualities that enabled him to succeed where so many others failed, such as DE Sids and virtually everyone that we know of.

That he doesn't have that many feats doesn't mean we dismiss him, when the one feat he does have is one of the most amazing ones ever.

Or a natural affinity for that particular skill. Which is something certain Force adepts just possess. Just because he's better at one aspect of the Force doesn't mean he's stellar with other aspects.

Its not that great.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mostly because of the monstrous power Talzin gave him. And for how impressive he is, I don't get why Talzin isn't just churning out brutes like him. It didn't seem to be something she can't replicate.
Keep in mind she had help from the rest of her clan when transforming Savage. After the rest of the Nightsisters were wiped out by the CIS, I doubt she could've so easily replicated that technique.

The Nightsisters have actually done this before though. Talzin mentions in Book of the Sith that "through the magicks of a the Fanged God, a warrior can be transformed into an avatar of primal anger."

I imagine that the reason they don't do it more is because they pretty much have the Nightbrothers enslaved. I doubt they'd want to give them the strength to revolt.

I'd like to point out that a lot of Savage's saber prowess comes from his overwhelming physical strength.

Team one takes this. I'm not sure Sion's regenerative powers will save him here.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team one takes this. I'm not sure Sion's regenerative powers will save him here.
Especially not with Windu's shatterpoint. Nice seeing you again

Yeah it's good to be back. been on quite the long hiatus. Expect me to be posting more consistently, prolly gonna check out these other threads.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She does.

No she doesn't. Inb4 giga drain and owning of talentless feebs.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
This makes no sense brah.

He is virtually featless kid.




KOTOR campaign guide states it requires a ridiculous amount of concentration. The only reason he even regenerated as much as he did vs. the Exile is because he was on a DS Nexus which is irrelevant in this matchup.




Dooku owned Ventress with a finger, dominated three of the nightsisters finest while drugged and intoxicated, KO'd Sora Bulq with ease, owned Ventress with a gesture, wounded the most powerful Master in the Old Jedi Order's history. Want more? Said Jedi Master hailed him as the order's greatest student.



Gameplay is n-canon. She could have stealthed her way by as well.




Prove he was holding back. He said he would kill her. So that seems to show me that he wasn't.




No limits fallacy. Sion has shown no way of surviving decapitation.



Its not really hard to argue. In game at no point has Sion survived getting his head chopped off, hell the Exile never even goes for cutting his arm off.




http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/rofl.gif

I'd just like to point out that Traya's gigadrain does not make Meetra's victory against her impressive in the context of this fight because Meetra is immune to drain, and neither of her opponents will use it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He is virtually featless kid.




KOTOR campaign guide states it requires a ridiculous amount of concentration. The only reason he even regenerated as much as he did vs. the Exile is because he was on a DS Nexus which is irrelevant in this matchup.

I can't believe I forgot about that, god I feel like a dumbass.
Lord Stark is right, when Meetra fought him on korriban the only reason he didn't go down was because of the DS Nexus, its also one of the reasons he managed to catch Lonna Vash off guard. honestly with every thing Stark has said I've begun to lean more towards team 1, I mean while Sion is undoubtedly a great combatant and duelist without the DS Nexus he really isn't much(even Kreia says so) so while he may stand on even ground with Dooku or Mace eventually either of them would overwhelm Sion and defeat him, leaving Meetra to fend off two of the most powerful swordsmen of their time, and while she may be a excellent duelist I highly doubt she would able to defeat both Dooku and Mace, even with her Force Enlightenment ability. Even with that said, I still think she could've defeated Dooku or Mace(with a whole lot of effort) had I partnered her with someone like Anakin, Yoda, Revan or Luke.

mmm

Team 1