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Many people have the belief the KotOR era is weak (mainly due to how easily Meetra got beat by a TOR Sith), however this is not the case. All pics taken from Knights of the Old Republic campaign guide.

The Jedi Order of Knights of the Old Republic had large numbers of expert swordsman and force-related powers. More members are also more active and in the battlefield then the likes of the Prequel Trilogy and other eras.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/jedi10.png
Lightsaber and melee dueling is a frequent practice throughout the galaxy.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/duelis11.png
Darth Revan's Sith Empire is stated to be an equal to the size and power of Palpatine's own Sith Empire.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/empire10.png
In a short amount of time, Darth Revan's Sith Empire was able to control 1/3 of the known galaxy, a very impressive feat. Alongside him were thousands of Dark Jedi.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/revan_11.png
All factions of the galaxy have been in constant warfare, making many very experienced fighters.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/warfar10.png

Who says it's weak?

BTW, the campaign guide also says that during this time "these are the days of the Jedi in their prime" and "the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence."

Suck it TOR. http://thelifestream.net/forums/images/smilies/cookiemonster.gif

Retconned. TOR is the best era. Suck it PT.

So, TOR>KotOR>PT?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Retconned. TOR is the best era. Suck it PT.

Got a source officially retconning it? Because I've seen nothing saying the TOR Order is the best.

Also, what section of the book says those quotes? They can be very helpful for me in future debates. Thanks for telling me though.

Originally posted by ares834
Who says it's weak?

BTW, the campaign guide also says that during this time "these are the days of the Jedi in their prime" and "the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence."


It is hard to be self-confident when half the galaxy is owned by Sith!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, what section of the book says those quotes? They can be very helpful for me in future debates. Thanks for telling me though.

They are on the black pages. Pages 103 and 129.

You're my new bff.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/yay10.png
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/yay210.png

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You're my new bff.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/yay10.png

It just says that its the time of the Jedi in their prime moreso than the Clone Wars. Which, hah! Suck it PT!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/yay210.png
Thats actually referring to the Jedi as of Exar Kun.

Plus as eyerolling as it may seem, I think that may refer to their political power. The rest of the paragraph is solely focused on the organisation and function of the Order, not their martial power. The Kotor period was the time when the Jedi were the de facto Republic military and the Republic was heavily reliant on them to the point of degradation in the martial power of the actual army (SWTORE).

The first one is referring to the Jedi as of Revan, the second is referring to the Jedi as of Exar Kun. However, I don't see much of a difference however. Also, PT>TOR. Suck it TOR.

There's another Legend out there.

What? Are you referring to S_W_LeGenD?

I'd say they simply had multiple primes.

The schism with Revan's forces causing so many Jedi to defect really did a number on them.

Theres no way the Kotor era is the best after that imo.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The first one is referring to the Jedi as of Revan, the second is referring to the Jedi as of Exar Kun. However, I don't see much of a difference however. Also, PT>TOR. Suck it TOR.

I edited my post to be more in depth.

Yet the sentence that follows is solely about the Jedi in battle with mandos and Sith.

No it isn't. Thats the first quote, which is merely a comparison to the PT era.

Which is what I was referring to.
Also, PT been stated to be the prime of the Jedi, so don't say "merely."

Well I was referring to the second quote when I suggested it was talking about political authority. So your point doesn't affect mine.

Meh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It just says that its the time of the Jedi in their prime moreso than the Clone Wars. Which, hah! Suck it PT!

Sure. KotOR>PT>Everything else.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus as eyerolling as it may seem, I think that may refer to their political power. The rest of the paragraph is solely focused on the organisation and function of the Order, not their martial power. The Kotor period was the time when the Jedi were the de facto Republic military and the Republic was heavily reliant on them to the point of degradation in the martial power of the actual army (SWTORE).

It is eye rolling because the the guide mentions several times how during this era the Jedi aren't diplomats and that the Order is decentralized. Heck, the main Jedi Temple isn't even on Coruscant at this time. Beyond that the obvious time the Jedi were at the height of their political power would be during the New Sith Wars when there were Jedi Supreme Chancellors and they were pretty much running the whole show.

Btw, I personally feel 'prime of the Jedi' has a lot to do with raw numbers, rather than most individually powerful.

'Cause, NJO is both small and hella powerful, and not called a 'prime.'

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. KotOR>PT>Everything else.

Except that objectively the TOR era would steamroll both eras.

Originally posted by ares834
It is eye rolling because the the guide mentions several times how during this era the Jedi aren't diplomats and that the Order is decentralized. Heck, the main Jedi Temple isn't even on Coruscant at this time. Beyond that the obvious time the Jedi were at the height of their political power would be during the New Sith Wars when there were Jedi Supreme Chancellors and they were pretty much running the whole show.

I don't see how them not being diplomats changes anything and they weren't even centralised? Lol, then I seriously doubt they were the Jedi's prime military form then.

As of the New Sith Wars they were also taking heavy losses in a massively dragged out war though. I wasn't talking about politics politics, I was talking about their power as the primary military force of the Republic.

The TOR era was a) many, many times the size of the Order in the Kotor period, b) on par with Vitiates Empire which was vastly improved over the Golden Age of the Sith and c) had access to the knowledge of the Kotor period and that of the Force Wars.

The Kotor period is specifically said to see the Jedi in a terrible position of strength. Theres barely a hundred left after the war, Bastila is the only thing holding the Sith offensive back, half of their number was corrupted, theres huge division, disillusion and uncertainty in the Order. Literally their last chance was Revan and Bastila. How exactly are they the prime of the Jedi compared to a fresh, full-strength and utterly united order of millions who are experiencing a Jedi Renaissance?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that objectively the TOR era would steamroll both eras.

Nah.

Unless you have statements calling the TOR period the "golden age of the Jedi" or some variant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how them not being diplomats changes anything and they weren't even centralised? Lol, then I seriously doubt they were the Jedi's prime military form then.

That's what the evidence says.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of the New Sith Wars they were also taking heavy losses in a massively dragged out war though. I wasn't talking about politics politics, I was talking about their power as the primary military force of the Republic.

I'm not sure how being the "primary military force of the Republic" means the Jedi are at their "height of their power" pg 104. I mean, as you point out, the military at this time is weak so it's not like each Jedi is commanding entire armies.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Kotor period is specifically said to see the Jedi in a terrible position of strength. Theres barely a hundred left after the war, Bastila is the only thing holding the Sith offensive back, half of their number was corrupted, theres huge division, disillusion and uncertainty in the Order. Literally their last chance was Revan and Bastila. How exactly are they the prime of the Jedi compared to a fresh, full-strength and utterly united order of millions who are experiencing a Jedi Renaissance?

Well, yeah... I'm talking prior to that.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah.

Unless you have statements calling the TOR period the "golden age of the Jedi" or some variant.

I don't need it, they'd beat them both put together. The numbers advantage is too great. And the TOR era is just as well trained, has just as good a connection to the Light Side, is just as militarily competent etc etc. Seriously, what advantages does the PT and Kotor periods have? The PT era has limited experience against Force users and mostly fights with Niman and Soresu because of it. And the Kotor period had huge internal problems.

Originally posted by ares834
That's what the evidence says.

Its what a statement says. The evidence suggests otherwise. And since the TOR period didn't exist before that statement was made, I'm not taking it at face value.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not sure how being the "primary military force of the Republic" means the Jedi are at their "height of their power" pg 104. I mean, as you point out, the military at this time is weak so it's not like each Jedi is commanding entire armies.

Its the height of their power as a peacekeeping force. The Jedi Order exists to protect the Republic. As the primary force protecting it, that could be seen as them at the summit of their power in that regard.

Originally posted by ares834
Well, yeah... I'm talking prior to that.

When? What do you term as the 'Kotor period?'

Any time after or during the Mando Wars? I don't think so since half the order defected and they had huge problems in terms of rogue Jedi and the other problems I listed. Even before then they had issues with Lucien Dray and co and Revan was still around and stirring shit up. It can't have been just after the Exar Kun war since the paragraphs you're referring to mention how badly damaged the Jedi Order was after that war. Before then? Is that still the same era?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't need it, they'd beat them both put together. The numbers advantage is too great. And the TOR era is just as well trained, has just as good a connection to the Light Side, is just as militarily competent etc etc. Seriously, what advantages does the PT and Kotor periods have? The PT era has limited experience against Force users and mostly fights with Niman and Soresu because of it. And the Kotor period had huge internal problems.

Well, according to certain canon statements, apparently not. Anyway, while the number of KotOR era Jedi is never given (nor are TOR's numbers) it is stated to be "many more" than during the PT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its what a statement says. The evidence suggests otherwise. And since the TOR period didn't exist before that statement was made, I'm not taking it at face value.

Still canon.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Its the height of their power as a peacekeeping force. The Jedi Order exists to protect the Republic. As the primary force protecting it, that could be seen as them at the summit of their power in that regard.



That's a pretty deliberate twisting of facts and really in no way constitutes "power".

Originally posted by Nephthys
When? What do you term as the 'Kotor period?'

Everything in the campaign guide. So from the Sith War up until the end of Dark Wars.

Originally posted by ares834
Well, according to certain canon statements, apparently not. Anyway, while the number of KotOR era Jedi is never given (nor are TOR's numbers) it is stated to be "many more" than during the PT.

Name a way the PT or Kotor eras Orders could beat the TOR one.

Given that they were down to a hundred Jedi by the end, I highly doubt there were millions of them at the time. And there were only thousands during the Great Sith War, a mere 40 years before Kotor.

TOR's number of Jedi can be inferred from the Sith numbers. If there was a significant difference in numbers it would have been mentioned at some point.

Originally posted by ares834
Still canon.



http://i.imgur.com/XNFgdkb.gif

Boo hoo.

Originally posted by ares834


That's a pretty deliberate twisting of facts and really in no way constitutes "power".

Well how about you read through that paragraph and give me your interpretation of what it means.

Originally posted by ares834
Everything in the campaign guide. So from the Sith War up until the end of Dark Wars.

Then my point stands, theres no way that period of time represents the Jedi at their peak.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Name a way the PT or Kotor eras Orders could beat the TOR one.

Better trained Jedi. More Jedi. Etc... Not saying it is necessarily all of those, but it could be.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Given that they were down to a hundred Jedi by the end, I highly doubt there were millions of them at the time. And there were only thousands during the Great Sith War, a mere 40 years before Kotor.

Where is this mentioned?

Originally posted by Nephthys
TOR's number of Jedi can be inferred from the Sith numbers. If there was a significant difference in numbers it would have been mentioned at some point.

Apparently not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well how about you read through that paragraph and give me your interpretation of what it means.

Exactly what it says, the Jedi Order as of the KotOR era is the most powerful. You pit the KotOR era Jedi Order against any other and they will win.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Then my point stands, theres no way that period of time represents the Jedi at their peak.

Well that's what the sources say.

*shrug*

KOTOR is not weak.
I would like to read more about this era....
It was a great era,Revan,Malak,Kreia, those were characters that made you want to read more about the Mandalorians Wars and what happened to Taris,Peragus,and Malacor V.

Was any thing of Malacor or Peragus left? like asteroids or something?

Originally posted by ares834
Better trained Jedi. More Jedi. Etc... Not saying it is necessarily all of those, but it could be.

Wow, so convincing.

Not. There's no reason to think the Jedi of Kotor were better trained than they were in TOR and they weren't more numerous. The Jedi in TOR were actual warriors and were better equipped than the ones in Kotor since they actually wore armor and made wide use of shield generators and other war-time tech that the Kotor Order didn't. Furthermore, there are way more examples of powerful Jedi in the TOR period than there were in the Kotor period. And those examples were more powerful than those in Kotor.

Originally posted by ares834
Where is this mentioned?

When the entire Order gathers above Yavin 4 to form the Wall of Light.

Originally posted by ares834
Apparently not.

I don't know why you're so resistant to this idea. It only makes sense that if the Sith numbers were so high then the Jedi numbers would be similar. Especially since WAY more Sith acolytes are killed during their training than the Jedi padawans and the Empire has WAY less of a population than the Republic and is stated multiple times to be outnumbered, with their droids making up the difference irrc.

Originally posted by ares834
Exactly what it says, the Jedi Order as of the KotOR era is the most powerful. You pit the KotOR era Jedi Order against any other and they will win.

Yeah, but they wouldn't. You wanna make a thread and see how many people blindly follow your interpretation of that quote over the hard facts that make the TOR era superior?

And that isn't representative of the rest of the paragraph. I don't think thats what it means.

Originally posted by ares834
Well that's what the sources say.

*shrug*

http://i.4cdn.org/a/src/1396031770949.gif

That was written before the TOR era was explored and isn't representative of the current state of affairs.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When the entire Order gathers above Yavin 4 to form the Wall of Light.

So after a war that ripped the order in two... Yeah... I thought you were implying prior to the Sith War not after.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know why you're so resistant to this idea. It only makes sense that if the Sith numbers were so high then the Jedi numbers would be similar. Especially since WAY more Sith acolytes are killed during their training than the Jedi padawans and the Empire has WAY less of a population than the Republic and is stated multiple times to be outnumbered, with their droids making up the difference irrc.

This logic would then apply to almost all Jedi Orders. I mean, the PT Jedi Order controls more of the galaxy than the either the Republic or Sith Empire as of TOR so they should have larger numbers of Jedi then either of them. Thanks for reaffirming that PT>TOR.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but they wouldn't. You wanna make a thread and see how many people blindly follow your interpretation of that quote over the hard facts that make the TOR era superior?

"Hard facts"?

You mean speculation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And that isn't representative of the rest of the paragraph. I don't think thats what it means.

It certainly doesn't go into military or political power...

Also the "Jedi in their prime" quote goes immediately into how the Jedi battle Mandalorians and Sith. Or how about this, on page 104 it mentions, "the Jedi go from the height of their power to a mere remnant of their existence." But of course, they are talking about political power amirite?

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://i.4cdn.org/a/src/1396031770949.gif

That was written before the TOR era was explored and isn't representative of the current state of affairs.

And, since nothing has directly contradicted it, it's still canon.

Actually, the new starwars.com featurette: The Birth of the Lightsaber says: "It wasn't until Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace that audiences would see Jedi battling in their prime; the duels were more aggressive and acrobatic than anything seen in the original trilogy, and only grew in scale and intensity as the series continued."

The Prequel Trilogy remains the dominant era.