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I mean they have all the answers to the Sith predicament already, they just havent chosen to reconcile with it. I guess because we've seen the last Three Episodes we know in advance that the Emperor is a Sith Lord, but with the given evidence so far, especially in Episode II, I don't see how they can ignore the looming evidence.

First off, they know Jango Fett is the template for the clone army on Kamino. They also know hes on the payroll of Count Dooku, the leader of the Confederacy of Indepedent Systems which happens to be the exact opposite of who the clones are being utilized by, the Republic.

Automatically they have to know something is up. If it wasnt for Mace killing Jango, they of course could have retrieved all the information, but either Windu was covering up his (or Sidious') tracks or honestly thought Jango was a threat (despite the shortness and futility of Jangos attacks).

Then Dooku throws them the bone, giving Kenobi the missing piece of the puzzle. There is a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious who is in control of the Senate. Well its obvious to us who is in control of the Senate right now, but isnt it to everyone else. They all know Palpatine is in the place of the power, especially with the emergency powers act. Yodas suspicious glare, Kenobis admission to Anakin that Palpatine has cleverly increased his power with every move. With this last move, I think it's strikingly obvious who the bad guy is. All the pieces fit.

So in all of this, two years later when Episode III starts, do you think the Jedi or other senators will be working on possible suspicions that Palpatine may be part of the Sith or at least be operating under their control. I know they don't believe Dooku because he's part of the Dark Side now, but how can you deny the validity when the link between some sort of political sleight of hand is used, when the Sith were stupid enough to employ Fett on both sides of the war?


Thoughts...

Actually, from some of what they do, I am rather worried that the Jedi ARE a little stupid, but never mind.

From THEIR point of view Jango's role is weird. The Jedi only have a brief reference to the name 'Tyrannus' so who hired Jango is a mystery. They can suspect it is Dooku, but that is all. That Jango went to Geonosis is probably an indication to them that the Clone Army was Dooku's- and was captured by the Republic just in time. They do not know that Dooku was intending for that to happen.

Dooku telling Obi-Wan about Sidious is class- because it almost completely removes suspicion of Dooku being anything more than a Fallen Jedi. They think he is trying to mislead everyone, and he IS- but by telling the TRUTH. This seems to have foxed them, though it is maybe disappointing that Yoda didn't guess that the Sith may try such a bold gambit. Still, they aren't ignoring what he said- they agreed to keep a close watch on the Senate.

I think we have to conclude that things are much harder for the Jedi in the story than it is for us, and they are not sure WHAT to think. It simply must have occurred to them that Dooku COULD be a Sith but they would need proof.

But I feel that with SO much on their side, the Jedi will have to make stupid mistakes for the bad guys to win.

what you are saying makes a lot of sense, they are coming off as being stupid, or at least very very narrowminded. the only defense that i can think of for the jedi is that "the dark side clouds everything"

We know that anakin thinks palpatine is a good person, but older more experienced jedi like obi wan know that he, like much of the rest of the senate are all politians, wanting only one thing: power. Unfortunetely, the movies don't let us get close to many of the jedi, just Obiwan, Anakin, and a little of windu and yoda. it is quite possible that many other jedi, once hearing the rumor (remember, to them it is a rumor) that the senate is under the control of darth sidious may put 2 and 2 together.

As for Anakin, and why he believes that Palpatine is a good man, it may be one of two things.

1) Anakin has been under the influence of palpatine since he started his training

2) he is very naive

I would put my money on number 1

the jedi fear the sith because they were so powerful, they are in denial. can't really blame them, human beings have a tendancy to fear the unknown, and right now the events that happened are very much unknown to them. we as the viewers know much more than the guys in the film so we don't really know what the jedi know and GL wants us in suspense. the cameras shows things that are much more obvious to us than the jedi so we know this and thats happening.

I definately get the feeling that the Jedi Order as a whole has serious issues when it comes to discerning between good and evil. Not just Anakin Skywalker or Count Dooku, the entire Order has a difficulty it defining what is good and what is evil, or better yet, they have a difficulty even discerning it.

Yoda admits himself that more and more Jedi are uncertain, young and old alike. Free spirits like Qui-Gon Jinn, and their philosophy of the Living Force might be to blame. It's sad that Lucas had to use the element of the Dark Side "clouds" a Jedi's ability to see evil and to eliminate the threat it brings.

I agree this charade Palpatine has constructed is completely paper thin. He has risen from a mere Senator of an unpopular, backwater planet to Supreme Chancellor, the most powerful individual in the Galaxy, within the course of ten very short years. The Jedi know this. They know that the Sith Order has resurfaced and they know that both Darth Maul and Count Dooku were part of it. They know there is a missing piece of the puzzle somewhere; to me it seems strikingly obvious.

However.

There are reasons to see the reality of the Jedis inability to recognize danger. First off, Palpatine isn't much of a threat. He's worked hand-in-hand with the Jedi, and apart from Yoda's look and Obi-Wan's comment, the man is clean. Darth Sidious, or whoever they believe him to be, is the one they are looking for. Plus the fact that he is so close to them, it would seem unlikely that not only a Sith Lord, but the Sith Master would ally himself with the Jedi, or appear to be.

Also, in all of Palpatine's movements he acts as though his hands are being forced. He acquires the clones because of the Senate and the Loyalty Committee forcing him. The Jedi go along, having to rescue their own and aware of Count Dooku's threat. In fact, without Palpatine they might do the same thing. So, in this way, Palpatine stays beneath the radar.

Why, dont they see the Jango Fett - Count Dooku connection? Well, first would be that they certainly don't think Count Dooku would do anything to support the public. They truly believe that he is completely against the Republic, which makes him their enemy. Seeing that he is now under Sith control, or a Sith Lord (perhaps in their eyes the master of Darth Maul, perhaps in their eyes Count Dooku's death with mark the end of the Sith which is why Palpatine and Vader take them by surprise), they believe the Separatist Movement is the greater evil. Palpatine's consolidation of unfettered power is small in comparison to the power of the Dark Side, little do they realize that both are on the same team.

Another reason the Jango Fett connection hasn't hit them as a shock is because bounty hunters don't really carry with them allegiance. Obviously Jango Fett has a reputation, and regardless of the Sifo-Dyas mystery, it's feasible that both the Jedi who commissioned the clone armies and Count Dooku could be indepedently contracting Jango.

Count Dooku becomes more and more the red herring, the obvious Sith Master throughout the story for the Jedi, I think the Order may just assume that he is or was the Sith Master. There is only two, and they are aware that one died during the Battle Of Naboo, rather then make the assumption that the then Sith Master was another individual altogether, they believe he is Count Dooku (who had access to the archives / and was more then likely aware of Master Sifo-Dyas' death). It makes logical sense, if they had no clue about Sidious. And why believe Count Dooku on Geonosis, about Sidious. Like Yoda said, he's part of the Dark Side, and he apparently doesn't have a history of telling the truth.

But the evidence is mounting against the Jedi's inherent inability to come to grips with reality. Here are some of the pieces of evidence the Jedi know, and just based on these alone it makes it pretty frustrating to see the tnire Order get wiped out, and they don't even see it coming.

1) They know the Sith have returned, and they are aware of the Sith forename "Darth."
2. They know the Sith Order's goal is ultimately to control the Galaxy.
3) They know that the Sith had a hand in the events on Naboo.
4) They know Palpatine obtained his position because of the events on Naboo.
5) They know that someone placed an order for a clone army years ago, this someone was allegedly Sifo-Dyas who couldn't have placed the order because he was dead. This tells him that someone was posing as an imposter.
6) They know that someone who has access to the Jedi archives erased Kamino from the maps.
7) They know that Count Dooku is now a Sith Lord, and I think it's fair to assume they know he was aware of Sifo-Dyas' indentity, death and had access to the archives.
8) They had heard that a Sith Lord named "Darth Tyranus" contacted Jang Fett to become the template for the clones.
9) They know that Jango Fett was under the employment of Count Dooku, someone who is known to be a Sith Lord.

The most significant factor is the conversation between Dooku and Obi-Wan. It can't be brushed aside due to Dooku's betrayal of the Order, Dooku is sincere in his request of Obi-Wan's services. We know that because he gives Obi-Wan sensitive information. The Jedi should know this because there is no reason for Dooku to tell Obi-Wan any of this, there would be no purpose. Obi-Wan is captured, there is no information or need for interrogation. Dooku approaches Obi-Wan, attempts to entice him and honestly wants the Jedi Knight to join him. Why would he lie? There would be no need for it. So he could free Obi-Wan and then have the Jedi escape?

The only reason Count Dooku would ask Obi-Wan is because he is being sincere, this should be the only reason apparent to the audience or to the Jedi or to any other objective viewer. So, this in and of itself, makes Yoda's skepticism of Dooku seem stupid and irrational. Yoda, being the figure-head and virtual brains of the Jedi, puts the idiocy of the Jedi in perspective.

perhaps.....perhaps not......hind sight is 20-20....

Hmm,. I think that is a case of serious over-analysis...

BTW, that all assumes that the Jedi know Dooku is a Sith Lord. It cannot be stressed strongly enough that this is something the AUDIENCE knows, not the Jedi. As I said in my post above, they may suspect but they have no proof at all. They also do NOT have the name 'Darth Tyrannus'. Only the name 'Tyrannus' in relation to who hired Jango. We were told that Tyrannus is a Sith at the end of the film; that is privileged. The Jedi know a lot less than much of that all assumes.

Yoda's scepticism of Dooku is essential- he is on the Dark Side! Trust NOTHING he says! And even so, as I said, they DO keep the Senate under observation BECAUSE of what Dooku said.

As it is his outright revelation of the truth has the effect intended- but then if anyone knew the right words that would cause this amount of confusion, it would be a Jedi as senior as Dooku!

at the end when dooku met up with sidious in AOTC, dooku said that everything had gone to plan. that means that all of the events that occured were supposed to occur in further the sith's plans of galactic domination.

Dooku told obi wan everything because he knew that obi wan would not join him (obi wan is a jedi that does everything by the book. well, almost everything). He also knew that once obiwan had escaped, he would tell the jedi council all that he had learned. Dooku knew that obiwan had been to camino from jango, and obiwan had followed jango to geonosis. From there he implanted pieces of information to further schizm and seperate both the senate and jedi council

As for humans fearing the unknown. not all the jedi are humans, but since we are humans and all we know is being human, we apply our own traits to characters that wouldn't necessarily have them

Dooku allegedly left the Order over Qui Gon's demise when the council refused to see the rising threat of the sith. So I don't believe the Jedi Masters are even considering Count Dooku as the unseen master of Maul. Even if (from their point of view) the count left before his former student's death, he would not be as evil and consumed with the dark side powers as to train the monster who was sent to kill both Qui Gon and Obi Wan. This is why I don't think they are even thinking Dooku is the one causing all the trouble with the senate, the republic and the jedi knights. They simply know he has recently turned over to the dark side and is a fallen jedi master.

really? i didn't know dooku left the jedi because ggj died.

So they say.

Its all a conspiricy I tell ya ~ A CONSPIRICY!

Yes, that is why I said allegedly. I do not know if it is true or not, that's just what I heard somewhere. And I agree with the previous poster, it does sound like a CONSPIRACY.

conspiracy or not.....gotta feel sorry for all the jedi who are murdered....or die in the purge

Jedi Genocide does have a certain ring to it though doesn't it?

Jedicide.

the cameras still show more obvious things to us audiences. its this dramatic irony stuff.

I think the jedi are more blind than actually dumb.

or maybe a little from column A, and a little from column B....

or it just might be the cameras that show the audience more. or else the jedi are dumb and blind.

they became arrogant like yoda said, no?

Good point. Now you mention it I do recall him saying that to Obi Wan and Mace.

AOTC, when OB1 says Anakins abilities has made him arrogant

Yes that was the scene I was thinking of!

weren't we talking about the whole jedi and not just anakin?

Yes, that was the scene where Yoda told Obi Wan and Mace that a lot of jedi are becoming more arrogant, after Obi Wan said Anakin is arrogant.

and of course yoda was hinting that obi wan was also one of those types of jedi, not to an extreme, but a certain amount yes. mostly because i don't think it was the "jedi" thing to do when he jumped out the window after the droid. plus in the old trilogy obi wan said he too sought adventure and such when he was young

Yes Yoda was alluding to Obi Wan being a bit arrrogant, I caught that when I saw the film. Didn't remember the rest though.

I can only remember so much. For my visions are some what clouded.

Not to worry, cookies2006, your powers will grow with time! Then you will be...invincible!

in the meantime ... sit and learn?

Something along those lines, Yes!