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Cyborg ninja Raiden from the Metal Gear games clashes his sword against the substitute shinigami's from the Bleach Manga.

This will be Ichigo from SS to FKT arc but is prohibited from going Final Getsuga and certainly can't go Vasto Lorde. He starts off in his base form. Bankai and Hollow Mask are allowed.

Battle will take place in Karakura Town.

Can Raiden keep up with Ichigo's speed, will he survive Ichigo's power ups long enough for them to tucker the soul reaper out, can Ichigo withstand his opponent's monstrous strength? Who will win in this fight?

He can take the win if he attacks Ichigo's Shikai and Bankai. Mask Ichi will be wearing Raiden out with those Getsugas.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
http://www.trbimg.com/img-5138026f/turbine/chi-20130306-004/600/600x300http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/127/463715-screen_shot_2011_09_10_at_7.00.21_pm_super.jpg

Cyborg ninja Raiden from the Metal Gear games clashes his sword against the substitute shinigami's from the Bleach Manga.

This will be Ichigo from SS to FKT arc but is prohibited from going Final Getsuga and certainly can't go Vasto Lorde. He starts off in his base form. Bankai and Hollow Mask are allowed.

Battle will take place in Karakura Town.

Can Raiden keep up with Ichigo's speed, will he survive Ichigo's power ups long enough for them to tucker the soul reaper out, can Ichigo withstand his opponent's monstrous strength? Who will win in this fight?

1. Yes, and easily
2. Well I don't think Raiden can survive Ichigo's attacks, since he's lower end city level last I was aware
3. Not sure, though Raiden is prolly stronger
4. Raiden can win if he can avoid Ichigo's energy attacks

Raiden can't avoid his energy attacks. Contrary to popular belief Raiden isn't very fast. Sundowner implied that he's slower than mach 2, and Raiden couldn't even blitz that Scientist who had a gun to George's head and had to bifurcate him.

Meanwhile Bleach characters were hitting multiple mach speeds early in the series.

Basically he dies horribly, Ichigo could easily blitz him, probably even over power him since characters in Bleach were easily class 100+, and has so many options to kill him.

Unintentional spite..

And yet you have Raiden deflecting machine gun fire from close range, cutting guys to small pieces with swords the size of houses in the time it takes falling rubble the time to fall a millimeter

Why are you using a low showing anyways?

It's a tactic fanboys use to make their favorite character win. Example quan she, he always lowballs characters he doesn't like and highballs or wanks his characters that he does like.

I'm well aware of this tactic chuckles. It's very common, Star Wars threads being a shining example

Originally posted by StealthRanger
And yet you have Raiden deflecting machine gun fire from close range, cutting guys to small pieces with swords the size of houses in the time it takes falling rubble the time to fall a millimeter

Why are you using a low showing anyways? Deflecting machine gun fire is a peak human feat, and yes, I can show several examples of peak humans deflecting machine gun fire.

Raiden cutting enemies to small pieces in a few seconds is with use of blade mode which is a game play mechanic. We don't use game play mechanics.

I'm not using low showings, I'm using factual information that's actually presented canonically, where you're trying to pass off a mediocre feat like deflecting machine gun fire, or using gameplay mechanics in an argument.

Try harder

Originally posted by MicCheck
Deflecting machine gun fire is a peak human feat, and yes, I can show several examples of peak humans deflecting machine gun fire.

Raiden cutting enemies to small pieces in a few seconds is with use of blade mode which is a game play mechanic. We don't use game play mechanics.

I'm not using low showings, I'm using factual information, where you're trying to pass off a mediocre feat like deflecting machine gun fire, or using gameplay mechanics in an argument.

Try harder

lol, show me one peak human who can deflect machine gun fire with his blade casually (by that I mean cut bullets down with your blade, not hold up and object infront of you to stop the bullets)

No, Blade Mode is a legit ability, and yes we have used his before in debates and in QTEs he uses one of Excelsus' (sp?) arms in blade mode, so it's canon

No, you're lowballing by trying to use low ends

Hang on, I gotta get my post count up, I'll own you again in a bit

Same guy always makes a new account to low ball MGS characters.

It ain't low balling if it's true and consistent, which you know...it is...

People like to scream low balling when they can't come up with any counter argument.

Not it isn't

And you clearly don't know how vs debating works

Originally posted by StealthRanger
lol, show me one peak human who can deflect machine gun fire with his blade casually (by that I mean cut bullets down with your blade, not hold up and object infront of you to stop the bullets)

No, Blade Mode is a legit ability, and yes we have used his before in debates and in QTEs he uses one of Excelsus' (sp?) arms in blade mode, so it's canon

No, you're lowballing by trying to use low ends

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/KatanablocksBullets.jpg

Now you can stop about machine gun fire, it's getting sad at this point


Kenji Saito, the director for the game states that it's a gameplay mechanic

http://www.primagames.com/games/metal-gear-rising-revengeance/strategy/director-kenji-saito-talks-metal-gear-rising-reven

Where was blade mode when George had a gun to his head? Where was blade mode in any cut scene in the game, against Sam, or Sundowner, or Armstrong?

Oh yeah, it doesn't exist outside of a gameplay mechanic. Tough sh*t

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Not it isn't

And you clearly don't know how vs debating works Yeah, it is, and apparently I know how vs debating works better than you.

Says Blade Mode is a legit ability, yet Raiden doesn't use it on at least three occasions where it would of helped him significantly

Originally posted by MicCheck
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/KatanablocksBullets.jpg

Now you can stop about machine gun fire, it's getting sad at this point


Kenji Saito, the director for the game states that it's a gameplay mechanic

http://www.primagames.com/games/metal-gear-rising-revengeance/strategy/director-kenji-saito-talks-metal-gear-rising-reven

Where was blade mode when George had a gun to his head? Where was blade mode in any cut scene in the game, against Sam, or Sundowner, or Armstrong?

Oh yeah, it doesn't exist outside of a gameplay mechanic. Tough sh*t

Or said peak humans are ****ing fast. Maybe that idea completely eluded your ass, no?

He doesn't disregard it as a legit ability and describes it's use in game. Plus feats>authors intent

Ever heard of a low end showing?

Maybe those ****ers are incredibly fast. Is the concept of powerscaling that foreign to you?

Jesus, this is almost as dumb as disregarding Star Wars high end speed feats because they've been gunned down by blaster bolts and such shit

Raiden's reaction and combat speed is crazy high sure, but his running speed is not supersonic.

Didn't quite say it was but, whatever

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Or said peak humans are ****ing fast. Maybe that idea completely eluded your ass, no?

He doesn't disregard it as a legit ability and describes it's use in game. Plus feats>authors intent

Ever heard of a low end showing?

Maybe those ****ers are incredibly fast. Is the concept of powerscaling that foreign to you?

Jesus, this is almost as dumb as disregarding Star Wars high end speed feats because they've been gunned down by blaster bolts and such shit lol your rage is adorable,

My entire statement was that peak humans have deflected machine gun fire, it's not something to write home about.

My entire point is that you don't defend a character like Raiden and use a mediocre feat

It would be like defending Superman and saying he's strong because he can lift a car or a bus over his head.

You can use blade mode agains Sam, Sundowner and Armstrong in gameplay itself, just that Raiden never uses it in cut scenes or any canon material.

So yeah...gameplay mechanic..

And really, if you think that scientist was so fast that Raiden couldn't use blade mode on him then I think we're done here.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Didn't quite say it was but, whatever

Fair enough. But MicCheck's arguments all seem to be centered about how fast Raiden can run. It seems you two are arguing about fairly different things hence why I brought it up.

You mean one of my arguments that Raiden is slower than mach 2, good thing the entire deflecting machine gun fire fiasco has been debunked now.

A QTE is a scripted event though which is therefore canon. That would be like saying the QTEs Kratos performs in God of War are bullshit.

Originally posted by MicCheck
lol your rage is adorable,

My entire statement was that peak humans have deflected machine gun fire, it's not something to write home about.

My entire point is that you don't defend a character like Raiden and use a mediocre feat

It would be like saying Superman is so strong because he lift a bus over his head.

Here's the problem with your power scaling argument, you can clearly use Blade Mode against these enemies in the actual fights, Raiden just never seems to use it when in actual cut scenes, hence making it a gameplay mechanic.

And really, if you think that scientist was so fast that Raiden couldn't use blade mode on him then I think we're done here.

Style over substance fallacy

Comic book "peak humans" are blatantly superhuman, like Captain America who has feats of bullet timing and throwing his shield faster than sound

I'm honestly curious to know how you prove that Raiden wasn't using it horeshit. Though I'm guessing it'll be a "it looked slow so it is slow" 'argument' amirite?

Low showing learn what it is. Well ****, in DB Part 1, Goku gets threatened by rocks and street level weaponry alot, yet has several instances of tanking them and attacks that exceed that

Or the infamous "40 tons" thing. In YYH Kurama struggles with a few hundred pounds holding him down in the Dark Tournament, yet him and various others have feats exceeding that level of strength

Nitpicking a single low showing does not invalidate various other showings

Originally posted by MicCheck
You mean one of my arguments that Raiden is slower than mach 2, good thing the entire deflecting machine gun fire fiasco has been debunked now.

facepalm

Deflecting machine gun fire is a crazy good feat. And your argumetns against it are that comic book "peak-humans" can do it... lol. "Peak-humans" in comics also defeat characters like Hulk and Wonder Woman in combat.

A QTE that Raiden has never used in any cut scene or in any canon material. Most of Kratos' cut scenes involve him manhandling an enemy larger than him, poor comparison.

Look it's really simple, if you show Raiden using blade mode outside of gameplay then you'd have something legit, right now you don't.

Originally posted by ares834
facepalm

Deflecting machine gun fire is a crazy good feat. And your argumetns against it are that comic book "peak-humans" can do it... lol. "Peak-humans" in comics also defeat characters like Hulk and Wonder Woman in combat. Did you think I was talking about real life peak humans? If you did then you should really stop sniffing glue brah

Originally posted by ares834
Fair enough. But MicCheck's arguments all seem to be centered about how fast Raiden can run. It seems you two are arguing about fairly different things hence why I brought it up.

From what I gather he seems like he's trying to say Raiden's attack speed and reactions aren't that fast :hmm

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Style over substance fallacy

Comic book "peak humans" are blatantly superhuman, like Captain America who has feats of bullet timing and throwing his shield faster than sound


Nitpicking a single low showing does not invalidate various other showings
Raiden would beat most comic book book peak humans though

I haven't nit picked anything, you keep insisting that Blade Mode is a legit ability even though the game director said it's a gameplay mechanic, and even though Raiden has never utilized it in any cut scene.

Seriously, it seems you're the one who needs evidence at this point instead of constantly repeating how legit is when he's never used it against any credible enemies like Sam, Sundowner or any of the other Winds, or Armstrong.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
From what I gather he seems like he's trying to say Raiden's attack speed and reactions aren't that fast :hmm

Seems that way. The funny thing is to prove that his reactions are "slow" he compares Raiden to Katana. You know, the character who recently fared well against Wonder Woman in a sword fight...

Originally posted by MicCheck
A QTE that Raiden has never used in any cut scene or in any canon material. Most of Kratos' cut scenes involve him manhandling an enemy larger than him, poor comparison.

Look it's really simple, if you show Raiden using blade mode outside of gameplay then you'd have something legit, right now you don't.

Did you think I was talking about real life peak humans? If you did then you should really stop sniffing glue brah

Except he's used it in QTEs and there's no reason to believe he would hold back on enemies like Armstrong and shit

Plus we use it for the same reason we accept Kain's abilities as legit or FF status effects and shit

The only thing you really have is "I don't like it so therefore it doesn't count"

If you were trying to use comic book peak human feats as a means of debunking Raiden's feats. ahahahahahaha

Try harder, you're as terrible at downplaying MGR as CBR is at downplaying Star Wars

Originally posted by StealthRanger
From what I gather he seems like he's trying to say Raiden's attack speed and reactions aren't that fast :hmm Are they fast in general? Sure, I think Raiden is faster than any peak human comic character and in easily in the superhuman range.

Are they comparable to Bleach characters? Or Naruto characters? Or other video game characters like Dante or Bayonetta? Good lord no...

Trying to argue the legitimacy of blade mode is like arguing that John Marston's Dead Eye ability or Max Payne's bullet time abilities are legit.

Raiden could manhadle most Naruto arcs and solo early Bleach

Depends on the Dante, Raiden stomps the piss out of DMC3 Dante and anything afterwards is more or less up in the air

Bayonetta, never said Raiden could beat her. No way, lol

No, it's as legit as Kain's powers or Final Fantasy spells, which can and have been used in debates here

If I wanted to be a dick, I could pull out Mach 300 Raiden, in which case he'd blitz Ichigo in CQC, but nah, it won't be neccesary

Originally posted by ares834
Seems that way. The funny thing is to prove that his reactions are "slow" he compares Raiden to Katana. You know, the character who recently fared well against Wonder Woman in a sword fight... And you think Katana fighting Wonder Woman is legit? New 52 WW is a bit green but she shouldn't have any trouble with peak humans or street levelers either.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Raiden could manhadle most Naruto arcs and solo early Bleach

Depends on the Dante, Raiden stomps the piss out of DMC3 Dante and anything afterwards is more or less up in the air

Bayonetta, never said Raiden could beat her. No way, lol

No, it's as legit as Kain's powers or Final Fantasy spells, which can and have been used in debates here


If I wanted to be a dick, I could pull out Mach 300 Raiden, in which case he'd blitz Ichigo in CQC, but nah, it won't be neccesary I think Raiden might be able to beat characters up to the Chunin Exams. The speed Rock Lee used against Gaara is faster than Raiden.

DMC3 Dante and Virgil were so fast that they were able to create a barrier that kept out rain just by swinging their swords, that's a hell of a lot more impressive Raiden.

I'm not sure what's Kain's powers are but certain FF powers bs mechanics too, like summoning meteor.

Also, who the hell is mach 300 Raiden?

Pretty sure the rain feat has been debunked several times. DMC3 Dante lacks the destructive capacity to harm Raiden, while Raiden can reduce him to paste with a single attack. The only time DMC3 Dante exceeds Raiden in speed is with Quicksilver, which only lasts a minute or 2

No, meteor and materia is legit

I suggest you lurk more, because you're way out of touch with how debating works

And just for the record ares834, Revengance Raiden should be able to stomp Katana from the New 52 or pre 52.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Pretty sure the rain feat has been debunked several times. DMC3 Dante lacks the destructive capacity to harm Raiden, while Raiden can reduce him to paste with a single attack. The only time DMC3 Dante exceeds Raiden in speed is with Quicksilver, which only lasts a minute or 2

No, meteor and materia is legit

I suggest you lurk more, because you're way out of touch with how debating works

Prove it then, debunk the rain feat or at least point out where you think this rain feat has been debunked. Don't just make claims without providing evidence.

DMC3 Dante lacks the destructive capacity, funny how how his sword is a lot more viable than Raiden's piece of crap sword that Armstrong broke, and last time I checked one of them could regenerate, the other can't.

DMC3 Dante with the rain feat alone is faster than Raiden, and even if Quicksilver was his only option, he'd only need a few seconds to decapitate him.

If anything Raiden may be able to beat Rebooted Dante and that's being generous.

It's funny, I'm the one providing scans, providing links, debunking your argument, you're the one making baseless claims, screaming about QTE and gameplay, and I'm the one out of touch

It's called use the search function and lurk more before digging up discussions that have been done to death

Or to take a page from OBD

"Don't demand scans for every stupid thing, at least do research yourself before bringing up or debunking a feat"

Show me Dante's best destructive feat in DMC3. Because it kind of pales in comparison to Raiden who tossed a 400 to 500 ton mech in the air and cut it apart or who can flip EXCELSUS onto it's ass

Armstrong is obviously just strong as hell now isn't he?

Except DMC3 Dante can't hurt Raiden, who can survive attacks from Armstrong, who punched EXCELSUS to rubble. Meanwhile DMC3 Dante

Raiden can solo Rebooted DmC

No you haven't done shit beyond provide comic book peak human feats to justify your downplaying of MGR and try to do the same faggotry that SW detesters try to do with the EU by trying to disregard Raiden's abilities

Originally posted by StealthRanger
It's called use the search function and lurk more before digging up discussions that have been done to death

Or to take a page from OBD

"Don't demand scans for every stupid thing, at least do research yourself before bringing up or debunking a feat"

Show me Dante's best destructive feat in DMC3. Because it kind of pales in comparison to Raiden who tossed a 400 to 500 ton mech in the air and cut it apart or who can flip EXCELSUS onto it's ass

Armstrong is obviously just strong as hell now isn't he?

Except DMC3 Dante can't hurt Raiden, who can survive attacks from Armstrong, who punched EXCELSUS to rubble. Meanwhile DMC3 Dante

Raiden can solo Rebooted DmC

No you haven't done shit beyond provide comic book peak human feats to justify your downplaying of MGR and try to do the same faggotry that SW detesters try to do with the EU by trying to disregard Raiden's abilities Heh that's hilarious, you make a claim, I ask for proof and you tell me to go find it? Yeah, it's pretty obvious that you're the one out of touch with how debating works.

OBD is a terrible forum, and just for the record I attempted to Google it, typing in DMC3 Dante Virgil Rain Feat Debunked and got nothing.

We've arrived at the point of you being so desperate that you'll actually make things up or send me on some wild goose chase to find something that may or may not exist, poor debating on your part.

Raiden lifting a 400-500 ton mech is a LIFTING Feat, it has nothing to do with his destructive power, or his striking ability.

Armstrong is obviously just that strong, let Armstrong try that with Rebellion or freaking Yamato and he'll get bifurcated like George did. Rebellion was able to collide with Yamato throughout DMC, Yamato was also a sword that was casually capable of slicing buildings in half.

No seriously, show Raiden's sword or Sam's sword doing something similar to that, oh wait, you can't because their swords are garbage.

Anything else? Raiden was able to withstand Armstrongs punches? It's funny, I'm pretty sure blunt force durability doesn't equate to having durability against bladed weapons.

Two words for you, Wonder Woman

Raiden might be able to beat Rebooted DMC, That's it, Dante or Virgil from any of the original games would bifurcate Raiden. Raiden doesn't have the speed to keep or comparable weaponry.

You keep screaming low showings but the funny thing about low showings is that you need to have high showings to offset them, so far you've presented two.

The machine gun fire has been debunked, all you have left is a gameplay mechanic which is just that, a gameplay mechanic that Raiden never coincidentally uses in any of his fights and a bunch of comparisons to Star Wars which btw I have no idea what you're rambling about.

It's never easy being on the losing side of an argument but you should learn how to handle it better, yelling terms like faggotry is only making you look petty at this point.

Hey, OBD is far more credible than a ****er like you will ever be

Raiden threw the god damn thing. Plus you're using your arms in both apllications. Are you honest to god stupid enough to claim that he's incapable of producing a high level of striking power. Plus Armstrong, again, punched EXCELSUS apart, Raiden was, to some degree able to match Armstrong

Btw, there's no such thing as "piercing damage" or "blunt damage". It's called pressure. The only point you'd have is that bladed attacks are far more concentrated, then again, since Raiden's sword couldn't dent Armstrong, you'd have no true point

That and a punch from a Class 5 would cause more PSI than a bullet (a bullet would merely pierce flesh and embed itself in a body, a Class 5 would punch right through)

Bullets and blades are overrated as shit in fiction, commonly shown to be capable of harming characters it logically shouldn't be capable of harming, eg. our best bullets would be ineffective against ****ers with city block durability

Prove Yamato or Rebellion have the destructive capacity to harm Armstrong

Except Raiden does have the higher end showings to do so. The only thing you have to the contrary is "I don't like it so it's wrong"

You never debunked the machine gun fire. You just showed comic book peak humans can deflect them. Plus Raiden is faster than Snake who could dodge a railgun and faster than Grey Fox

By comparisons to Star Wars, you're attempt to disregard Blade Mode is akin to Star Wars detesters trying to disregard the Expanded Universe showings

Your quote that Blade mode being a gameplay mechanic has about as much merit as the quote Darkstar uses from Lucas to disregard Star Wars

No they're not actually, I've owned several people and even moderators on that site.

Sure there are simple things you can look up but I actually made the effort to look up the rain feat being debunked and nothing was found.

Raiden threw the god damn thing, that's not a striking feat or a destructive feat. You're technically using your arms when you lift weights too, doesn't apply to chambering and throwing an actual punch.

Raiden has never shown that he can match Armstrong's punches.

Actually yes, there is such thing as piercing damage or or blunt damage. Wonder Woman is a prime example of this, she can easily take a punch from a high end brick like Superman but can get pierced with swords and arrows.

Raiden was able to kill Armstrong with Sam's sword.

Yamato is capable of cutting an entire building in half with one swing.

At this point you would need to prove that Sam's sword has comparable destructive power. Because the demi gods and demons like the Savior that Dante, Virgil and Neo have fought are leagues above the mechs that Raiden and Sam have fought.

Except for that Raiden has higher end showings...that you've neglected to name.

You said that Raiden was able to deflect machine gun fire, which isn't an impressive feat. I think debunking is a poor choice of works, rather It would be impressive if you were comparing Raiden to Katana or Captain America or some street levelers.

It isn't impressive when you compare Raiden to Dante and Virgil or in the case of this thread, Ichigo.

What was the other thing you mentioned? The use of Blade Mode...you still think it's a legit ability yet you failed to acknowledge several times why Raiden is never shown using it in any cut scenes against opponents like Sam, Sundowner or Armstrong.

Raiden is faster than Snake...Snake was blitzed by Vamp, a guy who can't bullet time. He dodged a rail gun that seemed sub sonic from the look of things.

Gray Fox contrary to popular belief had no impressive speed feats. People like to use the Twin Snakes but it's non canon and has been confirmed non canon by Sean Eyestone.

Originally posted by MicCheck
No they're not actually, I've owned several people and even moderators on that site.

Really, show me, although I'm going to bet that you got beaten by them and was banned for your way of debating. Are you from MvC?



Even then, the rain deflecting thing was a flashback told from third person perspective, the actual fight on top of that tower which name I forget, the rain feat didn't happen during the actual cinematic



Yeah you want to know what throwing resembles?

Surely not slashing motions, not at all, surely /sarcasm

Since both involve swinging your arms for something







Good for him, does he want a medal?



And Raiden's sword can cut apart Metal Gear armor



Being able to harm Armstrong, where Raiden's sword failed to nick him, for starters

Savior is featless beyond what it's size would suggest. Everything other boss in DMC is practically featless. Titles like "godz" and "demigodz" are just titles



Casually deflecting machine gun fire and playing leapfrog with missiles in flight that spring to mind immediately



Or maybe Vamp is actually fast (he did keep up with Raiden, who bullet timed in his MGS 2 self, before he became a cyborg, after all). Perhaps that idea eluded you too? Is powerscaling still alien to you?



Is that seriously your argument? "lul it looked slow so it is slow"

Long distance feats determine speed feats of a character or attack. Short distance timing is irrelevant. Eg. It easier to portray a laser going from earth to the moon in seconds than it is to show it crossing a football field



Show me where it was declared non canon or shut the hell up

Originally posted by StealthRanger


1. Really, show me, although I'm going to bet that you got beaten by them and was banned for your way of debating. Are you from MvC?

2. Even then, the rain deflecting thing was a flashback told from third person perspective, the actual fight on top of that tower which name I forget, the rain feat didn't happen during the actual cinematic


3. Yeah you want to know what throwing resembles?
Surely not slashing motions, not at all, surely /sarcasm
Since both involve swinging your arms for something


4. Good for him, does he want a medal?


5. And Raiden's sword can cut apart Metal Gear armor

Being able to harm Armstrong, where Raiden's sword failed to nick him, for starters

6. Savior is featless beyond what it's size would suggest. Everything other boss in DMC is practically featless. Titles like "godz" and "demigodz" are just titles

7.
Casually deflecting machine gun fire and playing leapfrog with missiles in flight that spring to mind immediately


8. Or maybe Vamp is actually fast (he did keep up with Raiden, who bullet timed in his MGS 2 self, before he became a cyborg, after all). Perhaps that idea eluded you too? Is powerscaling still alien to you?

9.
Is that seriously your argument? "lul it looked slow so it is slow"

Long distance feats determine speed feats of a character or attack. Short distance timing is irrelevant. Eg. It easier to portray a laser going from earth to the moon in seconds than it is to show it crossing a football field


10. Show me where it was declared non canon or shut the hell up

1. No, MvC is more of a joke forum, still preferable to OBD

2. Pretty sure they were different events but I'll have to recheck

3. Once again, weight lifting, throwing etc all involve moving your arms, none of them equate to hitting hard.

For the record I'm sure Raiden can hit fairly hard but you're stating he can hit as hard as Armstrong with no evidence.

4. lul wut? good for who?

5. Metal Gear Ray's are weak. Raiden was able to destroy them with standard missiles and Solidus was able to damage one with a P90 sub machine gun

Not something to brag about.

6. lol Excelsus was featless too, hell most of the Metal Gears were featless and you were just bragging about how Raiden was able to destroy them...at least Savior and most bosses in DMC don't get pwned by portable missiles and sub machine guns like Rays do.

Nice double standard.

7. Not going to keep beating the dead horse but you're using a feat that street levelers can pull off.

Just so you know most street levelers, Wolverine, Batman, Katana, Captain America, would get mauled by Dante, Virgil, Ichigo and even Revengance Raiden got that matter.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=334

Surface to air missiles, which Raiden was hopping on, need to accelerate before reaching their max speed, and most of them are mach 2-5. It's a cool feat but someone like Spiderman could of probably replicated it.


8. No Vamp isn't that fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT1DKC_OjME

Watch at 0:37

It's already been proven in MGS2 That Vamp is unable to bullet time. Vamp is able to hear muscle movements and predict where a gun is pointed before it fires.

When he fought Raiden, Raiden was wearing a skull suit that made it hard to read his muscle movements. Vamp ended up getting partially shot in the face.

It has nothing to do with power scaling, Vamp flat out showed his inability to bullet time and below peak human reaction time.

9. Try again, watch this at exactly 9:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTEndXSr6iY

Snake dodges the first shot, the first shot actually used cinematic timing and fast forwarded the camera. The second shot comes while he's rolling around on the ground and some of the shrapnel hits his Solid Eye before the shot even lands.

No camera tricks, no cinematic timing, all real time, it's a sub sonic projectile.

10. http://www.examiner.com/article/kojipro-explains-twin-snakes-exclusion-from-metal-gear-solid-hd-collection

Unlike you, I actually provide evidence when I make a claim, a trait you should really learn.

Originally posted by MicCheck
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/KatanablocksBullets.jpg

Now you can stop about machine gun fire, it's getting sad at this point

Did you really just use a fictional depiction of a "peak human" to prove Raiden isn't fast?

Lol, are you serious?



That's funny, considering how Kenji Saito said that it's a gameplay mechanic, but they wanted to integrate it into Raiden's character and story as well. In the very link you posted. You've owned yourself.

Anyway Ichigo wins.

He said he wanted to incorporate Zandatsu, not Blade Mode.

Which needs Blade Mode, yes.

Anyway, blocking automatic machine gun fire is not an IRL peak human feat.

I could point you to peak humans who can do things like displace 450,000 tons of snow with a single punch or dodge lightspeed assaults and redirect their opponent's momentum to toss them out of the solar system.

Alright...fair point on the blade mode...

Karate Kid would beat Raiden and Ichigo's asses at the same time, is the point I was getting at.

Originally posted by MicCheck
1. No, MvC is more of a joke forum, still preferable to OBD

What board do you go to then?



No, not really



Except for the fact that by moving your arms you're achieving a similar effect



Other than stopping his attacks, oh gee, I don't know, I really don't know /derp



Raiden, duh. Are you illiterate?



Still doesn't change that DMC bosses are featless and Savior is no more physically powerful than what it's size would suggest

As for excelsus it created a multi-block crater with hit's attacks http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19593#comment174246

Which is a tad above the Savior



You still throw that around as if it discredits them

Cite where I said otherwise or STFU

Also, Wolverine would beat Dante or Vergil (in attrition anyways) and Wolverine's low meta



Why does the fact they need acceleration matter. Are you trying to imply they weren't going fast by the time Raiden started leapfrogging them?



Getting merely grazed on the face after dodging attacks is a commonplace thing in Japanese media for whatever reason, plus he did sort of dodge rather than just get outright shot, still a speed feat



Things have to be seen on screen. Short distance timing is irrelevant as long distance speed feats take precedence and flashy cinematic don't change anything

Or perhaps you want to make the claim that Agent Smith and Neo from the Matrix were only fighting at peak human speeds in their fights because there were no flashy effects despite bullet timing feats during the franchise?

Meh, regardless Ichigo flattens Raiden due to superior destructive capacity and whatnot

I'm not going to quote all of that individually so I'll address a few things

The best weight lifter, the fastest pitcher in the MLB, neither of them would be able to hit as hard as a pro boxer regardless of how fast they can move their arms. Tony Gywnn Jr wouldn't be able to reach anywhere near the PSI that Cain Velasquez can.

Excelsus never performed a multi block busting attack. Excelsus was hidden underground and when it came out it caused the entire air base to collapse.

The Savior is no more powerful than it's size would suggest, neither is Excelsus, and considering the size difference between them, and the fact that the Savior is magically enchanted and wider range energy attacks, it's obviously the bigger threat and you'd have to be mental to think other wise.

Wolverine wouldn't beat Dante or Virgil through attrition, they're regeneration is just as good if not better than his is, they're many leagues faster and stronger, have a wider array of abilites, Yamato or Rebellion could possibly cut through his skeleton and even if it couldn't they could easily knock Wolverine around senseless until they KO him.

Yes, I'm stating that given how close the missiles were to Ray, they had not yet reached max speed when Raiden hopped on them.

No, Vamp got grazed in the face because he couldn't predict Raiden's muscles. He had no problem dodging gun fire earlier against enemies who's muscles he can read.

His speed is below peak human, if he could dodge bullets solely off of reaction then he wouldn't be reliant on a gimmicky ability like being able to read muscle movements. Simple fact is he can't.

They can be seen or heard, we hear the rail gun fire, and we hear it hit the tree behind Snake seconds later without any type of camera or cinematic timing tricks.

Originally posted by MicCheck
I'm not going to quote all of that individually so I'll address a few things

The best weight lifter, the fastest pitcher in the MLB, neither of them would be able to hit as hard as a pro boxer regardless of how fast they can move their arms. Tony Gywnn Jr wouldn't be able to reach anywhere near the PSI that Cain Velasquez can.

All revolve around basic arm movements. Those are humans with no significant disparity between them

You can throw something, the amount of force you produce with attacks shouldn't be that far behind



Except for that crater he caused, which was calced as such



Why does this discredit Excelsus now?



Why does this mean anything?



Destructive Capacity?



Coming from a notorious MGS downplayer :roll:



**** off, Dante and Vergil have never shown the capacity to regenerate missing limbs or heads or anything alone those lines



Sure I guess, still can't kill him, and their stamina is far lower, meaning they'll tire out and die eventually



None of which can kill Wolverine



Cut through his skeleton? Get the **** out of here. Adamantium has tanked attacks from ****ers like Thor, who can deal far more damage than the entire DMC-verse could in a million years

KO him? Call me when Dante and Vergil can dish out more damage than nukes, until then, no dice ******



He did a good job against dodging Raiden's other rounds despite lacking this ability against him, so yea, Vamp is quite fast, even if he didn't outright dodge them



Or he can do both. Maybe that idea escaped you?

Except for that time against Raiden



Really? "we herds teh raelgun, we saw eet on teh screen! Eetz soe slow guiz!!!!11!!!!"

I mean Agents in the Matrix have several feats of bullet timing and yet when they fight we can clearly see them. Does this mean they're fighting at peak humans speeds despite lack of flashy camera effects. No it ****ing doesn't

They're still ****ing fast as hell. Why is MGS exempt from this?

Compelled to post cos Devils.

DMC3 Dante is faster, Raiden is far, far stronger. In the air how the fight would go, and not really for the thread.




Anyhow Mic, I don't recall getting a response from you (before the ban) where you countered the railgun. Seeing as we have the stated joules and can easily assuming the projectiles weight, it's a simple calc to get the speed of what.. whoever dodged.

Originally posted by MicCheck
Can you seriously not break down the post in like 50 sections, it's annoying as hell

No, because I like to maintain a coherent point by point structure

Suck it up if you don't like it



I never said it was exact, only that Raiden's destructive capacity would still be ridiculously high from throwing Excelsus



No, throwing is generally scaled to attack force on various boards, this one included, don't like it? Go cry SpaceBattles or CBR



And this discredits Excelsus how? You realise that CT's calc was based off that, right?



>I don't like it so I'll just ignore it



S'pose tiring against Vergil and Mundus don't count? Hm



IKR, it's not like Wolverine was reduced to a skeleton by a nuke and regened instantly, oh wait a mo, yea he did



Are you trying to imply a sword that can only cut skyscrapers is capable of generating more pressure than a planet busting attack?

Are you like, defective? Or trolling?



1. We've been over this sonny boy, bullets and blades are overrated by authors and portrayed as more powerful than they are and are ignored as low ends (same reason we disregard Whitebeard being killed by musket rounds in favor of tanking attacks from Admiral level opponents among other such shit), again, our best handheld guns would be ineffective against ****ers with city block level durability
2. Just because Wonder Woman is subject to this, doesn't mean every other character is



Then why are we still here :maybe



Who?



Because Captain America doesn't have a major jobber aura or anyth.... oh, but it's not like he's fought Thor or something due to his jobber aur.... oh, oops, or as such dodged lightn..... doh!



Yeah, we don't use low ends

Most debating site, this one included use positive feedback, it's where we take the higher end feats of a character and assume it to be an accurate portrayal of their abilities

If we don't, it just devolves into endless streams of nitpicking. Want to nitpick and establish a true statistical mean? Want to know what we get? City block level skyfathers, small building level DBZ characters, etc

Reason why verses like Marvel, DC, DBZ, YYH, Warhammer 40,000, Star Wars, etc are considered as powerful as they are



Nice attempted handwave to try to 'justify' a double standard

So lack of flashy camera effects is 100% legit in the Matrix, but not MGS eh?

How do you justify this? :maybe

Or, again, will you try to claim Agent Smith and Neo only fight at peak human speeds when they fight because no flashy camera effects

Jesus, this is almost up there with "Star Wars blaster bolts look slow because we can see them on screen" 'logic'

I gave up on that argument when you kept insisting that Raiden was as fast as Solidus based on power scaling even though a guy who can't bullet time blitzed the living bejeezus out of both him and Snake at the same time.

Or ignored the fact that one of rail guns didn't have a specified power output

Or how you kept assuming what type of ammo was being used without any hard evidence.

Hopefully you can see how it became muddled after that.

Speed isn't necessarily everything in a fight, chuckles

Common debating assumptions, unless stated differently from their real life counter parts, we can and will assume it fires similar ammo with similar output to an IRL railgun (we have no reason to believe it doesn't, so why should we)

Kinda stops stupid shit from popping up from degenerates such as yourself

There is no such thing as a IRL Portable rail gun, there's nothing to compare it to, nice job owning yourself 1 sentence

I meant real railgun, dumbass

God job on the strawman, however

You said compare it to a real life counter part, there is no real life counter part. I haven't strawmanned anything, that's exactly what you said.

And the portable rail guns in MGS aren't going to have anywhere near the power output of the larger Navy Esque rail guns so you fail again.

Based on?

Oh I didn't even notice the new wall of crap that you posted, lets see what do we have here

Wolverine being reduced to a skeleton...sure...lets take that instance and ignore the more regular instances of him getting his ass kicked by street levelers...BRILLIANT

Bullets and blades are overrated by authors...well unfortunately you're the only one who feels this way...I don't even have to use Wonder Woman either, standard Amazon swords and spears have injured Superman worse than getting hit by magically enchanted blunt force attacks..Captain Marvel and Black Adam are two characters that come to mind..

A SW Blaster Bolt is actually slow, it's not made out of light, it's made out of plasma..Halo is another example, a lot of Covenant fire arms are slower than ballistics are.

That's all

Based on the fact that when a MGS Rail gun fires the most it does is destroy a tree, or a few crates...

What rail gun IRL has impact like the piss poor MGS Rail guns??

Originally posted by MicCheck
Oh I didn't even notice the new wall of crap that you posted, lets see what do we have here

You seem upset :33



He's also survived other such nifty shit like punches from Hulk and Thor (both of who are, individually, far more destructive than Bleach, MGS and DMC all combined and times'd by 1 sextillion)

Though if you want to play this game, Thanos can be beaten up by gangs of peak human cops and Thor and Heralds of Galactus can be tagged by Spiderman, Captain America and Wolverine

And to quote myself, again:





Indeed



You sure about that chuckles :maybe



Been there and done that, guns are portrayed as far more powerful than they should be, yadda yadda yadda



Because Star Wars blaster bolts have never crossed many kilometers in secon.... *recalls Geonosis, Kashhyk and Hoth*.... oh never mind

:distracted



Hooray?

Originally posted by MicCheck
Based on the fact that when a MGS Rail gun fires the most it does is destroy a tree, or a few crates...

What rail gun IRL has impact like the piss poor MGS Rail guns??

And now we're appealing to lack of collateral damage?

To take the same logic in DBZ for a mo, Piccolo's attack razes an island in the 23rd Bodukai (sp?), in the Android Saga, Cell's attack manages to seriously damage Gohan, there was little collateral damage, yet would you claim an attack that can damage a SSJ2 has far less power than a 23rd Bodukai attack due to lack of collateral damage?

**** no you would not

Originally posted by StealthRanger
And now we're appealing to lack of collateral damage?

To take the same logic in DBZ for a mo, Piccolo's attack razes an island in the 23rd Bodukai (sp?), in the Android Saga, Cell's attack manages to seriously damage Gohan, there was little collateral damage, yet would you claim an attack that can damage a SSJ2 has far less power than a 23rd Bodukai attack due to lack of collateral damage?

**** no you would not Most DBZ Characters if not all can condense their ki attacks, something that MGS characters and their precious rail guns cannot do.

I seem upset, coming from the guy who was yelling terms like faggotry earlier lol

Alright what do we have this time?

Even if he's taken hits from Thor and Hulk, there's more instances of him taking hits from Captain America or other human fighters

It's really simple, anyone with a moderate amount of strength and punching power could KO Wolverine in only a few hits. On a regular basis

But considering you didn't even know who Mr X was, you obviously know jack about the character and are in no position to make any comments

No one uses higher end feats, if Captain America could actually hurt the Hulk with punches, he'd tear most human combatants heads off, that isn't the case.

Consistency is the only thing that matters. If you have 10 fights of Captain America beating Wolverine and one fight of Wolverine beating the Hulk, guess what? The Captain America fights are more consistent.

This is common knowledge but then again, look who I'm talking to

Been there, done that, you're still in the wrong...next

I'm sure there have been instances of blaster bolts moving across long distances but the typical blaster bolts that characters in the movie avoid are slower, plasma based shots and not even close to sub sonic speed.


Anything else? No?

Thank god, I think I'm amount to enter a coma reading more of your post...

You're boring me at this point, you have nothing of value to offer this or any thread and lost the argument a while ago...since everyone agrees Ichigo stomps then that's really the end of the thread

And just so I don't have to read another mind numbing post from you, I saved a nice spot on my ignore list...

no.. you aren't a good debater or intelligent, quite the opposite of that...don't get the wrong idea

Originally posted by MicCheck
I seem upset, coming from the guy who was yelling terms like faggotry earlier lol

Nice "no u" response :maybe



Which is what I was explaining to you earlier, which is where we take the higher end feats of anything and assume it to be an accurate portrayal of their abilities and now nitpicking lowere ends is frowned upon



If they have more power than a nuke, than yeah



Hey now, no need to be upset



Ever heard of outliers? Kinda thinking you haven't =/



Consistency in the sense that if there's several high ends we use those

Low ends will always massively outweigh the high end ones in any fictional medium, comics, anime, manga, video games, etc



Denial isn't just a river in Egypt chuckles :maybe



Which brings me back around to the whole "high ends are taken at greater face value and low ends are just ignored"



Funny that, since I never said Raiden would actually win to begin with



Nice ragequit

Matter of fact, I accept your concession on the basis you ignored most of my posts

When you have something of merit, then we can have a talk and (if you like) a sexy time :maybe

Until then, have fun with dat denial chuckles :3

EDIT: I see you lurking :hmm

I await your response, I know you will go back on your word and respond to me as butthurt ****wads like you normally do :maybe

Originally posted by MicCheck
Based on the fact that when a MGS Rail gun fires the most it does is destroy a tree, or a few crates...

What rail gun IRL has impact like the piss poor MGS Rail guns?? Are you stating that the in-game, very specific joules listing is wrong just because you don't like how the visuals portray it?

And seeing as a 10MJ one is barely above wall level...