Satele Shan vs Darth Plagueis

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WildBantha88
who would win in a battle to the death?

Intrepid37
Satele is out of her league here.

WildBantha88
care to evaluate why you believe this?

Intrepid37
Originally posted by WildBantha88
care to evaluate why you believe this?
Plagueis' feats are just on another level. From disintegrating half a dozen assassins to striking through armored torsos to beating a Sith trained in the exact same style to specifically beat him.

Not to mention Luceno's comment that Plagueis would ''undermine'' TPM Sidious, whose feats are heads and shoulders above Satele's as well.

WildBantha88
I guess im not going to sound very original when I bring up Satele Shan literally crumbling a mountain, but to be fair it is one of the strongest arguments in her favor. In a combative sense she throws around overwhelming Telekinesis quiet casually. Also she is extremely gifted in foresight, and telepathy. Satele may have less "Feats" But the feats she does have speak miles.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by WildBantha88
I guess im not going to sound very original when I bring up Satele Shan literally crumbling a mountain, but to be fair it is one of the strongest arguments in her favor. In a combative sense she throws around overwhelming Telekinesis quiet casually. Also she is extremely gifted in foresight, and telepathy. Satele may have less "Feats" But the feats she does have speak miles.
Satele's destruction of the cliff was after gathered energy from the lightsaber she absorbed prior to unleashing the burst.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Satele's destruction of the cliff was after gathered energy from the lightsaber she absorbed prior to unleashing the burst. Tutaminus is the dissipation of energy not absorption of it and while she did have a few seconds to gather her energy that is all it took. Its not like she could have stuck out her hand in a splet second and crumpled a mountain but a short pause in combat is all it took. On telepathic sense she outclasses plagueis

Intrepid37
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Tutaminus is the dissipation of energy not absorption of it and while she did have a few seconds to gather her energy that is all it took. Its not like she could have stuck out her hand in a splet second and crumpled a mountain but a short pause in combat is all it took. On telepathic sense she outclasses plagueis
I'm not sure what's so difficult. Her power output was increased because of the energy she absorbed from the lightsaber, similar to how Plagueis' best feat with lightning was after absorbing a blaster bolt.

WildBantha88
If you read the book fatal alliance, she is shown casually crushing large droids into balls. Being able to throw around the sort of energy that she did against malgus is not beyond her, if shes given a few seconds to gather her energies. Right now your just actively trying to undermine her power

Intrepid37
Originally posted by WildBantha88
If you read the book fatal alliance, she is shown casually crushing large droids into balls. Being able to throw around the sort of energy that she did against malgus is not beyond her, if shes given a few seconds to gather her energies. Right now your just actively trying to undermine her power
I'm well aware of her feat in Fatal Alliance, but the fact remains that the cliff was never destroyed under her own power.

No one is undermining her power, but Plagueis disintegrating half a dozen armored assassins equipped to deal with Force practitioners while two hearts down and nearly unconscious is quite a bit more impressive than crushing a couple of droids.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm well aware of her feat in Fatal Alliance, but the fact remains that the cliff was never destroyed under her own power.

She did, she didn't have an amp it was on her own power

Q99
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Tutaminus is the dissipation of energy not absorption of it and while she did have a few seconds to gather her energy that is all it took.

Quite often it's absorption. Tutaminus users are known to sometimes use the power after blocking it. Not all cases.

However, the energy of a lightsaber is.... very little next to what she just did anyway. It's not like it could have contributed much.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by WildBantha88
She did, she didn't have an amp it was on her own power
No, it was her own power combined with the energy absorbed from the lightsaber.

ares834
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Satele is out of her league here.

thumb up

Emperordmb
Satele did **** up that cliff side, however a wave from Plagueis disintegrated twelve people.

Nalaniel
Plagueis. He is on another level.

S_W_LeGenD
When following names are in a thread:

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Plagueis
4. Caedus
5. Sidious

It is automatic win for these individuals. All logical reasoning goes out the window. It doesn't matters how impressive the opponents are, they just don't have a chance. roll eyes (sarcastic)

---

IMO, Satele can make this a draw if not better. Much like Plagueis, she is prodigiously talented in the ways of the Force, a great duelist and can even block lightsaber with bare hands.

Intrepid37
lmfao

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nalaniel
Plagueis. He is on another level.

NewGuy01
Plagueis has disintegrated 6 armored Maladians with a force wave, held Palpatine in a chokehold, and overpowered Tenebrous's telekinetic grip. This is better than shattering stone and crushing droids.

Plagueis has turned bones to dust, and set an entire field ablaze with his lightning, which are greater feats of destructive power than anything Satele has accomplished.

Plagueis has punched through armored torsos, smashed skulls with his bare hands, moved at speeds akin to both blaster bolts and streaks of lightning. These are far greater feats of strength an speed than anything Satele has accomplished.

Not even mentioning his immense durability/endurance via his physiology and heart-stunning, midichlorian manipulation, and more-- he outclassed Satele in every fashion.

Lord Stark
Unfortunately Satele didn't live up to her hype, Plagueis dominates. Alas having the female Grand Master kick ass makes far less sense than the shriveled green Grand Master kick ass in the Star Wars Universe.

Nephthys
Satele still kicks ass and is one of the strongest Jedi Masters in the mythos imo.

Intrepid37
I have her on Dooku's level in the Force, and on Kenobi's level with a lightsaber.

Nephthys
Same. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Lord Stark
Not quite Dooku level with the force imo. To me she is roughly the female version of Darth Maul, with slightly better swordsmanship (Kenobi-level).

Nephthys
Crushing Hex droids, shattering blast doors, kamehameha'ing and open palming lightsaber blades are all thing I'd put above Maul.

Intrepid37
Moving that shuttle was pretty good, though.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
Crushing Hex droids, shattering blast doors, kamehameha'ing and open palming lightsaber blades are all thing I'd put above Maul.

Maul has flattened armies, choked out Jedi Masters, pulled massive shuttles, and tanked FL with his body, not to mention surviving being bifurcated. These are all things I put on par with Satele's showings. Maul level isn't anything to sneeze at, especially bolstered with Kenobi's saber mastery.

NewGuy01
I wouldn't put her equivalent to Kenobi as a duelist, nor equivalent to Dooku with the Force. She should be pretty close to either adversary in each competition though.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I wouldn't put her equivalent to Kenobi as a duelist, nor equivalent to Dooku with the Force. She should be pretty close to either adversary in each competition though.

Above or below for both?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Maul has flattened armies, choked out Jedi Masters, pulled massive shuttles, and tanked FL with his body, not to mention surviving being bifurcated. These are all things I put on par with Satele's showings. Maul level isn't anything to sneeze at, especially bolstered with Kenobi's saber mastery.

1. That was with Savages help, correct? Eh. Its ok, but I counted and there were at most about 40 guys in the air iirc. Its about consistent with his other feats.

2. When he choked Kenobi? Wasn't that on a nexus? I mean, its impressive, but Ventress has choked Kenobi. Dude really needs to work on his defenses, ironically.

3. Yes, impressive. But I still rate Satele's feats as higher. Crushing hex droids and shattering a blast door, both done casually, are Dooku level feats imo. And grabbing a lightsaber is a truly incredible feat.

4. Meeh, mediocre. It was a random Nightsister. Surviving bifurcation is cool, but only useful after a fight. wink

Intrepid37
He also crumbled barracks as a teenager.

Ripping apart that very thin and small blast door isn't on Dooku's level, though.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Intrepid37
He also crumbled barracks as a teenager.

Ripping apart that very thin and small blast door isn't on Dooku's level, though.
It is a shatterpoint talent based feat from Satele. Does Dooku even have this talent?

Intrepid37
No.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
1. That was with Savages help, correct? Eh. Its ok, but I counted and there were at most about 40 guys in the air iirc. Its about consistent with his other feats.

Eh still pretty impressive.



He's choked and ragdolled Kenobi three times. Kenobi's defences aren't that bad. He was able to deflect TK from Tyranus.



Not that great. Shaak Ti managed to deflect Grievous' lightsaber on Hypori.

Why are crushing hex droids and shattering blast doors so impressive? Especially when Mace Windu does such things casually as well (inb4 dismissal of Clone Wars feats). I don't think Maul wouldn't be able to do either of those things.



Not really mediocre when he tanks it with his body lol. And not really. He can likely duel way past the pain thresholds most others could; like mini-Sion.

Galan007
Plagueis wins.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
IMO, Satele can make this a draw if not better. Much like Plagueis, she is prodigiously talented in the ways of the Force, a great duelist and can even block lightsaber with bare hands.

Satele is without doubt one of the greatest Jedi who ever lived, but she has no chance against Plagueis. I read somewhere that Darth Plagueis is above TPM Sidious and I don't think that TPM Sidious is much weaker than ROTS Sidious.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Plagueis has disintegrated 6 armored Maladians with a force wave, held Palpatine in a chokehold, and overpowered Tenebrous's telekinetic grip. This is better than shattering stone and crushing droids.

Plagueis has turned bones to dust, and set an entire field ablaze with his lightning, which are greater feats of destructive power than anything Satele has accomplished.

Plagueis has punched through armored torsos, smashed skulls with his bare hands, moved at speeds akin to both blaster bolts and streaks of lightning. These are far greater feats of strength an speed than anything Satele has accomplished.

Not even mentioning his immense durability/endurance via his physiology and heart-stunning, midichlorian manipulation, and more-- he outclassed Satele in every fashion.
Satele is also capable of great destruction and stuff. It is just that we don't have a full picture of her capabilities.

Analogy:

Exal Kressh (Emperor's apprentice) have feats of great destruction under her belt. She once destroyed a gigantic space station with her powers in an attempt to kill Thanaton (try to digest this). In comparison, we haven't seen Emperor go to this much length to destroy the opposition himself but he is more powerful than his apprentice (capable of outperform her feats if he has to but he haven't had a reason to act in this manner based on his lore).

So it is not 'always' wise to assume that X (Char) performed Y (Action) so X (Char) is automatically superior. This logic doesn't sits well with me at least.

Maybe Satele possesses the talent to "all but atomize" defenseless humans too but she isn't likely to perform this action since she is a Jedi. However, we have seen her disintegrating a portion of a large cliff which requires more raw power in comparison to "all but atomize" some defenseless humans (Rock is much harder substance then a biological body), correct me if I am wrong. You may argue that she sucked energy from a lightsaber beforehand and this may have empowered her for a while but why she had to gather power to perform this destructive action?

Speed factor:

Speed wise, Satele was also "unbelievably fast" to other Force-users (I am not joking). So I don't get it that how Plagueis is supposedly faster then her (this is just your assumption).

Strength factor:

Yes, Plagueis have biological edge over Satele since the latter is human. However, no need to underestimate Satele's strength either. At one point: Satele held Malgus at bay with one hand and used another hand to pull down a gigantic tree (Imagine the kind of power needed to pull off this kind of feat). Holding Malgus at bay is something that FEW (Force-users) can pull off strength wise.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh still pretty impressive.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He's choked and ragdolled Kenobi three times. Kenobi's defences aren't that bad. He was able to deflect TK from Tyranus.

With Anakin's help. erm

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not that great. Shaak Ti managed to deflect Grievous' lightsaber on Hypori.

Why are crushing hex droids and shattering blast doors so impressive? Especially when Mace Windu does such things casually as well (inb4 dismissal of Clone Wars feats). I don't think Maul wouldn't be able to do either of those things.

She got thrown off her feet into a wall as I recall. She just blocked it with a quick force shield. Satele caught the thing with her hands and was able to absorb it despite Malgus pushing down as hard as he could on it. The lightsaber was cracking.

Because Hex droids are Jedi-level and blast doors are doors that are built to be extremely strong and resistant. Mace Windu breaking some mass-produced super battle-droids doesn't compare. Although Mace is more or less on Dooku level so um, yeah?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not really mediocre when he tanks it with his body lol. And not really. He can likely duel way past the pain thresholds most others could; like mini-Sion.

He has good pain tolerance. He's a zabrak, give him a freaking medal. A Zabrak Jedi survived and was conscious after Malgus blew holes through his chest with lightning. As I said, mediocre.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not that great. Shaak Ti managed to deflect Grievous' lightsaber on Hypori.
Difference is that Satele pulled off this feat against Malgus which makes her feat very impressive.

Also, can you present evidence of Shaak Ti blocking a lightsaber with bare hands or is it just a misunderstanding of an event?

I recall that some people misunderstood an action of Galen or Shaak Ti with this kind of feat during their confrontation, both never blocked a lightsaber with bare hands during this confrontation.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why are crushing hex droids and shattering blast doors so impressive? Especially when Mace Windu does such things casually as well (inb4 dismissal of Clone Wars feats). I don't think Maul wouldn't be able to do either of those things.
Your focus should be on HOW.

Mace disintegrating a droid with a punch isn't the samething as Satele blowing one apart with a gesture. These are two entirely different feats and quality of droid also matters.

Nephthys
Legend:

WIj7gIDFDe4

4.27

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Intrepid37
No.
So how is that feat not impressive? Can Dooku pull off the 'same' without the prerequisite talent?

Intrepid37
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So how is that feat not impressive? Can Dooku pull off the 'same' without the prerequisite talent?
Dooku's feats are quite a bit more impressive than that.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku's feats are quite a bit more impressive than that.
For example?

Lord Stark
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For example?

Demolishing Sora Bulq, Savage Opress, Ventress, Skywalker, Kenobi, Tholme with his powers.

Nephthys
Satele could do that too imo.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For example?
Wrecking Jedi with TK and lifting a dozen obelisks.

WildBantha88
I don't see how Plagueis out classes Satele...Disintegration with force lightning is impressive but that doesn't say much when Satele is so strong with tutaminus. Ripping armored torsos apart is impressive but lets not forget that DARTH MALGUS being helplessly blasted away was a part of her crumbling a mountain feat. There's not many TK feats that can live up to that. This would most likely end up being a battle of force power and Satele CAN stand up to Darth Plagueis in that arena.

Galan007
Originally posted by Intrepid37
and lifting a dozen obelisks. thumb up The episode made it abundantly clear that Dooku's TK was vastly beyond Savage's. As you said, Dooku effortlessly lifted said obelisks with his TK, while Savage barely managed to lift 2 of them--even when he gained an anger-boost via Dooku's incessant FL+trolling.

This is important because soon thereafter(in the same episode), a relatively calm Savage used his TK to push Anakin and Kenobi's starship off a ledge, with seeming ease...A very uber TK feat in its own right, imo.

ie. Dooku's TK>>>Savage's TK=starship-shoving.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up The episode made it abundantly clear that Dooku's TK was vastly beyond Savage's. As you said, Dooku effortlessly lifted said obelisks with his TK, while Savage barely managed to lift 2 of them--even when he gained an anger-boost via Dooku's incessant FL+trolling.

This is important because soon thereafter(in the same episode), a relatively calm Savage used his TK to push Anakin and Kenobi's starship off a ledge, with seeming ease...A very uber TK feat in its own right, imo.

ie. Dooku's TK>>>Savage's TK=starship-shoving.
As I remember it, Savage managed to levitate the same amount of stones as the Count, just with more difficulty for a shorter amount of time.

Galan007
Nope, he lifted 2. With difficulty.

Intrepid37
You sure about that?

The_Tempest
Galan's correct.

Intrepid37
I guess the distance between Dooku and Maul/Savage as Force wielders is pretty big, then.

carthage
Satele would die in the first five seconds. She would've died in her duel with Malgus if it weren't for PIS. She sucks.

Plagueis SLAUGHTERHOUSE

Galan007
Originally posted by Intrepid37
You sure about that? I just rewatched the scene/episode, so I'm 100% sure. I can't find the whole clip on youtube, though, otherwise I'd provide a link.

It plays out like this:
-Dooku easily lifts all the obelisks several feet upward(there are 12-14 of them.)
-Dooku tells Savage to lift them.
-A calm Savage struggles to get 2 obelisks a few inches off the ground.
-Dooku proceeds to annoy Savage with trolling+FL
-Savage gets pissed and lifts those same 2 obelisks a few feet off the ground, with difficulty.

/scene

S_W_LeGenD
Savage was in the process of learning about the ways of the Force during this time. His feat of lifting obelisks is ignorable.

---

As far as this contest is concerned:



---

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Wrecking Jedi with TK and lifting a dozen obelisks.
Unfortunately, comparisons are not possible in these cases because Satele haven't been depicted in similar scenarios.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Demolishing Sora Bulq, Savage Opress, Ventress, Skywalker, Kenobi, Tholme with his powers.
Dooku have a rich combat history for sure but this isn't sufficient proof of his superiority over Satele. None of these Force-users matched Satele.

Galan007
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Savage was in the process of learning about the ways of the Force during this time. His feat of lifting obelisks is ignorable. Can't agree with this logic. As I said, very soon(same episode) after his TK training session with Dooku, Savage shoved an entire starship off a ledge with seeming ease.

There is no reason to assume Savage's TK-prowess had increased much in between the obelisk-lifting and starship-shoving feats. None. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that his force powa didn't greatly improve in the long run(it certainly did)--I am simply bringing attention to those two feats/scenes exclusively.

Dooku's TK>>>Savage's TK=starship-shoving. Confirmed.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Galan007
There is no reason to assume Savage's TK-prowess had increased much in between the obelisk-lifting and starship-shoving feats. None.

Wtf? Yeah there is. As Legend said, Savage was still in training when that happened. Its highly probable that Savage continued his training after that.

Galan007
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wtf? Yeah there is. As Legend said, Savage was still in training when that happened. Its highly probable that Savage continued his training after that. Lol, absolutely not. Your opinion on the matter is utterly inconsequential without any evidence to back it up. And on that note: you need to rewatch the episode if you still think otherwise. Upon so doing you'll find that no training took place in between the obelisk-lifting and starship-shoving. In fact, the obelisk-lifting marked the end of Savage's training under Dooku, as he was sent on a mission to Toydaria shortly thereafter--and it was on Toydaria that he shoved Kenobi/Anakin's ship.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, absolutely not. Your opinion on the matter is utterly inconsequential without any evidence to back it up. And on that note: you need to rewatch the episode if you still think otherwise. Upon so doing you'll find that no training took place in between the obelisk-lifting and starship-shoving. In fact, the obelisk-lifting marked the end of Savage's training under Dooku, as he was sent on a mission to Toydaria shortly thereafter--and it was on Toydaria that he shoved Kenobi/Anakin's ship.

Lol. We weren't shown any more training, but that hardly suggests there was no more of it. My opinion in the matter is inconsequential, yes. Yours isn't. You made the claim that no more training took place between those scenes. So you need to prove that thats the case. Just because two scenes occur in the same episode doesn't mean that they occurred within a short period of time. Just because we were shown no training after the orbalisk feat, doesn't mean there was none.

Galan007
Lol indeed. I do not have to prove a negative. If no additional training was shown, mentioned, or even alluded between those scenes(and none was), then it is utterly horrendous logic to assume that any such training ambiguously took place off-screen. And while you're correct in saying that just because 2 scenes take place in the same episode doesn't always mean they take place within a short period of time, in this case it's fairly obvious they did.

-scene 1: We see Dooku and Savage's obelisk training(this occurs on Serenno just before dusk.)
-scene 2: cut-to Anakin and Kenobi arriving on Dathomir, fighting a few Dathomirians, and inquiring about Talzin's location(this only takes a few minutes, btw.)
-scene 3: cut-to Dooku sending Savage away on a mission to Toydaria(this occurs on Serenno at dusk.)

So yeah, the obelisk training and Savage's departure to Toydaria definitely took place within a very short duration of time. So unless Savage's last name is "Skywalker", I have a very hard time believing he gained a significant boost during those scenes.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Exal Kressh (Emperor's apprentice) have feats of great destruction under her belt. She once destroyed a gigantic space station with her powers in an attempt to kill Thanaton (try to digest this).

Okay, seriously cut the crap. I own *Blood of the Empire*, their entire battle hardly destroyed the room they were in, and the destruction of the colony was because Exal destabilized the core by damaging a Verbobrain Cluster, which isn't nearly as impressive as you make it out to be..

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So it is not 'always' wise to assume that X (Char) performed Y (Action) so X (Char) is automatically superior. This logic doesn't sits well with me at least.

But you also can't base an entire argument on sheer speculation and then persist that we are the insanely biased ones.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD However, we have seen her disintegrating a portion of a large cliff which requires more raw power in comparison to "all but atomize" some defenseless humans (Rock is much harder substance then a biological body), correct me if I am wrong.

She didn't disintegrate anything. Disintegration is the act of reducing an object to sizes of a molecular level. The impact of her wave shattered the cliff side and collapsed it, which is impressive, but it's also far cry from reducing it to dust.

Not to mention that these defenseless humans were heavily armored with materials much harder than stone.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You may argue that she sucked energy from a lightsaber beforehand and this may have empowered her for a while but why she had to gather power to perform this destructive action?

I don't understand the second half of your question, but if you're implying the lightsaber did not have a large effect--Think again.

The energy of a single blaster bolt, when converted to Force Lightning, was great enough to turn a trooper's bones to dust. Imagine how much energy can be absorbed from a constantly-sustained energy blade.

Hell, I'll do it for you.

Look at Neeja Halycon. He who had absolutely no power of his own to perform Telekinetic feats was able to replicate Satele's feat almost exactly after absorbing the lightsaber blade of his adversary.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Speed factor:

Speed wise, Satele was also "unbelievably fast" to other Force-users (I am not joking). So I don't get it that how Plagueis is supposedly faster then her (this is just your assumption).

That's not an incredibly amazing speed feat for Satele, you realize. Plagueis outrunning blaster bolts is definitely superior.

Even if you want to say it isn't, the fact that Plagueis is on Palpatine's own speed tier should be enough regardless. Palpatine was so fast that three celebrated swordsmen amongst the Jedi Council's best couldn't even perceive his movements.

By comparison, Plagueis has a wealth of speed feats that all outstrip Satele's singular accolade. Your saying that Satele is in Plagueis's speed class is the assumption here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Strength factor:

Yes, Plagueis have biological edge over Satele since the latter is human. However, no need to underestimate Satele's strength either. At one point: Satele held Malgus at bay with one hand and used another hand to pull down a gigantic tree (Imagine the kind of power needed to pull off this kind of feat). Holding Malgus at bay is something that FEW (Force-users) can pull off strength wise.

This is true, her own strength is nothing to scoff at--However, Plagueis's strength feats are also considerably better than Malgus's own.

DarthAnt66
If I may ask, what is so special about Satele's feat destroying a door? The feat I believe can be easily replicated by Dooku...the door wasn't even that big:
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/shan10.jpg

Q99
On biological edges, he's a Muun. Muuns aren't noted for exceptional ability, and are skinnier than humans. It wouldn't surprise me if, while probably lighter weight than humans, humans normally had the muscle edge.

Emperordmb
Muun's do have three hearts, two of which can be consciously controlled. They are taller and thus hold an edge in leverage, and Plagueis's physical feats still outstrip Satele's.

Q99
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Muun's do have three hearts, two of which can be consciously controlled. They are taller and thus hold an edge in leverage, and Plagueis's physical feats still outstrip Satele's.

Taller, so leverage, but in return a larger target, and still spindlier.

His species isn't an advantage, is my point.

Emperordmb
the heart thing is a major advantage though, especially the way Plagueis exploits such an advantage.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Okay, seriously cut the crap. I own *Blood of the Empire*, their entire battle hardly destroyed the room they were in, and the destruction of the colony was because Exal destabilized the core by damaging a Verbobrain Cluster, which isn't nearly as impressive as you make it out to be..
I have this comic as well and I have keen observation.

The first phase of the duel between Teneb Kel (Thanaton) and Exal Kressh resulted in great damage to the chamber where it took place, very violent. Now the chamber design is such that I am not sure if it would make sense to collapse it in the manner you deem fit or Kressh would have attempted such a thing in her presence. However, Kressh literally bombarded the chamber with her powers which forced Thanaton to flee from the place and jump on a train.

As far as damaging the core is concerned, it makes sense. To pull apart a gigantic space station the size of a mega-city, it would be logical to focus on its vulnerable points. Otherwise, it is too tedious of a task.

http://i62.tinypic.com/3339u8h.png

The core of such an enormous space station is also expected to be gigantic, protected and linked to various parts of it in a span of miles with various pipes and such. This picture does not captures the enormity of the situation, Exal Kressh destabilized and destroyed the entire core (an entire system) which resulted in the destruction of the gigantic space station itself. This is certainly an incredible display of power since the main core will not be unprotected either.

Keep in mind that the comic shows you pictures of events, it doesn't shows you every bit of the events. My original statement is absolutely correct.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But you also can't base an entire argument on sheer speculation and then persist that we are the insanely biased ones.
Analogy:-

Count Dooku lifted some obelisks with his TK powers once. Lets assume that Dooku is character (X) and his obelisk(s) lifting feat is action (Y).

Now since character (X) performed action (Y), should we assume that character (X) is superior to Sith Emperor? We haven't seen Sith Emperor performing this kind of feat but do you think he cannot?

This is the point that I am trying to make.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
She didn't disintegrate anything. Disintegration is the act of reducing an object to sizes of a molecular level. The impact of her wave shattered the cliff side and collapsed it, which is impressive, but it's also far cry from reducing it to dust.
Definition(s) of disintegration:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disintegrate

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disintegrate

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/disintegration

You think that I don't know a meaning of a word? Don't ever try to mistakenly assume that I lack in education aspect. Educate yourself instead.

This is an example of disintegration:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2n16jo3.png

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not to mention that these defenseless humans were heavily armored with materials much harder than stone.
The rocky formation which Satele Shan destroyed would have weighed hundreds of tons. Disintegrating such a thing is even more impressive then collapsing a small building.

The power to "all but atomize" normal humans may require lot of HEAT rather then RAW POWER.

Plagueis likely unleashed extremely heated waves of energies that 'all but atomized' some assassins. This feat seems to be very different from Satele's feat of disintegrating a cliff in technical context but similar to what Satele did to some droids (exploded some droids in to fireballs from within).



Read this: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/but-not-simpler/2013/09/12/excerpts-from-the-mad-scientists-handbook-so-youre-ready-to-vaporize-a-human/

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't understand the second half of your question, but if you're implying the lightsaber did not have a large effect--Think again.

The energy of a single blaster bolt, when converted to Force Lightning, was great enough to turn a trooper's bones to dust. Imagine how much energy can be absorbed from a constantly-sustained energy blade.

Hell, I'll do it for you.

Look at Neeja Halycon. He who had absolutely no power of his own to perform Telekinetic feats was able to replicate Satele's feat almost exactly after absorbing the lightsaber blade of his adversary.
Interesting...

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's not an incredibly amazing speed feat for Satele, you realize. Plagueis outrunning blaster bolts is definitely superior.
You do realize that Force-users can anticipate incoming blaster bolts in advance and then react to them (counter them with their lightsaber)?

And if somebody is unbelievably fast to another Force-user, I don't see what gets much better then this.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if you want to say it isn't, the fact that Plagueis is on Palpatine's own speed tier should be enough regardless. Palpatine was so fast that three celebrated swordsmen amongst the Jedi Council's best couldn't even perceive his movements.

By comparison, Plagueis has a wealth of speed feats that all outstrip Satele's singular accolade. Your saying that Satele is in Plagueis's speed class is the assumption here.
Nothing implies that Satele is slow in comparison to these Sith.

Did you forget that she physically dodged a lightsaber blow from Malgus when cornered? Maybe it is not easy to depict the speed of this action in animated form while the animation have been made for the audience to digest and understand.

Those celebrated swordsmen hold no candle to Satele either.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is true, her own strength is nothing to scoff at--However, Plagueis's strength feats are also considerably better than Malgus's own.
You serious?

Malgus is an absolute brute in both physical and power respects. He could crack marble with a single blow, lift and crush other Force-users to death with bare hands and more.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have this comic as well and I have keen observation.

As far as damaging the core is concerned, it makes sense. To pull apart a gigantic space station the size of a mega-city, it would be logical to focus on its vulnerable points. Otherwise, it is too tedious of a task.

Yes, it is. I'm simply pointing out that you attempted to make it sound as if she simply wrecked the entire colony with her powers, which is factually not true.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Analogy:-

Count Dooku lifted some obelisks with his TK powers once. Lets assume that Dooku is character (X) and his obelisk(s) lifting feat is action (Y).

Now since character (X) performed action (Y), should we assume that character (X) is superior to Sith Emperor? We haven't seen Sith Emperor performing this kind of feat but do you think he cannot?

This is the point that I am trying to make.

If Vitiate didn't have telekinetic feats good enough to compete, then that definitely would be true. However, we've seen him blow apart an astromech droid into millions of pieces, which definitely displays power to be reckoned with.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You think that I don't know a meaning of a word? Don't ever try to mistakenly assume that I lack in education aspect. Educate yourself instead.

Being a snob will not help your argument.

But yes, in strict definition of the word, *disintegration* you would be correct. However, in the context of this debate you know that what we're referring to in Plagueis's case is the sheer atomization of armored Maladians. He blasted them into pieces of molecular size, which actually more closely resembles Vitiate's feat against Revan's astromech droid than Satele crushing that cliff-side.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD The rocky formation which Satele Shan destroyed would have weighed hundreds of tons. Disintegrating such a thing is even more impressive then collapsing a small building.

Yes, it is definitely more impressive than that. I still do not see it as superior to practically blasting people into dust with the impact of a Force Wave, though, especially when Satele's power was greatly amplified from the energies of a lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Interesting...

It is, actually. To be entirely honest Satele's feat is one of the best feats of absorption in the mythos, really.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You do realize that Force-users can anticipate incoming blaster bolts in advance and then react to them (counter them with their lightsaber)?

Perhaps I should be more specific with this description: 11-4D is a droid who's sensors work at magnificent speeds, allowing it to perceive and evade blaster bolts in combat. It couldn't even pick up Plagueis's speed as anything more than a blur, much less react to it.

11-4D's receptors were faster than many Jedi's precognition, and the fact that it couldn't even see Plagueis is an astounding feat of speed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Those celebrated swordsmen hold no candle to Satele either.

In terms of power and mastery of the Force? You are definitely right. In terms of sheer ability as swordsmen and level of speed? I'd be inclined to strongly disagree.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You serious?

Malgus is an absolute brute in both physical and power respects. He could crack marble with a single blow, lift and crush other Force-users to death with bare hands and more.

So is Plagueis. I am well aware that Malgus has cracked marble tables, and squeezed people to death--Not to mention kicking Zallow 15 meters--His strength is insane.

However, Plagueis is just as insane. His punches have punched clean through *armored* torsos, he's simultaneously sent an entire group of Maladians flying and slamming into walls with lethal force, etc. etc.

I really don't see Satele winning this, really.

DarthAnt66
You take offense to easily. He was clearly not meaning to insult you, but you act as if he did. And then you mistakenly insult him in return. roll eyes (sarcastic)


thumb up

ares834
facepalm

Some of the stretching in this this thread.

Christ.

DarthAnt66
Well, I decided to find out how big of her blast was myself, so here's my work:
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/projec10.jpg
In total, I discovered the blast was about 12 feet tall, 13 feet wide, and destroyed 6 feet worth of rocks. The total volume would be 936 feet of probably Metamorphic rock.

DarthAnt66
Also, just want to add this (since it won't let me edit the post above)

The mountain itself looks granite (ex of granite mountain):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Yosemite_20_bg_090404.jpg/800px-Yosemite_20_bg_090404.jpg

Granite weighs about 13 pounds (average) but can go up to 30 pounds per square foot. So the weight of what was destroyed should be about 12,000 pounds (average) to 28,000 pounds (maximum) or around 6 tons (average) to 14 tons (maximum), correct?

I'm not finding my math to reach up to LeGenD's expectations of hundreds of tons (which I think he was using as an hyperbole, if not perhaps he can "educate" himself more.), but 6 to 14 tons of destruction sounds very reasonable and impressive to me, and I guarantee if the rock was thicker, her blast would still cut through for numerous more meters, perhaps resulting in LeGenD's "hundreds of tons" claim, however the mountain itself was not that thick.

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