Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

round 1: no water near by

round 2: cant go past ssj1

I've always wondered, what does HST actually mean?

Ah, I actually just looked it up.

Anyway, Goku base form shits on this thread, obviously. This isn't even a fair thread, Kid Goku could dodge light, and moon/small planet bust.

Not to mention that Kid Buu could destroy entire galaxies. Also, going by anime, anyone SSJ3 Goku level can universe/reality+ bust.

Base form pre DBZ Goku shits on HST.

wow, WHOLE HST, everyone? all hax included... i mean it depends on how easy he starts off, many people can 1 shot him, sugar and doffy body control combo?

Depends on Goku's mindset.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I've always wondered, what does HST actually mean?

Holy Shonen Trinity. Anyways, Goku should win unless he falls into some hax.

Goku solos the HST

Even Saiyan Saga Goku can solo HST...

Originally posted by Luffygear4
wow, WHOLE HST, everyone? all hax included... i mean it depends on how easy he starts off, many people can 1 shot him, sugar and doffy body control combo?

wut

Goku solo's during Saiyan saga.

Fight me irl.

nonono, he can solo easily, but he need to do so seriously. he can get haxed out..

Originally posted by Luffygear4
nonono, he can solo easily, but he need to do so seriously. he can get haxed out..

Pfft, by what?

Any hax from these verses can be broken out of with excessive raw force, something Goku has in spades. Even seals, Tsukiyomi and dust style from Naruto can ALL be easily waved aside or broken out of with levels of strength and energy that 10% of base Saiyan saga Goku scoffs at.

Again, Goku shits on thread casually.

is goku blood lusted because unless he blitzes and blows all of them up at once any illusion based characters can prove to be a problem for him.... i still think he wins though.

Originally posted by yungz22
is goku blood lusted because unless he blitzes and blows all of them up at once any illusion based characters can prove to be a problem for him.... i still think he wins though.

How so?

Vegeta resisted Babidi's mind control with sheer will power, and that was complete mind control, which is equivalent to the strongest Genjutsu in Naruto, Shisui's mangekyo Sharingan.

Not to mention that literally ANY genjutsu in Naruto can be broken out of with sheer excessive chakra output. Even Tsukiyomi was broken out of by Sasuke using CS2. No one in Naruto could exert a fraction of Goku's energy, so he could break out of any genjutsu like it was nothing, Tsukiyomi included.

Vegeta was never actuallly under babidi's control. Also its not complete hypnosis becase the one who is inflicted by it is totally aware of their surroundings.

Tsukuyomi was broken out of because of sasukes sharingan not the cs2. Sasuke trained his eyes to their upmost potential in order to develop the ability to break out of it.

Tsukuyomi lasts for a second i dont see goku breaking out of it

Koto amatsukami is different because the use is unaware that they are being controlled. It along with izanami are absolute. If itachi didnt explain how to get out of izanami kabuto would probably still be under its control.

Who ****ing cares? Goku nukes the HST

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Who ****ing cares? Goku nukes the HST


Hey were tryna make this interesting here lol we all know goku could just blow themup immediately but thats not in his nature. Since hes not bloodlusted the HST now have an extremely small chance of victory.... Strength is not the knly thing that wins fights

Good thing Goku also has speed, durability, mobility and destructive capacity over the HST by a colossal margain

When you have that? Skill, tactics, planning, numbers? Irrelevant

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Good thing Goku also has speed, durability, mobility and destructive capacity over the HST by a colossal margain

When you have that? Skill, tactics, planning, numbers? Irrelevant


This is true

Originally posted by chasedown
Vegeta was never actuallly under babidi's control. Also its not complete hypnosis becase the one who is inflicted by it is totally aware of their surroundings.

Tsukuyomi was broken out of because of sasukes sharingan not the cs2. Sasuke trained his eyes to their upmost potential in order to develop the ability to break out of it.

Tsukuyomi lasts for a second i dont see goku breaking out of it

Koto amatsukami is different because the use is unaware that they are being controlled. It along with izanami are absolute. If itachi didnt explain how to get out of izanami kabuto would probably still be under its control.

Then why did Goku specifically criticize him for "letting yourself be controlled by Babidi"? Exactly. It's actually changing his personality and mindset, not just controlling it. Something no one in all of Naruto can do. Yet Vegeta could still resist it completely.

Then why did Sasuke need to go CS2 to break out of it? If he didn't need to be stronger, then why did he need to become stronger? lol

In reality, but not to the person using it or the person being affected by it. Meaning Goku can easily shit out of it whenever he feels like it.

No one that doesn't have ki sense. Genjutsu controls the targets chakra flow and in doing so, their five sense. Goku has not only way too much ki for anyone to control a fraction of(from Naruto), but also a sixth sense, that genjutsu can't demonstrably affect. Izanami can be broken out of by doing something different, or by accepting yourself. Goku has never had a problem doing either of those things without explanations.

Not to mention that even if it took him a minute to break Izanami, he would be tanking everything casually while standing there, considering him as SSJ3 in the Buu saga throws around and tanks universe/reality busting attacks like he doesn't feel them.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Depends on Goku's mindset.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Then why did Goku specifically criticize him for "letting yourself be controlled by Babidi"? Exactly. It's actually changing his personality and mindset, not just controlling it. Something no one in all of Naruto can do. Yet Vegeta could still resist it completely.

Then why did Sasuke need to go CS2 to break out of it? If he didn't need to be stronger, then why did he need to become stronger? lol

In reality, but not to the person using it or the person being affected by it. Meaning Goku can easily shit out of it whenever he feels like it.

No one that doesn't have ki sense. Genjutsu controls the targets chakra flow and in doing so, their five sense. Goku has not only way too much ki for anyone to control a fraction of(from Naruto), but also a sixth sense, that genjutsu can't demonstrably affect. Izanami can be broken out of by doing something different, or by accepting yourself. Goku has never had a problem doing either of those things without explanations.

Not to mention that even if it took him a minute to break Izanami, he would be tanking everything casually while standing there, considering him as SSJ3 in the Buu saga throws around and tanks universe/reality busting attacks like he doesn't feel them.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-393-19/naruto/chapter-388.html sasuke broke out because of his sharingan

The point is goku wouldnt even realize he is in an illusion. Goku is strong but not necessarily smart im not sure he would have trouble figuring out the rules behind izanami he would jus continue the loop over and over again. Goku never having experienced this type of illusion would be a problem for him. Hes a brawler doesnt necessarily have great analytical skills

Also tsyukuyomi does have the power to put a very large amount of mental strain on goku. And it only lasts 1 second So illusion techs like that would be a viable option against goku.


But gokus mindset is the key if he isnt bloodlusted they could prove to pesky and cause him some annoying probs.

Goku would get rid of Izanami in no time, it's really a non-factor.

Yeah Izanami is useless here. Now Aizen's broken ass shikai or someone throwing Sugar at him on the other hand could cause some problems.

However none of that's a problem if he's serious from the get-go.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Yeah Izanami is useless here. Now Aizen's broken ass shikai or someone throwing Sugar at him on the other hand could cause some problems.

However none of that's a problem if he's serious from the get-go.

Yea now that i think about it kyoka would be gokus biggest problem if were talking illusions here goku wouldnt even realize hes in an illusion...... Goku still wins because they cant physically hurt him most they could do is kamui him somewhere or give him a very bad headache

Originally posted by chasedown
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-393-19/naruto/chapter-388.html sasuke broke out because of his sharingan

The point is goku wouldnt even realize he is in an illusion. Goku is strong but not necessarily smart im not sure he would have trouble figuring out the rules behind izanami he would jus continue the loop over and over again. Goku never having experienced this type of illusion would be a problem for him. Hes a brawler doesnt necessarily have great analytical skills

Also tsyukuyomi does have the power to put a very large amount of mental strain on goku. And it only lasts 1 second So illusion techs like that would be a viable option against goku.


But gokus mindset is the key if he isnt bloodlusted they could prove to pesky and cause him some annoying probs.

http://i19.mangapanda.com/naruto/388/naruto-1569317.jpg

But WHAT did Sasuke have to use to break out of it? CS2, just like I said.

Except, again, Goku accepts reality, and has never had a problem doing so. He knows that he's a simple Saiyan from Earth, meaning that Izanami would instantly become undone if used against him, IF it even effected him at all.

If he didn't break out of it, which he instantly could. "In reality, but not to the person using it or the person being affected by it. Meaning Goku can easily shit out of it whenever he feels like it."

Which would still do nothing to him, as he still has ki sense, which allows him to instantly realize he's under an illusion, that he can break out of instantly by yelling a bit.

Originally posted by chasedown
Yea now that i think about it kyoka would be gokus biggest problem if were talking illusions here goku wouldnt even realize hes in an illusion...... Goku still wins because they cant physically hurt him most they could do is kamui him somewhere or give him a very bad headache

Except you only have to touch Kyoka Suigetsu to negate its effect. Goku has ki sense, which Aizen can't control, meaning Goku grabs it instantly and breaks it off in Aizen's arse-hole.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
http://i19.mangapanda.com/naruto/388/naruto-1569317.jpg

But WHAT did Sasuke have to use to break out of it? CS2, just like I said.

Except, again, Goku accepts reality, and has never had a problem doing so. He knows that he's a simple Saiyan from Earth, meaning that Izanami would instantly become undone if used against him, IF it even effected him at all.

If he didn't break out of it, which he instantly could. "In reality, but not to the person using it or the person being affected by it. Meaning Goku can easily shit out of it whenever he feels like it."

Which would still do nothing to him, as he still has ki sense, which allows him to instantly realize he's under an illusion, that he can break out of instantly by yelling a bit.


The cs2 was part of the illusion notice when the illusion was broken sasuke was still in base form.....and aizen can make goku miss with kyoka its complete hypnosis he can change gokus perception of energy and he can make himself appear to be in different places on the battlefield and create scenarios goku would think are real... Also aizen doesnt have ki so ki sensing wouldnt work...

Ki is more similar to chakra

Reatsu is totally different


In the end im not arguing that aizen could beat him Goku would still win because aizen has no way to hurt him he can only trap him in illusions and in the end goku could just blow them all up. Its just if goku isnt bloodlusted the fight would be a little longer

Goku can lose. It's very possible with the hax the HST have. However, assuming that Goku is serious, even Saiyan Saga Goku can make short work of every single HST character. He has like planetary level destructive capacity and would also be massively faster than all of them except for maybe Kizaru and Gai.

Goku should take a mental note to just oneshot Sugar and Perona off the bat. While each of the HSt has a variety of hax abilities, those two appear to have the most troublesome ones in terms of dealing with Goku.

Originally posted by chasedown
The cs2 was part of the illusion notice when the illusion was broken sasuke was still in base form.....and aizen can make goku miss with kyoka its complete hypnosis he can change gokus perception of energy and he can make himself appear to be in different places on the battlefield and create scenarios goku would think are real... Also aizen doesnt have ki so ki sensing wouldnt work...

Ki is more similar to chakra

Reatsu is totally different


In the end im not arguing that aizen could beat him Goku would still win because aizen has no way to hurt him he can only trap him in illusions and in the end goku could just blow them all up. Its just if goku isnt bloodlusted the fight would be a little longer

If you read the manga, you'd see his curse mark receding.

http://i4.mangapanda.com/naruto/388/naruto-1569319.jpg

You can clearly see the curse mark still on his face and arm in the bottom right panel. He went out of it, but he still needed to use it in the first place. Not to mention that Zetsu's statement supports it, that a novice with a shuriken can lose to an expert with a stone, by insinuating that Sasuke was strong enough to force out of it. Sure the sharingan definitely helped, but he still made up for lack of mangekyo with Chakra, and Goku could just as easily make up for lack of sharingan with ki.

How's that? What basis do you have to make that claim? Aizen can't control your sense of spiritual pressure, but can now control ki sense too? He's never demonstrated that, and you giving him abilities proves you to be a retarded fanboy.

Why's that? Ki has allowed Goku and DBZ characters to fight and interact with ghosts before. If anything, it's more like Reiatsu than chakra. Not to mention that ki is VASTLY stronger than both of them put together, as even low tier DBZ characters a FTL and planet busters.

In the end, again, Goku would catch Kyoka suigetsu since he can since ki, and impale Aizen's butthole with it.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Goku can lose. It's very possible with the hax the HST have. However, assuming that Goku is serious, even Saiyan Saga Goku can make short work of every single HST character. He has like planetary level destructive capacity and would also be massively faster than all of them except for maybe Kizaru and Gai.

How? Goku can literally either tank, casually break free from, or shrug off/repel ANY hax abilities in the HST like it's nothing.

No, Saiyan saga Vegeta had planet busting power, Kid Buu had Galaxy level, and Bills had universe level destructive power, both of whom Goku defeated, or fought on par with. Also, do I really need to shit on that Kizaru/Gai argument by proving Goku to be millions of times FTL, while neither of them are even LS?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How? Goku can literally either tank, casually break free from, or shrug off/repel ANY hax abilities in the HST like it's nothing.

No, Saiyan saga Vegeta had planet busting power, Kid Buu had Galaxy level, and Bills had universe level destructive power, both of whom Goku defeated, or fought on par with. Also, do I really need to shit on that Kizaru/Gai argument by proving Goku to be millions of times FTL, while neither of them are even LS? I was only talking about Saiyan Saga Goku in my post. I am well aware of EoS Goku's speed and destructive capacity being well above what I stated in my post.

Goku can't tanl hax like that. He's not a BLEACH character where higher reiatsu cancels out hax. If, for example, he gets stuck in Ope Ope no Mi or Crocodile dehydrates him, he's done for.

Also, how is Kizaru not light speed when his Logia is a light type?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
If you read the manga, you'd see his curse mark receding.

http://i4.mangapanda.com/naruto/388/naruto-1569319.jpg

You can clearly see the curse mark still on his face and arm in the bottom right panel. He went out of it, but he still needed to use it in the first place. Not to mention that Zetsu's statement supports it, that a novice with a shuriken can lose to an expert with a stone, by insinuating that Sasuke was strong enough to force out of it. Sure the sharingan definitely helped, but he still made up for lack of mangekyo with Chakra, and Goku could just as easily make up for lack of sharingan with ki.

How's that? What basis do you have to make that claim? Aizen can't control your sense of spiritual pressure, but can now control ki sense too? He's never demonstrated that, and you giving him abilities proves you to be a retarded fanboy.

Why's that? Ki has allowed Goku and DBZ characters to fight and interact with ghosts before. If anything, it's more like Reiatsu than chakra. Not to mention that ki is VASTLY stronger than both of them put together, as even low tier DBZ characters a FTL and planet busters.

In the end, again, Goku would catch Kyoka suigetsu since he can since ki, and impale Aizen's butthole with it.

Dude the curse mark was apart of the illusion as you can see once the illusions broken its as if he never moved that whole interaction happened within their minds sasuke never activated his curse mark. The panel you just showed is the illusion breaking up.

Aizen's kyoka suigetsu manipulate opponents perception senses.

When goku senses another persons energy he always says stuff like " i can FEEL his energy" isnt the sense of feel a sense

http://www.mangapanda.com/94-625-13/bleach/chapter-171.html


Reatsu and ki are not the same thing. Has goku's ki ever made someone cease to exist? No

Originally posted by chasedown
Dude the curse mark was apart of the illusion as you can see once the illusions broken its as if he never moved that whole interaction happened within their minds sasuke never activated his curse mark. The panel you just showed is the illusion breaking up.

Aizen's kyoka suigetsu manipulate opponents perception senses.

When goku senses another persons energy he always says stuff like " i can FEEL his energy" isnt the sense of feel a sense

http://www.mangapanda.com/94-625-13/bleach/chapter-171.html


Reatsu and ki are not the same thing. Has goku's ki ever made someone cease to exist? No

Again, you failed to see the scan I posted.

You just posted a scan disproving your own statement. Again, he can only control the five senses, taste, smell, touch, sight, and hearing. Not ki sense.

No, Goku says he can SENSE someone's energy. Even Roshi explained that it's a sixth sense in Dragon Ball.

Has anyone in Bleach's? No. Aizen has vaporized people by being so much stronger than them that they die, but Goku has overpowered universe busting entities with his sheer ki. Goku. Shits. On. The. HST. And casually, at that.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Again, you failed to see the scan I posted.

You just posted a scan disproving your own statement. Again, he can only control the five senses, taste, smell, touch, sight, and hearing. Not ki sense.

No, Goku says he can SENSE someone's energy. Even Roshi explained that it's a sixth sense in Dragon Ball.

Has anyone in Bleach's? No. Aizen has vaporized people by being so much stronger than them that they die, but Goku has overpowered universe busting entities with his sheer ki. Goku. Shits. On. The. HST. And casually, at that.


the person was vaporized because of aizen's reatsu. aizen stated it himself.


If aizen's kyoka was that easy to break out of how come literally nobody has ever seen through it by just sensing him?

and again Ki and reatsu are not the same. sure ki can blow somebody away when goku or somebody is charging up but also Ki has never suffocated their opponents brought them to their knees or literally made them cease to exist.

after someone in dbz is done charging up their opponents always can still fight.

Originally posted by chasedown
the person was vaporized because of aizen's reatsu. aizen stated it himself.


If aizen's kyoka was that easy to break out of how come literally nobody has ever seen through it by just sensing him?

and again Ki and reatsu are not the same. sure ki can blow somebody away when goku or somebody is charging up but also Ki has never suffocated their opponents brought them to their knees or literally made them cease to exist.

after someone in dbz is done charging up their opponents always can still fight.

Exactly. He never "erased someone from existence" though. Also, that only works on someone vastly weaker than him. Goku is vastly stronger, so Aizen would be the one who got vaporized.

Does anyone in Bleach have ki sense? Or the ability to sense someone from a universe away?

So you're telling me that Cell has never used his mere ki aura to cause a huge wrestler to be pinned to the ground from what he perceived as increased gravity? Just like Ichigo. Ichigo was on "a different plane of power" than Aizen, so he should have vaporize him, right? No, he concealed his power because he didn't want to vaporize him instantly. No one in Bleach has ever made anyone cease to exist, idiot.

Because making someone evaporate from your mere presence is boring. Akira Toriyama didn't make that happen because he's not interested in making shitty predictable fights. It doesn't matter though, because you need to generate infinitely more power to blow up a universe than to destroy a hill.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Exactly. He never "erased someone from existence" though. Also, that only works on someone vastly weaker than him. Goku is vastly stronger, so Aizen would be the one who got vaporized.

Does anyone in Bleach have ki sense? Or the ability to sense someone from a universe away?

So you're telling me that Cell has never used his mere ki aura to cause a huge wrestler to be pinned to the ground from what he perceived as increased gravity? Just like Ichigo. Ichigo was on "a different plane of power" than Aizen, so he should have vaporize him, right? No, he concealed his power because he didn't want to vaporize him instantly. No one in Bleach has ever made anyone cease to exist, idiot.

Because making someone evaporate from your mere presence is boring. Akira Toriyama didn't make that happen because he's not interested in making shitty predictable fights. It doesn't matter though, because you need to generate infinitely more power to blow up a universe than to destroy a hill.

Like i said reatsu is not the same as ki. Ki has never vaporized someone just by charging up. Reatsu crushes souls.


And you just proved my point why goku wouldnt be able to sense him. They dont have ki. Ki is not the same but more similar to chakra.

Originally posted by chasedown
Like i said reatsu is not the same as ki. Ki has never vaporized someone just by charging up. Reatsu crushes souls.


And you just proved my point why goku wouldnt be able to sense him. They dont have ki. Ki is not the same but more similar to chakra.

Ki has vaporized entire mountains and nearly destroyed planets just by charging up. That outweighs the person thing sorely.

Except Goku has sensed and fought ghosts and souls before. Ki is the same thing, simply because of Goku's feats of dealing with spirits and ghosts. Goku could sense him just like Gohan could sense Goku(from across the universe).

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Ki has vaporized entire mountains and nearly destroyed planets just by charging up. That outweighs the person thing sorely.

Except Goku has sensed and fought ghosts and souls before. Ki is the same thing, simply because of Goku's feats of dealing with spirits and ghosts. Goku could sense him just like Gohan could sense Goku(from across the universe).

When did goku fight a ghost? And was that ghost showcasing reatsu like powers?

You realize when gohan was sensing goku that goku's body was alive even for that day.


Goku cant sense reatsu im not arguing about which one is stronger your clearly missing my point. Reatsu crushes souls ki does not they arent they same.

Originally posted by chasedown
When did goku fight a ghost? And was that ghost showcasing reatsu like powers?

You realize when gohan was sensing goku that goku's body was alive even for that day.


Goku cant sense reatsu im not arguing about which one is stronger your clearly missing my point. Reatsu crushes souls ki does not they arent they same.

http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/52631/2.jpg

This was the first of many times Goku fought a ghost.

http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/57672/3.jpg

Uhh, no, Goku was clearly dead.

http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/57751/1.jpg

Same with Vegeta.

They were simply sent back to Earth as spirits.

Goku sensed the energy of a ghost, and what are soul reapers? Ghosts, meaning that Goku can sense what? Reiatsu.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/52631/2.jpg

This was the first of many times Goku fought a ghost.

http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/57672/3.jpg

Uhh, no, Goku was clearly dead.

http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/57751/1.jpg

Same with Vegeta.

They were simply sent back to Earth as spirits.

Goku sensed the energy of a ghost, and what are soul reapers? Ghosts, meaning that Goku can sense what? Reiatsu.

Ki can only come from living bodies

They were allowed to come back to earth with their original bodies... They werent ghosts at that point. The halo's are there to represent that their time with those bodies on earth were limited. Notice when goku went ssj in his living body the time he could spend greatly decreased.The halos were there link to both the living and spirit world. There bodies were more like the bodies from avatar at that point. For a short time they were allowed to possess them for lack of a better word

Originally posted by chasedown
Ki can only come from living bodies

They were allowed to come back to earth with their original bodies... They werent ghosts at that point. The halo's are there to represent that their time with those bodies on earth were limited. Notice when goku went ssj in his living body the time he could spend greatly decreased.The halos were there link to both the living and spirit world. There bodies were more like the bodies from avatar at that point. For a short time they were allowed to possess them for lack of a better word

THEN WHY COULD GOKU SENSE VEGETA'S, WHEN HE WAS CLEARLY DEAD?

No, it even elaborates in Fusion reborn. Their bodies are gone when someone dies, but they can achieve a metaphysical form in the living world because they use ki. You can't deny the scans, so I accept your concession.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
THEN WHY COULD GOKU SENSE VEGETA'S, WHEN HE WAS CLEARLY DEAD?

No, it even elaborates in Fusion reborn. Their bodies are gone when someone dies, but they can achieve a metaphysical form in the living world because they use ki. You can't deny the scans, so I accept your concession.

Im not denying scans im just telling you that those were physical bodies that were on earth not ghosts. Ki comes from living bodies.
The only real ghosts are those little cloud thing that you see in the dbz spirit world

If you remember king yamma chooses who can and who cant keep there living bodies in the after life. For example goku was allowed to keep his living body after radditz killed him he then learned the spirit bomb which relies on life force of the individual and others around him in order for it to be created.

Also another example is the ssj3 transformation. Goku first transformed into ssj3 in the spirit world after king yamma once again allowed him to keep his body so that he could continue to train.

Fusion reborn is non canon that cant be used because toriyama never wrote that..... Janemba is awesome though

Originally posted by chasedown
Im not denying scans im just telling you that those were physical bodies that were on earth not ghosts. Ki comes from living bodies.
The only real ghosts are those little cloud thing that you see in the dbz spirit world

If you remember king yamma chooses who can and who cant keep there living bodies in the after life. For example goku was allowed to keep his living body after radditz killed him he then learned the spirit bomb which relies on life force of the individual and others around him in order for it to be created.

Also another example is the ssj3 transformation. Goku first transformed into ssj3 in the spirit world after king yamma once again allowed him to keep his body so that he could continue to train.

Fusion reborn is non canon that cant be used because toriyama never wrote that..... Janemba is awesome though

Yes you are denying scans, because the fact remains that they were still ghosts. You know what else comes from living bodies? Reiatsu. Those are spirits of normal people, not warriors that got to keep their physical bodies manifested into metaphysical form.

No, he doesn't. He chooses if someone goes to hell or heaven. Only a god or kai can switch someone's body from physical to metaphysical. Goku kept his body after radditz because Kami converted it into a ghost body.

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/14-205.0/compressed/tdragon_ball_-_v014c010_-_page_014.jpg?v=11378111143

Here's the scan. Goku's body vanishes, and Kami later tells him that he converted his body into a spirit body. What does that sound like? A ghost.

What does that have to do with anything? If anything, SSJ3 proves ME right, and you wrong. Goku could only stay in SSJ3 for extended periods when he was dead. He explained that his living body put too much stress on him while he was a SSJ3, to the point where he needed a full minute to charge, and couldn't stay SSJ3 because his body couldn't handle the constant MASSIVE energy output.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yes you are denying scans, because the fact remains that they were still ghosts. You know what else comes from living bodies? Reiatsu. Those are spirits of normal people, not warriors that got to keep their physical bodies manifested into metaphysical form.

No, he doesn't. He chooses if someone goes to hell or heaven. Only a god or kai can switch someone's body from physical to metaphysical. Goku kept his body after radditz because Kami converted it into a ghost body.

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/214/14-205.0/compressed/tdragon_ball_-_v014c010_-_page_014.jpg?v=11378111143

Here's the scan. Goku's body vanishes, and Kami later tells him that he converted his body into a spirit body. What does that sound like? A ghost.

What does that have to do with anything? If anything, SSJ3 proves ME right, and you wrong. Goku could only stay in SSJ3 for extended periods when he was dead. He explained that his living body put too much stress on him while he was a SSJ3, to the point where he needed a full minute to charge, and couldn't stay SSJ3 because his body couldn't handle the constant MASSIVE energy output.

as well as choosing if someone goes to heaven or hell he chooses who gets to keep their body in the after life and who doesnt. remember piccolo telling vegeta before he killed himself against buu that since vegeta had commited alot of sins he wont be allowed to keep his body in he after life and remember when vegeta comes back he states that yami let him get his body back so that he could help goku fight buuhan

i ever said the living didnt have reatsu i said it is different than ki in the sense that it crushes souls. and can even make somebody disintegrate into thin air.

ki is different because only living bodies can manifest it. Aizen doesnt have ki. ki is more similar to chakra. albeit ki has the highest destructive power of the three.

wheres the scan saying kami said it was a spirit body because the only spirit bodies ive seen are those little clouds that you see in the dbz afterlife?

Originally posted by chasedown
as well as choosing if someone goes to heaven or hell he chooses who gets to keep their body in the after life and who doesnt. remember piccolo telling vegeta before he killed himself against buu that since vegeta had commited alot of sins he wont be allowed to keep his body in he after life and remember when vegeta comes back he states that yami let him get his body back so that he could help goku fight buuhan

Nope, that's not true.

No, I don't remember that because it didn't happen. Liar.

Here's the scan.

http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/1/7/3/b/141841/8.jpg

Goku says they let Vegeta come back. In case you didn't know, Baba was the one that lets people's spirits come back to Earth. Again, you are wrong.

Originally posted by chasedown
i ever said the living didnt have reatsu i said it is different than ki in the sense that it crushes souls. and can even make somebody disintegrate into thin air.

http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/1/7/3/b/141635/11.jpg

Look what Frieza can do with just his mere energy. Crushing an enormous island with your energy >>> Crushing a normal human with your energy.

Originally posted by chasedown
ki is different because only living bodies can manifest it. Aizen doesnt have ki. ki is more similar to chakra. albeit ki has the highest destructive power of the three.

So a dead body is a living body? A star is a living body? Oxygen is a living body? Let me ask this. If ki only comes from living bodies, then why could people in HFIL, people in Heaven, and even celestial bodies such as stars, give their ki to a spirit bomb? Again, everything has ki, and rule of equivalence in debates proves that because of their massive similarities, ki is equivalent to reiatsu. Either prove a difference with scans, or drop it.

Originally posted by chasedown
wheres the scan saying kami said it was a spirit body because the only spirit bodies ive seen are those little clouds that you see in the dbz afterlife?

http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/1/7/3/b/141544/8.jpg

Here Kami is SPECIFICALLY saying that there is no difference from Goku and a random, dead alien. King Yemma even says he could go straight to Heaven if he wanted. You're aware that, in DBZ, only souls can go to Heaven, right? Even the Kai's can't go to "the upper world", as they call it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Nope, that's not true.

No, I don't remember that because it didn't happen. Liar.

Here's the scan.

http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/1/7/3/b/141841/8.jpg

Goku says they let Vegeta come back. In case you didn't know, Baba was the one that lets people's spirits come back to Earth. Again, you are wrong.



http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/1/7/3/b/141635/11.jpg

Look what Frieza can do with just his mere energy. Crushing an enormous island with your energy >>> Crushing a normal human with your energy.



So a dead body is a living body? A star is a living body? Oxygen is a living body? Let me ask this. If ki only comes from living bodies, then why could people in HFIL, people in Heaven, and even celestial bodies such as stars, give their ki to a spirit bomb? Again, everything has ki, and rule of equivalence in debates proves that because of their massive similarities, ki is equivalent to reiatsu. Either prove a difference with scans, or drop it.



http://a-old.mwfile.com/3/1/7/3/b/141544/8.jpg

Here Kami is SPECIFICALLY saying that there is no difference from Goku and a random, dead alien. King Yemma even says he could go straight to Heaven if he wanted. You're aware that, in DBZ, only souls can go to Heaven, right? Even the Kai's can't go to "the upper world", as they call it.

Dude it says it right in the scan you just posted that enma allowed him to come back.

Also piccolo did say that vegeta would lose his body in the afterlife because he commited to many evil sins. This happend right before he sacrificed himself against fat buu.

http://youtu.be/RrIxCC_Z720 8:20 Canon material

The scan you shown with kami teleporting his physical body to the spirit world is proof of that his body was preserved and allowed to be in the spirit world

Ki has never killed anybody through by mere presence its different than reatsu once again. Goku nor anybody in the dbz verse has killed anybody simply by being around them or even by charging up


There is a distinct differentiation between goku and the other little flaoting cloud spirits that are in heaven in the dbz verse

Anyway back to the fight one on one goku would basically beat everybody in the HST but together they could prove a problem for him unless he starts the fight by blowing them up.

There are several characters within the hst that are way smarter than goku is (urahara ,aizen szayel apporo mayuru basically damn near every one in bleach, the hokage, the uchiha, all jonin level ninja and up in naruto shika family included and a plethora of one piece characters)... Working together while combining there techniques they could beat him... Matbe not kill him but beat him. There would be casualties in the hst but together they could win.

Sheer power isnt everything.... Of course this is all to say goku doesnt just blow the planet up from the start. Which we know isnt In his nature

Originally posted by chasedown
Dude it says it right in the scan you just posted that enma allowed him to come back.

Also piccolo did say that vegeta would lose his body in the afterlife because he commited to many evil sins. This happend right before he sacrificed himself against fat buu.

http://youtu.be/RrIxCC_Z720 8:20 Canon material

The scan you shown with kami teleporting his physical body to the spirit world is proof of that his body was preserved and allowed to be in the spirit world

Ki has never killed anybody through by mere presence its different than reatsu once again. Goku nor anybody in the dbz verse has killed anybody simply by being around them or even by charging up


There is a distinct differentiation between goku and the other little flaoting cloud spirits that are in heaven in the dbz verse

mmm No it doesn't. It says that Yemma was worried if Vegeta was allowed back. Again, Baba is the one that resurrects souls. Why do you think she took Vegeta to Earth, and not Yemma?

Dub error. In the actual scan, Piccolo said Vegeta would have his soul cleansed and gain a new existence.

Again, ki destroying a huge island by mere presence>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>vaporizing a normal human by mere presence.

It doesn't matter if they've never killed anyone by it, they've destroyed islands and nearly entire realities and universes from their presence ALONE.

There IS a difference. The Janemba movie proves it. Every one of those little spirits has a body when on Earth, but you can only keep your body in the afterlife if you've earned it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
mmm No it doesn't. It says that Yemma was worried if Vegeta was allowed back. Again, Baba is the one that resurrects souls. Why do you think she took Vegeta to Earth, and not Yemma?

Dub error. In the actual scan, Piccolo said Vegeta would have his soul cleansed and gain a new existence.

Again, ki destroying a huge island by mere presence>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>vaporizing a normal human by mere presence.

It doesn't matter if they've never killed anyone by it, they've destroyed islands and nearly entire realities and universes from their presence ALONE.

There IS a difference. The Janemba movie proves it. Every one of those little spirits has a body when on Earth, but you can only keep your body in the afterlife if you've earned it.

That proves my point if it doesnt harm the soul of your opponent by mere presence its different than reatsu. Im not saying reatsu is stronger im saying the two have different sources of power. Ki by probably would destroy the environment by charging up.

But its never done the things reatsu does which is attack the souls of others. Another example would be stark his reatsu was so strong that any spirit who was around him would just die or cease to exist. Again not saying reatsu is stronger but the teo are definitely different

Ki literally means life energy

I think your missing what im saying. In dbz if you die and lived a rich life void of sin you are allowed to keep the body you had on earth in the afterlife. This is fact weve seen plenty of examples of it throughout the series. Goku's body and spirit wasnt separated.

When they come down to earth the halos are there to represent that their time in the living world is limited.

The only real and true straight spirits are those cloud souls we see.

Here are explanations of ki an reatsu

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Reiatsu
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ki

Curious as to what the ghost talk is in relation to.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Curious as to what the ghost talk is in relation to.

If goku break kyoka suigetsu by sensing aizen's reatsu.

Im trying to explain to him that ki an reatsu are not the same so goku wouldnt be able to just ki sense himself out of it

Originally posted by chasedown
If goku break kyoka suigetsu by sensing aizen's reatsu.

Im trying to explain to him that ki an reatsu are not the same so goku wouldnt be able to just ki sense himself out of it

But wouldn't the whole ki/reatsu thing be cover in equivalency rule. Even if it weren't Aizen still has no way of actually hurting Goku and if he decides to go in with a sword blow, Goku will know its him.

But really this all just goes back to mindset which is what was agreed on in the first page.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
But wouldn't the whole ki/reatsu thing be cover in equivalency rule. Even if it weren't Aizen still has no way of actually hurting Goku and if he decides to go in with a sword blow, Goku will know its him.

But really this all just goes back to mindset which is what was agreed on in the first page.


Im just saying hes fight the whole hst and each series has many characters way more intelligent than goku. Alone none of them can beat goku But they could work together in combination to create a strategy than would beat goku.

Shikamaru,shikaku, aizen, urahara , itachi, madara and the kage just to name a few characters from each verse to could just plane outsmart goku. And theres much more.

They cant physically hurt him but i dont see why they cant use other means to outsmart him,hurt him mentally or seal him. Goku is fighting all of these characters from every verse at once. Each verse with a number of unique and hax abilities

Killing isnt the only way to win a fight.

Unless goku blows them all up in the beginning of the fight i think the hst could make the battle interesting

Originally posted by chasedown
If goku break kyoka suigetsu by sensing aizen's reatsu.

Im trying to explain to him that ki an reatsu are not the same so goku wouldnt be able to just ki sense himself out of it Energy equivalent rule, unless limited specifications are involved.





Though correct me if I'm wrong (here's looking at you Gogeta) but wasn't there an instance where someone in DBZ was easily affected by illusions or mental attacks? If not that then DB. Only got the vaguest memory of this working.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Energy equivalent rule, unless limited specifications are involved.





Though correct me if I'm wrong (here's looking at you Gogeta) but wasn't there an instance where someone in DBZ was easily affected by illusions or mental attacks? If not that then DB. Only got the vaguest memory of this working.


Still all in all you cant just sense your way out of kyoka suigetsu if that was the case everybody under it would be able to break its spell.


Imagine goku falling under a combo of shinji's sword, kyoka suigetsu, izanami, and tsukishima's book of the end. And theres more illusionary and mental users within the hst. Goku would be blastin away at rocks for hours.

These illusions could give the hst characters time to strategize and create a plan to seal him or evern less likely kill him.

Plus gremmy could use his imagination to bring back kid buu or someone formidable enough to fight goku while hes under said illusionary tactics

Base Goku is still a moon level threat. He wins.

Originally posted by chasedown
Still all in all you cant just sense your way out of kyoka suigetsu if that was the case everybody under it would be able to break its spell.


Imagine goku falling under a combo of shinji's sword, kyoka suigetsu, izanami, and tsukishima's book of the end. And theres more illusionary and mental users within the hst. Goku would be blastin away at rocks for hours.

These illusions could give the hst characters time to strategize and create a plan to seal him or evern less likely kill him.

Plus gremmy could use his imagination to bring back kid buu or someone formidable enough to fight goku while hes under said illusionary tactics

You're retarded. No one in bleach has a nonillionth of the ki sensing ability Goku has. DBZ characters can fight off of ki sense alone. See Frieza vs. Goku. You arguing that ki and reiatsu are different only helps my case. If they are, then Aizen can't control Goku at all because sword abilities don't work on reiatsu's higher than yours, i.e. people that don't have reiatsu as well, AND Goku can still see and kill Aizen because he can see ghosts.

IF he couldn't EASILY break them with sheer strength like Aizen did(which he casually could during the Saiyan saga), then he could still blow up the planet, which would break the illusions by killing the casters, and teleport to king kai's planet or something.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOL
OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOL
OLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
OLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLL
OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOL
OLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
OLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL
OLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
OLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, Gremmy had to double his power JUST to summon a SINGLE meteor, a casual Madara level feat. Suggesting that he could create a universal level entity to defeat his enemies, or even worse, CONTROL him, instantly proves you lose. Again.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're retarded. No one in bleach has a nonillionth of the ki sensing ability Goku has. DBZ characters can fight off of ki sense alone. See Frieza vs. Goku. You arguing that ki and reiatsu are different only helps my case. If they are, then Aizen can't control Goku at all because sword abilities don't work on reiatsu's higher than yours, i.e. people that don't have reiatsu as well, AND Goku can still see and kill Aizen because he can see ghosts.

IF he couldn't EASILY break them with sheer strength like Aizen did(which he casually could during the Saiyan saga), then he could still blow up the planet, which would break the illusions by killing the casters, and teleport to king kai's planet or something.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOL
OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOL
OLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
OLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLL
OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOL
OLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
OLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL
OLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
OLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLO
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, Gremmy had to double his power JUST to summon a SINGLE meteor, a casual Madara level feat. Suggesting that he could create a universal level entity to defeat his enemies, or even worse, CONTROL him, instantly proves you lose. Again.

We both know aizen is a master manipulator he loves to talk trapping goku in kyoka is childs play for him. All he has to do is say the swords name and goku is under it.Kyoka suigetsu doesnt need to take control of goku's energy it doesnt work like that it would take control of his senses. Goku wouldnt even know he was under it if or until aizen told him. Nobody has ever broken kyoka just by sensing where aizen is. Goku would be fighting things he think are there and they really arent. Goku would see hear and feel whatever aizen wanted him too. Plus remember like i said kyoka could be combined along with every other illusion/ mental attack oriented character. Goku would literally be confused and fighting illusions. Just izanami and kyoka are devestating by themselves imagine it in conjuntion with all the mental based techniques within the hst.

Gremmy was just an attempt to show that in fact they could distract him. Plus why cant gremmy multiply him self to a great enough number thats needed to create a being that could hurt goku. Matter of fact even things like the meteor could distract goku because he would try to destroy it because he would be afraid that innocents would get hurt.

We both know its fact that there are tons of characters within the hst smarter than goku. Working together they could use group think to devise a strategy to seal goku or trick him into doing something detrimental to himself. Aizen, mayuri,syzel apporo, urahara, itachi, sage madara shikaku and shikamaru, kakashi,hashirama and the other kage and other smart characters within the hst could come up with something.


Of course like ive been saying it all depends on goku's mind state. The goku we all know and love would never just blow up the planet or a whole country area as soon as a fight starts. If goku were bloodlusted the fight would be over before it even started.

They cant physically kill goku but they surpass goku in other aspects of fighting alone none of them could beat him but together they stand a fighters chance and It wouldnt be easy

The hst is full of an incredible amount of hax techniques

as a matter of fact here is a way goku would lose. while under kyoka suigetsu or any other genjutsu or psycho based attack yukio or gremmy could just trap him in another dimension.

remember this is base goku hed have no way of breaking out since he cant go to ssj3
and the HST WINS

or reaper death seal, totsuka blade, or any sealing technique from bleach.

hell urahara could even place those cuffs on goku and force goku's energy back on himself thus killing him.

Originally posted by chasedown
We both know aizen is a master manipulator he loves to talk trapping goku in kyoka is childs play for him. All he has to do is say the swords name and goku is under it.Kyoka suigetsu doesnt need to take control of goku's energy it doesnt work like that it would take control of his senses. Goku wouldnt even know he was under it if or until aizen told him. Nobody has ever broken kyoka just by sensing where aizen is. Goku would be fighting things he think are there and they really arent. Goku would see hear and feel whatever aizen wanted him too. Plus remember like i said kyoka could be combined along with every other illusion/ mental attack oriented character. Goku would literally be confused and fighting illusions. Just izanami and kyoka are devestating by themselves imagine it in conjuntion with all the mental based techniques within the hst.

Gremmy was just an attempt to show that in fact they could distract him. Plus why cant gremmy multiply him self to a great enough number thats needed to create a being that could hurt goku. Matter of fact even things like the meteor could distract goku because he would try to destroy it because he would be afraid that innocents would get hurt.

We both know its fact that there are tons of characters within the hst smarter than goku. Working together they could use group think to devise a strategy to seal goku or trick him into doing something detrimental to himself. Aizen, mayuri,syzel apporo, urahara, itachi, sage madara shikaku and shikamaru, kakashi,hashirama and the other kage and other smart characters within the hst could come up with something.


Of course like ive been saying it all depends on goku's mind state. The goku we all know and love would never just blow up the planet or a whole country area as soon as a fight starts. If goku were bloodlusted the fight would be over before it even started.

They cant physically kill goku but they surpass goku in other aspects of fighting alone none of them could beat him but together they stand a fighters chance and It wouldnt be easy

1. What does that matter, when Goku can still sense through it casually? Aizen can control five senses, not six. No one in Bleach broke from it because they were all weaker than Aizen. Goku, who is so vastly stronger and faster along with ki sense, could easily grab the sword as Aizen was coming at him, before vaporizing them both with a thought. You're completely neglecting the fact that Goku HAS FOUGHT WITH HIS SOLE KI SENSE BEFORE, AND AGAINST PEOPLE THAT CAN PLANET AND SOLAR SYSTEM BUST.

Izanami wouldn't work on Goku, because he's never doubted himself and accepts who he is, and every other genjutsu, hypnosis, mind control, etc. of the HST can be grunted out of by sheer force. If their characters can do it, or come close to it, then Goku, who can produce universe busting energy levels, could break them all in base form during the Saiyan saga. It doesn't matter if they control his five senses, because again, THEY CANNOT CONTROL KI SENSE. See Babidi controlling Vegeta. He literally changed his personality and controlled his mind, but Vegeta could break it with sheer ki. That feat alone shits on everything the HST can throw at them combined.

2. Uh, because Gremmy was out of breath, winded and sweaty from making one clone and summoning a single meteor. He would die trying to summon Nappa, let alone someone like Kid Buu that throws around galaxy busters and breaks reality by yelling.

3. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. THEY DON'T HAVE PREP TIME HERE. WE CAN'T JUST ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THEY HAVE DEALT WITH THREATS STRONGER THAN THEM BEFORE, THAT THEY CAN DEAL WITH GOKU. Goku is on a COMPLETELY different level than them. The strongest of the HST are country busters. Goku is a LITERAL universe buster/reality buster. It doesn't matter how smart someone is, if the person they're up against is able to LITERALLY tank and destroy everything they throw at them, while blitzing three planets of characters all casually in his weakest form from an early version that's nowhere even comparable to his strongest universe busting form.

You LITERALLY might as well put Batman up against Galactus or The living Tribunal.

4. How could Gremmy's meteor distract Goku when he could vaporize it with a gesture?

5. Again, it doesn't matter. You're pretty much throwing a giant heap of feathers on someone that can smash mountains with his face. The amount of attacks you throw at him doesn't matter if he can simply tank attacks infinitely stronger than them without being even a bit worked. Goku has tanked attacks from people who can planet, solar system, galaxy, universe, multiverse/reality bust before. A hundred mountain busters will do less than nothing to him.

Originally posted by yungz22
as a matter of fact here is a way goku would lose. while under kyoka suigetsu or any other genjutsu or psycho based attack yukio or gremmy could just trap him in another dimension.

remember this is base goku hed have no way of breaking out since he cant go to ssj3
and the HST WINS

or reaper death seal, totsuka blade, or any sealing technique from bleach.

hell urahara could even place those cuffs on goku and force goku's energy back on himself thus killing him.

What? Gremmy trapped Kenpachi in a patch of outer space. Not another dimension, you idiot bleach wanker.

Any of those seals can be broken out of by simply overpowering them. Goku can casually do so all at once.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What? Gremmy trapped Kenpachi in a patch of outer space. Not another dimension, you idiot bleach wanker.

Any of those seals can be broken out of by simply overpowering them. Goku can casually do so all at once.


fine then yukio seals him in another dimension fight over.

Originally posted by yungz22
fine then yukio seals him in another dimension fight over.

Yukio? Is that another character from Bleach?

If so, then you're talking about a giant black box. Ichigo casually broke out of it. Goku breaks out of it as a child.

Again, name-of-an-attack means nothing. Unless it was specified to be a literal other dimension, and no one who was weaker than Goku broke out of it, then your point is moot.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yukio? Is that another character from Bleach?

If so, then you're talking about a giant black box. Ichigo casually broke out of it. Goku breaks out of it as a child.

Again, name-of-an-attack means nothing. Unless it was specified to be a literal other dimension, and no one who was weaker than Goku broke out of it, then your point is moot.

They can trap him in the garganta. Along with yukio' dimension and galaxy room. He cant break out out the garganta nor can he break out of the dangai world

Originally posted by chasedown
They can trap him in the garganta. Along with yukio' dimension and galaxy room. He cant break out out the garganta nor can he break out of the dangai world

His energy feats vastly outweigh any of Ichigo's. Therefor, anything Ichigo can do with raw strength, Goku can do. SSJ3 level's can break through reality itself, to enter separate dimensions. Unless you're also saying that Gremmy can't break out of the Yukio dimension, or dangai/garganta.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
His energy feats vastly outweigh any of Ichigo's. Therefor, anything Ichigo can do with raw strength, Goku can do. SSJ3 level's can break through reality itself, to enter separate dimensions. Unless you're also saying that Gremmy can't break out of the Yukio dimension, or dangai/garganta.

This fight doesnt allow goku to super saiyan he will not be able to break out of demesions like the garganta/dangai or even the kamui world. Goku would lose the fight hed be stuck in there until he dies and the hst wins.

Gremmy and yukio will probably die but every battle has its casualties. There are just too many hax abilities and characters for base goku to fight at once.

Originally posted by chasedown
This fight doesnt allow goku to super saiyan he will not be able to break out of demesions like the garganta/dangai or even the kamui world. Goku would lose the fight hed be stuck in there until he dies and the hst wins.

Gremmy and yukio will probably die but every battle has its casualties. There are just too many hax abilities and characters for base goku to fight at once.

Goku could still use Kaioken...but that hurts him as well.

The Yukio dimension isn't a very viable option though since apparently it only requires you to be stronger than Yukio to break out of it: you can check me on this one because I'm not sure.

However thanks to equivalency rule, Aizen's zanpakuto should work just fine on Goku.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Goku could still use Kaioken...but that hurts him as well.

The Yukio dimension isn't a very viable option though since apparently it only requires you to be stronger than Yukio to break out of it: you can check me on this one because I'm not sure.

However thanks to equivalency rule, Aizen's zanpakuto should work just fine on Goku.

Kaioken isnt breaking him out of the garganta/dangai or the kamui world. Hed be stuck in there for the rest of his natural life.

No your right he can break out of yukio's dimension it was just a name i heard someone else use. It lead me to start brainstorming how goku would lose.

Heres another scenario i thought of that could possibly work. Imagine goku falling under a combination between koto amatsukami and kyoka then shisui ordering him to fly into the sun. Matter or fact goku cant survive in space regardless

Or the hat using their illusion and mental attack techniques stunning goku long enough for torune to poison him with his body. Goku dies from illness

Or the illusions and mental attacks stunning him enough for kakashi and obito to decapitate him with kamui goku dies again.

My point is that theres ways for the hst to win it just takes deep though and strategy which im sure shikaku,shikamaru, madara, itachi ,obito , aizen, urahara and other can think up some great ones. Theres too many manipulators within the hst

This is all assuming goku doesnt blow up the earth at the beginning of the fight but that isnt in his character. We all know aizen is a talker it wouldnt be hard for him to get goku under kyoka

If Shisui, or Danzo could successful place koto amatsukami on Goku the fight is over almost instantly. That thing, according to its description and feats, is pretty much Geass level in potency.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If Shisui, or Danzo could successful place koto amatsukami on Goku the fight is over almost instantly. That thing, according to its description and feats, is pretty much Geass level in potency.

FLAWLESS VICTORY!!!!!

With that jutsu goku's demise is imminent.

Originally posted by chasedown
This fight doesnt allow goku to super saiyan he will not be able to break out of demesions like the garganta/dangai or even the kamui world. Goku would lose the fight hed be stuck in there until he dies and the hst wins.

Gremmy and yukio will probably die but every battle has its casualties. There are just too many hax abilities and characters for base goku to fight at once.

There you go, dodging my argument again. Prove that those dimensions are the same as in DBZ, you who argue that ki is so different from Chakra and Reiatsu. Energy equivalence rules. If Ichigo could break out of the dimension just by exerting energy, then anyone who can exert equal or more energy can do so as well. Goku happens to be capable of exerting universe and reality extinguishing levels of energy that dwarf Ichigo's so vastly that his energy is comparable in size to an atom when scaled to Goku's, which would be a solar system in comparison. You don't even fathom the difference in energy it takes to blow up a universe, and the energy it takes to blow up a town. Goku can break those casually. Could Ichigo break the ROSAT dimension though? PHUCK NO.

Again, drop this argument unless you're saying that Kenny, Gremmy, Yamamoto, Aizen, Juha Bach, etc. can't break those "dimensions", or come relatively close for that matter. Oh! Even better, show me a SINGLE feat of destructive or energy capacity even ON PAR with Saiyan saga Vegeta or Goku, and you'll prove that Goku can't break all these illusions, "dimensions", and attacks CASUALLY in base form.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
There you go, dodging my argument again. Prove that those dimensions are the same as in DBZ, you who argue that ki is so different from Chakra and Reiatsu. Energy equivalence rules. If Ichigo could break out of the dimension just by exerting energy, then anyone who can exert equal or more energy can do so as well. Goku happens to be capable of exerting universe and reality extinguishing levels of energy that dwarf Ichigo's so vastly that his energy is comparable in size to an atom when scaled to Goku's, which would be a solar system in comparison. You don't even fathom the difference in energy it takes to blow up a universe, and the energy it takes to blow up a town. Goku can break those casually. Could Ichigo break the ROSAT dimension though? PHUCK NO.

Again, drop this argument unless you're saying that Kenny, Gremmy, Yamamoto, Aizen, Juha Bach, etc. can't break those "dimensions", or come relatively close for that matter. Oh! Even better, show me a SINGLE feat of destructive or energy capacity even ON PAR with Saiyan saga Vegeta or Goku, and you'll prove that Goku can't break all these illusions, "dimensions", and attacks CASUALLY in base form.

goku wouldnt even realize hes under these illlusions or genjutsu. kyoka is not something that can just be powered out of because it attacks the senses. it isnt energy based at all. If that were the case yamamoto would have just exerted enough spiritual pressure to get out of it because even aizen said he was not stronger than yamma ji at that point.

ive always said that ki and chakra are very very similar as they are both living energies. so genjutsu from naruto would in fact work.

i already admitted that he can break out out yukio's dimension because yukio is rather weak. but he cant break out of the garganta/dangai or the kamui world Goku might only be able to break out of them if he were ssj3 but this fight has rules and they clearly state he cant go super saiyan.

only those who have the ability or tools to open the senkaimon can get out the garganta/dangai. yes if gremmy were to go inside the garanta/dangai he would be stuck there too. ichigo himself has been stuck in there before.

same for kamui only those who have the kamui ability can control what goes in or out.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
There you go, dodging my argument again. Prove that those dimensions are the same as in DBZ, you who argue that ki is so different from Chakra and Reiatsu. Energy equivalence rules. If Ichigo could break out of the dimension just by exerting energy, then anyone who can exert equal or more energy can do so as well. Goku happens to be capable of exerting universe and reality extinguishing levels of energy that dwarf Ichigo's so vastly that his energy is comparable in size to an atom when scaled to Goku's, which would be a solar system in comparison. You don't even fathom the difference in energy it takes to blow up a universe, and the energy it takes to blow up a town. Goku can break those casually. Could Ichigo break the ROSAT dimension though? PHUCK NO.

Again, drop this argument unless you're saying that Kenny, Gremmy, Yamamoto, Aizen, Juha Bach, etc. can't break those "dimensions", or come relatively close for that matter. Oh! Even better, show me a SINGLE feat of destructive or energy capacity even ON PAR with Saiyan saga Vegeta or Goku, and you'll prove that Goku can't break all these illusions, "dimensions", and attacks CASUALLY in base form.

Just face it goku can lose this fight give it up

Me and others within these forums have all said that chakra and ki are similar.


And gokus not breaking dimensions unless he goes ssj3 and he cant do that in this fight

Originally posted by yungz22
goku wouldnt even realize hes under these illlusions or genjutsu. kyoka is not something that can just be powered out of because it attacks the senses. it isnt energy based at all. If that were the case yamamoto would have just exerted enough spiritual pressure to get out of it because even aizen said he was not stronger than yamma ji at that point.

ive always said that ki and chakra are very very similar as they are both living energies. so genjutsu from naruto would in fact work.

i already admitted that he can break out out yukio's dimension because yukio is rather weak. but he cant break out of the garganta/dangai or the kamui world Goku might only be able to break out of them if he were ssj3 but this fight has rules and they clearly state he cant go super saiyan.

only those who have the ability or tools to open the senkaimon can get out the garganta/dangai. yes if gremmy were to go inside the garanta/dangai he would be stuck there too. ichigo himself has been stuck in there before.

same for kamui only those who have the kamui ability can control what goes in or out.

1. Show me Kyoka Suigetsu controlling ki sense.

2. Yes, they would, but energy equivalence also works in Goku's favor because he can either sense out of any illusion, or overpower it.

3. So why could so many other espada and other characters in Bleach escape the garganta or dangai world? Ichigo and his dad left it with sheer reiatsu, so Goku could yawn himself out of it in base form.

4. That's not true. Gremmy would open a portal with sheer reiatsu, just like Goku would with a kiai. Ichigo also broke out of it with sheer reiatsu with his dad.

5. Only Kakashi has offensive Kamui, and that can still be sped out of by moving light speed. Tien and Kid Goku could escape it. Same with Obito's touch-kamui, making all Kamui's useless against Goku.

Originally posted by chasedown
Just face it goku can lose this fight give it up

Me and others within these forums have all said that chakra and ki are similar.


And gokus not breaking dimensions unless he goes ssj3 and he cant do that in this fight

I already said he can... If we're taking him before fighting Piccolo.

Exactly. Meaning that equivalence rules on their feats still apply here.

He doesn't need to, because no one here that has broken from their series dimensions can exert energy on par with Nappa. This means that even Saiyan saga Goku can break any of those "dimensions", but none of the ones in his series. It's a little different to rip through reality itself, than it is to create portals to other dimensions. Even Kami did that multiple times. All of those "dimensions" have been broken out of with sheer power, by people with vastly lower feats of energy than Goku, meaning he could do so with a yawn.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I already said he can... If we're taking him before fighting Piccolo.

Exactly. Meaning that equivalence rules on their feats still apply here.

He doesn't need to, because no one here that has broken from their series dimensions can exert energy on par with Nappa. This means that even Saiyan saga Goku can break any of those "dimensions", but none of the ones in his series. It's a little different to rip through reality itself, than it is to create portals to other dimensions. Even Kami did that multiple times. All of those "dimensions" have been broken out of with sheer power, by people with vastly lower feats of energy than Goku, meaning he could do so with a yawn.

You never said goku could lose you always stated goku stomps them

Dimensions are not stronger than each other the. Yukio's dimensions is like a cage thats only as strong as he is. The dangai and kamui worlds are different in that that they have there own rules one way in one way out just like the hyperbolic time chamber. Only ppl in dragonballz to break a dimension were ssj3 power level and up.

Nappa can break yukio's spiritual pressure made dimensions but he cant break natural dimensions like dangai and kamui world. The hyperbolic time chamber is the same as those.


The point is that goku wouldnt even know he is under kyoka or kotoamatsukami and if he were to start charging up obito and kakashi could just send him to the kamui world.


Ppl from aizens own universe that are stronger than him cant sense their way out of kyoka suigetsu what makes goku's ki sensing any different if we are using the energy equivilance rule.

With the equivalency rule on nobody has ever sensed their way out of kyoka even those stronger than him in his universe so it wouldnt work. With the equivalency rule off aizen has no ki for goku to sense so it wouldnt work.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Show me Kyoka Suigetsu controlling ki sense.

2. Yes, they would, but energy equivalence also works in Goku's favor because he can either sense out of any illusion, or overpower it.

3. So why could so many other espada and other characters in Bleach escape the garganta or dangai world? Ichigo and his dad left it with sheer reiatsu, so Goku could yawn himself out of it in base form.

4. That's not true. Gremmy would open a portal with sheer reiatsu, just like Goku would with a kiai. Ichigo also broke out of it with sheer reiatsu with his dad.

5. Only Kakashi has offensive Kamui, and that can still be sped out of by moving light speed. Tien and Kid Goku could escape it. Same with Obito's touch-kamui, making all Kamui's useless against Goku.

1. He doesn't have to. Energy Equivalency covers it. Also Ki doesn't exist in the Bleach verse. That's like asking you to find me a scan of a Dragonball being used in Bleach.

2. That's not how that works. With equivalency rule Goku still has to follow the guidelines of how an ability works in order to break it. If it were simply a matter of being more powerful, Yamamoto would've broken of out Aizen's ability.

3. Espada and Garganta have, in a manner a speaking, keys to get out. Goku does not however you could argue that Instant Transmission eliminates almost every attempt to BFR him.

4. Ichigo broke out of Yukio's dimension because he was stronger than him. With the dangai world, Ichigo already had a way out thanks to his dad.

5. Both Obito and Kakashi can use Kamui offensively just in different forms. Kakashi's is just the safer of the two in this instance. That would be the case if Obito was fighting alone but he's not.

With a combination of hax powers from the HST it is very possible for Goku to loose. However all arguments end up circling back to mindset.

Could we all stop this whole searching for something to stop Goku and the whole Goku is immune to everything thing. Can we please factor in Speed, strength and so on. Because the assumption that characters just stand there and let themselves get attacked needs to stop. That being said. Goku would probably win through having an infinite range of ways to defeat them while they have could probably only win through some special hax strategies that may or may not work. The edge goes to Goku overall. But it isn't a shit stomp like other people are making out. If we played this scenario a few hundred times, GOku wouldn't always win.

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Could we all stop this whole searching for something to stop Goku and the whole Goku is immune to everything thing. Can we please factor in Speed, strength and so on. Because the assumption that characters just stand there and let themselves get attacked needs to stop. That being said. Goku would probably win through having an infinite range of ways to defeat them while they have could probably only win through some special hax strategies that may or may not work. The edge goes to Goku overall. But it isn't a shit stomp like other people are making out. If we played this scenario a few hundred times, GOku wouldn't always win.

Yea theres just too many ways goku could lose to those hax abilities. The man could even die from torune touching him. Characters have abilities like cloning themselves to use for distraction. This is def not a stomp for base goku.

"not a stomp for Goku"

No, even Raditz can just replicate what Sensui did to the HST years ago (before the Nardoverse upgrades) and just nuke the HST from high up

Anything above him is just overkill

Besides, it's not like CIS and PIS are default factors here >.>

Originally posted by StealthRanger
"not a stomp for Goku"

No, even Raditz can just replicate what Sensui did to the HST years ago (before the Nardoverse upgrades) and just nuke the HST from high up

Anything above him is just overkill

Besides, it's not like CIS and PIS are default factors here >.>


Raditz was not a worldly threat only by charging ki. Only ssj3 has been shown to be that powerful. He could blow up the world though with a concentrated ki blast

Raditz was more powerful than Piccolo who could blow up the moon with his attacks. EoS Goku makes him look like a speck of dust

Nappa by raising 2 fingers fired an energy blast that was easily visible from space (I think was calced to teraton range) and bitchslapped Piccolo and Krillin (obvious emphasis being on the former). EoS Goku is way more powerful than him

Meanwhile the OP and Nardo generously reaches gigaton levels with a few that, also generously, reach teraton (a level Nappa can achieve with no effort)

Wanna remind me why a ****er like Raditz can't nuke the HST from high up, again, much like Sensui did to them so long ago?

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Raditz was more powerful than Piccolo who could blow up the moon with his attacks. EoS Goku makes him look like a speck of dust

Nappa by raising 2 fingers fired an energy blast that was easily visible from space (I think was calced to teraton range) and bitchslapped Piccolo and Krillin (obvious emphasis being on the former). EoS Goku is way more powerful than him

Meanwhile the OP and Nardo generously reaches gigaton levels with a few that, also generously, reach teraton (a level Nappa can achieve with no effort)

Wanna remind me why a ****er like Raditz can't nuke the HST from high up, again, much like Sensui did to them so long ago?

This fight isnt about raditz its about goku and nobody is denying that lboth could blow up the world in the beginning of a fight

It just something like that is not in goku's character. That fact alone is the sole reason the hst have a chance.

I know that it's about Goku. I mean, if some no name schmuck like Raditz can nuke the HST, then Goku can

It's not like the rules say the combatants are in character or the OP said this

See! The argument always loops back to mindset.

Oh and to answer a previous question about avoiding being nuked: they have access to forms of teleportation in the form of Kuma and Minato on top of a legit light-speed character. and as mention before if koto amatsukami can successfully be cast, it probably wouldn't, the fight's over then and there.

Teleportation doesn't mean much against attacks that happen before you can percieve shit unless you have automatic defenses or something

If you mean Kizaru, he can't attack in that mode

Something akin to Babidi's "mind****", which failed against Vegeta

Originally posted by StealthRanger
I know that it's about Goku. I mean, if some no name schmuck like Raditz can nuke the HST, then Goku can

It's not like the rules say the combatants are in character or the OP said this

The creator of the thread didnt state that he was bloodlusted. you cant have the chracters acting out of character unless the creator of this thread says so.

Cite the rule where it says CIS applies to everyone by default

Though if I wanted to, I could ask you ****ers to prove it'd be in the CIS of HST chars to use their hax right away and not go in with their potential game ending hax first

Funny thing that, people who ask to prove CIS for the opponent, yet ignore it for their own combatant

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Teleportation doesn't mean much against attacks that happen before you can percieve shit unless you have automatic defenses or something

If you mean Kizaru, he can't attack in that mode

Something akin to Babidi's "mind****", which failed against Vegeta

Vegeta was still stopped in his tracks for a minute or two by babidi's mental attack and koto amatsukami is absolute. And stronger than anything babadi ever did mental attack wise.

other mental attacks from the hst can do the same. That pause gives the hst chances for multiple opportunities to take advantage of.

"Absolute", what's that s'pose to mean? Why would it do shit against Goku than Babidi's mind**** did to Vegeta?

This mind**** will occur from characters with vastly inferior reactions to Goku..... before or after he nukes the damn place?

Originally posted by StealthRanger
"Absolute", what's that s'pose to mean? Why would it do shit against Goku than Babidi's mind**** did to Vegeta?

This mind**** will occur from characters with vastly inferior reactions to Goku..... before or after he nukes the damn place?


http://youtu.be/XSkn3s9MWcI

http://youtu.be/Ulihqwxtb-c

Vegeta was still stopped in his tracks both going under babidis mind control and when he was trying to get out. Also babidi's mind control only works on those who are pure evil vegeta was no longer pure evil at that point in the series no matter how bad he wanted to be. He also was aware that babidi was trying to control him. Also you forget that goku cant go ssj in this fight.

Kota amatatsukami and kyoka are absolute in the sense that the victim doesnt even know they are under their control and both can allow the user to manipulate the victim into doing the things the users want.

Kota is code geass level

They both are absolute hypnosis techniques by different means. Both in there own way take away freedoms thevictim once had

Goku doesn't even need to nuke the area he could just punch everyone in the face considering no one will ever touch him unless he stands still.

Originally posted by Nevan
Goku doesn't even need to nuke the area he could just punch everyone in the face considering no one will ever touch him unless he stands still.

There are characters is the hst that goku would punch and actually end up killing himself in the process. Torune for example, salamander is another

Based on?

Goku isn't exactly bug-proof nor is he immune to poison. In fact Mayuri and Magellan could possibly given him trouble.

buuuuuuuuuut....this just keeps going back to friggin mindset.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Goku isn't exactly bug-proof nor is he immune to poison. In fact Mayuri and Magellan could possibly given him trouble.

buuuuuuuuuut....this just keeps going back to friggin mindset.

The mindset thing is kind of settled because unless the thread creator says otherwise we cant have chracters doing things they just plain wouldnt do.

Goku is very merciful and cares about all life on earth he would never just start blowing everything up at the very beggining of a fight thats more vegetas style.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Based on?

Goku isnt immune to disease

But he is immune to cuts, or needing to breathe, on account of the whole "ki bio-sphere" thing, that nearly every Saiyan has done many times.

Why even bring up character mind-sets? If they were in character, Goku would end up training Naruto, and shit on Madara and evil characters. They wouldn't be fighting at all. However, this is a vs. forum, so they WANT to kill each other, meaning Goku yawns and the HST is gone.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But he is immune to cuts, or needing to breathe, on account of the whole "ki bio-sphere" thing, that nearly every Saiyan has done many times.

Why even bring up character mind-sets? If they were in character, Goku would end up training Naruto, and shit on Madara and evil characters. They wouldn't be fighting at all. However, this is a vs. forum, so they WANT to kill each other, meaning Goku yawns and the HST is gone.

First you say its a stomp, then you say it isnt, now its back to being a stomp. You might as well start writing for mitt romney with all the flip flopping.


Since when does goku not need air to live?

And since when is immune to disease.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But he is immune to cuts, or needing to breathe, on account of the whole "ki bio-sphere" thing, that nearly every Saiyan has done many times.

Why even bring up character mind-sets? If they were in character, Goku would end up training Naruto, and shit on Madara and evil characters. They wouldn't be fighting at all. However, this is a vs. forum, so they WANT to kill each other, meaning Goku yawns and the HST is gone.

You do know that Torune's bugs, along with both Magellan and Mayuri's poison don't need an open wound to take affect. Out of those three only Torune's bugs would be escapable. Mayuri's poison can be absorbed through the skin, same as Magellan's so neither of them need Goku to actually inhale it.

Mindset is brought up because the thread maker doesn't specify a particular state of mind that Goku is in. Therefore with CIS on, the chance for this version of Goku is indeed possible. Remember he's limited to only his base form.

Urahara could also put those cuffs on goku and force goku's energy back on himself.

When has the shown the ability to manipulate that level of energy?

What's the greatest amount of energy he's manipulated

Still waiting for the rule where CIS applies by default unless specified otherwise by the OP

Originally posted by StealthRanger
When has the shown the ability to manipulate that level of energy?

What's the greatest amount of energy he's manipulated

Still waiting for the rule where CIS applies by default unless specified otherwise by the OP

Your power is sent back on yourself thats how it works. So i dont have to show you that.

Anybody with those on would die. Only reason aizen lived is brcause the hogyoku shielded him from it.

Also another way goku could lose is if kabuto and oro summon edo tensei. Goku would be fighting them forever and his energy is not unlimited hed use up all his energy and grow fatigued allowing an opening for a multitude of things to happen

>NLF

Oh Jesus Christ, show him redirecting energy that happens to exceed everything in the HST combined

Show me an Edo tanking a planet buster then we can talk

Waiting for the wonderful feat where they redirect the energy of a guy who can slug say, petatons of energy

Or where an edo tanks and regens from said level of energy

Originally posted by StealthRanger
>NLF

Oh Jesus Christ, show him redirecting energy that happens to exceed everything in the HST combined

Show me an Edo tanking a planet buster then we can talk

That would imply that Goku can instantly planet bust: he can't as demonstrated in the series when deflecting other planet busters.

Okay I'll give you the planet busting attacks working on Edo's only due to the BFR that would result from it. However Madara survived being flattened by a meteor and disintegration thanks to Edo regen. Also Goku doesn't have anything that would permanently put an Edo down other than say planet busting.

As for mindset, if not specified its generally assumed on the forums that characters act in character which is why someone like say Thor doesn't just go blitzing everybody. Situations in which Goku acts both in character and bloodlusted can both be suggested here.

All of this means that if Goku act in character, he's in danger of falling into one of the hax from the respective 3 verses: Aizen, Sugar, Obito, Danzo, Shisui, Itachi, Kuma, Gremmy(to a much lesser extent), Mayuri & Magellan's poison would all damper Goku's chance. To be specific if Koto Amatsukami can be place on Goku then the fight for the HST is won.

If he's out of character and blows everything up, then that would net a win for him. Which means we keep going back to mother****ing mindset

>deflects planet busters
>says Goku can't planet bust instantly

...

Still waiting for the entire "he needs to charge attacks for a long time to planet bust" gem



No, it's because they've never shown to regen from that level of damage before

They haven't tanked continent busters and regen'd from those



I'm not entirely familiar with the rules of the section, can pleeeeaaaaase show me where they're stated to be in character by default?

Besides, they're fighting to the death, fighting to win

Who says Thor doesn't go around blitzing people exactly?



Or you could just accept that the HST is garbage tier to even country busters, let alone Saiyan Saga DBZ chars. Just a thought

Seriously, this is ****ing ridiculous as hell :geg

Theres just tooooooooo much hax


Goku is not unbeatable. There is strength in numbers.


Oh and did i mention hax

Originally posted by StealthRanger
>deflects planet busters
>says Goku can't planet bust instantly

...

Still waiting for the entire "he needs to charge attacks for a long time to planet bust" gem

The best example of Goku quickly blocking a planet buster was done in the Namekian saga as a Super Saiyan.

I'm tempted to do just that. However I would like to point out that Goku's beam clash with Vegeta wasn't instant. And since he hasn't really been hit with any other planet busting attacks at base it really hard to say anything else about it

Originally posted by StealthRanger



No, it's because they've never shown to regen from that level of damage before

They haven't tanked continent busters and regen'd from those


The can't because nobody has hit them with such a level of attack. However surviving disintegration is still a valid feat in the Edo regen court.

Originally posted by StealthRanger

I'm not entirely familiar with the rules of the section, can pleeeeaaaaase show me where they're stated to be in character by default?

Besides, they're fighting to the death, fighting to win

Who says Thor doesn't go around blitzing people exactly?


Its more of an unofficial unspoken rule for CIS. However research on character mindsets and abilities is required as outlined in the guidelines: which is one of the causes for that unofficial judgment coming to pass. That has stayed mostly intact over the years.

Originally posted by StealthRanger

Or you could just accept that the HST is garbage tier to even country busters, let alone Saiyan Saga DBZ chars. Just a thought

Seriously, this is ****ing ridiculous as hell :geg

Goku has been hurt by less just putting it out there. And stuff like Goku needing oxygen and not immune to disease/toxins/mind-rape is always viable means of attack.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
>deflects planet busters
>says Goku can't planet bust instantly

...

Still waiting for the entire "he needs to charge attacks for a long time to planet bust" gem



No, it's because they've never shown to regen from that level of damage before

They haven't tanked continent busters and regen'd from those



I'm not entirely familiar with the rules of the section, can pleeeeaaaaase show me where they're stated to be in character by default?

Besides, they're fighting to the death, fighting to win

Who says Thor doesn't go around blitzing people exactly?



Or you could just accept that the HST is garbage tier to even country busters, let alone Saiyan Saga DBZ chars. Just a thought

Seriously, this is ****ing ridiculous as hell :geg


The edo tensei have been disintegrated by a molecular dismantiling jutsu.

They were reduced to literally nothing and came back. They are bound to the living world and they only way to get rid of them is for the caster to dispel the jutsu.

Originally posted by chasedown
Theres just tooooooooo much hax


Goku is not unbeatable. There is strength in numbers.


Oh and did i mention hax

Hax which will be useful, barring desperate resorts to CIS..... before or after he glasses the place

Oh indeed, Goku isn't unbeatable. Unfortunately the HST is not in his weight class



If they haven't, then they can't. Simple

As for regenerating from disintegration, that sure helped ****ers like Cell and Buu amirite?







Such as?

Seriously, get over it. Goku (and DBZ characters in general) are so far above the HST to the point where they can just hover above them and mop it up in one go. No amount of desperate pleas to CIS will change anything



Regenerating from nothing would imply they were annihilated (in the literal sense) and had their souls and minds destroyed. This was not the case



>NLF

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Hax which will be useful, barring desperate resorts to CIS..... before or after he glasses the place

Oh indeed, Goku isn't unbeatable. Unfortunately the HST is not in his weight class



If they haven't, then they can't. Simple

As for regenerating from disintegration, that sure helped ****ers like Cell and Buu amirite?







Such as?

Seriously, get over it. Goku (and DBZ characters in general) are so far above the HST to the point where they can just hover above them and mop it up in one go. No amount of desperate pleas to CIS will change anything



Regenerating from nothing would imply they were annihilated (in the literal sense) and had their souls and minds destroyed. This was not the case



>NLF


The edo bodies were reduced past a molecular level which is a greater regen feat then cell who regenerates when brain cells are intact. If you didnt know molecules are smaller than cells. Kid buu and cell both died after being disintergrated they didnt come back.

Their souls being bound to the living plane has nothing to do with a no limits fallacy thats just how the jutsu works. Casters from the naruto verse have said the same thing. And proof is madara who remained edo even after kabuto dispelled the jutsu

Originally posted by StealthRanger



If they haven't, then they can't. Simple

As for regenerating from disintegration, that sure helped ****ers like Cell and Buu amirite?


Cell and Buu haven't regenerated form disintegration whereas Edo Tensei zombies have the capacity to. That would actually be a point in the HST teams favor.

Also considering the functionality of the justu its quite possible for them to tank it provided the attack itself negates Edo regen such as what Obito and Madara can do.


Originally posted by StealthRanger








http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f104/t504517.html

lines 1,2 and 6 cover general research and posting information on character feats, abilities, or additional knowledge that would affect the outcome of the fight.


Originally posted by StealthRanger

Such as?

Seriously, get over it. Goku (and DBZ characters in general) are so far above the HST to the point where they can just hover above them and mop it up in one go. No amount of desperate pleas to CIS will change anything


The fact that Goku can still drown, the Special Beam Canon, being crushed by Great Ape Vegeta, lava( the HSt has a guy that can turn into the stuff), and the fact that his immune system isn't unbeatable.

CIS is still valid if nothing is specified by the thread maker, which keeps looping all arguments back to mindset. And considering this is only base Goku, the chances of him glassing the entire planet in one go can be challenged.




Originally posted by StealthRanger

Regenerating from nothing would imply they were annihilated (in the literal sense) and had their souls and minds destroyed. This was not the case
>NLF

Not quite. Goku's only done complete annihilation with the Spirit Bomb against a pure evil character. And in cases of the Spirit Bomb using the "it takes time to charge" argument is indeed valid. Using equivalency rule only removes the restriction it has on what the Spirit Bomb can affect.

Even if he could do that in base form due to how Edo Tensei works, they would still regenerate.

Remember this is the same Goku that struggled with 40 tons( though I was never sure if that included the higher gravity of the Kai planet). Blitzing however is a sound argument unless characters like Kizaru and Enel are brought up...then it gets a tad difficult.

Instant Transmission will definitely help him outdo HST and the stronger he gets the faster he'll be.

Originally posted by atv2
Instant Transmission will definitely help him outdo HST and the stronger he gets the faster he'll be.


Read the first post this is goku before ssj1

Raditz solos. No one in the hst can keep up with mach 50 flying speed

Originally posted by OhLawdyLawd
Raditz solos. No one in the hst can keep up with mach 50 flying speed

What? Not only is Raditz LUDICROUSLY faster than that, but the HST characters aside from Bleach are faster too.

Naruto verse puts up the best fight, but Raditz would still win. If not normally, then definitely as a great ape.

Start of Z Piccolo Solos since he is a casual Moon buster

And Raditz is much faster then mach 50

Roshi and Crane can effortlessly catch machine gun bullet point blank, Yet 22nd Goku completely disappeared from there vision. And the list of biltzs goes on and on and on.

Raditz should be 5 digits low end

Everyone on this thread arguing in favor of the HST is retarded.

1. Goku could simply hover in outer space and nuke them without any effort.

2. He could tank literally every attack presented in all of the HST, including hax such as Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Zaraki's shikai, Yama's bankai, etc. This is non-debatable, as he has feats of tanking temperatures surpassing 11 times that of the suns core in Dragon ball, and can tank galaxy+ busting/potency attacks casually in base form. As well as shrug off genjutsu or illusions with said galaxy-universe potency ki.

3. Destroy any given planet they're on, or vaporize them all at once, before any of them can launch the synapses in their brains to perceive that a fight has started. Goku outran light as a kid. Even Naruto currently peaks at light speed, being the fastest out of the HST. Nuff said.

4. The fact that none of the HST possess Earth level destruction capacity. None of them could hurt Cui, for gods sake. Recoome could tank the entirety of the HST's offense, Goku would just sleep through it.

5. And last but not least, the CIS argument is just sad. Not for the simple fact that Goku could tank all of their attacks, or overcome-power them, even IF he was dumb enough(which he, blood-lusted aside, might be) to let them get their attacks off. The reason it's stupid, is because Goku with CIS applied, wouldn't be fighting in the first place. He would train them, if anything.

GG

Stopped reading at 'galaxy/universe at base'. Guessing the usual came up in that.


Anyhow curious as to where the temp came from.

trasport goku to another dimension or poison him, or teleport respira inside him and goku will lose...... theres to much hax in the hst for base goku

Or Goku just nukes them before they can process a thought, how the **** this has gone on for 7 pages is beyond me

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Or Goku just nukes them before they can process a thought, how the **** this has gone on for 7 pages is beyond me


goku wouldnt do that thats not in his character.... also there are some people that would be able to survive said blast by using their unique abilities or being immortal....also in order to destroy the earth in base mode there would be a charge time allowing openings for the hst to take advantage of.

Or barragan could age the blast, or ppl within the hst could teleport the blast away a numerous amount of ways

also explain to me how base goku gets out of kotoamatsukami.

You know what else is out of character? HST heroes converging on Goku, but for the sake of the thread, it has to happen.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
You know what else is out of character? HST heroes converging on Goku, but for the sake of the thread, it has to happen.

Somebody sounds hurt at the thought of goku losing lol

Originally posted by chasedown
Somebody sounds hurt at the thought of goku losing lol

Not really. It's just a sorry argument to suggest one can't operate out of character in a situation that effectively places everyone there.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Not really. It's just a sorry argument to suggest one can't operate out of character in a situation that effectively places everyone there.

Unless the thread maker states goku is blood lusted he cant act out of character and blow up the earth.... Otherwise they wouldnt be fighting the real goku

Originally posted by chasedown
Unless the thread maker states goku is blood lusted he cant act out of character and blow up the earth.... Otherwise they wouldnt be fighting the real goku

They're not fighting the real Goku anyways. The OP states that anything beyond SS1 is disallowed.

Originally posted by chasedown
goku wouldnt do that thats not in his character.... also there are some people that would be able to survive said blast by using their unique abilities or being immortal....also in order to destroy the earth in base mode there would be a charge time allowing openings for the hst to take advantage of.

Yeah, still waiting for where anyone in the HST survives a planet buster. Don't need to go through the effort because I know there are none at all

Why destroy the earth, just glass the ****ing surface, planet remains intact, ???, profit :maybe

HST are way to slow to keep up with Goku anways, add in Kaioken, yeah



Barragn couldn't age Soifon's weak attacks, why would he be able to age a Kamehameha? Even Pre-Saiyan Saga chars were Mach 89. Add in the Kaioken, plus the fact SS chars would me much faster then their Pre-SS selves, yeah



Teleport something they can't react to to begin with? Good luck with that



Just going to throw out there that Shenron was unable to hax Nappa and Vegeta due to them being overwhelmingly more powerful than him. Make of that what you will

Or just punch/ki blast the bastard to death

But really, this isn't FactPile where we'd argue it to over the ****ing hills and back again despite the blatantly obvious. What is obvious is Goku has the strength, speed, durability and destructive capacity advantage over everybody here, has the AoE to wipe out the entire verse with an attack along with it's inhabitants before they can react. No if's, buts or anything else's about it

Bloodlusted goku wins easily by blowing up the earth unfortunatly he isnt because it wasnt stated by the thread maker thats how forum vs battles go on every forum site whether you guys like it or not. He was stated to be unable to go past ssj1.


Now that is out of the way here are the facts. Since goku is not bloodlusted that leaves opportunity for a number of thing to occur do you guys really think goku is immune to mental attacks like genjutsu, or poison or dimensional travel.

Within all three series their are master strategists within the hst even of the waaaaaay more smarter than goku shikamaru in seconds can think of more 100 different scenarios. If You guys dont think him his father shukaku, kakashi, madara obito, the other notable uchiha clan members, the kage , aizen and the espada, juha bach and the stern ritters, the soul king and the zero squad and everyone in one piece i dont feel like typing not to mention the few immortals within all 3 cant come up with a strategy to fight goku then the fanboyism is worse than previously thought.

Originally posted by chasedown
Bloodlusted goku wins easily by blowing up the earth unfortunatly he isnt because it wasnt stated by the thread maker thats how forum vs battles go on every forum site whether you guys like it or not. He was stated to be unable to go past ssj1.



Sure about that sonny boy? Don't see any mention of CIS being applied

"Every forum site?" Honest question here, how many forums do you go to? or even lurk?

Nobody considers CIS (except FactPile, though according to them Jedah can't solo God of War and Dante can beat Goku, among other things). We're talking a fight to the death, i'd use that witty remark on the OBD, but we don't have such a name I could think of to weasel the whole "Outskirts Battledome not Outskirts Writingdome" esque remark into KMC's name

****, Impediment in the MVF even said that character counts for nothing in vs debates due to it not being stated anywhere (Superman vs Voldemort I believe)

SSJ1>>Final Form Frieza. You honestly think that restricting anything beyond that means a damn thing?



Well hey if a planetary scale reality warper admits haxing SS level chars away is beyond his ability, well you could see what I'm getting at



Yeah, if he sees multiple people trying to fight him, and he has the AoE to glass the surface even, even if he isn't the smartest guy in town, you'd think someone who has the AoE to engulf the planet and kill the verse with an attack to his advantage against a shitload of people, oh and assuming Goku will just let his opponents attack first

Also

>uses the whole CIS excuse to say Goku won't blow them to smithereens
>brings up any number of powers the HST and assumes they'll be used right off the bat to "instapwn"

If you're going to bring something up, at least try to be consistent about your standards rather than try to nerf your opponents to weasel a win for the side you're arguing for

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Sure about that sonny boy? Don't see any mention of CIS being applied

"Every forum site?" Honest question here, how many forums do you go to? or even lurk?

Nobody considers CIS (except FactPile, though according to them Jedah can't solo God of War and Dante can beat Goku, among other things). We're talking a fight to the death, i'd use that witty remark on the OBD, but we don't have such a name I could think of to weasel the whole "Outskirts Battledome not Outskirts Writingdome" esque remark into KMC's name

****, Impediment in the MVF even said that character counts for nothing in vs debates due to it not being stated anywhere (Superman vs Voldemort I believe)

SSJ1>>Final Form Frieza. You honestly think that restricting anything beyond that means a damn thing?



Well hey if a planetary scale reality warper admits haxing SS level chars away is beyond his ability, well you could see what I'm getting at



Yeah, if he sees multiple people trying to fight him, and he has the AoE to glass the surface even, even if he isn't the smartest guy in town, you'd think someone who has the AoE to engulf the planet and kill the verse with an attack to his advantage against a shitload of people, oh and assuming Goku will just let his opponents attack first

Also

>uses the whole CIS excuse to say Goku won't blow them to smithereens
>brings up any number of powers the HST and assumes they'll be used right off the bat to "instapwn"

If you're going to bring something up, at least try to be consistent about your standards rather than try to nerf your opponents to weasel a win for the side you're arguing for

Everyone agrees that goku full powered bloodlusted would stomp noone disagrees with that unfortunately he isnt so stop crying.

The thread is can the WHOLE hst beat goku limited to ssj1.

And yes they can its the whole entire catalog from 3 different verses with hax abilities like the totsuka blade and kyoka suigetsu to name another two, damn near everybody in the three verses is smarter intellect wise than goku, a few of them are immortal so goku would run out of energy before he could kill them, the thought that the WHOLE hst couldnt come up with a strategy against a limited goku is sheer ludacris and fanboyism at its best.

The ones that are immortal, Goku can toss them out of orbit for the easy win.

Originally posted by carver9
The ones that are immortal, Goku can toss them out of orbit for the easy win.


Lol smh how does being in space kill an ommortal (face palm)

I guess logic doesnt apply to fanboys

I guess not since "immortality = unstoppable." If that were the case, Ganondorf would never lose a fight. Besides, there are different types of immortality, so to arbitrarily throw it around like it's universally a definite, unlimited state of existence is demonstrably fallacious.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
I guess not since "immortality = unstoppable." If that were the case, Ganondorf would never lose a fight. Besides, there are different types of immortality, so to arbitrarily throw it around like it's universally a definite, unlimited state of existence is demonstrably fallacious.


Again how does being in space kill an immortal

Originally posted by yungz22
Again how does being in space kill an immortal

How do they operate in space?

Pay attention, man. I told you already there are variations of immortality; some of which can be circumvented with something as simple as sufficient raw power (i.e. Shadow the Hedgehog) to as complex as divine process (I.e. Ganondorf).

Immortality is NOT universally perfect, and your not kidding anyone to the contrary.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
How do they operate in space?

Pay attention, man. I told you already there are variations of immortality; some of which can be circumvented with something as simple as sufficient raw power (i.e. Shadow the Hedgehog) to as complex as divine process (I.e. Ganondorf).

Immortality is NOT universally perfect, and your not kidding anyone to the contrary.

So you think kaguya and aizen would die just from being in space?

They both teleport back to earth. Problem solved.

Originally posted by yungz22
So you think kaguya and aizen would die just from being in space?

Instead of missing the point and trying to put words in my mouth (irrelevant to anything I said), how about describing their immortality instead of desperately declaring they're without limit? (I'll feel really bad for you if I have to keep providing examples.)

Originally posted by chasedown
Everyone agrees that goku full powered bloodlusted would stomp noone disagrees with that unfortunately he isnt so stop crying.

The thread is can the WHOLE hst beat goku limited to ssj1.

And yes they can its the whole entire catalog from 3 different verses with hax abilities like the totsuka blade and kyoka suigetsu to name another two, damn near everybody in the three verses is smarter intellect wise than goku, a few of them are immortal so goku would run out of energy before he could kill them, the thought that the WHOLE hst couldnt come up with a strategy against a limited goku is sheer ludacris and fanboyism at its best.

Still waiting for where CIS is applied by default. OP sure as hell didn't say that

Still not seeing why limited to SSJ1 matters. Unless you believe the HST cannot beat Frieza, in which case you'd be a ****ing idiot

And yeah, immortality isn't some "immune to his attacks card, let alone attacks that exceed the HST by a gigatic margain" button, there are different types of immortality, you know

No, sheer fanboyism would be saying Goku could beat ****ers like Dark Schneider, TTGL, Pegasus Seiya, etc, and I'm not the kind of guy who argues this shit, but HST?

http://fdzeta.com/imgcache/23170.imgcache.gif

Yeah, any debating board would laugh you out of there and desperate resorts to CIS won't change a damn thing outcome-wise

Dat .gif... haermm

Oh, meant to say unless you believe the HST *can* beat Frieza. My bad

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Oh, meant to say unless you believe the HST *can* beat Frieza. My bad

How would goku kill an immortal like kaguya and the sage of six paths who live in more than one dimesion at once?

Speaking io Dimensions, how would he handle Rimbo?

Also, Sasuke just got another power up. He's probably superior to Sage Madara as it stands.

Originally posted by yungz22
How would goku kill an immortal like kaguya and the sage of six paths who live in more than one dimesion at once?

That's literally not even in response to what he said. As for the point of contingency, would you try actually, I don't know, COHERENTLY ADDRESSING IT?

We've told you already that immortality is not a perfect status, and you continue to cling to it despite that. Until you cease ignoring that point simply because it disagrees with your selective misinterpretation, you have no case.

As it stands, it honestly wouldn't surprise me to heat you say that her being "immortal' means she could somehow beat the following:

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Dark Schneider, TTGL, Pegasus Seiya

Originally posted by Sacred 117
That's literally not even in response to what he said. As for the point of contingency, would you try actually, I don't know, COHERENTLY ADDRESSING IT?

We've told you already that immortality is not a perfect status, and you continue to cling to it despite that. Until you cease ignoring that point simply because it disagrees with your selective misinterpretation, you have no case.

As it stands, it honestly wouldn't surprise me to heat you say that her being "immortal' means she could somehow beat the following:


Why does it matter that thre are different facets of immortality its irrelavant. you guys are beating around the bush


How can goku kill and immortal being like kaguya and the sage is my question? all the other stuff that you guys post is irrelavant and beating around the bush