Whats the cutoff point between Meta and Herald?

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TheLordofMurder
Before I get started, I gotta thank zopzop for his excellent thoughts that have lead to the creation of this thread...well done good sir! smile

Ok, now to get started...


Ask yourself, whats seperates (or rather what SHOULD seperate) Heralds from High Meta's?

Just think about that for a moment...

Is it combat feats? Is it versatility? Is it raw displays of incredible power? What is it?


In zopzop'z mind (and I wholeheartedly endorse his thoughts on this) it should be raw displays of power that seperate the two...

When I think Herald, I think of characters with atleast Class 100 Strength and matching durability...

I think of characters with the ability to lift an island into orbit, manipulate matter and energy on a large scale, travel at speeds greater than light speed, or perform telepathy on a massive scale (theses are just examples; there are other powers/abilities/feat types that I'd consider Heraldish as well)...

In my minds eye, a true Herald level character need not be capable of all of the above abilities, but definitely should be capable of atleast some of them (or the equivalent)...


As the tiers are currently formed, it seems to me that combat feats and versatility have lead some characters to undeservingly be placed among the Heralds...

Some characters "matchup" better against others, so one character can possess significantly less raw power than another and still get a win...despite an inferior overall level of power.


I believe that needs to change; Dr Doom, Ironman, Dracula (and there are others) are all characters that are typically considered to be Herald level here, but all of them have something else in common; they all lack the extreme displays of power that I believe a true Herald level character should possess...

Yes, they all have some pretty good combat feats; all of them have the capability to defeat Heralds if they get the right matchup...

They are all versatile and can attack/defend themselves in various ways...

But they simply lack the raw power that "Low" (and I mean "Low" are pertains how they compare to other Heralds as these characters are actually quite powerful) Heralds like Air Walker, Charles Xavier, or even Frankie Raye have demostrated...


To summarize, I think we need to redraw the lines of what constitues a Herald and what consitutes a Meta (High Meta to be exact)...

Now, for your thoughts and thanks for taking the time to read this; I know its a bit lengthy...

smile

carver9
People we would have to throw out of the Herald, trans, and Skyfather tier.

Black Adam
Orion
Juggernaut
Sinestro
Zeus
Kurse
99% of DCNU characters
Bizzaro
Metallo
King Hyperion
Bruttal
Tyrant
Serpent
Loeb Red Hulk
All forms of Solomon Grundy
The General
Titus
Black Bolt
V&V Despero
DOS Doomsday

I can go one for days. This type of debating is false in so many ways.

zopzop
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Before I get started, I gotta thank zopzop for his excellent thoughts that have lead to the creation of this thread...well done good sir! smile

Ok, now to get started...


Ask yourself, whats seperates (or rather what SHOULD seperate) Heralds from High Meta's?

Just think about that for a moment...

Is it combat feats? Is it versatility? Is it raw displays of incredible power? What is it?


In zopzop'z mind (and I wholeheartedly endorse his thoughts on this) it should be raw displays of power that seperate the two...

When I think Herald, I think of characters with atleast Class 100 Strength and matching durability...

I think of characters with the ability to lift an island into orbit, manipulate matter and energy on a large scale, travel at speeds greater than light speed, or perform telepathy on a massive scale (theses are just examples; there are other powers/abilities/feat types that I'd consider Heraldish as well)...

In my minds eye, a true Herald level character need not be capable of all of the above abilities, but definitely should be capable of atleast some of them (or the equivalent)...


As the tiers are currently formed, it seems to me that combat feats and versatility have lead some characters to undeservingly be placed among the Heralds...

Some characters "matchup" better against others, so one character can possess significantly less raw power than another and still get a win...despite an inferior overall level of power.


I believe that needs to change; Dr Doom, Ironman, Dracula (and there are others) are all characters that are typically considered to be Herald level here, but all of them have something else in common; they all lack the extreme displays of power that I believe a true Herald level character should possess...

Yes, they all have some pretty good combat feats; all of them have the capability to defeat Heralds if they get the right matchup...

They are all versatile and can attack/defend themselves in various ways...

But they simply lack the raw power that "Low" (and I mean "Low" are pertains how they compare to other Heralds as these characters are actually quite powerful) Heralds like Air Walker, Charles Xavier, or even Frankie Raye have demostrated...


To summarize, I think we need to redraw the lines of what constitues a Herald and what consitutes a Meta (High Meta to be exact)...

Now, for your thoughts and thanks for taking the time to read this; I know its a bit lengthy...

smile
Don't forget LoM, that we also have to keep in mind how many times the character has appeared on panel. Those with longer histories obviously have more of an opportunity to show off their abilities.

Also, keep in mind that certain characters have the raw power of heralds, like Hulk, but lack a true herald's versatility.

For example : Hulk has herald level strength/stamina/durability but that's it.

LordofBrooklyn
Luke Cage is the gatekeeper for Marvel in terms of the cutoff.

maxivitopowe
always thought Iron Man was the cut off

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Luke Cage is the gatekeeper for Marvel in terms of the cutoff.

Luke Cage is low meta. he cant cause any real damage as far as real power output.
whats the best level of damage he can demonstrate? destroy a house? a low meta to me.

as far as the topic goes. many characters got good fighting showings based on either PIS or the right set up. however i do believe one level should be established by overal power output and damage potential.
someone like juggernaut for example (classic one) should be mid meta. why? he can take some damage thats his special thing, however whats the overall power output he has? he can destroy a house, a building... it took him like months to punch his way out of a mountain, and people call him herald? he can cause an earthquake on the richter level of 8 when hitting with both his arms full power as was shown in a comics. i think that should put him as mid meta leveler. high meta should be able to cause much more damage via power output like say destroy a whole block. a herald should be able to at least wipe out a whole city. high herald should be able to destroy a planet. trans levelers should be able to destroy stars and hit the galaxy power level.

i believe having exotic powers is cool, but you cant call someone a herald just because he got many cool looking powers like shooting beatiful colored beams and what ever. the overall power output of a character is what matters. when the character unleash all his power doesnt matter physical, energy , matter manipulation. what happens when everything the character has is unleashed. thats IMO is the scale.

pym-ftw
Pym/Stark

That's the line imo.

JuggernautMania
as for a character that is the limit between them, i believe it would be probably guys like savage hulk, hercules and maybe namor when he is full power. those are all low heralds that just passed the meta level of power.

carver9
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
as for a character that is the limit between them, i believe it would be probably guys like savage hulk, hercules and maybe namor when he is full power. those are all low heralds that just passed the meta level of power.

no expression

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by carver9
no expression

if you object something mention it and show why, otherwise dont be an ass and post faces when someone is typing his reasons and opinions.

carver9
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
if you object something mention it and show why, otherwise dont be an ass and post faces when someone is typing his reasons and opinions.

I'm tired of correcting people of the same cr**, I mean,stuff. Hulk is clearly high Herald, hell, sometime he operates above those levels, and you deemed him as a low Herald. If you're doing that, you might as well include HP Doomsday as well since you are basing your argument off versatility. If that's the case, people like Hyperion, Superman, and Gladiator should be low to mid Heralds since they don't have as close to the versaitkity as people like Surfer, Thor, and Genis. Also, where would you rank people like Black Adam and Captain Marvel? Remember, versatility is the key.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
I'm tired of correcting people of the same cr**, I mean,stuff. Hulk is clearly high Herald, hell, sometime he operates above those levels, and you deemed him as a low Herald. If you're doing that, you might as well include HP Doomsday as well since you are basing your argument off versatility. If that's the case, people like Hyperion, Superman, and Gladiator should be low to mid Heralds since they don't have as close to the versaitkity as people like Surfer, Thor, and Genis. Also, where would you rank people like Black Adam and Captain Marvel? Remember, versatility is the key.

funny enough how you ***** about people dissing hulk only a few posts after you diss "99% of the dcnu".

Yes, I said funny.

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by carver9
I'm tired of correcting people of the same cr**, I mean,stuff. Hulk is clearly high Herald, hell, sometime he operates above those levels, and you deemed him as a low Herald. If you're doing that, you might as well include HP Doomsday as well since you are basing your argument off versatility. If that's the case, people like Hyperion, Superman, and Gladiator should be low to mid Heralds since they don't have as close to the versaitkity as people like Surfer, Thor, and Genis. Also, where would you rank people like Black Adam and Captain Marvel? Remember, versatility is the key.

when hulk goes nutts whats the best thing he can do with his punches? i am talking about savage hulk. WWH and WBH are on a different level IMO. HP Doomsday is on another level. he demonstrated physical abilities that clearly put him as someone who can destroy a planet. aside of that destroying teams of heralds is something only a trans can do. you dont see hulk destroying causally teams of heralds do you? again average savage hulk.

i never said i am basing my argument on versatility, if your anus hurts from the "versatility" argument everybody are putting on hulk dont blame it on me. i dont care about versatility, i care only about the overall power output of a character. thats why i believe WBH is Trans leveler and easily. Gladitor destroyed a planet with his hands thats a high herald level showing.

again i never said versatility, this proved me only one thing, you did not even bother to read my initial post and skipped only to the one where i named several names. the joke is on you, next time get rid of the ADHD and read everything a person says before you respond.

pym-ftw
Savage Hulk destroyed an asteroid larger than the Earth, and made a legacy out of beating up the avengers.

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Savage Hulk destroyed an asteroid larger than the Earth, and made a legacy out of beating up the avengers.

beating up avangers =\= beating up team of heralds.

it was grey hulk and it was hyperbole. he was sling shoted to space to meet the astroid. i hate those 1 time dumb showins from the 70s 80s because people are choosing when do draw them even thought they know themselves its just BS. overall savage hulk can destroy an area i believe city size, i dont believe he can destroy a planet unless he gets angrier and more powerful. i believe his WWH levels can meet up with the Mid heralds requirements. WBH Version Trans Level.

pym-ftw
He has always been depicted as stronger than Thor, who has demonstrated planetary power.

Lulz at the avengers not being a team of heralds.

carver9
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
beating up avangers =\= beating up team of heralds.

it was grey hulk and it was hyperbole. he was sling shoted to space to meet the astroid. i hate those 1 time dumb showins from the 70s 80s because people are choosing when do draw them even thought they know themselves its just BS. overall savage hulk can destroy an area i believe city size, i dont believe he can destroy a planet unless he gets angrier and more powerful. i believe his WWH levels can meet up with the high heralds requirements.


The sling shot didn't do anything but send him into space and Hulk on many of occasions fought against the Avengers, hell, Hulk recently took on Thor, Ironman, and Cap by himself while trying to talk some sense into them. Before this, he took on the entire click and held his own, and yes, I'm talking about Savage.

Is destroying a planet the key? If so, you better exclude a LOT of people on your list of Heralds. Hell, Savage Hulk has fts better than destroying a planet, even though his weaker self destroyed something twice the size of Earth. Also, lets not forget about him powering through a planetary blast on multiples of occasions.

abhilegend
Originally posted by pym-ftw
He has always been depicted as stronger than Thor, who has demonstrated planetary power.

Lulz at the avengers not being a team of heralds.
Thor has rarely shown planetary level strength. Its not his average strength. Hell, its not an average strength level for any character.

Avengers isn't a team of heralds, that's JLA/Defenders' role.

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by carver9
The sling shot didn't do anything but send him into space and Hulk on many of occasions fought against the Avengers, hell, Hulk recently took on Thor, Ironman, and Cap by himself while trying to talk some sense into them. Before this, he took on the entire click and held his own, and yes, I'm talking about Savage.

Is destroying a planet the key? If so, you better exclude a LOT of people on your list of Heralds. Hell, Savage Hulk has fts better than destroying a planet, even though his weaker self destroyed something twice the size of Earth. Also, lets not forget about him powering through a planetary blast on multiples of occasions.

slingshot gave velocity and speed . he was basically an object hitting the astroid rather than his own power output. however as i stated thats a BS 70s 80s 1 time showing like many characters has. as i stated before taking down the avengers does not mean beating up a team that consist of good rounded heralds. he only took thor a high herald and iron man a high meta. cap? Lol.

the overall power output to destroy a whole planet is a key to establish one as fitting the herald category in my book yes. you bring hulk taking blasts that can destroy a planet? first of all as i stated i talk about power output not damage soak. classic juggernaut can take huge levels of punishment, doesnt mean i should put him as high herald when it takes him several month to punch his way out of a mountain. hulk can whitstand things via healing factor. wolverine can take blasts that can destroy a city. so wolverine is low herald now? aside of that can you prove that the blasts that were shot at hulk were at the level of destroying a planet? because if its something like lets say thor hitting him with a blast, can you prove everything he had was put into the blast and the blast wasnt just there to give hulk a fight but no cause any real damage?

zopzop
Originally posted by abhilegend
Thor has rarely shown planetary level strength. Its not his average strength. Hell, its not an average strength level for any character.
But Hulk, Thor, and Superman can lift tremendous weights (ignore the planetary stuff for one second). You think Dracula, just using him as an example, could have braced that mountain range Molecule Man dropped on the heroes in Secret Wars? Can Dracula travel to another planet? Can he survive solar temps and pressures? Etc...

Could Iron Man?


Hickman's current roster of 10000 Avengers is the exception. On average you're right, the Avengers aren't a team of heralds.

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by pym-ftw
He has always been depicted as stronger than Thor, who has demonstrated planetary power.

Lulz at the avengers not being a team of heralds.

thor doesnt have planet level strength showings. thor overall can bust a planet with mjolnir+all his godly powers. but strength alone? strength alone he is on hercules level and a low herald via strength alone.

and who are the heralds on the avengers? thor is the only one to be honest. hulk took on thor iron man and captain america. thor high herald. iron man? in my book he is a high meta that is perhaps making it to the low herald. and Cap? are you serious?

Tony Stark
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Pym/Stark

That's the line imo.


Pym is mid-meta at best while Iron Man is low-herald at worst

abhilegend
Originally posted by zopzop

But Hulk, Thor, and Superman can lift tremendous weights (ignore the planetary stuff for one second). You think Dracula, just using him as an example, could have braced that mountain range Molecule Man dropped on the heroes in Secret Wars? Can Dracula travel to another planet? Can he survive solar temps and pressures? Etc...

Could Iron Man?


Hickman's current roster of 10000 Avengers is the exception. On average you're right, the Avengers aren't a team of heralds.
I don't think Dracula is a herald, so no I don't think so. He has taken it to Thor/Surfer/Dr. Strange and gave them a good fight though, so high meta is a good measure.

Also Superman can lift pretty much anything you can throw at him.

maxivitopowe
Can someone close this thread?

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Pym is mid-meta at best while Iron Man is low-herald at worst

can iron man destroy a whole city?

deathslash
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
Luke Cage is low meta. he cant cause any real damage as far as real power output.
whats the best level of damage he can demonstrate? destroy a house? a low meta to me.
erm More recently, Luke Cage has shown the ability to create shockwaves with his punches and he has dozens of feats where he has beaten/ held his own against mid meta/ high herald level characters. I'm pretty certain that Cage is a high meta.

Back on topic, I think being a herald is determined by a mixture of raw power and combat feats.

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by deathslash
erm More recently, Luke Cage has shown the ability to create shockwaves with his punches and he has dozens of feats where he has beaten/ held his own against mid meta/ high herald level characters. I'm pretty certain that Cage is a high meta.

Back on topic, I think being a herald is determined by a mixture of raw power and combat feats.

i knew people like you will show up, the ones who are dazed by preety pictures and cool showings. i will ask again, what the max damage potential cage can unleash? destroy a house? whats his overall power? cage is unleashed and going all out with his punches, by feats whats the best he can do? yep as i said low meta.

Combat feats consist of many PIS moments in order to make a decent story. by combat feats spider man matched hulk atc atc atc i can begin and it will never end.
unless combat feats are consistant such as someone who does something on daily basis such as destroy teams and so on. Luke Cage is a high meta? you clearly dont know anything about power levels and their definition. i find it nothing but funny as hell that you put luke cage as someone who can destroy a whole city. you clearly dont know the definition of a high meta and you make up your own.

pym-ftw
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
thor doesnt have planet level strength showings. thor overall can bust a planet with mjolnir+all his godly powers. but strength alone? strength alone he is on hercules level and a low herald via strength alone.

and who are the heralds on the avengers? thor is the only one to be honest. hulk took on thor iron man and captain america. thor high herald. iron man? in my book he is a high meta that is perhaps making it to the low herald. and Cap? are you serious? yes he does from lifting planetary weight vs Kang to lifting the worlds tree to cracking a planet & moon vs Gorr

Vision, Wonderman, Dr. Strange,...

Do you guys really need me to name every Herald that is/was an avengers to show Hulk is a high heraldOriginally posted by Tony Stark
Pym is mid-meta at best while Iron Man is low-herald at worst the fact you disagree with me makes me feel correct

Reflassshh
Tony is low herald AT BEST.

pym-ftw
No

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by pym-ftw
yes he does from lifting planetary weight vs Kang to lifting the worlds tree to cracking a planet & moon vs Gorr

Vision, Wonderman, Dr. Strange,...

Do you guys really need me to name every Herald that is/was an avengers to show Hulk is a high herald the fact you disagree with me makes me feel correct

what planetary weight? please dont tell me you are talking about thor fishing the serpent thats just too funny.

cracking a moon with mjolnir? its not the same as destroying a planet with your bare hands.

wonderman is not a herald. vision is not herald. dr strange via PIS or Plot device.

i will say it again. average savage hulk cant pull out the power output to destroy a planet. i see him destroying a city in complete rampage thats why i put his as low herald. but i dont see him doing more than that unless he gets angrier.

JuggernautMania
Originally posted by pym-ftw
No

can tony destroy a planet?

maxivitopowe
Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Can someone close this thread?

pym-ftw
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
can tony destroy a planet? is Brainiac street level?

carver9
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
slingshot gave velocity and speed . he was basically an object hitting the astroid rather than his own power output. however as i stated thats a BS 70s 80s 1 time showing like many characters has. as i stated before taking down the avengers does not mean beating up a team that consist of good rounded heralds. he only took thor a high herald and iron man a high meta. cap? Lol.

the overall power output to destroy a whole planet is a key to establish one as fitting the herald category in my book yes. you bring hulk taking blasts that can destroy a planet? first of all as i stated i talk about power output not damage soak. classic juggernaut can take huge levels of punishment, doesnt mean i should put him as high herald when it takes him several month to punch his way out of a mountain. hulk can whitstand things via healing factor. wolverine can take blasts that can destroy a city. so wolverine is low herald now? aside of that can you prove that the blasts that were shot at hulk were at the level of destroying a planet? because if its something like lets say thor hitting him with a blast, can you prove everything he had was put into the blast and the blast wasnt just there to give hulk a fight but no cause any real damage?

So Nova could have destroy an asteroid twice the size of earth by flying into it?

Taking on Thor along with anyone else that is powerful as well is an insane ft within itself. Especially since all of them was trying to smoke him.

Lol...who said anything about Thor hitting Hulk with planetary power? And yes, I can prove it was planetary since it was stated on panel as being such.

Hulk has taken on every team in Marvel and has done well, if not beat them. He has thrashed Heralds as well. His status is clearly high Herald plus. You basing his power level off of him not being able to fly (even though his jumping power is pretty darn close) is ludicrous.

carver9
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
thor doesnt have planet level strength showings. thor overall can bust a planet with mjolnir+all his godly powers. but strength alone? strength alone he is on hercules level and a low herald via strength alone.

and who are the heralds on the avengers? thor is the only one to be honest. hulk took on thor iron man and captain america. thor high herald. iron man? in my book he is a high meta that is perhaps making it to the low herald. and Cap? are you serious?

Lol...that isn't the onky time he took on the Avengers.

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