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Many people believe Doctor Doom belongs in the Low Herald tier; something that I firmly disagree with...

So lets test that out against asorted True Low Heralds (Low Heralds that possess the raw power that I believe a Low Herald should possess) as per the tierings here at KMC...

This is NOT a gauntlet, so Dooms opponents are not arranged in any particular order, rather simply state how well he performs (in the "out of ten" sense) against the following True Low Heralds in a battle to the Death or KO with no Prep or BFR allowed...


1) Jack of Hearts...
2) Graviton...
3) Gorilla Grodd...
4) Nimrod...
5) Drax the Destroyer...
6) Death of Superman Doomsday...
7) Ultron...
8) Air Walker...
9) Frankie Raye...

Doom is a supreme badass and deserves all the credit he gets.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Doom is a supreme badass and deserves all the credit he gets.

You care to answer the question presented in the OP?

Also, do you mind supporting your belief that he can get wins against any of the above?

I see him having problems with Doomsday and Ultron. The rest he clears in my opinion.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I see him having problems with Doomsday and Ultron. The rest he clears in my opinion.

Ok lets hear it; how on Earth does he beat Jack of Hearts without prep for starters?

And before you go any further, know that Jack of Hearts is capable of this kind of display of raw power:

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And before you go any further, know that Jack of Hearts is capable of this kind of display of raw power:

Lol, well never mind then. Guess Jack wins.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Lol, well never mind then. Guess Jack wins.

No...lets keep going; according to you, Doom clears all of them except Doomsday and Ultron.

How does Doom defeat Drax the Destroyer sans prep?

Sorry you hate doom so much

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Sorry you hate doom so much

So you have nothing to support your belief...

Btw, I dont hate Doom; I am just convinced that he doesnt belong in the Low Herald tier...

Doctor Doom is a solid High Meta at best (and thats nothing to be shamed of btw as High Meta's can be pretty versatile and powerful in their own right)...

Clears.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Clears.

Based on?

Dr Doom has:

Beaten Adam Warlock and Magus, Dr Strange, Hulk, and a lot of other people.

He killed Molecule Man in a sneak attack. He rocked PR Beyonder. He rocked Uatu when Uatu had the Cosmic Cube. Among other things.

He may not have the collateral damage feats some of these people have, but he is by no means less powerful.

Doom needs some sort of Vampiric upgrade for this thread

Stops at Jack.
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Doom needs some sort of Vampiric upgrade for this thread
LOL. Oh you......

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Doom needs some sort of Vampiric upgrade for this thread

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Dr Doom has:

Beaten Adam Warlock and Magus, Dr Strange, Hulk, and a lot of other people.

He killed Molecule Man in a sneak attack. He rocked PR Beyonder. He rocked Uatu when Uatu had the Cosmic Cube. Among other things.

He may not have the collateral damage feats some of these people have, but he is by no means less powerful.

Didn't he also make Odin look bad?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Dr Doom has:

Beaten Adam Warlock and Magus, Dr Strange, Hulk, and a lot of other people.

He killed Molecule Man in a sneak attack. He rocked PR Beyonder. He rocked Uatu when Uatu had the Cosmic Cube. Among other things.

He may not have the collateral damage feats some of these people have, but he is by no means less powerful.

Doom is absolutely less powerful than the characters on this list...

Doom cant do what Jack or Drax can do sans prep...period.

And you are in denial if you actually consider Doom to be as powerful as DoS Doomsday; without a plot device, Doomsday is walking right though whatever Doom is able to generate, batters down his shielding, and kills him...period.

Doom is a High Meta; he lacks the raw power the characters on this list possess...


And remember, we go by average feats/showings; Doom rocking Uatu with a CC is nowhere near Dooms average (I'd argue that it was a PIS feat honestly)...

Once again, on average, he is not in the same class as the characters on this list...

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Doom needs some sort of Vampiric upgrade for this thread

He really does; he stands no chance without it...

@zopzop

This isnt a gauntlet; rather you argue how he performs against each of the characters on this list in a best of 10 battle...

And if he gets wins, what are you basing him getting wins upon...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@zopzop

This isnt a gauntlet; rather you argue how he performs against each of the characters on this list in a best of 10 battle...

And if he gets wins, what are you basing him getting wins upon...
Hmm there are lots of variables involved in something like that. Doom can get wins if he "magics" something up on the fly. Remember he is an accomplished mage.

Truth be told, that didn't help him much vs Iron Man. Oh well.

@Braylor Swift

This is what True Heralds do to Doom in a straight up fight sans prep for either side; they neutralize him with ease...

Terrax put a stop to Doom with a single attack:

Originally posted by zopzop
Hmm there are lots of variables involved in something like that. Doom can get wins if he "magics" something up on the fly. Remember he is an accomplished mage.

Truth be told, that didn't help him much vs Iron Man. Oh well.

Exactly, Doom isnt "True Low Herald" level tough/powerful...

He is absolutely a High Meta at best; he isnt at the same table as the big boys unless its a circumstantial situation or if he has prep (like when he "beat" Magus; it was fully circumstantial)...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Braylor Swift

This is what True Heralds do to Doom in a straight up fight sans prep for either side; they neutralize him with ease...

Terrax put a stop to Doom with a single attack:
Terrax actually killed the real Doom there. Not a machine, clone, or whatever. It took Beyonder to resurrect him.

Originally posted by zopzop
Terrax actually killed the real Doom there. Not a machine, clone, or whatever. It took Beyonder to resurrect him.

Well he destroyed the real Dooms body...

Didnt Doom transfer his mind into the body of an onlooker from the crowd?

@zopzop

Can you really see Doom having any success at all against DoS Doomsday sans prep or a plot device of some sort?

I cant...

Same goes with Ultron (who Doom had to manipulate Owen into stopping during the original Secret War as Doom knew he was doomed against on his own; Doom admitted this on panel)...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well he destroyed the real Dooms body...

Didnt Doom transfer his mind into the body of an onlooker from the crowd?
Yeah. But still, Doom made a run for it, LOL.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@zopzop

Can you really see Doom having any success at all against DoS Doomsday sans prep or a plot device of some sort?

I cant...

Same goes with Ultron (who Doom had to manipulate Owen into stopping during the original Secret War as Doom knew he was doomed against on his own; Doom admitted this on panel)...
Nope. I'm in agreement with you. Doom vs Doomsday, sans prep for Doom, would end in only one way : with Doom's painful death.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Doom is absolutely less powerful than the characters on this list...

Doom cant do what Jack or Drax can do sans prep...period.

And you are in denial if you actually consider Doom to be as powerful as DoS Doomsday; without a plot device, Doomsday is walking right though whatever Doom is able to generate, batters down his shielding, and kills him...period.

Doom is a High Meta; he lacks the raw power the characters on this list possess...


And remember, we go by average feats/showings; Doom rocking Uatu with a CC is nowhere near Dooms average (I'd argue that it was a PIS feat honestly)...

Once again, on average, he is not in the same class as the characters on this list...

Jack of Hearts fought Hulk and got stomped. Doom fought Hulk and beat him. Jack isn't what you make him out to be and Doom battle fts are much better.

Doomsday, even during that era isn't low Herald.

How does he get past Graviton?

Originally posted by carver9
Doomsday, even during that era isn't low Herald.

You know, I actually agree with you, but as I stated in the OP, I just went with the tierings as they appear here at KMC and got characters off of that list...

There are characters on that list that are clearly beyond Low Herald (like DoS Doomsday) and there are characters on that list that are clearly beneath Low Herald (like Dr Doom) who are only there because people like them...

Magic.

Originally posted by golem370
How does he get past Graviton?

Exactly...

Without prep or a plot device Doom gets owned against this guy...

Nor does Doom possess anywhere near the raw power that Graviton possesses...

Originally posted by carver9
Magic.
Didn't save him vs Iron Man.......

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You know, I actually agree with you, but as I stated in the OP, I just went with the tierings as they appear here at KMC and got characters off of that list...

There are characters on that list that are clearly beyond Low Herald (like DoS Doomsday) and there are characters on that list that are clearly beneath Low Herald (like Dr Doom) wh are only there because people like them...

Or he could be there based off fts.

Originally posted by carver9
Magic.

Right...

Show me some scans of him overwhelming legit Heralds with magic in a noncircumstantial fight without prep for either side...I'll wait.

His magical power sure helped him against Terrax...didnt it?

LoL...

Originally posted by carver9
Or he could be there based off fts.

No, he is there because people like him mainly as he definitely lacks the raw firepower that you see from True Low Herald level characters...

Originally posted by carver9
Jack of Hearts fought Hulk and got stomped. Doom fought Hulk and beat him. Jack isn't what you make him out to be and Doom battle fts are much better.

That ABC logic isnt applicable here; the question is how does Doom beat JoH?

Doom cant do what the Hulk can do, so thats meaningless...

Furthermore, Hulk has weaknesses that arent applicable to JoH...

You know that carver; stop being dense...


Also, Doom getting essentially one shotted by Terrax makes Doom more formidable that JoH in battle?

@carver

You neglected to mention that JoH actually won the 1st encounter that he had with Hulk; Hulk didnt recover from Jacks attack until the next issue:

Originally posted by zopzop
Nope. I'm in agreement with you. Doom vs Doomsday, sans prep for Doom, would end in only one way : with Doom's painful death.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Right...

Show me some scans of him overwhelming legit Heralds with magic in a noncircumstantial fight without prep for either side...I'll wait.

His magical power sure helped him against Terrax...didnt it?

LoL...

Lol...did you really ask this? I'll just name one person right now. Sentry. Let me know when you want another person.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...did you really ask this? I'll just name one person right now. Sentry. Let me know when you want another person.

Was the fight circumstantial?

Here is Doom admitting that he cant handle Ultron on panel:

@carver

I remember this going down in Sentry vs Doom...what do you remember?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Doom is absolutely less powerful than the characters on this list...

Doom cant do what Jack or Drax can do sans prep...period.

And you are in denial if you actually consider Doom to be as powerful as DoS Doomsday; without a plot device, Doomsday is walking right though whatever Doom is able to generate, batters down his shielding, and kills him...period.

Doom is a High Meta; he lacks the raw power the characters on this list possess...


And remember, we go by average feats/showings; Doom rocking Uatu with a CC is nowhere near Dooms average (I'd argue that it was a PIS feat honestly)...

Once again, on average, he is not in the same class as the characters on this list... Drax maybe not, but Jack of Hearts is easily eclipsed. Go ahead and outdo what I just said using his feats.

I said some. Pumping up JoH just because Doomsday is there is retarded.

He lacks the collateral damage some of these characters have, but his feats are better than most of the characters here.

If we go by average then why on Earth are you posting the Tyrant scene for Jack of Hearts? And why are you ignoring who Doom has beaten in favor of one high feat from him?

On average... Is this supposed to deter a consistently "high written" Doom? The funny thing is too that as well as ignoring Doom's consistency, that he actually gets more powerful as time progresses much like Iron Man via constant upgrades and magic.

But yes, you made a thread stating that Doom is far below everyone here. The great lom thread streak continues.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Drax maybe not, but Jack of Hearts is easily eclipsed. Go ahead and outdo what I just said using his feats.

I said some. Pumping up JoH just because Doomsday is there is retarded.

He lacks the collateral damage some of these characters have, but his feats are better than most of the characters here.

If we go by average then why on Earth are you posting the Tyrant scene for Jack of Hearts? And why are you ignoring who Doom has beaten in favor of one high feat from him?

On average... Is this supposed to deter a consistently "high written" Doom? The funny thing is too that as well as ignoring Doom's consistency, that he actually gets more powerful as time progresses much like Iron Man via constant upgrades and magic.

But yes, you made a thread stating that Doom is far below everyone here. The great lom thread streak continues.

Well, Jack arguably has a better feat than the Tyrant one...or didnt you know that?

Also, Dooms wins against the more powerful characters are often circumstantial and/or require a plot device...

Sans a plot device he got quickly owned by Terrax for example and admiited he couldnt handle Ultron...

He's just not a True Herald as you'd like him to be...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well, Jack arguably has a better feat than the Tyrant one...or didnt you know that?

Also, Dooms wins against the more powerful characters are often circumstantial and/or require a plot device...

Sans a plot device he got quickly owned by Terrax for example and admiited he couldnt handle Ultron...

He's just not a True Herald as you'd like him to be... Go right ahead with the JoH feats.

Explain the plot device in any of the fights I brought up.

And he's upgraded his armor vastly since then. So much so that he can do this to Hulk:
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/incrediblehulk2012-07f.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/incrediblehulk2012-07g.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/incrediblehulk2012-07h.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/incrediblehulk2012-07i.jpg

You hate the character though

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Right...

Show me some scans of him overwhelming legit Heralds with magic in a noncircumstantial fight without prep for either side...I'll wait.

His magical power sure helped him against Terrax...didnt it?

LoL...

Originally posted by Galan007


http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12310873_d1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12310874_d2.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12310875_d3.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12310877_d4.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12310879_d5.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12310884_d7.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12310886_d8.jpg

Some of the more noteworthy feats:
-Tracking characters across the globe by their auras alone.
-Casually busting through Strange's Crimson Bands of Cyttorak.
-Armor that adapts to attacks used against it.

Dont forget adding Dr Doom getting one shotted by Terrax to his combat feats!

@Swift

And you are wrong yet again...

I love Doom; he is one of my favorite all time characters, but I know wankage when I see it...

And I know a Herald when I see one and Doom aint one...

@zopzop

I am having trouble locating Jacks feats from the following issue (I know I have them, but simply cant locate them), but I am sure you have them...mind posting the one involving the star?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@zopzop

I am having trouble locating Jacks feats from the following issue (I know I have them, but simply cant locate them), but I am sure you have them...mind posting the one involving the star?
Testing :
Originally posted by zopzop
Carver, Magneto has more on panel appearances than JoH and has been around longer so we have to take what we can get from all of JoH's limited appearances.

Speaking of which, Jack's high DESTROYS Magneto's high :
http://s24.postimg.org/wksweyc5t/image.jpg http://s24.postimg.org/nly8o6hw1/image.jpg http://s24.postimg.org/qu2q1845t/image.jpg

http://s24.postimg.org/73f393jtd/image.jpg http://s24.postimg.org/rc2gutj4h/image.jpg http://s24.postimg.org/uwyce1no1/image.jpg

http://s24.postimg.org/ni90lo1sh/image.jpg http://s24.postimg.org/668o088b5/image.jpg http://s24.postimg.org/a7l5s5b81/image.jpg

Thanks!

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Dont forget adding Dr Doom getting one shotted by Terrax to his combat feats! That was when Terrax had a power source equal to Surfer's:
http://i58.tinypic.com/f09d0z.jpg

And he fused his armor to make him into a statue like state. Doom was still wide awake.

As well as it was something unexpected. If you know anything about Doom which you obviously don't, it's that he adapts to situations after they happen. For example Namor's lightning defeated him once. And that never happened again as Doom built a failsafe.

But words are words. Here's Doom taking the same kind of attack from an abstract, and then a blast, and then his heart being turned to stone and his blood to acid:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour566pg26.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour566pg27.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour567pg18.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour567pg19.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour567pg20-21.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour567pg22.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour567pg23.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour567pg24-25.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/doom/FantasticFour567pg26.jpg

Originally posted by ODG
"After saving the city of CHcago from a monstrous invasion, the team went on the run -- and became lost through the timestream. In the distant past the Thunderbolts accidentally rescued the super villain Dr. Doom -- who in turn tried to steal their tower and strand them in the past. War has been waged across time!"

Doom vs Thunderbolts, from Dark Avengers #176-177:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts01DarkAvengers176.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts03.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts04.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts05DarkAvengers177.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts06.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts07.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts08.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/th_DoomvsThunderbolts09.jpg

Oh yeah, he also killed an alternate Watcher in this series, and a weakened Marquis of Death.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2je1jxv.jpg

But if you can't accept his feats, then lowballing him works too. Using Terrax of all people, and a Terrax just as powerful as Silver Surfer too. Surely Terrax is a beacon of low herald... ness?

But yeah, none of Doom's feats count because an amped Terrax once beat him. Good point.

@Braylor

The above scans of Jack shows what a True Herald is capable of; Doom isnt remotely on that level...

Doom lacks the raw power Jack possesses...he lacks the raw power Drax possesses...he lacks the raw power Graviton possesses...get it?

Yes, Doom has some nice combat feats and is versatile, but True Low Heralds have more than that; they have tons of raw power...

Doom doesnt have this; his overall power level is in the ballpark of that of a High Meta...

Just accept it and move on...


Edit: and yes, I know alot about Doom and I know he lacks the power of a True Low Herald which you appear to be blind to!

Whats the issue Doom took Odin down? If someone can produce that, I rest my case.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Whats the issue Doom took Odin down? If someone can produce that, I rest my case.

You do know that that was incredibly circumstantial and required a plot device?

Under forum conditions (which are identical to those presented in this thread) Doom has absolutely no prayer against Odin...

He has no prayer against some of the characters in this very thread...

Wow... This is sad.

Everyone knows the tier thread is f*cked and needs to be edited heavily.

Ultron is a trans lvl character
DD, Graviton, classic Drax & Nimrod are comfortly above low Herald.

Now on to the actual question, Doom's shield has held against far superior attacks than JoH is capable of producing. Doom has feats vs tp that any character would love to have. Now Air Walker & Frankie are much harder fights but honestly unless you only take their high showings into account they would find a good find a Good fight with Doom.

So yes Low Herald is where Doom belongs.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Braylor

The above scans of Jack shows what a True Herald is capable of; Doom isnt remotely on that level...

Doom lacks the raw power Jack possesses...he lacks the raw power Drax possesses...he lacks the raw power Graviton possesses...get it?

Yes, Doom has some nice combat feats and is versatile, but True Low Heralds have more than that; they have tons of raw power...

Doom doesnt have this; his overall power level is in the ballpark of that of a High Meta...

Just accept it and move on...


Edit: and yes, I know alot about Doom and I know he lacks the power of a True Low Herald which you appear to be blind to!

So you're putting a guy above Doom purely because he reignited a star? Mind naming some people Jack beat?

Because how could killing a Watcher and taking attacks from an abstract compare to star igniting?

Brandon knows his comics, true warrior here. Two thumbs!!

3 thumbs IMO kind stranger.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So you're putting a guy above Doom purely because he reignited a star? Mind naming some people Jack beat?

Because how could killing a Watcher and taking attacks from an abstract compare to star igniting?

Doom taking attacks from an abstract is just as PIS ridden as Thor withstanding attacks from "merciless" Celestials better than the 2000 ft Destroyer did; mainstream characters are sometimes wanked mightily in comics as you well know...

In a PIS'less environment Doom aint killing a Watcher and he aint withstanding attacks from an abstract and you d@m well know it...

On average, Doom has failed to kill far lesser characters and far lesser characters have caused Doom harm...

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Wow... This is sad.

Everyone knows the tier thread is f*cked and needs to be edited heavily.

Ultron is a trans lvl character
DD, Graviton, classic Drax & Nimrod are comfortly above low Herald.

Now on to the actual question, Doom's shield has held against far superior attacks than JoH is capable of producing. Doom has feats vs tp that any character would love to have. Now Air Walker & Frankie are much harder fights but honestly unless you only take their high showings into account they would find a good find a Good fight with Doom.

So yes Low Herald is where Doom belongs.

I freely admit and conceed that Doom has excellent combat feats; his shields are strong and (as you pointed out) he has excellent TP related feats...

He is a powerful, versatile, dangerous, character...but he aint a Herald.

Heralds possess lots of raw power; you see that across the spectrum from the characters that truly belong in that tier...


Where are Dooms (non PIS'y) extreme feats of power that are not the result of a plot device or prep?

Real Heralds possess these; Doom doesnt...

Basically every feat of Doom is PIS. But let's look at these scans of Jack restarting a star and moving Tyrants head. That's real non pis right there. Backed up by that time he did that thing.

Also we ignore Doom's completely legitimate wins... Why? You still haven't accounted for that. Why should we ignore Doom beating more powerful people than Grodd (lol), Graviton, JoH, Drax, Nimrod, and others?

And something I just remembered, but Extremis Iron Man beat Graviton. That Iron Man was a complete equal to Doom's tech at the time, and then Doom beat him easily with magic. Let's not factor that in either.

Drax with the PG couldn't put down Professor Hulk. Doom beat a "savage" Hulk casually. Drax got choked out by Adam Warlock when he was one of the toughest spirits Soul World had ever seen. Doom knocked out Adam Warlock... Twice

Jack of Hearts in an enraged state stalemated classic Iron Man. Hulk kicked the absolute shit out of Jack. Again, Doom's performances match and surpass these.

But yes, fights don't matter. Although I'm not even sure why you included Grodd in this thing at all if you're trying to prove Doom is weak

Doom doesn't have collateral damage feats. I admit that. But when you make a thread asking Doom to beat characters who he has way better combat feats than... Well, one is just a little bit more relevant than the other. Especially when you're actually trying to say combat feats don't matter in a vs thread because JoH reignited a star...

Jesus Christ

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Based on?
Feats.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Basically every feat of Doom is PIS. But let's look at these scans of Jack restarting a star and moving Tyrants head. That's real non pis right there. Backed up by that time he did that thing.

Also we ignore Doom's completely legitimate wins... Why? You still haven't accounted for that. Why should we ignore Doom beating more powerful people than Grodd (lol), Graviton, JoH, Drax, Nimrod, and others?

And something I just remembered, but Extremis Iron Man beat Graviton. That Iron Man was a complete equal to Doom's tech at the time, and then Doom beat him easily with magic. Let's not factor that in either.

Drax with the PG couldn't put down Professor Hulk. Doom beat a "savage" Hulk casually. Drax got choked out by Adam Warlock when he was one of the toughest spirits Soul World had ever seen. Doom knocked out Adam Warlock... Twice

Jack of Hearts in an enraged state stalemated classic Iron Man. Hulk kicked the absolute shit out of Jack. Again, Doom's performances match and surpass these.

But yes, fights don't matter. Although I'm not even sure why you included Grodd in this thing at all if you're trying to prove Doom is weak

Doom doesn't have collateral damage feats. I admit that. But when you make a thread asking Doom to beat characters who he has way better combat feats than... Well, one is just a little bit more relevant than the other. Especially when you're actually trying to say combat feats don't matter in a vs thread because JoH reignited a star...

Jesus Christ

Despite all the deflection you are throwing up, you also know full well that in a PIS'less/prep'less environment Doom loses to the majority of the list in the OP...

Grodd is there btw because I wanted there to be someone present that he could actually potentially get wins against sans PIS/prep...


Jack has been written up since his fight against Hulk btw (and he is 1 and 1 against Hulk as I pointed out earlier in this thread) and his portrayals/feats support it...

Jack can reinite a star under his own power sans prep...can Doom?

When Tyrants robots went gathering beings to power Tyrants machines, they selected beings that possessed a certain level of power or greater; Surfer, Morg, Terrax, Jack, Bill, Gladiator, and Gandymede were selected...

Jack was the one that damaged Tyrants machinery allowing the others to get free and mount an attack against Tyrant; you really think Doom has the raw power to do what Jack did?

In a PIS'less environment, you really think Doom is giving pause to Tyrant?

Jack kept performing these levels of feats...its called an average...and its greater than Dooms average.


Doom isnt on the same level as the characters mentioned in this thread (except maybe Grodd, and in a PIS'less environment he can definitely get wins against Doom)...

Take off the rose tinted glasses and see him for what he truly is...

He's a High Meta that, between PIS and prep, can give greater characters trouble...

Yes, not everything he does is PIS or involves prep, but without those, his combat effectiveness drops significantly...

Originally posted by Epicurus
Feats.

Great, I'll wait for reasons why he can beat DoS Doomsday sans PIS (which isnt present in a forum environment) and prep...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Great, I'll wait for reasons why he can beat DoS Doomsday sans PIS (which isnt present in a forum environment) and prep...

BFR.
Ovoid mind swap.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
BFR.
Ovoid mind swap.

Ok...your opinion is automatically invalid as you posted without actually reading the OP.

Also, show me a feat of Dooms mind trick working on someone as powerful as DoS Doomsday...I'll wait.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Ok...your opinion is automatically invalid as you posted without actually reading the OP.

Also, show me a feat of Dooms mind trick working on someone as powerful as DoS Doomsday...I'll wait.

The reason why I posted BFR, and a plot device method, was because you are putting Doom up against a plot device character, and asking him to beat him.

Doomsday was the death of Superman. He was created for the express purposes of beating Superman to death. There was no way any other character in DC would've intervened, or would've made a difference to Superman beaing beaten to death.

Had Marvel decided to create a storyline called 'Death of Hulk', and created a character like Doomsday, he would've also lost. Ditto Juggernaut, Thanos, Darkseid, anyone. Because he is a walking plot device - to enable Character X (in this case, Superman) to lose and die in a heroic drawn out battle.

Considering the strength of Doom's will which would be powering the mind switch, and how Brainiac was able to control Doomsday, it's on you to prove it, really. Am sure we all know Doom's willpower feats.

Doomsday's mind is powerful, but we know it can be controlled (the Ovoid switch isn't mind control, anyway, but it shows Doomsday's will is not supreme).

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Great, I'll wait for reasons why he can beat DoS Doomsday sans PIS (which isnt present in a forum environment) and prep... I dunno... Those scans of his humiliating Hulk were pretty convincing. I think he might be able to take him.

Does the strength of your mind protect you against the Ovoid mind switch? Proof? I'll wait.

With regards to JoH, I don't think his energy output is above the Infinity Gauntlet, or Franklin Richards:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Inventions/DoomArmor44-PersonalAdaptersHeroesR.jpg

I just found this, thought it was nifty. Abhi would like it. Owning Thor, the god of Lightning, with an electro paralyser...

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Inventions/DoomArmor03-ElectroParalyzerThor183.jpg

Originally posted by NemeBro
I dunno... Those scans of his humiliating Hulk were pretty convincing. I think he might be able to take him.
That version of Hulk wasn't much impressive. Banner oneshotted him with a part of his own strength directed at him and he was having troubles with sharks.

http://i.imgur.com/65zJrkv.jpg

Doom clears

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Doom clears.....

Originally posted by abhilegend
That version of Hulk wasn't much impressive. Banner oneshotted him with a part of his own strength directed at him and he was having troubles with sharks.

http://i.imgur.com/65zJrkv.jpg

I agree with this. He started off beastly and went downhill from there. I also think Hulk surgery had a lot to do with Doom winning against him because during their second fight, Hulk one punched him. Then the 3 time they met, Doom ran (under the same writer). It doesn't matter. That was the worst Hulk writing ever.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this. He started off beastly and went downhill from there. I also think Hulk surgery had a lot to do with Doom winning against him because during their second fight, Hulk one punched him. Then the 3 time they met, Doom ran (under the same writer). It doesn't matter. That was the worst Hulk writing ever.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this. He started off beastly and went downhill from there. I also think Hulk surgery had a lot to do with Doom winning against him because during their second fight, Hulk one punched him. Then the 3 time they met, Doom ran (under the same writer). It doesn't matter. That was the worst Hulk writing ever. You don't have a Goddamned clue what you're talking about, and you know it.

And the surgery happened before the entire series started chronologically. Which means when you were cheerleading him beating those gamma pigs and causing massive collateral damage was after the surgery. Which means when you said that Hulk tanking a gamma bomb that was massive compared to the world happened after the surgery.

And their first fight was when Hulk ONE PUNCHED HIM and after he ONE PUNCHED HIM, he totally himself didn't run away.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsDoom12a.jpg

Look at that sick one punch bro...

There was no third time when Doom ran away either.

And no it wasn't. It was actually a good series that you never read. In fact, that same Hulk ripped adamantium fishhooks (though unclear if the lines and fishhooks were adamantium or just the fishhooks), and jammed Wolverine's claws through his skull. He beat Thing and Wolverine at the same time while constantly being jammed with a serum that was sapping his strength. Of course, none of this speaks of the writing quality, but that's not what you were talking about. Feats for you.
But the whole Banner vs Hulk aspect was pretty well written as well.

Though I like how you're all prepared to throw Hulk under the bus merely because Doom beat him (and Banner... that's it). He must have been the weakest Hulk ever because Doom beat him in fact!

But with you just cosigning away with abhi of all people, let's examine something. Here is Hulk having trouble with gamma sharks.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/IncredibleHulk2016.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/IncredibleHulk2017.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/IncredibleHulk2018.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/IncredibleHulk2019.jpg

And here is the next time Banner punched him when Hulk wasn't taken by surprise:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/14-03-2012-20.jpg

How did this Hulk even tie his shoes without knocking himself out? Weakest Hulk ever!

@Bran...

Why didn't you quote ABHI post? Besides that, the story was terrible. I'm not talking about fts. Everything about it was bad. The fts are there, the story is terrible.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Despite all the deflection you are throwing up, you also know full well that in a PIS'less/prep'less environment Doom loses to the majority of the list in the OP...

Grodd is there btw because I wanted there to be someone present that he could actually potentially get wins against sans PIS/prep...


Jack has been written up since his fight against Hulk btw (and he is 1 and 1 against Hulk as I pointed out earlier in this thread) and his portrayals/feats support it...

Jack can reinite a star under his own power sans prep...can Doom?

When Tyrants robots went gathering beings to power Tyrants machines, they selected beings that possessed a certain level of power or greater; Surfer, Morg, Terrax, Jack, Bill, Gladiator, and Gandymede were selected...

Jack was the one that damaged Tyrants machinery allowing the others to get free and mount an attack against Tyrant; you really think Doom has the raw power to do what Jack did?

In a PIS'less environment, you really think Doom is giving pause to Tyrant?

Jack kept performing these levels of feats...its called an average...and its greater than Dooms average.


Doom isnt on the same level as the characters mentioned in this thread (except maybe Grodd, and in a PIS'less environment he can definitely get wins against Doom)...

Take off the rose tinted glasses and see him for what he truly is...

He's a High Meta that, between PIS and prep, can give greater characters trouble...

Yes, not everything he does is PIS or involves prep, but without those, his combat effectiveness drops significantly... Deflection? Like ignoring every single feat of Doom because you don't like his high ones? How do you feel about Doom beating Adam Warlock? I guess we'll never know because you refuse to acknowledge its existence.
And no Doom doesn't. That's stupid as hell.

So you used someone Doom could beat IYO as evidence that Doom isn't on that tier? How does that work?

Scan me the scans of Jack beating Hulk.

And Doom can kill a Watcher under his own power, can Jack? Though your question applies to everyone in this thread who isn't Jack or Nova. I know for a fact Doomsday can't reignite a sun, guess we'd better knock him down a tier since fights don't matter.

And Jack of Hearts is easily way weaker than all of them. I don't know how him being captured is supposed to be a feat when the guy is vastly inferior to all of them. But congrats on Jack of Hearts getting knocked out and captured being a feat. How could Doom compare?
In fact, what does Tyrant think of Jack of Hearts who his robots nearly beat to death?
http://i60.tinypic.com/6f58jl.jpg

Color me impressed!

Do I really think Doom could break machinery - That's the question you just asked me. Um... yeah.

In a pisless environment Jack of Hearts isn't giving pause to Tyrant. So you can stop pretending only two of Jack of Heart's feats count while ignoring the rest, and acting like Doom's high feats are all pis.
But since you're only pretending Jack of Hearts has two high feats that are totally not pis, let's return the favor.
Doom has killed Molecule Man, rocked PR Beyonder, killed a Watcher, rocked Uatu with the Cosmic Cube, killed a weakened Marquis of Death, etc. So yes, if we're going purely by high feats, then Doom can easily match anything JoH has ever done.
Or are we only allowed to use Doom's average feats, and pretend Jack of Hearts' only two feats are reigniting a sun, and giving Tyrant pause? Actually, you won't even acknowledge the existence of Doom's average feats so I don't even know what the hell you want to listen to. If you cover your eyes ears and ass tight enough, then you can state whatever you want.

Two feats out of what a hundred comics or so is not an average.

Doom is easily on most of these beings levels. You stating that while ignoring every feat he has doesn't mean anything. And you saying that is only you admitting you tried to create a bait and spite thread... shocker for you I know.

The irony abounds there. But good job telling someone to take of rose colored glasses when you are blatantly ignoring anything Doom has done. Do you expect me to just bring up him beating Spider-Man and act like that is his average or something?

He can beat higher characters though, consistently. So naturally that would make him a street level character...



Good job ignoring Doom beating characters above the people in this thread. Good job ignoring Doom beating characters who have beaten characters in this thread.

Also, if fighting feats don't matter at all, then what do you make of Doomsday? Why is he being elevated when he lacks none of the "OMG so big" feats that you're using for others? Doomsday is in the exact same boat as Doom (albeit it on a higher level). He beats people in fights. That's it. He doesn't punch continents or reignite suns, he just beats people. Yet he gets a special pass and Doom doesn't? Hypocrisy?

Actually, I don't even know what the hell you're basing anything off of since you're bouncing all over the place. You say raw power matters, yet you're only bringing up JoH's two high feats (and one is kind of a fighting feat), yet Doom's high feats are all pis, and you're blatantly ignoring his fighting feats while still pretending he needs prep and pis to be effective.

Just blind hate at this point. You failed to create a bait thread and now you're justifying your stance with blinders.

Originally posted by carver9
@Bran...

Why didn't you quote ABHI post? Besides that, the story was terrible. I'm not talking about fts. Everything about it was bad. The fts are there, the story is terrible. Why would I quote abhi when I'm replying to you and I read his post through yours? And you're blindly agreeing with him.

Or did I not disagree with anything you said in my post? Thought I did, but if you say I didn't...

What part about the story didn't you like carver? Because from your post it seems you certainly read it in detail. Not that detail is needed considering it was pretty straight forward, but you went the extra mile didn't you?

1) Jack of Hearts... / Doom wins
2) Graviton... / Doom wins
3) Gorilla Grodd... / Doom wins
4) Nimrod... / Doom wins
5) Drax the Destroyer... / Doom wtf stomps. He has a hard time with classic Drax.
6) Death of Superman Doomsday... / Doom loses the majority, I still give him 4/10 bfr wins.
7) Ultron... / Split.
8) Air Walker... / Doom wins, talk about an herald jobber.
9) Frankie Raye... / Doom wins.
10) Kang / Doom loses after a good fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Jack of Hearts fought Hulk and got stomped. Doom fought Hulk and beat him. Jack isn't what you make him out to be and Doom battle fts are much better. beating hulk isn't impressive. I'm pretty sure that everyone in marvel has kicked hulk's ass before.

Originally posted by Bentley
1) Jack of Hearts... / Doom wins
2) Graviton... / Doom wins
3) Gorilla Grodd... / Doom wins
4) Nimrod... / Doom wins
5) Drax the Destroyer... / Doom wtf stomps. He has a hard time with classic Drax.
6) Death of Superman Doomsday... / Doom loses the majority, I still give him 4/10 bfr wins.
7) Ultron... / Split.
8) Air Walker... / Doom wins, talk about an herald jobber.
9) Frankie Raye... / Doom wins.
10) Kang / Doom loses after a good fight.

Fair, and balanced.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The reason why I posted BFR, and a plot device method, was because you are putting Doom up against a plot device character, and asking him to beat him.

Doomsday was the death of Superman. He was created for the express purposes of beating Superman to death. There was no way any other character in DC would've intervened, or would've made a difference to Superman beaing beaten to death.

Had Marvel decided to create a storyline called 'Death of Hulk', and created a character like Doomsday, he would've also lost. Ditto Juggernaut, Thanos, Darkseid, anyone. Because he is a walking plot device - to enable Character X (in this case, Superman) to lose and die in a heroic drawn out battle.

Considering the strength of Doom's will which would be powering the mind switch, and how Brainiac was able to control Doomsday, it's on you to prove it, really. Am sure we all know Doom's willpower feats.

Doomsday's mind is powerful, but we know it can be controlled (the Ovoid switch isn't mind control, anyway, but it shows Doomsday's will is not supreme).

Regardless of your justification, BFR is not a viable tactic in this thread...

As for the mind trick, how many times in the last 20 yeats has he used that tactic?

Lol...characters still fight in character, and the mind switch is something he just doesnt do..

Originally posted by God Cloth Seiya
beating hulk isn't impressive. I'm pretty sure that everyone in marvel has kicked hulk's ass before.

You know nothing of Hulk so your opinion doesn't matter.

@bieb...

I will respond to your post soon.

Originally posted by carver9
You know nothing of Hulk so your opinion doesn't . I actually know about him. And everyone has pretty much beat his ass.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Deflection? Like ignoring every single feat of Doom because you don't like his high ones? How do you feel about Doom beating Adam Warlock? I guess we'll never know because you refuse to acknowledge its existence.
And no Doom doesn't. That's stupid as hell.

So you used someone Doom could beat IYO as evidence that Doom isn't on that tier? How does that work?

Scan me the scans of Jack beating Hulk.

And Doom can kill a Watcher under his own power, can Jack? Though your question applies to everyone in this thread who isn't Jack or Nova. I know for a fact Doomsday can't reignite a sun, guess we'd better knock him down a tier since fights don't matter.

And Jack of Hearts is easily way weaker than all of them. I don't know how him being captured is supposed to be a feat when the guy is vastly inferior to all of them. But congrats on Jack of Hearts getting knocked out and captured being a feat. How could Doom compare?
In fact, what does Tyrant think of Jack of Hearts who his robots nearly beat to death?
http://i60.tinypic.com/6f58jl.jpg

Color me impressed!

Do I really think Doom could break machinery - That's the question you just asked me. Um... yeah.

In a pisless environment Jack of Hearts isn't giving pause to Tyrant. So you can stop pretending only two of Jack of Heart's feats count while ignoring the rest, and acting like Doom's high feats are all pis.
But since you're only pretending Jack of Hearts has two high feats that are totally not pis, let's return the favor.
Doom has killed Molecule Man, rocked PR Beyonder, killed a Watcher, rocked Uatu with the Cosmic Cube, killed a weakened Marquis of Death, etc. So yes, if we're going purely by high feats, then Doom can easily match anything JoH has ever done.
Or are we only allowed to use Doom's average feats, and pretend Jack of Hearts' only two feats are reigniting a sun, and giving Tyrant pause? Actually, you won't even acknowledge the existence of Doom's average feats so I don't even know what the hell you want to listen to. If you cover your eyes ears and ass tight enough, then you can state whatever you want.

Two feats out of what a hundred comics or so is not an average.

Doom is easily on most of these beings levels. You stating that while ignoring every feat he has doesn't mean anything. And you saying that is only you admitting you tried to create a bait and spite thread... shocker for you I know.

The irony abounds there. But good job telling someone to take of rose colored glasses when you are blatantly ignoring anything Doom has done. Do you expect me to just bring up him beating Spider-Man and act like that is his average or something?

He can beat higher characters though, consistently. So naturally that would make him a street level character...



Good job ignoring Doom beating characters above the people in this thread. Good job ignoring Doom beating characters who have beaten characters in this thread.

Also, if fighting feats don't matter at all, then what do you make of Doomsday? Why is he being elevated when he lacks none of the "OMG so big" feats that you're using for others? Doomsday is in the exact same boat as Doom (albeit it on a higher level). He beats people in fights. That's it. He doesn't punch continents or reignite suns, he just beats people. Yet he gets a special pass and Doom doesn't? Hypocrisy?

Actually, I don't even know what the hell you're basing anything off of since you're bouncing all over the place. You say raw power matters, yet you're only bringing up JoH's two high feats (and one is kind of a fighting feat), yet Doom's high feats are all pis, and you're blatantly ignoring his fighting feats while still pretending he needs prep and pis to be effective.

Just blind hate at this point. You failed to create a bait thread and now you're justifying your stance with blinders.

You mad bro?

Also Johns retconned that nanites controlled Doomsday in DD Wars, not telepathy.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Johns retconned that nanites controlled Doomsday in DD Wars, not telepathy.

Originally posted by God Cloth Seiya
I actually know about him. And everyone has pretty much beat his ass.

Name 3 people in the past 10 yrs that beat Hulk since he sucks so bad. This will probably be your last post on the subject. I'll be waiting.

Originally posted by carver9
Name 3 people in the past 10 yrs that beat Hulk since he sucks so bad. This will probably be your last post on the subject. I'll be waiting. Never said he sucks. The problem with Hulk is to big of a dumbsh*t to realize that he has superpowers which is why anyone can kick hulks ass. Which is why beating him isn't impressive.

You mad bro?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You mad bro? the maddest I've ever been. But you having no ability to retort alleviates that fury

Double post.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Regardless of your justification, BFR is not a viable tactic in this thread...

As for the mind trick, how many times in the last 20 yeats has he used that tactic?

Lol...characters still fight in character, and the mind switch is something he just doesnt do..

How many times has Jack of Hearts shown his 'star igniting powers' from the get go? But apparently, that's fine and dandy to bring up.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Johns retconned that nanites controlled Doomsday in DD Wars, not telepathy.

Ovoid mind switch isn't telepathy anyway.

Originally posted by God Cloth Seiya
Never said he sucks. The problem with Hulk is to big of a dumbsh*t to realize that he has superpowers which is why anyone can kick hulks ass. Which is why beating him isn't impressive.

You mad bro?

What 3 people has defeated him in the past 10 yrs?

Doom clears. His tech is on crazy levels, his magic has nearly oneshotted Hulk and Sentry, his blasts have OHKO'd Adam Warlock, hurt Blastaar, and nearly killed Namor. He's beaten Surfer in nearly every fight they've had and he's beaten Strange before with what looked like pure magic. Doom is crazy strong actually.

Originally posted by carver9
What 3 people has defeated him in the past 10 yrs? Thor, Gardener, Starbrand.

Sorry

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Thor, Gardener, Starbrand.

Sorry

Doom, random undersea monster, Proxima Midnight

That random undersea monster was fighting with a Celestial for days... it's a miracle Hulk didn't get disintegrated by the backhand.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Thor, Gardener, Starbrand.

Sorry It's not so much as your ability to answer it as it is the person who's talking as if he knows how impressive beating Hulk or how easy it is.

If I start deflecting from my ability to answer something, then someone else answering it doesn't prove my original point in full, while it may touch on aspects. Feigning knowledge in other words.

Just see it a lot on the forum, and had to say something this time.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Thor, Gardener, Starbrand.

Sorry

Lol...

When did Thor ko Hulk in the past 10 yrs? Can you show the Gardener and Starbrand scans? I think you are joking. Aaaahhhh, you're talking about Thor using a super attack and Hulk catching him ending with the backlash of power possibly dropping Hulk? He said Hulk sucks, so I'm looking for battle fts.

Thor & Starbrand each knocked him into orbit (Siege/ avengers 8ish I believe)

Gardener beat all the avengers until CU saved them. ( now Avengers #1)

Holy shit do you have things mixed up Pym

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Thor & Starbrand each knocked him into orbit (Siege/ avengers 8ish I believe)

Gardener beat all the avengers until CU saved them. ( now Avengers #1)

Do you consider that a win? I just look down on bfr, but, I agree with you. What about the Gardener fight? Do you have scans?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Holy shit do you have things mixed up Pym

Oh god.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Holy shit do you have things mixed up Pym ?Originally posted by carver9
Do you consider that a win? I just look down on bfr, but, I agree with you. What about the Gardener fight? Do you have scans? my Laptop is out of commission for a couple months. Sorry.
Ex Nihilo and Abyss were there if you count them I guess that could disqualify Gardener.

Thor beating Hulk was in Fear Itself (though there's another time that I could say)

BFR, I guess, but yeah. BFR.

Thor and Hulk knocked each other out in Avengers 1. I don't know what you're talking about with 'Gardener'

The Robot with Abyss & Ex Nihilo
The fight on mars.

Bfr is a win in my book, but if Carver is looking more towards a physical beat down I'd have to think a bit.

yeah fear itself, not siege

For the record, I don't agree with saint God I'm just joking with Carver.

There isn't enough fear or respect for the apprentice to the MOD. Bow before Zod!! Er... I mean Doom!

edit

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Great, I'll wait for reasons why he can beat DoS Doomsday sans PIS (which isnt present in a forum environment) and prep...
So your criterion for a character to be low herald is if they are able to beat trans tier characters? What sort of biased and bullshit idea is that?

Anyways, Doom wins via bfr. Point proven.

As to your other claims regarding Doom killing a Watcher being PIS, Doom had did so after mastering every form of dark arts for a million years. Doom was also under tutelage from the Marquis of Death, the same guy who goes around puppet-mastering Abstracts.

Heck, even in the most recent F4/FF arc, Doom was referred as being omnipotent by none other than the Living f*cking Tribunal himself:
http://imgur.com/0cdIyBE
http://imgur.com/jcYqW2u
But go ahead and dismiss it as PIS. That's what you do after all, don't ya?

So there. Doom belongs to the herald category no matter how much you want to whine and cry about it, TLoM.

Originally posted by carver9
What 3 people has defeated him in the past 10 yrs?
King Kong, Ancient Alien and Thanos. Among others.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You mad bro?

Apparently you are cause you lost your hokey thread.

Like I said in the beginning Doom is a pure badass.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Apparently you are cause you lost your hokey thread.

Like I said in the beginning Doom is a pure badass.

Whatever rookie...

You contributed nothing here; do you even read comics?

I simply got bored arguing with a Doom-blind-fanboy...and nothing more.

Originally posted by Epicurus
King Kong, Ancient Alien and Thanos. Among others.
Also Werewolf by Night choked him out like whoa.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsWerewolfByNight04.jpg

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Despite all the deflection you are throwing up, you also know full well that in a PIS'less/prep'less environment Doom loses to the majority of the list in the OP...

Grodd is there btw because I wanted there to be someone present that he could actually potentially get wins against sans PIS/prep...


Jack has been written up since his fight against Hulk btw (and he is 1 and 1 against Hulk as I pointed out earlier in this thread) and his portrayals/feats support it...

Jack can reinite a star under his own power sans prep...can Doom?

When Tyrants robots went gathering beings to power Tyrants machines, they selected beings that possessed a certain level of power or greater; Surfer, Morg, Terrax, Jack, Bill, Gladiator, and Gandymede were selected...

Jack was the one that damaged Tyrants machinery allowing the others to get free and mount an attack against Tyrant; you really think Doom has the raw power to do what Jack did?

In a PIS'less environment, you really think Doom is giving pause to Tyrant?

Jack kept performing these levels of feats...its called an average...and its greater than Dooms average.


Doom isnt on the same level as the characters mentioned in this thread (except maybe Grodd, and in a PIS'less environment he can definitely get wins against Doom)...

Take off the rose tinted glasses and see him for what he truly is...

He's a High Meta that, between PIS and prep, can give greater characters trouble...

Yes, not everything he does is PIS or involves prep, but without those, his combat effectiveness drops significantly...
LoM, I get what you were trying to do with this thread : A character, in this case Doom, under his own power (no prep and cr@p) vs herald level characters. You meant to show the raw power difference between true heralds vs popular characters considered to be heralds (based on their win record).

It didn't work because :
a) fanboys and trolls came out in force
b) the non trolls/fanboys brought up a good point, Doom has beaten herald level characters before and multiple times

What you should have done is create a thread with different scenarios that required herald level power :
a) mountain range falling on heroes
b) Baxter Building toppling over
c) emergency on a different planet
d) rescuing a star
e) surviving stellar level temperatures and pressure
f) withstanding a black hole
g) etc....

That way, they are forced to argue for the character based on his displayed power rather than his ability to win a fight.

For example : Spiderman has beaten Firelord, Savage Hulk, almost beat Masterson Thor into a coma, yet no one dares consider him a herald level being despite the fact that he's beaten heralds.

Now use my example : Molecule Man has dropped a mountain on our heroes in Secret Wars I, there's no time to escape, what does Spiderman do? He can't do sh|t except die. Unlike the Hulk, who Spiderman beat by the way, who could at least brace/lift that billions of tons of weight to give the heroes a chance to devise a plan to escape.





@ abhilegend
ROFLMAO.

Originally posted by Epicurus
So your criterion for a character to be low herald is if they are able to beat trans tier characters? What sort of biased and bullshit idea is that?

Anyways, Doom wins via bfr. Point proven.

As to your other claims regarding Doom killing a Watcher being PIS, Doom had did so after mastering every form of dark arts for a million years. Doom was also under tutelage from the Marquis of Death, the same guy who goes around puppet-mastering Abstracts.

Heck, even in the most recent F4/FF arc, Doom was referred as being omnipotent by none other than the Living f*cking Tribunal himself:
http://imgur.com/0cdIyBE
http://imgur.com/jcYqW2u
But go ahead and dismiss it as PIS. That's what you do after all, don't ya?

So there. Doom belongs to the herald category no matter how much you want to whine and cry about it, TLoM.

What wait, isn't the LT lying dead on the moon?

Originally posted by zopzop
LoM, I get what you were trying to do with this thread : A character, in this case Doom, under his own power (no prep and cr@p) vs herald level characters. You meant to show the raw power difference between true heralds vs popular characters considered to be heralds (based on their win record).

It didn't work because :
a) fanboys and trolls came out in force
b) the non trolls/fanboys brought up a good point, Doom has beaten herald level characters before and multiple times

What you should have done is create a thread with different scenarios that required herald level power :
a) mountain range falling on heroes
b) Baxter Building toppling over
c) emergency on a different planet
d) rescuing a star
e) surviving stellar level temperatures and pressure
f) withstanding a black hole
g) etc....

That way, they are forced to argue for the character based on his displayed power rather than his ability to win a fight.

For example : Spiderman has beaten Firelord, Savage Hulk, almost beat Masterson Thor into a coma, yet no one dares consider him a herald level being despite the fact that he's beaten heralds.

Now use my example : Molecule Man has dropped a mountain on our heroes in Secret Wars I, there's no time to escape, what does Spiderman do? He can't do sh|t except die. Unlike the Hulk, who Spiderman beat by the way, who could at least brace/lift that billions of tons of weight to give the heroes a chance to devise a plan to escape.





@ abhilegend
ROFLMAO.

Excellent points zopzop...excellent points.

And that was exactly what I planned to demostrate in this thread: that Doom doesnt have Herald level power...

Yeah, Doom would fail in all those senario's where True Heralds could succeed...

You all tend to throw off anything Doom has done and is marking it as PIS. If you cant accept what the character has done, then why make the thread? It seem like your mind is already made up. Doom have fts that shows he can beat anyone on that list, and it's consistent. It's not up to you to choose what's PIS or not since again, his fts is consistent enough to be considered the norm.

Originally posted by zopzop
LoM, I get what you were trying to do with this thread : A character, in this case Doom, under his own power (no prep and cr@p) vs herald level characters. You meant to show the raw power difference between true heralds vs popular characters considered to be heralds (based on their win record).

It didn't work because :
a) fanboys and trolls came out in force
b) the non trolls/fanboys brought up a good point, Doom has beaten herald level characters before and multiple times

What you should have done is create a thread with different scenarios that required herald level power :
a) mountain range falling on heroes
b) Baxter Building toppling over
c) emergency on a different planet
d) rescuing a star
e) surviving stellar level temperatures and pressure
f) withstanding a black hole
g) etc....

That way, they are forced to argue for the character based on his displayed power rather than his ability to win a fight.

For example : Spiderman has beaten Firelord, Savage Hulk, almost beat Masterson Thor into a coma, yet no one dares consider him a herald level being despite the fact that he's beaten heralds.

Now use my example : Molecule Man has dropped a mountain on our heroes in Secret Wars I, there's no time to escape, what does Spiderman do? He can't do sh|t except die. Unlike the Hulk, who Spiderman beat by the way, who could at least brace/lift that billions of tons of weight to give the heroes a chance to devise a plan to escape.





@ abhilegend
ROFLMAO.

Those fts you've named, Doomsday, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, along with a group of other low to High Heralds, they've never performed anything close to that. Do you consider them as Heralds.?

Originally posted by carver9
You all tend to throw off anything Doom has done and is marking it as PIS. If you cant accept what the character has done, then why make the thread? It seem like your mind is already made up. Doom have fts that shows he can beat anyone on that list, and it's consistent. It's not up to you to choose what's PIS or not since again, his fts is consistent enough to be considered the norm.

Dude...just stop; no one is discounting all his feats.

Braylor wants to count him killing a Watcher and taking hits from an abstract as legit when anyone with a brain in their skull recognizes those "feats" as pure PIS...

Common Sense dude...

Originally posted by carver9
Those fts you've named, Doomsday, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, along with a group of other low to High Heralds, they've never performed anything close to that. Do you consider them as Heralds.?

Of course those guys are Heralds...

Glads once stopped the Baxter Building from falling if memory serves me correctly and these characters all possess strength in that same realm, so yeah, they belong...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Dude...just stop; no one is discounting all his feats.

Braylor wants to count him killing a Watcher and taking hits from an abstract as legit when anyone with a brain in their skull recognizes those "feats" as pure PIS...

Common Sense dude... Get some reading comprehension. I only said they were legit when you kept purely using Jack of Hearts' highest feats to say Doom wasn't close.

And you blindly hate Doom, so I could see how logic is seen as fanboyish.

A related question, what about Batman?

He's a normal human. No meta enhancements. And yet, he takes on and beats people outside of his weight class. And does things way beyond what humans can do. PIS? That negates 50/75% of his feats.

But he does them so regularly.

Appreciate its not the same as Doom punching Watchers etc, but same principle. When it happens quite often, and isn't a one time outlier, and has corroborating, supporting evidence, why not?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Get some reading comprehension. I only said they were legit when you kept purely using Jack of Hearts' highest feats to say Doom wasn't close.

And you blindly hate Doom, so I could see how logic is seen as fanboyish.

Yep, I hate Doom...

Nevermind that I own the entire Doom 2099 series and have followed the character faithfully since the late 80's...

Contiune to believe what your delusional brain keeps telling you..

Yes, you love Doom. That's why you made a bait thread for him, said he couldn't beat anyone here, and then just generally shit on him.

That delusion on my part.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A related question, what about Batman?

He's a normal human. No meta enhancements. And yet, he takes on and beats people outside of his weight class. And does things way beyond what humans can do. PIS? That negates 50/75% of his feats.

But he does them so regularly.

Appreciate its not the same as Doom punching Watchers etc, but same principle. When it happens quite often, and isn't a one time outlier, and has corroborating, supporting evidence, why not? People get stuck on their labels of a character, and assume that they should only be operating within those perimeters. Regardless of what happens in the comics, Labels > feats.

You still see the same kind of shit with Captain America too. "Peak human" means he gets disintegrated by any hit above 2 tons, and automatically 90 percent of his feats don't count.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Of course those guys are Heralds...

Glads once stopped the Baxter Building from falling if memory serves me correctly and these characters all possess strength in that same realm, so yeah, they belong...

So Zop Zop comment was pointless?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes, you love Doom. That's why you made a bait thread for him, said he couldn't beat anyone here, and then just generally shit on him.

That delusion on my part.

People get stuck on their labels of a character, and assume that they should only be operating within those perimeters. Regardless of what happens in the comics, Labels > feats.

You still see the same kind of shit with Captain America too. "Peak human" means he gets disintegrated by any hit above 2 tons, and automatically 90 percent of his feats don't count.

Bait thread in your mind; legit topic in mines...

I firmly believe he lacks the power of a Herald depite his combat feats, as beating Heralds doesnt automatically make you a Herald (see Spiderman and Batman for clear examples of this)...

I went about it the wrong way; I should have done it in the fashion that zopzop suggested and maybe my point would have been clearer...

Of course your fanboy blinders are on so tight that any thread suggesting Doom couldnt do something would be interpreted by you as a spite/bait/anti-Doom thread...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Dude...just stop; no one is discounting all his feats.

Braylor wants to count him killing a Watcher and taking hits from an abstract as legit when anyone with a brain in their skull recognizes those "feats" as pure PIS...

Common Sense dude...

So JOH high fts count but Doom doesn't?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Bait thread in your mind; legit topic in mines...

I firmly believe he lacks the power of a Herald depite his combat feats, as beating Heralds doesnt automatically make you a Herald (see Spiderman and Batman for clear examples of this)...

I went about it the wrong way; I should have one it in the fashion that zopzop suggested and maybe my point would have been clearer...

Of course your fanboy blinders are on so tight that any thread suggesting Doom couldnt do something would be interpreted by you as a spite/bait/anti-Doom thread... You just stated the textbook definition of "bait thread".

Originally posted by carver9
So Zop Zop comment was pointless?

If thats the conclusion you've reached then your reading comprehension approaches zero...

What I posted fully agrees with what he posted...

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You just stated the textbook definition of "bait thread".

Only in the mind of a fanboy is that the definition of "bait thread."

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
If thats the conclusion you've reached then your reading comprehension approaches zero...

What I posted fully agrees with what he posted...

But you are picking and choosing. Black Adam is where he is at due to who he has fought and what he has done during those fights. He isn't in that tier because he ignited a star, busted a planet, traveled through space at high speed, or survived in a black hole. At least be consistent with your argument. Black Adam took on the entirety of the JSA that had a group of low to High Heralds, JOH ignited a Star. Who would win the majority between Black Adam and JOH?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Only in the mind of a fanboy is that the definition of "bait thread." My mind has nothing to do with this.

You made a thread with the intention of a character not being able to beat anyone in the thread, and you won't accept any of his feats as reasons for being a low herald.

Your intention was to call out Doom "fanboys", and try and rub it in their face that no matter how hard they tried, that Doom wasn't a low herald (even though the forum voted for him to be) and couldn't beat anyone in this thread. As well as trying to make him go down a tier for no reason. And calling me a Doom fanboy for just using the exact same logic you're using for JoH, but with actual feats too... What is this called if it isn't bait?

But if you don't believe it's a bait thread, then you wouldn't mind Pr popping in here?

Originally posted by carver9
So JOH high fts count but Doom doesn't?

JoH is a True Herald...

Reigniting/Stabilizing a Star, withstanding close proximity levels of solar radiation/heat/pressures are something that is typically seen in Heralds...

In the example with Tyrant, lets be clear, he didnt really do any real damage to Tyrant and Tyrant never was in no real danger...but JoH gave him a slight pause...that is something reasonable a Herald vs someone who is atleast a High Skyfather would be capable of (Surfer got a good hit on Odin that caused him to slightly shift position, but Odin wasnt hurt by it; that is a reasonable result)...

Contrast this to Doom; him killing a Watcher and taking hits from an Abstract is so far out of bounds that its totally rediculous...


Do you get it now? Or must I simplify things further for you?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
JoH is a True Herald...

Reigniting/Stabilizing a Star, withstanding close proximity levels are solar radiation/heat/pressures are something that is typically seen in Heralds...

In the example with Tyrant, lets be clear, he didnt really do any real damage to Tyrant and Tyrant never was in no real danger...but JoH gave him a slight pause...that is something reasonable a Herald vs someone who is atleast a High Skyfather would be capable of (Surfer got a good hit on Odin that caused him to slightly shift position, but Odin wasnt hurt by it; that is a reasonable result)...

Contrast this to Doom, him killing a Watcher and taking hits from an Abstract is so far out of bounds that its totally rediculous...


Do you get it now? Or must I simplify things further for you?

And even after reigniting a star, he got his face ripped in by people that Doom beat.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
My mind has nothing to do with this.

You made a thread with the intention of a character not being able to beat anyone in the thread

Stop right there; we adressed this several pages back, but apparently you lack long term memory...

What was my reason for including Grodd here? LoL...


If you are going to try to bend and twist everything I say, then debating with you is pointless...

As for Pr, get him in here, my thread and premise are solid...

Originally posted by carver9
And even after reigniting a star, he got his face ripped in by people that Doom beat.

Combat showings dont automatically equal raw power level...

Originally posted by carver9
But you are picking and choosing. Black Adam is where he is at due to who he has fought and what he has done during those fights. He isn't in that tier because he ignited a star, busted a planet, traveled through space at high speed, or survived in a black hole. At least be consistent with your argument. Black Adam took on the entirety of the JSA that had a group of low to High Heralds, JOH ignited a Star. Who would win the majority between Black Adam and JOH?

Originally posted by Utrigita
What wait, isn't the LT lying dead on the moon?
That takes place before the Incursion event in Hickman's Avengers.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
My mind has nothing to do with this.

You made a thread with the intention of a character not being able to beat anyone in the thread, and you won't accept any of his feats as reasons for being a low herald.

Your intention was to call out Doom "fanboys", and try and rub it in their face that no matter how hard they tried, that Doom wasn't a low herald (even though the forum voted for him to be) and couldn't beat anyone in this thread. As well as trying to make him go down a tier for no reason. And calling me a Doom fanboy for just using the exact same logic you're using for JoH, but with actual feats too... What is this called if it isn't bait?

But if you don't believe it's a bait thread, then you wouldn't mind Pr popping in here?
He clearly got tired of Thanos and decided to try out Doom-baiting instead.

I hope Mindset rapes him to death for this.

Originally posted by carver9
So Zop Zop comment was pointless?

Aren't they always

Originally posted by Epicurus
He clearly got tired of Thanos and decided to try out Doom-baiting instead.

I hope Mindset rapes him to death for this.

No Doom baiting here other than for overly sensitive fanboys who cant bare the thought of someone suggesting that their mantle-piece character is a High Meta opposed to a Low Herald...

Mindset cant rape me for this by the way as I'm right; I just presented the thread (and thus the idea behind it) in an incorrect fashion...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Mindset cant rape me for this by the way as I'm right; I just presented the thread (and thus the idea behind it) in an incorrect fashion...

The only way you can keep Mindset from raping you is consent awesr

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
No Doom baiting here other than for overly sensitive fanboys who cant bare the thought of someone suggesting that their mantle-piece character is a High Meta opposed to a Low Herald...

Mindset cant rape me for this by the way as I'm right; I just presented the thread (and thus the idea behind it) in an incorrect fashion...

Rulk killed a Watcher with his fist whereas, Binary destroy a sun. Which isbmore impressive?

Why is this perceived herald power level dictated by damage output. Doom has crazy defense. He is the royce Gracie of comics

Originally posted by Epicurus
That takes place before the Incursion event in Hickman's Avengers.

Ahh, thanks

Branlor is right. This is an obvious bait thread. It's simple. Any argument that comes up... The thread owner comes in to debunk them all. A true non bait thread wouldn't require such blatant interaction.

Lordofmurder is but hurt over god knows why.

And btw... Saying you have so and so doom issues is like a racist saying I have one black friend... Really... One? We are talking about doom and you bring up doom 2099...

If this is not a bait thread then you should check yourself out of responding to everyone. Otherwise prove Branlors' right. :-/

Doom oneshots them all.

Originally posted by rotiart
Branlor is right. This is an obvious bait thread. It's simple. Any argument that comes up... The thread owner comes in to debunk them all. A true non bait thread wouldn't require such blatant interaction.

Lordofmurder is but hurt over god knows why.

And btw... Saying you have so and so doom issues is like a racist saying I have one black friend... Really... One? We are talking about doom and you bring up doom 2099...

If this is not a bait thread then you should check yourself out of responding to everyone. Otherwise prove Branlors' right. :-/ This is lom's m.o. from day one.