Itachi vs Dr Manhattan

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USSJ
200m
abandoned city
healthy itachi

how does this go

Q99
What?

Of course Dr. Manhattan wins. He can exist in multiple paces at once, survive molecular disassembling, and similarly just erase Itachi.

Bentley
Itachi uses Izanami and Manhattan sees himself forever trapped in Genjutsu. The end.

Q99
Originally posted by Bentley
Itachi uses Izanami and Manhattan sees himself forever trapped in Genjutsu. The end.

Izanami stops working when you're willing to self-examine... and what of his ability to be in multiple places at once? Or, for that matter, to see the future and thus know it is an illusion and how to beat it?


It does no good to trap one Dr. Manhattan only for another instance of himself to win, or to be freed quickly.

yungz22
theres been a lot of fascination with itachi lately.. did i miss something?

Bentley
Originally posted by Q99
Izanami stops working when you're willing to self-examine...

Something Manhattan was unable to do without Laurie's help thumb up

Originally posted by Q99
and what of his ability to be in multiple places at once? Or, for that matter, to see the future and thus know it is an illusion and how to beat it?

He will see through the future and see himself helpless in that illusion, his ability is to see the future and do nothing about it. If he's helpless to deal with Izanami he'll see himself be helpless in the future.


Originally posted by Q99
It does no good to trap one Dr. Manhattan only for another instance of himself to win, or to be freed quickly.

Manhattan is an idiot at fighting, by that token he can be tricked into Genjutsu.

yungz22
people act like izanami is easy to break out of. If the opponent doesnt know the requirements needed to be release form it they are gonns be under the illusion for quite some time

Time Immemorial
Manhattan does not need to fight, he thinks and it happens.

Q99
He's bad at fighting, but he is also at 'wave hand and Itachi is gone' level, and nor can he really be stopped.


Originally posted by yungz22
people act like izanami is easy to break out of. If the opponent doesnt know the requirements needed to be release form it they are gonns be under the illusion for quite some time

But he is going to know how it works.

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by Q99
He's bad at fighting, but he is also at 'wave hand and Itachi is gone' level, and nor can he really be stopped.




But he is going to know how it works.

How would you need to know how to fight when literally you cannot be hurt, stopped or bothered with. Man raises his hand to fight a good fight, a god raises his hand and the fight ends quicker then it started.

Q99
I should say, if Itachi doesn't get a chance- quite likely, it's a long jutsu- he won't know, but if he somehow does, he will.

Bentley
Originally posted by Q99
But he is going to know how it works.

How? Manhattan is used to be omniscient, he'll see an illusion and be convinced it's perfectly real because he's used to see through everything. For Kabuto perceiving a loop is innatural because his time perceptions tell him things are not going as they should, Manhattan has no way of distinguishing the loop.

dadudemon
Near Godlike omniscience that can only be clouded by tachyon emissions? So how is Itachi supposed to stop Dr. Manhattan's precognition ability, again?


There is literally nothing Itachi can try to attempt that will get around Manhattan's precognition abilities.


But to assume Dr. Manhattan's anatomy is susceptible to things like gentjutsu requires quite a bit of suspension of disbelief.

Bentley
Well, if Dr. Manhattan is inmune to Genjutsu then this is huge spite right? g_grin

NemeBro
Manhattan has the perception speed and reaction-time to observe subatomic particles in motion.

I am pretty sure he wins.

chasedown
Is dr manhattan all knowing?

Jmanghan
You posted in the wrong thread, this belongs in Foreign Cinema, since Anime and Comic Books are completely different.

SSJGGogeta
Is this thread serious?

Itachi solo's...

Just kidding, i'm not retarded.

Dr. Manhattan solo's the HST in 1 second.

SSJGGogeta
BTW, the Izanami argument is retarded, considering Dr. Manhatten has slight omnipresence, and can break the tangent where he got caught in Izanami and Itachi's left blind in one eye and without Susano'o. Then Dr. M atomizes him instantly.

Bentley
But how can you break out of a time loop if your time perception won't allow you to recognize it. Manhattan could be looped into it, by using his incredible perfection as a form of blindness: Manhattan becomes much easier to trick because he thinks he knows everything. He can be rather underperforming under an illusion because he's used to his boosted perceptions, the comics back up this claim.

chasedown
Thinking you know everything and actually knowing everything are too different things.... I dont think dr manhattan is all knowing so izanami should work unless itachi tells him the rules to get out of it

God Cloth Seiya
The doctor wins as usual

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
But how can you break out of a time loop if your time perception won't allow you to recognize it. Manhattan could be looped into it, by using his incredible perfection as a form of blindness: Manhattan becomes much easier to trick because he thinks he knows everything. He can be rather underperforming under an illusion because he's used to his boosted perceptions, the comics back up this claim.

He would realize he's in an illusion when he can't see into the future past the battle. In other words, instantly.

Again, my statement still stands, and your argument is retarded.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Thinking you know everything and actually knowing everything are too different things.... I dont think dr manhattan is all knowing so izanami should work unless itachi tells him the rules to get out of it

no

"He would realize he's in an illusion when he can't see into the future past the battle. In other words, instantly.

Again, my statement still stands, and your argument is retarded."

Idiot.

Bentley
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
He would realize he's in an illusion when he can't see into the future past the battle. In other words, instantly.

Again, my statement still stands, and your argument is retarded.

But he'd see the future, he'd see the battle continuing forever. Maybe in that situation he'll think he's seeing the present: for Manhattan there is no difference. And that's the whole issue, Manhattan doesn't perceive time, your argument is that he will "see into the future", but he cannot.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
But he'd see the future, he'd see the battle continuing forever. Maybe in that situation he'll think he's seeing the present: for Manhattan there is no difference. And that's the whole issue, Manhattan doesn't perceive time, your argument is that he will "see into the future", but he cannot.

He has a non-linear perception of time, he doesn't have a lack of time perception.

He can experience different periods whenever he pleases in his life, meaning he will see the fight continuing endlessly, alter his consciousness into separate entities and kill Itachi since he's already out of Izanami then.

Again, the simple fact is that he lives in his past, present and future at the same time, and that he can distinguish the three. "He would realize he's in an illusion when he can't see into the future past the battle. In other words, instantly."

Bentley
I don't think he can "alter his consciousness into separate entities" although by the way you stated it, you probably mean he will just see into a time in which he'll be free from Izanami and then just kill Itachi. That assumes he can get out of Izanami at all. There is no reason to believe Manhattan's perceptions would allow him to escape Izanami, he still has to get out of the Genjutsu like anyone else.

Even if he realizes instantly that he's in an illusion (for the sake of the argument, I think it would take him some time to do so), that doesn't free him from Genjutsu at that specific point. He'd have to work for it, and he's too oblivious to actually find himself and get out of it.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
I don't think he can "alter his consciousness into separate entities" although by the way you stated it, you probably mean he will just see into a time in which he'll be free from Izanami and then just kill Itachi. That assumes he can get out of Izanami at all. There is no reason to believe Manhattan's perceptions would allow him to escape Izanami, he still has to get out of the Genjutsu like anyone else.

Even if he realizes instantly that he's in an illusion (for the sake of the argument, I think it would take him some time to do so), that doesn't free him from Genjutsu at that specific point. He'd have to work for it, and he's too oblivious to actually find himself and get out of it.

Doctor Manhattan can make separate consciousnesses from his own by simply willing them to be. What I'm saying, is that he would do so and the other version of him would be out of it, because it's not a clone, but a literal other Doctor Manhattan. In other words, from Itachi's POV, DM would be hit by Izanami, but other conscious DM's would start appearing, and kill him.

Again, DM has a non-linear perception of time, but he still can perceive time. The only difference is that he experiences it all at once, meaning he can instantly react to things as long as they fall under his range of ability. Breaking out of Izanami by splitting his consciousness, and killing Itachi DEFINITELY falls in that range, as he only needs to use two of his multiple abilities, assuming Itachi can catch him in it in the first place before he's vaporized.

Lek Kuen
Manhattan doesn't react to the future in the present though, he just lets it all happen as was seen several times in the comic. According to him, he can't actually do anything about it otherwise he would have been doing so back before he became apathetic.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Manhattan doesn't react to the future in the present though, he just lets it all happen as was seen several times in the comic. According to him, he can't actually do anything about it otherwise he would have been doing so back before he became apathetic.

Did you get that from watching the Watchmen movie?

Anyway, that's not true at all. Why do you think that DM ended the Vietnam war in one week without destroying anything other than the Vietcong?

He can change and alter the future but he doesn't see the need to often times because if he averts one crisis, an even bigger one can occur.

Yes, he does react to the future in the present. What don't you get about "He's experiencing it all at the same time"? He's literally watching himself in third person do everything at once.

Lek Kuen
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Did you get that from watching the Watchmen movie?

Anyway, that's not true at all. Why do you think that DM ended the Vietnam war in one week without destroying anything other than the Vietcong?

He can change and alter the future but he doesn't see the need to often times because if he averts one crisis, an even bigger one can occur.

Yes, he does react to the future in the present. What don't you get about "He's experiencing it all at the same time"? He's literally watching himself in third person do everything at once.

In his world that's just how vietnam ended. He flat out says he has no control over the future, and we see him not react to things. Like when he was shocked when Comedian killed the woman, he knew it would happen and at that point in time he wasn't found of it but still acted surprised. He got upset and angry at the press conference when the cancer thing happened, despite knowing that would be the reveal. "I'm just a puppet that can see the strings" is how he describes it, he still has the same conversations and lets all the bad events happen even when it upsets him. He doesn't change his future he lives it, everything that happened to him was the way it always happened. He expressed remorse at certain things happening, if he could stop it he would have. Despite knowing it he always acts the same way without fail, his future and past never change.

Wei Phoenix
Well he mentioned the comic in that quote so I think he got that from reading the comic.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
In his world that's just how vietnam ended. He flat out says he has no control over the future, and we see him not react to things. Like when he was shocked when Comedian killed the woman, he knew it would happen and at that point in time he wasn't found of it but still acted surprised. He got upset and angry at the press conference when the cancer thing happened, despite knowing that would be the reveal. "I'm just a puppet that can see the strings" is how he describes it, he still has the same conversations and lets all the bad events happen even when it upsets him. He doesn't change his future he lives it, everything that happened to him was the way it always happened. He expressed remorse at certain things happening, if he could stop it he would have. Despite knowing it he always acts the same way without fail, his future and past never change.

Wait was he saying that Dr. M altered history/time by ending the Vietnam War faster in the comic than how long it lasted in our real world?

Lek Kuen
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Wait was he saying that Dr. M altered history/time by ending the Vietnam War faster in the comic than how long it lasted in our real world?

He brought it up, so I assume so.

NemeBro
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Did you get that from watching the Watchmen movie?

Anyway, that's not true at all. Why do you think that DM ended the Vietnam war in one week without destroying anything other than the Vietcong?

He can change and alter the future but he doesn't see the need to often times because if he averts one crisis, an even bigger one can occur.

Yes, he does react to the future in the present. What don't you get about "He's experiencing it all at the same time"? He's literally watching himself in third person do everything at once.

He can't change what he sees in the future in the present.

"We're all puppets Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

Lek Kuen
I don't know much about Itachi, I stopped with Naruto back when the timeskip happened but I know about Manhattan. And his on the fly combat time changing is a forum myth.

The scan where he says he has no control over the future and can't change it.


http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/jalekmoye/th_manhattan.jpg

chasedown
Then izanami is a viable offense for itachi to imploy since from my research it seems that dr manhattan has a lot of internal conflict figuring out how to break the loop should be hard for him

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by chasedown
Then izanami is a viable offense for itachi to imploy since from my research it seems that dr manhattan has a lot of internal conflict figuring out how to break the loop should be hard for him

Dr. Manhattan is still so far above him in power though, don't see how Itachi would use such a tactic before Dr. M just erases him.

chasedown
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Dr. Manhattan is still so far above him in power though, don't see how Itachi would use such a tactic before Dr. M just erases him.

im just stating possible ways for itachi to win
he doesnt have to kill him trapping someone in eternal genjutsu is just fine.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by chasedown
im just stating possible ways for itachi to win
he doesnt have to kill him trapping someone in eternal genjutsu is just fine.

Wait if he uses Izanami then that means he can no longer use Susanoo: then again a blind Madara did it so who knows.

chasedown
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wait if he uses Izanami then that means he can no longer use Susanoo: then again a blind Madara did it so who knows.

If dh gets caught in izanami susanoo isnt needed

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wait if he uses Izanami then that means he can no longer use Susanoo: then again a blind Madara did it so who knows.

When did blind Madara use Susano'o?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
im just stating possible ways for itachi to win
he doesnt have to kill him trapping someone in eternal genjutsu is just fine.

You completely ignored what he said. Itachi can't use Izanami instantly. DM can vaporize him before his synapses fire to tell his brain that he's going to use Izanami.

SSJGGogeta
You guys don't understand. I'm not saying that DM can change the past or future. I'm saying that he would simply see the future going on in Izanami, and separate his consciousness and be out of it instantly. Izanami demonstrably only works on one person at a time. Manhattan can simply will himself to be a hundred people.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You completely ignored what he said. Itachi can't use Izanami instantly. DM can vaporize him before his synapses fire to tell his brain that he's going to use Izanami.


Did disagree with him? No all i was stating was possible offenses for itachi to use in order to win

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Manhattan can simply will himself to be a hundred people.

Scans?

You may be right idk much about DM but i need to see scans of a feat like that.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Scans?

You may be right idk much about DM but i need to see scans of a feat like that.

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/features/watchmen_trailer/Watchmen24.jpg

I take it you've never read or seen Watchmen.

Here's the quote, "I wish you would stop making those clone things, they're creepy.", "They're not clones, they are entities separate from my own consciousness, they are me, and at the same time are not.", "That makes it even worse!".

That's not the exact quote, but a rough one from my recollection.

Lek Kuen
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You guys don't understand. I'm not saying that DM can change the past or future.

Actually you did

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Why do you think that DM ended the Vietnam war in one week without destroying anything other than the Vietcong?

He can change and alter the future

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Actually you did

I meant that he can change the future collectively, but not his own. It's difficult to explain because it's completely imperceivable to humans, but you get what I meant.

He can, to a degree, change other peoples future, but he can't do anything that he hasn't already done, because of his non-linear time perception.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I meant that he can change the future collectively, but not his own. It's difficult to explain because it's completely imperceivable to humans, but you get what I meant.

He can, to a degree, change other peoples future, but he can't do anything that he hasn't already done, because of his non-linear time perception.

Lol i clearly said i dont know much about DM im asking you to educate me no need for the insult.

Thats the movie i meant scans of the actual graphic novel. Ive heard the movie has some discrepancies.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
Lol i clearly said i dont know much about DM im asking you to educate me no need for the insult.

Thats the movie i meant scans of the actual graphic novel. Ive heard the movie has some discrepancies.

First off, you quoted the wrong thing from me.

Secondly, how is me saying "I take it you've never watched or read Watchmen" an insult? You're ignorant on the topic. Clear cut. Not an insult, just a fact.

Lastly, that is true. However, I don't want to take the time to find the page, so meh. That particular quote was very accurate anyway.

Lek Kuen
I don't think he said that in the comic, but the idea is true. He splits himself off more than once and they are all him and act independently in what he would do.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I don't think he said that in the comic, but the idea is true. He splits himself off more than once and they are all him and act independently in what he would do.

Like I said, it's not the exact quote, so forgive me for small details, but it is generally what he said.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
First off, you quoted the wrong thing from me.

Secondly, how is me saying "I take it you've never watched or read Watchmen" an insult? You're ignorant on the topic. Clear cut. Not an insult, just a fact.

Lastly, that is true. However, I don't want to take the time to find the page, so meh. That particular quote was very accurate anyway.

It condescending but ok

Bentley
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Doctor Manhattan can make separate consciousnesses from his own by simply willing them to be. What I'm saying, is that he would do so and the other version of him would be out of it, because it's not a clone, but a literal other Doctor Manhattan. In other words, from Itachi's POV, DM would be hit by Izanami, but other conscious DM's would start appearing, and kill him.

Again, DM has a non-linear perception of time, but he still can perceive time. The only difference is that he experiences it all at once, meaning he can instantly react to things as long as they fall under his range of ability. Breaking out of Izanami by splitting his consciousness, and killing Itachi DEFINITELY falls in that range, as he only needs to use two of his multiple abilities, assuming Itachi can catch him in it in the first place before he's vaporized.

Manhattan cannot change the past nor the future, this means that if he created a clone before entering Izanami then he's safe, if he doesn't then he cannot just do it in the past. That's how his powers are described several times in the series.

chasedown
Originally posted by Bentley
Manhattan cannot change the past nor the future, this means that if he created a clone before entering Izanami then he's safe, if he doesn't then he cannot just do it in the past. That's how his powers are described several times in the series.

yea im thinking if he was under izanami what would slitting yourself up do to break him out of it. They would all be caught in the jutsu.
especially with all the internal conflict this guy harbors

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
Manhattan cannot change the past nor the future, this means that if he created a clone before entering Izanami then he's safe, if he doesn't then he cannot just do it in the past. That's how his powers are described several times in the series.

HE DOESN'T NEED TO DO IT IN THE PAST.

You clearly don't understand that these ARE NOT CLONES.

They are separate versions of him, all completely equal to him, as they are different bodies of his consciousness. They can simply come out of him, and they won't be under Izanami, because Izanami has no showings of being used on more than a single person at once.

dadudemon
Originally posted by chasedown
Then izanami is a viable offense for itachi to imploy since from my research it seems that dr manhattan has a lot of internal conflict figuring out how to break the loop should be hard for him

I conclude the opposite. Since he can see the future he will know what to do to avoid that. What Dr. Manhattan is referring to is the preordained/predestined unfolding of events.

For all we know, DM knows that Itachi will try mind tricks and it is predestined for Jon to circumvent it and vaporize Itachi.


That path is just as likely as Itachi trapping DM in a genjutsu.


Between those two poles is a nearly infinite number of possibilities and outcomes. The purpose of this thread is to determine which of these nearly infinite possibilities is the most probable outcome and decide upon a winner.



Based on that, it should be quite clear that Dr. M. has the upperhand in all but a few miniscule number of outcomes and scenarios.

Therefore, the conclusion should be in favor of Dr. M. and not Itachi.

Lek Kuen
Originally posted by dadudemon
I conclude the opposite. Since he can see the future he will know what to do to avoid that. What Dr. Manhattan is referring to is the preordained/predestined unfolding of events.

For all we know, DM knows that Itachi will try mind tricks and it is predestined for Jon to circumvent it and vaporize Itachi.


That path is just as likely as Itachi trapping DM in a genjutsu.



Yes this is why I think generally speaking we should ignore his future sight and focus on his other abilities, since by his own admission he has to play things out as if he didn't know the future anyway.

Bentley
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
HE DOESN'T NEED TO DO IT IN THE PAST.

You clearly don't understand that these ARE NOT CLONES.

They are separate versions of him, all completely equal to him, as they are different bodies of his consciousness. They can simply come out of him, and they won't be under Izanami, because Izanami has no showings of being used on more than a single person at once.

Mr. Manhattan can use such tactics but he never used them on battle, he's certainly less aggressive than Itachi when using his speed so to assume he'll always split into several Manhattans from the get to go is a bit odd.

Specially if we consider that I'm providing the only viable scenario in which Itachi wins. The likeness of these odds are a different matter entirely, and they are not worth of discussion until we determine if Itachi can win at all.

chasedown
Originally posted by dadudemon
I conclude the opposite. Since he can see the future he will know what to do to avoid that. What Dr. Manhattan is referring to is the preordained/predestined unfolding of events.

For all we know, DM knows that Itachi will try mind tricks and it is predestined for Jon to circumvent it and vaporize Itachi.


That path is just as likely as Itachi trapping DM in a genjutsu.


Between those two poles is a nearly infinite number of possibilities and outcomes. The purpose of this thread is to determine which of these nearly infinite possibilities is the most probable outcome and decide upon a winner.



Based on that, it should be quite clear that Dr. M. has the upperhand in all but a few miniscule number of outcomes and scenarios.

Therefore, the conclusion should be in favor of Dr. M. and not Itachi.

I thought from what i read some of you guys say he cant alter the future so whats seeing into the future gonna do if your gonna be put under it. He can know that hes gonna get put under it but if itachi doesnt tell him how to get out wouldnt izanami still be a problem for a mentally conflicted character like him?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
Mr. Manhattan can use such tactics but he never used them on battle, he's certainly less aggressive than Itachi when using his speed so to assume he'll always split into several Manhattans from the get to go is a bit odd.

Specially if we consider that I'm providing the only viable scenario in which Itachi wins. The likeness of these odds are a different matter entirely, and they are not worth of discussion until we determine if Itachi can win at all.

True. He usually just vaporizes whoever he wants to. However, he's been shown to be perfectly capable of using his personal omniscience to his advantage in battle. Either way, Manhattan has a way of escaping Izanami casually and Itachi can't harm him with his strongest technique, making this a moot point.

So then what are the terms of victory here? I was assuming that it would be death. So what, if Manhattan got caught in it at all, he instantly loses? That's dumb, considering he can easily get out of it and atomize Itachi.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
I thought from what i read some of you guys say he cant alter the future so whats seeing into the future gonna do if your gonna be put under it. He can know that hes gonna get put under it but if itachi doesnt tell him how to get out wouldnt izanami still be a problem for a mentally conflicted character like him?

Why are you asking this?

I already explained. DM can will his consciousness to separate, meaning that his body can split into a literal OTHER DM, meaning the other him wouldn't be in Izanami, as it has only been shown to work on one person at once. This would mean the other DM would kill Itachi, and re-integrate the other DM into his own body without being in a loop as it would already be broken, rendering Izanami useless.

Bentley

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Why are you asking this?

I already explained. DM can will his consciousness to separate, meaning that his body can split into a literal OTHER DM, meaning the other him wouldn't be in Izanami, as it has only been shown to work on one person at once. This would mean the other DM would kill Itachi, and re-integrate the other DM into his own body without being in a loop as it would already be broken, rendering Izanami useless.

I know what you saying but if he was already under the genjutsu making clones of yourself isnt gonna break you out of it. If it was that easy kabuto could have done the same because clones in the naruto verse have seperate consciousness also they act on their own.

Itachi told kabuto how to get out of it and he still was under the genjutsu for quite some time its not easy to get out of.

And someone like Dm who constantly is mentally conflicted should have a hard time maybe even harder time getting out. I just read up on dm on i think izanami can really work as powerful as he is he really seems to lack a great deal of self confidence.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
I know what you saying but if he was already under the genjutsu making clones of yourself isnt gonna break you out of it. If it was that easy kabuto could have done the same because clones in the naruto verse have seperate consciousness also they act on their own.

Itachi told kabuto how to get out of it and he still was under the genjutsu for quite some time its not easy to get out of.

And someone like Dm who constantly is mentally conflicted should have a hard time maybe even harder time getting out. I just read up on dm on i think izanami can really work as powerful as he is he really seems to lack a great deal of self confidence.

You obviously don't know what I'm saying. This is the last time I'm saying this. He literally SPLITS his consciousness into other beings that are LITERALLY NOT him. Not clones. Actual separate beings.

Bentley
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You obviously don't know what I'm saying. This is the last time I'm saying this. He literally SPLITS his consciousness into other beings that are LITERALLY NOT him. Not clones. Actual separate beings.

I don't understand your point, are you saying that such method should perfectly counter any genjutsu? I agree that if it was used before Izanami got off it should work, but I don't see it as a valid strategy afterwards.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You obviously don't know what I'm saying. This is the last time I'm saying this. He literally SPLITS his consciousness into other beings that are LITERALLY NOT him. Not clones. Actual separate beings.

Splitting yourself up would negate genjutsu?

therapist1
Dr. Manhattan would whoop basically anyone. He is written out to have God-like powers.

But I like Itachi more as a character.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by therapist1
Dr. Manhattan would whoop basically anyone. He is written out to have God-like powers.

But I like Itachi more as a character.

Except... well, really any galaxy level+ character.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Bentley
I don't understand your point, are you saying that such method should perfectly counter any genjutsu? I agree that if it was used before Izanami got off it should work, but I don't see it as a valid strategy afterwards.

My point is that he can create other versions of himself. Literally a different person. Therefor, because Izanami can't work on more than one person at once, it will instantly be negated.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
My point is that he can create other versions of himself. Literally a different person. Therefor, because Izanami can't work on more than one person at once, it will instantly be negated.

That wouldnt negate it if he was already under the genjutsu tho. If that were the case kabuto could have just done that. The clones in naruto have seperate consciouses and have the ability to act on their own. Weve seen them have conversations with ppl on their own and think for themselves throughout the series

Power isnt the only factor in a fight you have to look at all variables.
Yes dr.manhattan is near god like but something like izanami would be his kryptonite. I recently read watchmen and doctor manhattan is one of the most mentally conflicted characters ive ever seen. For someone so strong he lacks a great deal of self confidence and sometimes even views himself as weak. Izanami is a jutsu that would take advantage of those flaws lying within dr. Manhattans character.

therapist1
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Except... well, really any galaxy level+ character.

I consider Manhattan to be galaxy level+. His powers develop as time goes by and he already has the ability to control all matter. There's no getting by him.

Originally posted by chasedown
That wouldnt negate it if he was already under the genjutsu tho. If that were the case kabuto could have just done that. The clones in naruto have seperate consciouses and have the ability to act on their own. Weve seen them have conversations with ppl on their own and think for themselves throughout the series

Power isnt the only factor in a fight you have to look at all variables.
Yes dr.manhattan is near god like but something like izanami would be his kryptonite. I recently read watchmen and doctor manhattan is one of the most mentally conflicted characters ive ever seen. For someone so strong he lacks a great deal of self confidence and sometimes even views himself as weak. Izanami is a jutsu that would take advantage of those flaws lying within dr. Manhattans character.

Manhattan is likely to be immune to genjutsu because he can analyze and control matter. He can be taken by surprise if you are smart enough, but he cannot be destroyed and as soon as he catches on, he will have a solution ready.

He is mentally conflicted because he is so powerful and can see things so clearly that it makes it hard for him to connect even though it's his job as a symbol of America's power; not because he has some sort of human weakness to exploit like fear or a lack of self-confidence. He certainly doesn't view himself as weak, where did you ever read that? The point of his character is that he is so beyond human he doesn't fall emotions like that.

chasedown
Originally posted by therapist1
I consider Manhattan to be galaxy level+. His powers develop as time goes by and he already has the ability to control all matter. There's no getting by him.



Manhattan is likely to be immune to genjutsu because he can analyze and control matter. He can be taken by surprise if you are smart enough, but he cannot be destroyed and as soon as he catches on, he will have a solution ready.

He is mentally conflicted because he is so powerful and can see things so clearly that it makes it hard for him to connect even though it's his job as a symbol of America's power; not because he has some sort of human weakness to exploit like fear or a lack of self-confidence. He certainly doesn't view himself as weak, where did you ever read that? The point of his character is that he is so beyond human he doesn't fall emotions like that.

The fact that he is mentally conflicted is the reason why izanami may work against him. It doesnt matter why or why not he is conflicted.

I meant weak figuratively not in a literal physical sense. Hes called himself a puppet before. This suggest he believes he is a small part im a much larger scheme

therapist1
Originally posted by chasedown
The fact that he is mentally conflicted is the reason why izanami may work against him. It doesnt matter why or why not he is conflicted.

I meant weak figuratively not in a literal physical sense. Hes called himself a puppet before. This suggest he believes he is a small part im a much larger scheme

In the scheme of time and space and physical happenings of it, not illusionary tactics. If it's not real matter, there is no reason Manhattan shouldn't be able to see through it.

He can be tricked, like how Adrian set him up, but he was only fanning the flames of what Manhattan already wanted. Mind tricks not using real things are not likely to work on Manhattan, and even if they did, how would Itachi do the final deed and kill him? He couldn't.

I will say though, the same as Manhattan commended Adrian for being a smart guy, Itachi would also get praised before getting squashed like a bug. I prefer Itachi as a character no human is ever going to be able to beat Manhattan

chasedown
Originally posted by therapist1
In the scheme of time and space and physical happenings of it, not illusionary tactics. If it's not real matter, there is no reason Manhattan shouldn't be able to see through it.

He can be tricked, like how Adrian set him up, but he was only fanning the flames of what Manhattan already wanted. Mind tricks not using real things are not likely to work on Manhattan, and even if they did, how would Itachi do the final deed and kill him? He couldn't.

I will say though, the same as Manhattan commended Adrian for being a smart guy, Itachi would also get praised before getting squashed like a bug. I prefer Itachi as a character no human is ever going to be able to beat Manhattan
You dont have to kill somebody to beat them and just because hed know he was under an illusion doesnt mean hed be able to get out of it easily. Dr. Manhattan still has senses and that is what genjutsu attacks. This particular genjutsu is one that can only be broken if dr manhattan finds inner piece within himself. That is something that would take him quite a long time to do. As a matter of fact he may even thank itschi for putting him under it because dr.manhattan still is trying to find himself

SSJGGogeta
Yes, but if Manhattan could get out of Izanami, and kill Itachi, then it wouldn't matter if he landed it, would it?

Not to mention this is pointless anyways. It takes Itachi time to gather enough chakra for Izanami, and in the first nano-second, he'd be dead.

This whole thread is pointless. Manhattan would atomize Itachi before his synapses could fire, telling him to cast Izanami, even if he COULD use it immediately. The fight starts and Itachi's dead. The end.

BloodRain
Not bothered to devils advocate ways that Itachi might stand a chance.

The good doctor cleans house.

StealthRanger
People are seriously arguing for Itachi *looks at usernames*

Well I can't say I'm totally surprised

Quincy
I'm not sure that Doctor Manhattan CAN die. He just atomizes Itachi. /thread

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Quincy
I'm not sure that Doctor Manhattan CAN die. He just atomizes Itachi. /thread

He can die, but not from any means that Itachi could even fathom. His Amaterasu is "as hot as the sun", but Manhattan literally WALKED on the sun before.

Itachi has literally NOTHING he can do here.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
People are seriously arguing for Itachi *looks at usernames*

Well I can't say I'm totally surprised

Right?

Quincy
I'm with Gogeta ^

This thread is nonsense.

chasedown
i think dr manhattan would win a majority of the times but i also think itachi can win a couple times.

Quincy
I dont know, killer. The good doctor lives all of time at once, realistically speaking he's ALREADY stomped Itachi countless times.

Q99
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
He can die, but not from any means that Itachi could even fathom. His Amaterasu is "as hot as the sun", but Manhattan literally WALKED on the sun before.

Itachi has literally NOTHING he can do here.



Yes. I can think of fictional characters that can handle Dr. Manhattan, but it is not a long list, and Itachi is not on it.

NemeBro
I can name lots of characters who would bully Dr. Manhattan.

Tzeentch
No you can't.

chasedown
just remember as powerful dr. manhattan is very melancholy and he very conflicted within. he blames himself for literally almost everything wrong is his life.

cdtm
Originally posted by Q99
Yes. I can think of fictional characters that can handle Dr. Manhattan, but it is not a long list, and Itachi is not on it.

No question.

Although, how powerful is he, really? A lot of people play him up like he's trans tier, above Green Lanterns or someone like Silver Surfer, when his list of feats is actually pretty sparse..

More then Itachi could handle, either way.

Sacred 117
Originally posted by chasedown
just remember as powerful dr. manhattan is very melancholy and he very conflicted within. he blames himself for literally almost everything wrong is his life.

And? All that means is that Itachi gets romped endlessly by an apathetic malcontent.

chasedown
Originally posted by Sacred 117
And? All that means is that Itachi gets romped endlessly by an apathetic malcontent.

his confliction would be his main weakness when it comes to getting out of izanami.... just playing devils advocate

Sacred 117
Originally posted by chasedown
his confliction would be his main weakness when it comes to getting out of izanami.... just playing devils advocate

You've been told already. He doesn't need to get out of it because he's already out, and that's assuming it would work OR that Itachi could even process the thought in time.

chasedown
oh yea def izanami would only work if hes able to set dr. into a loop...... likelyhood of it occuring very small but possible

Sacred 117
Originally posted by chasedown
oh yea def izanami would only work if hes able to set dr. into a loop...... likelyhood of it occuring very small but possible

Actually, no. Nothing he can do would put Manhattan in a loop given that he experiences time through a non-linear perspective, and simultaneously living in the present, future, AND past doesn't help Itachi's case even slightly. Not only would Itachi not know what to do, but the Doctor would know what he's going to do before he did and simply turn him to glass with a twitch of his eyebrow before he had a chance to think about it.

Quincy
There's five pages of this. This is embarassing.

Q99
At the end of the series Manhattan isn't even really conflicted, he came out of things with a new outlook towards life.

Originally posted by cdtm
No question.

Although, how powerful is he, really? A lot of people play him up like he's trans tier, above Green Lanterns or someone like Silver Surfer, when his list of feats is actually pretty sparse..


Well, it's almost impossible to kill him (harder to kill than GLs), he can be in many places at once, erase people with a gesture, it was estimated he could stop, iirc, 70+% of Russia's nuclear arsenal (so, thousands of missiles), can create life, has the non linear time thing...

His power output may very well be smaller than a GL, but he's so versatile and, again, basically immortal, that his flexibility is greater and it's quite hard to score a win.


And one thing I want to mention, his power is still *growing*. As his understanding of physics increases, so do his abilities. He still learns new tricks. Being in multiple places at once was a newly developed technique of his. The 'stop 70+% of Russia's nukes' was, likely, conservative and based on old data. His limits are still unknown.

Sacred 117
Originally posted by Quincy
There's five pages of this. This is embarassing.

I couldn't agree more. thumb up

Lek Kuen
To be fair with the non linear time thing, it has no baring on a fight since he can't alter what he experiences in the future in the present. He always does what is supposed to happen.

So just not really something worth bringing up in arguments. Since he can't like change battle plans or anything, he has no free will.

Quincy
That's fair

cdtm
Seems that way.

Whether it's apathy, Genis-vell like madness, or a simple inability to change events like The Source entity (Or Sarda, for those familiar with 8 bit theater.)

Lek Kuen
The way he described it sounded like the last one. Since it isn't apathy since he could still care about things for a while and would still let things he didn't want happen, or get bothered by stuff. Because it had to play out that way

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by NemeBro
I can name lots of characters who would bully Dr. Manhattan.

And I can probably name just as many if not more.

No one from the HST deserves to be even mentioned in a vs. against DM though.


Originally posted by chasedown
oh yea def izanami would only work if hes able to set dr. into a loop...... likelyhood of it occuring very small but possible

Not to quote Sacred, but no, actually. Even IF he was able to affect DM with Izanami, which he isn't, because you can't loop the past and present of someone that experiences it all at once, but just for the sake of argument, EVEN IF HE WAS, there's no chance that he would be able to activate it before DM was able to vaporize him. Not only does it take charge time, but even if he could use it as his first attack right off the bat, DM would turn him into glass or just vaporize him before the synapses could fire in Itachi's head to activate the attack.

It's that simple. There is no argument here. thumb up


Originally posted by Q99
Yes. I can think of fictional characters that can handle Dr. Manhattan, but it is not a long list, and Itachi is not on it.

Eh, I could name probably over a hundred off the top of my head. Yes though, no one from Naruto is on it.


Originally posted by Quincy
There's five pages of this. This is embarassing.

Right?

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
To be fair with the non linear time thing, it has no baring on a fight since he can't alter what he experiences in the future in the present. He always does what is supposed to happen.

So just not really something worth bringing up in arguments. Since he can't like change battle plans or anything, he has no free will.

That's not what we're arguing here. Spergdown is saying that Izanami would work, which it obviously wouldn't, because it makes you experience your past and present in a never ending loop that you can only break by giving up, which in turn changes the loop and therefor breaks it. However, DM experiences his past, present and future all at once, meaning he can relive any of it that's happened as he chooses. You can't loop something that happens all at once.

Not to mention the fact that he could turn him into glass before Itachi managed to process the thought that activates the attack itself.

chasedown
im just saying i think an attack that forces one to find himself is definitely a viable option for itachi to use against a self conflicted person like dm

its just that he probably wouldnt be able to get it off

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
im just saying i think an attack that forces one to find himself is definitely a viable option for itachi to use against a self conflicted person like dm

its just that he probably wouldnt be able to get it off

There's no "probably" about it.

Itachi could not land the jutsu, and if for some reason DM let him, he could just become two people and erase the loop entirely. The end.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
There's no "probably" about it.

Itachi could not land the jutsu, and if for some reason DM let him, he could just become two people and erase the loop entirely. The end.



if that was the case kabuto would have been able to get out of it as well since he can make clones.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
if that was the case kabuto would have been able to get out of it as well since he can make clones.

Shadow clones =/= Seperate people.

Manhattan can will himself to become two people, without having to use any handsigns, and just by thinking. If Kabuto could have made a clone, he would have broken it, as it would be breaking the loop. But he couldn't.

DM can.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Shadow clones =/= Seperate people.

Manhattan can will himself to become two people, without having to use any handsigns, and just by thinking. If Kabuto could have made a clone, he would have broken it, as it would be breaking the loop. But he couldn't.

DM can.

itachi an expert on his own jutsu stated how to get out of the jutsu simply making a clone of yourself was not in that description.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
itachi an expert on his own jutsu stated how to get out of the jutsu simply making a clone of yourself was not in that description.

He said you have to manage to break the loop, which in most cases is only possible to do by changing your mindset. This is because you can't move your physical body at all.

DM though can. He could simply will a separate him to come out, and it would be out of Izanami, and could atomize Itachi. Then, and that's assuming it wouldn't break the loop in the first place(which it would), could still remove Itachi's energy from the original ones brain, and then the jutsu would be gone completely. Because in case you're forgetting, Genjutsu only works if you can insert your energy into your opponents mind. thumb up

Sacred 117
Good God! Do we honestly still consider this argueable?! mariofacepalm

I swear, Genjutsu is wanked harder than the Force (not to badmouth the Force or anything).

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Sacred 117
Good God! Do we honestly still consider this argueable?! mariofacepalm

I swear, Genjutsu is wanked harder than the Force (not to badmouth the Force or anything).

Right?

And you guys wonder why I dislike these guys.

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
He said you have to manage to break the loop, which in most cases is only possible to do by changing your mindset. This is because you can't move your physical body at all.

DM though can. He could simply will a separate him to come out, and it would be out of Izanami, and could atomize Itachi. Then, and that's assuming it wouldn't break the loop in the first place(which it would), could still remove Itachi's energy from the original ones brain, and then the jutsu would be gone completely. Because in case you're forgetting, Genjutsu only works if you can insert your energy into your opponents mind. thumb up

name one genjutsu that was broken out of just by making a clone

chasedown
Originally posted by Sacred 117
Good God! Do we honestly still consider this argueable?! mariofacepalm

I swear, Genjutsu is wanked harder than the Force (not to badmouth the Force or anything).


i already stated itachi would lose so idk what your talking about.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by chasedown
name one genjutsu that was broken out of just by making a clone

Tsukiyomi.

http://i18.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567902.jpg

thumb up

Sacred 117
Originally posted by chasedown
i already stated itachi would lose so idk what your talking about.

What I'm talking about is the ongoing idea that it can flawlessly submit foes who can insurmountably out-hax them.

This is hardly the first time it's been argued.

Edit: Hell, even the pointlessly endless 'vs. DBZ' scenarios exemplify this, so never mind out-haxing.

chasedown
Originally posted by Sacred 117
What I'm talking about is the ongoing idea that it can flawlessly submit foes who can insurmountably out-hax them.

This is hardly the first time it's been argued.


it has more to do with dr.manhattans character than his power dr. manhattan is a very emotionally damaged character who is always looking to find the meaning of his existence. izanami is a jutsu that forces the on inflicted to look inside his self. that is why i think it would be affective against him.... the only problem is itachi probably wouldnt be able to get it off because he would have to put manhattan in a loop first.

its not about wanking its just that some people cant think out side the box just because you are stronger than someone doesnt mean you auto matically win. ppl like shikamaru,batman,kurama, mayuri, urahara have proven this time and time again.

Sacred 117
Originally posted by chasedown
it has more to do with dr.manhattans character than his power dr. manhattan is a very emotionally damaged character who is always looking to find the meaning of his existence. izanami is a jutsu that forces the on inflicted to look inside his self. that is why i think it would be affective against him.... the only problem is itachi probably wouldnt be able to get it off because he would have to put manhattan in a loop first.

its not about wanking its just that some people cant think out side the box just because you are stronger than someone doesnt mean you auto matically win. ppl like shikamaru,batman,kurama, mayuri, urahara have proven this time and time again.

Manhattan's emotional issues were resolved. Moving on.

I know, and I don't really care right now. No one ever means to wank; it just happens.

chasedown
Originally posted by Sacred 117
Manhattan's emotional issues were resolved. Moving on.

I know, and I don't really care right now. No one ever means to wank; it just happens.

dbz is pretty wanked on these forums lol


.... when and how were they resolved i dont remember

chasedown
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Tsukiyomi.

http://i18.mangapanda.com/naruto/260/naruto-1567902.jpg

thumb up


umm no itachi put the clone under genjutsu kakashi was never under it since he was underground the whole time nice try

NewGuy01
...Not to mention that it wasn't even Tsukuyomi. That was the Itachi clone that couldn't use MS, or any of his other high-tier abilities.

BeyonderGod
This match gave me cancer..........

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