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Darth Krayt's one sith order vs the sith order during the Starwars the old republic game era.

Vitiate's empire takes this one.

Vitiates empire most likely. Unless the tech difference is really high.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiates empire most likely. Unless the tech difference is really high.

The tech difference is quite high.



Vitiate's empire has more sith, but, you could likely throw 5 Harrower-class ships (the backbone of his navy) against a single Pallaeon class and lose. Pallaeon ships are bigger (almost twice as long), tougher, and have much more firepower (gun technology has improved since the days of Palpatine's Empire, let alone Vitiate's). Heck, the Ascendant Spear, Malgus's feared and overpowered super flagship... is probably a bit outmatched one-on-ene.



And the Sith Trooper program (cyborg sith, grown from childhood and modified to be completely loyal as well as formidable fighters capable of taking on Jedi/Sith masters) with Annihilator fighters and Dragon Ships... Annihilator fighters can shoot down Star Destroyers.


And dogfight wise? Wuff. Ever play the game TIE fighter, and try taking basic TIEs against TIE defenders? At *least* that bad (against any fighter they have). And the One Sith often lead squadrons with Sith pilots, so even if the Sith Empire uses force-user pilots they're still disadvantaged.


If the sides are allowed to bring their militaries, the One Sith stomp.


If not.... well, Vitiate's empire does have both more total Sith and a greater number of strong sith, but I wonder if the numbers of Sith Troopers, who are a heck of a lot stronger than rank-and-file sith, will help things out. Vitiate's still probably wins, but they take a lot of casualties for it.

Dread Masters solo.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dread Masters solo.


No, aside from being captured by a team of Jedi, showing a team of Sith could do the same, I don't think their fear powers would even *work* on Sith Troopers.


And even their fear effect isn't wide-spread enough to overcome the tech difference....

Personally, I'd give it to Legacy based on the tech difference alone. TOR definitely fields a larger amount Sith though, and it's upper tiers are quite a bit above Legacy's.

Originally posted by ares834
Personally, I'd give it to Legacy based on the tech difference alone. TOR definitely fields a larger amount Sith though, and it's upper tiers are quite a bit above Legacy's. didn't the one sith match the numbers of the jedi order which is like 20,000 Sith Lords/apprentices

Vitiate's Empire housed millions though, the numbers completely dwarf those of the One Sith.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vitiate's Empire housed millions though, the numbers completely dwarf those of the One Sith. millions of sith? Weren't there like 10 thousand jedi?

At the time of the Phantom Menace, yeah. At the time of SWTOR, the number is unknown.

In a battle between actual force users, I'm not sure who'd win. Krayt could quite easily kill most of the council, with only Nox and Malgus likely putting up a fight. I personally think Malgus could defeat Krayt, while Nox could likely defeat most of the One sith. A fight between Malgus and Krayt would be quite a sight to behold

As for Empires, I have no idea.

Originally posted by PTforthewin
didn't the one sith match the numbers of the jedi order which is like 20,000 Sith Lords/apprentices


One Sith and Legacy Jedi were each at 10k at max.


TOR had a lot more number.... but it's fairly safe to assume plenty of those were chumps (they kept so little eye on most of them that a number were able to get away with being lightside. I also suspect a number of them were what'd be called adepts or agents in other times. Even so, still a lot).

They were big enough that it still allows their reasonably strong sith to outnumber reasonably strong One Sith by a good number.

Like, sure, Krayt can beat Dark Councilors. Wyyrlok can beat a lot of them 1-on-1 too. But, there's the whole Dark Council, and they couldn't survive a big chunk of the Dark Council at once. Sure, they could bring in additional lesser sith that'd help out... but the DC could bring in more, and so on.



On the flip side, in space, if they sent a fleet of 100 capital ships against a world defended by 20, odds are not only are they not getting their 100 back, but a lot of the 20 will survive.



Hm yea, one other thing: The One Sith have Sith Leviathans, and TOR don't. Leviathans are great because numbers tactics makes them stronger, you *need* strong individuals if you want to take it down with Sith/Jedi, and/or good amounts of conventional military force... the area where the OS have the edge.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiates empire most likely. Unless the tech difference is really high.

Interesting stance considering you didn't take this into account in our earlier debate...

You mean TOR vs Banes era? That's a little different, there has been greatly detailed improvements in technology between the start of the Empire to Krayt's rule. As Q99 detailed above. Its not known if there are significant differences between TOR era tech and BoD era.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean TOR vs Banes era? That's a little different, there has been greatly detailed improvements in technology between the start of the Empire to Krayt's rule. As Q99 detailed above. Its not known if there are significant differences between TOR era tech and BoD era.

Indeed. While Bane's era is much later, the New Sith Wars caused a degradation of tech (everyone aimed to sabotage and steal everyone else's technological capacity) that likely cancelled out a lot of gains.

Iirc Hammerhead cruiser designs were of use by the Republic in *both* eras (possibly with upgrades, but still, same size and basic shape).



On the flipside, the Legacy era is the absolutely pinnacle of SW technology, as one would expect from the endpoint in the timeline. It's ships are pound-for-pound confirmed stronger than Empire era ones (the author talked about how a Scythe class has less guns, but that shouldn't be confused for less power as turbolasers have improved in rate of fire and omph), which are better than CW era ones, which come after the galaxy had a thousand years to heal from the NSW.

Originally posted by Q99

TOR had a lot more number.... but it's fairly safe to assume plenty of those were chumps (they kept so little eye on most of them that a number were able to get away with being lightside. I also suspect a number of them were what'd be called adepts or agents in other times. Even so, still a lot).

I'd actually be inclined to disagree, the TOR Era Sith really impressed me more on average than the One Sith's members. (Discluding the Sith Troopers, of course)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'd actually be inclined to disagree, the TOR Era Sith really impressed me more on average than the One Sith's members. (Discluding the Sith Troopers, of course)
Agreed

TOR Sith. Their far better trained and far more lethal.

When observing the most powerful of each respective order, you get Krayt, Wyyrlok and the hands for the One Sith, and Vitiate, Malgus, the Wrath, and the Dark Council for the Sith Empire. The Sith Empire's appear to be superior.

While their is technology gap here, I am not sure if it is going to make much difference.

It shall be noted that Republic's Hammerhead class cruisers were theoretically no match against superior cruisers made by Sith Empires but they still performed well in battles for a long time.

Technological advances are noticeable in later eras but firepower factor is also important.

TOR era Sith Empire features capabilities to produce endless supply of powerful cruisers and some of its superweapons can solo fleets and even destroy entire worlds. Nothing gets much better then this unless a Death Star is taken in to consideration.

TOR era Sith Empire represents the epitome of what Sith Order should be on the whole.

This thread contains some useful information about technology of TOR era Sith Empire: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t588347.html

Heck, it is noted in Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side that much of the latest technology is based on technological concepts of TOR era Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
No, aside from being captured by a team of Jedi, showing a team of Sith could do the same, I don't think their fear powers would even *work* on Sith Troopers.


And even their fear effect isn't wide-spread enough to overcome the tech difference....
So you think that their Force powers won't be effective against individuals of legacy era? Are you high?

Dread Masters are a big asset for TOR era Sith Empire and they can easily turn the tide of battles from safe distance with their unprecedented Force powers.

Heck, Sith Emperor have the option to pull off galaxy-busting ritual with aid of his minions to terminate everything if conflict does goes bad.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
While their is technology gap here, I am not sure if it is going to make much difference.

It shall be noted that Republic's Hammerhead class cruisers were theoretically no match against superior cruisers made by Sith Empires but they still performed well in battles for a long time.

Yes, but that's one generation difference.

This is, well, Harrower < Venator < Imperial < Imperial 2 < Pellaeon < Imperious / Dragon Ship (which are starting to come on line during the war). And there may possibly be steps between Harrower and Venator too.

Harrowers are bigger and stronger than Hammerheads, but based on basically the same tech. Pellaeons are bigger by a wider margin and have stronger, faster firing guns, better shields, faster hyperdrive, you name it.

And Dragon Ships carrying Annihilator fighters were slaughtering Pallaeons. In Legacy: War the Galactic Alliance fleet and the Fel fleet forced a confrontation on Coruscant as soon as they could because they knew they could not last against the power of the new Annihilators with their insane firepower.

Fighters in general is an area where clear, clear advancement is shown. During the course of the New Republic, X-wings go from being top-of-the-line and worth a couple times their number in TIEs, to in need of an upgrade to face newer fighters. The Sith Empire fighters are basically fodder to TIE Predators, Sith-Imperial Fighters, and of course Annihilators.






They only temporarily had the ability to produce endless before the Sun Razer was blown up, and it's a stationary, fragile target that's listed in the history books.

And their powerful cruisers.... are still a bit smaller than, and likely weaker than, the One Sith's Pellaeon ships. They can't stand against Annihilators or a large OS fleet.



Sure... based on and improved. Palpatine's Empire had much passed the TOR Sith Empire in battleships.

And the One Sith has force tech unlike anything seen in the TOR Empire in their Annihilators.





Dread Master's power causes fear, Sith Troopers are cyborgs (and despite the word 'trooper' are high-end forces, stronger than rank and file sith). I don't think they're physically capable of feeling fear. They are designed for total obedience.

The Dread Masters cannot be everywhere to begin with- even with their capabilities turning several fleet battles, they didn't cause the Republic fleet to collapse. If they are the only force capable of allowing Sith Empire forces victory (I.e. 6 battles happen throughout the galaxy. The DMs make Legacy forces panic and fail in one of them. Legacy Imperial forces slaughter in 5 others. Net advantage, One Sith), and the enemy additional has a segment of forces immune to them? Big trouble.


There is a point where fancy tricks and small superweapons aren't enough against military technological superiority, and I'd argue the Galactic Empire had crossed that point, let alone the Legacy Empire.





There is that possibility, but if the ritual can be interrupted, then that's it, the Sith Empire doesn't really have any other way to win.


It's ritual or defeat, they can't win a war.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but that's one generation difference.

This is, well, Harrower < Venator < Imperial < Imperial 2 < Pellaeon < Imperious / Dragon Ship (which are starting to come on line during the war). And there may possibly be steps between Harrower and Venator too.

Harrowers are bigger and stronger than Hammerheads, but based on basically the same tech. Pellaeons are bigger by a wider margin and have stronger, faster firing guns, better shields, faster hyperdrive, you name it.

And Dragon Ships carrying Annihilator fighters were slaughtering Pallaeons. In Legacy: War the Galactic Alliance fleet and the Fel fleet forced a confrontation on Coruscant as soon as they could because they knew they could not last against the power of the new Annihilators with their insane firepower.

Fighters in general is an area where clear, clear advancement is shown. During the course of the New Republic, X-wings go from being top-of-the-line and worth a couple times their number in TIEs, to in need of an upgrade to face newer fighters. The Sith Empire fighters are basically fodder to TIE Predators, Sith-Imperial Fighters, and of course Annihilators.
Actually Harrower-class dreadnaughts are far more advanced then Hammerhead-class dreadnaughts in all aspects.

"The mainstay of the Imperial navy and active symbol of the Empire's power, Harrower-class dreadnaughts are among the most powerful and deadly warships ever designed. The ship's wedge-shaped hull allows virtually all of its firepower to be concentrated directly forward, while also helping to minimize the ship's massive profile and deflect damage from head-on fire."

Standard armaments include Turbolaser cannons, Quad-laser turrets, ion cannons, proton torpedo tubes and concussion missile launchers. In addition, these dreadnaughts could be modified to carry superweapons with which they could solo whole fleets or even one-shot entire worlds. Basically, a Harrower-class dreadnaught packs superior firepower then lets say a Venator-class dreadnaught on standard armament front and superior firepower then lets say both Imperial I-class and Imperial-II class dreadnaughts or possibly any dreadnaught with superweapons.

I'd say that Harrower-class dreadnaughts are a threat to any other dreadnaught in the mythos.

Do not get fooled by technology progression in Star Wars, older weapons are not necessarily inferior or useless in this mythos. Just look at the evolution of droids, you will find SWTOR droids being more impressive on the whole in comparison to those during PT/OT periods.

Republic had to introduce Valor-class dreadnaughts to stand a chance against Imperial navy.

But the main point is that war is costly business, and it will be costly to both sides in this contest.

Originally posted by Q99
They only temporarily had the ability to produce endless before the Sun Razer was blown up, and it's a stationary, fragile target that's listed in the history books.
Well, I am not talking about lore related developments, I am assuming both forces at their best.

Originally posted by Q99
And their powerful cruisers.... are still a bit smaller than, and likely weaker than, the One Sith's Pellaeon ships. They can't stand against Annihilators or a large OS fleet.
See above

Originally posted by Q99
Sure... based on and improved. Palpatine's Empire had much passed the TOR Sith Empire in battleships.
See above

Based on, yes.

Exact schematics for improvements, not so sure. Their would be improvements in some respects but difference isn't significant.

Originally posted by Q99
And the One Sith has force tech unlike anything seen in the TOR Empire in their Annihilators.
Really? Harrower-class dreadnaught, when modified with superweapons can solo entire fleets and even one-shot worlds. I don't see what can be much better then this.

I am not claiming that Annihilator-class dreadnaughts won't be a threat, they are huge. However, even they can be one-shotted by a Harrower-class dreadnaught based superweapon.

Originally posted by Q99
Dread Master's power causes fear, Sith Troopers are cyborgs (and despite the word 'trooper' are high-end forces, stronger than rank and file sith). I don't think they're physically capable of feeling fear. They are designed for total obedience.
Force > anything.

Cyborgs are not immune to Force-manipulation.

"When the Sith Empire attempted to conquer the Republic, the Dread Masters used their powers to destroy entire Republic fleets."

I don't think it is possible to destroy entire fleets with just fear. Dread Masters packed extraordinary powers on individual basis, imagine their effectiveness and potency with combined might.

FYI: TOR era Sith Empire had plenty of cyborgs too.

Originally posted by Q99
The Dread Masters cannot be everywhere to begin with- even with their capabilities turning several fleet battles, they didn't cause the Republic fleet to collapse. If they are the only force capable of allowing Sith Empire forces victory (I.e. 6 battles happen throughout the galaxy. The DMs make Legacy forces panic and fail in one of them. Legacy Imperial forces slaughter in 5 others. Net advantage, One Sith), and the enemy additional has a segment of forces immune to them? Big trouble.
Well, the Republic is too damn enormous. It takes time to exterminate a civilization of such a magnitude.

And, of-course, in Star Wars, good guys always win. Doesn't matters how illogical and unbelievable.

Originally posted by Q99
There is a point where fancy tricks and small superweapons aren't enough against military technological superiority, and I'd argue the Galactic Empire had crossed that point, let alone the Legacy Empire.
I am sorry, you are not thinking clearly. See above.

Originally posted by Q99
There is that possibility, but if the ritual can be interrupted, then that's it, the Sith Empire doesn't really have any other way to win.


It's ritual or defeat, they can't win a war.
TOR era Sith Empire can pull off a victory, it has ample quality and muscle for this task.

----

Sources: SWTOR(E)

Standard armament comparable to a Venator? Highly unlikely! They're smaller than Venators by a good margin, and we have no indication of any tech superiority by that point. (And note, during the Empire era tech does improve even in ships of the same size, ISD 1 and 2, and by Legacy a similar improvement has happened. A GA Scythe class, which is about Harrower size, has firepower more akin to an ISD).

By the Anaxes War College System of later eras, Harrowers are not even classed as dreadnaughts, they're heavy cruisers and on the small side for heavy cruisers, not even Star Destroyers.

By the Galactic Empire, using the Anaxes War College System, Heavy Cruiser refers to 800-1000 meter ships, Star Destroyer 1000 to 2000, Battlecruiser 2,000 to 5,000, and Dreadnaught has been bumped up to 5,000. There's ship sizes that do not even exist in the TOR era in there.

The superweapon does grant superior firepower, but it's small in number, has a mere one manufacturing facility that's easily targeted, and still on a small, relatively fragile package.




It's 800 meters long. Pellaeons are like 1,500 or so, and more massive than ISDs. Dragon Ships are like 2,500 or so (making them Battlecruisers).



No, not useless, but newer ones are still better even if they improve by inches over a long period, and by Legacy we have an explicit increase in effectiveness of guns and a very serious increase in ship sizes.



The Sun Razer is easily removed from the picture, is my point, and many of it's 'superweapons' include special ships that aren't all that special by OS standards (like Malgus's flagship).



No, no, you misread.

Annihilator class fighters. Their Annihilator class fighters can destroy Star Destroyers in short order. Their force-guns punch through capship shields.

As in, a dozen Annihilator fighters can hyperdrive in- another OS advantage, all their fighters have hyperdrive and shields, TOR sith fighters have to be carried in- and kill the Harrowers in a system.

Without capital ships, just fighters.




They are immune to mental force manipulation, I'm pretty sure.

I mean, they're *also* strong force users, so that also provides protection as well, but if you are designed to be not capable of breaking and running, you won't.



Panicking people cannot operate their ships. It is described as a fear effect that cripples people with terror, this is specifically how it works. A corvette could shoot down a dreadnaught under it's effects due to the crew being useless.

And it did not prevent a Jedi strike force from confronting and capturing all of them in the first place, so it is not irresistable.





Did they have cyborgs who were also powerful force users? And were these cyborgs operating their fleets?

Cyborgs are normally used in small quantities, and normally are just people with limbs and such, not brain control.




It should have inferior quantity outside of Sith Lords too.

They have half the galaxy. The One Sith have 80% of a larger galaxy.


Here is the Size of One Sith Territory

Here is the size of known space as-of the New Sith Wars (and the mandalorian wars of the KotoR era. TOR should be somewhere between these two)

Known space has increased by about a third since the NSW, and about doubled from the KotoR era. And the TOR Empire only had *half* of the territory of their time.


The TOR Empire had a serious problem with overextending even with what they had, that was why they signed the truce.

If the TOR pushed and increased their territory by half, forcing them to spread their forces thinner and making them nuch more vulnerable, the One Sith would basically be able to shrug it due to their huge territory, and then turn around and devastate them in return.

Or to put it another way: The Sith stalled out against a foe with fewer, smaller, lower-tech ships and smaller territory.

Once the One Sith got it's Annihilators, it was steamrolling Legacy-era opposition.