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Always an interesting match.

The Sithari vs. Master of the new order.

Force, sabers, all out

Krayt got pwned by holocron Bane. Real Bane rips him to pieces.

I give it to Krayt. Sabers is fairly close, but he's got the force edge and is overall more experienced.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Krayt got pwned by holocron Bane. Real Bane rips him to pieces.

Pfft, no he didn't Three holocrons, including *one that held Darth Andeddu's actual spirit*, tried to make his growths overcome him, and he overcame them.

PoD Bane would make short work of Krayt imo. DoE Bane takes it pretty easily and RoT Bane wins in a massacre.

Originally posted by Q99
I give it to Krayt. Sabers is fairly close, but he's got the force edge and is overall more experienced.




Pfft, no he didn't Three holocrons, including *one that held Darth Andeddu's actual spirit*, tried to make his growths overcome him, and he overcame them.
I was kidding.

Bane>Sith pretenders.

Originally posted by Galan007
Bane>Sith pretenders.

People who call the one sith pretenders have a very strong tendency to end up dead

And heck, people who didn't consider the One Sith pretenders include Jacen and Luke. It's funny to me that people can write off Krayt when Luke Skywalker considered not-at-his-height Krayt to be quite formidable.



Darth Krayt has a lot more knowledge of the force than Bane, major abilities he lacks, and is a more experienced, very experience duelist. Especially Reborn Krayt.


Without his orbalisks, Bane's got the short end of the stick here. With, it's a pretty epic duel.

Originally posted by Q99
Darth Krayt has a lot more knowledge of the force than Bane, major abilities he lacks
You mean Dark Transfer and... that's really the only one I can think of.

Originally posted by Q99
People who call the one sith pretenders have a very strong tendency to end up dead

And heck, people who didn't consider the One Sith pretenders include Jacen and Luke. It's funny to me that people can write off Krayt when Luke Skywalker considered not-at-his-height Krayt to be quite formidable.



Darth Krayt has a lot more knowledge of the force than Bane, major abilities he lacks, and is a more experienced, very experience duelist. Especially Reborn Krayt.


Without his orbalisks, Bane's got the short end of the stick here. With, it's a pretty epic duel. Lot of words just to tell me I'm right.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You mean Dark Transfer and... that's really the only one I can think of.

Dark Transfer is a highly formidable technique, though--And Shatterpoint alone has it's uses. Also--Krayt has displayed far greater use of telepathic powers as well.

So that is two Force advantages Krayt already has. Admittedly though, Bane's FL is quite a bit better than Krayt's own, and their TK is rather evenly matched.

Both have also displayed extremely high levels of pain tolerance, and mental fortitude on a similar level, and both are powerful Force Drain practitioners--Though it likely won't come into play during this fight.

Physically, both are rather monstrous as well--Bane's strength is great enough to rip durasteel doors off their hinges, and smash skulls with punches, while Krayt's is great enough to punch holes in Abeloth, as well as pick up Cade by the throat with a single arm. Bane is fast enough to run and flight in wild blurs and fight faster than Zannah, who could move faster than thought, while Krayt is fast enough to speedblitz 4 Imperial Knight Masters, and fight faster than Cade Skywalker.

Krayt is likely a bit more skilled, having outdueled Cade Skywalker with only one of his twin lightsabers, and the sheer fact that his experience is far greater--As he had killed "thousands of opponents since the Clone Wars." Bane was also highly formidable though, having fought a Soresu master like Zannah as an equal or superior, as well as holding his own against a master of all 7 forms before his peak. (But then again, Krayt also held his own against Obi-Wan and Aurra Sing long before his own peak.)

Really, to be entirely honest they're rather evenly matched in most categories, you realize. So the fact that Krayt has abilities like Dark Transfer, Sith Sorcery, and high-level Telepathic capabilities is definitely something that could tip the scales to his favor.

If it's not already clear, though, my vote is with Krayt--But only barely.

Bane has greater feats with mental strength and fortitude than Krayt does, and would be able to shrug off Krayt's telepathic attacks.

I do agree that force drain wouldn't come into play here.

I would rate Bane the physically superior of the two, as his strength feats you cited were superior and while he was drugged. Krayt's speedblitzing is impressive, though Bane's implicit speed of around 30 strikes a second impresses me more. Bane's endurance is also very impressive, as he was noted to train with Kas'im for hours at a time, and was capable of forgoing the need for sleep.

As per skill, Bane has a very resourceful and effective fighting style, boasting an overwhelming and highly unpredictable offense as well as a highly capable defense. If Krayt somehow penetrates Bane's defense, Bane can also throw up a cocoon of lightning capable of blocking lightsaber blows.

Krayt's Dark Transfer is an edge for him, though Bane also has a few abilities of his own, such as the aforementioned lightning cocoon, as well as an ability called inertia, where he alters his body's momentum to make himself even more unpredictable and agile.

My vote is with Bane

Bane takes it easily. Far faster and stronger and better with a saber.

When did Bane strike 30 times a second?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When did Bane strike 30 times a second?

He dodged raindrops

Originally posted by Revanite2001
He dodged raindrops
That's not what I asked.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's not what I asked.

well im answering your ****ing question *******

He strikes at ten strikes a second in POD, and in ROT when in a similar situation he considers deflecting raindrops in a storm impossible, even when using telekinesis in his predicament. By DOE he is capable of deflecting raindrops in a storm for ten minutes.

Or consider that Kas'im fighting faster than ten strikes a second was noted as being akin to wielding six lightsabers while Bane in ROT against Zannah was noted as being akin to wielding twelve lightsabers, and in DOE he's "faster than she could've ever imagined."

This places DOE Bane's combat speed at roughly 30 strikes per second.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's not what I asked.

DoE.

No, Bane does not have greater feats of mental strength and fortitude than Krayt. Bane has withstood pain from drugs and losing an arm, as well as resisted Zannah's illusions. Krayt has withstood the Vong's embrace of pain, and much more easily resisted Wyyrlok's illusions.



Bane has never achieved anything close to this.



Lightning Cocoon is a trick that might save him once, not an insta-killing trump card like Dark Transfer.

Rain feat puts Bane's strikes per seconds in the quadruple digits bro.

1. Bane has an absolutely massive advantage in speed.
2. He was a lightsaber prodigy that learned at an absolutely ridiculous rate, chances are his natural talents more than make up for the deficit in experience.
3. He has far superior TK and lightning feats.
4. Find the idea that Krayt's knowledge eclipsed Bane's questionable.
5. Best measure of strength is the person's physical attributes and Bane is basically built like a roided up Alistair Overeem.
6. For Dark Transfer to work, Krayt would have to touch Bane; this is largely redundant however as a lightsaber alone would be just as deadly in most cases, and has the advantages of greater reach, and not leaving your arm vulnerable to getting cut off.
7. Bane's mental abilities eclipse Krayt's.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, Bane does not have greater feats of mental strength and fortitude than Krayt. Bane has withstood pain from drugs and losing an arm, as well as resisted Zannah's illusions. Krayt has withstood the Vong's embrace of pain, and much more easily resisted Wyyrlok's illusions.



Bane has never achieved anything close to this.



Lightning Cocoon is a trick that might save him once, not an insta-killing trump card like Dark Transfer.

Zannah is far, far, far more powerful than Wyyrlok. And Bane shrugged off Krayt's efforts to influence his mind with laughable ease, when it worked on every single other member of the BoD.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Rain feat puts Bane's strikes per seconds in the quadruple digits bro.

1. Bane has an absolutely massive advantage in speed.
2. He was a lightsaber prodigy that learned at an absolutely ridiculous rate, chances are his natural talents more than make up for the deficit in experience.
3. He has far superior TK and lightning feats.
4. Find the idea that Krayt's knowledge eclipsed Bane's questionable.
5. Best measure of strength is the person's physical attributes and Bane is basically built like a roided up Alistair Overeem.
6. For Dark Transfer to work, Krayt would have to touch Bane; this is largely redundant however as a lightsaber alone would be just as deadly in most cases, and has the advantages of greater reach, and not leaving your arm vulnerable to getting cut off.
7. Bane's mental abilities eclipse Krayt's.

Agreed bane wins easily. his speed feats are greater than sids tbh.

Krayt's blitzing of four knights seems like something that might've been labor intensive. But then again if he fought faster than Cade that might not be the case, Bane rips durasteel doors off but Krayt punches holes through Abeloth? Krayt might be slightly stronger.

Skill goes to Krayt for knowing tons of Sith lore, plus formal Jedi training, plus getting stronger after death and killing tons of opponents by his own admission. I think he takes this with mid-high difficulty.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Rain feat puts Bane's strikes per seconds in the quadruple digits bro.


Given that he wasn't striking at each raindrop individually, no it doesn't. Bane was moving his saber in a single set of circular sequences, blocking the raindrops.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Given that he wasn't striking at each raindrop individually, no it doesn't. Bane was moving his saber in a single set of circular sequences, blocking the raindrops.

Didn't say he was striking each one individually; to rotate it that quickly alone would be equiv. to that many s.p.s..

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He strikes at ten strikes a second in POD
Provide a quote.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Didn't say he was striking each one individually; to rotate it that quickly alone would be equiv. to that many s.p.s..


Not in the context of a duel, unless he's just going to move his blade in a single set of rotating sequences.

Obi Wan level jedi can block several blasters simultaneously on the fly. Are we to assume their striking speed is eguivalent to several blasters at once, which, by the way, travel faster than raindrops?

I know you're going to say that it's not the speed in which the raindrops travel that makes the feat so impressive, but the constant of the downpour. But, wasn't Bane already moving his blade before the full extent of the rainstorm? If so, wouldn't that make it a little less impressive in terms of reaction speed? I mean, it's not like he ran out in the middle of a full downpour and reacted to each raindrop at once. He already had his blade in motion, and all he had to do was keep the motion going as the rainstorm reached it's full extent.

Not saying Bane is not incredibly fast, but that's not the speed feat I would keep harping on when it comes to a duel, especially among other fast duelists.

The value I take from Bane's rainstorm feat is that it demonstrates his drastic increase in speed from POD when you consider that at the beginning ROT he considers such a feat impossible.

It is impressive. Bane would have to literally rotate his blade fast enough to form a shield in order to block the downpour, but it's not the most impressive speed feat as some suggest. Vader has formed a shield out of his blade in one issue of the DT comics, yet he wasn't outpacing Maul's duplicate when they dueled.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader has formed a shield out of his blade in one issue of the DT comics Do you recall the issue # off hand?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
"Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats." -POD


Nexus feat.

Originally posted by Galan007
Do you recall the issue # off hand?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334409-new+picture+%283%29.jpg

Originally posted by NewGuy01
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334409-new+picture+%283%29.jpg


Yeah, that's it. Do you know the issue #, NewGuy?

Or did you figure it out, Galan? If not, I can get it for you by tomorrow.

Also, there's another impressive speed feat from Vader in the series involving waves of blaster bolts, IIRC.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3334417-new+picture+%2810%29.jpg

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is impressive. Bane would have to literally rotate his blade fast enough to form a shield in order to block the downpour, but it's not the most impressive speed feat as some suggest. Vader has formed a shield out of his blade in one issue of the DT comics, yet he wasn't outpacing Maul's duplicate when they dueled.

Yes it is. Refer to Zampablo's calculations. It is one thing to create a simple shield, but to have it perform that function against the downpour of rain is another thing entirely. And it doesn't matter that he was simply rotating the saber, the feat still contains an application of speed that would translate into swinging speed. And it honestly puts his s.p.s. in the quadruple digits.

I'd be interested to see what your take on this was if it had been Sidious who performed the feat brah.

It's not really more impressive than deflecting a few blaster bolts, which travel vastly faster than rain.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
in ROT when in a similar situation he considers deflecting raindrops in a storm impossible,

Really? I've always felt that DoE Bane was the fastest version, but this would confirm it.

Also on the subject of strength, Bane ripped Farfallas lightsaber out of his hand with one strike.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Rain feat puts Bane's strikes per seconds in the quadruple digits bro.

The ****? Hell no.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? I've always felt that DoE Bane was the fastest version, but this would confirm it.
As does him being faster than Zannah could've ever imagined in their final fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also on the subject of strength, Bane ripped Farfallas lightsaber out of his hand with one strike.
And he also ripped a durasteel door off of its hinges while drugged

Well yeah, but certain people were convinced RoT Bane was the fastest. As I recall some moron made the argument that the rainstorm feat was invalid because it was faster than anything Bane had done in RoT and RoT was Bane at his fastest so it was inconsistent. This person sure was a dumbass.

I know, you said. I was adding that feat to your own list of Banes strength feats.

lol

When Bane noted that it would be ''impossible'' to deflect rain, I'm pretty sure it was before Bane had acquired his orbalisks.

Yeah

Dark transfer is not his only advantage.

Krayt additionally has shatterpoint, and Tutaminis, able to absorb force lightning bare handed, something only a very few force users have been observed doing (Revan, Yoda, Karness Muur, Krayt, and Wyyrlok). Tutaminis means lightning defenses and offenses do not mean much to him, he does not even need a saber to defend in the way most do.




Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Zannah is far, far, far more powerful than Wyyrlok.

Not sure about that- Wyyrlok beat one of the most famed Sith sorcerers in a sorcery contest, and was getting at the level where he though he could be master of the One Sith.

He's capable of killing purely with illusion.




You mean Kaan's?




Originally posted by carthage
Krayt's blitzing of four knights seems like something that might've been labor intensive. But then again if he fought faster than Cade that might not be the case, Bane rips durasteel doors off but Krayt punches holes through Abeloth? Krayt might be slightly stronger.

Skill goes to Krayt for knowing tons of Sith lore, plus formal Jedi training, plus getting stronger after death and killing tons of opponents by his own admission. I think he takes this with mid-high difficulty.


Indeed.


Also on speed, Obi-wan has some impressive speed feats, yet youngHett was quite capable of keeping up with him.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Yes it is. Refer to Zampablo's calculations.


I don't need his calculations to know that forming a shield over his head is the only way the feat makes any sense, really.


Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It is one thing to create a simple shield, but to have it perform that function against the downpour of rain is another thing entirely.


Tell me how a downpour of rain would make forming a shield any more impressive.


Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I'd be interested to see what your take on this was if it had been Sidious who performed the feat brah.


I would think it was a damn good speed feat as far as just raw movement is concerned, and it would suggest that he has a great defense provided that he can react to and form the shield before his opponent can make an attack, and provided he can keep up that shield/defense, and in Bane's case the fact that he did so for 10+ minutes makes the feat more impressive than just merely forming the shield, IMO.

Take Vader's feat of deflecting those blaster bolts in NewGuy's post, for example, and mentally replace those bolts with gouts of rain. It would be hard for any drops of rain to get through that defense provided Vader can keep up that raw display of saber movement. In terms of reaction speed (thought processing speed), though, the ability to instantly react to those blaster bolts would require a faster reaction than Bane reacting to a rain storm, considering that bolts travel far faster than rain. However, it would require greater stamina to deflect a rainstorm due to the constant of the downpour. That said, both feats do not translate to striking speed, they are just displays of reaction speed and/or demonstrations of 'raw-movement-speed' and stamina, none of which suggests the ability to utilize that speed skillfully in saber duel. That's why I think you're better off using Bane's dueling feats, unless the rain feat alone suggests Bane is far faster than his opponent, and in this case, I don't think it does.

Lucky for me Palpatine has displayed similar (and superior) speed in and out of combat situations. Don't think that I don't think you know this (lol).

Krayt's feat of blitzing the Knights is vastly overrated. Bane, as a neophyte (felt like writing Nephthys there) all the way back in Path of Destruction, ran faster than Sith apprentices could even see, which is exactly what Krayt did.

Feat wise, Bane's raw power supersedes Krayt's, his physical feats are similar, whereas his skill is on a somewhat similar level to Krayt's.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or did you figure it out, Galan? If not, I can get it for you by tomorrow. Got it. Guess I was expecting something a little different. Thanks, though.

Originally posted by Q99
Not sure about that- Wyyrlok beat one of the most famed Sith sorcerers in a sorcery contest, and was getting at the level where he though he could be master of the One Sith.

Sith spirits are known for being far weaker than the living Sith Lord and it was Andeddu's spirit that he defeated.



Yep.

Sids 66, there's no such thing as a universal "shield" that your lightsaber can form. It resembles a shield by making such quick rotations, but the quicker the rotations, the more effective the shield is.

What's so impressive about the rain feat is the constant nature of the rain, and the thoroughness of area it covers. Bane has to be able to rotate his saber faster than it takes a single drop of rain to fall about a few cms.

And because of the tremendous wind, the rain would be coming in from more directions than just above.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Sith spirits are known for being far weaker than the living Sith Lord and it was Andeddu's spirit that he defeated.


Kun as a spirit was more powerful then as a person.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
What's so impressive about the rain feat is the constant nature of the rain, and the thoroughness of area it covers. Bane has to be able to rotate his saber faster than it takes a single drop of rain to fall about a few cms.


I acknowledged this, reread my post. Still don't see how it translates to skillful/precise strikes in the midst of a saber duel.

Likewise with deflecting blaster bolts. In order to block several blaster bolts that are spread out and coming in all at once would require that one must move his saber faster than it takes a single bolt (which, as I said, travels at a far greater speed than a drop of rain, not to mention it also makes a more forceful impact) to travel a few cms, no?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I acknowledged this, reread my post. Still don't see how it translates to skillful/precise strikes in the midst of a saber duel.

Likewise with deflecting blaster bolts. In order to block several blaster bolts that are spread out and coming in all at once would require that one must move his saber faster than it takes a single bolt (which, as I said, travels at a far greater speed than a drop of rain, not to mention it also makes a more forceful impact) to travel a few cms, no?

Blaster bolts are defended via precog, not speed.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Blaster bolts are defended via precog, not speed.
You still need to move your lightsaber fast enough to deflect each of them.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Blaster bolts are defended via precog, not speed.

How is rain any different?

Because the rain truly was constant and the idea that such a scenario has been replicated with blaster bolts that Force Users have defended against is wishful thinking. It might look like they're all being fired at the exact same time in a comic or whatever but chances are each one is being fired at a different time, and all the FU has to do is move fast enough to account for that difference.

When you can prove a scenario with blaster bolts coming continuously at you from every angle at the same time, get back to me brah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How is rain any different?

Precog is referred to as 'danger sense' for a reason. I don't think it would chirp about frickin rain.

Btw, something else some may not realize- Krayt at the beginning of Legacy was specifically weaker than his height with his armor, Wyyrlok said Krayt would not have died had he been as strong as he was in the past.

Krayt went, "Strong with armor (Abeloth fight, Wyyrlok's youth, etc.), weakened with armor due to continual growths (early Legacy), Reborn and stronger than ever (War)."



Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Sith spirits are known for being far weaker than the living Sith Lord and it was Andeddu's spirit that he defeated.

Andeddu was restored to life, in a living physical body. Just as ClonePalpatine and Vitiate were not in their originals.

Furthermore, he had his scepter as well, containing a crystal of the type seen in force enhancers (and which shattered when he lost the mental contest).

It was an armed, living Andeddu in that fight.







Pfft, Masters >>> Apprentices. Especially when the apprentices were from an era known to be weak in training, and even non-senior IKs have been seen to fight well against non-apprentice sith, even taking on some Sith masters (Imperial Knights at the padawan level are not considered Imperial Knights yet, and nor do IKs promote people based on wisdom or diplomacy or healing like Jedi sometimes do. One has to be at least the level of a combat-trained full Jedi Knight to get the title. Jao Assim, a full IK but not a senior one, is able to go toe-to-toe with Darth Luft, a Sith Master in charge of building a secret fleet, who chumped multiple IK Initiates without effort).

And these were ones coming at him from all sides, including behind.

If you want running over weaklings, Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao have done that (with full sith warriors, not apprentices), and Cade is stronger than them, but much weaker than Krayt.

There were people in the room other than apprentices when Bane did that. Kas'im, for instance.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There were people in the room other than apprentices when Bane did that. Kas'im, for instance.

We know Kas'im can handle his speed, he did handle his speed.


Which is something of an argument against Bane being this blitz-almost-all combatant- a number of foes from the Battle of Ruusian era were able to contest him in saber (losing due to skill or force or similar, not pure speed), and that is by no means the strongest era around.

Originally posted by Q99
Pfft, Masters >>> Apprentices. Especially when the apprentices were from an era known to be weak in training, and even non-senior IKs have been seen to fight well against non-apprentice sith, even taking on some Sith masters (Imperial Knights at the padawan level are not considered Imperial Knights yet, and nor do IKs promote people based on wisdom or diplomacy or healing like Jedi sometimes do. One has to be at least the level of a combat-trained full Jedi Knight to get the title. Jao Assim, a full IK but not a senior one, is able to go toe-to-toe with Darth Luft, a Sith Master in charge of building a secret fleet, who chumped multiple IK Initiates without effort).

And these were ones coming at him from all sides, including behind.

If you want running over weaklings, Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao have done that (with full sith warriors, not apprentices), and Cade is stronger than them, but much weaker than Krayt.
A lot of words, but I see no proof that featless Imperial Knights should be more than very marginally more adept than apprentices.

Via a combo of precog/skill. But he couldn't visually process his speed, which is extremely impressive.

Originally posted by Q99
We know Kas'im can handle his speed, he did handle his speed.


Which is something of an argument against Bane being this blitz-almost-all combatant- a number of foes from the Battle of Ruusian era were able to contest him in saber (losing due to skill or force or similar, not pure speed), and that is by no means the strongest era around.

It is arguably the most impressive era actually bro. And he would have blitzed both Farfalla and Raskta if they hadn't been under the effects of BM. Kas'im was extremely powerful and skilled, and that was all the way back in PoD. Meanwhile Zannah is one of the rare few who is even more powerful than Bane.

Krayt didn't even blitz those IKs and they don't hold a candle to Farfalla or Raskta or even Sarro who were among the most powerful Jedi of that era.

Originally posted by Q99
We know Kas'im can handle his speed, he did handle his speed.


Which is something of an argument against Bane being this blitz-almost-all combatant- a number of foes from the Battle of Ruusian era were able to contest him in saber (losing due to skill or force or similar, not pure speed), and that is by no means the strongest era around.

I believe even Bane couldn't see Kas'im's attacks clearly, and Bane was beating Kas'im at that point. I'd imagine it was more severe the other way around. As Astor said, they relied upon precog/skill.

I'd favor Bane here.

Great fight though.

I'd go with Bane too if he was as skilled, was faster, and punched holes through Abeloth.

It'd be a good fight though.

Krayt can win as well, IMO.

Bane is faster then Krayt.

^^^

Possible. Yes, Bane is undoubtedly extremely fast.

Not really, no. Krayt's blitzing of knights is more impressive, and at the beginning of DOE he even said he was marginally slower due to the wearing of the Orbalisk armor. This is admitted. Krayt is faster.

Originally posted by carthage
Not really, no. Krayt's blitzing of knights is more impressive, and at the beginning of DOE he even said he was marginally slower due to the wearing of the Orbalisk armor. This is admitted. Krayt is faster.
And how good were those Knights?

Bane can move at a bullet's speed: 857m/s or 1917mph.

Originally posted by carthage
Not really, no. Krayt's blitzing of knights is more impressive, and at the beginning of DOE he even said he was marginally slower due to the wearing of the Orbalisk armor. This is admitted. Krayt is faster.
Bane says he's marginally slower, but his speed in DOE is more impressive than the other two novels, which leads me to believe his speed peak was a couple of years before DOE.

DOE was actually his highest point of speed shown in the trilogy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how good were those Knights?

One was the Emperor's cousin (i.e. a descendant of Jaina Solo) and leader of the bodyguard, the other three were hand-picked for the task.

Their plan, before facing Krayt, was to fight their way out of the room-full-of-sith (and if possible, kill Krayt), and Roan Fel, no chump or fool, judged they had a chance of this.


Additionally, we have seen the level at which a IK is considered a full Knight, and one has to be solid before someone's promoted past initial- almost every IK we see fights at Jedi/Sith Master level.






True enough, which still doesn't speak to blitzing here.




Not even Bane felt so!



While he'd have won more solidly, I seriously doubt that.



He killed several of them without looking as soon as they got in arm's reach.

I'm not sure what else you'd call it.

Originally posted by Q99
True enough, which still doesn't speak to blitzing here.

Agreed. Bane wouldn't blitz Krayt. He may be faster, but not very much imo.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane says he's marginally slower, but his speed in DOE is more impressive than the other two novels, which leads me to believe his speed peak was a couple of years before DOE.

DOE was actually his highest point of speed shown in the trilogy.
Actually, Bane was at his fastest when he had the orbalisk armor.

Originally posted by Q99
One was the Emperor's cousin (i.e. a descendant of Jaina Solo)

You're reaching here and I think you know it. Roan simply refers to him as "cousin" but you really can't prove that it was a genuine blood relative from that alone, as it might just be a way that the IK speak to each other, much like how two comrades might refer to themselves as "brothers", but not actually be actual brothers.

Plus if he really were a descendant of Anakin I'd imagine they'd show him a little more respect than having him go out like a chump. Plus he may have just been a cousin but not one that was linked to the Skywalker line.



You don't have to blitz someone to have an overwhelming speed advantage over someone. I wouldn't argue that Bane would blitz Krayt, but I would argue that he would be able to overwhelm him with his speed and be all over him.




Even Bane? Bane was their harshest critic. But Bane's main criticism wasn't about their combat prowess but rather their methodology, i.e. thinking that the Sith could destroy the Jedi via sheer warfare, and not through deception and trickery etc.

The fact is they were so good at combat prowess because of their war-centric approach, and that is what Bane was critical of for the most part.



lol, no I mean it's actually stated in the novel.



Blitzing would be one shotting them before they can react, Krayt simply overwhelmed them with speed, as several exchanges were made. Impressive but I wouldn't put those IK on the level of someone like Sirak, who Bane actually blitzed as far back as midway through PoD.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Agreed. Bane wouldn't blitz Krayt. He may be faster, but not very much imo.

Why would you argue not very much? Krayt really doesn't have any real quantifiable speed feats, whereas Bane has the best one ever, and numerous other great ones. And he's demonstrated dazzling speed over people as powerful as Zannah.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Actually, Bane was at his fastest when he had the orbalisk armor.
Zannah may disagree.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Zannah may disagree.
Zannah doesn't disagree.

Where did someone come up with the idea of Bane blitzing Krayt, lol. He's slower, less skilled, and not as refined as a duelist as Krayt. He was beaten by a person that tripped over a grave for god sake. He will be destroyed mark my words.

He also shared the same last name, Morghan Fel. If two people share a last name and call each other relatives- which, btw, no other IK is called such- odds of them not being relatives is pretty low.



If his last name is Fel, that means he's descended from the line that holds the throne. An offshoot, yes, and likely not as strong as the main line, but that strongly implies a direct descent.

And he held an important position, and was seen as close to Roan in flashback. Exactly where you'd expect a cousin to be.



No, there were not several exchanges made. Three of them died in the first blows of the fight, and Morghan lasted slightly longer, being disarmed then killed.

Here is the fight in it's entirety. They rush him from behind while he focuses on Morghan. He scythes through them, then takes Morghan.




Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Why would you argue not very much? Krayt really doesn't have any real quantifiable speed feats,


Obi-wan does, and A'Sharad was able to press him in combat.


And the IK thing is still really impressive...

I have since learned of this, however there's still the possibility he's not descended from Jaina Solo and Jagged Fel but another Fel and is simply a distant cousin, and it's also possible that the Fels weren't descended from Skywalkers at all. As you yourself said in the other thread, the Fels never do anything that impressive to stand out, and even the Skywalker bloodline can be significantly watered down.



My mistake, but either way it's not exactly clear on what happened, and far too vague to refer to it as a speed feat specifically. He may have overpowered them through sheer strength, or skill, or anything. A far cry from Bane's quantifiable speed feats.




Obi-Wan does not have feats even slightly comparable to Bane, and in AotC was not even able to overwhelm Jango Fett with his speed in a melee exchange.

It comes across as impressive, and I never said that Krayt sucks, but you can't argue that it's a feat of speed, and certainly not one on the level of Bane, and Bane has outperformed such a display numerous times.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Zannah doesn't disagree.

Yes, she does.

"He was faster than she could ever have imagined."

Zannah fought a berserk RoT Bane (and saw him fight on Tython), so she'd obviously know how fast that version of him was. For him to be faster than she could imagine means he's faster in their duel than he was back then.

^ While he was amped, sir.

Krayt blitzed the knights based off of his own speed, and not energy imparted by the orbalisks. Though I personally don't think Krayt would blitz Bane, he is definitely slower than Krayt.

When was he amped?

If you mean RoT then its just even more impressive that Bane was even faster than that without the orbalisk amp.

He was amped because the orbalisks were feeding off of his rage, ergo he had a boost to move faster hence the feat of Zannah seeing Multiple blades at once.

He never duplicated similar feats without it IIRC during DOE, apart from the Rain feat which while impressive isn't of equal standing

In order to be a Fel unrelated to Jagged (and thus Jaina), we're talking 4 generations removed. Possibly 5, as Morghan's noticeably younger than Roan.

Who calls people 'cousin' at that far out?




Quite unlikely. Jaina and Jagged are actually married, after all.



Not *super* impressive in the sense the Skywalkers are, but they're still very powerful force users. Roan's above Treis Sinde, who's a match for one of Krayt's top war leaders and who has some solid force feats (barrier'ing explosions and that sort of thing).

Or to put it another way, they aren't Skywalker level, but Roan is very solidly "Powerful Jedi" level.

If he was in the Clone Wars era, he'd be on the council and a formidable member thereon, just not a Skywalker-type member.

Originally posted by carthage
He was amped because the orbalisks were feeding off of his rage, ergo he had a boost to move faster hence the feat of Zannah seeing Multiple blades at once.

He never duplicated similar feats without it IIRC during DOE, apart from the Rain feat which while impressive isn't of equal standing

True.

I'd say its on equal standing. And Zannah says he's faster without the orbalisks, so I'm gonna believe her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, she does.

"He was faster than she could ever have imagined."

Zannah fought a berserk RoT Bane (and saw him fight on Tython), so she'd obviously know how fast that version of him was. For him to be faster than she could imagine means he's faster in their duel than he was back then.
Zannah was referring to Bane in their sparring sessions because he always had ''held back'', which is why he was faster than she ever imagined.

By all means believe her Neph, even though by his own words he was slower and he never went full power in training sessions. Hehe.

Do you have a quote for that statement, I kinda remember her saying that put a quote and it being put into context would help.

Originally posted by Q99
In order to be a Fel unrelated to Jagged (and thus Jaina), we're talking 4 generations removed. Possibly 5, as Morghan's noticeably younger than Roan.

Who calls people 'cousin' at that far out?

I'd refer to someone as a cousin no matter how far out they are, provided that they are my cousin.




Not as unlikely as you'd like to think.



That's Roan Fel, we're talking about Mhogran.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Zannah was referring to Bane in their sparring sessions because he always had ''held back'', which is why he was faster than she ever imagined.

Two paragraphs later she herself points out that she'd fought him while he had the orbalisks, so obviously she actually remembers that and doesn't have freaking brain damage.

The quote, Intrepid and Carthage, is:

"During her years under Bane, they had sparred hundreds of times. During these sessions she had always known he was keeping something in reserve for the day they would inevitably fight for real. Only now did she realize just how much he had been holding back.

He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect."

'Could ever have imagined'. That seems pretty conclusive in including their previous duel.

No, but Intrepid's point is that because Bane was holding back at a time in which he had the orbalisks and not during their final duel, Zannah had never seen him at full speed, which means orbalisk!Bane still may be faster than DOE!Bane.

Bane wasn't holding back in RoT though. He was berserk and trying to kill her. He had held back in training, probably referring to the 10 years between RoT and DoE.

Does this mean that he might have been holding back in all of his fights against others that Zannah was witness to, such as the BMd Jedi strike team?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane wasn't holding back in RoT though. He was berserk and trying to kill her. He had held back in training, probably referring to the 10 years between RoT and DoE.

Possibly. Was it when he was in roid-rage mode in ROT?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane wasn't holding back in RoT though. He was berserk and trying to kill her. He had held back in training, probably referring to the 10 years between RoT and DoE.

Yeah but for her to only now realize, he would have had to have been holding back in any fight that she witnessed him in.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Possibly. Was it when he was in roid-rage mode in ROT?

Yeah:

"You betrayed me!" he roared and leapt at her.

Zannah had watched the battle with interest, taking careful note of Bane's tactics and tendencies and storing them away for later. Her Master easily dispatched Hetton and his minions, as she had expected ... though there had been a brief instant near the start of the battle when Bane had appeared vulnerable. Apparently the orbalisks were not able to fully protect him against the electrical current of the force pikes-another fact she made a point of filing away for later.

When it was over her Master turned to face her. She waited for him to demand an explanation, but instead he let loose with a cry and flew at her. Zannah barely had time to ignite her twin blades to meet his completely unexpected attack.

She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.

"I did not betray you, Master!" she shouted, trying to make Bane see reason before he cleaved her in two. "I lured Hetton here so you could kill him!"

She ducked under a horizontal cut from his lightsaber, only to catch a heavy boot in her ribs. She rolled with the kick, narrowly avoiding the return cut of his blade. She parried a sharp descending blow, gathered her feet under her, and launched herself backward, flipping ten meters clear.

"Listen to me, Master!" she shouted now that she had put some distance between them. "If I wanted to betray you, why didn't I help them during the-oooffff!"

Bane hit her with a powerful Force throw, sending her hurtling backward. Only the barrier she had instinctively thrown up at the last second to shield herself saved her bones from being shattered by the concussive force of the impact.

She scrambled to her feet and twirled her lightsaber before her, creating what she hoped would be an impenetrable wall of defense. Instead of trying to pierce her guard, Bane leapt high in the air and came down almost right on top of her. She deftly parried his blade, redirecting it to the side as she spun away to keep his body from slamming into her. But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.

For a second she saw nothing but stars. Her vision cleared to reveal the image of Darth Bane looming above her, his blade raised for the coup de grace.

"I only did this for you, Master!" she shouted up at him, ignoring the throbbing pain in her jaw. "I only wanted to bring you the key to creating a Holocron!"

Bane hesitated, her words finally piercing the bestial madness that had enveloped him. He stared down at her on the ground, his head tilting to the side as his bloodlust slowly faded.

"You did this for me?" he asked suspiciously."

Bane acknowledges that he lost control later, which is what makes him seriously consider getting rid of the orbalisks.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Yeah but for her to only now realize, he would have had to have been holding back in any fight that she witnessed him in.

Unless he was faster than he was in the fights she witnessed.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Zannah never imagined him to be so fast without his orbalisk armor... because he always held back without it.

Thats not what she thinks though. It says that he was faster than she could EVER have imagined.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats not what she thinks though. It says that he was faster than she could EVER have imagined.
This doesn't refute my point, at all. She credits him with his unbelievable speed because he always held back, which he did not when he attacked her with his orbalisk armor. Ergo, she's not comparing his speed in their final duel to his speed when he actually attempted to kill her, but to his speed when he was not.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I'd refer to someone as a cousin no matter how far out they are, provided that they are my cousin.


But this is a formal royal family in an Empire that bears their name. Royal rules tend to be far more strict.





Who was strong enough to be promoted to head of Roan's bodyguard, and shared personal confidence with him. Also strong enough that 'fight his way out of a room full of sith' seemed to be something Roan Fel thought was within the realm of possibilities for him and the other three. While the risk of death was high, protecting the decoy was not expected to be a suicide mission for them even in such circumstances.


He was also able to sense a hiding Calixte- who's skilled at hiding herself in the force and has gotten the drop on lesser force users- and used TK on her.

Which might apply the other way around. But as it was Roan who referred to the other as cousin, and kings are priviliged enough to follow whatever rules that govern social conduct they want, there's not a problem.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This doesn't refute my point, at all. She credits him with his unbelievable speed because he always held back, which he did not when he attacked her with his orbalisk armor. Ergo, she's not comparing his speed in their final duel to his speed when he actually attempted to kill her, but to his speed when he was not.

No, shes comparing him to all the time shes known him because she says he's faster than she could EVER have imagined. She doesn't directly link his speed to the training either. So she isn't just talking about it in regards to that. Her noting that he had always held back and her noting that he's faster than she could ever have imagined are in completely different paragraphs. Sure it follows on from that, but its separate and its wording ascribes context other than just their training sessions.

Why are you so against this anyway? Just accept it man.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, shes comparing him to all the time shes known him because she says he's faster than she could EVER have imagined. She doesn't directly link his speed to the training either. So she isn't just talking about it in regards to that. Her noting that he had always held back and her noting that he's faster than she could ever have imagined are in completely different paragraphs. Sure it follows on from that, but its separate and its wording ascribes context other than just their training sessions.
<facepalm>

Wrong.



She outright attributes his speed to their sparring sessions in which he never fought as fast as he did, which is why he fought faster than she ever imagined.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why are you so against this anyway? Just accept it man.
<annoyed face>



A few other hints support this, such as his strength declining.



And finally, we've got Bane saying that he's weaker than than earlier in life.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
<facepalm>

Wrong.



She outright attributes his speed to their sparring sessions in which he never fought as fast as he did, which is why he fought faster than she ever imagined.

No, she doesn't. And I don't see how that contradicts my point. Why can it not be that Bane became faster than he was in RoT and concealed it in training sessions? That satisfies both interpretations.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
<annoyed face>

Lmao, I'd forgotten that it only says he was 'the merest fraction slower'. Jesus Drew, try not to overstate it or anything. haermm

As I've said numerous times, its probable that Bane became faster than he was in RoT and then got "the merest fraction slower' by DoE.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
A few other hints support this, such as his strength declining.

By "a tiny sliver."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And finally, we've got Bane saying that he's weaker than than earlier in life.

No, he only says that Zannah was waiting for his power to diminish. Plus again that doesn't deny the possibility of Bane becoming stronger between books and then declining.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why can it not be that Bane became faster than he was in RoT and concealed it in training sessions? That satisfies both interpretations.
Because Bane himself mused he was slower?

Slower than when? RoT? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Slower than when?
Than when he had the orbalisk armor.

Thats not what it says.

"it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been."

Thats all. That could mean a frickin' week ago for all we know, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats not what it says.

"it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been."

Thats all. That could mean a frickin' week ago for all we know, lol.
Did you even read the book? The entire passage is about how his body had begun to decline in the ten years since he lost the orbalisk armor.

No, its about how he was declining, period. It doesn't say what you want it to. I don't see anything about him having declined specifically since RoT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, its about how he was declining, period. It doesn't say what you want it to. I don't see anything about him having declined specifically since RoT.
Because you don't want to. It's very clear for most not worshipping Bane.

Nephthys is right, it does not say how much decline had occurred or from which point.


And I'm no Bane worshipper, I'm on the other side of this fight.

I'm with Intrepid, it doesn't make much sense for an older, un-amped, admittedly degrading Bane to be faster than a younger, significantly amped, In the range of a decade.

Also notice how much better Zannah holds up against Bane's speed in their second fight--An increase in Skill alone would not change the fact that she couldn't even see him.

Don't ignore this:

"The aging process was subtle, but inescapable. Bane accepted this; what he lost in strength and speed he could easily compensate for with wisdom, knowledge, and experience."

Bane had degraded, but its not as if he hadn't improved in experience and knowledge as well. An increase in Force Mastery could easily off-set slight physical weakness.

Zannah improved in more than just skill. Its not like she couldn't get much faster than she was in RoT.