The Battlezone! Round 1 Match 2: Darth Talon vs Asajj Ventress (S5)

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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Darth Talon

Darth Talon was a female twi'lek sith lord who served as one of Darth Krayt's hands during his reign as Emperor. She began her sith training on Korriban, where eventually she was tasked by Darth Krayt to kill her master, Darth Ruyn. She did so gladly, showing ultimate loyalty to Krayt, becoming one of his most trusted assassins.

Throughout the legacy era she is tasked with missions for Darth Krayt, including hunting down the infamous Cade Skywalker, even training him in the ways of the dark side, although ultimately she failed in this endeavor and was impaled by Cade. She survived through being given bacta, and fought against Darth Wyyrlok's new sith regime. When Krayt was reborn and slew Wyyrlok, she took her place again at Krayt's side. When Krayt was ultimately slain by Cade, she and the other sith went into hiding, trying to make sure that the one sith wouldn't die with its founder.

Asajj Ventress

Asajj Ventress was a female Dathomirian sith assassin and servant of Count Dooku. Born as a Nightsister, Ventress was sold as a slave to Rattatak, and trained in the ways of the jedi. However, after her master, Ny Narec was killed, she began to follow the path of the dark side, slaying the Rattataki warlords, inserting herself as leader of the planet. Dooku took notice of her, and took her in as his own "apprentice."

She fought various battles during the clone wars, an instrumental tool for Count Dooku. She battled Skywalker and Kenobi many times, although she was never able to kill either one. Eventually she was betrayed by Count Dooku, having revealed that he never had any plans of making Ventress a true sith. She then went back to Dathomir and met Mother Talzin, where she fought against General Grevious and the Separatists. Eventually, she was taken as far away from Dooku, the jedi, and the war as possible.

Terrain

The terrain is an uneven, snowy, and mountainous.

Who wins?

carthage
Gotta go with Asajj with mid difficulty.

Ironically, Asajj fought PT jedi in exact same circumstances and did rather well. Her TK is used in environmental situations just like this.

Good fight though

Q99
Talon has some nice force feats. She's disguised her appearance as someone else, hides her presence in the force with great skill, and she's got some very impressive TK, ripping up large amounts of solid stone easily. She could rip up the very mountain beneath Asajj's feat. Force goes to her.

Asajj, she is more experienced, but Talon is also quite good at playing evasive and avoiding skilled foes, and has a couple nice wins under her belt (killed Marasiah Fel's master, beat Cade during sithtraining).

So, force, talon, sabers, Asajj, I'll go Talon in a good fight.

carthage
Gonna type a rebuttal later. Asajj is too skilled and has too much raw talent imo.

Q99
Originally posted by carthage
Gonna type a rebuttal later. Asajj is too skilled and has too much raw talent imo.

Talon's also very skilled, and has more complete training. Asajj, while possessing a lot of talent, is more raw, especially in her force abilities and force defense, while Darth Talon benefits from having completed sith training.


Both are very awesome and have their own advantages and disadvantages against each other.

carthage
She's skilled but her duels don't really reflect it. She's consistently beaten by Cade, and doesn't really have any real comparison with Ventress's raw skill (beating Fisto pre prime, and holding her own against Plo Koon). Ventress may not be completely trained but for the level of training she has, and for being so young she's demonstrated the's superior to most if not all the Jedi barring Anakin and the usual mentions. Nothing Talon has accomplished compares to this.



Ironically, Ventress has destroyed a ceiling, uprooted massive trees, and even ragdolled Kenobi, as well as caused avalanches. She's got more force abilities at her disposal, and has bested many Jedi with them including Kenobi.

I just don't see her beating Ventress.

Tzeentch
Assaj has better feats, and has defeated people with better feats than Talon has.

Intrepid37
Ventress wins just about every time. Her skill feats, such as fighting evenly with characters such as Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Obi-Wan and Anakin vastly outstrips Talon's own.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So are you all mostly in agreement that asajj wins?

Nephthys
I do not have the foggiest about this one. Ventress certainly has more feats, but I'm not sure they're actually above Talons ones. Giving Cade a good fight seems to be just as good as giving any of the characters Intrepid listed a good fight.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Does Ventress know how to block lightning?

Nephthys
I think so. Well she tried to at least when her and Savage attacked Dooku.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah I was just wondering. Would be a significant advantage for Talon if she can't or sucks at doing so.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
I do not have the foggiest about this one. Ventress certainly has more feats, but I'm not sure they're actually above Talons ones. Giving Cade a good fight seems to be just as good as giving any of the characters Intrepid listed a good fight.
Ventress is skilled enough that Mace has to call on all of his skill just to drive her off. Mace's skill feats outstrip Cade's.

Nephthys
Seriously? I guess Mace is crappier than I thought. You'd think that a guy who was stalemating Sidious would be comfortably above Ventress in skill.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress is skilled enough that Mace has to call on all of his skill just to drive her off.


LOL

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Seriously? I guess Mace is crappier than I thought. You'd think that a guy who was stalemating Sidious would be comfortably above Ventress in skill.
Or maybe Mace is overrated, and the difference between duelists of his caliber and Ventress' caliber has been overblown?

Nephthys
Well in that case I suppose the difference between duelists of his caliber and Cade's has been overblown too.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well in that case I suppose he difference between duelists of his caliber and Cade's has been overblown too.
Sure, except none of Cade's feats can match Mace's.

Nephthys
Neither do Ventresses tho. :?

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Neither do Ventresses tho. :?
I never claimed as much.

Nephthys
So whats your point? If Mace is above Ventress by a bit and also above Cade by a bit and Talon has beaten or equaled Cade then isn't my original argument accurate?

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
So whats your point? If Mace is above Ventress by a bit and also above Cade by a bit and Talon has beaten or equaled Cade then isn't my original argument accurate?
No? Cade has no feats to suggest he would be more than a moderate challenge for Mace, and Talon usually loses to Cade. In fact, I have lost count of the amount of victories he has over her.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Or maybe Mace is overrated, and the difference between duelists of his caliber and Ventress' caliber has been overblown?


Dude there's a huge difference between Mace and Ventress.

Mace is Dooku level (at least), and Jedi/Sith on the level of Ventress/Kenobi/Opress are all no match for Dooku at all.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dude there's a huge difference between Mace and Ventress.

Mace is Dooku level (at least), and Jedi/Sith on the level of Ventress/Kenobi/Opress are all no match for Dooku at all.
Your opinion is noted, but irrelevant to confirmed canon.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Intrepid37
No? Cade has no feats to suggest he would be more than a moderate challenge for Mace, and Talon usually loses to Cade. In fact, I have lost count of the amount of victories he has over her.

I will defer to Q99's expertise on this manner.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
I will defer to Q99's expertise on this manner.
Might as well defer me to SWL on TOR battles.

Nephthys
Legend is smarter than you.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Your opinion is noted, but irrelevant to confirmed canon.


Confirmed canon? You mean like Mace being called Dooku's equal in Dark Rendezvous, and even matching/defeating Dooku's Master in a Saber duel in Revenge of the Sith?

Q99
Originally posted by carthage
She's skilled but her duels don't really reflect it. She's consistently beaten by Cade,

Mostly in force, not saber, and Cade is >>> Ventress in force.

In Cade and Talon's first encounter, Shado made it absolutely clear that Cade was to avoid her because she'd kill him in sabers (and he did avoid her, eventually throwing a large object). When doing entirely saber when Cade was among the sith, she was Cade's teacher and scored vital blows on him with a training saber.

Even to the end, Talon was always able to provide a fight against Cade in sabers.




I'm sure Talon has more.... lightning, strong TK, force concealment (one she's very good at), mind-reading.

Ventress pretty much only has TK and some mind tricks.

And lightning does seem like it'd be a nice edge, especially if Ventress does have trouble defending against it.

Cade and Talon's final duel. Look at that force TK- that was a flat stone floor right before.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
No? Cade has no feats to suggest he would be more than a moderate challenge for Mace,


Only if you ignore his fights against the Dark Lord of the Sith, or multiple masters at a time.



4. But, again, mainly force. Aside from the session where she stabbed him in the shoulder, she was also able to taunt and evade Cade on other occasions with her acrobatics.




Originally posted by Nephthys
Legend is smarter than you.

Agreed.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Legend is smarter than you.
Is that an insult or a joke?

Tzeentch
Originally posted by Nephthys
I do not have the foggiest about this one. Ventress certainly has more feats, but I'm not sure they're actually above Talons ones. Giving Cade a good fight seems to be just as good as giving any of the characters Intrepid listed a good fight. I really wouldn't consider her losing to Cade a feat that puts her on par with Ventress.

Hell, for that matter. What are Cade's dueling accolades? Yes, yes, I'm sure he's a prodigy and a master of some bullshit, just like every other force user in the mythos, but what had he done with a blade (at the time that he beat Talon) that would put him in the same spectrum as people like Obi-Wan and Anakin?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Is that an insult or a joke?

wink

Nephthys
Originally posted by Tzeentch
I really wouldn't consider her losing to Cade a feat that puts her on par with Ventress.

Hell, for that matter. What are Cade's dueling accolades? Yes, yes, I'm sure he's a prodigy and a master of some bullshit, just like every other force user in the mythos, but what had he done with a blade (at the time that he beat Talon) that would put him in the same spectrum as people like Obi-Wan and Anakin?

Didn't he put up a good fight against Krayt?

Tzeentch
Is this really the metric we're going by these days?

Nephthys
I dunno man. Q's made some good arguments for him in the past, I'm just too lazy to remember them.

Intrepid37
lol

Nephthys
I was talking about Cade, genius.

Q99
Originally posted by Tzeentch

Hell, for that matter. What are Cade's dueling accolades? Yes, yes, I'm sure he's a prodigy and a master of some bullshit, just like every other force user in the mythos, but what had he done with a blade (at the time that he beat Talon) that would put him in the same spectrum as people like Obi-Wan and Anakin?

At that time? He beat Darth Nihl not long after (once he decided to quit his sith training, he detonated a durasteel block with shatterpoint, hitting Talon and Nihl, stabbed Talon in the gut, then got in a duel with Nihl and cut his arm off, followed by which Krayt beat him down), and he's gotten into clashes with a number of Jedi and Imperial Knights, most specifically Shado Vao his old friend who gets on his case for being a jerk.

Late on he does stuff like gives a hard fight to Darth Krayt post-rebirth and kills, I dunno, maybe 20 various sith throughout the series*?

Cade's useful as a guide because he does pick fights with so many other characters.



*Including ones who claim badassary, "I've killed Jedi Masters stronger than you," from what appear to be the leaders of sith contingents, and such. As well as cyborg Sith Troopers, who are rather formidable. He spends months as a Sith hunter collecting bounties on Sith in the gap between the main series and War.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
I was talking about Cade, genius.
That was random.

Tzeentch
Right, and what this shows is that Cade is a very good fighter and a badass.

What it doesn't show is how he compares as a duelist to the likes of Obi-Wan and Anakin. By extension, it doesn't show if Talon somewhat holding her own against him is impressive enough to lend credence to the idea that she could take a majority against Ventress.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Intrepid37
That was random.

Yeah, I feel like I must be missing something. wink

Luv u babe.

Q99
Cade's fought Krayt. Hett's fought both Obi-wan and Anakin in his youth. Though, granted, when Hett was much different than he'd get.

Comparison across eras already involve some uncertainty, but Legacy's got more direct comparisons than most.



Mind, I'm mostly arguing for her on Force power, TK and lightning, not saber dueling skill. I do think Ventress holds the edge there.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
That was random.

It turns out if you just say 'lol', people don't know what you're talking about.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Q99
It turns out if you just say 'lol', people don't know what you're talking about.
Stop posting about matters you don't know anything about, Q.

Which means, stop posting at all.

Nephthys
Rude.

Q99
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Stop posting about matters you don't know anything about, Q.

Which means, stop posting at all.

Pretty standard, if someone says stuff you don't like, you throw a fit.



It'd help if you tried communicating and used your words in the first place, y'know?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Q99
Mostly in force, not saber, and Cade is >>> Ventress in force.


Let's not go that far. Ventress' display of sheer raw power greatly exceeds that of Cade's. Their consistent showings with the force goes to Cade by a bit, however. Ventress has force blasted a mountain with enough force to cause a huge avalanche in one comic, and loses to Dooku just as easily as Cade loses to Krayt, which is a good direct comparison because the gap between Dooku and Krayt is pretty small.

The only thing Talon has on Ventress is lightning, which can be blocked. Ventress beats her pretty solidly; better saber feats and better force feats.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Let's not go that far. Ventress' display of sheer raw power greatly exceeds that of Cade's.

Yeah, I don't see that. Cade is a Skywalker.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Their consistent showings with the force goes to Cade by a bit, however. Ventress has force blasted a mountain with enough force to cause a huge avalanche in one comic,

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3538521-7313923624-26831.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3538522-6954720071-26831.jpg

Meh. Its not as if avalanches are that hard to cause.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only thing Talon has on Ventress is lightning, which can be blocked. Ventress beats her pretty solidly; better saber feats and better force feats.

I'd put Talon ****ing up that floor on par with anything Ventress has done, barring her PMS-choking Obi-Wan and Anakin that one time.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I don't see that. Cade is a Skywalker.


What's your point? Ventress has went toe to toe with the Skywalker, who only ever beats her handily when he's in rage mode. Cade's best feat in rage mode doesn't even come close to that of Ventress', which is choking both Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh. Its not as if avalanches are that hard to cause.


True, if the avalanche is already about to fall. Considering they were fighting on it while the troopers were firing their blasters and it didn't cause it to fall, it didn't seem as if it was going to fall anytime too soon until Ventress blasted it. So I'd say it would have required a great deal of force to cause it to fall.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd put Talon ****ing up that floor on par with anything Ventress has done, barring her PMS-choking Obi-Wan and Anakin that one time.


Yeah, like what?

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What's your point? Ventress has went toe to toe with the Skywalker, who only ever beats her handily when he's in rage mode. Cade's best feat in rage mode doesn't even come close to that of Ventress', which is choking both Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time.

That Cade obviously has vastly superior sheer raw power than Ventress. Ventress doing l33t stuff in uber-rage mode doesn't compare to what a Skywalker can do in the same state aka Zonakin and Zonluke. Theres no way Ventress has anywhere close to the raw power of a Skywalker.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
True, if the avalanche is already about to fall. Considering they were fighting on it while the troopers were firing their blasters and it didn't cause it to fall, it didn't seem as if it was going to fall anytime too soon until Ventress blasted it. So I'd say it would have required a great deal of force to cause it to fall.

They were fighting under it. Idk, its not that impressive to me. Nowhere near Cade tanking that base explosion.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, like what?

What do you mean?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
That Cade obviously has vastly superior sheer raw power than Ventress. Ventress doing l33t stuff in uber-rage mode doesn't compare to what a Skywalker can do in the same state aka Zonakin and Zonluke. Theres no way Ventress has anywhere close to the raw power of a Skywalker.


Being a Skywalker doesn't mean you have the same potential as Anakin, let alone realized sheer raw power. Ventress "doing l33t stuff in uber-rage mode" isn't Ventress accessing an outside source of power, it's her using her own full raw power to it's full extent, which is something beyond anything Cade has done under similar circumstances. Cade may have greater potential than Ventress, but in terms of sheer raw power (full extent of power they're able to access at the time) Ventress has shown more. Potential and midi-chlorian count determines how powerful one can become in the future, but if they are not yet able to tap into that power then it doesn't yet belong to them, and is irrelevant for the time being.



Originally posted by Nephthys
They were fighting under it. Idk, its not that impressive to me. Nowhere near Cade tanking that base explosion.

It's pretty impressive to me. Tons of snow just resting up there, only to be brought down by a force blast. It must have been packed up there pretty tight considering the amount of snow/ice there was.

That wasn't TK cade used to block the explosion.



Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you mean?


What has Talon done to place her on Ventress' level?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd put Talon ****ing up that floor on par with anything Ventress has done, barring her PMS-choking Obi-Wan and Anakin that one time.

lol
I read this wrong. embarrasment

Do you have a scan of Talon's floor ripping feat? Or which comic it's in?

Nephthys
Q posted it here:

Originally posted by Q99
Cade and Talon's final duel. Look at that force TK- that was a flat stone floor right before.

SIDIOUS 66
Impressive.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Being a Skywalker doesn't mean you have the same potential as Anakin, let alone realized sheer raw power. Ventress "doing l33t stuff in uber-rage mode" isn't Ventress accessing an outside source of power, it's her using her own full raw power to it's full extent, which is something beyond anything Cade has done under similar circumstances. Cade may have greater potential than Ventress, but in terms of sheer raw power (full extent of power they're able to access at the time) Ventress has shown more. Potential and midi-chlorian count determines how powerful one can become in the future, but if they are not yet able to tap into that power then it doesn't yet belong to them, and is irrelevant for the time being.

Yeah, but unless Cade had well less half of Anakins potential he's still got more than Ventress does. And I was talking about potential when I poke of sheer raw power, so I guess we're talking about two different things.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's pretty impressive to me. Tons of snow just resting up there, only to be brought down by a force blast. It must have been packed up there pretty tight considering the amount of snow/ice there was.

That wasn't TK cade used to block the explosion.

~"Your gut says its good, my gut says its not! Why not put our guts together and end this funky feud!"~

Ahem. Well then I guess we should agree to disagree. I don't think its too impressive and you do but without more info or some hard SCIENCE! we're not gonna get anywhere here.

carthage
So whats the consensus on this one?

Intrepid37
Ventress was also casually hurling tree branches.

Nephthys
Wow. Tree branches. Hark at the bigshot.

You know who else can throw tree branches? Me. no expression

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow. Tree branches. Hark at the bigshot.

You know who else can throw tree branches? Me. no expression
Trees weigh a lot. And you can't hurl them several meters through the air.

Nephthys
Yeah I can. I love being STRONG. Do not doubt my STRONGNESS.

Originally posted by carthage
So whats the consensus on this one?

They seem pretty even to me. But I think most people will vote for Ventress simply because of exposure.

Tzeentch
Can you provide an actual argument for why Talon is on Ventress' level?

edit- Also, calling those things "branches" is a bit of a misnomer. They were taller and thicker than Anakin's entire body, lol. Each of them would be weighing at least several hundred pounds.

edit- Also, re-watching that fight, she ripped a support column out a wall and tossed it a few dozen meters at Anakin. That's a pretty impressive feat... stone pillars weigh dozens of tons, and are designed to support the weight of hundreds, to thousands of tons. So... to casually rip one out of a ceiling like that is actually really, really interesting.

Then again, said pillar also landed on her after Anakin threw it back, and she casually just pushed it off of her. So, the whole feat s probably just toonforce (in the same vein as Mace jumping thousands of feet and the like).

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Any final arguments from Q99? Or anyone for that matter? Declaring victor soon

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Tzeentch
, the whole feat s probably just toonforce (in the same vein as Mace jumping thousands of feet and the like).

yeah i'm pretty sure the whole thing is noted as exaggerated/n-canon.

Nephthys
Give it to tomorrow at least imo.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Can you provide an actual argument for why Talon is on Ventress' level?

edit- Also, calling those things "branches" is a bit of a misnomer. They were taller and thicker than Anakin's entire body, lol. Each of them would be weighing at least several hundred pounds.

edit- Also, re-watching that fight, she ripped a support column out a wall and tossed it a few dozen meters at Anakin. That's a pretty impressive feat... stone pillars weigh dozens of tons, and are designed to support the weight of hundreds, to thousands of tons. So... to casually rip one out of a ceiling like that is actually really, really interesting.


Then again, said pillar also landed on her after Anakin threw it back, and she casually just pushed it off of her. So, the whole feat s probably just toonforce (in the same vein as Mace jumping thousands of feet and the like).

Blasting apart the floor with TK, lightning and pretty good dueling ability. I've made this fairly clear.

Logs would be more accurate, probably.

Well yeah, this is CWC we're talking about. Crazy Force usage is to be expected. In an earlier episode she rips massive boulders out of a cavern ceiling too.

Tzeentch
If "blasting apart the floor with TK, lightning and pretty good dueling ability" is the sole argument for her being on Ventress' level, then it's not a very good argument. That's why I'm asking for one to be presented.

I shouldn't even have to tell you how lazy "pretty good dueling ability" and "well she lost to this one guy who's pretty good" is for an argument. no expression Come on, man.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah i'll probably give it till tomorrow afternoon.

Q99
Originally posted by Tzeentch

edit- Also, calling those things "branches" is a bit of a misnomer. They were taller and thicker than Anakin's entire body, lol. Each of them would be weighing at least several hundred pounds.


Sure, but conversely, Talon ripped up stone many times bigger than her entire body. Twice her height, multiple times her width.

link.

That's tens of tons, in addition to the force required to break it out of the floor.

Tzeentch
If we're still using Tartovsky Clone War's feats, what Assaj did with the support pillar is vastly superior to Talon's feat there.

carthage
Asajj wins

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Tzeentch
If we're still using Tartovsky Clone War's feats, what Assaj did with the support pillar is vastly superior to Talon's feat there.

it's noted as exaggerated material, is it not?

Nephthys
Originally posted by Tzeentch
If "blasting apart the floor with TK, lightning and pretty good dueling ability" is the sole argument for her being on Ventress' level, then it's not a very good argument. That's why I'm asking for one to be presented.

I shouldn't even have to tell you how lazy "pretty good dueling ability" and "well she lost to this one guy who's pretty good" is for an argument. no expression Come on, man.

And most of the arguments for Ventress have been 'well she did pretty well but still lost against these guys who are pretty good.' I haven't seen you make an argument, tough guy.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
If we're still using Tartovsky Clone War's feats, what Assaj did with the support pillar is vastly superior to Talon's feat there.

We're not.

Tzeentch
Q compared the tree feat to Talon's feat, so obviously he is, at least.

Q99
Originally posted by Tzeentch
If we're still using Tartovsky Clone War's feats, what Assaj did with the support pillar is vastly superior to Talon's feat there.


It's got a couple times less volume/mass of rock than Talon's, and that's a Tartovsky feat.



I think it says a lot that it does take Tartovsky feats to get Ventresses' force level near Talon's. Normal Ventress, not even close. And there's still lightning and such.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, we aren't using Tartovsky feats tho.

Tzeentch
Originally posted by Q99
It's got a couple times less volume/mass of rock than Talon's, and that's a Tartovsky feat.



I think it says a lot that it does take Tartovsky feats to get Ventresses' force level near Talon's. Normal Ventress, not even close. And there's still lightning and such.

They're both tartovsky feats. The tree throwing and the pillar throwing happened in the same fight.

I don't know if I'm on drugs, or you guys are.

Q99
Originally posted by Tzeentch
They're both tartosvsky feats.

I feel like I'm losing my mind.

Talon's isn't. The branch and the pillar is. The branch is much less than Talon's, the pillar is in the same league.


Only Tartosvsky Ventress approaches Talon in force (though Talon *still* has lightning over her).

And we aren't using Tartosvsky, we're using TCW S5 Ventress.


TCW S5 Ventress certainly is well behind Talon in the force.

Tzeentch
I KNOW TALON'S ISN'T. I'M CONFUSED WHY YOU KEEP SAYING NO TARTOVSKY FEATS WHILE CONTINUING TO DISCUSS THE TREE THROWING THOUGH, SINCE THE TREE THROWING IS A TARTOVSKY FEAT.

The pillar feat isn't equal to the ground crushing, though. It's superior. You would need a lot more force to rip out a support pillar and hurl it several dozen meters than you would need to tear up the ground like that.

Q99
Originally posted by Tzeentch
I KNOW TALON'S ISN'T. I'M CONFUSED WHY YOU KEEP SAYING NO TARTOVSKY FEATS WHILE CONTINUING TO DISCUSS THE TREE THROWING THOUGH, SINCE THE TREE THROWING IS A TARTOVSKY FEAT.

You brought up the branch and pillar in the first place ^^;;

And the point remains: The only version of Ventress who's around Talon's level in the force is one we're not using. Therefore Talon has a fairly significant force advantage here.





There's a couple times more mass in the ground feat, though, and it is hard to rip apart stone.

They're in the same general league.

ares834
Why aren't we using Genndy's series?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
it's noted as exaggerated material, is it not?

According to Filoni, sure. But Filoni also says the EU is non-canon.

Nephthys
But it really is exaggerated. A lot.

Tzeentch
There may be more mass but it's in a softer material. Cade and Talon are essentially fighting on dirt. Breaking (relatively) loosely packed earth isn't in the same league as casually ripping out a stone support pillar that is packed and designed specifically to support hundreds of thousands of pounds of weight. You could replicate Talon's feat in a few minutes with a hydraulic breaker. It would take hours for said machine to drill through a pillar of the size displayed, though.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
But it really is exaggerated. A lot.

So is TOR. no expression

See I can make baseless claims as well.

Also Ventress was choking both Anakin and Kenobi simultaneously in the CW. Frankly, that's quite a bit more impressive than throwing around a boulder.

carthage
Choking Anakin yes. Kenobi has had his shields penetrated more than an a hooker.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
So is TOR. no expression

See I can make baseless claims as well.

Also Ventress was choking both Anakin and Kenobi simultaneously in the CW. Frankly, that's quite a bit more impressive than throwing around a boulder.

No, its not. Tartosvsky's series is exaggerated because the characters in it perform well above what they do in their other appearances. They are exaggerations of what the characters usually can do. TOR is not.

Rage-induced. You may as well have pointed out Zonakin. roll eyes (sarcastic)

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, its not. Tartosvsky's series is exaggerated because the characters in it perform well above what they do in their other appearances. They are exaggerations of what the characters usually can do. TOR is not.

So based on your opinion and not anything concrete? K. It's still considered canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Rage-induced. You may as well have pointed out Zonakin. roll eyes (sarcastic)

So you're dismissing more of her feats... laughing out loud

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
So based on your opinion and not anything concrete? K. It's still considered canon.



So you're dismissing more of her feats... laughing out loud

Too bad the OP said otherwise. wink

You seriously think Ventress can choke out Kenobi and Anakin normally? no expression

Q99
Originally posted by Tzeentch
There may be more mass but it's in a softer material. Cade and Talon are essentially fighting on dirt. Breaking (relatively) loosely packed earth isn't in the same league as casually ripping out a stone support pillar that is packed and designed specifically to support hundreds of thousands of pounds of weight. You could replicate Talon's feat in a few minutes with a hydraulic breaker. It would take hours for said machine to drill through a pillar of the size displayed, though.


That is the floor of the Jedi Temple. It is not soft, it is solid stone smile (Nor does dirt hold together like it clearly does)

Also, Asajj pulled the pillar out from between two places of stone- it was not connected, weight held it in place.



And, of course, TCW Asajj cannot do the like.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
You seriously think Ventress can choke out Kenobi and Anakin normally? no expression

The whole point of those episodes were that Ventress had grown to such an extent that Palpatine wanted her eliminated. Dismissing it simply because she was pissed is silly.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
The whole point of those episodes were that Ventress had grown to such an extent that Palpatine wanted her eliminated. Dismissing it simply because she was pissed is silly.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

Okaaaay........

You know that not even Dooku can choke out Anakin normally, let alone Anakin and Kenobi simultaneously? You know, the Dooku who kicked her ass a few episodes later?

ares834
Yeah, it's a crazy good feat.

thumb up

A Terrible Rod
Dismissing the Tartakovsky series on account of it being exaggerated is somewhat shortsighted. Sure, in comparison to TCW and the prequels, it is. But in comparison to the greater EU, it's hardly out of place. Most of the other more ridiculous EU feats would likewise not have happened had those characters been in a series like TCW. It's a matter of comparing like to like. If you're going solely by higher canon, then the EU stuff doesn't exist at all. If you drop down a bit, then the microseries should also be fair game. Otherwise you're left with a situation where canonically powerful force users are beyond pathetic when compared to even some mooks from different eras (barring a few feats, to be fair). It's just an even bigger mess than you started out with.

DarthAnt66
ooo new member.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Dismissing the Tartakovsky series on account of it being exaggerated is somewhat shortsighted. Sure, in comparison to TCW and the prequels, it is. But in comparison to the greater EU, it's hardly out of place. Most of the other more ridiculous EU feats would likewise not have happened had those characters been in a series like TCW. It's a matter of comparing like to like. If you're going solely by higher canon, then the EU stuff doesn't exist at all. If you drop down a bit, then the microseries should also be fair game. Otherwise you're left with a situation where canonically powerful force users are beyond pathetic when compared to even some mooks from different eras (barring a few feats, to be fair). It's just an even bigger mess than you started out with.


thumb up


Originally posted by Nephthys

You know that not even Dooku can choke out Anakin normally,

He can't seem to choke an ultra pissed Anakin whilst in the middle of a Saber fight with him. But he did kick slam a slightly pissed Anakin whilst casually force choking Kenobi in ROTS. And that was mid-Saber fight, being simultaneously attacked by both.

That's quite a bit greater than Ventress's feat I'd say.

Intrepid37
For me, it's all about consistency. I don't think it'd be reasonable to bring up Mace's telekinetic creaming of a battle droid army when we see him struggling to move small transports in newer canon, whereas Ventress hurling trees and boulders is consistent with her other showings from a different media, such as causing an avalanche.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
For me, it's all about consistency. I don't think it'd be reasonable to bring up Mace's telekinetic creaming of a battle droid army when we see him struggling to move small transports in newer canon, whereas Ventress hurling trees and boulders is consistent with her other showings from a different media, such as causing an avalanche.


Either we take the shows feats or we don't. You can't just say "yeah those feats make sense for Ventress but not for Windu" LOL

Intrepid37
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Either we take the shows feats or we don't. You can't just say "yeah those feats make sense for Ventress but not for Windu" LOL
I just explained why we can.

Nephthys
This discussion is irrelevant. XSUPREMEXSKILLZ said we aren't using Tartakovsky feats and its his battlezone.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, it's a crazy good feat.

thumb up

Well something sure is crazy alright.

thumb up

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He can't seem to choke an ultra pissed Anakin whilst in the middle of a Saber fight with him. But he did kick slam a slightly pissed Anakin whilst casually force choking Kenobi in ROTS. And that was mid-Saber fight, being simultaneously attacked by both.

That's quite a bit greater than Ventress's feat I'd say.

Dooku can't choke him out period. Dooku was panting from the sheer effort of just knocking out an Anakin who was being electrocuted by stunpikes. Furthermore, Anakin and Kenobi proved that together they can resist his TK in their latest CW fight.

Whaaaat, no its not. erm Kicking someone isn't the same as Force choking them, duh. Its not nearly as impressive a Force feat.

A Terrible Rod
Originally posted by Intrepid37
For me, it's all about consistency. I don't think it'd be reasonable to bring up Mace's telekinetic creaming of a battle droid army when we see him struggling to move small transports in newer canon, whereas Ventress hurling trees and boulders is consistent with her other showings from a different media, such as causing an avalanche.
Which is something I'd take back to what I previously stated, in comparing like to like. If we take Windu's anemic TCW feats as the full extent of his ability, then the second greatest Jedi in the order has so very little to justify that accolade when compared to other characters' feats across different media. Which is fine if everything not TCW and prequels is ignored, because no one else has those sorts of over-the-top feats. It gets even more muddy when you consider things that directly tie into TCW, and you end up with a woefully inconsistent universe to make sense of.

As far as considering the EU as a whole, I wouldn't say that the force-users' general weakness is indicative of those characters as a whole, but simply the lower end of their showings. Otherwise you end up comparing a guy who can't yank his lightsaber out of some muggle's hand to a guy who can vaporize boulders, and God help someone who wants to argue in favor of the former, even if that character is supposed to be really good.

I wouldn't bring levels of canonicity into it at all unless both characters have sufficient feats within that level of canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This discussion is irrelevant. XSUPREMEXSKILLZ said we aren't using Tartakovsky feats and its his battlezone.
And I'm trying to argue why that's not a good idea. Besides, this is only the second thread. It's not really too late to convince him otherwise.

Feel free to think it irrelevant, though. I just don't think that dismissing feats from powerful characters (and it's not like Windu and Yoda are anything but) just because they pass some arbitrarily-decided threshold of acceptability is something that we should be doing, at least in the scope of the EU as a whole.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I just explained why we can.


And your explanation is lame bro.



Originally posted by Nephthys

Dooku can't choke him out period. Dooku was panting from the sheer effort of just knocking out an Anakin who was being electrocuted by stunpikes.

He actually did Force choke him first. And followed it up by KO'ing him with FL. And I wouldn't look much into his panting face, as he gives a similar panting face in the latest episode after he just throws a few guards, and before he even engages Obi-Wan and Anakin.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, Anakin and Kenobi proved that together they can resist his TK in their latest CW fight.

The 2 of them combined resisted a one handed force push.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whaaaat, no its not. erm Kicking someone isn't the same as Force choking them, duh. Its not nearly as impressive a Force feat.

Urm what... The guy kick slammed him with a force enhanced kick, whilst simultaneously force choking and throwing Kenobi, and all in the middle of a lightsaber battle when they were both attacking him simultaneously.

Compare that to Kenobi and Anakin having Ventress disarmed and giving her a chance to surrender, so she takes advantage by attacking them both with the Force.

Dooku's feat was definitely a more impressive combat feat, which included a good load of Force powers. Dooku's feat left Kenobi KO'd and Skywalker floored. Ventress's feat didn't leave either opponent KO'd or Floored.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And your explanation is lame bro.
Better than your ''take it all or leave it all'' explanation.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
As far as considering the EU as a whole, I wouldn't say that the force-users' general weakness is indicative of those characters as a whole, but simply the lower end of their showings.
There's a difference between low showings and inconsistent showings.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He actually did Force choke him first. And followed it up by KO'ing him with FL. And I wouldn't look much into his panting face, as he gives a similar panting face in the latest episode after he just throws a few guards, and before he even engages Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I know, that's what I meant. Dooku struggles to handle Anakin with the Force even when Anakin is on his knees getting zapped by 4 stunpikes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The 2 of them combined resisted a one handed force push.

Mmm hmm. Dooku cannot overpower both of them at once like Ventress did. Anyone with half a brain knows that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm what... The guy kick slammed him with a force enhanced kick, whilst simultaneously force choking and throwing Kenobi, and all in the middle of a lightsaber battle when they were both attacking him simultaneously.

Compare that to Kenobi and Anakin having Ventress disarmed and giving her a chance to surrender, so she takes advantage by attacking them both with the Force.

Dooku's feat was definitely a more impressive combat feat, which included a good load of Force powers. Dooku's feat left Kenobi KO'd and Skywalker floored. Ventress's feat didn't leave either opponent KO'd or Floored.

So what? Kicking someone seriously is not as impressive as Force Choking someone. You're not gonna use the Force to resist a kick, while Force Chokes usually have to rip through a Force barrier and you need to keep it up when the opponent obviously would be trying to block it with the Force. Ventresses feat is clearly superior since she maintained a Force Choke on Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, when they would obviously be fighting back.

You can say Dookus feat was more impressive in terms of his ability to pull it off in combat or whatever the **** I don't care, but its not close as impressive a Force feat. erm

Nephthys
Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
And I'm trying to argue why that's not a good idea. Besides, this is only the second thread. It's not really too late to convince him otherwise.

Feel free to think it irrelevant, though. I just don't think that dismissing feats from powerful characters (and it's not like Windu and Yoda are anything but) just because they pass some arbitrarily-decided threshold of acceptability is something that we should be doing, at least in the scope of the EU as a whole.

Tempest?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Better than your ''take it all or leave it all'' explanation.


What?

Of course you include it all or ignore it all. You can't just pick and choose feats that you think makes sense.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What?

Of course you include it all or ignore it all. You can't just pick and choose feats that you think makes sense.
I just explained why we can. You finding the explanation lame is all well and good, but you've done nothing to make me reconsider.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
Mmm hmm. Dooku cannot overpower both of them at once like Ventress did. Anyone with half a brain knows that.

Really?




Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? Kicking someone seriously is not as impressive as Force Choking someone. You're not gonna use the Force to resist a kick, while Force Chokes usually have to rip through a Force barrier and you need to keep it up when the opponent obviously would be trying to block it with the Force. Ventresses feat is clearly superior since she maintained a Force Choke on Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, when they would obviously be fighting back.

You can say Dookus feat was more impressive in terms of his ability to pull it off in combat or whatever the **** I don't care, but its not close as impressive a Force feat. erm

Well he still had a Lightsaber in one hand so unless you expect him to put his weapon down he obviously couldn't force choke them both in that situation. Remember Ventress only did it AFTER she was already disarmed and taking advantage of Skywalker and Kenobi giving her a chance to surrender.

Even if we forget the Flooring of Anakin, Force choking and KO'ing Kenobi like that, in the mdist of combat is a far more impressive force feat to me, especially when you look at the complete ease with which he casually dismissed and KO'd Kenobi. When you include the fact that he simultaneously had the Force strength to give frigging Skywalker a Force enhanced kick strong enough to Floor him and make him helpless for the next 10 seconds, it all makes Dooku's Force feat far more impressive to me. Without any question.

A Terrible Rod
Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's a difference between low showings and inconsistent showings.
Id est, the entire universe. The alternative would be to straight-up not compare different series, as defined by a fairly consistent approach to the various elements that make up force power. For example, some of those TOR characters have consistently powerful feats that put some of the microseries stuff to shame. Which is quite inconsistent with the way force abilities in general are portrayed in TCW, which is itself consistently more low-key. The entire things are completely at odds with one another, and to directly compare only them, you'd end up with a sad state of affairs in the supposed golden age of the Jedi. But that's an extreme I don't think anyone is arguing for, so I'll leave that there.

But in general most other PT-era sources are given weight here. Some are more in line with the films and TCW, some are beyond what those would ever show. By placing the microseries at the high end of these characters' feats, and TCW at the low end, you end up with a more compatible picture. Maybe Windu was really feelin' it in his midicholrians when he took down that droid army. Maybe the war was making him a little sleepy when he was chasing some mooks and trying to save a cartoon bird lady.

Maybe it's not important. The important part, to me, is that a powerful character like Mace Windu loses something when his best feats, which are in line with what one might expect of one of the most powerful Jedi, are dismissed because a more recent series makes him seem kinda weak. That series makes everyone weak. And it would make everyone else weak if they were in it. And then we'd be left arguing the same thing, and ignoring these characters feats from whatever series because it's inconsistent. Of course it is. It's not the same thing. And we're doing a disservice to sensible discourse by choosing to, rather than reconcile these differences, take them at face value.

So, context. I already explained that. You disagree, fine. But at least make an argument for it that goes beyond appeals to canonicity. That serves no one, and just kills discussion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest?
Hope not. I don't like being other people.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I just explained why we can. You finding the explanation lame is all well and good, but you've done nothing to make me reconsider.


Ok fine, I'll take Mace's CW Mini feats because it's consistent with Mace casually Force Crushing multiple destroyer droids and defeating the Emperor. But I'll ignore Ventress's, Anakin's, and Kenobi's because they were all above and beyond the other feats we've seen performed by them.

My thoughts and my words are now canon. And we shall use my rules as we debate.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?

Really.

Do you quarrel, sir?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he still had a Lightsaber in one hand so unless you expect him to put his weapon down he obviously couldn't force choke them both in that situation. Remember Ventress only did it AFTER she was already disarmed and taking advantage of Skywalker and Kenobi giving her a chance to surrender.

Even if we forget the Flooring of Anakin, Force choking and KO'ing Kenobi like that, in the mdist of combat is a far more impressive force feat to me. When you include the fact that he had the strength to give frigging Skywalker a Force enhanced kick strong enough to Floor him and make him helpless for the next 10 seconds, all makes Dooku's Force feat far more impressive to me. Without any question.

I don't see how that matters at all. Are you trying to excuse Dooku for not Force Choking them both? Dude, if he could do that, he would do it every time they fight. If you're strong enough to Force Choke someone then why would you ever need to fight them in a prolonged duel, you're obviously able to Force pwn them comfortably.

What the ****? Why would that be as remotely as powerful as Force Choking Obi-Wan AND Anakin at the same time! Are you high? Am I talking to a crazy person? Just because he did it in the midst of combat doesn't make it more powerful. All it means is that Dooku is a superior combatant to be able to pull that off, by kicking Anakin out of the way and Force pwning Obi-wan. Obviously Dooku doing that is "better" than what Ventress did, but its not more powerful. At all. Ventress overpowering Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time is better than Dooku overpowering Obi-Wan and kicking Anakin. One of them involves overpowering both of them, the other involves overpowering one of them and kicking the other in the face. There is no comparison there.

Oh, he can use a Force-enhanced kick. Wow, good for him ANY JEDI CAN DO THAT! They only impressive part is that he actually managed to land it on Anakin, which doesn't have anything to do with the Force and is completely, utterly irrelevant to this topic. Jesus......

http://fireden.net/4chan/images.4chan.org//vg/src/1386695865026.png
Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Hope not. I don't like being other people.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/278/d/c/okey__dokey__lokey_by_mezkalito4p-d4by14x.gif

Nephthys
Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Id est, the entire universe. The alternative would be to straight-up not compare different series, as defined by a fairly consistent approach to the various elements that make up force power. For example, some of those TOR characters have consistently powerful feats that put some of the microseries stuff to shame. Which is quite inconsistent with the way force abilities in general are portrayed in TCW, which is itself consistently more low-key. The entire things are completely at odds with one another, and to directly compare only them, you'd end up with a sad state of affairs in the supposed golden age of the Jedi. But that's an extreme I don't think anyone is arguing for, so I'll leave that there.

I don't see that at all. TOR and other era stuff are entirely consistent with all other eras. The issue with the Clone Wars is one of internal inconsistency in the era itself. Its inconsistent for the characters depicted in the Tartakovsky series to suddenly be well, well under-performing in other mediums. THAT is inconsistent. Its internally inconsistent with whats established in the vast majority of depictions of the same characters in other mediums. It is not inconsistent for TOR era characters to perform Force feats beyond what their clone wars compatriots do. That's not inconsistent, that's just them being better than them in that regard. The CW era is simply a low-key era, populated almost entirely with Jedi who do not push the Force in ways other eras do.

A Terrible Rod
Originally posted by Nephthys
It is not inconsistent for TOR era characters to perform Force feats beyond what their clone wars compatriots do. That's not inconsistent, that's just them being better than them in that regard. The CW era is simply a low-key era, populated almost entirely with Jedi who do not push the Force in ways other eras do.
Well, I imagine we're not going to ever agree on that point. Of course, I'm prone to dismissing anything TOR out of hand, and won't even try to pretend that I'm not hideously biased against it. So I won't tackle how the TOR-era force-users stack up to the PT-era ones. It would get nowhere.

Instead, a question. Can you honestly say that, if a TCW-style series (same creative approach, that is) were made of the TOR era, the characters there would still be performing the same sorts of feats? Maybe you could, but I would imagine they would receive a similar treatment.

(For clarification's sake, in my mind: PT-era EU is good. PT itself is garbage.)

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest?

No, but I do like this guy.

Nephthys
Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Well, I imagine we're not going to ever agree on that point. Of course, I'm prone to dismissing anything TOR out of hand, and won't even try to pretend that I'm not hideously biased against it. So I won't tackle how the TOR-era force-users stack up to the PT-era ones. It would get nowhere.

Instead, a question. Can you honestly say that, if a TCW-style series (same creative approach, that is) were made of the TOR era, the characters there would still be performing the same sorts of feats? Maybe you could, but I would imagine they would receive a similar treatment.

(For clarification's sake, in my mind: PT-era EU is good. PT itself is garbage.)

Well now you're really sounding like Tempest. excellent (sick burn!)

I dunno. I think that wouldn't be unlikely. The caliber of the TOR era people is just on the whole superior to the PT era. The Dark Council seems much more powerful than the Jedi High Council. The Hero of Tython and the Barsen'thor are much more powerful than Anakin and Obi-Wan. Darth Nox and Darth Malgus are greater than Dooku and Maul. And this isn't just by feats, but by actual accomplishments and absolute canon info as well. Yoda and Sidious obviously stack up though.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
Really.

Do you quarrel, sir?


Uh yeah..



Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how that matters at all. Are you trying to excuse Dooku for not Force Choking them both?

How the f*** could he whilst in the middle a Saber fight with both of them. I mean honestly when was the last time you saw ANY Jedi or Sith Force choking 2 other powerful Jedi simultaneously Mid-Saber battle?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, if he could do that, he would do it every time they fight. If you're strong enough to Force Choke someone then why would you ever need to fight them in a prolonged duel, you're obviously able to Force pwn them comfortably.


Oh really? That's why Ventress force choked them both right at the beginning of the fight right? Oh wait.. What exactly was she waiting for? The right opportunity maybe..

And that's why Dooku Force choked Kenobi and kick slammed Skywalker everytime they fought right? You need to sit back, calm down, and start applying some consistent logic once in a while.


Originally posted by Nephthys
What the ****? Why would that be as remotely as powerful as Force Choking Obi-Wan AND Anakin at the same time! Are you high?

No, but I'm beginning to think you are.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Am I talking to a crazy person?

If your talking to yourself again then YES YOU ARE.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because he did it in the midst of combat doesn't make it more powerful.

It obviously makes it a much more difficult feat.


Originally posted by Nephthys
All it means is that Dooku is a superior combatant to be able to pull that off,

And more powerful in the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
by kicking Anakin out of the way and Force pwning Obi-wan. Obviously Dooku doing that is "better" than what Ventress did, but its not more powerful. At all.

LOL Of course it makes him more powerful. Which one of the duo did Ventress KO again?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress overpowering Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time is better than Dooku overpowering Obi-Wan and kicking Anakin. One of them involves overpowering both of them, the other involves overpowering one of them and kicking the other in the face. There is no comparison there.

Again, which one of them did Ventress KO again? And how do you not consider Dooku's feat as overpowering them both? He KO'd one of them and floored the other one leaving him helpless. Your right though, there is no comparison here. Dooku's feat is far greater.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, he can use a Force-enhanced kick. Wow, good for him ANY JEDI CAN DO THAT! They only impressive part is that he actually managed to land it on Anakin, which doesn't have anything to do with the Force and is completely, utterly irrelevant to this topic. Jesus......

And those beastly Force enhanced kicks which leave Skywalker floored half way across the room, which apparently ANYONE can do, requires no power in the Force at all right? You need to call Jesus more often son, to come down and knock some sense into you.


Originally posted by Nephthys
http://fireden.net/4chan/images.4chan.org//vg/src/1386695865026.png
]


To some up let's compare the feats again. Ventress after already being disarmed of both her weapons, and given an opportunity to surrender, Screams, clearly using all of the power and rage at her disposal, manages to temporarily levitate 2 Jedi, choking them, but with no definite result to be predicted of that outcome.

Dooku on the other hand manages to casually levitate and KO Kenobi in the midst of Lightsaber combat against multiple opponents, and also manages to do this whilst clearly using a considerable amount of Force power to send Skywalker flying... And you think that's not even comparable to what Ventress did? Really?

Think you should direct those facepalms back at yourself kiddo.

A Terrible Rod
Originally posted by Nephthys
The caliber of the TOR era people is just on the whole superior to the PT era.
Well, they were certainly written to be quite powerful, but I'd sooner put that to the writers having no sense of scope than anything else. Which, of course, should ultimately not matter in discussions of relative power and the like, but is hard to ignore.

Incoming wall of off-topic crap, by the by. But I feel the need to vent a little. This has no bearing on reality, mind you. Just... opinions. (I'd stick it in a spoiler tag if I could.)

That is to say, from my point of view, these characters might seem to be really very powerful, but they really shouldn't be. Let's look at Dooku. He was, after all, considered by the Jedi of the time as one of the greatest in the history of the order. I'd envision characters like this are supposed to be a cut above, the exceptions. The sort of character you get a few of every era. Dooku, Windu, eventually Vader, and so on. Then the really good characters of the era, maybe a dozen or so, our Obi-Wans, our Mauls, our Kit Fistos (or substitute your own favorite character here).

Then you get TOR. Blam, you get like two dozen characters right out of the gate who seem to blow the good Count out of the water, and I just don't think that's a good thing. At Dooku's level you should have a few: Malgus, our player characters (because players need to have their egos fluffed), Satele Shan (she is the grandmaster, after all, but she's no Yoda). Then the better Dark Council members and Jedi masters fill the next 'tier'. The Emperor would of course fill the Sidous or Yoda level.

That'll do for now.

The_Tempest
thumb up

Peculiar how hyperbolic, exaggerated portrayals are only ever considered when it comes to film characters.

Intrepid37
Since when did DP become a psuedo KT? Goddamn.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Uh yeah..

Do you bit your thumb at me, sir?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How the f*** could he whilst in the middle a Saber fight with both of them. I mean honestly when was the last time you saw ANY Jedi or Sith Force choking 2 other powerful Jedi simultaneously Mid-Saber battle?

Why would he even need to engage them in a lighsaber duel if he could have just walked into the throne room and throttled them into submission?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh really? That's why Ventress force choked them both right at the beginning of the fight right? Oh wait.. What exactly was she waiting for? The right opportunity maybe..

And that's why Dooku Force choked Kenobi and kick slammed Skywalker everytime they fought right? You need to sit back, calm down, and start applying some consistent logic once in a while.

THANK you! Thats exactly my point, that Ventress can't do that normally, can she? Ventress only achieved that by, as you said, "using all of the power and rage at her disposal". Its a much more powerful feat than she is ordinarily capable of, considering Anakin is her superior in the Force. That is the entire point that I am making after all. That it is woefully inconsistent with her other feats and considering its above what even Dooku is capable of, not something she can do regularly.

Dooku can Force pwn Kenobi though, pretty much whenever he wants.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, but I'm beginning to think you are.

I apologise for my harsh tone earlier. I still do think you are being pretty silly though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It obviously makes it a much more difficult feat.

Yes, but it doesn't require more power. Its a good feat of skill, combat skill, but not power. Which is what he are discussing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And more powerful in the Force.

Obviously Dooku is more powerful than her. But that feat she did is above him, hence the inconsistency.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL Of course it makes him more powerful. Which one of the duo did Ventress KO again?

KO'ing them isn't the point. The point is that she choked them both for several seconds where they couldn't resist her. Just like Dooku held Kenobi without him being able to stop him. Dooku's feat is not more powerful because he KO'ed Kenobi, just more effective.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again, which one of them did Ventress KO again? And how do you not consider Dooku's feat as overpowering them both? He KO'd one of them and floored the other one leaving him helpless. Your right though, there is no comparison here. Dooku's feat is far greater.

He didn't overpower Anakin with the Force. There was no direct Force attack made on Anakin. Dooku just kicked him, while enhancing the kicks power. No big deal.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And those beastly Force enhanced kicks which leave Skywalker floored half way across the room, which apparently ANYONE can do, requires no power in the Force at all right? You need to call Jesus more often son, to come down and knock some sense into you.

Pretty much an average Jedi could enhance a kick to make it more powerful.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
To some up let's compare the feats again. Ventress after already being disarmed of both her weapons, and given an opportunity to surrender, Screams, clearly using all of the power and rage at her disposal, manages to temporarily levitate 2 Jedi, choking them, but with no definite result to be predicted of that outcome.

Dooku on the other hand manages to casually levitate and KO Kenobi in the midst of Lightsaber combat against multiple opponents, and also manages to do this whilst clearly using a considerable amount of Force power to send Skywalker flying... And you think that's not even comparable to what Ventress did? Really?

Think you should direct those facepalms back at yourself kiddo.

That about sums it up. Except where it apparantly takes a considerable amount of Force power to kick someone in the face. The PT era is THAT weak, come on. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Also Anakin only 'flew' a few feet away.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Well, they were certainly written to be quite powerful, but I'd sooner put that to the writers having no sense of scope than anything else. Which, of course, should ultimately not matter in discussions of relative power and the like, but is hard to ignore.

Incoming wall of off-topic crap, by the by. But I feel the need to vent a little. This has no bearing on reality, mind you. Just... opinions. (I'd stick it in a spoiler tag if I could.)

That is to say, from my point of view, these characters might seem to be really very powerful, but they really shouldn't be. Let's look at Dooku. He was, after all, considered by the Jedi of the time as one of the greatest in the history of the order. I'd envision characters like this are supposed to be a cut above, the exceptions. The sort of character you get a few of every era. Dooku, Windu, eventually Vader, and so on. Then the really good characters of the era, maybe a dozen or so, our Obi-Wans, our Mauls, our Kit Fistos (or substitute your own favorite character here).

Then you get TOR. Blam, you get like two dozen characters right out of the gate who seem to blow the good Count out of the water, and I just don't think that's a good thing. At Dooku's level you should have a few: Malgus, our player characters (because players need to have their egos fluffed), Satele Shan (she is the grandmaster, after all, but she's no Yoda). Then the better Dark Council members and Jedi masters fill the next 'tier'. The Emperor would of course fill the Sidous or Yoda level.

That'll do for now.

Fair points. TOR is just the latest in the long line of Star Wars trying to top itself after all.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Since when did DP become a psuedo KT? Goddamn.


Goddamn you for comparing me to KT! I mean KT?! KT?!




Originally posted by Nephthys

Why would he even need to engage them in a lighsaber duel if he could have just walked into the throne room and throttled them into submission?

Why didn't he just force choke Kenobi as soon as he walked in?

Perhaps to seduce Anakin to the Dark side under Sidious's orders. Or perhaps it's just not that simple.



Originally posted by Nephthys
THANK you! Thats exactly my point, that Ventress can't do that normally, can she? Ventress only achieved that by, as you said, "using all of the power and rage at her disposal". Its a much more powerful feat than she is ordinarily capable of, considering Anakin is her superior in the Force. That is the entire point that I am making after all. That it is woefully inconsistent with her other feats and considering its above what even Dooku is capable of, not something she can do regularly.

But she was in an Rage enhanced state the whole time. And yet she still chose to engage them in Lightsaber combat first.

But basically yeah I'm going by Dooku being more powerful (based on those 2 feats alone) because of his attack's:

1. Effectivness.
2. Context.
3. The ease with which he did his, compared to the difficulty and concentration Ventress had to put into hers. Her attack which wasn't even going to necessarily KO either of them. And it was in doubt how long she could carry that on for.






Originally posted by Nephthys
I apologise for my harsh tone earlier. I still do think you are pretty.


Thank you. I knew my new haircut would do wonders.




Originally posted by Nephthys
That about sums it up. Except where it apparantly takes a considerable amount of Force power to kick someone in the face. The PT era is THAT weak, come on. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Also Anakin only 'flew' a few feet away.





No no no no no. No. No.

It obviously requires some power in the Force, (especially considering who it is he's sending flying). Making his very casual Force KO of Kenobi even more impressive.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why didn't he just force choke Kenobi as soon as he walked in?

Perhaps to seduce Anakin to the Dark side under Sidious's orders. Or perhaps it's just not that simple.

Because Anakin would have either helped Obi-Wan block it, like how they did in S6 or he would have attacked Dooku to make him stop.

Also yeah, Dooku was playing at the start.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But she was in an Rage enhanced state the whole time. And yet she still chose to engage them in Lightsaber combat first.

But basically yeah I'm going by Dooku being more powerful (based on those 2 feats alone) because of his attack's:

1. Effectivness.
2. Context.
3. The ease with which he did his, compared to the difficulty and concentration Ventress had to put into hers. Her attack which wasn't even going to necessarily KO either of them. And it was in doubt how long she could carry that on for.

She was pissed maybe, but not desperate enough to really give it everything. Also, I don't see what your point is here.

1. Nothing to do with power.
2. Nothing to do with power.
3. Dooku did it out of desperation though. It was not easy for him. Plus overpowering Kenobi relatively easily is still not nearly as impressive as overpowering Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. And its not as if Dooku KO'd Kenobi through direct Force power either, he did it by chucking him against a railing. And she had pulled it off for a full 6 seconds, more than enough time for the Jedi to attempt to break her Force Grip. They were unlikely to do so before she KO'd them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No no no no no. No. No.

It obviously requires some power in the Force, (especially considering who it is he's sending flying). Making his very casual Force KO of Kenobi even more impressive.

Some power, obviously yes. Some small amount of power. wink

Seriously I don't even know why you're arguing this. Ventress' feat is so obviously superior to his I can't comprehend what you're thinking.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys

Seriously I don't even know why you're arguing this. Ventress' feat is so obviously superior to his I can't comprehend what you're thinking.


I really don't see it, because we never saw the end effect of her attack. If she ended up KO'ing both of them, then yeah I'd 100% agree. But as it was Dooku KO's one of them with complete ease, while doing a simultaneous powerful attack mid-saber fight. Whilst Ventress attacked them both with clear difficulty and with no quantifiable result.

Tzeentch
Well, this thread exploded.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Gonna decide winner soon. Both sides provide your final arguments now.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Before I give my own analysis I have a question: How badly did Cade lose to Krayt in sabers?

Emperordmb
IIRC Krayt curbed him, then Cade stabbed him in the chest when he lowered his guard.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Might as well defer me to SWL on TOR battles.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121007165231/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/2/2b/Apply_cold_water_to_burned_area.jpeg
(Directed to SWL, not Q. He's a badass with his Legacy)

Q99
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Gonna decide winner soon. Both sides provide your final arguments now.

Btw, it's ok to put up threads at a faster rate, we don't need to wait for the current ones to finish.


Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Before I give my own analysis I have a question: How badly did Cade lose to Krayt in sabers?

First time they fought: Quite badly. Cade was flat overpowered and driven to his knees.


Second time: Not so badly. The fight took more time, including some off-page time, Cade avoided force-pushes (that shattered stone), blocked lightning, closed to melee, cut away to other stuff, cut back, they're exchanging saber blows, then Krayt grabbed his chest and hit him with a dark transfer kill.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, I'll post the next tournament battle and my analysis on this one soon.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sabers: Talon has stalemated Cade Skywalker on multiple occasions, who in turn was able to fight Darth Krayt pretty well in sabers, Krayt being a master swordsman. Meanwhile, Ventress has performed well against Anakin, kenobi, Grevious, and even managed to fight well against Mace Windu.

Edge: While Talon is certainly no scrub as a duelist, Ventress gets the edge due to having performed well against more impressive duelists. However, one thing to take into account here is the inconsistency of the TCW series. For example, Anakin has stalemated Ventress multiple times, yet also stalemated the likes of Dooku when they fought.

Force: Although she is usually beaten by Cade through force abilities, in one of her battles she was able to shatter and lift a large portion of a stone floor, in mid duel. As the Tartovsky feats Ventress performs are inconsistent to what she is usually shown to do in duels/combat, I will not be using them for the sake of this battle. That said, Ventress has caused an avalanche, simultaneously choked both Kenobi and Anakin (although she was in an uber rage mode, she isn't normally capable of such power), destroyed a celing, etc. Another factor to take into account is Talon's lightning, which although is possible to be blocked, could provide a significant advantage throughout the fight.

Edge: While Ventress definitely has more force feats, they aren't neccesarily more impressive than Talon's. That said, Talon's lightning would give her the edge in a pure force confrontation.

ares834
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Talon has stalemated Cade Skywalker on multiple occasions, who in turn was able to fight Darth Krayt pretty well in sabers, Krayt being a master swordsman.

Cade never fought "pretty well" against Krayt in sabers. In the final comic, they fight and we only see them clash sabers once. Unless the fight took place almost entirely off panel, the fight would have ended in seconds.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ah. FYI i was taking Q's word for it in terms of the saber analysis. Does anyone have scans of the actual battle?

Q99
Originally posted by ares834
Cade never fought "pretty well" against Krayt in sabers. In the final comic, they fight and we only see them clash sabers once. Unless the fight took place almost entirely off panel, the fight would have ended in seconds.

Even the first time he didn't fall that quickly, and he did physically dodge Krayt's force attacks, greater speed that he had before. Before the cut he was jumping through lightning at Krayt with his saber, after they were clashing saber, and, notably, they seemed to have moved location some! They were previously right next to a very tall pillar/building/wall/something, and when they cut back they had moved away from it.

So considering they just closed to saber range at the cut, and the fight moved some during the cut, yes, they were clashing in saber for some amount of time (could be 10-20 seconds, could be longer).

ares834
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ah. FYI i was taking Q's word for it in terms of the saber analysis. Does anyone have scans of the actual battle?

Here:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/18594626_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_-_War_6_004.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/18594627_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_-_War_6_005.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/18594628_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_-_War_6_009.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/18594629_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_-_War_6_010.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/18594630_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_-_War_6_011.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/18594631_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_-_War_6_012.jpg

The duel cuts out after the 2nd page to some stuff with the War and afterwards to Roan Fell before returning to the duel.

Q99
Yes. Note how they're by large structures in page 1 and 2 that tower over them, and after the gap, they're by the edge of the roof, and the thing Cade collapses against is clearly a much much smaller structure shorter than Krayt.

It is annoying that a good chunk of it is offscreen, but they managed to shift locations significantly during the fight.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Alright, so ultimately i've decided that Ventress is the winner of the battle. I hate to give her the win solely because of exposure, but Talon doesn't have any notable accolades for us to measure her power. So Ventress moves to the 2nd round in a close fight.

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