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Welcome to Match 4 of the Battlezone. This battle features two prodigiously powerful sith lords.

Count Dooku

Count Dooku was a jedi master-turned sith lord during the Rise of the Empire era. Born into a wealthy family on the planet Serenno, Dooku was taken into the jedi order during childhood and was instructed by Thame Cerulian. Eventually rising to the rank of jedi knight, he took Qui Gonn Jinn as his apprentice. Dooku had served the order for 70 long years, but after a brutal battle on Galidraan, he had lost his faith in the jedi order. Falling under the sway of Darth Sidious, Dooku abandoned the order and became Darth Tyranus.

Dooku forged the Confederacy of Independent Systems to combat the republic in the Clone Wars. During these wars he fought multiple battles against Anakin Skywalker, his most fierce adversary. He had also trained two warriors in the arts of lightsaber combat, those being Asajj Ventress and General Grevious. After a daring plan to capture the Supreme Chancellor, who was actually Darth Sidious, Dooku was forced into a confrontation with Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker aboard the Invisible Hand. Despite Dooku's prowess, he wasn't a match for Anakin after he was goaded into using his rage.

The 2nd Emperor's Wrath

The 2nd Emperor's Wrath was the personal executioner of the Sith Emperor, as well as the most feared sith in the galaxy sans the Emperor himself. Brought into the Sith Academy on Korriban prematurely by Overseer Tremel, the Wrath quickly excelled and surpassed his fellow students. There was one student, Vemrin, who was groomed to be Baras's new Sith Apprentice. As they were both tested by Darth Baras, the Wrath proved the stronger. He killed Vemrin in Naga Sadow's tomb on Korriban, becoming Baras's deadliest servant.

Throughout the Wrath's Apprenticeship, Baras has him destroy personal rivals, specifically Nomen Karr, and strike terror into the republic. Eventually, however, Baras began to fear that the Wrath was becoming too strong, and betrayed him, thinking he'd successfully killed the Wrath. Though the Wrath was contacted by the Emperor's Hands, and was formerly noticed as the Emperor's personal executioner. The Wrath then frees the Emperor on Voss, and tears down Baras's personal powerbase. As they are forced into a confrontation on Korriban, the Wrath defeats Baras, who was claiming to be the Emperor's Voice, and slew him. This made the Dark Council recognize the Wrath for who he was, and declared to never interfere with his business.

Terrain

The Terrain is an icy Tundra on Hoth.

Who wins?

Dooku beats whoever the hell this guy is.

Dooku SLAUGHTERHOUSE

Good to know that you two are basing your verdicts on, well, nothing

Basing on the fact that Emperor's wrath or whoever the **** that random Sith is has no feats that even compare with Dooku's lowest showings.

Why even bother responding if you have no idea who or what you are talking about?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Good to know that you two are basing your verdicts on, well, nothing
Dooku's skilled enough to fight Mace evenly. What does Wrath have to compete?

He has the amazing ability to be one more random TOR sith that is borderline featless.

Originally posted by carthage
He has the amazing ability to be one more random TOR sith that is borderline featless.
exactly lol

Totally accurate.

Here's his Respect Thread. Anyone need to bone up on the Wrath look in there.

I don't even know who half those people are, what have they done of note other than be disposable kills for some random TOR sith?

Also lol @ this guy being the second coming of Exar Kun


Dooku destroys him and then beats his corpse with his cane.

Originally posted by carthage
I don't even know who half those people are, what have they done of note other than be disposable kills for some random TOR sith?

Also lol @ this guy being the second coming of Exar Kun


Dooku destroys him and then beats his corpse with his cane.
you're hilarious dude

Well, may as well do this in order:

-Was hyped up (by other people/sith and what not) to be the "second coming of Exar Kun."

-Was able to defeat beast of Marka Ragnos (giant force resistant terentattek) while a mere acolyte

-Defeated an academy overseer while an acolyte

- Defeated the greatest teacher in the jedi order, as well as the best duelist said master ever trained, at the same time.

-Defeated Nomen Karr, who was capable of defeating one of the most dangerous sith assassins who ever lived.

-Right after this defeated Jaesa Willsaams, the prodigious apprentice of Master Karr.

-Defeated a giant, super advanced Wardroid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqSQPxuQnY 7:30

-Beat Darth Vengean, Darth Baras's master, and a dark council member. While the Wrath did have the aid of Lord Draahg, he was rendered useless halfway through the fight, and Draahg credits you for the kill.

-Defeated Darth Ekkage, noted as one of the greatest sith assassins who ever lived, and is a dark council member. While some fodder master helps the Wrath, Ekkage one shots a sith lord with a burst of lightning.

- Defeated the Emperor's Voice, an entity that Harbors the strength of the Emperor himself. Speaks for itself.

- Lord Draahg: The Sith who helped you kill Vengean earlier has been cybernetically enhanced, his skills and power have been increased significantly. Notable is that without the amp, Draahg is said to have, "a depth of power few others can claim."

-Defeated Darth Baras, master swordsman, (Stalemated Satele), master force user (subdued Darth Angral with lightning), capable of controlling an entity, force choked a dude from across the galaxy, pinpointed exactly where his lightsaber was from across the galaxy, etc. Despite his already mighty power, he's being amped by two entities, Sel Makor and some other entity (who's presumed to be Darth Traya). At this point Baras is considered "nigh indestructible."

So yeah, there ya go.

Featless lol.

edit: And by Across the Galaxy, I mean like opposite ends of the Galaxy. Like Dromund Kaas to Hoth.

Other than Baras and random disposable fodder. What does he have that at least proves he can contend with Dooku's broken hip? All of those quotes are borderline hyperbole not terribly different from "TEH BEST OV TEH ORDER" which Neph rails on, but can't seem to distinguish the similarity when spoken in the same context as TOR, case in point:







Call me a jackass as I honestly don't even know who this character is, but from the context of these rank and file adversaries, in what way does beating these no-name folk compare with what Dooku has done?

If he beat the Emperor's Voice, is he better than Vitiate?

Other than that, Wrath is skilled and powerful and all, but I see nothing to put him on Dooku's level.

He's just another game mechanic char with 10 trillion random quotes calling him skilled. Dooku not only slaughters he dumps his colostomy bag on his dead body.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If he beat the Emperor's Voice, is he better than Vitiate?

Other than that, Wrath is skilled and powerful and all, but I see nothing to put him on Dooku's level.

No. The Voice had spent a long period of time battling Sel Makor, a darkside deity capable of planet wide devastation, for control of his body and power. So Vitiate was likely weakened. Then Sel Makor possesses the Voice and the Wrath defeats it. Sel Makor is an entity who lacks a physical body, so I'm guessing it doesn't know much about lightsaber combat or fighting. It is still a good feat though.

K.

Also, the argument could be made that all of the TOR game characters are depicted stronger than they actually are since no gamer likes to play with weaker characters. So in reality, they might be around averge PT Council level here.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If he beat the Emperor's Voice, is he better than Vitiate?

Other than that, Wrath is skilled and powerful and all, but I see nothing to put him on Dooku's level.

1. Nah, the emperor had sel makor screwing In his head. But sel makor was actively trying to kill the wrath so...

2. If defeating an immensely powerful Sith Lord that's amped by two powerful entities can't put the wrath on dooku's level, I honestly don't know what does.

Because nothing the game mechanic Sith have done compares with what Dooku has accomplished? That and the fact that TOR and SWTOR shit out carbon copies of the exact same Sith with the exact same powers, exact same dubious feats, and near hyperbolic quotes make them not even remotely close to Dooku. Why did you pick this match out of curiosity?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Nah, the emperor had sel makor screwing In his head. But sel makor was actively trying to kill the wrath so...

2. If defeating an immensely powerful Sith Lord that's amped by two powerful entities can't put the wrath on dooku's level, I honestly don't know what does.
Dooku's raw Force feats vastly outdoes Baras' though.

I respect the Wrath (unlike some), but I'm giving this one to Tyranus.

Originally posted by carthage
Because nothing the game mechanic Sith have done compares with what Dooku has accomplished? That and the fact that TOR and SWTOR shit out carbon copies of the exact same Sith with the exact same powers, exact same dubious feats, and near hyperbolic quotes make them not even remotely close to Dooku. Why did you pick this match out of curiosity?

None of this has anything to do with their respective power levels. So what if TOR shits out carbon copies? Absolutely nothing to do with power. And the feats of baras are accomplished in comics and cutscenes, not game mechanics.

If ur gonna argue against the wrath, don't bring up all the wrong reasons.

I for one think that this is yet another good fight. Dooku is Dooku, but the Wrath has defeated some of the best Jedi and Sith of the time. This is a close fight at the least. But I think ultimately the Wrath has it.

Dooku takes this guy. His lightsaber abilities are stated to be one of the best in history, and he was even the superior to Mace, and able to hold his own against Yoda, which eclipses anything the Wrath has done. Next thread.


So has Dooku...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So has Dooku...

I..... know? Hence why I said it was a good fight.

I just think that ultimately the Wraths position as above even the Dark Council is a testament to his power and skill.

Also Dooku isn't superior to Windu.

Originally posted by carthage
Also lol @ this guy being the second coming of Exar Kun


Dooku destroys him and then beats his corpse with his cane.

http://giffiles.alphacoders.com/251/251.gif

Originally posted by Intrepid37
K.

Also, the argument could be made that all of the TOR game characters are depicted stronger than they actually are since no gamer likes to play with weaker characters. So in reality, they might be around averge PT Council level here.

You realize that the TOR devs confirmed that the PCs are specifically the strongest of their respective roles, right? Like the Sith Sorcerer is a peerless Force user or the Bounty Hunter is the best in the galaxy. Regulating them to mere council level because of both bias and ignorance is pretty loltastic.

"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Though Dooku has beat him in the past, it doesn't mean Windu never catches or surpasses him.

Proof he did catch up though?

Originally posted by Q99

"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Though Dooku has beat him in the past, it doesn't mean Windu never catches or surpasses him.


There's stronger evidence that Dooku became more powerful though.
"This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno:
Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith"

"I have become more powerful than any Jedi...even you"

"Powerful, you have become, Dooku. The dark side, I sense in you."

"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."

On the other hand the argument that Mace got stronger was due to the theory that he had developed Vaapad in between TPM and AOTCs. This is incorrect. Cin Draalig prevented both Anakin and Obi-Wan from studying Vaapad (not Juyo, Vaapad) when they began their blade studies. This suggests its been an established style since at least around TPM, if not around the time Kenobi began his studies.

"I have become more powerful than any Jedi...even you"

Note how he was wrong about that.

Darksiders often underestimate how strong Jedi can get.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Proof he did catch up though?

The Sidious fight, I'd say.


He did something there that Dooku could not.

With the Sidious fight, Mace was being amped by Palpatine (massive amp), and if I recall, but correct me if I'm wrong, Anakin's fear as well.

Originally posted by Q99
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi...even you"

Note how he was wrong about that.

Darksiders often underestimate how strong Jedi can get.

The point was that Yoda reaffirms that Dooku has become more powerful than when he left the Order.

"Powerful, you have become, Dooku. The dark side, I sense in you."




Mace is a better match up against Sidious because he's the embodiment of the Dark Side.

Also I don't think its impossible for Dooku to defeat Sidious in a sabers only match. (Eh maybe, kinda 50/50 on this)

50/50 that he can beat him? Or 50/50 that it's impossible?

My impression has been that every depiction has been with Dooku and Windu as equals. Dooku holds no advantage with his lightning nor his TK and in terms of sheer lightsaber combat the two are tied. Even if Dookus lightsaber skills are superior, Windu possesses Shatterpoint. Windu is the man who defeated Darth Sidious, I cannot see him losing to Count Dooku in a straight duel.

Lol @ Dooku beating Sidious in a lightsaber duel though.


As to this thread, the Warrior defeated the Beast of Marka Ragnos as an acolyte. The Beast was a Tarentatek dangerous enough that in 1300 years none had looked upon it and lived and powerful enough that it released a wave of darkside energy upon its death. The Warrior defeated such a beast as a mere acolyte.

Soon after the Warrior would defeat the greatest teacher the Jedi have and the most skilled duelist the man had ever taught, at the same time. Yonlach himself was powerful enough to casually wipe his students memory and send him to sleep with a wave of his hand. He's a legendary and extremely powerful Jedi Master. Again bare in mind that the Warrior was still only an apprentice.

Again shortly after that, the Warrior defeats Jedi Master Nomen Karr. Nomen Karr once "destroyed" Darth Ekkage and sent her to Belsavis prison. Ekkage is a Dark Council member who could one-shot Sith Lords and was "one of the greatest Sith assassins to ever live." As the Wrath, the Warrior would defeat her too. Anyway, this proves that Nomen Karr is a powerful Jedi Master. Impressively the Warrior defeats him 3 times in a row and then defeats his padawan as well. Karr taps into the darkside deeply in this duel, but it still can't help him faze the Warrior at all. The Warrior was still an apprentice at this time.

Then the Wrath defeats a super wardroid powered by, ridiculously, the ashes of the people killed by Darth Malaks bombardment of Taris. Whatever, apparently it boosts a power source 10 times as powerful as normal, so this droid is kind of a big deal.

The Wrath then defeats Darth Vengean, a Dark Council member who was prepping for the fight, Darth Ekkage, the Emperor's Voice possessed by Sel Makor and Lord Draahg. Draahg was powerful enough to one-shot Darth Vowrawn, a Dark Council member so he's pretty damn good.

And lastly they defeat Darth Baras, a Sith Lord powerful enough to cow the rest of the Dark Council into believing or going along with the lie that he housed the Emperors will and power. Baras was amped by Sel Makor and was considered nigh indestructible. He has a bunch of other feats listed on the first page.

At this point the Wrath is considered above the Council and they freely bow to his authority.

These are all pretty ****ing good victories and indicate that the Wrath is one of the greatest Sith in history. Definitely a good fight for the Count, but imo he takes it. Dooku is powerful, but I don't think he could cow the Dark Council like Baras did, nor defeat Sel Makor in the Voice.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
50/50 that he can beat him? Or 50/50 that it's impossible?

50/50 that its impossible.

No Sidious vs. Dooku is at worst 80:20 in favor of the Dark Lord.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So has Dooku...

Going back to this, the Wrath has defeated some of the greatest Sith of ALL time, such as Ekkage and Baras, as well as several Dark Council members or Dark Council level opponents. Dooku's best victories have been against Ventress, AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan and Sora Bulq. Impressive wins, but they don't really stack up.

Kenobi > Darth 'Fatass'

Nah.

Kenobi couldn't even beat Kreia, you think he's beating Baras?

Kenobi would kill Kriea (without the drain) and he'd beat Baras even easier.

He has already bested superior Sith Lords than either of them.

Oh another feat for the Wrath, one of his greatest ones:

On Hoth, Baras commissions you to find and kill a jedi named Master Wyellett. Wyellett was a jedi master who defeated Darth Baras during the war prior to the treaty, and took his lightsaber. Note that Satele Shan wasn't even able to defeat Baras. Furthermore, while Wyellett was on Hoth, he stated that his powers were greater than ever before, and: "Now, Wyellett has transcended the concerns of this galaxy and his powers are more realized than ever before."

Originally posted by ares834
Kenobi would kill Kriea (without the drain) and he'd beat Baras even easier.

He has already bested superior Sith Lords than either of them.

The Battlezone seems to think differently.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Oh another feat for the Wrath, one of his greatest ones:

On Hoth, Baras commissions you to find and kill a jedi named Master Wyellett. Wyellett was a jedi master who defeated Darth Baras during the war prior to the treaty, and took his lightsaber. Note that Satele Shan wasn't even able to defeat Baras. Furthermore, while Wyellett was on Hoth, he stated that his powers were greater than ever before, and: "Now, Wyellett has transcended the concerns of this galaxy and his powers are more realized than ever before."

Oh yeah, that guy. You need to be super dark side and super stupid to kill him iirc.

Yeah, your battle with the apprentice started making the cavern collapse, and if ur dark side, you still try to kill wyellett anyways. what a dumbass. But yeah, i'm considering empire protags as dark, republic protags as light, etc.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Note that Satele Shan wasn't even able to defeat Baras.



They clashed sabers once and in a comic that has since been contradicted several times.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Battlezone seems to think differently.

Good for them.

Originally posted by ares834

They clashed sabers once and in a comic that has since been contradicted several times.


really? I've heard that there were two instances in which Baras and Shan fought: One being a short battle, and one being longer.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
really? I've heard that there were two instances in which Baras and Shan fought: One being a short battle, and one being longer.

In either fight they only cross their sabers once.

That PT bias.

That TOR bias.

Originally posted by ares834
In either fight they only cross their sabers once.

First fight:
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/114.jpg
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/215.jpg
Second fight:
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/316.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Going back to this, the Wrath has defeated some of the greatest Sith of ALL time, such as Ekkage and Baras, as well as several Dark Council members or Dark Council level opponents. Dooku's best victories have been against Ventress, AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan and Sora Bulq. Impressive wins, but they don't really stack up.

Lol you really don't think Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress aren't Dark Council level?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Going back to this, the Wrath has defeated some of the greatest Sith of ALL time, such as Ekkage and Baras, as well as several Dark Council members or Dark Council level opponents. Dooku's best victories have been against Ventress, AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan and Sora Bulq. Impressive wins, but they don't really stack up.
AotC Anakin: Has greater speed and TK then the Hero of Tython (CW Mini is C-Canon)
Ventress: Dueled evenly with Mace and Mace/Anakin, great TK and speed
Obi-Wan: The best Soresu master in history
Sora Bulq: Stated one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in Jedi HISTORY
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111126460/3604975-0224317469-sorab.png

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
AotC Anakin: Has greater speed and TK then Revan (CW Mini is C-Canon)



Revan's got good TK, but Anakin's thrown around giant ships and blown up a battle station with TK!!!

Is Anakin having good TK really a point of contention? That's one of the skills that he's always been pretty beastly as, and one that even as Vader pretty much no one disputes. And along the way he's shown a few instances of going beyond what his current skill level would indicate he should be able to do, mostly due to his great potential (Force-users have, after all, been shown to do some pretty insane stuff when under stress, especially while younger, so it's not so out of place).

And that's why I'm okay with the CW mini feats, because I simply don't find them as out of line with what would be expected of these characters (as seems to be a somewhat popular viewpoint).

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol you really don't think Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress aren't Dark Council level?

Double negative.

Yes, though. Recall that two Dark Council members fighting demolished the largest building on Dromund Kaas. With people like Jadus, Nyriss, Nox, Thanaton, Marr, Baras etc on there its clear the level of Sith is quite high. I mean, Ventress isn't even a real Sith, she can't even use Force Lightning. The Council has held some of the greatest Sith ever.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
AotC Anakin: Has greater speed and TK then the Hero of Tython (CW Mini is C-Canon)
Ventress: Dueled evenly with Mace and Mace/Anakin, great TK and speed
Obi-Wan: The best Soresu master in history
Sora Bulq: Stated one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in Jedi HISTORY
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111126460/3604975-0224317469-sorab.png

AotC Anakin: Are you ****ing kidding me?
Ventress: I don't think she did duel evenly with Mace, that's retarded.
Obi-Wan: No, he isn't.
Sora Bulq: Not as impressive as being one of the greatest Sith Assassins in history.

You're right about Ventress, Mace said outright that he could kill her at any time before she ran away.

Thanks.

Right in the first panel in fact, dunno if you've seen the actual images

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/1/322/321317/thumb_620x2000/Mace_Windu_vs_Asajj_Ventress_part_3.JPG

carthage, the one time you try to provide scans, you are wrong :
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/mace_n10.jpg

And yet Windu casually kicked her ass in his scan. Windu specifically mocks the idea of them being equals.

Not my fault CW writers are semi-retarded and can't bridge inconsistencies in their writing.

She even acknowledged she was no match for him.

So she runs from a fight Mace jumps off the cliff to go after he, and she runs away again.

Yeah Ant, Mace was totally pushed to the limit!

To be fair though the fact Ventress didn't die outright proves her skill though.

In the first panel, he is seen almost killed.
In the last panel, Ventress mocks Mace's power and easily holds his entire strength off with A arm. Just ONE arm.

She did a downward swipe and he did a backflip to avoid it.

And in the second panel she's clearly running away, and deflecting him as he's falling. She was already running.

C-Canon.


You do know I was trolling/joking with you...right? Calm yourself, dirty boy.

He's confirmed one of the best, so name someone whos better.

My bad, Darth Maul who was "One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo. As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order." Ventress was the one who I am referring too:
http://www.dk.co.uk/static/spreads/all/4/9/9781409374794L_003.jpg

Your depiction of a fight is outruled by a canonical source.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
C-Canon.

C-Canon that its exaggerated too.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You do know I was trolling/joking with you...right? Calm yourself, dirty boy.

I know.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's confirmed one of the best, so name someone whos better.

Yoda.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
My bad, Darth Maul who was "One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo. As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order."

Source?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ventress was the one who I am referring too:
http://www.dk.co.uk/static/spreads/all/4/9/9781409374794L_003.jpg

http://qcvoices.qwriting.qc.cuny.edu/files/2013/03/sokka.gif

Ventress isn't even a Sith.

Anyway thats only referring to the CW.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your depiction of a fight is outruled by a canonical source.

Which canonical source?

You're interpretation of what the source is saying is overruled by the people in the comic saying shes no match for him.

Anyone that can withstand basic force pushes and chokes, is probably better than Kenobi.

Then why do you have to yell at me? I'm correctly writing the legal papers for our marriage. Expect some documents you have to sign later before our ceremony.
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/meme-f10.png

Well played...

Star Wars Fact File 01

Star Wars Fact File 108

It states Mace had to go all out on her.

And he states that he is superior and can kill her at any time, and she even agrees and runs.

Why are you disputing that? Do you have a thing for Ventress like you have a thing for Thanaton and Revan, weirdo.

Ant is desperate

Do you not realize, Ventress is one of my least favorite characters, and Mace is one of my favorites? I am not desperate. Mace's opinion is outruled by the factfile. Simple.

Nothing in their fight suggests that, though. But nice try!

Factfile>Your thoughts on the fight.

What actually happened in the fight > stupid inconsistent secondary sources.

The original source should be believed foremost. The Factfile is just an mistaken interpretation.

Nope. Because your thoughts on the fight are mere speculation, while the factfiles tell you what really did happen in the fight.

Except that at no point is Windu struggling in that match, she even ran from him twice. As in she was trying to avoid him by using her legs to get away from him.

Use common sense bro, I know that's hard for you.

Mace is seen struggling in that fight in two different panels. Just because he says he can kill Ventress at any time, does't mean it's true! Hell, Ventress even mocks his power.

I don't see how backflipping over someones strikes = is having trouble with her. Thats like the opposite of that. Maybe he was just 'using all his skills' to show off.

Also, Ventress could have been sincere about his power.

Shes grinning, and holding him off with one arm, and look at Mace's face while doing such. He's like enraged.

She says that she wanted to fight him because he's a challenge. Shes grinning because he is powerful.

And also grinning because she can hold her own against him...with one arm.
However, we are getting way off topic now.

True.

LOL@ writing off Ventress because Mace says she is no match for him when canon sources outright states the opposite.

Ventress agrees with him though and runs away.

Plus this is entirely consistent with her others showings and general level of ability.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
LOL@ writing off Ventress because Mace says she is no match for him when canon sources outright states the opposite.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress agrees with him though and runs away.

Plus this is entirely consistent with her others showings and general level of ability.
No, giving Mace a good fight is exactly what is consistent. She troubles Anakin several times through TCW, who is more or less Mace's equal with a blade, and in the CWC, she was even with Anakin, who challenged Dooku. She's also generally even with Kenobi, who has sparred evenly with Anakin and is only marginally below Mace as a swordsman, so no, she is perfectly capable of accomplishing the feat.

She also gets rather easily defeated or handled by Dooku, who Mace is closer to than Anakin is close to him. Ventress also hasn't ever really been equal to CW Anakin imo. And she barely defeated Grievous.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She also gets rather easily defeated or handled by Dooku, who Mace is closer to than Anakin is close to him. Ventress also hasn't ever really been equal to CW Anakin imo. And she barely defeated Grievous.
Dooku only casually beat her in lightsaber dueling in the CWC. In TCW, he only easily beats her through Force usage, not through lightsaber dueling.

Not really:

PUclUEMosm0

He kicks her across the room, evades her without a lightsaber, pushes her away with one hand then when they lock blades he pushes her to her knees. All while fending off Savage at the same time. When they're alone he's constantly forcing her back.

She managed to fend him off alone with a lightsaber before he overwhelmed her through telekinesis.

But the fact is that her consistent showings are challenging Mace, challenging Anakin, challenging Obi-Wan, and fighting even with Anakin in the CWC who challenged Dooku. Mace, or Dooku or Anakin for that matter, have no showings to support a stomp of her in lightsaber dueling.

She was near constantly retreating.

I didn't suggest she'd get stomped against those guys. All I've said is that shes not equal to them, as Ant said she was Maces equal. Mace didn't stomp her, but she agreed she was no match for him and retreated after barely a few blows were exchanged.

I never said that. Dueling evenly=/=equals

But she didn't duel evenly with him, hence why she ran away.

Ventress had no interest in dueling Mace either. She never had the intent of killing him. When she killed one of the other Jedi, her goal was achieved, and she only needed to get away after that, which is why she quickly retreated.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress had no interest in dueling Mace either.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3462162-mace+ventress+2.jpg

That's smack talk. You think she desired to fight him if she herself thinks she's no match?

She only realises shes no match during the fight. She wanted to kill Mace but the fight revealed that she had no hope of doing that.

She was being sarcastic when she says "Oh, I have no doubt"

Nah, she says ''Oh, I have no doubt''. It's called teasing him (lol). In TCW, the only time I remember her running from a fight was against Anakin in S5 when she had like, metal sticks as weapons. Fighting Mace for a prolonged amount of time was never an option.

Sarcasm? She jumps off a cliff to get away from him. The fact that she retreats is certainly indicative that she was sincerely agreeing that she was no match for him.

Hell, the fourth panel has Windu forcing her to her knees.

Mace also had the advantage as he surprised her by that jump he made.

And in the last panel on the last page, she smiles as she blocks him and says "powerful." THAT is sarcasm.

She didn't look surprised to me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And in the last panel on the last page, she smiles as she blocks him and says "powerful." THAT is sarcasm.

Thats not the last panel, thats the first panel of their fight.

Windu jumps at her from behind, they fight then she runs away. Thats how the fight goes.

Point is, she's not his equal, but she possesses the ability to pressure him.

Neph is completely right in his interpretation of the ventress windu mini fight. The people disagreeing with him r wrong. That is all.

LOL that was pretty funny

Anyway, back to the topic?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, may as well do this in order:

-Was hyped up (by other people/sith and what not) to be the "second coming of Exar Kun."

-Was able to defeat beast of Marka Ragnos (giant force resistant terentattek) while a mere acolyte

-Defeated an academy overseer while an acolyte

- Defeated the greatest teacher in the jedi order, as well as the best duelist said master ever trained, at the same time.

-Defeated Nomen Karr, who was capable of defeating one of the most dangerous sith assassins who ever lived.

-Right after this defeated Jaesa Willsaams, the prodigious apprentice of Master Karr.

-Defeated a giant, super advanced Wardroid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqSQPxuQnY 7:30

-Beat Darth Vengean, Darth Baras's master, and a dark council member. While the Wrath did have the aid of Lord Draahg, he was rendered useless halfway through the fight, and Draahg credits you for the kill.

-Defeated Darth Ekkage, noted as one of the greatest sith assassins who ever lived, and is a dark council member. While some fodder master helps the Wrath, Ekkage one shots a sith lord with a burst of lightning.

- Defeated the Emperor's Voice, an entity that Harbors the strength of the Emperor himself. Speaks for itself.

- Lord Draahg: The Sith who helped you kill Vengean earlier has been cybernetically enhanced, his skills and power have been increased significantly. Notable is that without the amp, Draahg is said to have, "a depth of power few others can claim."

-Defeated Darth Baras, master swordsman, (Stalemated Satele), master force user (subdued Darth Angral with lightning), capable of controlling an entity, force choked a dude from across the galaxy, pinpointed exactly where his lightsaber was from across the galaxy, etc. Despite his already mighty power, he's being amped by two entities, Sel Makor and some other entity (who's presumed to be Darth Traya). At this point Baras is considered "nigh indestructible."

So yeah, there ya go.
Good to know that you have done your homework already.

Emperor's Wrath # 2 represents finest warrior of the Empire which is really really big.

It shall be kept in mind that the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire set harshest standards known for development of Sith. To spectacularly perform in such a setting of cutthroat competition is a testament to one's extraordinary abilities.

As good as Count Dooku is, he haven't been tested in ways like Emperor's Wrath # 2 have been or Sith Lords of the reconstituted Sith Empire have been in general. Yes, Dooku did perform well against Yoda but the latter always had soft corner for his former student and did not do his best to overcome his former student. Dooku also benefitted from the setting and managed to preoccupy Yoda with the effort to save Anakin and Obi-Wan; in this manner, Dooku found the chance to escape.

Emperor's Wrath # 2 have extremely solid combat victories under his belt, superior combat record then good Count. He should win.

I defeated Ekkage with my Warrior yesterday. The Wrath notes that Ekkage is the greatest warrior he's ever faced, meaning including Vengean, Nomen Karr and Wyellett. Her codex entry notes that Ekkage is not just one of the greatest Sith Assassins ever but also:

"Many believe Darth Ekkage was as powerful a weapon as the Sith have ever had, and that their victory over the Republic would have been completed long ago if Ekkage had not been captured. But there are also many within the Sith who fear her--realizing that they could just as easily be her next target."

anymore thoughts on this battle? Haven't been any arguments for dooku on this entire page.

There hasn't been many on topic arguments at all, lol.

True. The only person who's really constructed an argument in Dooku's favor is Lord Stark, most of the others either don't know who the wrath is or just say, "lol he's dooku," so...

Props to Stark for that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Double negative.

Yes, though. Recall that two Dark Council members fighting demolished the largest building on Dromund Kaas. With people like Jadus, Nyriss, Nox, Thanaton, Marr, Baras etc on there its clear the level of Sith is quite high. I mean, Ventress isn't even a real Sith, she can't even use Force Lightning. The Council has held some of the greatest Sith ever.


That's the absolute top tier of the Council. People like Vowrawn and Xedrix would get murdered by Ventress. I think if Tyranus lived during the TOR timeline he'd sit on the Council and likely get Ventress on there as well.

Dooku would, for sure. I'm not sure about Ventress though. Give her some real Sith training and some extra years and perhaps. She'd also need to become good at responsibilities and get influence and shit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku would, for sure. I'm not sure about Ventress though. Give her some real Sith training and some extra years and perhaps. She'd also need to become good at responsibilities and get influence and shit.

All of which Tyranus would give her. Then he'd hold two seats on the Council. Sounds like exactly the kind of thing Dooku would do.

I mean, is there really a mid tier level for the dark council? Or would that be like, Ravage and Mortis?

Yeah, Vengean and Hadra and shit.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
All of which Tyranus would give her. Then he'd hold two seats on the Council. Sounds like exactly the kind of thing Dooku would do.

Yeah, but my point stands that regular old Ventress shouldn't be on the Council.

This thread seems to be rather inconclusive. No-one really knows the Wrath enough to debate this well and the Wrath lacks definitive Force feats to compare to Dooku's. The only one I can recall is him obliterating a thick blast door with help from a Jedi. Then again, he's defeated many extremely powerful Jedi and Sith, some of which with excellent Force feats.

Pretty sure he's also pulled down some giant crate thing. But yeah I see what ur saying.

On what planet, I can find it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUydrvpExHI

skip to 5:25

Hmm, pretty cool. It reminds me of that Kenobi feat where he drops the thing on the Magnadroids, only bigger and better.

Edit: Ahahaha 1.20, Force B*tchslap.