Hero of Tython vs Darth Vader

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Nephthys
They fight on Bespin.

DarthAnt66
Hero takes this, barely.

carthage
Vader in a good fight.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Going with Hero in a close fight.

Nephthys
Obviously I too think the Hero wins.

carthage
I'm gonna disagree. While Hero undoubtedly possesses superior mobility and possibly agility (Vader's speed feats are inconsistent), Vader outclasses him in just about every area. Vader has crushed a cathedral, smashed massive droids with TK, brought down an X wing in mid flight, and smashed through massive walls and durasteel doors. I don't think Hero's TK feats match that, at least not in any similar capacity.

Hero's dueling feats are probably on par with Vader though, even though Vader has taken out tons more Jedi than HoT. Vader has superior strength he's broken durasteel, casually lifts people up, and has only been broken by his own son.

carthage
Tbf though as Vader has been inconvenienced by opponents of lesser merit than HoT notably DW, Sha Koon, and others his victory is by no means for a massive majority maybe 5.5/6/10

HoT's feats outweigh Luke in ROTJ by a significant marjin imo.

Nephthys

NewGuy01
I'm going with Vader.

carthage
He did it on a nexus, whereas Vader's TK feats are all bereft of one. If HoT takes a TK wave he's gonna take some mid-level injuries or go flying. Not a good analogy, in my opinion.

Nephthys

DarthAnt66
But the Hero's energy was also ''dissipated'' and Scourge said that the Emperor 'will recover swiftly?. Then once you kill him, it says "The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you."

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
But the Hero's energy was also ''dissipated''

Which only makes it more impressive that the Hero beat him, no? wink

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
and Scourge said that the Emperor 'will recover swiftly?.

Indeed, which is Scourge is saying they had to get to him fast, when he was still weakened.

DarthAnt66
Which is why I put Hero>Vader.

How was he still weakened? In the lightside ending, you go and save your friends, giving him ample time to regain his strength...especially since it's on a nexus.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How was he still weakened? In the lightside ending, you go and save your friends, giving him ample time to regain his strength...especially since it's on a nexus.

Because he was still weakened. Even if you go to save your friends the quest text still says that he's weakened. Vitiate was VERY weak after his ritual failed. He recovered, but not nearly to full strength even in the Lightside version.

Also, if you really think that Vitiate had completely recovered and had the nexus yet still lost to the HoT then the Hero should utterly stomp Vader.

DarthAnt66
Okay, I'll take your word if you provide a quote.

Or just makes Vitiate look even worse. wink

DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoFNJ7UophU
9:53 "You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength, we are fortunate to be alive."

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Okay, I'll take your word if you provide a quote.

Or just makes Vitiate look even worse. wink

Which quote? If you mean the quest text, its the one I posted before. It doesn't change throughout the whole mission, until Vitiates defeat.

Nah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoFNJ7UophU
9:53 "You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength, we are fortunate to be alive."

He gathered some of his strength, he did not gather it completely. The only difference it causes is that Vitiate summons some clones at the start of the fight to attack you if you waste time. That's it, one Force attacks difference.

Considering the entire time the invasion of Dromund Kaas took, probably several hours, I doubt that the HoT spending 2-5 minutes saving someone was that significant.

Intrepid37
Hero. Vader's really powerful though, it should be a decent fight.

carthage
He's ok when he isn't bordering N cannon.

Other than maneuverability Vader has him beat in most other categories, and he doesn't possess some other power to bridge the gap.

DarthAnt66
What does it say once hes defeated?


Ah okay, thanks for that info.

Nephthys
Exactly what you posted before:

"The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you. Now you must decide his ultimate fate.

Speak with the defeated Emperor in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas."

Emperordmb
Vader impresses me more and has an environmental advantage here. He takes this one.

Lord Stark
Going with the Hero of Tython. The dude is likely the greatest Soresu master the galaxy has ever scene, and we all know how Vader does against Soresu. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/wink.gif

Intrepid37
Hero practices Soresu?

Zett
Vader, in my opinion HoT is overrated.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Going with the Hero of Tython. The dude is likely the greatest Soresu master the galaxy has ever scene, and we all know how Vader does against Soresu. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/wink.gif

I lol'd.

NewGuy01
The Hero's only real strength feat that I can recall is pushing through Vitiate's lightning, but it can be assumed he's physically potent enough to counter Vader's blows with at least significant efficiency. He's still at a disadvantage when comparing strength no matter how you look at it though, Vader has torn apart huge slabs of durasteel bare handed, overpowered most opponents he's faced with raw strength, and you get the idea from there.

Vader has formed shields out of his blade, moved invisibly fast, produced 4 afterimages behind his blade, and has fought in a blur. Conversely, the Hero has on more than one occasion cut down elite Sith Warriors and Assassins before they could even react, which is always a superb feat. All-in-all, the Hero should be more than capable of keeping up with Vader, though I'd declare Darth the faster of the two as well.

As far as durability and endurance goes, the Hero withstood palpable amounts of damage from Vitiate's Force Storm before going down, and likely endured significant damage and continued fighting in their final battle. Vader, however, outstrips him here too. The guy tanks lightsaber strikes and stabs mid-battle, loses limbs and keeps fighting, tanks bomb blasts at point blank range, not to mention that he's already protected by dark armor....

So basically, it's evident that while the Hero's physical capabilities are highly advanced, Vader's are significantly greater.

Now let's look at them in terms of skill. The Hero has outfought many saber prodigies. The first example being Praven, who outdueled one fo the Jedi's best swordsmen in battle, and then defeated another Sith who was considered his superior, and he did it when he was amped, too. He then goes on to outduel Darth Angral, who is Dark Council Level and easily outfought a Jedi Councillor, and he gains significantly from then on as a swordsman. Vader, however, is just as impressive. He's taken on a strike team of seven Jedi Masters and nearly killed them all primarily through saber prowess, then continued to outduel fighters like An'ya Kuro, Galen Marek, and Obi-Wan Kenobi--All of which are legendary fighters who were amongst the best of the day. Not only that, but he also gains considerably from then to his peak. Both of them use the same primary styles, (Djem So/Soresu) but Vader also incorporates heavy Makashi elements as well, and has a more unorthodox style. I could see giving the Hero the edge in terms of skill due to the unknown amount of skill he gained from Act 2 to Act 3, (Though we do know that by Act 3 he was good enough to cut down the Imperial Guard, something someone on Nyriss's level didn't even consider a possibility.) but in the end Vader's feats of skill are just as good as his are.

The final thing to consider, which is Force Powers, is honestly fairly obvious. While Vitiate notes that the Hero harnesses immense power that he can't fully control, Vader is also the Chosen One--His raw power is also absolutely immense on the same scale. As for feats with the Force, yeah, the Hero has collapsed ceilings and forced bridges to close, but Vader has collapsed cathedrals, blasted away dozens of fighters, ripped down huge contraptions, busted huge droids, and more. Vader definitely holds an advantage as a Force Wielder as well, both in power and his application of it.

In the end, the Hero is extremely powerful--The best Jedi of his day, and someone capable of defeating the guy who downed Revan. However, in a side by side comparison, it's really hard to give him the advantage over Vader--Because he hasn't really accomplished anything that Vader hasn't done better.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because he hasn't really accomplished anything that Vader hasn't done better.

Oh really? erm

PTforthewin
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Going with the Hero of Tython. The dude is likely the greatest Soresu master the galaxy has ever scene, and we all know how Vader does against Soresu. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/wink.gif no, obi wan was the greatest soresu master, he was able to defeat the chosen one

The Merchant
Vader IMO is too much of a beast.

Based
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Hero practices Soresu?

He has to be joking because lightsaber forms are a gameplay choice.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Based
He has to be joking because lightsaber forms are a gameplay choice.

Soresu is the Guardian form, IIRC.

In any case, HoT stomps. Was a better swordsman in an age when millions of Jedi fought millions of Sith, had tons of great feats and kills under her belt, and isn't a whiny sand-hating tool.

DarthAnt66
Quality>Quantity.

Stealth Moose
Right, but the odds of having greater quality increase with greater quantity, for the same reason why there will be better swordsmen back during the Crusades than during the American Revolution. The PT Jedi had a golden age of mostly adopting Niman, not fighting any Sith, and dying en masse against robots and wanna-be Dark Jedi. That Anakin is "great among them" doesn't impress me in the slightest, while noobie HoT steps on Tython and is very quickly recognized as the penultimate saber master and badass.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Hero practices Soresu?

In cutscenes the HoT consistently uses one blade, and acts as though his second blade isn't there. So canonically he's likely a Jedi Guardian who's form of choice is Soresu.

Nephthys
Thats also true for all the classes btw. They only ever use a single weapon in cutscenes.

Hell, I've had my Consular pull a single-bladed lightsaber out of her ass in a cutscene rather than use her double-bladed one at her hip.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quality>Quantity.

Not necessarily. The Hero routinely fights through hordes of Sith and such opponents. Defeating 6 Sith Warriors at the same time would be at least equal to defeating a legendary Master IMO, as a hypothetical example.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, but the odds of having greater quality increase with greater quantity, for the same reason why there will be better swordsmen back during the Crusades than during the American Revolution. The PT Jedi had a golden age of mostly adopting Niman, not fighting any Sith, and dying en masse against robots and wanna-be Dark Jedi. That Anakin is "great among them" doesn't impress me in the slightest, while noobie HoT steps on Tython and is very quickly recognized as the penultimate saber master and badass.

Soresu was by far the most prominent form in both TOR and PT eras dude. Niman wasn't uncommon, but most Jedi did not adopt it.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Soresu was by far the most prominent form in both TOR and PT eras dude. Niman wasn't uncommon, but most Jedi did not adopt it.

Actually, in a twisted way you're right.

Dueling forms were more common, because the individuals fought for their lives more often against Force using swordsmen/women, because Soresu was built to combat prevalent blaster usage, and because Niman was previously a master's form, not a watered-down diplomat's form.

Fightsaber and Shatterpoint among other things noted that the majority of the Jedi who fought (and died) at Geonosis were Niman users. Other EU sources corroborate that the Jedi were mostly peacekeepers and diplomats, not warriors. We only see a handful of good Soresu users in the PT (Obi, Luminara, and Barriss, IIRC), and the users of advanced forms like Makashi and Juyo/Vaapad are even fewer.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats also true for all the classes btw. They only ever use a single weapon in cutscenes.

Hell, I've had my Consular pull a single-bladed lightsaber out of her ass in a cutscene rather than use her double-bladed one at her hip.


Precisely. The single bladed seems to be the canon choice. But yeah the HoT has Shien, Soresu, and Shi-Cho methinks.

Stealth Moose
Shi-Cho is canon for all forms of JK.

Nephthys

Stealth Moose
Precision, grace and elegance are Makashi codewords, but the rest sounds Ataru.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, in a twisted way you're right.

Dueling forms were more common, because the individuals fought for their lives more often against Force using swordsmen/women, because Soresu was built to combat prevalent blaster usage, and because Niman was previously a master's form, not a watered-down diplomat's form.

Fightsaber and Shatterpoint among other things noted that the majority of the Jedi who fought (and died) at Geonosis were Niman users. Other EU sources corroborate that the Jedi were mostly peacekeepers and diplomats, not warriors. We only see a handful of good Soresu users in the PT (Obi, Luminara, and Barriss, IIRC), and the users of advanced forms like Makashi and Juyo/Vaapad are even fewer.

Obi-Wan says Soresu is the most commonly adopted form of lightsaber combat among Jedi when Mace compliments his skills.

Stealth Moose
You may be right, I don't recall directly. However, if that is true, then it stands to reason the PT Jedi as a whole have a serious weakness: a majority of them use either Niman or Soresu, neither of which is worth a damn for offensive dueling.

Leading back to the topic itself, if HoT is the bee's knees in his martial era, and Skywalker is likewise in his watered down, weak era, which is more impressive in context?

Naturally, the one in the films, I get it.

NewGuy01
1. Pretty sure Ataru is second to Soresu in popularity during the PT, despite it's weakness against multiple opponents, as it's the preferred form of almost all known notable Jedi during the period. There are a good chunk of Niman users though, yeah.

2. Anakin is one of the most skilled and powerful Jedi in history according to RotS, and so are a handful of the PT's Jedi. I fail to see the logic behind your point.

Stealth Moose
Uh, first off, that absolute statement requires absolute proof. Second, TOR came well after the movies came out, so a C-canon source that operates in ignorance of newer material would be about as reliable as older G-canon material over newer G-canon material.

NewGuy01
So, basically you're saying the same thing applies to statements about Marka Ragnos or Exar Kun, as they're even older than the films.

Lord Stark

ares834
Originally posted by Lord Stark
but his mains were likely Shien and Soresu

Based on? I mean, hell, in the game you can spec your character to "master" different lightsaber forms.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by ares834
Based on? I mean, hell, in the game you can spec your character to "master" different lightsaber forms.

Jedi Guardian is probably the canon form given that in cutscenes the HoT ignores the fact that he has a second saber at his him always. Guardian lightsaber forms are Soresu, Shien, and Shi-Cho.

ares834
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Jedi Guardian is probably the canon form given that in cutscenes the HoT ignores the fact that he has a second saber at his him always.

Guardian lightsaber forms are Soresu, Shien, and Shi-Cho.

Or he is a Sentinel that has either deactivated his lightsaber or only uses one.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by ares834
Or he is a Sentinel that has either deactivated his lightsaber or only uses one.


No. There are scenes where he's disarmed, and rather than go for his second saber fights over retrieving his first. I'd rather assume that the Hero of Tython uses one saber than assume he's a retard. All the fights in cutscenes are coded for one saber bro.

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