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There's been a lot of debate about what the fate of the Expanded Universe would be now that the new trilogy is coming out, and here's the answer!

From StarWars.com:


With a video:
VUm0Lo6DL-E

So that video is the last appearance of Revan, ever? **** this shit!
How the hell is Zaalbar even on the Star Forge fighting Malak?

*Actually they are not non-canon, that title really no longer exists, rather they now all old EU is under the "Legends" banner.

^Where are you getting that? I read it as all EU except the post ROTJ stuff is n-canon.

Welp, we knew this was coming. Still kinda sad to see it all go.

As for this nu-EU, they are starting it with three books. A Tarkin novel by Luceno, a Vader/Palpatine novel by Kemp, and a Rebels novel by JJM.

We should discuss SWVF canon policy in light of this. I suggested in the Battle Bar that novelisations be used as movie surrogates to fill up the gap since Legends are a stand alone continuity finally.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*Actually they are not non-canon, that title really no longer exists, rather they now all old EU is under the "Legends" banner.
http://starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page.html
"Demand for past tales of the Expanded Universe will keep them in print, presented under the new Legends banner."

Indeed. Now there's "Legends" Star Wars and non-Legends star wars.


Non-legends consisting of the movies, TCW, and, I can only assume, the Holiday Special.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page.html
"Demand for past tales of the Expanded Universe will keep them in print, presented under the new Legends banner."

So if it's being kept in print and creators still have full access to it then I take it we'll still get novels, comics etc, in the Legends setting, especially set post-Crucible? Just published under a new heading?

Splendid.

I think you're being a little optimistic. The past tales will be kept in print, and creators of the new canon will get to draw from elements of the old canon, but I wouldn't be very optimistic about there being new material under the Legends banner.

More likely they will want to maximise resources in fleshing out the new continuity. At best we'll get some stuff, but far less of it, and released far lass frequently.

As it is, they are using their staple EU writers to kick this off.

Originally posted by ares834
Welp, we knew this was coming. Still kinda sad to see it all go.

As for this nu-EU, they are starting it with three books. A Tarkin novel by Luceno, a Vader/Palpatine novel by Kemp, and a Rebels novel by JJM. sad? Just sad? THIS IS A MOTHER****INH STARWARS CATASTROPHE. After 35 years NONE of the EU is canon? Exactly how is pre- Prequal era Non canon? How is it affecting rebels, and The new upcoming trilogy? I can't believe it has all gone to waist.

Where the versus forum is concerned, I believe that we should still be able to use all EU material freely, as we do now. The thread starter(s) will simply have to begin specifying "Legends version"(or w/e) if their intent is for the EU material to be used. That is also the same basic principal we use in the CBvF, what with the company-wide reboots every few years.

...Just my opinion.

That's pretty much the plan. After all, Legends is still an official product, just a different one.

Originally posted by PTforthewin
sad? Just sad? THIS IS A MOTHER****INH STARWARS CATASTROPHE. After 35 years NONE of the EU is canon? Exactly how is pre- Prequal era Non canon? How is it affecting rebels, and The new upcoming trilogy? I can't believe it has all gone to waist. Considering at least half of it was bad and the other half running the gamut from good to meh, it's not much of a "waist".

For every Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, you had 10 of Revan. The vast majority of the EU ranged from suck to meh.

Star Wars has been ruined. Those people at LucasFilm, like Jennifer Heddle, Dave Filoni, Kathleen Kennedy are NOT Star Wars fans. They are assholes who are only interested in making money.

...Again, most of the EU sucked anyway. And you're still free to enjoy the stuff that didn't.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...Again, most of the EU sucked anyway. And you're still free to enjoy the stuff that didn't.
Non-EU stuff kinda sucks, though.

Some of the EU I'd put on par with the movies, but most of it is nowhere close. Not saying Disney's new shit will necessarily be any better, but them's the breaks.

I'm still gonna be loving my KotOR, and Jedi Outcast, and those few novels that didn't sound like fanfiction. Canon be damned.

The movies are kind of lame though. Episodes I and II were outright bad.

Problem is that no matter how much the movies or parts of them sucked, a lot of the EU sucked a lot more.

Yes, but there's a lot more EU stuff than there are movies, which compensates for the EU stuff that sucks.

1/2 of the movies sucked, but I'd say more than 1/2 the EU sucked. The films have a better track record, proportionally.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
1/2 of the movies sucked, but I'd say more than 1/2 the EU sucked. The films have a better track record, proportionally.



And this is from a twisted, sycophantic RedLetterMedia mentality. A more realistic assessment is that 1/4 to 1/3 of the movies sucked and most of the EU sucked.

6 divided by 1/4? That's some sort of wizard fraction right there.

You've never heard of a fourth or a third, Canadian?

1/4 means that 1,5 movies out of the 6 sucks.

Correct. Parts of one sucked, as did parts of another. Put 'em together and you have an entire movie or so worth of fail.

Which 1/2 movie was good?

I'm guessing it's AOTC.

Of the prequels, only TPM is the one that pretty much bores me to death minus the duel of fates and Palpatine scenes.

That's the one where he learned his first name is Frank.

Francis Underwood Palpatine.

The PT would have been 10x more entertaining if the Emperor talked in a upper class southern accent. RotJ too.

ROFL. I was gonna say an upper class effeminate southern accent like that Chrisley dude.

Spacey sounds like such a tool with that accent, but I love him.

sHc7DnzIs6I

IF he doesn't do Palpatine's voice, I quit.

AotC was worse than TPM.

The fight at the end was, in my opinion, the worst of the prequels, the romance subplot was painful, Boba Fett fanservice, crappy dialogue and directing.... just a terrible movie. And the "If only..... Senator Amidala were here" scene was utterly inexcusable.

AOTC was vastly superior to TPM. Lol.

You're crazy; AOTC was better than TPM.

ESB > ANH > ROTJ > ROTS > AOTC > TPM

Originally posted by Nephthys
AotC was worse than TPM.

The fight at the end was, in my opinion, the worst of the prequels, the romance subplot was painful, Boba Fett fanservice, crappy dialogue and directing.... just a terrible movie. And the "If only..... Senator Amidala were here" scene was utterly inexcusable.



Agreed. Mas Amedaa and Palpatine's blatant moves to vote him dictatorial power in front of the damned Jedi Council was ridiculous. They could have easily filmed that by having them bring Jar Jar in with Palpatine in private and saying "We need this army, as your friend and your predecessor I need you to vote for the creation of the army." Or something like that.

Its just insanely incompetent. Redlettermedia had it right when they put a laugh track into the scene. Its that bad, it can only be taken as a joke.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're crazy; AOTC was better than TPM.

Nah. TPM has Qui-Gon Neeson and Darth Maul, who I actually thought were good.

Sure they both suck, but AotC was worse in terms of the plot (particularly the romantic/Anakin is psychotic plot) and direction.

Both sucked, but AotC sucked less, imo.

TPM had Darth Maul and the best fight in the prequels. And it didn't have the stupid romance subplot... TPM is not a good movie, but it blows AotC away.

Originally posted by CHAOS GRIZZLY
ESB > ANH > ROTJ > ROTS > AOTC > TPM

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its just insanely incompetent. Redlettermedia had it right when they put a laugh track into the scene. Its that bad, it can only be taken as a joke.



Nah. TPM has Qui-Gon Neeson and Darth Maul, who I actually thought were good.

Sure they both suck, but AotC was worse in terms of the plot (particularly the romantic/Anakin is psychotic plot) and direction.

On the other hand TPM had dumbshit like General Jar Jar, the Nemoidians being actual villains (lol worthy) and 8 year old Anakin pwning the Trade Federation battleship. Not to mention that AWFUL moment of
"Always two there are, a master and an apprentice."
"But which was destroyed the master or the apprentice"
"Know not I do, but tell us the camera angle shall"


Also if I may speak heresy, I really don't like ANH. The whole Luke being comforted by Leia because the dude they just met dying when she herself just had her mother, father, and entire planet annihilated is bad writing. And in general I hate pretty much any part of the Star Wars Universe that takes place on Tatooine.

Its why ESB and ROTS are my favorites.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"Always two there are, a master and an apprentice."
"But which was destroyed the master or the apprentice"
"Know not I do, but tell us the camera angle shall"

What was bad about that?

We already knew Maul was the apprentice and that Palpatine was his master.

Originally posted by Lord Stark


Agreed. Mas Amedaa and Palpatine's blatant moves to vote him dictatorial power in front of the damned Jedi Council was ridiculous. They could have easily filmed that by having them bring Jar Jar in with Palpatine in private and saying "We need this army, as your friend and your predecessor I need you to vote for the creation of the army." Or something like that.

Not the epitome of subtlety, granted, but there's nothing gratuitous about it. And the Jedi Council, at that point, didn't oppose Palpatine's bid for emergency powers so their witnessing of Amedda duping Jar Jar isn't a big deal.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
On the other hand TPM had dumbshit like General Jar Jar, the Nemoidians being actual villains (lol worthy) and 8 year old Anakin pwning the Trade Federation battleship. Not to mention that AWFUL moment of
"Always two there are, a master and an apprentice."
"But which was destroyed the master or the apprentice"
"Know not I do, but tell us the camera angle shall"

And AotC had Politician Jar Jar, the Nemoidians still being actual villains and that stupid 50's space cafe.

Which AotC equals with the ominous shot of Palpatine staring at the clones.

I loved the shot of Palpatine staring at the clones.

you would

g6aD-m7Cw84

Originally posted by Nephthys
And AotC had Politician Jar Jar, the Nemoidians still being actual villains and that stupid 50's space cafe.

Which AotC equals with the ominous shot of Palpatine staring at the clones.

Politician Jar Jar had less screentime.
True, but at least we had Dooku controlling much of the dialogue. The shot of Palps staring at the clones was not nearly as bad. He still had Bail and other senators in the backdrop.

The Battle of Geonosis was also WAY cooler than the Naboo conflict.

Originally posted by ares834
TPM had Darth Maul and the best fight in the prequels. And it didn't have the stupid romance subplot... TPM is not a good movie, but it blows AotC away.

Come on guys. Seriously. Attack of the Clones' only redeemable feature in the entire film was Christopher Lee, and what he brought to the table was utterly wasted by the film's shit writing.

Originally posted by ares834
TPM had Darth Maul and the best fight in the prequels. You really think it was the best fight?

I sharply disagree.

It was, at the very least, far superior to any of the fights in AotC.

I enjoyed the Yoda/Dooku fight more, personally. Different strokes, I suppose. /shrug

However, I really don't see how anyone can think the fight sequence from TPM was better than RotS' Sidious/Yoda or Kenobi/Anakin battles. Those were truly epic.

Luke vs Vader was also pretty good.

Ehhhh... I enjoyed the hell out of all the fights in the PT, frankly. Yoda/Sideous and Anakin/Obi-Wan are pretty damn cool. But, the actual quality of the fight choreography and atmosphere surrounding the fights is the closest we can come to objectively analyzing them, and in that regard, the duels got gradually lazier as the trilogy progressed. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon versus Maul was the only fight in the PT where the characters seemed to utilize any kind of actual swordfighting techniques, rather than simply... flailing their swords at each other.

While I agree that the sequence in TPM was well-done, I couldn't disagree more about the swordplay quality regressing in each film.

You disagree with the assertion that the duels post-TPM are basically raves with people flailing their swords at each other rather than actual sword-fighting?

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq5awiBjNO1qkstujo1_500.gif

Can you tell me what the practical application of this maneuver is?

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ly9r8ai8S21qd4wkzo2_500.gif

Or this one, where they're essentially aiming their lightsabers at each other's lightsaber, rather than at the other person's body?

Bane notes in Book of the Sith that striking and opponents lightsaber could push it away and open them up to a blow.

Yes, because cherry-picking a second or two out of a several-minute-long battle sequence means the entire thing was shit, right?

Also, why do you have such a problem with the strikes and parries in the second gif?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
You disagree with the assertion that the duels post-TPM are basically raves with people flailing their swords at each other rather than actual sword-fighting?

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq5awiBjNO1qkstujo1_500.gif

Can you tell me what the practical application of this maneuver is?

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ly9r8ai8S21qd4wkzo2_500.gif

Or this one, where they're essentially aiming their lightsabers at each other's lightsaber, rather than at the other person's body?

The first one is so stupid.

Well, I can just... provide the entire fights via youtube if you wish. The point of a gif is to highlight things.

The problem I have with the strikes and parries is that the strikes are aimed at the other person's blade, rather than at the person. Why are they trying to hit each others swords' rather than the person holding it?

To block their opponent's blade/push it out of the way to create an opening.

Beyond the things Tzeentch mentioned, I also wasn't a fan of of the later half of the lightsaber fight where they were dueling while swinging on cables, walking on a beam, or climbing. It also hurts that we don't see some big parts of the duel, like the scene where Anakin is choking Kenobi.

Obviously, this is all subjective, but the duel in RotS had some major mishaps and far too much "flair". I never found it to have the intensity that the Kenobi/Maul portion of Ep1's duel had.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
To block their opponent's blade/push it out of the way to create an opening. Yah, which makes no sense in actual swordfighting. The momentum you're generating in striking at someone else's blade (rather than parrying it) to "push it away" is going to prevent you from being able to capitalize on any "opening" you create.

I expect Drew Krapshyn to not know anything about swordfighting (I'm hardly an expert myself), but Lucas has access to experts in that field who can design a credible looking fight choreography (Take... Ray Park, as an example).

The Phantom Menace had the best duel in the entire series.

In the entire series.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Yah, which makes no sense in actual swordfighting. The momentum you're generating in striking at someone else's blade (rather than parrying it) to "push it away" is going to prevent you from being able to capitalize on any "opening" you create.

I expect Drew Krapshyn to not know anything about swordfighting (I'm hardly an expert myself), but Lucas has access to experts in that field who can design a credible looking fight choreography (Take... Ray Park, as an example).
Well then again, Bane is familiar with a force ability that allows him to completely redirect his momentum.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Well, I can just... provide the entire fights via youtube if you wish. The point of a gif is to highlight things.

The problem I have with the strikes and parries is that the strikes are aimed at the other person's blade, rather than at the person. Why are they trying to hit each others swords' rather than the person holding it? Except the entire fight wasn't as 'bad' as you're acting, so you'd kind of defeat yourself.

I also find it quite ironic that you're nitpicking at the actor(s) swinging at the lightsaber, rather than their opponent, when they did the exact same shit in TPM:
http://i.imgur.com/1coocro.gif

This still shot is even more telling:
http://i.imgur.com/xmis1sy.jpg


Also, what's with the little flip Maul does?:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2443596/darth-maul-o.gif

SOOOO impractical, right..?


But yeah, we should single out RotS.

The "entire" fight doesn't need to be as bad to qualify it as being worse than the TPM duel, it merely needs to display the sins in question more often, which it does. Fact: the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel has far more instances of flynning than the TPM duel does. Thus, the fight choreography isn't as good.

I never stated that the TPM duel isn't guilty of having flashy bullshit in it, only that it has less than the later duels in the series, so I'm not sure what bringing up gifs showcasing nonsense is supposed to achieve (though the first two gif's actually support my point more than hurt it, note that from Maul's duck onward, every strike is actually aimed at someones body and would wound if not blocked).

Nice strawman, though.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
I never stated that the TPM duel isn't guilty of having flashy bullshit in it, At first it certainly sounded like you were singling out RotS in that regard. If that wasn't your intent, then good... We are on the same wavelength.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
only that it has less than the later duels in the series, Still disagree. Sharply. But again, different strokes.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
so I'm not sure what bringing up gifs showcasing nonsense is supposed to achieve That's interesting because you seemed quite confident in your gif-tactic prior to my gif-retort... You jumped at the chance to post them in fact. mmm

...Glad you had a change of heart, though, because like I said before: cherry-picking one or two movements from a battle with hundredS of moves, as a means to discredit the entire fight sequence, is horrendously flawed logic.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
(though the first two gif's actually support my point more than hurt it, note that from Maul's duck onward, every strike is actually aimed at someones body and would wound if not blocked). So long as we agree that every lightsaber duel has nonsensical flubs here and there, I don't really care how you feel. It's all subjective.

If you told me that red was your favorite color, I wouldn't argue that you were wrong just because that isn't also my favorite color. /shrug

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Nice strawman, though. Please learn the definition of a straw-man before you baselessly try to accuse me of such. Because I can assure you that employing the exact same logic as you=/=straw-man.

So aside from being a contrarian, what assertion are you actually trying to prove here?

http://www.craveonline.com/images/stories/2011/2012/November/Film/Series%20Project/Star%20Wars/Christopher_Lee_vs__Yoda.jpg
Dooku, just slide your blade down and cut Yoda in half! You are literally 2 cm from his brain, why you no do it?

Different strokes m8

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Different strokes m8 Dooku swings down at yodas head, yoda blocks sideways as seen, instead of continuing his downward stroke Dooku stops and presses his blade against yodas like a dumb ass.... Dooku just cut the little green monky in half!

Originally posted by Tzeentch
So aside from being a contrarian, what assertion are you actually trying to prove here? I'm not trying to prove anything, tbh. However, I do disagree with your assertion that the quality of swordsmanship regressed as the PT film progressed.

Originally posted by Eminence
The Phantom Menace had the best duel in the entire series.

In the entire series.

The PT fights appeared cool at first glance. I thought they were f*cking amazing when I first saw them, blew the OT fights clear outta the water.


Then I watched them several dozen times and kept noticing that they never actually seemed to be aiming for each other, just the swords. The flips and twirls look completely ridiculous now. TPM and AotC don't even make the actors look fatigued, just a tad sweaty. They're flashy and "cool" when you don't think about them, but as effective sword fights go, they're lame and boring as shit. The surrounding nadir of characterization and plot urgency just brings 'em down even farther. The PT fights are terrible.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The PT fights appeared cool at first glance. I thought they were f*cking amazing when I first saw them, blew the OT fights clear outta the water.


Then I watched them several dozen times and kept noticing that they never actually seemed to be aiming for each other, just the swords. The flips and twirls look completely ridiculous now. TPM and AotC don't even make the actors look fatigued, just a tad sweaty. They're flashy and "cool" when you don't think about them, but as effective sword fights go, they're lame and boring as shit. The surrounding nadir of characterization and plot urgency just brings 'em down even farther. The PT fights are terrible.

"Applauds."

Well said.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
and those few novels that didn't sound like fanfiction.

What's wrong with novels that sound like fanfiction? I've written fanfictions and I'm very proud of them.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The PT fights appeared cool at first glance. I thought they were f*cking amazing when I first saw them, blew the OT fights clear outta the water.


Then I watched them several dozen times and kept noticing that they never actually seemed to be aiming for each other, just the swords. The flips and twirls look completely ridiculous now. TPM and AotC don't even make the actors look fatigued, just a tad sweaty. They're flashy and "cool" when you don't think about them, but as effective sword fights go, they're lame and boring as shit. The surrounding nadir of characterization and plot urgency just brings 'em down even farther. The PT fights are terrible.


^And yet I'd take 1,000 PT swordfights before I watch the atrocity of Vader vs. Old Kenobi. It is absolutely laughable and down right ridiculous especially watching Sir Alec twirl. Please. And ESB Luke vs. Vader was slightly better but still...really bad. The choreography was on par with a community theater.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
^And yet I'd take 1,000 PT swordfights before I watch the atrocity of Vader vs. Old Kenobi. It is absolutely laughable and down right ridiculous especially watching Sir Alec twirl. Please. And ESB Luke vs. Vader was slightly better but still...really bad. The choreography was on par with a community theater.

Interesting, because I'd take 1,000 OT swordfights before I watch the atrocity of Anakin vs. Kenobi. It is absolutely laughable and down right ridiculous, especially watching them twirl their lightsabres around for no reason while standing in front of each other. Please.

Lets be real, the entire lore pretty much comes from the EU, the Star Wars universe feels so tiny now.
**** Disney they killed my Kyle katarn

Originally posted by TH3_V01D
Lets be real, the entire lore pretty much comes from the EU, the Star Wars universe feels so tiny now.

True. That's one of the reasons I've always preferred the EU to the movies.

Originally posted by TH3_V01D
L**** Disney they killed my Kyle katarn

Not at all. Kyle's stories are still around and you can still read them. Plus everything's being kept in print and authors still have access to it so its not impossible we'll get new books, comics etc in the "Legends" setting. Even if we don't there's always fanfiction.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The PT fights appeared cool at first glance. I thought they were f*cking amazing when I first saw them, blew the OT fights clear outta the water.


Then I watched them several dozen times and kept noticing that they never actually seemed to be aiming for each other, just the swords. The flips and twirls look completely ridiculous now. TPM and AotC don't even make the actors look fatigued, just a tad sweaty. They're flashy and "cool" when you don't think about them, but as effective sword fights go, they're lame and boring as shit. The surrounding nadir of characterization and plot urgency just brings 'em down even farther. The PT fights are terrible.

I really enjoyed TPM duel (still not as good as ESB's or RotJ's). But, yeah, the rest were quite bad.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Interesting, because I'd take 1,000 OT swordfights before I watch the atrocity of Anakin vs. Kenobi. It is absolutely laughable and down right ridiculous, especially watching them twirl their lightsabres around for no reason while standing in front of each other. Please.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
^And yet I'd take 1,000 PT swordfights before I watch the atrocity of Vader vs. Old Kenobi. It is absolutely laughable and down right ridiculous especially watching Sir Alec twirl. Please. And ESB Luke vs. Vader was slightly better but still...really bad. The choreography was on par with a community theater.

I think the Vader Luke fight in Rotj was pretty good.

Wait, so there is someone that exists that'd take that ridiculous final duel during Episode 2 over the ESB duel? That brings a tear to my eye.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
What's wrong with novels that sound like fanfiction? I've written fanfictions and I'm very proud of them. That's great. If you're a good writer, they won't sound like someone's fanfiction when reading them. But a fan-writer is forgiven if they do---someone adding a piece to a large canon needs to do better than that. Were you around a few years back when a bunch of us read the Son of Suns trilogy? Best Star Wars story I've ever read by a huge margin, canon or no. A fanfic that read like a fantastic novel. And yet it's shmucks like Drew Karpy that get the privilege of adding to canon. It's unfair I tells ya.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
^And yet I'd take 1,000 PT swordfights before I watch the atrocity of Vader vs. Old Kenobi. It is absolutely laughable and down right ridiculous especially watching Sir Alec twirl. Please. And ESB Luke vs. Vader was slightly better but still...really bad. The choreography was on par with a community theater. Yes it was, and that was why it was better. I don't know about you but I don't watch Star Wars for the "wicked badass sword fights, brah!" I watch it because I love forgetting that I'm watching something fake successfully pretend to be something wonderfully real-feeling.

The highly precise, fast-paced, well-choreographed, utterly bland sword fights in the PT feel fake. Those movies could have done every other elements right (story, characters, pacing, tension etc.) and those sword fights would still feel fake. They're too clean, too smooth, too well done. Real sword fights are frantic, dirty, exhausting, tense, and not composed of perfectly engineered moves swung by people with infinite stamina and an inability to not aim for the other guy's sword.


The same gripes we have about the PT looking too computerized, sterile, and emotionlessly animated apply equally to the sword fights. They lack grit, the lack soul.

Originally posted by ares834
I really enjoyed TPM duel (still not as good as ESB's or RotJ's). But, yeah, the rest were quite bad.

Lol as if the duels were why the OT was superior to vast swaths of the EU and the horrible shit in the prequels.

It was the factors behind the duel that made them superior, i,e the weight of the situation and the desperation behind Luke and the rebellion. The ROTJ duel is still the best in the mythos currently, as there was so much emotional power and tension between Vader and Luke. The choreographed and CGI laden shit of PT duels has nothing on it.

Crap! Then Maul REALLY come back from that pit on Naboo??!? EVEN WORSE: BOBBA FETT IS TAKING HIS SLOW DEATH INSIDE THE SARLACC!!!???!??

Originally posted by peluffo
Crap! Then Maul REALLY come back from that pit on Naboo??!? EVEN WORSE: BOBBA FETT IS TAKING HIS SLOW DEATH INSIDE THE SARLACC!!!???!?? boba is most likely gonna return in Starwars 7

Originally posted by PTforthewin
boba is most likely gonna return in Starwars 7 Oh God, no.

How could you diss EU? It has so many great eras and characters. Exar Kun, Revan, Sith Triumvirate, Vitiate's Empire, Bane... Are they all gonna be wasted just like that?

I can endure the changes that will be made in the stories occurring during the new movies but pre prequal EU should remain untouched.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's great. If you're a good writer, they won't sound like someone's fanfiction when reading them. But a fan-writer is forgiven if they do---someone adding a piece to a large canon needs to do better than that. Were you around a few years back when a bunch of us read the Son of Suns trilogy? Best Star Wars story I've ever read by a huge margin, canon or no. A fanfic that read like a fantastic novel. And yet it's shmucks like Drew Karpy that get the privilege of adding to canon. It's unfair I tells ya.

I see, thanks.

Yeah it is unfair.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes it was, and that was why it was better. I don't know about you but I don't watch Star Wars for the "wicked badass sword fights, brah!" I watch it because I love forgetting that I'm watching something fake successfully pretend to be something wonderfully real-feeling.

The highly precise, fast-paced, well-choreographed, utterly bland sword fights in the PT feel fake. Those movies could have done every other elements right (story, characters, pacing, tension etc.) and those sword fights would still feel fake. They're too clean, too smooth, too well done. Real sword fights are frantic, dirty, exhausting, tense, and not composed of perfectly engineered moves swung by people with infinite stamina and an inability to not aim for the other guy's sword.


The same gripes we have about the PT looking too computerized, sterile, and emotionlessly animated apply equally to the sword fights. They lack grit, the lack soul.

Well said. Very eloquent.

Originally posted by Sinious
How could you diss EU? It has so many great eras and characters. Exar Kun, Revan, Sith Triumvirate, Vitiate's Empire, Bane... Are they all gonna be wasted just like that?

I can endure the changes that will be made in the stories occurring during the new movies but pre prequal EU should remain untouched.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The PT fights appeared cool at first glance. I thought they were f*cking amazing when I first saw them, blew the OT fights clear outta the water.


Then I watched them several dozen times and kept noticing that they never actually seemed to be aiming for each other, just the swords. The flips and twirls look completely ridiculous now. TPM and AotC don't even make the actors look fatigued, just a tad sweaty. They're flashy and "cool" when you don't think about them, but as effective sword fights go, they're lame and boring as shit. The surrounding nadir of characterization and plot urgency just brings 'em down even farther. The PT fights are terrible.

I'm coming into this a bit late, but I think there are some legit explainations for the difference in sword fightiing style.

In IV, V, VI we are watching someone with 0-3 years force experience fighting against a man that is mostly machine, and an 80 YO man that has been in exile for 18 years fighting for the first time in 18 years. Its not going to be a pretty fight. It is more sword fight.

In I, II, III we are seeing the Jedi and Sith at the top of thier games. Jedi practicing Sword Skills and Force skills from the time they are born. Even in real life if you have this, your tatics move from more reserved trying to land a killing blow, to probing defense, and opening the opposing fighter to make a mistake to capitalize on. Swords skill are automatically better. Then add to that the anticipation that is created by "knowing" and using the force, and you get highly stylized fights that look more like a dance then a sword fight... and that is exactly what I would expect by people trained to use a sword for 18-30 years and that have precognition and enhanced human powers.

I will also expect to see VII, VIII, IX will have the same type of fighting, as these people will have been taught to use the force and saber from an early age. Just like the Legacy ahem EU books did. As time goes on Luke, Jacen, Corran... they all become sword fights in the style of the prequils because their fighting skills progress and thier force talents progress.

Now if you want to argue why Vader and Obie;s fight was so stylized then 18 years later is just poor... well like I said, obie hasnt fought for 18 years and Vader is more machine.

The fans and George can say all they want, but the primary reason that the OT fights were shit was because of limited choreography and stuntwork for the decade. That's it. Nothing else.

Yeah, the way Vader and Luke are described fighting outside of the movie, neither are clunky moving around doing anything because of lack of experience. And it's not like Vader is made of rock either, he still has speed. More than what's shown in the movie anyway.

Originally posted by CaedusRules
I'm coming into this a bit late, but I think there are some legit explainations for the difference in sword fightiing style.

In IV, V, VI we are watching someone with 0-3 years force experience fighting against a man that is mostly machine, and an 80 YO man that has been in exile for 18 years fighting for the first time in 18 years. Its not going to be a pretty fight. It is more sword fight.

In I, II, III we are seeing the Jedi and Sith at the top of thier games. Jedi practicing Sword Skills and Force skills from the time they are born. Even in real life if you have this, your tatics move from more reserved trying to land a killing blow, to probing defense, and opening the opposing fighter to make a mistake to capitalize on. Swords skill are automatically better. Then add to that the anticipation that is created by "knowing" and using the force, and you get highly stylized fights that look more like a dance then a sword fight... and that is exactly what I would expect by people trained to use a sword for 18-30 years and that have precognition and enhanced human powers.

I will also expect to see VII, VIII, IX will have the same type of fighting, as these people will have been taught to use the force and saber from an early age. Just like the Legacy ahem EU books did. As time goes on Luke, Jacen, Corran... they all become sword fights in the style of the prequils because their fighting skills progress and thier force talents progress.

Now if you want to argue why Vader and Obie;s fight was so stylized then 18 years later is just poor... well like I said, obie hasnt fought for 18 years and Vader is more machine. Hey you know what, all that is a fantastic explanation. The era, the old age, the out-of-practise...


But I wasn't moaning like a woman because I couldn't think of an explanation for the disparity between OT fights and everywhere else. I was griping because despite the explanations-- the shitty, poorly choreographed, clunkier looking fights in the OT felt more real. In films where the people and sets weren't computers and were largely real, and in a fictional universe that can't possibly be real, I like to see one-on-one fights that feel real. Ones that don't look fake, don't look stylized, don't look rehearsed, don't look practised, don't look expertly timed and pinpointed.


That's all the PT has, and it bores me. And Tempest is right: if Lucas had the dearth of resources and power when filming the OT as he did the prequels, I'm sure the OT swordfights (and much of the OT in general) would look unpleasantly familiar. Thank Space Christ the man was limited in his money, clout, and technology. His original films are better for it. Art from adversity.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hey you know what, all that is a fantastic explanation. The era, the old age, the out-of-practise...


But I wasn't moaning like a woman because I couldn't think of an explanation for the disparity between OT fights and everywhere else. I was griping because despite the explanations-- the shitty, poorly choreographed, clunkier looking fights in the OT felt more real. In films where the people and sets weren't computers and were largely real, and in a fictional universe that can't possibly be real, I like to see one-on-one fights that feel real. Ones that don't look fake, don't look stylized, don't look rehearsed, don't look practised, don't look expertly timed and pinpointed.


That's all the PT has, and it bores me. And Tempest is right: if Lucas had the dearth of resources and power when filming the OT as he did the prequels, I'm sure the OT swordfights (and much of the OT in general) would look unpleasantly familiar. Thank Space Christ the man was limited in his money, clout, and technology. His original films are better for it. Art from adversity.

These are largely differences in aesthetic and everyone has their preferences.

Movies for the 1970s tend to be more realistic in aesthetic than any other era - in dialogue, the realism of the violence, the general grittiness of the worlds they portray. From the 30s onward, movies slowly moved away from more theater-inspired sets, costumes, dialogue, and stylized design, an I think the 70s was the pinnacle of realism, which was a value of the hound directors of the period.

Since that time, there has been a shift back towards style and design, facilitated in no small part by the design options digital media offer. There is more emphasis on looking 'cool' versus looking 'real'. Star Wars had a role in this, too, as directors began creating outer space and other fantastic setting where design teams could go bonkers. But Star Wars itself retained the gritty feel of 70s cinema.

Which one a person prefers is really personal preference - each have their advantages and flaws. Myself, I prefer the real, bt that's probably because I'm becoming an old curmudgeon.

Regarding the fight choreography specifically, Lucas was most directly inspired by samurai movies, and especially those by Kurosawa. And those movies are not about fancy swordplay. The fighting is direct and utilitarian, and the samurai themselves have no superpowers.

By the time the prequels came out, the Chinese Wushu movie style was in vogue, where characters have superhuman skills and fights are choreographed for beauty and wow factor. The Matrix, Crouching tiger! Hidden Dragon and similar movies came out around the same time.

Both styles have their merits, and I like elements of both. I think the standard should be how well the director utilizes them in a way that serves to enhance the telling of their story.

Here's a pretty informative short video about the samurai DNA in Star Wars.

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