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the three jedi master's that fell before the emperor palpatine Vs the Reborn/Foundry Revan. in Revan's Foundry. having fought an era of strife revan was highly proficient at fighting multiple enemies at once; as he showed us during his fight with the imperial strike team which was made up of various warriors of great renowned and also when he single - handedly took on two Terentatek beast in the tomb of Naga Sadow

Lightsabers
Force Powers
All-out
*Bonus Match* Revan Vs Mace Windu alone after a few hours of prep

Revan is highly proficient at fighting numerous opponents at once, and possesses numerous dark side abilities none of the Strike Team have defenses against, plus holds the feats and accoaldes superior then any of them (perhaps them all combined, but that might be a stretch...eh, maybe not). He takes them with intense difficulty if Sidious can with ease.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan is highly proficient at fighting numerous opponents at once, and possesses numerous dark side abilities none of the Strike Team have defenses against, plus holds the feats and accoaldes superior then any of them (perhaps them all combined, but that might be a stretch...eh, maybe not). He takes them with intense difficulty if Sidious can with ease. http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/45c/cf5/dda/resized/winter-is-coming-meme-generator-brace-yourselves-violent-reactions-are-coming-a34f7e.jpg

No, most members of this forum will agree with me, with the exception of the members who came from SWF.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, most members of this forum will agree with me, with the exception of the members who came from SWF. who do you think I was talking about? im actually a little surprised Jack and his boy haven't all ready started bitching and moaning.

Jack actually ranks Revan as highly as I do.
However, he also ranks the B-Team also incredibly high.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
who do you think I was talking about? im actually a little surprised Jack and his boy haven't all ready started bitching and moaning.
We're all surprised.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jack actually ranks Revan as highly as I do.
However, he also ranks the B-Team also incredibly high. You and I both know he'll do and say the most ridiculous things in order to piss us off, whether it's saying Darth Vader is featless or that Jar Jar is the most interesting character in all of the six films

Revan stands no chance against all three at once.

One on one, I think he kills Kolar and Fisto.

Not sure about Tiin though, he might be able to.

Strike team wins. Revan is nothing special

I agree, but even as featless as he is. He has just about as much going on for him as most of the Jedi council.

"featless"
*motions to the corpses of hundreds of dead Sith*
"featless"
*motions to the two dead terrentateks under his feet*
"featless"
*motions to Nyriss's ashes under her destroyed fortress*
"featless"
*motions to the meteros being downpoured to the ground*

And Mace Windu wins. Mace Windu walks up to revan and says "what are you doing here! You don't exist! Revan replies saying "Oh no that's right"! *revan dissapears* mace windu wins since he's Samuel l jackson

^Meteors are n-canon even when dealing with the previous canon system.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"featless"
*motions to the corpses of hundreds of dead Sith*
"featless"
*motions to the two dead terrentateks under his feet*
"featless"
*motions to Nyriss's ashes under her destroyed fortress*
"featless"
*motions to the meteros being downpoured to the ground* sith troopers not actual sith.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
^Meteors are n-canon even when dealing with the previous canon system.

As quoted by my god damn thread all about Revan's feats in which you are so unintelligent you can't even read.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station."

Now, your probably thinking "so what, sure he killed hundreds of Sith, but they are featless." That is WRONG. These Dark Jedi are NOT featless. They are above your proficient Jedi Knight. Why do I say "proficient"?
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/shadow10.png
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/B0xG36.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/t42mG1.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-12-2014/hreVqR.gif
They defeated the Jedi Knights assigned by the Jedi Council to aid Revan on his Star Forge assault. The Jedi Council would not assign fodder Jedi to be Revan's backup in case he was injured, so all logic points to these being fairly skilled Jedi, who were defeated by Dark Jedi. Heck, must I really even mention how greatly they were being amped? Hopefully these quotes do justice:

"The Star Forge was an enormous space-station/factory that harnessed the power of an entire star. Within its hull was a vast, intricate network of automated machines designed to mass-produce weaponry, droids, and starships. However, it was more than merely a metal construct. Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."
"Malak powered the Star Forge with captured Jedi Knights, drawing on their powers to augment the massive input if the Unknown World's star."
"Here on the Star Forge the power of the dark side is at its strongest!"

"Slaughtering" hundreds of Dark Jedi where they are being incredibly amp is one of the greatest lightsaber feats in the mythos, and honestly only replicated by Tulak Hord to Jedi.

Revan cannot win against all three of them, even Palpatine dealing with them as he did was a tad bit ridiculous.

And no, Ant, I actually don't think everyone agrees with you on this one. We'll just have to see, though. I'm sure Neph will support you

Ah, my predictions have so far been correct.
The SWF members are in support of the B-Team.

However if Revan can handle himself against dozens of Dark Jedi who had a hugeee amp, he can handle these 3 with some beefy difficulty. They don't even have defenses for drain and insanity, and FLS would be something that can come in handy. However hypothetically, Revan should not be able to win, but via how easy Palpatine won, I will beg to differ.

I'd take Lord Stark's comment as an implied support of the B-Team.

Its because you put Revan against all three of them at once.

genius . lol

No one ever asked for your thoughts on the topic's contents, just the answer. And quite frankly, no one gaf. However I will combine all the B-Team feats as one person and then compare them to Revan.

That's not exactly how it works... If I combined the feats of 100 low-feat Padawans and counted them as one, they'd still get roflstomped by someone of a Council Member's status, but there's absolutely no way in hell a regular Councillor can defeat a hundred Jedi at once.

Team wins

The assorted performances of B team > Revan's N cannon feats and tons of vague and poorly elaborated accolades barring whatever he did in the Crapshyn novel

Lightsaber Feats:
B Team: Easily defeats Quinlan Vos; defeats General Grievous
Revan: Slaughters dozens of Sith on the Star Forge
Victor: Revan

Telekinesis:
B Team: Lifts an immense droid part to crush another droid; lifts a large water capsule
Revan: Stated to be able to collapse a building
Victor: Revan

Intelligence:
B Team: They are probably pretty smart
Revan: "Brilliant Military Leader" who won the Mando. Wars
Victor: Revan

Accolades:
B Team : "The Best of the Order"; "expert duelist"
Revan: "One of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history"; among the "best of the Jedi"; "heart of the Force"; "dominate worlds"; "tremendous power"; "Jedi Order's most powerful champion"
Victor: Revan

Greatest Other Factor:
B Team (Speed): Demonstrated numerous after images
Revan (Precognition): Capable of predicting attacks months in advance
Victor: Draw (I'm being generous)

Outcome: Revan takes this.

Not only are you being overly generous to Revan there, (There's no way in hell defeating random Dark Jedi is better than defeating Grievous) you still need to multiply all of the B-Team's feats by three, considering this isn't a one on one match.

You are saying defeating at least 100 Dark Jedi with an incredible amp is lesser then beating Grievous? Incredible.

1. By your own admission he had an amp

2nd. His feat is N cannon.

Revan stomps while riding Malak's shoulders.

LOL @ cartage, the dark jedi had an amp. Not Revan.

Originally posted by carthage
1. By your own admission he had an amp

2nd. His feat is N cannon.
1. lmfao. *facepalm* It was the most powerful Dark Side nexus the Dark Jedi were on, this is Jedi Revan.
2. His feat is canon and is recognized in various sources from novels to prima guides to source books.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are saying defeating at least 100 Dark Jedi with an incredible amp is lesser then beating Grievous? Incredible.

100 Dark Jedi spread across a space station that is dozens of kilometers in diameter.

He faced at least 24 of them at a time, hence "dozenS."
In total, it was several hundred.

Quote saying he faced dozens at a time?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are saying defeating at least 100 Dark Jedi with an incredible amp is lesser then beating Grievous? Incredible.

Prove that that was a sabers only feat.

Just as I thought. That quote says there were dozens in total, not that he faced dozens at the same time. Now that you mention it, I don't think I even killed two dozen DJ total when I played through the SF. /thread

You face a dozens Dark Jedi with getting sprayed at by Sith Troopers in a small, compressed area which is just a walk way. Revan would be facing as many Dark Jedi that can fit in the walkway as possible (a dozen), and once he clears that, the next wave will come, and the following. My claim is correct.

To further support my claim:
"a large number of Dark Jedi crowding this thin, lit walkway. Wade into the fray and execute a number of techniques of your choosing, cutting a swath through the assembled troops until all have fallen.

Originally posted by carthage
I agree, but even as featless as he is. He has just about as much going on for him as most of the Jedi council.

"featless"
*motions to the corpse of Darth Malak one of the strongest swordsman of his time
"featless"
*motions to bloodied corpse of Calo Nord
"featless"
*motions to the Force Storm he was able to conjure up against the imperial strike team
"featless"
*motions to the dead corpse of Mandalore the Ultimate and Yusanis

yeah, 'featless'....

by that logic all of the three jedi master's feats are also n-canon and the only thing they have going for them is, surviving genosia and dying at the hands of a sith lord.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1553645/funny-gif-Steve-Carell-laughing.gif oh your serious, please see above.

even if it wasn't It would still be impressive, considering not many Jedi can duel another jedi and simultaneously deflect blaster fire.


I like you moose, you make laugh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are saying defeating at least 100 Dark Jedi with an incredible amp is lesser then beating Grievous? Incredible. a bunch of weak under average mook dark jedi?

The Dark Jedi that Revan fought onboard the Star Forge were by no means special, but I wouldn't call them weak either. They were stronger than your average Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars era, and their powers are amplified by the Star Forge's nexus of Dark Side Energy.

That being said, while Revan did kill dozens of Dark Jedi during his trek of the Star Forge, there is absolutely no evidence to support him fighting dozens at a time. Your quote is meaningless, we know there are "many" warriors that opposed Revan on the Star Forge. It does not mean what you are implying.

Not only that, but on a "thin lit walkway" the Dark Jedi do not have the normal advantages posed by a large group of Force Sensitives. At maximum, one or two of these warriors could stand side-by-side on the walkway, they couldn't flank Revan nor apply effective teamwork.

Don't get me wrong--It's a very impressive feat, something that only a higher caliber swordsman could accomplish, but it's not something outside of General Grievous's capabilities, much less outside of the capabilities of *three* Jedi Swordsmiths of that caliber.

For the sake of comparison, I'd redirect you to the Legacy comics. Shado Vao and Antares Draco took on a couple dozen Sith during their expedition to Korriban. There were two of them, but they were also surrounded, flanked, and the numbers were arguably greater than what Revan faced at any single time on the SF.

It's a nice try, but Revan can't take three high-end master level opponents at the same time. Hell, Anakin and Dooku probably wouldn't be able to either without favoring circumstances on their side.

Revan isn't beating three of them at once.

Plus the strike team wins because I like prequal era more then the old republic era

Most Powerful Nexus + Being Able to hold there own against Bastila Shan + Knows Force Lightning and Force Drain=More powerful then an average powerful Jedi Knight.

At one point it says Revan encounters a "large number" at once, yes, not in a stretch, but at once. It is said in total of this narrow, small walkway, there were dozen(s), so it is logical to assume the "large number" at to be at least one dozen if the total was several dozen.


http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/7955/681b.jpg
There is enough room for at least 5 Dark Jedi in front of Revan, not even counting the sides and Revan's behind. He could be facing max around 14 Sith at once, which matches what I said above ^

You are really underestimating this feat. Grievous was incapable of defeating Koth and some gungans, to say he can replicate this is bullshit.

What comic?. I have read some comics in Legacy and it was about a dozen Sith versus Cade, Vao, and various others.

Yes they could.

1.) A large number doesn't equate to a dozen in any book, especially when across the entire Star Forge he fought "dozens" rather than "hundreds" of Dark Jedi.

2.) Conceded, though I doubt more than three would squish together on that walkway without anyone falling off, while simultaneously trying to fight Revan. XD

3.) Since when is Grievous is incapable of defeating Koth? The good General has posed an equal match for both Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

4.) I believe the comic was in "Extremes", when Shado and Draco enter Korriban disguised as Sith but are caught.

5.) Anakin didn't handle one Obi-Wan so well. How is he going to handle three Jedi of that caliber at the same time?

Originally posted by NewGuy01


3.) Since when is Grievous is incapable of defeating Koth?



Since they fought in TCW.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
The good General has posed an equal match for both Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.


He's never been equal to either of them.

1.) He wasn't, by any definition losing that fight.

2.) He's fought evenly with Kenobi in almost every single battle they've been in, and his performance against Mace is a good indicator of his skill.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1.) He wasn't, by any definition losing that fight.

So Koth successfully fighting Grievous off with a wounded arm, then TKing him against the wall disarming him, is not Grievous losing the one on one fight?

He was only able to capture Koth with the aid of multiple guards.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
2.) He's fought evenly with Kenobi in almost every single battle they've been in, and his performance against Mace is a good indicator of his skill.


I think you need to re-watch all TCW fights involving General Grievous.

There's only 1 instance when Kenobi retreated from Grievous, and all that was, was a saber lock then a kick from Grievous, then Grievous advancing with his superior forces.

Every other time Grievous has fought Kenobi he's run for his life. And Kenobi never had help. Not once. One time Kenobi beat down Grievous plus 2 Magnaguards. But Kenobi never once needed help beating down Grievous.

No, the entire Star Forge did not have "dozens", merely one section. Parts of that section are stated to have "countless." The entire ammount was said to be in the "armies".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/large+number regonizes "that is above the average in size or magnitude." All other statstics on the Star Forge state "dozens", which would therefore be the average magnitude, which means "a large number" would therefore need to be greater then at least 24 warriors.


Since the Clone Wars. Must I also refernece to his fight with Ventress or Tano?


I'll check it out when I get home.


The B-Team is not on the same level as Kenobi. Look at what Anakin did to the master swordsman, Cin Drallig.


"Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66



The B-Team is not on the same level as Kenobi. Look at what Anakin did to the master swordsman, Cin Drallig.

I don't agree with Ant on many of his points about Revan's lightsaber ability and other things, but I do think that he has a good chance of winning this fight.

Lame. I plan on making an updated thread on Revan's lightsaber abilities on ComicVine and then posting the link here. The one I made in the EU section was quite poor compared to my Revan Respect Thread in general, which is my current crowning achievement in life.

Yeah, I'm the lame one.

Check out this sweet pic tho:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/3f3c18cc46360837e6113b331b3d858a/tumblr_mzidwvHLOd1sfjdp3o1_500.jpg

fapomatic

LOL @ crowning achievement in life. Funny Ant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Check out this sweet pic tho:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/3f3c18cc46360837e6113b331b3d858a/tumblr_mzidwvHLOd1sfjdp3o1_500.jpg

fapomatic
Holy shit, can't believe I never seen that before. Going to add it to my Revan Fanclub instagram account!

That's a nice pic, but my preferred appearance of him is still his SWTOR look that's in my signature.

I prefer his KOTOR mask, not the one from TOR.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lame. I plan on making an updated thread on Revan's lightsaber abilities on ComicVine and then posting the link here. The one I made in the EU section was quite poor compared to my Revan Respect Thread in general, which is my current crowning achievement in life.
Well, I made it : http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revans-lightsaber-abilities-overview/97613/

Good job, I knew most of the information but there were a couple of interesting things I had missed in there as well.

One thing though--Factually, Revan had "Juyo" activated when he fought the strike team, not "Ataru".

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Good job, I knew most of the information but there were a couple of interesting things I had missed in there as well.

One thing though--Factually, Revan had "Juyo" activated when he fought the strike team, not "Ataru".
Thank you.

Ah, I missed that. Can you provide a source? Thank you.
Also, are those jumps not Ataru?, because they match the "Path of the Jedi" descriptions. Perhaps he used both?

You can jump without using Ataru.

0j6_LrzhURg

You can tell by the red symbol above the 50. Its the symbol for Juyo form that Marauders and Sentinels can use.

He also switches to Shii-Cho halfway through the fight.

Okay thank you. I will spend the rest of my morning checking out what all those other icons means.

What did you think about the rest of my thread?

tl;dr

I'll check it out l8er.

Also don't bother about the icons. The ones on the left hand side are all status effects that have been inflicted on him and the one next to his lightsaber form is 'Force of Will', which just means you can't stun or slow him.

Ah okay, thanks for the heads up.
Is the icon for Revan's Juyo the normal Juyo, or Mastery Juyo, because they look the same.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ah okay, thanks for the heads up.
Is the icon for Revan's Juyo the normal Juyo, or Mastery Juyo, because they look the same.

The icon for Revan's Juyo, which isn't actually Juyo at all is the same as the classes version of Juyo that the player gets.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Check out this sweet pic tho:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/3f3c18cc46360837e6113b331b3d858a/tumblr_mzidwvHLOd1sfjdp3o1_500.jpg

fapomatic

Damn, that is mad sexy.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
Damn, that is mad sexy. YOUR MOM IS SEXY! BURN!!!! OHHHH

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think you need to re-watch all TCW fights involving General Grievous.

There's only 1 instance when Kenobi retreated from Grievous, and all that was, was a saber lock then a kick from Grievous, then Grievous advancing with his superior forces.

Every other time Grievous has fought Kenobi he's run for his life. And Kenobi never had help. Not once. One time Kenobi beat down Grievous plus 2 Magnaguards. But Kenobi never once needed help beating down Grievous.


No, NewGuy is right. In fact, he's being generous to Kenobi. Grievous always held the upper hand against Kenobi in combat, until Kenobi uses the force on him, which usually happens when Grievous is taking his sweat time talking. GG has even gotten the best of Kenobi in "The deserter," leaving Kenobi on the ground for a good period of time, giving Grievous enough time to escape from republic forces. The episode prior to that had Grievous ragdolling Kenobi at one point. The only time Obi Wan handily defeated Grievous was in ROTS. There's no arguing to that; Grievous has consistently gave Kenobi hell in all of their battles, putting Obi Wan down several times.

Also, Kenobi has never beat down Grievous plus two magnaguards. He has defeated them separately, IIRC. If you consider the magnaguards as help, then Kenobi also had help from Anduli at one point, considering GG has fought them both back to back.

The only fight I can recall between Kenobi and Grievous with Magna Guards was in "Grievous Intrigue". Let me remind you that Kenobi killed the guards before he fought Grievous, who was having a conversation at the time.

Let's not also forget that Grievous puts a dual-wielding Kenobi down in a few seconds afterward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ja7rgrRNHU

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The only fight I can recall between Kenobi and Grievous with Magna Guards was in "Grievous Intrigue". Let me remind you that Kenobi killed the guards before he fought Grievous, who was having a conversation at the time.

Let's not also forget that Grievous puts a dual-wielding Kenobi down in a few seconds afterward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ja7rgrRNHU

Watch again. He put one of those magnaguards down first, but was fighting Grievous plus one magnaguard simultaneously. And dual wielding Kenobi? You mean with a lightsaber and electrostaff?

Grievous had all the advantages there. Tight space which favors his multiple lightsaber. Magnaguards as back up. And yet the fight still ended with Kenobi force slamming Grievous, then Grievous running for his life.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, NewGuy is right. In fact, he's being generous to Kenobi. Grievous always held the upper hand against Kenobi in combat, until Kenobi uses the force on him, which usually happens when Grievous is taking his sweat time talking. GG has even gotten the best of Kenobi in "The deserter," leaving Kenobi on the ground for a good period of time, giving Grievous enough time to escape from republic forces. The episode prior to that had Grievous ragdolling Kenobi at one point. The only time Obi Wan handily defeated Grievous was in ROTS. There's no arguing to that; Grievous has consistently gave Kenobi hell in all of their battles, putting Obi Wan down several times.

Also, Kenobi has never beat down Grievous plus two magnaguards. He has defeated them separately, IIRC. If you consider the magnaguards as help, then Kenobi also had help from Anduli at one point, considering GG has fought them both back to back.

We've been over this several times yet you refuse to accept Kenobi is clearly beyond Grievous even though Dave Filoni had made that clear.

I've addressed the magnaguard issue.

Grievous has gotten his licks on Kenobi, no denying that. But he is ultimately outmatched every time which is why he runs every time they are fighting one on one.

The only times Grievous "looked" superior was in "the deserter" and in their final fight in season 5. But those were both just a couple of clashes and a kick from Grievous. With the overall battle field deciding who was running.

But then Grievous also kicked Ventress before she overpowered him. And again Filoni had made it clear that Grievous is no match for Jedi of Ventress/Kenobi's caliber when it comes to a fair one vs one.

I mean for GOD's Sake Ashoka had stalemated him. You think she's even close to Ventress/Kenobi? No.

And the only way Kenobi has ever beaten Grievous other than RotS is pushing him into a wall, which is essentially no different than Grievous taking Kenobi down with a kick.

The only real difference is that Grievous retreats, because he's a coward.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And the only way Kenobi has ever beaten Grievous other than RotS is pushing him into a wall, which is essentially no different than Grievous taking Kenobi down with a kick.

The only real difference is that Grievous retreats, because he's a coward.


No the difference is Grievous retreats because he's been flat out disarmed and beaten. That's why he runs. Whilst Kenobi has never been flat out beaten by Grievous. Their last fight in TCW looked the closest to Kenobi being beaten. But since that was literally one Saber lock and then a kick, I think we can safely assume Grievous got lucky there, and Kenobi was really only retreating due to Grievous's greater forces.

I mean heck that's the same damn arc where Ashoka stalemates Grievous.

No its not. Shes losing.

She does overpower him in a saberlock though.

She's definitely losin, and Grievous doesn't seem to be taking the fight very seriously. *Watches as Ahsoka is rolling on the floor and Grievous is hopping behind her with spinning blades laughing heartily*

Originally posted by Nephthys
No its not. Shes losing.

She does overpower him in a saberlock though.


Meh. It was definitely a serious challenge for him anyway.

Point is I don't know why this is even a discussion anymore. Filoni said years ago that ROTS was the first time Kenobi gets Grievous in a one on one fair situation and that's when he batters him.

He's also said regarding Ventress vs Grievous that Grievous isn't a match for someone of Ventress's caliber. And I doubt anyone here is going to argue Ventress is in a caliber above Kenobi.

*References to above post*



I don't see how this is relevant--Grievous is dirty, it's part of his usual fighting style.



What? Sure, Obi-Wan held the dominant edge after scoring a strike that took off a couple of Grievous's arms, but Grievous definitely wasn't a sitting duck in that fight.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-

The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it.



No, but I would argue that Ventress is in the same caliber as Kenobi. I'd also point out that Ventress was influenced by the residual dark power provided by Dathomiir.

Grievous has defeated Ventress before.

It's relevant because neither summoning the MagnaGuards nor fleeing are usually viable in these versus fights.


About twenty five seconds after the first clash of lightsabers Grievous is down two hands.


Canonically?

If you're drawing from Legends material (which I would understand, in context) then Dooku's lectures apply, too. If the Revenge of the Sith novel stands Grievous still has whatever accolades Windu provided him, if not necessarily anything else from their duel in Labyrinth of Evil. He's obviously a demanding offensive presence, but it's apparent (especially in Legends material) that he lacks the prescience, power or nuance necessary to actually defeat any of the era's top dogs in a "fair" fight (i.e. no surprise, no help, both parties in good health).

Obviously we're talking about legends if Revan is an entire side in this matchup.

Grievous has never called on his MagnaGuards to gain an advantage against Obi-Wan. I'm not exactly sure how whether or not he flees is relevant to the fairness of a fight?



And during those thirty* five seconds, Grievous breaks the defenses of the greatest Soresu user in the mythos, and is a "hairsbreadth" from slicing through his head.

Obi-Wan was able to take out two of his arms by suddenly switching to an offensive fighting method while Grievous was in mid-attack. After he lost those arms, Kenobi didn't take another. (Though admittedly the fight was interrupted not long after that.)




That's right, nothing Dooku said contradicts me. In fact, now that you mention it, Dooku in LoE mused that he had a hard time defeating Grievous in their sparring matches.



But my original point to begin with is that you would have to be a top dog to defeat him in the first place, which Kit Fisto did. If Grievous has fought on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Fisto should be somewhere around that level of capability as well.

Revan can't take three fighters of that caliber.

I didn't read through the entire thread, but I'm assuming Grievous came up via Fisto. Hence, "context." But based on the material being used to argue his case I wasn't sure if - for the purposes of this tangent - everything is on the table or if certain sources were overlooked (or if others are just being used selectively). Benefit of the doubt.

Obviously.

This is getting longer than intended, so tl;dr:
1) I don't think Grievous could pretty much ever beat Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, or several other PT standouts under neutral conditions, so I take issue with the suggestion that he's on their level.
2) Since that probably has little to do with your argument as it pertains to the OP, sorry. Nitpicks.


Technicality?


You're right, I forgot he runs away in Revenge of the Sith, too. Not sarcasm. I was thinking that duel was more instructive than those dozen+ that are never completed under versus terms, but technically neither was this one.



Math? I've got exactly 2:10 to 2:34. So actually less than twenty five seconds.

Breaks his defenses, is a hairsbreadth from slicing through his head, and doesn't actually touch him. Obi-Wan almost gets shot to rags by a bunch of battle droids in Labyrinth of Evil; Mace Windu almost falls to Jango Fett and almost takes a bolt to the head in Shatterpoint. I would think close calls are sort of par for the course in swordfights and CQC in general.

no pun intended.


Attribute it to what seems fair, I won't try to reconcile disparities between the novel and film. But whatever happens happens in two distinct engagements. Given how Grievous learns I'm not inclined to believe he fell for a trick twice. And "not long after?" Come on, dude. The rest of the duel consists of literally two swings and a Force-push.


Dooku mused that there were moments in which he was sometimes hard-pressed, but he also pities Grievous should he have to fight "any" of the Council members, explicitly naming some of the big guns. He preaches finesse, artfulness, economy and some other stuff over power.

Then again, earlier he expresses the belief that "few, if any" Jedi could overcome Grievous' combat skills, so... I dunno.

I also don't know where everybody falls on the non-contradictory elements of the CWC, but there he counsels the General to have "fear, surprise, and intimidation" on his side against "the best of the Jedi," and to retreat should any of those advantages be missing. He says Grievous must "break" them before engaging them or victory isn't ensured, which I guess taken literally indicates that Dooku does think he could have a chance.


That's fine. Perhaps this is semantics, but it's the "on par" bit we're disagreeing on. In versus terms I've usually considered parity (not owing to circumstance) to indicate that there's actually a decent chance that either character could win. I don't think the evidence suggests that one on one Grievous could ever beat Obi-Wan or Kit Fisto, let alone Mace Windu, so I don't consider him to be on their level(s).

I'd argue that Grievous fighting Mace to a stalemate while significantly disadvantaged by the terrain would be considered "on par".

However, as I said before, it's irrelevant. You are adding to my initial point: Grievous was capable of challenging the likes of Dooku, Mace, and Obi-Wan in a one on one lightsaber duel, and as you said, in single combat, the B-Team members are all better than he.

Revan would have to be significantly greater than the likes of Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi to outmatch these three for a majority.

Grievous was evidently still battered when he fought Fisto. I'm also given to understand that his duel was significantly earlier on in Grievous's experience as a cyborg.

Originally posted by NewGuy01



I don't see how this is relevant--Grievous is dirty, it's part of his usual fighting style.

Yeah but getting help is playing dirty. That doesn't make Grievous a better fencer or anything, so pointless discussing that.



Originally posted by NewGuy01

What? Sure, Obi-Wan held the dominant edge after scoring a strike that took off a couple of Grievous's arms, but Grievous definitely wasn't a sitting duck in that fight.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-

The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it.


Are you high? Kenobi completely thrashed Grievous in ROTS. And that was Grievous at his peak mind you, since he was getting trained by Dooku through TCW, and even references such in the ROTS battle despite having fought Kenobi many times before.

Movie trumps the novel any day.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, but I would argue that Ventress is in the same caliber as Kenobi. I'd also point out that Ventress was influenced by the residual dark power provided by Dathomiir.

Grievous has defeated Ventress before.


It doesn't matter, because Filoni made it clear that Grievous is no match for a Jedi of Ventress's caliber, dark side nexus or not. Remember she never even once used Force TK on him.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Grievous has never called on his MagnaGuards to gain an advantage against Obi-Wan. I'm not exactly sure how whether or not he flees is relevant to the fairness of a fight?






Yes he has. In "Grievous Intrigue." And he still lost to Kenobi.


Originally posted by Eminence
This is getting longer than intended, so tl;dr:
1) I don't think Grievous could pretty much ever beat Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, or several other PT standouts under neutral conditions, so I take issue with the suggestion that he's on their level.



As do I.

In what I consider to be ambiguously canon material, Ventress TKed Grievous, and he sprang back up.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
In what I consider to be ambiguously canon material, Ventress TKed Grievous, and he sprang back up.


Like you said it's ambigous canon, but again doesn't really matter, because the higher canon (TCW) made it pretty clear that a Jedi Council level member would dominate Grievous with TK.

Koth does it, Fisto does it and Kenobi does it. It would be silly to think Ventress couldn't do it, as her force powers are probably greater than any of those three.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
In what I consider to be ambiguously canon material, Ventress TKed Grievous, and he sprang back up.


Like you said it's ambigous canon, but again doesn't really matter, because the higher canon (TCW) made it pretty clear that a Jedi Council level member would dominate Grievous with TK.

Koth does it, Fisto does it and Kenobi constantly does it. It would be silly to think Ventress couldn't do it, as her force powers are probably greater than any of those three.

Double post?

Oh yeah.. Didn't even realise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We've been over this several times yet you refuse to accept Kenobi is clearly beyond Grievous even though Dave Filoni had made that clear.


And you're just as wrong now as you were then. Filoni's made it clear that Grievous is a threat to Kenobi in combat by portraying it in his own series, otherwise Obi Wan wouldn't have consistently struggled with the cybor. If Filoni has said otherwise, then he's contradicting what is displayed for us onscreen.


-Ja7rgrRNHU


^Grievous barely interfered when Kenobi was facing the magnaguards. From 1:55 to 2:36 was a one on one match between Kenobi and GG, with Grievous holding the upper hand throughout the fight (which is far too long for Kenobi to be considered "beyond" Grievous) until Obi Wan used the force on him. There was also plenty of room for Obi Wan to maneuver. He wasn't as limited as you are suggesting. Hell, their fight in ROTS didn't even take up as much room. Don't act as if Obi Wan requires a football field worth of room.


Rn7o_Cz9rVs


^This fight has Grievous giving Kenobi a ragdoll treatment, which, again, wouldn't have happened if Kenobi was "beyond" GG. In fact, Grievous just stands there talking while he had Kenobi floored, giving Obi Wan the opportunity to use a powerful force push on him.

m1BqZzIWSW0


^About 2:37. This fight actually had Kenobi relying on outside help instead of Grievous, which was more help than the magnaguards have ever provided Grievous.

Then there is their clash in "The Deserter," which had Grievous getting the best of Obi Wan, leaving Kenobi down long enough for him to escape from republic forces.

You can argue until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that Grievous has consistently posed a threat to Kenobi in saber combat, and that Kenobi has never decisively beat GG up until ROTS.

Also, I don't know why you always bring up Ahsoka's duel with GG, as it doesn't change the consistent struggle Kenobi has had with him. Perhaps GG wasn't taking her seriously as Newguy pointed out, or maybe it was a low showing for GG. Either way, Obi Wan's struggles against Grievous are far too consistent to ignore.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And you're just as wrong now as you were then. Filoni's made it clear that Grievous is a threat to Kenobi in combat by portraying it in his own series, otherwise Obi Wan wouldn't have consistently struggled with the cybor. If Filoni has said otherwise, then he's contradicting what is displayed for us


Lol ok you know better than the director of TCW on what he was portraying.

Yes he struggled in the past, but only due to circumstances. Filoni had made it clear that the reason Kenobi battered Grievous in ROTS was because that was the first time he got him out in the open for a fair one on one.

He's also stated he doesn't think Grievous can match a Jedi of Ventress' s caliber.

So your the one who can deny it until your blue in the face, and keep praising the odd kick Grievous gets on Kenobi before Kenobi smashes him and Grievous runs like a b****. It doesn't change the fact that Filoni's words and Kenobi vs Grievous's final battle in ROTS prove Kenobi was simply above Grievous and by fair margin.

Wow, that derailed fast.

I consider Revan to be on a similar level as Saesee and Fisto as a duelist, with all three of them he cannot compete by the blade purely.
His Force abilities outrank the trio individually, but if Revan faces all three at once he cannot compete once more. Saesee's telekinesis is comparable to Revan's so with the help of Kit and Agen they can overwhelm Revan.
In terms of speed, Kit>Revan>Agen>Saesee.
In terms of strenght, Saesee>Kit>Agen>Revan.
In terms of durability, Agen>Saesee>Revan>Kit
So the Team should take this with little difficulty.

Revan dies.

Still can't handle 3 on 1 for a majority.

I'm gonna vouch for my dear friend Revan.

I'm vouching for Revan too.

It's not really much a contest. Revan nearly beat a much more powerful team.

I'm unsure.

Revan can ragdoll Agen immediately, and with prep/time to raise shields he can take some victories.

He has better dueling feats than Tiin, so he could conceivably hold his own/beat him in a duel. But versus Tiin/Fisto at once it becomes hard to say, I guess Revan could take one out with the force or something.

You put B-Team over Marr, Shan, Hero, Theron, Jakarro, Beniko, Vizsla, and a Force spirit?

Somehow that wouldn't surprise me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You put B-Team over Marr, Shan, Hero, Theron, Jakarro, Beniko, Vizsla, and a Force spirit?

I was speaking in terms of the fight, and already said he could take one out via the force.

And no he is above any of the folks in B team. Everyone else aside from Hero and Shan possibly they're above.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As quoted by my god damn thread all about Revan's feats in which you are so unintelligent you can't even read. looking at ant own these guys is awesome. Revan wins with a very high level of difficulty

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Somehow that wouldn't surprise me.

Says the guy that put a weak duelist like Bane over Caedus, Windu, and just about anyone who has better feats than beating two trainees.

Originally posted by WollfMyth
I consider Revan to be on a similar level as Saesee and Fisto as a duelist, with all three of them he cannot compete by the blade purely.
His Force abilities outrank the trio individually, but if Revan faces all three at once he cannot compete once more. Saesee's telekinesis is comparable to Revan's so with the help of Kit and Agen they can overwhelm Revan.
In terms of speed, Kit>Revan>Agen>Saesee.
In terms of strenght, Saesee>Kit>Agen>Revan.
In terms of durability, Agen>Saesee>Revan>Kit
So the Team should take this with little difficulty.

Fisto is far above Saesee as a duelist, I think, regardless, Revan looks like the kinda guy who's an Ataru master because of his Acrobatics in Saber combat, and he obviously has experience with Soresu, because of his highly praised defence in Saber Combat, obviously not comparable to Kenobi, but pretty high up there.

(Pure speculation)

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
the three jedi master's that fell before the emperor palpatine Vs the Reborn/Foundry Revan. in Revan's Foundry. having fought an era of strife revan was highly proficient at fighting multiple enemies at once; as he showed us during his fight with the imperial strike team which was made up of various warriors of great renowned and also when he single - handedly took on two Terentatek beast in the tomb of Naga Sadow

Lightsabers
Force Powers
All-out
*Bonus Match* Revan Vs Mace Windu alone after a few hours of prep

No matter how bad they are.. Revan win "golden era" Jedi don't fight sith very often.. QUasi not at all...

Is one of them have the power of the empeor wrath????

The only one with a decent potential is kit fisto bt his ****ed in anyway...
How coul they broke Revan defense??
Or resist to Revan force attacks????

The two others are quasi nameless !

Windu... More interesting more challenge haaa !!
Vaapad his very dangerous for Revan.. and he his more effectiv is force dueling !
But I'm gonna to stand with Revan.
Juts not in the ligth saber figth...

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Fisto is far above Saesee as a duelist, I think, regardless, Revan looks like the kinda guy who's an Ataru master because of his Acrobatics in Saber combat, and he obviously has experience with Soresu, because of his highly praised defence in Saber Combat, obviously not comparable to Kenobi, but pretty high up there.

(Pure speculation)
Soresu and ataru are just first Revan ligth saber technic learned as a Jedi !
He had devlopped also his won Djemso and shien so with that.
His Djem so is just an extention of soresu but with deadly counter attack lead with spead and precision with force speed (physical and mental acceleration.)

I'd say this thread depends on if you think Act II Nox, Wrath, Cipher and Champ is less than, equal to or better than the B team.

Nah. Better example is if you think Marr, Shan, Shae, Theron, Hero, Jakarro, and Beniko is less than, equal to, or better than the B team.

Nope.

Uh, yep. Your example is against a tortured, conflicted Revan.

But the other team are Jedi. And golden era Jedi with a restrited use of the force in dueling !
They have quasi no chance ! They never fgth to there maximaum potential unlike sith of the Revan time.
And Wrath beat a dark council memeber cappble of erasing of the map entire city just alone... and he his the equivalent of the HoT, who defeat emperor voice....
You have to be kidding me than Kit fisto is superior to the emperor wrath...

You two do realize this Foundry Revan and not fan-service Revan right? This dude is as he was during the attack on the foundry. lol Fan-service revan wasn't even out back then

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, yep. Your example is against a tortured, conflicted Revan.

Your example doesn't exist yet. And this is Foundry Revan.

Revan ragdolls the trio while he Force Folds Mace into the battle, and pulls the Jedi's essence out of him for a nice snack for Vitiate.