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Vision, Simon, Namor & Carol Duke it out to see who the top tier 2 avenger is.

On average? Probably Namor.

Originally posted by zopzop
On average? Probably Namor.

Isn't Simon physically more powerful than Namor? Zop I assume you are saying this because Namor is more impressive in combat right?

Simon

Originally posted by dial J for Josh
Isn't Simon physically more powerful than Namor? Zop I assume you are saying this because Namor is more impressive in combat right?
Simon? More physically powerful than Namor?! Where did you get this idea?

In terms of strength feats, Namor destroys Simon. In terms of combat feats aka fights, Namor is superior to Simon.

Namor got this.

Fishman

Na Na got this

Namor!!

Namor might win, but the scans of Wondy cold cocking him never gets old.

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/5746/namor155msq9.jpg

I don't know the other characters as well.

But captain marvel (marvel) has enough energy power to effortlessly blow planets.

And DC is basically magic superman

Originally posted by tkitna
Namor might win, but the scans of Wondy cold cocking him never gets old.

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/5746/namor155msq9.jpg
Suckershot.

Originally posted by Cinder
I don't know the other characters as well.

But captain marvel (marvel) has enough energy power to effortlessly blow planets.

And DC is basically magic superman



I believe this is Ms.Marvel and not Shazam Captain Marvel in this fight.

Originally posted by Supermex
I believe this is Ms.Marvel and not Shazam Captain Marvel in this fight.

Normal form, or energy absorby form?

vision's solar gem would be a big problem for namor. intangibility would be an issue for ALL of them though maybe carol could somehow find an answer. i think vision could take her out though with a hand through her brain or heart. that would leave simon vs vision. they've fought at least 3 times that i know of without a winner but simon has survived vision's phasing a couple times though he was hurt badly. i'd go with vision over simon eventually, but simon could beat him if vision isn't smart.

Originally posted by leonidas
vision's solar gem would be a big problem for namor. intangibility would be an issue for ALL of them though maybe carol could somehow find an answer. i think vision could take her out though with a hand through her brain or heart. that would leave simon vs vision. they've fought at least 3 times that i know of without a winner but simon has survived vision's phasing a couple times though he was hurt badly. i'd go with vision over simon eventually, but simon could beat him if vision isn't smart.
Namor has survived the combined assault of THREE Human Torches, one of which was Hector Hammand (I believe). If he withstood that (yeah he passed out), there's NOTHING Vision is doing to him with that Solar Gem that Namor won't shrug off.

Namor's also absolutely HUMILIATED Simon in a fight, using him as a bat to club Sentry and Ares. I'm talking Evil Mary Marvel "Thwapping" Kyle level humiliation here.

Namor is stronger (see the Hydrobase instances) and has held his own vs top tier CL100s.

On average, Namor absolutely dominates anyone in this thread.

Both Vision & Carol are capable of powerful heat attacksOriginally posted by Cinder
Normal form, or energy absorby form? Base Carol is a powerful energy sponge, but I'm assuming you mean Binary? Base Carol here.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Both Vision & Carol are capable of powerful heat attacks
More powerful than the combined assault of THREE Human Torches (one of which was Hector Hammond)?

Vision or Ms Marvel isn't doing anything "heat" based to Namor. In fact, Namor would DECIMATE Ms Marvel in a fight and by decimate, I mean they'd be scrapping bloody bits of her off the pavement.

Originally posted by zopzop
Namor has survived the combined assault of THREE Human Torches, one of which was Hector Hammand (I believe). If he withstood that (yeah he passed out), there's NOTHING Vision is doing to him with that Solar Gem that Namor won't shrug off.

Namor's also absolutely HUMILIATED Simon in a fight, using him as a bat to club Sentry and Ares. I'm talking Evil Mary Marvel "Thwapping" Kyle level humiliation here.

Namor is stronger (see the Hydrobase instances) and has held his own vs top tier CL100s.

On average, Namor absolutely dominates anyone in this thread.

I'm proud of you.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm proud of you.
Phuckin' Abhi wore me down. Going by feats and fights, Namor is the winner here.

Namor has already bitchslapped Carol before.

Originally posted by zopzop
Phuckin' Abhi wore me down. Going by feats and fights, Namor is the winner here.


And I always laugh at this scene.

http://i.imgur.com/8ACOaFs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bFowCIr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0rWg484.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Yw8FhU5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E7spJyK.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
More powerful than the combined assault of THREE Human Torches (one of which was Hector Hammond)?

Vision or Ms Marvel isn't doing anything "heat" based to Namor. In fact, Namor would DECIMATE Ms Marvel in a fight and by decimate, I mean they'd be scrapping bloody bits of her off the pavement. Damn Zop, I wasn't insinuating anyone won just replying to this postOriginally posted by leonidas
vision's solar gem would be a big problem for namor. intangibility would be an issue for ALL of them though maybe carol could somehow find an answer. i think vision could take her out though with a hand through her brain or heart. that would leave simon vs vision. they've fought at least 3 times that i know of without a winner but simon has survived vision's phasing a couple times though he was hurt badly. i'd go with vision over simon eventually, but simon could beat him if vision isn't smart.

So to recap :
Namor has already smacked down Simon
Namor has already smacked down Ms. Marvel

That leaves only Vision. Vision is not beating Namor h2h, Vision's solar gem isn't doing jack to Namor (he's withstood far worse). That only leaves phasing. Good luck with that.

Or splitting apart into nano Visions

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Or splitting apart into nano Visions Originally posted by zopzop
Good luck with that.

Vision is vulnerable to electrical attacks while phased. Guess who can shoot electricity through his body?

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/Defenders052f.jpg

Kinda an odd choice of scan?

Seems like pis that electricity hurts vision when he is make of plastics. Idk.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Kinda an odd choice of scan?

Seems like pis that electricity hurts vision when he is make of plastics. Idk.
frusty

I'm of the belief that WM is more powerful than Namor. He was created to be IMO.
The way WM took it to Thor, Rulk, etc. I say he is more powerful.
A well written Vision would destroy all of these characters though. Seriously!

Originally posted by zopzop
frusty ...

Are you saying plastic is a good conductor?
Or
Vision isn't made of Plastics?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
...

Are you saying plastic is a good conductor?
Or
Vision isn't made of Plastics?
Vision is made up of an alloy, not plastic.

Unless its been changed/Retconned Vision has always been made of plastic.

Current Vision might not be post Ultron upgrade but it hasn't been said IIRC.

Originally posted by zopzop
Simon? More physically powerful than Namor?! Where did you get this idea?

In terms of strength feats, Namor destroys Simon. In terms of combat feats aka fights, Namor is superior to Simon.

Namor got this. Probably from him overpowering Rulk.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Unless its been changed/Retconned Vision has always been made of plastic.

Current Vision might not be post Ultron upgrade but it hasn't been said IIRC.
Magneto said he was made up of an alloy after he magnetically controlled him just before AvX.

Was it a Bendis book?

I guess he could be now, but more than likely the writer just never read much of the West Coast Avengers.

Namor or Vision(pre)

Namor has edge.

Current vision is on an insane level

what has current vision done?
also if vision can severely hurt nefaria i bet he can knock out namor

Not much, he has highly increased Technopathy but that's it minus the Nanotech

Namor gonna take it

Originally posted by pym-ftw
...

Are you saying plastic is a good conductor?
Or
Vision isn't made of Plastics?
bash
Originally posted by SamZED
Probably from him overpowering Rulk.
ONE SHOWING. Compare this to Venom manhandling him, yet getting manhandled by Namor (despite Venom using a weapon to weaken Namor before hand and taking Namor by surprise). Or their fights with Hercules. Simon gets his faced busted up, Namor more than holds his own. Or their fights with the Hulk. Simon used karate to hold his own vs Merged Hulk, while Namor has actually beaten Savage Hulk. Or when Namor "thwapped" Simon despite Simon having Sentry AND Ares helping him.

Originally posted by zopzop
So to recap :
Namor has already smacked down Simon
Namor has already smacked down Ms. Marvel

That leaves only Vision. Vision is not beating Namor h2h, Vision's solar gem isn't doing jack to Namor (he's withstood far worse). That only leaves phasing. Good luck with that.

I'm literally shocked. Welcome back to the Namor team.

Originally posted by zopzop
Simon? More physically powerful than Namor?! Where did you get this idea?

In terms of strength feats, Namor destroys Simon. In terms of combat feats aka fights, Namor is superior to Simon.

Namor got this.

Aw ok I knew how powerful Namor was but only knew the most notable feats Simon has done. So Namor is a low tier herald right? Or at his best would you place him at mid?

namor is NOT far more powerful than simon. at all. would i take namor over simon in a straight brawl? yes, but each fight would be very close. and vision's gem would certainly play a part in this. heat can and HAS harmed and weakened namor many many times.....just because he has a couple feats that show he can fight through it (wouldn't mind the scans though--are they in the respect thread?) doesn't mean in any way that vision's (who has some good gem feats) heat attack would be useless against him. especially if he and carol worked together in this to take him down. at max density vision is a match for simon, which means he could def go h2h with namor, though again he'd lose eventually. but he has more than just h2h to rely on and a couple of phases through namor's brain (an attack that ko'd immortal hercules, btw.....) or through namor's heart (he can literally grab his heart and crush it, something he hasn't done but has threatened in the past...) would end namor imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
namor is NOT far more powerful than simon. at all. would i take namor over simon in a straight brawl? yes, but each fight would be very close. and vision's gem would certainly play a part in this. heat can and HAS harmed and weakened namor many many times.....just because he has a couple feats that show he can fight through it (wouldn't mind the scans though--are they in the respect thread?) doesn't mean in any way that vision's (who has some good gem feats) heat attack would be useless against him. especially if he and carol worked together in this to take him down. at max density vision is a match for simon, which means he could def go h2h with namor, though again he'd lose eventually. but he has more than just h2h to rely on and a couple of phases through namor's brain (an attack that ko'd immortal hercules, btw.....) or through namor's heart (he can literally grab his heart and crush it, something he hasn't done but has threatened in the past...) would end namor imo.
Vision's heat gem is doing nothing. Trust me on this. No amount of heat it can produce would come anywhere NEAR three Human Torches unloading on Namor. So........yeah. Vision's only hope is some sort of phasing attack but I'd still take Namor over him.

Regarding Simon and Namor. Multiple examples were given where Namor dominated or did far better against common foes than Simon has. Namor also "thwapped" Simon despite Simon having help.

In terms of raw strength, Namor destroys Simon. Simon's best feat is straining his @$$ off to balance Hydrobase on that pillar it was on and even then Invisible Woman had to lend a hand. Namor lifted the damn thing from the seafloor by himself.

Ms. Marvel is a non factor here. He'd backhand her into a coma.

Originally posted by leonidas
namor is NOT far more powerful than simon. at all. would i take namor over simon in a straight brawl? yes, but each fight would be very close. and vision's gem would certainly play a part in this. heat can and HAS harmed and weakened namor many many times.....just because he has a couple feats that show he can fight through it (wouldn't mind the scans though--are they in the respect thread?) doesn't mean in any way that vision's (who has some good gem feats) heat attack would be useless against him. especially if he and carol worked together in this to take him down. at max density vision is a match for simon, which means he could def go h2h with namor, though again he'd lose eventually. but he has more than just h2h to rely on and a couple of phases through namor's brain (an attack that ko'd immortal hercules, btw.....) or through namor's heart (he can literally grab his heart and crush it, something he hasn't done but has threatened in the past...) would end namor imo.

This is even better.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsAvengers57403.jpg.html

Originally posted by carver9
This is even better.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsAvengers57403.jpg.html
ROFL! Punched in the back of the head while "intangible". Luckily for Namor he's not a slow, earth bound brick.

Originally posted by zopzop
ROFL! Punched in the back of the head while "intangible". Luckily for Namor he's not a slow, earth bound brick.

i posted that to show his intangibility working on durable characters like Classic Jugs. I still think Namor wins this though. His fts are too high.

Originally posted by carver9
i posted that to show his intangibility working on durable characters like Classic Jugs. I still think Namor wins this though. His fts are too high.
This isn't the first time this has happened (affecting Vision while he is "intangible".

Vision tried to do that to Thor and Thor shoved Mjolnir in his chest. LOL.

Namor got this.

Originally posted by zopzop
Vision's heat gem is doing nothing. Trust me on this. No amount of heat it can produce would come anywhere NEAR three Human Torches unloading on Namor. So........yeah. Vision's only hope is some sort of phasing attack but I'd still take Namor over him.

Regarding Simon and Namor. Multiple examples were given where Namor dominated or did far better against common foes than Simon has. Namor also "thwapped" Simon despite Simon having help.

In terms of raw strength, Namor destroys Simon. Simon's best feat is straining his @$$ off to balance Hydrobase on that pillar it was on and even then Invisible Woman had to lend a hand. Namor lifted the damn thing from the seafloor by himself.

Ms. Marvel is a non factor here. He'd backhand her into a coma.

zop, i don't have to trust you--i've seen heat weaken and harm him numerous times. no trust necessary. you do like to cherry-pick that one feat though. i know however, should i show a couple of times where heat worked, you'd say i was lowballing. on average, he absolutely does NOT withstand '3 human torches'.

their strength feats will go to namor, but 1on1 battles? not nearly as one-sided as you want to make it out to be. simon has gone toe-to-toe with almost every heavyweight in marvel and done well. how many times has namor barely (or not at all) handled thing.....?

don't highball. namor would beat simon. it would NOT be lop-sided by any stretch of the imagination.

this is also a 4-man battle. it would be easy for vision to attack anyone at anytime while they were fighting someone. carver made a good find with juggs. but there's no reason it needs to be a back attack. at all. namor swings, vision is intangible, phase attack. simple. most survive or handle it because he doesn't WANT to kill or risk killing. if vision doesn't want to be hit, namor simply cannot hit him and it would be a draw. easier to see a phase attack working before that happens. if vision fights smart, uses his heat and stealth, he should take this in the end.

Originally posted by leonidas
zop, i don't have to trust you--i've seen heat weaken and harm him numerous times. no trust necessary. you do like to cherry-pick that one feat though. i know however, should i show a couple of times where heat worked, you'd say i was lowballing. on average, he absolutely does NOT withstand '3 human torches'.

their strength feats will go to namor, but 1on1 battles? not nearly as one-sided as you want to make it out to be. simon has gone toe-to-toe with almost every heavyweight in marvel and done well. how many times has namor barely (or not at all) handled thing.....?

don't highball. namor would beat simon. it would NOT be lop-sided by any stretch of the imagination.

this is also a 4-man battle. it would be easy for vision to attack anyone at anytime while they were fighting someone. carver made a good find with juggs. but there's no reason it needs to be a back attack. at all. namor swings, vision is intangible, phase attack. simple. most survive or handle it because he doesn't WANT to kill or risk killing. if vision doesn't want to be hit, namor simply cannot hit him and it would be a draw. easier to see a phase attack working before that happens. if vision fights smart, uses his heat and stealth, he should take this in the end.
Namor has withstood heat attacks before. That much isn't even debatable. His high is beyond anything Vision is capable of producing. Hell his AVERAGE vs heat attacks is greater than any heat Vision has produced on panel. He's fought Human Torches (plural) throughout his career for phucks sake and survived and won.

Regarding Vision phasing. He's been affected by physical objects at least TWICE despite being 'intangible'. Freaking Hulk punched him in the back of the head while he was phasing.

Compare their fights with common foes. Namor > Simon. By a comfortable margin too. Then compare their fights against each other. Thwap! Thwap! Thwap! Thwap! Thwap! Thwap!

Let me make this easy for you. Vs Common Foes :
Venom
Namor beat the phuck out of Venom despite Venom getting the drop on him and weakening him with a specially devised weapon.

Simon was getting manhandled by Venom.

Hercules
Namor has fought Hercules to a standstill on multiple occasions.

Simon got his faced smashed in by Herc.

Abomination
Namor fought him on even terms. Neither side really gaining an advantage.

Simon was getting his sh|t pushed in (black eye, bloody nose, bruised face) till he used some powerlines to fry Abom.

Hulk
Namor has actual victories over Savage Hulk (seen by many as being more powerful than Prof Hulk).

Simon held his own for a little while vs Prof Hulk (Grey Hulk humiliated him though).

Vs Each Other. Simon got Namor with a sucker punch once. Later Simon, with help from Sentry AND Ares, couldn't handle Namor. Namor humiliated Simon using him as a battering ram to attack Ares and Sentry "Evil Mary Marvel" style.

Get it now? Namor is simply superior to Simon going by on panel fights and feats. Don't believe me, go hunting in his Respect thread or maybe Abhi will take pity and link the relevant scans. I'm done here.

You no longer hate Namor? What happened?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You no longer hate Namor? What happened?
Phuckin' Abhi wore me down.

I still think Ult Namor > 616 Namor. But 616 Namor isn't the joke I thought he was.

Originally posted by zopzop


Regarding Simon and Namor. Multiple examples were given where Namor dominated or did far better against common foes than Simon has. Namor also "thwapped" Simon despite Simon having help.

In terms of raw strength, Namor destroys Simon. Simon's best feat is straining his @$$ off to balance Hydrobase on that pillar it was on and even then Invisible Woman had to lend a hand. Namor lifted the damn thing from the seafloor by himself.



What common foes are we talking about? Simon has thrown down with, and damaged Ultron. He's went toe to toe with Nefaria. He caught a damn skyscraper that Nefaria thew. He's whipped Abomination. Took Thor and Hercules to the limit. Etc,,,.

Just because he had a low showing in the horribly written Avengers/Invaders series and had some writer lowball him again on some lifting feat doesn't mean Namor is more powerful then him. You even went as far as saying that Namor destroys Simon in raw strength and that's simply not the case (I believe everybody is aware of this). If anything, its a coin toss regarding a fight between the two of them.

Sorry, just read your above post, but it doesn't do much for me. They both go back and forth with feats (with Simon being a background character more often then not). I just don't see it as decisive as you do.

Originally posted by zopzop
Namor has withstood heat attacks before. That much isn't even debatable. His high is beyond anything Vision is capable of producing. Hell his AVERAGE vs heat attacks is greater than any heat Vision has produced on panel. He's fought Human Torches (plural) throughout his career for phucks sake and survived and won.

Regarding Vision phasing. He's been affected by physical objects at least TWICE despite being 'intangible'. Freaking Hulk punched him in the back of the head while he was phasing.



Namor isn't going to be affected by heat (high showing) and is going to manhandle vision phasing (low showings?)

You need to take a step back.

Originally posted by zopzop

Vs Each Other. Simon got Namor with a sucker punch once. Later Simon, with help from Sentry AND Ares, couldn't handle Namor. Namor humiliated Simon using him as a battering ram to attack Ares and Sentry "Evil Mary Marvel" style.

Get it now? Namor is simply superior to Simon going by on panel fights and feats. Don't believe me, go hunting in his Respect thread or maybe Abhi will take pity and link the relevant scans. I'm done here.

Lol. Please quit using the Avengers/Invaders story as ammo. It was a horribly written story that holds no relevance. It even had the Sentry flying away scared of the Human Torch. Namor is in battle against the Sentry, Simon, and Ares and when he starts using Simon like a baseball bat, Sentry is nowhere to be seen. Are we to believe that Namor knocked him out or BFR'd him long enough for this to happen when in another battle between the two of them, Namor was incapable of emitting any offensive action at all? The Sentry totally dominated him as it should be after he got just a wee bit pissed. See how that works?

Originally posted by snowdragon
Namor isn't going to be affected by heat (high showing) and is going to manhandle vision phasing (low showings?)

You need to take a step back.
That wasn't the only showing. He also withstood Sunfire's point blank attack in the face and wasn't KOed. There are more examples.
Originally posted by tkitna
Lol. Please quit using the Avengers/Invaders story as ammo. It was a horribly written story that holds no relevance. It even had the Sentry flying away scared of the Human Torch. Namor is in battle against the Sentry, Simon, and Ares and when he starts using Simon like a baseball bat, Sentry is nowhere to be seen. Are we to believe that Namor knocked him out or BFR'd him long enough for this to happen when in another battle between the two of them, Namor was incapable of emitting any offensive action at all? The Sentry totally dominated him as it should be after he got just a wee bit pissed. See how that works?
Which instance are you talking about? The other time they fought, nothing was accomplished and Sentry just flew away.

Does heat affect Namor? Yes

Can Vision phase to prevent a physical confrontaion? Yes

Can Namor beat Vision? Yes

In this fight with multiple enemies and Vision able to pick his moment then the cards are against Namor, this isn't a one on one.

This is a fight for Vision to win.

Well if Vision tries to go intangible and phase through Simon, both would get KOED by the feedback.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well if Vision tries to go intangible and phase through Simon, both would get KOED by the feedback.
Exactly. If anything Vision will get KOed first.

People seem to forget that back in the mid 80s a bloodlusted Vision tried to kill Colossus by doing just that. He stuck his arms into him and rapidly increased his density. Guess what happened? Both died.

Relatively recently, in an issue of the X-men, when they needed someone to investigate a dangerous portal, they sent Namor because he was the most durable. They said this despite the fact that Colossus was right there (trying to find the scan in Namor's respect thread).

So..........if Vision killed himself and Colossus while going all out. How well would he do vs someone that's more durable than Colossus? Common sense would say not too well.

Originally posted by zopzop

Which instance are you talking about? The other time they fought, nothing was accomplished and Sentry just flew away.

The fight where Namor basically admitted he had no chance of winning, but was going to try anyways and Sentry beat him up one side of the city to the next. Your right though, there was no conclusion to the fight, but there usually isn't when two heros go at it. Surely you don't think Namor can hang with a no nonsense Sentry do you?

That's not the point though I suppose. All i'm saying is that you shouldn't be putting so much stock in the Avengers/Invaders book when most of the interaction between the heros, didn't pay out the usual results. It was horrible writing.

Originally posted by tkitna
The fight where Namor basically admitted he had no chance of winning, but was going to try anyways and Sentry beat him up one side of the city to the next. Your right though, there was no conclusion to the fight, but there usually isn't when two heros go at it. Surely you don't think Namor can hang with a no nonsense Sentry do you?
Namor was doing just fine during that fight. As Sentry flew off, Namor was up and about (not even bloodied or bruised). That fight was both a) short and b) inconclusive.


Why is it horrible writing? Sentry was all over the place power wise (this is well documented). One day he's getting tooled by Hercules, the next he's no selling Terrax's Axe or Thing's punches.

The point isn't Sentry or his fluctuating power level, the point is that Namor tooled Simon. This isn't a fluke because when you compare their common foes, it's Namor that comes off looking FAR better. I was even kind enough to give examples. If you don't believe my take on those fights, just ask Abhi or Namorsubby or Carver or anyone else that saw the scans of those fights in context.

Namor is superior to Simon. Accept it and move on.

Yeah, if you really want to compare fight between Simon and Namor, compare these two scenes.

http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728836_NamorTheSub-Mariner59a.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728837_NamorTheSub-Mariner59b.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728838_NamorTheSub-Mariner59c.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728839_NamorTheSub-Mariner59d.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728840_NamorTheSub-Mariner59e.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728841_NamorTheSub-Mariner59f.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728842_NamorTheSub-Mariner59g.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728843_NamorTheSub-Mariner59h.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/18728844_NamorTheSub-Mariner59i.jpg


Mind you, this is just seconds after he fought a whole team of avengers including Hercules.

Simon vs Tyrannus controlled Abomination. This is the strongest version of Simon who overpowered Thor in a grappling contest.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787596-vs_abom1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787597-vs_abom2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787598-vs_abom3.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787599-vs_abom4.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787600-vs_abom5.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787601-vs_abom6.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787603-vs_abom7.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787604-vs_abom8.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787605-vs_abom9.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787606-vs_abom10.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35915/787607-vs_abom11.jpg

Well just say that Abomination was merciful and didn't gave Simon a wedgie.

Namor in water is slightly superior to Simon. But Namor out of water is definitely inferior to Simon. Heat dries water. Heat>>>cold air (which dries Namor). So Namor will get weakened by heat attacks as he has in the past, but he won't necessarily get koed by heat attacks.

WM is clearly stronger than Namor. It's not debatable really.

Originally posted by zopzop

Namor was doing just fine during that fight. As Sentry flew off, Namor was up and about (not even bloodied or bruised). That fight was both a) short and b) inconclusive.

Namor surviving the encounter was him doing just fine? He was unable to launch any kind of offense during the entire fight. Seriously, not once in any panel was he the aggressor except for the initial start of the fight. If the Sentry meant to kill him, Namor would have been dead.



Getting tooled by Hercules was a Sentry not even trying to fight, but to reason with him. It was also somewhat of a comedic relief. The horrible writing was the Human Torch scarring the Sentry off because of his fire. Seriously? Its been a well known fact that Sentrys power source isn't solar based and we're to believe a character as powerful as the Sentry is afraid of fire when he's been through nukes and worse? Also, Namor using Simon as a baseball bat like that was over the top, but even if it did happen, where was Sentry during that time? Maybe he was watching Captain America kick the crap out of Iron Man. We all know that's possible.



Namor got beat by the Thing recently. Underwater for cripes sake. I cant see the Thing ever doing anything like that to Simon. They both have low feats, but all i'm saying is that I don't feel Namor is obviously superior to Simon and I feel Wondermans highs are as good or better then Namors.



I don't feel he is. Just the opposite actually.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, if you really want to compare fight between Simon and Namor, compare these two scenes.



Well just say that Abomination was merciful and didn't gave Simon a wedgie.

So Wonderman's solo series (which was written like a watered down Two-In-One) fight with the Abomination is the heights at which we're aiming for? The Simon that keeps talking to himself during fights in fear of him dying again like a little kid? Simon is better then that. Plus the fact, half of Namors fight with Abomination was in the water. Its not a great example at all.

I will admit this though, Simon is a secondary character if nothing else and he is written to lose most of the time unfortunately. Most of his high end feats are losses, but still good examples. A couple things he's done that I don't feel Namor is capable of is throwing down with classic Nefaria. Yeah, Simon got whipped up, but he was able to hurt him and do well. Hyperion flew him through a planet and into a sun. I don't feel Namor could have survived that.

Here's a classic strength feat that I cant possibly see Namor repeating, but its a Marvel Two-In-One so take it with a grain of sand..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/wondythingstrength1cr.jpg


They both do well or hold their own against Thor, Hulk, Hercules, etc,,,and that's why I think its a close fight. I just give Simon the edge because I feel his high end stuff is better then Namors.

To each their own. Peace

I just want to mention that in the scan with Vision Jugs and Hulk, Vision has already materialized (we can see Jugs beeing hurt) so that's why he was affected.
Other than that affecting the likes of Nefaria and Jugs leads to the conclusion that he would affect Namor. Simon is resistant due to ionic form but that's just it.
Mjolnir affecting vision was addressed to its majical qualities if I'm not mistaken.
Not saying Vision wins for sure, but it's much closer than some people here think

Originally posted by zopzop
bash

ONE SHOWING. Compare this to Venom manhandling him, yet getting manhandled by Namor (despite Venom using a weapon to weaken Namor before hand and taking Namor by surprise). Or their fights with Hercules. Simon gets his faced busted up, Namor more than holds his own. Or their fights with the Hulk. Simon used karate to hold his own vs Merged Hulk, while Namor has actually beaten Savage Hulk. Or when Namor "thwapped" Simon despite Simon having Sentry AND Ares helping him. True, one showing doesn't change much, I just assumed WM has been upgraded after his return. Maybe I'm wrong as I haven't read anything with him since that fight with Rulk.
That was Gargan who fought Namor. He's like every symbiote's retarded younger brother.

Originally posted by tkitna
So Wonderman's solo series (which was written like a watered down Two-In-One) fight with the Abomination is the heights at which we're aiming for? The Simon that keeps talking to himself during fights in fear of him dying again like a little kid? Simon is better then that. Plus the fact, half of Namors fight with Abomination was in the water. Its not a great example at all.

I will admit this though, Simon is a secondary character if nothing else and he is written to lose most of the time unfortunately. Most of his high end feats are losses, but still good examples. A couple things he's done that I don't feel Namor is capable of is throwing down with classic Nefaria. Yeah, Simon got whipped up, but he was able to hurt him and do well. Hyperion flew him through a planet and into a sun. I don't feel Namor could have survived that.

Here's a classic strength feat that I cant possibly see Namor repeating, but its a Marvel Two-In-One so take it with a grain of sand..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/wondythingstrength1cr.jpg


They both do well or hold their own against Thor, Hulk, Hercules, etc,,,and that's why I think its a close fight. I just give Simon the edge because I feel his high end stuff is better then Namors.

To each their own. Peace
Its from West Cost Avengers actually.

I'm pretty sure Simon was historically supposed to be stronger than Namor by a noticeable margin. Aside from just the usual handbook entries which placed Simon well above Namor and Thing levels in strength, Marvel often made a point of having narration and characters comparing Wonder Man's strength with Thor's, making Simon out to be comparable to or just short of Thor. In fact in their first encounter Namor compared Simon's strength to Thor's.

And in that first encounter Simon really did take it to Namor and eventually knocked him clean out with a punch. Not many guys can do that to a Namor just out of water.

Sure, Simon was for many years portrayed as a pacifist, lacking confidence and holding back, and that's what got him into trouble in many fights. And he had low showings, same as Namor has (like Namor being beaten and, frankly, humiliated by the Thing underwater). For that reason I'd give the more vicious Namor a decent chance in a fight. But a confident Simon can win it.

As for Vision, Namor's showings against heat have been pretty variable too. That, plus strength and intangibility/density control is a pretty good combo for the Vision against the likes of Namor, and I'd take Vision there.

Vision has taken Ms/Captain Marvel out at least once, but that was a long time ago.

Vision and Wondy have had some decent throwdowns also.

Overall I'd take an average Wonderman or Vision to win, but the four are close.

Originally posted by basilisk
I'm pretty sure Simon was historically supposed to be stronger than Namor by a noticeable margin. Aside from just the usual handbook entries which placed Simon well above Namor and Thing levels in strength, Marvel often made a point of having narration and characters comparing Wonder Man's strength with Thor's, making Simon out to be comparable to or just short of Thor. In fact in their first encounter Namor compared Simon's strength to Thor's.

And in that first encounter Simon really did take it to Namor and eventually knocked him clean out with a punch. Not many guys can do that to a Namor just out of water.

Sure, Simon was for many years portrayed as a pacifist, lacking confidence and holding back, and that's what got him into trouble in many fights. And he had low showings, same as Namor has (like Namor being beaten and, frankly, humiliated by the Thing underwater). For that reason I'd give the more vicious Namor a decent chance in a fight. But a confident Simon can win it.

As for Vision, Namor's showings against heat have been pretty variable too. That, plus strength and intangibility/density control is a pretty good combo for the Vision against the likes of Namor, and I'd take Vision there.

Vision has taken Ms/Captain Marvel out at least once, but that was a long time ago.

Vision and Wondy have had some decent throwdowns also.

Overall I'd take an average Wonderman or Vision to win, but the four are close.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its from West Cost Avengers actually.

Your right. Thanks. My bad.

Honestly...even though Namor is a physical monster, I can't see Hulk overpowering Wonderman with one hand like he did Namor recently.

Originally posted by carver9
Honestly...even though Namor is a physical monster, I can't see Hulk overpowering Wonderman with one hand like he did Namor recently.
I know right? Just like I can't see Black Widow beating Namor like she did Simon. See how that works?

Originally posted by zopzop
I know right? Just like I can't see Black Widow beating Namor like she did Simon. See how that works?


Hhhhmmmm...Good point. Namor still wins but you have to admit, Wonderman has been displayed recently as top tier.

Originally posted by carver9
Hhhhmmmm...Good point. Namor still wins but you have to admit, Wonderman has been displayed recently as top tier.
Really? What has he done recently that makes you believe that? Aside from beating a known jobber (aka Rulk).

I mean Grey Hulk pushed Simon's sh|t in. Current Hulk would destroy him.

zop, i'd point out your lowballing vs highballing, but it seems pointless. meh, i'll do it anyway--namor can survive heat of 3 human torches, simon gets punked by black widow. throw in the dismissal of rulk and your whole argument is simultaneously hilarious, against forum rules and transparent. triple crown ftw.

Originally posted by leonidas
zop, i'd point out your lowballing vs highballing, but it seems pointless. meh, i'll do it anyway--namor can survive heat of 3 human torches, simon gets punked by black widow. throw in the dismissal of rulk and your whole argument is simultaneously hilarious, against forum rules and transparent. triple crown ftw.
Why complain? You apparently ignore on panel proof and make up scenarios in your mind.

I gave you multiple examples of Namor punking enemies that made Simon their b|tch. Not just random enemies, but common foes they went up against.

Evidently this doesn't matter because Simon beat a known jobber! And you wonder why I respond the way I do.

Originally posted by zopzop
I know right? Just like I can't see Black Widow beating Namor like she did Simon. See how that works? How did Black Widow beat Simon. What were the circumstances.

But you know that Simon is supposed to be significantly stronger than Namor right?
Namor is about Thing level (maybe slightly above) and Simon is supposed to be Thor level. Hulk is stronger than most on average so feats against him don't hold much evidence (since Hulk's strength is greatly variable).

Originally posted by h1a8
How did Black Widow beat Simon. What were the circumstances.

But you know that Simon is supposed to be significantly stronger than Namor right?
Namor is about Thing level (maybe slightly above) and Simon is supposed to be Thor level. Hulk is stronger than most on average so feats against him don't hold much evidence (since Hulk's strength is greatly variable).
You better back that claim up with on panel proof.

I'll wait.