Superman Is Dead......

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Sin I AM
Ok Clark is dead. No resurrection no retcon. Dead and never coming back. And that goes for his future selves, alternate universe selves. Who will replace him without skipping a beat and without changing their character to do so. And this means who can also replicate his feats and lead as he does.

-Pr-
Nobody.

God Cloth Seiya
Batman

Sin I AM
Originally posted by God Cloth Seiya
Batman

Bruce lacks the charisma. Id pick captain marvel if billy were older but im sure there is someone

dial J for Josh
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Bruce lacks the charisma. Id pick captain marvel if billy were older but im sure there is someone

No. Batman will do, obviously.

golem370
Orion?

God Cloth Seiya
But..............Batman gets all the bitches.

Stoic
Supergirl. She would mature due to Kal's death, and would become the new flagship to lead a new era.

StiltmanFTW
Martian Manhunter!



































laughing

zopzop
Originally posted by -Pr-
Nobody.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Martian Manhunter!



































laughing
http://c.imdoc.fr/1/humour/mdr/photo/1571422157/365600e5e/mdr-smiley-img.gif

Flyattractor
..................ok.....Why laugh at MM?

Hell he could shapeshift and now one "with the possible exception of Lois" no one would notice he is gone.

-Pr-
Someone would notice Superman's drop in power eventually.

Flyattractor
Dosen't MM have some kind of mass absorption power increase trick or was that Pre Nu?

abhilegend
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Martian Manhunter!



































laughing
http://i.imgur.com/JpRO4Lm.jpg

pym-ftw
No one, Doomsday curbs them all.

carver9
Captain Marvel isn't mature enough. Either Wonder Woman or the Martian would have to fill those shoes quick.

pym-ftw
Hal is probably the best bet.

abhilegend
My best bet would be Eradicator.

Digi
Batman makes a trade with the multiverse by kicking it in the shins, and gets Thor in exchange for existence's continued existence.

abhilegend
Thor is too weak to replace Superman. Krypto would do a better job than him.

uhuh

Time Immemorial
Originally posted by abhilegend
Thor is too weak to replace Superman. Krypto would do a better job than him.

uhuh

laughing laughing laughing laughing

You cannot kill the House of El!

Stoic
Per OP SIA isn't making this easy. For one, some of the Villains out there would likely change sides due to Kal's death. I wouldn't count on Ultraman to fill his shoes, because he often reminds me of the Wrecker in terms of intellect mixed with his asinine disposition. Majestic is way too blood thirsty, but I could see Zod take up the mantle of Earth's finest champion. Mon El, or Valor have simply never had the mind set to rise to the occasion thus being far below the bar in terms of charisma. In a comic, I could see Zod replace Superman in time. Also I think that Super girl could do it if she were to mature like I said before. Superman's death could probably do that to her, but it would depend on what was powerful enough to actually kill Superman. I would think anything capable of doing so would have some kind of negative effect on life on the planet.

meep-meep
No one. Lots of characters could replicate things he's done feat wise. But I doubt any of them would do what he's done for humanity. Batman has a similar mentality though.

Orrsome28
Originally posted by meep-meep
No one. Lots of characters could replicate things he's done feat wise. But I doubt any of them would do what he's done for humanity. Batman has a similar mentality though.

Made humanity so dependent that they can't fend for themselves? Became such an integral part of their existence that they can't function properly without him? I agree, no other hero would do that to this extent. They'd be better off without him anyway. His presence on Earth causes more problems than not. Without him Earth would still be the backwater planet it's meant to be; invisible to most outside influences.

I'm sure my disdain for how the character is treated is quite evident. Then again, this is just the lowly opinion of someone who refutes the 'great' House of El.

As for others, there are plenty who could step up to the task. Many effectively. Superman's absence would allow other characters to grow into their potential and deserved places. I can only imagine the joy many creative teams would feel knowing they had the room to explore their characters without the need to conform to decades of established, unwavering hierarchy.

Epicurus
Wonder Womyn. Martian Manjobber. Captains Atom or Marvel.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Orrsome28
Made humanity so dependent that they can't fend for themselves? Became such an integral part of their existence that they can't function properly without him? I agree, no other hero would do that to this extent. They'd be better off without him anyway. His presence on Earth causes more problems than not. Without him Earth would still be the backwater planet it's meant to be; invisible to most outside influences.

I'm sure my disdain for how the character is treated is quite evident. Then again, this is just the lowly opinion of someone who refutes the 'great' House of El.

As for others, there are plenty who could step up to the task. Many effectively. Superman's absence would allow other characters to grow into their potential and deserved places. I can only imagine the joy many creative teams would feel knowing they had the room to explore their characters without the need to conform to decades of established, unwavering hierarchy.
facepalm

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Ok Clark is dead. No resurrection no retcon. Dead and never coming back. And that goes for his future selves, alternate universe selves. Who will replace him without skipping a beat and without changing their character to do so. And this means who can also replicate his feats and lead as he does.

Abhi.

Epicurus
Bizarro.

Orrsome28
Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalm

I take that to mean at no point can you understand my reasoning. I suppose it's to be expected. I imagine you physically having this response anytime an opinion that isn't pro-Superman is put forth. It's likely an involuntary knee-jerk reaction developed after years of tenuous arguments falling on deaf ears.

I do believe I've unwittingly employed Ahbi bait. Seems to work every time. Hook, line and sinker. With that said, it's unfortunate that you fall short of game regulations and I have to set you free. It's probably for the best. Now you can swim upstream and spawn more of your Superman agenda. It's safe to say however, this isn't likely to be my last fishing expedition. I'll simply have to choose more wisely next time. Don't worry though, I'll continue to voice my opinions and, rest assured, you'll be here to oppose them. This seems to be the reality I've slipped into.

It's all okay though, Abhi. You certainly make these boards entertaining, something I'm most thankful for. thumb up

Back on point, I do wonder how many exactly of Superman's foes would be at all bothered with the Earth and it's people if he wasn't present. Obviously there are always exceptions, mostly in the form of extraterrestrial threats, especially with the long standing trend in fiction that the Earth is the crux of everything. Even in imaginary worlds we can't help but be self-involved. I also don't see too many of his domestic villains being more than the sum total of the JL.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Orrsome28
I take that to mean at no point can you understand my reasoning. I suppose it's to be expected. I imagine you physically having this response anytime an opinion that isn't pro-Superman is put forth. It's likely an involuntary knee-jerk reaction developed after years of tenuous arguments falling on deaf ears.

I do believe I've unwittingly employed Ahbi bait. Seems to work every time. Hook, line and sinker. With that said, it's unfortunate that you fall short of game regulations and I have to set you free. It's probably for the best. Now you can swim upstream and spawn more of your Superman agenda. It's safe to say however, this isn't likely to be my last fishing expedition. I'll simply have to choose more wisely next time. Don't worry though, I'll continue to voice my opinions and, rest assured, you'll be here to oppose them. This seems to be the reality I've slipped into.

It's all okay though, Abhi. You certainly make these boards entertaining, something I'm most thankful for. thumb up

Back on point, I do wonder how many exactly of Superman's foes would be at all bothered with the Earth and it's people if he wasn't present. Obviously there are always exceptions, mostly in the form of extraterrestrial threats, especially with the long standing trend in fiction that the Earth is the crux of everything. Even in imaginary worlds we can't help but be self-involved. I also don't see too many of his domestic villains being more than the sum total of the JL.
I just facepalmed at how stupid the whole line of reasoning is. You're entitled to your opinion though. I won't try to persuade out of it because you actually believe whatever you're saying.

Doesn't means its not stupid.

thumb up

Orrsome28
Originally posted by abhilegend
I just facepalmed at how stupid the whole line of reasoning is. You're entitled to your opinion though. I won't try to persuade out of it because you actually believe whatever you're saying.

Doesn't means its not stupid.

thumb up

Which part exactly? The part where I basically said Earth would be screwed without him because they are so reliant? That seems fair, considering the amount of people who believe his shoes can't be filled. At least effectively. I'd count you among them if your productive contribution of Krypto was anything to go by. Superman's Earthly foes are nothing to wet your pants over. Hell, some of them would simply be non factors. Superman is a beacon for all sorts, good and bad. It's his very essence to attract attention. Or was it that I believe others could and would fill the void?

But no, you're probably right as usual. It's not out of the question that I may indeed be stupid. thumb up

abhilegend
Originally posted by Orrsome28
Which part exactly? The part where I basically said Earth would be screwed without him because they are so reliant? That seems fair, considering the amount of people who believe his shoes can't be filled. At least effectively. I'd count you among them if your productive contribution of Krypto was anything to go by. Superman's Earthly foes are nothing to wet your pants over. Hell, some of them would simply be non factors. Superman is a beacon for all sorts, good and bad. It's his very essence to attract attention. Or was it that I believe others could and would fill the void?

But no, you're probably right as usual. It's not out of the question that I may indeed be stupid. thumb up
It has been actually answered in many stories. What happens if Superman never existed etc. The end results aren't pretty for Earth. Like Superman once said to Lex "You would still be a monster if I never came to metropolis."

So yeah, blaming him for the actions of supervillains because he chose to do the right thing is idiocy. And Earth did fine when he left earth for centuries in DC one million.

thumb up

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
It has been actually answered in many stories. What happens if Superman never existed etc. The end results aren't pretty for Earth. Like Superman once said to Lex "You would still be a monster if I never came to metropolis."

So yeah, blaming him for the actions of supervillains because he chose to do the right thing is idiocy. And Earth did fine when he left earth for centuries in DC one million.

thumb up

Wait....so in the alternate stories, if Supes didn't exist, the results aren't pretty for Earth...but at the same time, it does fine without him?

Orrsome28
Originally posted by abhilegend
It has been actually answered in many stories. What happens if Superman never existed etc. The end results aren't pretty for Earth. Like Superman once said to Lex "You would still be a monster if I never came to metropolis."

So yeah, blaming him for the actions of supervillains because he chose to do the right thing is idiocy. And Earth did fine when he left earth for centuries in DC one million.

thumb up

Mate, which is it? 'The end results aren't pretty for Earth' or 'Earth did fine when he left earth for centuries in DC one million'. I can't tell if you're making my point for me.

Lex isn't his only Earthly enemy. And be that as it may, Lex is fundamentally driven by his obsession. You can't tell me with a straight face that Lex would be the same threat he is now without Superman to feed that very obsession. He might be the same person at his core, but without Superman his special brand of crazy would present differently. It's akin to Joker and Batman. How would Joker spend his time if he didn't have Batman to antagonize to no end? He would not be the same character.

No, idiocy would be you thinking I blame him for the actions of others. I didn't say that nor was it even implied. I stated that a lot of Earth's threats stem from the fact that Superman is present. Consider just one example: imagine if we removed every Kryptonian based threat or event related to Earth. How better off would Earth be for it?

Anyway, I'm going to leave it here. The futility of responding to more than two of your posts is not lost on me. It verges on the very definition of insanity. laughing

DarkSaint85
Also, Earth seemed to do amazingly well in Red Son, once Superman 'died'.

Granted, a lot of the villains (Parasite et al) were creations of Luthor who now didn't have anyone to antagonise, but still.

Mindship
Wonder Woman, with Batman and Manhunter as advisers.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait....so in the alternate stories, if Supes didn't exist, the results aren't pretty for Earth...but at the same time, it does fine without him?
He assigned a heir for himself in DC One million actually.Originally posted by Orrsome28
Mate, which is it? 'The end results aren't pretty for Earth' or 'Earth did fine when he left earth for centuries in DC one million'. I can't tell if you're making my point for me.

Lex isn't his only Earthly enemy. And be that as it may, Lex is fundamentally driven by his obsession. You can't tell me with a straight face that Lex would be the same threat he is now without Superman to feed that very obsession. He might be the same person at his core, but without Superman his special brand of crazy would present differently. It's akin to Joker and Batman. How would Joker spend his time if he didn't have Batman to antagonize to no end? He would not be the same character.

No, idiocy would be you thinking I blame him for the actions of others. I didn't say that nor was it even implied. I stated that a lot of Earth's threats stem from the fact that Superman is present. Consider just one example: imagine if we removed every Kryptonian based threat or event related to Earth. How better off would Earth be for it?

Anyway, I'm going to leave it here. The futility of responding to more than two of your posts is not lost on me. It verges on the very definition of insanity. laughing
Actually Lex would be even more of a monster if Superman wasn't present to keep his attention and obsession to himself. Remember 52 where Superman wasn't present and Lex pretty much committed genocide?

What kryptonian enemies are on earth anyway? Most of them are in phantom zone. But you're telling me Darkseid or Mongul would stop attacking earth because Superman isn't on earth?

Superman's legacy is enough to inspire Earth, it isn't feasible if he doesn't exists. Remember JLA: The Nail?

Zack Fair
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Ok Clark is dead. No resurrection no retcon. Dead and never coming back. And that goes for his future selves, alternate universe selves. Who will replace him without skipping a beat and without changing their character to do so. And this means who can also replicate his feats and lead as he does. I was going to say a grown up Billy but then I read thisOriginally posted by Sin I AM
Who will replace him without skipping a beat and without changing their character to do so. And ended up agreeing withOriginally posted by -Pr-
Nobody.

maxivitopowe
Originally posted by Digi
Batman makes a trade with the multiverse by kicking it in the shins, and gets Thor in exchange for existence's continued existence.
thumb up

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
He assigned a heir for himself in DC One million actually.

Who?

maxivitopowe
Originally posted by abhilegend
He assigned a heir for himself in DC One million actually.
Actually Lex would be even more of a monster if Superman wasn't present to keep his attention and obsession to himself. Remember 52 where Superman wasn't present and Lex pretty much committed genocide?

What kryptonian enemies are on earth anyway? Most of them are in phantom zone. But you're telling me Darkseid or Mongul would stop attacking earth because Superman isn't on earth?

Superman's legacy is enough to inspire Earth, it isn't feasible if he doesn't exists. Remember JLA: The Nail? he said "Kryptonian based" so that would remove DD and Mongul (?)

Orrsome28
Originally posted by abhilegend
He assigned a heir for himself in DC One million actually.
Actually Lex would be even more of a monster if Superman wasn't present to keep his attention and obsession to himself. Remember 52 where Superman wasn't present and Lex pretty much committed genocide?

What kryptonian enemies are on earth anyway? Most of them are in phantom zone. But you're telling me Darkseid or Mongul would stop attacking earth because Superman isn't on earth?

Superman's legacy is enough to inspire Earth, it isn't feasible if he doesn't exists. Remember JLA: The Nail?

Oh god... I told myself I wouldn't respond but my fingers are acting of their own accord. Insanity ensues. stick out tongue

Firstly, we are hypothesizing about a world in which Superman is no longer a part of, not a world where superheroes doesn't exist. What hero would willfully let something of the sort happen in this particular case. The whole idea behind this thread was to discuss who would fill the gap left behind.

Concerning Lex, that was one such instance. And it doesn't particularly deviate from my 'crazy would present differently' statement. It doesn't necessarily make him any more of a monster either, just one with a different focus. Regardless, this is a reality where other heroes would be there to stop him, and its more than likely that a Lex without Superman would be a much less creative person and thus easier to stop. I reason this because of how inventive, cunning and manipulative Lex had to be in order to make his natural state of physical inferiority negligible in relation to Superman.

Moving on. You've misunderstood. In a prior post I stated, "Obviously there are always exceptions, mostly in the form of extraterrestrial threats, especially with the long standing trend in fiction that the Earth is the crux of everything. Even in imaginary worlds we can't help but be self-involved," recognizing that there would always be exceptions. Even earlier than that, I made my position clear that I believed that Superman's absence would allow other characters to meet their intended potential. As such, I believe certain characters would rise to the challenges that villain's such as Darkseid or Mongul may present. Superman's existence enforces an age old status quo. Superman gone would likely break it and as a result give others the freedom to write their characters as they saw fit without adhering to an established hierarchy, which clearly exists in-universe and out. Could you imagine the uproar if Superman was no longer the top dog? And I mean that in every sense of the word. That said, there would then be no reason why some of these characters couldn't replicate Superman's feats or other aspects of his character, especially when they have shown similar capacities throughout their careers. We've seen other characters lead and inspire in much the same way, maybe not to the same extent but how could they ever hope to when Superman is written to be an all encompassing character? Secondly, I presented a hypothetical scenario that done away with all Kryptonian threats, past, present and future, deviating from the OP and assuming he hadn't arrived on Earth at all. Without Superman, there is no reason for any remaining Kryptonians to even come within the general vicinity of our solar system.

Next up, the idea presents many new and interesting opportunities to explore how certain characters would deal with things Superman regularly faced and in many an instance, with relative ease. I'd personally find it interesting to read stories involving some of the lesser characters (in regard to popularity and power) formulating creative methods in which to deal with scenarios that Superman would usually address. Given, Superman does do things with a certain energy unique to him; it's usually cool or flashy, and in most cases fun. 'Superman' and 'impressive' are two closely associated words as a result. It doesn't stop me from finding the majority of his showings formulaic and uninspired. Admittedly, he's not the only character that suffers from this. It's just that it bothers me to a greater extent because he's better than that. Well....he could be. He's got more going on for him than what is usually shown. He doesn't need all these super flashy, grandiose feats that establish him leagues beyond his would-be peers. As you can hopefully see I don't hate the character, rather I take issue with how he is portrayed. There are qualities I like about him. They just don't happen to exceed the number of qualities I dislike.

Nearly there now. While Superman may have an unparalleled legacy, there are other characters who have done just as much, given as much, and struggled as much, all in the name of a little blue planet known as Earth. He gets far too much credit but that's to be expected when everything is written to be so Superman-centric. He overshadows when he needn't. There's room enough.

Lastly, what you see as inspiration, I see as a double edged sword. He may inspire and bring hope, but he also creates a false sense of security. The people take his presence for granted but what happens when the day comes and Superman is nowhere to be found? They've spent so long depending on him that they've forgotten how to fend for themselves as there was never a need to. It's that fight inside of all of us that makes us what we are. Makes us special. A Superman-dependent society is essentially a society that has relinquished that fight in faith that their messiah figure will always be there to protect them. As we know, Superman isn't the immortal, infallible figure he is perceived to be. His legacy perhaps, but not the man himself. In turn, how could other heroes ever hope to live up to his name when they were never given a proper chance?

Sorry for the wall of text by the way. I hadn't intended it to be so long. Apparently I had more to say than originally thought.

Warlord
lois

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who?
Superman Secundus.Originally posted by Orrsome28
Oh god... I told myself I wouldn't respond but my fingers are acting of their own accord. Insanity ensues. stick out tongue

Firstly, we are hypothesizing about a world in which Superman is no longer a part of, not a world where superheroes doesn't exist. What hero would willfully let something of the sort happen in this particular case. The whole idea behind this thread was to discuss who would fill the gap left behind.

Concerning Lex, that was one such instance. And it doesn't particularly deviate from my 'crazy would present differently' statement. It doesn't necessarily make him any more of a monster either, just one with a different focus. Regardless, this is a reality where other heroes would be there to stop him, and its more than likely that a Lex without Superman would be a much less creative person and thus easier to stop. I reason this because of how inventive, cunning and manipulative Lex had to be in order to make his natural state of physical inferiority negligible in relation to Superman.

Moving on. You've misunderstood. In a prior post I stated, "Obviously there are always exceptions, mostly in the form of extraterrestrial threats, especially with the long standing trend in fiction that the Earth is the crux of everything. Even in imaginary worlds we can't help but be self-involved," recognizing that there would always be exceptions. Even earlier than that, I made my position clear that I believed that Superman's absence would allow other characters to meet their intended potential. As such, I believe certain characters would rise to the challenges that villain's such as Darkseid or Mongul may present. Superman's existence enforces an age old status quo. Superman gone would likely break it and as a result give others the freedom to write their characters as they saw fit without adhering to an established hierarchy, which clearly exists in-universe and out. Could you imagine the uproar if Superman was no longer the top dog? And I mean that in every sense of the word. That said, there would then be no reason why some of these characters couldn't replicate Superman's feats or other aspects of his character, especially when they have shown similar capacities throughout their careers. We've seen other characters lead and inspire in much the same way, maybe not to the same extent but how could they ever hope to when Superman is written to be an all encompassing character? Secondly, I presented a hypothetical scenario that done away with all Kryptonian threats, past, present and future, deviating from the OP and assuming he hadn't arrived on Earth at all. Without Superman, there is no reason for any remaining Kryptonians to even come within the general vicinity of our solar system.

Next up, the idea presents many new and interesting opportunities to explore how certain characters would deal with things Superman regularly faced and in many an instance, with relative ease. I'd personally find it interesting to read stories involving some of the lesser characters (in regard to popularity and power) formulating creative methods in which to deal with scenarios that Superman would usually address. Given, Superman does do things with a certain energy unique to him; it's usually cool or flashy, and in most cases fun. 'Superman' and 'impressive' are two closely associated words as a result. It doesn't stop me from finding the majority of his showings formulaic and uninspired. Admittedly, he's not the only character that suffers from this. It's just that it bothers me to a greater extent because he's better than that. Well....he could be. He's got more going on for him than what is usually shown. He doesn't need all these super flashy, grandiose feats that establish him leagues beyond his would-be peers. As you can hopefully see I don't hate the character, rather I take issue with how he is portrayed. There are qualities I like about him. They just don't happen to exceed the number of qualities I dislike.

Nearly there now. While Superman may have an unparalleled legacy, there are other characters who have done just as much, given as much, and struggled as much, all in the name of a little blue planet known as Earth. He gets far too much credit but that's to be expected when everything is written to be so Superman-centric. He overshadows when he needn't. There's room enough.

Lastly, what you see as inspiration, I see as a double edged sword. He may inspire and bring hope, but he also creates a false sense of security. The people take his presence for granted but what happens when the day comes and Superman is nowhere to be found? They've spent so long depending on him that they've forgotten how to fend for themselves as there was never a need to. It's that fight inside of all of us that makes us what we are. Makes us special. A Superman-dependent society is essentially a society that has relinquished that fight in faith that their messiah figure will always be there to protect them. As we know, Superman isn't the immortal, infallible figure he is perceived to be. His legacy perhaps, but not the man himself. In turn, how could other heroes ever hope to live up to his name when they were never given a proper chance?

Sorry for the wall of text by the way. I hadn't intended it to be so long. Apparently I had more to say than originally thought.
TL: DR. There is a story regarding what you're saying though. One of the best stories I've read actually.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730605/000rw9ce-3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730606/000rw9ce-4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730607/000rw9ce-5.jpg.html

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730608_000rw9ce-6.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730609_000rw9ce-7.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730610_000rw9ce-8.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730611_000rw9ce-9.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730612_000rw9ce-10.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730613_000rw9ce-11.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730614_000rw9ce-12.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730615_000rw9ce-13.jpg

I could point you towards many such stories where all of these points have been made and countered. And Superman doesn't stagnate anyone's potential, leave that stuff for battleboards. He leads, inspires and protects people. Often from themselves.

DarkSaint85
Superman Secundus.

In a (slightly) more serious tone, Booster Gold.

SquallX
Diana would be my first choice.
Billy
Martian

8swords
I agree with Orrsome28, but back on OP, supergirl/powergirl droolio, billy when he becomes mature, and thor, laughing out loud

Orrsome28
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman Secundus.
TL: DR. There is a story regarding what you're saying though. One of the best stories I've read actually.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730605/000rw9ce-3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730606/000rw9ce-4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730607/000rw9ce-5.jpg.html

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730608_000rw9ce-6.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730609_000rw9ce-7.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730610_000rw9ce-8.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730611_000rw9ce-9.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730612_000rw9ce-10.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730613_000rw9ce-11.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730614_000rw9ce-12.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730615_000rw9ce-13.jpg

I could point you towards many such stories where all of these points have been made and countered. And Superman doesn't stagnate anyone's potential, leave that stuff for battleboards. He leads, inspires and protects people. Often from themselves.

I'll try and take you on your word. Those scans however represent so many of the issues I have with Superman and addresses so few of the points I made. Other than touting a boatload of American propaganda with a casual disregard for many of the people who helped build that very country, not to mention basically saying begone with culture and history that doesn't belong to the U.S, it doesn't do much to make me believe in Superman's struggle. Evidently, Superman unnecessarily shoulders the burden alone when he needn't. He lives in a world rife with potential; an abundance of heroes willing and capable of relieving that very burden. But no, why take away one of Superman's only consistent struggles, as superficial as it is? If he conducted himself differently the people would view him differently. If he was torn over not saving one life out of billions then the burden is his alone because he himself established the unattainable expectation that has since been pressed upon him. He doesn't have my sympathy that's for sure. And all it took were the words of some random stranger to console him. The depth of his regret... It's staggering.

You also keep deviating from the OP's stipulated scenario, preferring to deal with already explored interpretations of alternate worlds. As far as I'm concerned they hold little weight in this discussion. Admittedly, I too did pose a hypothetical question outside of the original, which apparently you didn't care for since you didn't bother to address it. This is meant to be a current 'Superman dies tomorrow - who fills his role?' type of scenario to which you're only contribution was, "Thor is too weak. Krypto would do a better job." It leads me to believe that no one holds a candle to the boy in blue in your mind.

On second thoughts. Really? All of my points countered? You'll have to forgive my disbelief. Especially since many of my points were in relation to real world issues such as the unwavering status quo and lack of writing freedoms as a result. And as such, I do believe Superman is a man from a bygone era, written as if he were still the most relevant and enveloping character comic fiction has witnessed. I spoke of breaking the mold... Letting other characters come into their own without Superman being the center focus, the one true hero, the only man that can save the good people of Earth. He is after all, in a paraphrasing of your own words , a character that can, "survive being thrown through the Earth's core whilst being in a 'nearly depowered' state." It speaks volumes for not only his character but others that will never have the opportunity to step outside of his shadow.

Wrapping it up or my version of it at least, I don't see how you can make such a weightless claim about him leading, inspiring and protecting humanity. He mustn't do a very good job of the first two. The third's pretty much a given considering he's often shown that he can defy any imposed limitations with as much as a simple 'nope, not happening!' attitude. But I digress. What great achievement of humanity's has Superman bore witness to? What profound change has his presence ushered in? We're still talking about a fictional world where organized crime runs rampant, racism still exists, homosexuality is a dubious topic at best, poverty and famine is never not an issue etc. etc. These aren't even some of the more profound issues humanity faces. Wow, he certainly inspired the perpetrators of those particular issues to do better, to be better. I mean, come on, this is a world where an alien messiah is readily accepted by the masses, yet issues like those stated still exist. He's done such a fine job. Commendable really. What has his alien intellect and arguable wisdom done for society that's so admirable? Sure, it's a given he doesn't want to interfere with natural evolution, but I don't see him inspiring the masses in any significant or practical way. They say they want to be better because of Superman's existence in their lives, but it certainly isn't shown on the level it should be. In addition, how can they not be considered entirely dependent when in Superman's own dialogue in the above scan he says as follows, "The one truth they hold above all else 'no he can't be everywhere at once, but if he's there for me I'll be safe.'" Their faith in him trumps their own will to fight; to persevere on their own merit. Obviously there are circumstances where only a superhero could save them like your example and its all well and good, but like I said, it can create a false sense of security when he becomes the sum, the totality of yours and everyone's continued existence, and not to mention lead to a great deal of disappointment and resentment when that is no longer the reality you face.

Lastly, humanity doesn't need protection from itself, it needs to wake up to itself so it can evolve and sometimes that takes a massive slap in the face. As always it's a matter of trial and error. If it takes a few hiccups and bumps here and there along the way, then so be it. Humanity doesn't need a world as Superman envisions it for them, it needs to create it's own image of the world; a realistic and practical one. Human's will never be perfect but they certainly don't need the likes of Superman's guiding hand to keep striving for a better tomorrow.

And with that, I conclude this essay. Poorly written to you by a severely sleep deprived person. sleepy

Mindship
Dan Turpin, for inspiration.

"In the end, the world didn't need a superman. Just a brave one."
-- Superman

Orrsome28
Originally posted by Mindship
Dan Turpin, for inspiration.

"In the end, the world didn't need a superman. Just a brave one."
-- Superman

He get's it. thumb up

abhilegend
Originally posted by Orrsome28
I'll try and take you on your word. Those scans however represent so many of the issues I have with Superman and addresses so few of the points I made. Other than touting a boatload of American propaganda with a casual disregard for many of the people who helped build that very country, not to mention basically saying begone with culture and history that doesn't belong to the U.S, it doesn't do much to make me believe in Superman's struggle. Well I don't think its just american propaganda. But I have no experience with american ideals and thought it was a very well done scene. Superficial? He is the only one of his kind, the last son of a dead planet. It has been a very deep issue for him to ask for help. Would you say the same for Batman? He hasn't. Its the myth of him that is so huge. Any lesser man would crumple under weight of such expectations. But leave it to you to misunderstand such a simple scene. Well. lets just say he wouldn't cry over it. You haven't read much of Superman if you think that's the end of the issue. It has been referenced many times over.

Which are more close to reality than your fantasy. Your question was hypothetical, I don't do much hypothetical. And you took that seriously? Dear God, ease up a little. It was a joke as much as Digi posted a joke. As a symbol of inspiration? Very few characters do and in comics only Spider-Man and Captain America come close.

If I tried to give you issues to read? Yes. Not yet though. But that's not Superman's fault. Quite the opposite. Superman is more necessary than ever today. To inspire hope in a world ruled by cynicism and despair. Like I said he protects people, even from themselves. That's what we need now. And they can do it even if Superman's around. You are blaming Superman for the incompetence of writers. Take Grant Morrison's JLA for example, Superman was a force of nature but he didn't overshadow any character.

He has done a good job inspiring since a Legion of heroes exists solely due to be inspired by him. And as for the defying impossible odds, that's what heroes do. Talk about being ignorant. The work he has done for humanity inspires them till a thousand years later. Change doesn't happens over night in humanity. You're rambling at this point. Take a look at Legion of Super Heroes. That's a dilemma every hero faces. Its even said for Thor or Captain America and they have failed before too.

Such a massive change can lead to self destruction. Well if see how humanity has fared in last two thousand years and how its faring right now, it needs exactly that. But I take that you don't approve. Good for you, but you haven't actually read the stories regarding superman's struggles. You have an idea, a perverted idea of struggles of Superman actually. I suggest you read some superman stories and come back.

Orrsome28
You made some poor assumptions and a few mildly offensive implications, as if I were a complete moron but I'll let it lie. I did prepare a response; unfortunately it exceeded the imposed character limitation and I can't deem it worth the hassle splitting it into multiple posts. So alas, I'm going to end my part of this ever increasing insanity. I grow tired and weary of this discussion and its gone far beyond what I'd intended. Whether you bother to respond or not is obviously at your discretion, but don't feel obligated because I won't be revisiting this subject again. So if you want the last word, feel free. It matters little. Our views are fundamentally different and this continuing back and forth won't change a lick. I fully respect your opinions but at the end of the day your reality is not my own.

So I bid my due, grateful for whatever stimulation this discussion with you provided my brain.

thumb up

abhilegend
Good for you.

thumb up

SamZED
Originally posted by Orrsome28
You made some poor assumptions and a few mildly offensive implications, as if I were a complete moron but I'll let it lie. I did prepare a response; unfortunately it exceeded the imposed character limitation and I can't deem it worth the hassle splitting it into multiple posts. So alas, I'm going to end my part of this ever increasing insanity. I grow tired and weary of this discussion and its gone far beyond what I'd intended. Whether you bother to respond or not is obviously at your discretion, but don't feel obligated because I won't be revisiting this subject again. So if you want the last word, feel free. It matters little. Our views are fundamentally different and this continuing back and forth won't change a lick. I fully respect your opinions but at the end of the day your reality is not my own.

So I bid my due, grateful for whatever stimulation this discussion with you provided my brain.

thumb up Well did you expect to make a post about uselessness and harmfulness of one of the most popular and selfless heroes who saved the earth countless times and not get some sort of a backlash on a comicbook forum? That's a rough equivalent of going to a holocaust survivors forum and preaching about Hitler's greatness and righteousness of his ways. Ok a very rough one.stick out tongue

-Pr-
Guys, stay on topic.

Abhi, stop being a ****.

abhilegend
Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, stay on topic.

Abhi, stop being a ****.
Well, I wasn't interested in the topic but even my patience has a limit.

srug

-Pr-
I don't agree with Orrsome. At all. I think he/she is completely and utterly wrong in almost every way.

That said, it's not the topic, and two, you shouldn't really care if someone doesn't like Superman; that's their right.

Just don't derail the thread (and that's not just to you either, other people are doing it).

abhilegend
Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't agree with Orrsome. At all. I think he/she is completely and utterly wrong in almost every way.

That said, it's not the topic, and two, you shouldn't really care if someone doesn't like Superman; that's their right.

Just don't derail the thread (and that's not just to you either, other people are doing it).
I really didn't care at first. But he was calling me out repeatedly and thus I replied. I really don't care if someone likes superman or not, its their choice.

It won't happen again.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman Secundus.
TL: DR. There is a story regarding what you're saying though. One of the best stories I've read actually.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730605/000rw9ce-3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730606/000rw9ce-4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18730607/000rw9ce-5.jpg.html

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730608_000rw9ce-6.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730609_000rw9ce-7.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730610_000rw9ce-8.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730611_000rw9ce-9.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730612_000rw9ce-10.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730613_000rw9ce-11.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730614_000rw9ce-12.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/18730615_000rw9ce-13.jpg

I could point you towards many such stories where all of these points have been made and countered. And Superman doesn't stagnate anyone's potential, leave that stuff for battleboards. He leads, inspires and protects people. Often from themselves.

I wonder how much they had to pay Garth (I munch Penis) Ennis not to have Superman molest small children for that bit?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Flyattractor
I wonder how much they had to pay Garth (I munch Penis) Ennis not to have Superman molest small children for that bit?
Ah fly, your rage for Ennis is legendary.

SamZED
I hope his middle name is Patrik so we could call him mr. P. Ennis.

-Pr-
Originally posted by abhilegend
I really didn't care at first. But he was calling me out repeatedly and thus I replied. I really don't care if someone likes superman or not, its their choice.

It won't happen again.

Where were you called out?

I'm genuinely asking.

abhilegend
Originally posted by -Pr-
Where were you called out?

I'm genuinely asking.
Originally posted by Orrsome28
I take that to mean at no point can you understand my reasoning. I suppose it's to be expected. I imagine you physically having this response anytime an opinion that isn't pro-Superman is put forth. It's likely an involuntary knee-jerk reaction developed after years of tenuous arguments falling on deaf ears.

I do believe I've unwittingly employed Ahbi bait. Seems to work every time. Hook, line and sinker. With that said, it's unfortunate that you fall short of game regulations and I have to set you free. It's probably for the best. Now you can swim upstream and spawn more of your Superman agenda. It's safe to say however, this isn't likely to be my last fishing expedition. I'll simply have to choose more wisely next time. Don't worry though, I'll continue to voice my opinions and, rest assured, you'll be here to oppose them. This seems to be the reality I've slipped into.

It's all okay though, Abhi. You certainly make these boards entertaining, something I'm most thankful for. thumb up

Back on point, I do wonder how many exactly of Superman's foes would be at all bothered with the Earth and it's people if he wasn't present. Obviously there are always exceptions, mostly in the form of extraterrestrial threats, especially with the long standing trend in fiction that the Earth is the crux of everything. Even in imaginary worlds we can't help but be self-involved. I also don't see too many of his domestic villains being more than the sum total of the JL.

Orrsome28
Originally posted by -Pr-
Where were you called out?

I'm genuinely asking.

I likened Ahbi's apparent need to reply to any and all of my posts to a fishing analogy. If this is 'calling him out' then I'm admittedly guilty. I can't think of any proper misconduct on my behalf however.

Orrsome28
I likened Ahbi's apparent need to reply to any and all of my posts to a fishing analogy. If this is 'calling him out' then I'm admittedly guilty. His continual attentions weren't intended though. I can't think of any proper misconduct or malicious intent on my behalf however. Like I said, I like Ahbi, he keeps things interesting.

Orrsome28
Apparently I somehow quoted myself trying to edit my post...

Reflassshh
You try too hard to sound smart...

Insane Titan
So this thread has shown if you don't like superman Abhi will hurt you....and himself???

Orrsome28
Originally posted by Reflassshh
You try too hard to sound smart...
Ok buddy. I'll try to try less. It wasn't my intention so thanks for the heads-up. You're honesty is appreciated man.
I'm actually a pretty apathetic person just fyi. Yeah, not a quality to be particularly proud of, I know. messed

Sin I AM
Eek some people are so sensitive. Anyway the thread wasnt intended to incite fanboyism. I just wanted to know who could replace Clark while still remaining in character. The character needs to inspire and perform at his level consistently. SilverSSurfer, Thor, Marvel, Diana, Bruce all those mentioned can't do it after a second glance. They just dont have the qualities and would constantly live in his shadow. Im beginning to think PR was right

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