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The Bith who was a guinea pig for Plagueis runs a gauntlet.

1. Kao Cen Darach
2. Ven Zallow
3. Agen Kolar
4. Scourge
5. Obi Wan ROTS
6. Satele Shan
7. Darth Krayt

BOSS: Count Dooku

Not sure who Venamis is but what has Agen Kolar done to be placed above Darach and Zallow?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Not sure who Venamis is but what has Agen Kolar done to be placed above Darach and Zallow?


Tenebrous trained him as a sith, and specifically how to beat Plagueis' style as a final test. It wasn't enough, Venamis lost, and Plagueis used him for science experiments.



So in other words, a saber monkey sith who's somewhat weaker than recently-became-master Plagueis.


Not sure exactly where he stops, but he definitely doesn't clear.

That's easy.

He's been stated several times to be one of the finest swordsmen the Order had produced in it's history, and even Mace Windu considered his bladework to be of a considerable level, moreso than the other B-Team members. (And considering one of the other B-Team members handily defeated General Grievous...)

Not only that, but Shaak Ti considered Agen and the other B-Team members to be significantly better than she for the task of capturing Sidious. The same Shaak Ti that would eventually outmatch powerful Sith Assassins such as Starkiller himself.

Agen Kolar has also demonstrated his level of skill by completely dominating high level Jedi Masters such as Quinlan Vos, who by this point had already defeated Volfe Karkko--One of the most powerful Dark Jedi we've seen in the universe.

He's also demonstrated his high level hand-to-hand martial skill when single handedly taking out dozens of pirates unarmed without any apparent signs of difficulty. As a Zabrak he also has a high pain resistance. And while his Force Powers are for the most part unknown, I would assume that for a Jedi of his level that he's at least a competent Force Warrior.

Ultimately, the real question boils down to--What has the likes of Kao Cen Darach done to put him above Agen Kolar? I can understand Zallow, even if I may personally disagree.

Feats>Words

Anoon Bondara is implied to be the very best swordmen in the Order yet falls to Maul's blade. Mace, for one, is VERY humble claiming Depa's bladework surpasses that of his own when we know that's not the case.

Darach held off TWO Sith Lords at the same time, displaying unreal technical proficiency, and impressive Force powers simultaneously.

Ven Zallow, again, while not as impressive as Darach is still above 95 percent of the PT Jedi Order based on his skills and powers shown.

It's one thing if you can cite feats from literature or a cartoon if a character isn't prominent in the films, but just words of praise. No. Not when we see these other characters do something. The only thing we get from Kolar in the films is Sidious slaughtering him with unforgivable ease.

Not only that, but Shaak Ti considered Agen and the other B-Team members to be significantly better than she for the task of capturing Sidious. The same Shaak Ti that would eventually outmatch powerful Sith Assassins such as Starkiller himself.


She did? When was this?

Seems odd, considering her feats are way better... I mean, just counting that day, she clashed with and escaped from Anakin!



But amped by masters T'ra Saa, Tholme, and Zao, so not exactly Quinlan on his own.

Still, Quinlan's no pushover.

I don't think he'd beat Satele.

You mean the Darth Maul who is "one of the most skilled Sith of all time" that is a master of multiple lightsaber forums?

Atleast the film supports that. Shadow Hunter I believe said something to the effect of Anoon was "second to none" with a blade.

That's because Maul is one of the most skilled swordsmen the Sith have ever seen.

Not to mention that Agen Kolar's accomplishments outstrip that of Bondara's. Being considered to be the most skilled of a group of the most skilled Jedi ever produced in the Order's history is pretty damn impressive.



Sure, Mace is clearly the better of the two--the statement is hyperbolic but... It's not really unjustified either, parallels between the two have been made several times in the novel.

At the same instant both of them backflipped into the air, landing on their feet poised in perfect mirror images, their blades whipping in identically curving slashes almost too fast to see.
---
His blade whirred through the air. Hers whirred faster. She advanced.
---
Then she was on him. His whole world turned to green fire. Depa's blade was everywhere.
---
Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. Green flame struck through his guard, and only a frantic jerk of his head turned what would have been a brain-burning thrust into a line of char along his cheekbone.
---
And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.




One Sith Lord that was practically featless, and the other one that slaughtered him in a one on one fight.



Ven Zallow is easily more impressive than Darach.

Also--All of the high level masters of the PT including Vos, Kolar, Bondara, and all of the rest are within the top 0.5% amongst the PT's strongest, so Zallow being among the top 5% isn't very moving.



The same would happen to Zallow or Darach.

Vindican isn't featless though. Aside from showing high-level proficiency with a saberstaff he deflected a missile, utilized Force lightning, and continued to fight on after being slashed across his face/eye.

Anakin slaughtered Dooku very similarly. Guess he's way above him, huh. No, I attribute that to Malgus/Anakin using the dark side to straight up overpower the more skilled fighter. But obviously, Anakin/Malgus up to their respective periods were immensely skilled themselves.

Disagree on Zallow>Darach. Darach displayed more technical proficiency and superior Force powers. He also lasted alot longer if you consider the entire duel.

To be frank, Zallow/Darach are clearly better than every Jedi in the PT not named Yoda, Mace, Kenobi, Depa or Anakin. And some of those individuals I'd argue in TOR Jedi favor.

Already went over this in another thread. Disagree.

None of those are dueling feats.



Read the Decieved novel.



LOL I'd name quite a few more buddy. That list may be somewhat accurate when discussing Zallow's apprentice, Aryn Leneer though.

You didn't specify dueling feats.

What am I missing? I've heard the "strongest kill/opponent" quote from Malgus and that can be attributed to the specific Jedi in the temple specifically during that fight.

Namely, who?

1. Thought I already made it clear that we were discussing Kao's skills, and his only feat besides "being temple battlemaster" is defeating Vindican while holding off an apprentice Malgus. Neither of those two have anything regarding their capabilities with a blade by this point other than the fact that they are remarkable Sith Lords, one of which would eventually become amongst the best of his day. It's impressive, but it doesn't make him better than Agen Kolar, who dominated Quinlan Vos, who by this point has already defeated Volfe Karkko--A Dark Jedi who was able to take on a strike team of half a dozen Jedi Knights/Masters and killed most of them. That, along with his quote implying he is the best bladesmaster amongst a strike team composed of celebrated swordsmen that are all considered amongst the best in the Order's history, and I am doubtless he is Kao Cen Darach's senior.

2. Ven Zallow was the Jedi Master tasked with the defense of the Jedi Order and was considered among the best Jedi of his day. As you said, Malgus himself considers him his strongest and most famous kill. Unlike Kao Cen, we see Zallow cutting Sith Warriors down in couples. You noted Kao had greater Force Powers, but we see Zallow unleash a Force Wave that floors three Sith, one of them being Lord Adraas--The second strongest Sith at the Sacking of Coruscant. Ven Zallow is much more impressive to me than Kao Cen Darach.

3. Ki-Adi Mund is a prime example. For everything that Kao has done, I am sure I can provide you with something Ki-Adi Mundi has done better. As I specified above, I would definitely say Agen Kolar and the other B-Team members impress me more than Darach. Plo Koon also was able to outmatch Assaj Ventress whilst having a broken arm, and his Force Powers are highly advanced--He's up there too. Let's also not forget Luminara, who's Soresu mastery was said to be akin to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. (She also held her ground against Ventress while blinded)

Many people persecute me and others for bias towards the PT's era, but I think when looking at the scope of things bias is practically everywhere. I don't see how you can so easily assume that the Battlemaster of the TOR Era is greater than Cin Drallig, the PT's Battlemaster and head of temple security. He has no feats that really suggest this.

It's impressive, but it doesn't make him better than Agen Kolar, who dominated Quinlan Vos, who by this point has already defeated Volfe Karkko--A Dark Jedi who was able to take on a strike team of half a dozen Jedi Knights/Masters and killed most of them.

Vos was amped by three other masters against Volfe but not Kolar, mind.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Thought I already made it clear that we were discussing Kao's skills, and his only feat besides "being temple battlemaster" is defeating Vindican while holding off an apprentice Malgus. Neither of those two have anything regarding their capabilities with a blade by this point other than the fact that they are remarkable Sith Lords, one of which would eventually become amongst the best of his day. It's impressive, but it doesn't make him better than Agen Kolar, who dominated Quinlan Vos, who by this point has already defeated Volfe Karkko--A Dark Jedi who was able to take on a strike team of half a dozen Jedi Knights/Masters and killed most of them. That, along with his quote implying he is the best bladesmaster amongst a strike team composed of celebrated swordsmen that are all considered amongst the best in the Order's history, and I am doubtless he is Kao Cen Darach's senior. We'll have to agree to disagree. Most of our disagreement stems from our initial placing of the abilities of those shown in the cinematics.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
2. Ven Zallow was the Jedi Master tasked with the defense of the Jedi Order and was considered among the best Jedi of his day. As you said, Malgus himself considers him his strongest and most famous kill. Unlike Kao Cen, we see Zallow cutting Sith Warriors down in couples. You noted Kao had greater Force Powers, but we see Zallow unleash a Force Wave that floors three Sith, one of them being Lord Adraas--The second strongest Sith at the Sacking of Coruscant. Ven Zallow is much more impressive to me than Kao Cen Darach. Do you have any doubt that Darach couldn't have done the same as far as cutting down multiple "no name" Sith. This dude was holding his own against two "named" Sith Lords who actually displayed proficiency in both swordfighting and Force powers.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
3. Ki-Adi Mund is a prime example. For everything that Kao has done, I am sure I can provide you with something Ki-Adi Mundi has done better. As I specified above, I would definitely say Agen Kolar and the other B-Team members impress me more than Darach. Plo Koon also was able to outmatch Assaj Ventress whilst having a broken arm, and his Force Powers are highly advanced--He's up there too. Let's also not forget Luminara, who's Soresu mastery was said to be akin to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. (She also held her ground against Ventress while blinded) What feats did you have in mind as for Mundi? I've seen the Force feat which is impressive. But as far as bladework, he was able to hold off Grievous for a little while but other than that I'm all ears. Luminara was clearly shown to be Ventress' inferior blind or not. There's no way she is approaching Dooku's level. This dude spars against Grievous routinely beating him.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Many people persecute me and others for bias towards the PT's era, but I think when looking at the scope of things bias is practically everywhere. I don't see how you can so easily assume that the Battlemaster of the TOR Era is greater than Cin Drallig, the PT's Battlemaster and head of temple security. He has no feats that really suggest this. Drallig has no feats. Darach does though. Just in that one fight he shows abilities only few are capable of.

I have no clue where you people are getting that Ven Zallow>Darach. Darach displayed greater technical proficiency and better Force powers in the video. Unless I'm missing something in the literature based on the cinematic Darach is clearly more impressive.

lol. It was confirmed Malgus's best kill was Zallow on swtor.com.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4690286526_96cec951ce_b.jpg

This is why Star Wars sucks. Lmao. We hold Lucas' opinion higher than logic.

Which is it? "Famous" or "best"? There is a difference. Which context was the book using? For that specific Temple battle or out of all of his kills in history?

Sidenote, I consider Fisto best of the B-team. He was able to actually block an attack.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's easy.

He's been stated several times to be one of the finest swordsmen the Order had produced in it's history, and even Mace Windu considered his bladework to be of a considerable level, moreso than the other B-Team members. (And considering one of the other B-Team members handily defeated General Grievous...)

Which was clearly incorrect given that Fisto lasted longer than him and was able to actually block one of Sidious' blows.

Originally posted by Q99
Sidenote, I consider Fisto best of the B-team. He was able to actually block an attack. and he defeat grevious, though I don't think that counts as a 'amazing' feat anymore

But you can't back up your placing of those shown in the cinematics because they haven't accomplished anything other than ranking as Sith Lords, which while impressive, isn't something outside the capabilities of other mentioned parties.



Well, as you mentioned, his Force Feat is definitely quite a bit better than Kao Cen's. However, that's not all he's accomplished.

He held off Grievous while exhausted and injured then continued to drive Assaj Ventress back in their duel, not to mention him outperforming famous Jedi Masters like Sharad Hett in their respective performances against Aurra Sing.

Unlike Lord Vindican, Ventress and Aurra both have feats besides simply being assumed powerful because they have a name.



Drallig is the Jedi Battlemaster of the Order, and was charged as head of the Jedi Temple's security, and is noted as the most skilled swordsman in the Temple during Operation Knightfall. (Shaak Ti was also present.) And Dooku implied that Grievous could fall victim to Drallig were they to engage in one on one combat.

Kao Cen Darach fending off two completely featless Sith Lords really doesn't really supersede any of that in the long run, dude.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And Dooku implied that Grievous could fall victim to Drallig were they to engage in one on one combat.


Not that I don't agree with you, but, wasn't that accolade given to Shaak Ti in the reprint of LoE?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
and he defeat grevious, though I don't think that counts as a 'amazing' feat anymore

I still consider it quite impressive, I think people underrate TCW Griev.

Originally posted by Q99
I still consider it quite impressive, I think people underrate TCW Griev. well yeah its impressive, but, grevious kinda gets a shitty treatment in TCW series, I mean sure he defeated Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti and Aayla Secura(OCW) and is still a powerful swordsmen, but how many times has he ran or called for help? in a straight up fight (like with Ventress, Fisto and Kenobi) he stands no chance. his reoccurring retreats and 'losses' had sort of down-graded him from a "Fearsome Jedi Hunter" to a "Cowardly clanker who can use a lightsaber imo.