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What story or Revan's fall to the Dark Side do you prefer more?

The Star Forge corrupted Revan and Malak.
-or the stupid-
Revan was always corrupted from the beginning.
-or the newer-
The Sith Emperor mind****ed Revan and Malak.

Star Forge.

The first never existed... Revan had always fallen to the dark side prior to his discovery of the Star Forge.

Originally posted by ares834
The first never existed... Revan had always fallen to the dark side prior to his discovery of the Star Forge.



It's been awhile, but I seem to recall either Korriban or Malachor V being a turning point for him.

I'm offended if you don't think I know Revan's story. The KOTOR story was Revan began to fall to the Dark Side during the Mando Wars and Malachor V was the turning point. However he was never a true Dark Lord until the Outer Rims and the Star Forge, which was when he embraced it completely.

However some old texts also suggest that the Mando Wars were designed by Revan to corrupt the Jedi, implying Revan was always evil. This is said by the Chronicles of the Old Republic and numerous of your companions in KOTOR2 (mainly Atton and Traya). I added this in to the options in description.

Revan didn't start the Mando wars, he joined them. That's... always been the case.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm offended if you don't think I know Revan's story. The KOTOR story was Revan began to fall to the Dark Side during the Mando Wars and Malachor V was the turning point. However he was never a true Dark Lord until the Outer Rims and the Star Forge, which was when he embraced it completely.

Why the hell do you think he was looking for the Star Forge in the first place... The dude was dark side prior to finding the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Revan didn't start the Mando wars, he joined them. That's... always been the case.
I know that. Go talk to Obsidian about GOT0 and their other canon killers.

Revan was never officially Darth Revan until he held the Star Forge in his possession, because it was the Star Forge that finished corrupting him. There were like 5 dialogue exchanges about this in KOTOR (maybe you need to reply it), and it's even mentioned in the Revan novel that says along the lines of: The official story was he was corrupted by the Dark energies of the Star Forge.

I prefer the Kotor II version where Revan was always a morally ambiguous genius who chose to fall to the dark side to best protect the galaxy. Its just so much more interesting than "power hungry assh0le becomes a bigger assh0le because war."

As I recall, this was even hinted at in Kotor I with the star map on Kashyyyk.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan was never officially Darth Revan until he held the Star Forge in his possession, because it was the Star Forge that finished corrupting him. There were like 5 dialogue exchanges about this in KOTOR (maybe you need to reply it), and it's even mentioned in the Revan novel that says along the lines of: The official story was he was corrupted by the Dark energies of the Star Forge.

That he wasn't called Darth Revan prior to the Star Forge is totally irrelevant. He was clearly a dark sider prior to discovering the SF. This is evident in not only that he sought the Star Forge but also the way he fought the Mandalorian Wars and that he passed the Star Maps "trials". The original story (the one presented in KotOR) was that he fell during the Mandalorian Wars.

Yeah you don't gain extra powers by taking 'Darth' in to your name. He could have called himself Slappy and he'd still be dark.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I prefer the Kotor II version where Revan was always a morally ambiguous genius who chose to fall to the dark side to best protect the galaxy. Its just so much more interesting than "power hungry assh0le becomes a bigger assh0le because war."

As I recall, this was even hinted at in Kotor I with the star map on Kashyyyk. As much as I didn't like the godhood Revan received in #2, I did like the moral ambiguity it added for him.

Originally posted by ares834
That he wasn't called Darth Revan prior to the Star Forge is totally irrelevant. He was clearly a dark sider prior to discovering the SF. This is evident in not only that he sought the Star Forge but also the way he fought the Mandalorian Wars and that he passed the Star Maps "trials". The original story (the one presented in KotOR) was that he fell during the Mandalorian Wars.
No. You are referring to the theory created by the Jedi Council of #1, but is later debunked once the player discovers the Star Forge. However this theory is later resurrected and used heavily in #2 by the Jedi Council and Atris, since it related to the Exile.

I am referring to the 25 quotes that say all say along the lines of Malak and Revan left the Mandalorian Wars as heroes, they returned as something else. Note that at this point they discover the first Star Map after the war, yet are still Jedi:
watch?v=bgH7Pb4GN_Y

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
As much as I didn't like the godhood Revan received in #2, I did like the moral ambiguity it added for him.

Even I think it was excessive, but Revan was a truly fascinating character in Kotor II since he written as actually being a incomprehensible genius instead of it just being an informed attribute like it is everywhere else. His plans actually were brilliant, like how he was planting various seeds all over the galaxy and was purposefully influencing the Jedi during the war and a dozen other subtle plans that get brought up in the game. And to top it off you learn that he was always just preparing for an enemy no-one else was even aware of.

Which really made no sense since he only knew about this enemy at the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

edit: That video makes no sense now. Revan's Sith robes were created by the Star Forge, yet in that video he already has them. :/

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even I think it was excessive, but Revan was a truly fascinating character in Kotor II since he written as actually being a incomprehensible genius instead of it just being an informed attribute like it is everywhere else. His plans actually were brilliant, like how he was planting various seeds all over the galaxy and was purposefully influencing the Jedi during the war and a dozen other subtle plans that get brought up in the game. And to top it off you learn that he was always just preparing for an enemy no-one else was even aware of.



When KotOR II came out, Revan was a contender, somewhat behind Thrawn, of tactical and strategic genius of the SW mythos. Then came Revan and TOR, and he became something of an idiot savant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. You are referring to the theory created by the Jedi Council of #1, but is later debunked once the player discovers the Star Forge. However this theory is later resurrected and used heavily in #2 by the Jedi Council and Atris, since it related to the Exile.

Show me where it is debunked.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I am referring to the 25 quotes that say all say along the lines of Malak and Revan left the Mandalorian Wars as heroes, they returned as something else. Note that at this point they discover the first Star Map after the war, yet are still Jedi:
watch?v=bgH7Pb4GN_Y

And? They were "heroes" but were still dark siders as evident by their actions.

As for the video, why the hell do you think they are looking for the Star Forge? To give it as a gift to the Senate?

lol

BTW, even if though they are still "Jedi" at this time does not mean that they aren't dark siders.

So we all agree Thrawn is the best strategic genius in the mythos? Nice.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When KotOR II came out, Revan was a contender, somewhat behind Thrawn, of tactical and strategic genius of the SW mythos.

Even allowing for KotOR II's interpretation of Revan, Palpatine's gambit utterly dwarfs his schemes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So we all agree Thrawn is the best strategic genius in the mythos? Nice.

That's kind of a given, since he can examine pottery and know almost everything about a culture.

Oh, and he had an Empire like 2-3 times the size of Revan's.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even allowing for KotOR II's interpretation of Revan, Palpatine's gambit utterly dwarfs his schemes.

No it doesn't.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No it doesn't.

Yes it does?

Because they didn't know about the Star Forge yet. And once they find out about it, the Council shuts up about the Mando Wars.

No where does it say they were looking. They could have found it by accident for all that matters.


I never said they weren't dark siders, however I did say they were also light siders, and still apart of the Jedi Order.

You are not understanding what I am trying to say, and you think I am disagreeing with you on this part, because I am not. Revan did use the Dark Side in the Mando Wars, I'm not denying that. But rather instead he never fully embraced the Dark Side until he went into the Unknown Regions and encountered the Star Forge.

Now thinking about it, there are so many plot holes in this:
1. Revan wears Star Forge robes before going to Star Forge.
2. After Mando Wars, Revan goes to Dantooine first.
3. Malak is depicted as the cautious and caring one in the video, not Revan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because they didn't know about the Star Forge yet.

Which doesn't debunk anything...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No where does it say they were looking. They could have found it by accident for all that matters.

Uh, in the video you posted they clearly were looking for the Star Forge.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are not understanding what I am trying to say, and you think I am disagreeing with you on this part, because I am not. Revan did use the Dark Side in the Mando Wars, I'm not denying that. But rather instead he never fully embraced the Dark Side until he went into the Unknown Regions and encountered the Star Forge.

Revan clearly wanted to conquer the galaxy prior to finding the Star Forge. Seems pretty clear they (or at least Revan) were "fully embracing" the dark side (whatever that means) prior to it's discovery.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Which really made no sense since he only knew about this enemy at the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

I think that was only established after Kotor II. I mean, Canderous flat out tells you that the Sith orchestrated the entire Mandalorian Wars, so I doubt that it was inconceivable that Revan knew from the start about them, if even Canderous knew about it.

The Council's belief was Revan turned Sith during the Mandalorian Wars, because they didn't know about Revan discovering the Star Forge.

No. It starts with them pacing around. They could have discovered it and decided to check it out, or Revan heard about it and decided to rather of not follow the path. So many different ways...
however this leads to think, if they didn't just stumble upon it, how did they even know that the Star Forge existed?

Revan did not want to conqueror the galaxy until he found out about the True Sith, which was in the Unknown Regions.

Damn, Vitiate reference all the way back in KOTOR 2.
watch?v=fwNQUF2C2vE

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Council's belief was Revan turned Sith during the Mandalorian Wars, because they didn't know about Revan discovering the Star Forge.

Which debunks Revan falling to the DS during the MW how?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. It starts with them pacing around. They could have discovered it and decided to check it out, or Revan heard about it and decided to rather of not follow the path. So many different ways...
however this leads to think, if they didn't just stumble upon it, how did they even know that the Star Forge existed?

Even if they happened to just stumble upon the first Star Map they continued looking for it afterwards.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan did not want to conqueror the galaxy until he found out about the True Sith, which was in the Unknown Regions.

Uh, I thought were talking about Revan's fall while only using the 1st KotOR. But, if we take into consideration KotOR 2, Rvean is clearly fully dark side at the end of the Mandalorian Wars as evident by his use of the Mass Shadow Generator.

Nothing can debunk anything here, because honestly I don't think there was a canonical outline on what happened to Revan, just a shit ton of theories.

Which was after the Mando Wars.

Honestly, I don't even know what we are talking about any more. There are to many theories on what happened to Revan to have some form of a debate because when one theory picks up, another is created, and by the end of both games, there must have been at least 10.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which was after the Mando Wars.

And prior to them finding the Star Forge.

Just like I initially said.

ALL THE DIFFERENT ONES:
1. Revan was always evil, and he orchestrated the Mando Wars. (GOT0 in #2)
2. Revan fell to the dark side during Mando Wars completely. (Jedi Council, #1, #2)
3. Revan touched the dark side in the wars, but never truely fell until the Unknown Regions. (numerous times throughout #1, implied in various books)
4. Revan fell to the Dark Side on Malachor V (Some Council Members in #2)
5. Revan fell to the Darkside by his own choice (Darth Traya in #2, Chronicles of the Old Republic)
6. Revan fell to the Darkside and became a Sith on Korriban (TCSWE)
7. Revan is mind****ed by Vitiate (The Revan novel)
8. Revan embraced the Darkside during Mando Wars and is called by Vitiate to join him (Crazy Revan in TOR)


But still after the Mando Wars, which you are in the belief they fell completely during it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
But still after the Mando Wars, which you are in the belief they fell completely during it.

Uh, no. I said in the original story (solely KotOR) that is the case and is what is presented to us.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I prefer the Kotor II version where Revan was always a morally ambiguous genius who chose to fall to the dark side to best protect the galaxy. Its just so much more interesting than "power hungry assh0le becomes a bigger assh0le because war."


You're mixing up cause and effect. He wasn't some genius because he chose to be bad but rather that he was always strategically sound despite going dark.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ALL THE DIFFERENT ONES:
1. Revan was always evil, and he orchestrated the Mando Wars. (GOT0 in #2)
2. Revan fell to the dark side during Mando Wars completely. (Jedi Council, #1, #2)
3. Revan touched the dark side in the wars, but never truely fell until the Unknown Regions. (numerous times throughout #1, implied in various books)
4. Revan fell to the Dark Side on Malachor V (Some Council Members in #2)
5. Revan fell to the Darkside by his own choice (Darth Traya in #2, Chronicles of the Old Republic)
6. Revan fell to the Darkside and became a Sith on Korriban (TCSWE)
7. Revan is mind****ed by Vitiate (The Revan novel)
8. Revan embraced the Darkside during Mando Wars and is called by Vitiate to join him (Crazy Revan in TOR)


But still after the Mando Wars, which you are in the belief they fell completely during it.

Revan was pretty clearly a dubious guy even before the Mandalorian War, with his weird cult, creepy hood, lust for knowledge, assassin droid factory and all the teachings from Kreia. Isn't it established in the comics that he was fairly dark anyway?

My opinion is that he was always going to break away from the Jedi in some capacity and was using the war to influence his followers away from Jedi doctrine to a more dark side approach and maybe even establish his own, new Order but then he went full on Sith after meeting the Emperor. I highly doubt Revan was ever going to go back to the Order after he defied them like he and his followers did.

Originally posted by ares834
Uh, no. I said in the original story (solely KotOR) that is the case and is what is presented to us.
No, that is only the case of the Council Members.
That Revan was corrupted by the Star Forge is another plot line introduced toward the end of the game, which is the one I favor.

Actually, I prefer the "Revan was always evil" one because of the lolz.

Originally posted by Based
You're mixing up cause and effect. He wasn't some genius because he chose to be bad but rather that he was always strategically sound despite going dark.

My impression has always been that Revan was such a brilliant strategist in part because he wasn't confined by ethics, allowing him to make the tough choices and make necessary sacrifices that a regular Jedi wouldn't even consider. I believe it was said in the games that he was sacrificing whole worlds to gain the strategic edge.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That Revan was corrupted by the Star Forge is another plot line introduced toward the end of the game, which is the one I favor.

And I'll ask again. Show me where this is mentioned (that the Star Forge corrupted Revan) as he was clearly a dark sider prior to its discovery.

@Neph Yes one of the companions said that in KOTOR 2.

Originally posted by ares834
And I'll ask again. Show me where this is mentioned.
What do you mean "where this is mentioned?" That was the center of the entire second part of the game, at least in my point of view. I'll find you a quote though, hold on.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Neph Yes one of the companions said that in KOTOR 2.

It's also mentioned by Ordo in the original KotOR. Certainly not the action of a light side user, is it?

Nope. Revan seems to have been fairly grey. He had no problem doing evil when necessary, but he did help out Juhani and others on Taris and iirc he was genuinely pissed off about the Mandalorians butchering people.

Sure. He wasn't fully dark at the start. But, by the war's end, he was intentionally killing his own soldiers to "clean house". That's the actions of a dark Jedi.

I don't by that "clean house" crap for the canonical reason Revan activated the mass shadow generator. That quote was by HK, and I believe HK was one of the main supporters after his mindwipe that Revan orchestrated at least the later part of the wars to turn the Jedi to Sith, which is no longer canon.

Don't say mind**** that's bad language

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2046/img-12.JPG
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2046/img-13.JPG
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2046/img-14.JPG

If we are going to use that for canon evidence, then I can use this:
"When I offered to go with her... she laughed. Then, she attacked me. Revan, at her full power, was more than a match for me. The battle was over quickly - and then she made sure I couldn't follow her, even if I wanted to. She left me there, a broken wreck on the Outer Rim. I vowed that I would never bend knee to another. Any alliances I entered in to would be ones where I was an equal."
-Mandalore

I think there's another option, I think Revan never fell to the dark-side, he felt he need to learn both the dark side and the light side of the force in order to truly combat the sith emperor- all this AFTER he was called/found by vitiate, his cold and ruthless tactics are what 'needed' for their victory over the mandalorians: After Malachor, revan created HK, so that the incident of Malachor would never happen again(he was disgusted by it, so he didn't fall during the mando wars), I think Revan never truly 'fell' I think he felt he - to quote Kreia, needed the contrast, not adherence to a single thing(Light-side) that's my two cents anyway.